483 - Those Pants, That Hand

This week, Karen and Georgia cover Harper Lee’s investigation into Reverend Willie Maxwell. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Georgia Hardstark?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the season of green.

• 0:08Georgia Hardstark?

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• 0:13Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Big savings and more gifts than ever before.

• 0:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, when you buy a select Ryobi kit, you get another tool free.

• 0:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Find your green at ryobitoles.com/murder.

• 0:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's R-Y-O-B-I. Ryobi, only at The Home Depot.

• 0:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 0:39Speaker 02

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• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello. And welcome. To my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. And we're here to podcast for you once again. We're gonna do it every week if we can, if the mood strikes us. If we have the sweaters with the colors that are needed to combine, be together, magenta and lime green. What would you call this lime green? Yeah. Right? Yeah. With a little forest? Yeah. It's loud. It's very loud. Well, it looks like a nice 60s polyester blouse. Okay. No? No, it's fucking fast fashioned. Is it? No, I mean, no. Fast fashion with a retro bent? Yeah, yeah. Speaking of retro and bent, I finally did it. I watched Pride and Prejudice.

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow. How'd it go? It went great. Vince was at a wrestling show, is alone on like a Saturday night with my wine. What do I do? I had caught up with The Valley and so I was like, oh, holy shit, I'm gonna do this. I, there was not a moment I was bored. Right? Not a fucking moment. Right? Yes. Which is like, that's all I ask for in a movie. Yep. You know? Yes. I wanted more. I fucking loved it. So good. It was really fucking good. Right? Yeah. It just really gets undersold as like a chick flick or like a, oh, Jane Austen, where it's like, it's such a gorgeous unfurling of a film in front of you. I know Vince would have loved it if you were at home. Like, I didn't need to watch it without him at all. So good.

• 3:53Georgia Hardstark?

  In fact, it probably would have been better with him. I don't know. What was your favorite part? The first dance, dance party. When he slams her and then she slams him back? When they first go in, yeah. And it's like, ah, and then it's also like, I know that actress. I know that actress. I think every actress that's famous today. Yes. You know them. Yeah. The mom, could have done without her. Brenda Bledland? Well, that was the idea. I know, I know. That's like the point, but. Worst mom ever. Yeah, it was, it was so. Oh, and then like, I got choked up. Actually got me, like, you know, I don't cry, but when she fucking told him off when they were on the cliff or whatever.

• 4:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I got like emotional.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  When she was like, and your dad, that was, I was supposed to take it as a compliment. You hate my family and think I'm shit.

• 4:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't believe I love you. Well, fuck you.

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, it was very, it was good.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Elizabeth Bennet. She does that in every circumstance. My favorite is also The First Dance. When she, cause I'm always like, how does one meet that type of rejection? Which everybody fears it.

• 4:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:54Karen Kilgariff?

  How would you do that with a smile on your face and be like, even if their partner was a little plain or whatever, whatever the line is, and then walk away where it's just like you.

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Devastating.

• 5:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially if it was Matthew McFadden. You'd just be like, huh, how come I'm not doing it?

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Devastating.

• 5:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead, she's, she's kinda like.

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Whatever. Yeah.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  She has so many good lines. Wait, here's my other best favorite part.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 5:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Because also you should watch Vera, the British detective show, because the mother plays a detective.

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. And I also need to watch the other versions of Pride and Prejudice, like, cause everyone had a fucking opinion.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not mad at them about this, I guess, for once in my life.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, got it.

• 5:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So I want to watch the other versions and find out.

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. The series is great because it's a binge that then lasts. It's not just an hour and a half.

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like however many episodes. Can't remember. And that's the great one with Colin Firth.

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 5:45Karen Kilgariff?

  He plays a different kind of Mr. Darcy though.

• 5:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know if I'd be attracted to Colin Firth.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's my feeling.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But Matthew McFadden's coming across that field at you.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't think I'd be attracted to him, ever.

• 5:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And then?

• 5:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Those pants. Fucking, ah.

• 6:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Those pants, that hand.

• 6:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But how about Dame Judi Dench's star turn?

• 6:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, when she comes to that house to be like, you tell me if you are marrying my nephew.

• 6:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 6:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It can't be born. It can't be born.

• 6:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's just like, I've got this.

• 6:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a perfect movie.

• 6:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's good. I enjoyed it.

• 6:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so glad.

• 6:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So we're here. So here we are.

• 6:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, stop acting mad, cause I'm so glad. I'm so excited. Also, it's one of those ones where like, it's a go back to because there's things you missed. Oh, also, we're not even mentioning what. Perfectly Prepared Potatoes, that part where the priest cousin comes and that guy.

• 6:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, the weird cousin was so good.

• 6:40Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the, and do you remember, do you know, he was from season two White Lotus, the bad gay? That Jennifer Coolidge was hanging out with.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Same actor.

• 6:48Georgia Hardstark?

  He's an eighties actor too, though, isn't he?

• 6:50Karen Kilgariff?

  He's been around for a long time, but he is like, one of the best of the best.

• 6:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. He's the bad gay, yeah.

• 6:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, Tom.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  These bad gays, that's a line from it, we're not fucking.

• 6:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's Jennifer Coolidge.

• 7:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Being quoted. These gays are gonna kill me.

• 7:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's good.

• 7:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I'm overjoyed.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, good. But let's, what do you have? What have you got?

• 7:11Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 7:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's move on from.

• 7:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfectly Prepared Potatoes. I won't, I'm just gonna keep misquoting the movie, which driving people who really know every word of the movie. But people on TikTok have made T-shirts with him on it.

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it says, what perfectly.

• 7:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Prepared potatoes.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Wish I could remember it, but it's like, it says, what perfectly prepared potatoes?

