This Is Why Your Relationship Won’t Last [MASTERCLASS] EP 1314

Today’s episode is a masterclass around relationships. Three experts on love & relationships share their perspectives and advice for why your relationships aren’t working out the way you want and all the things to look for in a compatible partner. In this episode, Faith Jenkins, attorney & author, elaborates on the main causes of divorce and shows us how we can better understand our partner’s love language. James Sexton, divorce lawyer & author, teaches how we can solve the problems in our relationships and not be victimized by the idea of divorce. Lori Gottlieb, psychotherapist & author, shares the truth about finding love and why its so important to embrace change in your relationship. For more, go to lewishowes.com/1314Full Episodes:Faith Jenkins: https://link.chtbl.com/1221-podJames Sexton: https://link.chtbl.com/626-podLori Gottlieb: https://link.chtbl.com/1191-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Faith Jenkins?

  Everybody wants to be loved in a different way and it may change over time. So you're constantly evolving and a part of your job as a good partner is to find out, how does this person want to be loved?

• 0:13Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:37Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in.

• 0:55Lewis Howes?

  What about the subtle red flags that you, maybe you saw over time, but you didn't take action on and you realized, oh, that was actually a much bigger flag than, but it was subtle, like I let it kind of slip. What are those subtle red flags that people should be looking out for?

• 1:11Faith Jenkins?

  If you tell me you're a vegan.

• 1:13Lewis Howes?

  And you eat meat.

• 1:14Faith Jenkins?

  And I see you on Snapchat eating some wings. You may think that's a small lie, right? But what does it say about that person? It's saying that for some reason, they feel that they need to, they can't be their true selves with you.

• 1:30Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:30Faith Jenkins?

  They're trying to project someone who they think may impress you and it's not really who they are. So when you see those subtle things that you don't understand, well, why didn't this person just be true and honest with me about this? This was a small thing. How do you think they're going to handle the big things? So I actually look at those little things. What kind of digital footprint are people leaving online? On their social media? What do they think is funny? I remember once um someone wanted to set me up on a blind date with an actor.

• 2:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 2:12Faith Jenkins?

  Here in LA and I looked at him, he was, I'm sure he had no shortage of women.

• 2:17Lewis Howes?

  Opportunities, yeah.

• 2:19Faith Jenkins?

  To to to date him and he'd reached out to a person. Who was a, he knew was a mutual friend and said, you know, I'd I'd like to meet Faith, would you set me up with her? Well, I went and looked on his social media.

• 2:33Faith Jenkins?

  And he had a joke that he'd put on his social media that I thought was really crude. And that I didn't think was funny, but he thought it was funny. But in that moment, I said, I I'm not gonna go out on a date with him.

• 2:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 2:50Faith Jenkins?

  Some people may think, wow, you didn't even give him a chance, you didn't even, again, I know myself now. I know myself and I know that when I date somebody, even what they put out publicly on their social media, that's a reflection of me, that's a reflection of our relationship. That's a reflection of all those things. You may think that joke was small, but to me, it represented a bigger picture of what I thought would be incompatibility.

• 3:13Lewis Howes?

  How important is compatibility versus connection? And chemistry of the three, connection, chemistry, compatibility, which one is most important in your mind?

• 3:25Faith Jenkins?

  You need all three.

• 3:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Faith Jenkins?

  When I think about compatibility. I think about not just making a decision about where you are now in your life. Because over time, when you get into a relationship. As time goes on, people are going to change.

• 3:45Faith Jenkins?

  When you lose a job or you get a new job, you have children, you don't have children, you go through um certain stressful situations with your family, your health. All of these things in life. They continue to change us and shape us into who we are. So when I think about compatibility, I think about a person who is committed to a certain level of growth. You are not just going together in the future, you are growing together.

• 4:14Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, yes.

• 4:15Faith Jenkins?

  And uh so that love has to be about being committed to the same commitment and a certain level of growth.

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  When someone wants to continue growing and developing himself and the other person doesn't want to, what happens in a relationship or a marriage when when they're different there?

• 4:35Faith Jenkins?

  It's easy to fall in love, I think.

• 4:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Faith Jenkins?

  I think it takes work to stay there.

• 4:40Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:41Faith Jenkins?

  And so one example, I had a couple come into divorce court. And the wife said, you know, initially, our our marriage was great, like most marriages. But over time, uh he started uh saying things to me that would really hurt my feelings. I gained weight, I gained fifteen, twenty pounds over the last couple of years. And he would comment on my weight. And um we were initially committed to just building each other up. And even when we had criticism to share with each other, we were always constructive. And we always thought, how can I say this in the most loving way? And so she said she continued to grow in that area, but he didn't.