• 7:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 7:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's just like him looking down, like it's a fan shirt kind of.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 7:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So good.

• 7:36Speaker 05

  Can I just let you know real quick?

• 7:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  What excellent boiled potatoes is the phrase, and it's Tom Hollander.

• 7:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, Molly.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Molly, thank you. Wait, did you know what excellent boiled potatoes off the dome?

• 7:47Speaker 05

  I had to Google. If I am gonna be clean about this, yes.

• 7:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Please always be clean, there's no reason not to.

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you for that info.

• 7:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I just did it wrong eight times in a row. You get to do it wrong if you want to. What excellent boiled potatoes and what? And what a perfectly appointed room. Something like that.

• 8:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like bad small talk.

• 8:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's good.

• 8:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So good.

• 8:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so glad.

• 8:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, thank you. Thank you, guys, for fucking yelling at me until I did it. It was for my own good.

• 8:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It was for my own good.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you feel different?

• 8:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel more open-minded to movies like that.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, then I have a recommendation.

• 8:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:22Karen Kilgariff?

  There's another one, and there's a couple versions of it, and it's called Persuasion.

• 8:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, someone else mentioned that in the comments.

• 8:28Karen Kilgariff?

  The original Persuasion is so good.

• 8:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And it is one of those love stories of like, it's too late, she, she made the wrong call and she lost him forever.

• 8:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Devastating. Okay.

• 8:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But.

• 8:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But did she?

• 8:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Our Jane Austen doesn't devastate permanently.

• 8:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And it is so beautifully acted. And it's the same thing where you're in this place. It's so real.

• 8:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:48Karen Kilgariff?

  These houses, these estates they live on, whatever.

• 8:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And like what the, what it does to people, what people are like. I don't know.

• 8:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 8:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It's great.

• 8:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Vera and persuasion, I will do that.

• 8:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And you don't have to watch, you don't have to go all the way into Vera. You'll just be blown away at what an amazing actress Brenda Blethley is because she's like a completely different person and not, that mother is like the kind of mother that would say a thing that would humiliate you and the whole family in front of as many people as possible.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I have one of those.

• 9:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard.

• 9:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I've met one of those before.

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's painful.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And not even on purpose. That's, I feel like I have to say that, like, not on purpose, just that's your personality.

• 9:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It's tough.

• 9:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. She's a little, she's squeamish.

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Okay.

• 9:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, should we talk about merch for one second?

• 9:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, sure. Okay.

• 9:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh.

• 9:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's fucking hilarious this week.

• 9:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, this is very exciting.

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So we each got to design our own merch. Didn't get to, we just fucking did it. And then Nicole's like, that should be real merch. And we were like, okay. So I designed, my pitch was, hello, my name is, and then the name would be Sept because that's the one I got superintendent. I got it wrong. It was episode 465, you're kidding yourself, Sept. So hello, my name is Sept is now available as a mug and a koozie. And I have both right here with me.

• 10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello, my name is Sept with my terrible handwriting.

• 10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia's script.

• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  My actual scrawl.

• 10:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly her design. So then I also designed some merch and essentially people were saying that after the election, my, me quoting my dad who said, we just have to sally forth. Was people were really liking that online. So Nicole suggested we make shirts of it. And she's like, what do you want the shirt to look like? And so I picked up a tiny legal pad and just very quickly sketched it and said, what if it was something like this? Just like a little cartoon head of my dad saying that. And then she was like, sounds good. What if we just do it exactly the way you wrote it? So in the same vein and in the same spirit of Georgia's merch, we have T-shirts that are my hand drawn picture of my dad.

• 11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Which literally looks exactly like him.

• 11:04Georgia Hardstark?

  It does. It totally does.

• 11:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Saying we're gonna sally forth.

• 11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's a perfect shirt.

• 11:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's pretty great. I feel like for us in merch.

• 11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Karen Kilgariff?

  This is where we want to be.

• 11:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like this is, it strikes a good balance, I think.

• 11:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I think so.

• 11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This is your summer merch, guys. Bring this to the beach. I don't know.

• 11:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, you could. Do you want it on a towel?

• 11:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you go to the beach?

• 11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello, my name is Supped on a Towel. Fun.

• 11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Great idea. I actually love that.

• 11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you go to the beach?

• 11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you go? Do you like sand in your toes and in your car and in everywhere?

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Everywhere?

• 11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Everywhere. Purse.

• 11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  People are like, we do.

• 11:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, people do.

• 11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  All summer long.

• 11:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we do the rest of the Exactly Right updates while we're here?

• 11:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure, we should. We have a network and it's called the Exactly Right Podcast Network. And here are some of the updates. Well, this is a big one. MFM Animated is brand new. Nick Terry brings us the story of Peachy, the bitter little bird.

• 11:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's my favorite. I say that every fucking time. It's my favorite.

• 12:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, this one is beautiful.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It has so many. I get Peachy pulls a switchblade on me.

• 12:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's great. I mean, no spoilers.

• 12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But Georgia's physically threatened by a small bird.

• 12:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Honored to be physically threatened by Peachy.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So you can go find it on YouTube right now. It's at youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia. And there are also 70 other episodes of MFM Animated. So if you like this one, you might like the other ones too.

• 12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, please follow us on YouTube. It's very helpful. And while you're there on YouTube, we've also got full episodes of Buried Bones, This Podcast Will Kill You, and the little podcast called My Favorite Murder. There's tons of videos, guys. We're making them for you. Please go check that out. YouTube.com/ExactlyRightMedia. Thank you. The end.

• 12:46Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 12:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 12:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, "It's a raccoon at your front door", but also that they have staff that's sitting there they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in "MFM" at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 13:49Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 13:53Karen Kilgariff?

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• 14:37Karen Kilgariff?

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• 14:45Georgia Hardstark?

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• 14:50Karen Kilgariff?

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• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

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• 15:03Karen Kilgariff?

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• 15:11Georgia Hardstark?

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• 15:16Karen Kilgariff?

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• 15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need, and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

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• 15:33Georgia Hardstark?

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• 15:37Karen Kilgariff?

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• 15:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 15:45Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, so it's summer. We need some mental health time off, and so Karen's going to tell you a story this episode.

• 15:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're going to do some solo episodes.

• 15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Solos.

• 15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Get our homework done and go on vacation.

• 15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I have a story for you that the book that was written about this story, I have recommended on this show so many times. It was one of those things where I was like, well, I just read the one book and I like the one book. I did a similar thing with The Man from the Train.

• 16:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I love so much, but I also did this with Casey Sepp's book Furious Hours: Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee.

• 16:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 16:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So today I'm going to tell you about that, the case behind that book. So it starts off in the late 70s in the small town of Alexander City, Alabama, and a local literary icon has just moved to town. It's none other than Alabama native and world famous author of Tequila Mockingbird, Harper Lee. At this point, Lee has won the 1961 Pulitzer for that book, which quickly became an American classic. And Harper Lee became a household name. But instead of embracing that celebrity, she became even more private. And she bucked the literary world's expectations. She didn't capitalize off the immense success of her book and immediately cranked out a second novel. She just kind of like receded.

• 17:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So basically now 20 years have passed since To Kill a Mockingbird's publication. And Harper Lee has never indicated that she's doing anything else until now. Because Lee has come to Alexander City on a mission. She's setting up interviews throughout town and scribbling down notes all about a string of suspicious deaths and a particularly sensational murder trial that took place there in Alexander City. Harper Lee has been transfixed by this case. She tells her friends, it might be the story that pulls her out of her hiatus. She's even come up with a title for the book that she plans to write about it. It's called The Reverend. This is the story of Reverend Willie Maxwell, a black Alabama preacher

• 17:48Karen Kilgariff?

  whose family members keep dying under mysterious circumstances.

• 17:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I totally downloaded the audiobook and then didn't listen to it. So this is good for me.

• 17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a vacation listen.

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 18:01Karen Kilgariff?

  We build and build on these recommendations.

• 18:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So of course Casey Seps Furious Hours, the book all about this case, is the main source. Please order it from your local independent bookstore.

• 18:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, or get it from the library, everyone.

• 18:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Check it out. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes if you want to see what else.

• 18:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Were you quoting the poster in the library that says, "Check it out." And it has like the stack of books. Were you doing that on purpose or that just happened?

• 18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It probably came out of my childhood memory. Because it's like a stack of books. Is there a checkmark anywhere on there?

• 18:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think at the top. But it's like, because you check out books. It's like a Winkie thing.

• 18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And I think a book is flying open. A winky thing.

• 18:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a little winky thing. Hey, librarians, if you have a good check it out poster at your library, will you send us a picture of it?

• 18:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my gosh, tag, post your photos of check it out and tag us.

• 18:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you think you have the oldest check it out poster, like the most vintage, please let us see it.

• 18:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 18:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Please let us have our, like, childhood memories come back to us. Okay, nice one.

• 19:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 19:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Side content. Okay, so we begin in the summer of 1970, seven years before Harper Lee arrives in Alexander City. It is the 3rd of August, and the body of Mary Lou Maxwell, a woman in her early 40s, has just been found in her car on the side of a rural two-lane road called Highway 22, and that's just outside of Alexander City. Mary Lou's husband of 20 years is a man named Willie Maxwell, a sharply dressed, captivating man in his mid-40s, who's often described as being elegant. He's also a reverend. Willie preaches at various churches and revivals throughout the area. And author Casey Seppe writes in Furious Hours that, quote, "There wouldn't be anybody nicer to you, conversation-wise."

• 19:45Karen Kilgariff?

  People said of him, "You'd think that man came from heaven, he was so smooth."

• 19:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 19:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. So when Mary Lou is found dead, the reverend's reputation takes a huge hit, and for good reason. Her death is as suspicious as Willie's behavior. So, for example, the night Mary Lou is found dead, Willie calls the police and claims that he's worried she might have been in an accident. He then directs the police straight to her car, broken down on the side of Highway 22.

• 20:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So not just a theory.

• 20:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Karen Kilgariff?

  When the police arrive, it's obvious that Mary Lou was not in a car accident. Her vehicle shows no signs of damage. The surrounding trees are untouched, and it looks like the car has simply pulled off the highway and been parked by the side of the road. But Mary Lou's body has clearly been brutally attacked and strangled. There's blood everywhere, including on the outside of the car, which is hard to explain in a supposed crash.

• 20:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 20:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Plus, rope is found on the ground nearby, which may have been used as the murder weapon.

• 20:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 20:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It then comes to light that things were tense between Willie and Mary Lou. He'd been cheating on her with lots of different women, and at the time of her death, the Maxwells were in tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

• 20:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 20:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Then investigators get bombshell information from the couple's neighbor. Her name is Dorcas Anderson. She's in her late 20s. So Dorcas tells police around 10:00 PM on August 3rd, Mary Lou had stopped by in a panic, saying she'd just received a call that Willie was involved in a bad car accident, coming home from a preaching gig, and that he'd crashed somewhere off of Highway 22.

• 21:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 21:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So Mary Lou says to Dorcas, "I'm on my way to go get him." But suspiciously, about an hour after this, Willie comes home in a car with no visible damage. Mary Lou is not with him, and Mary Lou never comes back.