• 5:22Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 5:23Faith Jenkins?

  And I turned to him and I said, so what happened? He said, well, I'm I'm just speaking the truth. I said, would you ever say to a stranger the things that you're saying to your wife? This is supposed to be your your best friend, he worked in a restaurant. I said, would you ever say those things to a patron in your restaurant? The things that you're saying to your wife? He said, I don't believe in divorce, we're Christians, we don't get divorced. I said, really, what does God say about love? You're a Christian, what does God say about love? Love is kind.

• 5:50Lewis Howes?

  Love is patient.

• 5:51Faith Jenkins?

  Love is patient. Love doesn't envy, love certainly certainly doesn't try to tear the other person down. So the commitment to that growth.

• 6:04Faith Jenkins?

  It it it really shows up in the long term, in the longevity of the relationship.

• 6:10Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 6:11Faith Jenkins?

  And if someone's not committed, again, you have to protect your peace. I would never advise staying in a relationship where you are being uh e- emotionally abused and disrespected. Because I'm gonna tell you what happens. It breaks my heart to see people come in and they've been in these relationships for so long where they have been repeatedly dishonored.

• 6:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:36Faith Jenkins?

  You know why? Because over time, when people have been repeatedly disrespected and dishonored, it becomes normal to them. It becomes a part familiar. And they in turn start to think they've been dishonored so much that they are not indeed worthy of honor. Because they've been dishonored repeatedly. Pain will subside over i- in time after you leave, if you do the work, but it will always be there if you stay in that type of situation.

• 7:08Lewis Howes?

  What would you say are the main causes of divorce then? Is it cheating? Is it disrespect? Is it a lack of growth? Is it foul play, emotional abuse? What what are the main causes you see?

• 7:18Faith Jenkins?

  People not being committed to the same commitment.

• 7:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:21Faith Jenkins?

  And that is the um the growth, the love, the respect. Finding out how your partner wants to be loved. Because everybody wants to be loved in a different way and it may change over time. So you're constantly evolving. And a part of your job as a good partner is to find out how does this person wanna be loved? If you stop doing all of those things, it's like if you're, if you maintain and you take care of your yard, what are the things you do to take care of your yard? You have to mow the lawn, take care of the grass, fertilize it, pull out the weeds, all of those things to keep the yard looking great, to keep it growing. There're gonna be seasons.

• 8:02Faith Jenkins?

  There're gonna be seasons. It may be dry one season, it may, it may be a rainy season, you're gonna go through the storms. But just like in life, the the seasons are gonna change, but what are you doing to maintain throughout all of those things? Being committed to doing the work to maintain.

• 8:19Faith Jenkins?

  The relationship throughout the seasons is what speaks to success. And I see the opposite end of that.

• 8:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:27Faith Jenkins?

  Because at no point can you just think that being on autopilot.

• 8:32Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna make it last, yeah.

• 8:34Faith Jenkins?

  Moving forward.

• 8:34Lewis Howes?

  Right. There's a book obviously called the love, uh, I think it's the Five Love Languages.

• 8:38Faith Jenkins?

  Yes, I love that book.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  And um, I think it's such a powerful place to even just have a conversation with a partner in when you're dating. And to take the love language test to see, does this person, do I like giving love in the way this person likes receiving love? I did this test with my, my girlfriend and I did it at the same time. I wish I would have done this in previous relationships. This isn't the end all be all. This isn't like if you have this in a perfect alignment, your relationship's gonna work out. But I think it's a great indicator of minimizing stress. When you learn these things and I realize that we have the exact same order of how we like to receive love based on the test we took. So we both like receiving love the same way, which means we both like giving love in the same way.

• 9:23Lewis Howes?

  Whereas in previous relationships, I didn't ask them, how do you really like to receive love? And they didn't ask me, you know, we both didn't really do the test and, and, and go through that, that, that uh, process. And over time, I remember feeling like, oh, they really like when I do certain things that I'm not comfortable doing. Or it's not my natural go-to. It's more of a strain and it's harder for me to think of and remember to do certain things. And vice versa. They didn't like doing certain things that I like to be, I like being touched and you know, told some nice things and they wanted to keep their hands to themselves. They didn't want, whatever it was.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  And I was like, man, just like if people couldn't get in alignment on that. And at least in a couple areas, I think it would make it much smoother in the process. And there's a lot of different things out there that people can do about that, but how important is that, do you think, figuring out? The love language of your partner before you get married.