• 21:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 21:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So, all that looks bad for Willie, but it gets even worse when he immediately tries to cash in on several of the life insurance policies that he had taken out on her.

• 21:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yikes.

• 21:43Karen Kilgariff?

  At that time, it was very easy to take out life insurance policies. All you needed was a name, a birthday, a social security number, and a talent for forgery, if you're doing it behind someone's back.

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  They had machines, like cigarette machines for life insurance at the airport back then.

• 21:59Karen Kilgariff?

  At the airport.

• 22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, you just put a quarter in.

• 22:05Karen Kilgariff?

  The worst feeling.

• 22:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, what a brilliant person to think of those machines, where it's like,

• 22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 22:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You know where you get real anxious? About life and death.

• 22:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Horrible.

• 22:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, most of these policies were very cheap for Willie to file, yet they promised to pay out thousands of dollars in the event of Mary Lou's death. And some had been taken out on her right before the day she died.

• 22:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-mm.

• 22:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So before long, Willie Maxwell is charged in his wife's murder. He hires a white attorney named Tom Radney to defend him. Despite the overwhelming circumstantial evidence against Willie, he winds up being acquitted after the prosecution's key witness, who is Dorcas Anderson, changes her testimony. Suddenly, Dorcas claims she can no longer remember what happened the night that Mary Lou was killed. So, now even though the people of Alexander City are deeply suspicious of him, Willie Maxwell walks away a free man. And with Tom Radney's help, he also becomes a rich man because he is able to cash in on his dead wife's insurance policies.

• 23:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:04Karen Kilgariff?

  The insurers fully believe that Willie killed Mary Lou, so they are reluctant to pay. But when they don't, Radney files civil suits against them and ultimately forces their hand. It's unclear exactly how much Willie makes off these policies, but we do know that he gets a handful of checks that add up to thousands of dollars. And then he splits the money 50/50 with his attorney.

• 23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So... Then, like a twist from a soap opera, Dorcas Anderson's husband dies and she becomes the next Mrs. Willie Maxwell.

• 23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. See where this is going.

• 23:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Not great. So, even after the mysterious death of his wife and the suspicion he's involved, Willie Maxwell somehow manages to keep on preaching. But he has to do it out of town where the congregants are not aware of the story. Then in February of 1972, about a year and a half after Mary Lou's death, Willie's 52-year-old brother John is found dead on the side of the road about 10 miles outside of Alexandria City. And according to Casey Sep, John's cause of death is officially listed as a heart attack due to overconsumption of alcohol. But when it comes to light that Willie has taken out life insurance policies on his brother as well, locals begin to theorize that Willie forced his brother John to drink

• 24:22Karen Kilgariff?

  a lethal amount of alcohol and then left him for dead.

• 24:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. That's, how do you?

• 24:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It would be so long and horrible.

• 24:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the problem is that police can never prove that Willie Maxwell is involved. They simply don't have the evidence, which is something that the reverend's attorney hammers home when his client is taken in for questioning. All good things, most of the time, if people were fighting for people where it's like, hey, if you don't have evidence, no. But it's like, but there is evidence.

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Just not, yeah.

• 24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So Willie is never charged with any wrongdoing and because of that, the insurance companies have no choice but to, again, pay him out and they are not happy about it. You don't want the insurance companies mad at you.

• 25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I just, you can't take insurance out for whomever you want. It just feels weird.

• 25:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the 70s. Early 70s?

• 25:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Man, might as well have been the 1720s. I don't know what I'm talking about. I was only two. Okay, so then, a few months later, in September of 1972, off a highway called Route 9, the new Mrs. Reverend Willie Maxwell, Dorcas Anderson, is found dead in her car. Oh, dear. In an eerily similar way to how Mary Lou Maxwell was found. Dorcas is only 29 years old at the time, and by all accounts, she was a very healthy woman. Her autopsy notes bruises on her shoulders and elbows, as well as a cut above one of her eyes, and twigs and leaves stuck in her shoes, which could point to some sort of violence or struggle, but her death is deemed a natural one. Mm-mm. So even though Dorcas and the Reverend had only been married for about a year,

• 26:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Willie had taken out about 20 life insurance policies on his new wife, all of which were almost certainly done behind her back. Yeah, okay, he's just 20. gangbusters here. So Dorcas's loved ones are certain that the Reverend is responsible for her death, but because it's not deemed a homicide and with the case against Willie being entirely circumstantial, no charges are ever filed. So for a few years, things are quiet. The Reverend winds up marrying for a third time, and this time to a woman named Ophelia. But, little more than three years after Dorcas's death, in February of 1976, Willie's 22-year-old nephew, James Hicks, is found dead in his car off of Route 9. What the fuck?

• 26:44Karen Kilgariff?

  The same highway where Dorcas was found. Authorities to this day have never determined James's cause of death. His car and the area around it don't have any signs of damage, and an autopsy will show that James only has a tiny bit of alcohol and caffeine in his system. He has a few small cuts on his arms, legs, and chest, and one on the inside of his mouth, but they aren't the types of injuries that would kill someone. Hmm. James's widow, Mary, tells investigators she is certain Willie Maxwell is responsible. She even claims that his new wife, Ophelia, had been calling, trying to get James's social security number before he died. Come on. So police track down the two local men who tell them about their very damning interactions with the Reverend.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  One claims Willie tried to recruit him into committing a murder. The other claims that Willie admitted to killing people with pills containing some sort of poison that he would dissolve into whiskey. Mm-mm. So the police collect all that information about Willie Maxwell's activities, but they don't arrest him, probably because they would need harder evidence than just hearsay and they know this lawyer is going to be like waiting right there.

• 27:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But until then, increasingly horrified locals fear that Willie Maxwell is going to keep on getting away with murder. And then one year later, in mid 1977, Willie's 16-year-old stepdaughter Shirley Anne Ellington, Ophelia's child, is found along a nearby highway near Willie's car.

• 28:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Geez, at some point, the evidence is that everyone you freaking know dies.

• 28:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 28:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the evidence.

• 28:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Your immediate family keeps being killed.

• 28:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, but unlike the other suspicious deaths, Shirley Anne is not discovered inside the car, she's actually been crushed underneath it.

• 28:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 28:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So the police think this scene is staged because it's supposed to look like Shirley Anne died in a terrible accident while changing a tire.

• 28:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But none of the tires on the car are flat and Shirley Anne's hands are very clean, while the tools she would have been using are very dirty. That's the kind of stuff it's insulting, where it's like, you're not gonna

• 28:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 28:46Karen Kilgariff?

  even stage this with any energy, you're just gonna put all the things together and be like, it'll work again.

• 28:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because you know you can get away with it.

• 28:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. On top of that, Shirley is found about a mile from her house. It wouldn't make sense that she wouldn't just walk home instead of attempting to change a car tire.

• 29:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is now the fifth suspicious death of someone connected to and actively insured by Reverend Willie Maxwell. By this point, the Reverend has collected around $90,000 from insurers.

• 29:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 29:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Would you like to guess how much money that is? This is 1977.

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's, how much, 90?

• 29:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's accrued, it's $90,000 accrued from 1972 to 1977.

• 29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  In today's money, I'm gonna guess that is 210?

• 29:31Karen Kilgariff?

  750,000, almost a million dollars.

• 29:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I was way off.

• 29:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, when I looked at that number, I was like, whoa, but it's the 70s, which I want to tell myself was 20 years ago. So at this point, the Reverend's reputation is fully in the gutter. He is now basically, his name is like he's the local bogeyman. Everyone who knows about him can't stop talking about how he is just actively getting away with murder scot-free. Many people see him as criminal, working the system in such a way that he's able to evade the consequences for murder, and he's making money. Others need a better explanation, so they start blaming voodoo and hoodoo. There's some overlap, but they are essentially different things. In popular culture, they have been conflated for years.

• 30:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's from back in the 70s, these two terms are used interchangeably in most of the reporting that Maren found. But it is worth noting that these have been extremely misrepresented in popular culture for a long time. Voodoo is a formal religion. It blends traditional West African religious practices with Catholicism. Whereas hoodoo is the African-American tradition of folk magic and medicine strongly associated with the South. So, we don't know if Willie practices either hoodoo or voodoo. But as author Casey Sep explains in Furious Hours, historically, it wouldn't have been that unusual for a black Christian preacher in the rural South to be echoing elements of voodoo in his ministry.

• 31:02Karen Kilgariff?

  In these same rural areas, folk medicine associated with hoodoo, like herbal remedies and poultices, often filled in critical healthcare gaps for both black and white clientele. So, by the 1970s, voodoo and hoodoo have been derided and condemned by racist whites for so long. The popular culture comes to misunderstand them as just creepy and nefarious. All that trickles down to the people in Willie Maxwell's world. So they start making all kinds of wild claims about the Reverend having supernatural powers. One rumor claimed that he could turn into a black cat at will. They're just trying to explain how somebody could be getting away with this and just like, basically, kind of scamming the justice system.

• 31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But ultimately, it's because the insurance policies give him money to pay for a lawyer that's fighting for him. It's like, that's how the rich always never go to jail. Totally. I'll tell you a thing or two about it. So in June of 1977, Willie Maxwell makes the bold choice of attending his stepdaughter Shirley Ann Ellington's funeral. About 300 people attend this ceremony. One of the mourners is Shirley Ann's 36-year-old uncle, a man named Robert Burns. Robert Burns is known as a very decent man. He's a loving dad. He is a veteran from the Vietnam War. He's a very hard-working, long-haul trucker, a very loyal husband to his wife of eight years, Vera.

• 32:29Karen Kilgariff?

  But Robert is also very close with his niece Shirley Ann. So during this funeral, he stuns everyone in attendance by pulling out a gun and in front of hundreds of witnesses, shooting 52-year-old Reverend Willie Maxwell in the head, killing him.

• 32:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 32:45Karen Kilgariff?

  At the funeral.

• 32:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man. I wasn't expecting that.

• 32:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a real turn midpoint.

• 32:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, my God.

• 32:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So the Reverend's buried one week later. Casey Sep reports, quote, "His funeral was one of the most well-attended in this part of Alabama. What people say about why they went is to make sure that he was really dead."

• 33:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 33:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So they could see him in the casket and verify that he was actually dead because they didn't think he could be killed.

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that's just, wow. Imagine your beloved niece and you just know who did it and you know he's going to get away with it.

• 33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And you saw it coming.

• 33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And he did it to those other women where it's like Dorcas was just a witness and suddenly she's probably got love bombed and pulled in.

• 33:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible. So now in death, Reverend Willie Maxwell's notoriety has expanded far beyond Alabama, attracting reporters from all over the country. And this is when Harper Lee reads about the Reverend's murder in the newspaper and of course immediately is like, what is going on? I have to know more. So it's a well-established fact that Harper Lee... Is a true crime fanatic. Casey Sepp mentions a quote Lee once gave about the infamous ax murderer, Lizzie Borden, where she jokingly empathizes with her, saying, quote, "I know exactly why she did it. Anyone burdened with long petticoats and having had mutton soup for breakfast on a day like that was bound to have murdered somebody before sundown." Yikes. That's our girl. That's our Harper Lee. She is just like- Got it. Salty. She's a little salty.