• 10:18Faith Jenkins?

  It's a part of the service.

• 10:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:20Faith Jenkins?

  That comes with being in a relationship and being in a marriage.

• 10:23Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:23Faith Jenkins?

  Big part of marriage is service.

• 10:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 10:26Faith Jenkins?

  And sacrifice.

• 10:27Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:27Faith Jenkins?

  And a part of the service is how am I going to serve my partner?

• 10:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 10:34Faith Jenkins?

  Um, I remember when my husband and I went through our premarital counseling and we did pre-engagement counseling even.

• 10:42Lewis Howes?

  So before you got engaged, you did counseling?

• 10:44Faith Jenkins?

  Yes.

• 10:45Lewis Howes?

  To see, is it worth getting engaged? And then when you're engaged, you got counseling to see like.

• 10:49Faith Jenkins?

  Absolutely. See, that's how serious I was about it.

• 10:51Lewis Howes?

  I think that's, I remember before my, my current girlfriend, I remember thinking to myself, gosh, I would love to get in a relationship and start therapy. Like when everything's good.

• 11:01Faith Jenkins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:01Lewis Howes?

  And see, are we in alignment? And like diffuse some of the things that could be challenged in the future. And we've been doing that in our own way, like she's got her own therapist, I've got mine and we're starting to do stuff together. And it's uncomfortable to have certain conversations, but it's so freeing at the same time. So anyways, you, you did this because you were so serious about it. And what did you learn about doing counseling, pre-engagement, engagement, before marriage as well?

• 11:27Faith Jenkins?

  Well, I thought if I get engaged and then I go to premarital counseling, I've already made the decision to get married.

• 11:36Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:37Faith Jenkins?

  So I wanted to know, because remember, you're talking about, I talked about the fear of the unknown.

• 11:43Lewis Howes?

  You really know.

• 11:44Faith Jenkins?

  So I wanted to minimize the unknowns.

• 11:47Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:49Faith Jenkins?

  So I thought, I, I have all these questions and I think I'm asking the right questions, but I want to know, is there something that I'm not asking? Is there another area that we need to explore? Is there something else we need to talk about before we got engaged? Because we were talking about at that point, getting married. You know, so often when people get engaged and they announce it and they share with the world and the invitations are going out and then, oh, wait, wait, we need to do our premarital counseling. And you may find out something that you don't like and are you gonna?

• 12:19Lewis Howes?

  Uh-oh, whoopsie.

• 12:20Faith Jenkins?

  Right.

• 12:20Lewis Howes?

  Too late.

• 12:21Faith Jenkins?

  What are you gonna do?

• 12:22Lewis Howes?

  A lot of people feel the pressure. I've heard so many stories of people gotten divorced, I'm, I'm sure you've heard this too, where the woman or the man said, I knew on my wedding day, this wasn't the right fit. It wasn't the right fit. Have you heard that before?

• 12:34Faith Jenkins?

  Yes, they knew.

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  And they still go through with it. I'm like, why do you put yourself through this?

• 12:40Faith Jenkins?

  They don't want to be embarrassed.

• 12:42Lewis Howes?

  But then two, five years later.

• 12:44Faith Jenkins?

  Yeah.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  You went through just pain. And sadness and you settled for something that wasn't the right thing.

• 12:50Faith Jenkins?

  People think.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  And I'm not judging people here because I've made a ton of my own mistakes.

• 12:54Faith Jenkins?

  We've all made those mistakes. We had to learn the hard way. Some people, you know, you have to learn the hard way and all opportunities for you to grow, but.

• 13:02Lewis Howes?

  But you can minimize that based on. And maybe you go through all the premarital counseling and the pre-engagement and you still doesn't work out for whatever reason, but at least you hopefully.

• 13:11Faith Jenkins?

  You did your due diligence.

• 13:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 13:13Faith Jenkins?

  You did your due diligence. So you can go in with a little more confidence because of your due diligence.

• 13:17Lewis Howes?

  And if something when it came up on one of these conversations that you're like, that's completely out of alignment with what I want, you could have. Figured out, is there a solution to this? If not, then maybe you wouldn't have gotten married.

• 13:28Faith Jenkins?

  There are two things here about what you just said, which is, which is great because. Some people think that by getting married, it's going to change something or change a person. Or things will be different. Uh, the only thing a wedding will change is maybe your last name. They weddings will break the bank, but they will not break bad habits.

• 13:55Faith Jenkins?

  So you can expect when you get married, you've won the pie eating contest. What is the prize for winning the pie eating contest? More pie. You've won this person. What is the prize? You get more of them. So you better be happy with your choice.

• 14:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and you can't change someone.

• 14:09Faith Jenkins?

  Not because of pressure. Or nagging or crying or any of those things. It has to be something.

• 14:14Lewis Howes?

  Within.

• 14:14Faith Jenkins?

  Come from within.

• 14:15Lewis Howes?

  Each person has to want to change and I, I really don't think you can date or marry based on potential personally. Um, and I hear a lot of women saying, well, he's got so much potential. He could become this man. But then he never becomes it.

• 14:30Faith Jenkins?

  That's why I wrote this book. That's why I wrote that book.

• 14:32Lewis Howes?

  So you, you, you date or marry based on potential, but then you're really settling because. Who you're dating and who you're marrying is who they are. Maybe they grow into something greater. Based on what they want, but you can't expect them to be on a timeline you want.

• 14:48Faith Jenkins?

  You are dating their reality. You want to marry their potential. Those two things should be aligned.

• 14:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:54Faith Jenkins?

  We went to pre.

• 14:57Lewis Howes?

  Engagement.

• 14:58Faith Jenkins?

  Counseling. Because I wanted to make sure that we were asking each other the right questions.

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Faith Jenkins?

  And we were getting to know each other the best we possibly could before even making the decision

• 15:13Lewis Howes?

  To get engaged.

• 15:14Faith Jenkins?

  To get married.

• 15:15Lewis Howes?

  To get engaged.

• 15:16Faith Jenkins?

  To get engaged.

• 15:16Lewis Howes?

  And then you had time to ask more questions.

• 15:18Faith Jenkins?

  Absolutely.

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  So what were the three conversations or questions that were the most challenging for you to have the courage to talk about or just navigate? What were the three most uncomfortable conversations in pre-engagement counseling?

• 15:32Faith Jenkins?

  How have you healed from your past?

• 15:34Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, healing is so key. It's so key.

• 15:37Faith Jenkins?

  Because we both had past relationships.

• 15:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 15:40Faith Jenkins?

  That didn't work out for one reason or another. And I think we both wanted to know if there were going to be triggers that would bring out something from the past in our current relationship. There's always going to be residue.

• 15:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:55Faith Jenkins?

  We're human.

• 15:59Lewis Howes?

  You were talking about before we started that marriage is a technology.

• 16:02James Sexton?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Lewis Howes?

  Now, what does that mean? What is the technology of marriage?

• 16:05James Sexton?

  I think anything that's designed to solve a problem is a technology, right? So, I mean, this mug is a technology, you know? And what is the problem to which this technology is a solution? Well, it's the problem of I can't hold hot tea in my hand. It's a problem of I don't want to use, and kudos to you for using non-disposable ones, that zero-waste.

• 16:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:28James Sexton?

  You listen to it. And the truth is, is that it's designed to solve a problem. So, the next question is, who has that problem? Well, you know, anyone who wants to drink a beverage has that problem, you know? And the next question, and I think the most important question is, what problems does it unintentionally create? Okay? So, every technology is a Faustian bargain in the sense that it solves a problem and it creates a problem.

• 16:52Lewis Howes?

  Now, you gotta clean it, you gotta use water to wash it.

• 16:54James Sexton?

  Exactly. Now, you have to find stylish ones. I mean, you went, you know, classic plain, but you gotta find ones with witty sayings on them and it can break, and now my favorite mug was broken and how am I gonna replace it? I mean, again, some of these problems are silly little problems in exchange for really great benefits. But... Most people never ask themselves the question, the technology of marriage, which is a man-made technology, a human-made technology. We got together and said, hey, let's create this legal contract.

• 17:22Lewis Howes?

  Governed by a state.

• 17:23James Sexton?

  Right, governed by the state. Let's come up with something that, let's turn a lover into a relative. You know, let's find a way to turn this into a legally binding contract. And people just go and sign up for this technology. And they spend more time thinking about what cake they should serve at the ceremony than thinking about, what did I just sign on for? And why did I sign on for it? And what are some problems it might create for me in exchange for the things that it solves for me? And by the way, will it even solve the problem that I'm trying to have it solve? And one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, if you got married to solve the problem of being alone, you might be alone still in your marriage. Like, if you got married because you want to have sex, you want to

• 18:06James Sexton?

  have more sex, you know, being married is no more a guarantee of getting sex than living near a restaurant is a guarantee of getting fed. You know, it doesn't mean just because you're in it, you're going to receive the benefit that you think you're going to receive of it. And how many couples, before they get married, really sit down and say, hey, we're going to sign up for this technology. What do you want to get from it? What should I be wanting to get from it? How will it change over the years? That just doesn't happen. So if that doesn't happen, how are we then surprised that it doesn't work 53% of the time?