• 34:20Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a salty lady, played by Sandra Bullock in the movie, the Truman Capote movie. Oh, right. Interesting. So we know Harper Lee is deeply interested in the themes that lie at the heart of the Reverend's story, things like southernness, race, vigilantism, and the American justice system, all those themes that ran through To Kill a Mockingbird. So it's not too surprising that she decides to move down to the Alexander City area so that she can immerse herself in the Reverend's world. While living there, Lee interviews several people close to the case. She even develops a friendship with Willie's longtime attorney, Tom Radney, who, in another surprising turn in this saga, winds up defending Robert Burns after he's charged with the Reverend's murder. Oh, man, this guy's just like, "I'll take anyone."

• 35:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I think it's like, is he the only lawyer for a thousand miles? Maybe. Is it that feeling? He's the only one to take black clients, maybe. Maybe. Could it be that he was like, "I was a part of this, and this horrible thing happened, and now I need to be a part of this?" Yeah, like atonement, kind of? Yeah, maybe. Balance the scales. Although his client is the one that got murdered. Right. It's an interesting turn. Yeah. So Tom Radney exchanges extensive notes with Harper Lee, likely with the hopes that she'll write another bestseller that highlights him as a particularly savvy lawyer. They also have some fun together. Years later, Tom Radney's wife, Madeline, will describe Harper Lee this way. She'll say, quote, "I didn't spend nearly as much time with her

• 35:46Karen Kilgariff?

  as the men did. Harper Lee smoked and drank, and she had several four-letter words she contribute to any conversation." I love that. And this, these are like, southern women who like, we will go out on the porch while you men talk and happily, I guess. You stay there too. Sorry, mid quote. But she had this really cute wit about her. She was smart and I enjoyed just listening to her, just sitting back and listening to the conversation. So she liked it. She was a fan. So when Robert Burns' trial kicks off in September of 77, he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. So Tom Radney is now tasked with one of the most difficult jobs an attorney can have. He not only has to prove Robert's insanity at the

• 36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  time of the Reverend's death, which is very hard to do in court, but he also has to defend a client who killed his victim in front of 300 witnesses. Right. Like, that's not in question. Right. So there's no denying that part. But Radney is, of course, a very good lawyer. Even though PTSD isn't something most people understood at the time, like in the 70s, he relates Robert Burns' temporary insanity in the courtroom to the trauma he endured while serving in Vietnam. Wow. At the same time, Radney plays on the public's anxieties around the power of voodoo, and he uses it to paint the Reverend as basically Robert's complete opposite. As Casey Sett

• 37:11Karen Kilgariff?

  puts it, "Radney establishes Willie Maxwell as, quote, 'the witchiest witch doctor and the voodoo-iest voodoo priest the South has ever known. A man so mysteriously powerful that no force of law could touch him, and so feared that no neighbor would look him in the eye.'" So reporting from this time seems to take Tom Radney's narrative here and run with it, with Willie Maxwell becoming known as, quote, "the voodoo priest in some faraway newspapers." Okay. So, it's a bit hypocritical. Yeah. To take a turn like that. It is. But, maybe it's like, hey, I was there in the front lines and like, got involved with this guy. I don't know. Totally. So the trial lasts two days. Robert Burns is acquitted of the Reverend's murder.

• 37:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. Because the jury ultimately accepts his insanity defense. The courtroom reportedly bursts into applause at the verdict. Yeah. And that same year, the town of Alexander City names Tom Radney the man of the year. Wow. Yep. And just so you get a full sense of Tom Radney, because this is like, we're just making comments on this kind of singular thing, where it's like, he of course probably had 100 other clients and was, you know, whatever. So everyone knows Attorney Tom Radney went on to serve in the Alabama State Legislature, and he was a vocal advocate for civil rights. He passed in 2011 at age 79 after a long illness. So, he was the real deal in that way of, like you said, the only lawyer to represent black

• 38:39Karen Kilgariff?

  people at that time, or whatever it was he was doing, he kept doing it after all of this, which is good to know. And apparently, Robert Burns is still alive and in his 80s. No way. Yeah. And he talked to Casey Sep as she wrote her book, and he's been quoted by reporters a few times over the past decade. That's so interesting. So with that, the story of Reverend Willie Maxwell comes to a close, but we're still not at the end of our story, because the enduring mystery here involves Harper Lee, who despite all evidence suggesting that she was writing a book on this case, never publishes one. In fact, nothing she wrote in this era has ever surfaced, at least not publicly. So while she was in Alexander City, Harper Lee conducted interviews, including with

• 39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Robert Burns after his acquittal, which, imagine what that must have been like. She took copious notes, she even sent pages of writing to Tom Radney for him to review. And later, Harper Lee's sister Louise will claim that she read the entire manuscript of the book about this case. And Louise reportedly declared that book to be, quote, "better than in cold blood." So it was written? Yeah. Oh my god. I mean, would her sister lie? Probably not. No. Because she'd want her sister to get the credit of like, oh no, she did it. Yeah. And it was better than in cold blood. Which, speaking of, we know Harper Lee was a very skilled reporter, and she proved this when she helped Truman Capote, her childhood friend from Monroeville, Alabama, report

• 40:06Karen Kilgariff?

  on the death of the clutter family in 1950s Kansas, the subject of the book In Cold Blood. And that book is a hugely important piece of American literature that helped legitimize true crime as a genre. But we also know Harper Lee's feelings about it were very complicated, mostly because of how close Truman Capote got with one of the murderers in that case. And so author Casey Sep- Noted, quote, "While on the one hand Harper Lee seems to have been out to write her own in cold blood, there were very distinct ways in which she was trying to do something different. She had real concerns about Capote's book, about journalistic ethics, the role of the reporter, and the way true crime writers can come to sympathize with their subjects." Interesting.