• 18:40Lewis Howes?

  53% is now the statistic.

• 18:41James Sexton?

  Is the divorce rate.

• 18:42Lewis Howes?

  And the divorce rate, then more probably still don't work when they're in it.

• 18:47James Sexton?

  Exactly. So that's the, that's the part, and it's funny that you go there, because that's where I go with it. So 53% is already terrifying, right? If I said to you, there's a 53% chance when you walk out of this room, you get hit in the head with a bowling ball.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're probably not going to go out.

• 19:01James Sexton?

  Or you're going to wear a helmet, at a minimum, right? At a minimum, you're going to wear a helmet. You probably wouldn't go out. Now, let's look at that number, though. 53% end in divorce.

• 19:08Lewis Howes?

  That's US or global?

• 19:09James Sexton?

  US.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  US.

• 19:11James Sexton?

  US only, okay? Now, think about, what percent stay together for the kids?

• 19:16Lewis Howes?

  That should get divorced but stay together.

• 19:18James Sexton?

  Can't stand each other.

• 19:19Lewis Howes?

  But they stay together.

• 19:20James Sexton?

  That they stay together because they don't want to upset the kids or they don't want to give away their stuff.

• 19:23Lewis Howes?

  I would say another 75% stay together even though they want to get divorced.

• 19:28James Sexton?

  Okay, so let's say 20, so another 25% of married people, let's say. I mean, so, so now we've got a technology with a failure rate over 75%, okay? So now, what percentage stay together for religious reasons? Probably a declining percentage over the years, but let's say.

• 19:44Lewis Howes?

  More.

• 19:44James Sexton?

  You know, 5%.

• 19:46Lewis Howes?

  That might be the same as kids and, you know, might be the same, yeah.

• 19:48James Sexton?

  So, if I say there's a technology with a failure rate of 80%, Toyota had a .0001% brake failure.

• 19:59Lewis Howes?

  Nice save.

• 19:59James Sexton?

  On their, uh, a .001% brake failure on one of their vehicles and they recalled all of the vehicles.

• 20:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:07James Sexton?

  So if I said to you 80%, of technology, you.

• 20:10Lewis Howes?

  We still use it, yeah, yeah.

• 20:12James Sexton?

  Not only we use it, we celebrate its use.

• 20:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's part of our culture and we're shamed if we're not married almost.

• 20:18James Sexton?

  Absolutely. Well, because it's, it's considered a sign that you're not mature and forward thinking.

• 20:23Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, and we're shamed if we're divorced.

• 20:26James Sexton?

  Right.

• 20:26Lewis Howes?

  But now we're being celebrated to get out of marriages if it's not what we want or if we're not getting what we want.

• 20:31James Sexton?

  That's, that's a trend that's definitely starting to change. So, so I think.

• 20:35Lewis Howes?

  Leave him, divorce him or whatever, you know.

• 20:37James Sexton?

  Right. Well, I think as self-actualization, you know, became more of a thing and, and, and after the 1970s, you know, people started thinking about like, you know, themselves and their happiness. It wasn't just about the unit anymore. It was about, you know, finding yourself. Then, yeah, it became more acceptable to be self-interested. I'm not going to say selfish because not all self-interested behavior is selfish. But it became more acceptable to say, I'm not happy. You know, I married this person when I was 20.

• 21:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:05James Sexton?

  And now I'm 40 and shockingly, I'm not the same person at 40 that I was when I was 20. And now I'm a different person and it's no longer a good fit, you know? I mean, the analogy I tell people is, is if I said to you right now, you can have any car you want, what car would you have?

• 21:24Lewis Howes?

  Well, I just got a Tesla.

• 21:26James Sexton?

  I have a Tesla too.

• 21:27Lewis Howes?

  I actually don't care about cars at all.

• 21:29James Sexton?

  I'm not a big car guy either.

• 21:30Lewis Howes?

  But I got one for tax reasons, actually.

• 21:33James Sexton?

  Okay, cool.

• 21:33Lewis Howes?

  And I had a 1991, I still have a 1991 Cadillac El Dorado.