• 40:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So Harper Lee once even wrote to Truman Capote's fact checker at The New Yorker, expressing her fears that while they were working on In Cold Blood, it was, in Harper Lee's words, quote, "more novelistic than nonfiction." She'd also written a letter to Gregory Peck, who played Atticus Finch in the movie version of To Kill a Mockingbird, and she said to him, quote, "My agent wants pure gore and autopsies. My publisher wants another bestseller, and I want a clear conscience in that I haven't defrauded the reader." Wow. Yeah. Chutzpah and, what's the word I'm looking for? Character? Ethics. Yep. Yeah. Good standards, like actually trying to stand for something. Yeah.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, it makes it a little easier. She'd already gone through something before where it's like, probably as they went through the In Cold Blood process, it was like, is this right or wrong? Right. This doesn't feel good, but I didn't say anything at the time. Yeah. She's the researcher. She doesn't get to tell the author what to do. Totally. But then, but she gets to make her own adjustments. Yeah. Okay, so, there's theories on why her book never saw the light of day. That's one of them, that she, like, the ethics of it. Some have also speculated she might have been hamstrung by the fear of having to follow up To Kill a Mockingbird, which, good lord. I mean, stay sexy and don't get murdered. How do we follow that up? We haven't, and we don't. Others think she may have had really bad writer's block, or that her publishers didn't like the idea of a book that centered around the lives of black people.

• 42:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Ultimately, we don't know what happened to Harper Lee's writing about the Reverend Willie Maxwell case, and she will never get a chance to show us or tell us herself. In 2016, at the age of 89, Harper Lee passed away in her sleep. Someday, someone could discover Harper Lee's work from Alexander City. Yeah. After all, many thought that she'd never publish anything after To Kill a Mockingbird, but then her book, Ghosts of Watchmen, was released shortly before her death. Mm-hmm. In the meantime, if you live in or near Alexander City, please go check the dusty corners of your grandparents' attics because in 2009, a local man bought an encyclopedia from a Salvation Army,

• 43:00Karen Kilgariff?

  and he found a handwritten note from Harper Lee buried inside. What? We don't know who the note was written to. It's dated June 11, 1978, and it says this, quote, "You simply can't beat the people in Alexander City for their warmth, kindness, and hospitality. If I fall flat on my face with this book, I won't be terribly disappointed because of knowing that the time I spent with you was not time lost, but friends gained. This is not remotely goodbye, because I'll be coming back until doomsday." And that is the story of the alleged murders and murder of Willie Maxwell and the lingering mystery around Harper Lee's The Reverend. Wow. Okay, now I fucking know that story. Yeah, you do. Thank you.

• 43:46Karen Kilgariff?

  What happened to the book? The idea that she left a note in an encyclopedia for somebody to discover 30 or 40 years later? Yeah. Is so badass of her. Yeah, she knew. That feeling. Yeah. She's like, "I need to write a love letter to the city, but if I do it officially, they'll try to give me something and make it about me." Right. And I just want the actual people to know. Yeah. So here. Ooh, God. So good. That's so good, and yeah. She wants a reader to know. Yeah, and they found treasure. Yeah, everyone look in your attics and go buy things at garage sales and... If you live in Alexander City, will you please send us any of your theorized Harper Lee? Yeah. Treasure? It's like, "I found this manuscript in my grandma's nightstand."

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That was incredible. Great job for a solo. It had everything you'd want and more.

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how we do these solo episodes. We provide, provide, provide, and we get the hell out.

• 44:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we fucking sometimes need a moment.

• 44:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you understand this?

• 44:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't understand why it's been nine and a half years.

• 44:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Nonstop podcasting.

• 44:50Georgia Hardstark?

  A lot of podcasting. We love it. We're not complaining.

• 44:54Karen Kilgariff?

  We do love it.

• 44:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We're so grateful.

• 44:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But man, it's nice to just have like two weeks, not worry about stuff.

• 45:00Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, you do it from your job.

• 45:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 45:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So we're doing it from our job.

• 45:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, look, people, we just took a week off. I mean, we do this sometimes.

• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But definitely, any complaints, please write to [BLEEP].

• 45:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Cut that out. Can you bleep that?

• 45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I really.

• 45:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Email address.

• 45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 45:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 45:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 45:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 46:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 46:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 46:26Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Some people know exactly what car they want before they start shopping.

• 46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And for the rest of us, there's Cars.com.

• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Cars.com helps take some of the guesswork out of car shopping with expert reviews, guides, recommendations, and side-by-side comparisons to help narrow down your options.

• 46:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Once you know what you're looking for, you can search for the features that actually matter to you, like blind spot monitoring, smartphone integration, or automatic emergency braking.

• 46:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You can also shop based on your budget with financing tools that show real rates and monthly payments, so you can have a clearer idea of what you can afford.

• 47:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Their deal ratings tags let you see how the price compares with similar vehicles, so you can feel more confident about buying your car.

• 47:09Karen Kilgariff?

  From research to shopping to finding the right fit, Cars.com gives you what you need to choose your next car confidently.

• 47:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Start your search at Cars.com.

• 47:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 47:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 47:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 47:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 47:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 47:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 47:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 48:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 48:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.

• 48:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 48:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder. Goodbye.

• 48:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, well, this is a special occasion because we're starting to do this thing. We've been doing our hurraies where everybody writes them in on the show. But now...

• 48:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Today...

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  We're doing it in the car.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  We're doing honking hurraies.

• 48:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 48:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So, this is presented by Hyundai. We really appreciate you bringing us here and giving us this lush car to sit in.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  The gorgeous Ioniq 5.

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we go.

• 49:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I drive this.

• 49:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This is actually Karen's car.

• 49:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to go first or first?

• 49:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Okay. "My hooray is that today is my one-year sober anniversary."

• 49:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 49:10Georgia Hardstark?

  "It's been pretty hard, given the state of things, but facing it sober means I can do the work that needs to be done."

• 49:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That's from Instagram from @avongale.

• 49:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Avon Gale's doing it even in the midst of full global meltdown.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 49:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's important work.

• 49:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true. It's a hard time to be doing it, but you're doing it.

• 49:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Good work. So, the subject line of this email is "Hooray, I'm a P.I."

• 49:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 49:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. It says, "My hooray is that I just completed my associate's degree in biology and got a job as a private investigator." Those are different.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so cool, though.

• 49:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It is very... This is a person who's living the full range of life.

• 49:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Multifaceted.

• 49:46Karen Kilgariff?

  "I've been listening since I was 14. I'm now 21."

• 49:49Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 49:50Karen Kilgariff?

  How?

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Why?

• 49:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that math, right? "And working..." It's like, liar. "And working on my bachelor's degree in forensic science."

• 49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:59Karen Kilgariff?

  "Thank you for helping me find my future career, hopefully working in DNA testing." There was no names signed on this, but Molly, our producer Molly, has a theory that they left their name off because they're a P.I.

• 50:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, because they're smart. That is so badass.

• 50:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, amazing job.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job.

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Very cool.

• 50:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. This is an email. It says, "Tonight, I'm sitting crisscross applesauce on the floor of my new home. Folding laundry well, my future husband and the love of my life is putting our baby girl to sleep."

• 50:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Two different people?

• 50:33Karen Kilgariff?

  No questions. Sorry, sorry.

• 50:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So many people have thanked you over the years for your kindness and your advocacy and your willingness to talk about mental health. So I am just another one in the bunch, but it's a large part because of you and because of this community that I made it here and that my children are here. Hooray. Melanie. Heart emoji. And then it says, "P.S. My husband suggested naming our next child, son, after his father, Gary."

• 50:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Baby Gary.

• 51:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Baby Gary. It says, "I simply cannot. LOL."

• 51:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I think if you name your child Gary, we have merch for you. There is merch waiting for you.

• 51:08Georgia Hardstark?

  If you send us the birth certificate and proof

• 51:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  that you named your child Gary.

• 51:12Karen Kilgariff?

  We need pictures of the face.

• 51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:14Karen Kilgariff?

  We need pictures of the feet.

• 51:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And the birth.

• 51:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. This email, the subject line is, "Hooray: A Dog, a Dude, and England." And it says, "Hiya. After 33 years of being a hopeless, non-romantic, last year against all odds, I somehow met and fell for a sweet, charmingly befuddled Englishman and fellow teacher living in Tucson, Arizona."

• 51:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 51:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So naturally, after only a few months of dating, he told me he decided to move back to the UK at the end of the school year. Well, cut to the hooray. I packed up most of my life and moved to England this past New Year's Eve.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  While it turns out that teaching is brutally hard on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm loving building a little British life with this kind and unexpected man. But the real hooray? I'm writing this from the airport on my way back to the States to reunite with my dog, my best friend of nearly nine years, to finally bring him back across the pond with me. You'd not believe the hoops required to move a dog to the UK. But I'm endlessly grateful to my wonderful sister for taking care of my Henry while I figured it all out. Stay sexy and choose adventure over pragmatism every now and then. Katie.

• 52:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that. I want to have a little British life.

• 52:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Build that British life. Fill it with scones and befundlement.

• 52:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this is from her email. "Hi, my MFM queens. My hooray is that March marked four years being a registered nurse."

• 52:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 52:38Georgia Hardstark?

  "Before my nursing career, I was a teacher for four years and slowly fell into a deep depression. In 2018, I made the decision to go back to school for nursing, and I haven't looked back since. Now I have four years in as an RN, and I'm happier than ever. It's never too late to change your life around. Hooray, Christina."

• 52:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, Christina.

• 52:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's so true.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Never too late.

• 53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 53:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, if she just becomes a stand-up comedian, now she's done every job in my family.

• 53:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and fireman.

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 53:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. This is a combo because it's a comment on episode 479, No Bangs. They also fold "hooray" in here. It's from Instagram, and it says, "Going through a really hard phase of life, but the joy from my kids is getting me through it. I got them new PJs the other day, and my two-year-old goes, 'Dinosaurs, yay.'" I could have cried. So, "hooray for dinosaurs and amazing little humans."

• 53:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's @DShiveLeo7.

• 53:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so sweet.

• 53:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's so sweet.

• 53:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Imagine having little children that bring you joy.

• 53:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-mm.

• 53:40Georgia Hardstark?

  What's that like?

• 53:41Karen Kilgariff?

  What are we talking about?

• 53:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that it?

• 53:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's it.

• 53:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 53:44Karen Kilgariff?

  We've done it.

• 53:45Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, thank you Hyundai, and thank you listeners for sending in your "hoorays."

• 53:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 53:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 53:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 53:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ahhh!

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin. Email your hometowns to [email protected]. Follow the show on Instagram at @myfavoritemurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 54:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the season of green.

• 54:39Georgia Hardstark?

  This year, Ryobi has the deals you've been waiting for and the perfect gift for everyone on your list.

• 54:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Stick vacuums for that post-holiday mess, leaf blowers for tidying up the yard, speakers, fans, drills, nailers, and even snow blowers. Ryobi has it all.

• 54:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Big savings and more gifts than ever before.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, when you buy a select Ryobi kit, you get another tool free.

• 55:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Find your green at ryobitoles.com/murder. That's R-Y-O-B-I, Ryobi. Only at The Home Depot.

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 56:06Speaker 03

  This is an advertisement for Zolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 56:10Speaker 06

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