• 21:37James Sexton?

  Okay.

• 21:38Lewis Howes?

  That had like 60,000 miles on it.

• 21:39James Sexton?

  Okay.

• 21:40Lewis Howes?

  I Uber everywhere, I don't really use it.

• 21:42James Sexton?

  It's a great car, yeah. If you have any car you want, if you ask most people.

• 21:45Lewis Howes?

  But I like the Tesla, I like the Tesla.

• 21:46James Sexton?

  Okay.

• 21:46Lewis Howes?

  Because it's fuel efficient, it's, you know.

• 21:48James Sexton?

  Right.

• 21:48Lewis Howes?

  I just wish it had a bigger battery.

• 21:49James Sexton?

  So you're a pragmatic guy. You ask most people.

• 21:52Lewis Howes?

  Nice too, though, it's clean.

• 21:52James Sexton?

  You ask most people that question.

• 21:54Lewis Howes?

  They're gonna go Ferrari, Lamborghini.

• 21:55James Sexton?

  Ferrari, Lamborghini, I want a Maserati, okay.

• 21:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:59James Sexton?

  Now, if I then said to them, okay, you get one car, though. Whatever car you pick, that's the car you're gonna have for the rest of your life. Suddenly, a Lamborghini's a terrible idea. Because you can't put a car seat in it for a kid. And you can't, you know, when you're 80 years old, get into that car, right? So if you are only allowed to have one car, you gotta find a car that not only makes sense when you're 20, and 30, and 40, but when you're 70.

• 22:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:23James Sexton?

  And when you have kids, and when the kids have gone away. So, again, like a minivan, that might make sense when you got three kids. When the kids go off to college, that minivan no longer makes sense. Well, marriage is a technology where you're signing on with one person, and saying, for the rest of my life, I'm gonna be with this person. And that's a very challenging thing. But here's the thing, I actually think people give more thought to the car they're buying, than they do really to the technology of marriage, and what about it specifically they like or don't like.

• 22:54Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What training or information do you think, do you wish every couple would go through before signing up for the technology of marriage?

• 23:03James Sexton?

  That's a great question. I, I think, you know, if you buy a house, you get a lead paint disclosure, you get a HUD disclosure that talks about the loan. You get all kinds of disclosures, right? You sign a will, there's all these pages that explain to you in great detail, you know, what's happening when you sign that will. You get married, you're gonna get a pamphlet. You don't even get like a one-page brochure that says, This is what it is, yeah. This is the most legally significant thing other than dying that you will ever do legally. And you don't get any information about what just happened. So the first thing I would say is I think everybody who's gonna get married should have an hour consultation with a divorce lawyer. Absolutely. So they should go into your office before... Yes, but for a different reason. For a different reason.

• 23:47James Sexton?

  Prophylactically, yes. They should come in proactively and learn about what's about to happen legally. What's about to happen to my rights? You know, what's about to change in terms of how I own property? The financial obligations I'll have to this person. I would also say one of the best things they could do is talk to someone candidly who's been married for an extended period of time. You know, that's not something we do. We're not encouraged to be honest about our relationships. We're not. I mean, one of the things you talk about mask of masculinity that I loved is about, particularly for men, but I think it's true for women too. We don't share candidly what's really going on in our lives.

• 24:28James Sexton?

  We're in a very curated society where you put up on social media the best picture and the best vacation photos and the best of everything we're doing. And we don't share with each other the challenges. We don't share with each other even really relevant information. Like when I meet a couple who's been together for 20 years, you know, I wanna know, I mean, I love the story, oh, how did you meet? And you know, how many times a week do you have sex? Who initiates it? Do you ask, do you always do the same stuff? Cause you've been together for 20 years and you know what each other like? Or like, do you try, like, do you like call an audible every once in a while? Just do some wacky thing? Like, what is it, like, what is it really like? The day-to-day of your relationship? And so many people, I mean, you've been in relationships, I've been in relationships.

• 25:13James Sexton?

  So many people just don't talk honestly. Even when I'm with my guy friends, you know, do we really talk honestly about the day-to-day of our relationships? The way we talk to the women in our lives? Like, the nickname they have for us or the nickname we have for them? Again, it's private to some degree information. But if we could share that stuff a little more, we'd have a lot more accurate of a perception of where our relationship stands in the scheme of things and how we're doing. You know, because I really think there's this perception that people have of, you know, "Oh, we're only having sex this many times a week." It's like, "Well, okay, is that a lot? Is that too little?" Like, you have nothing to compare it to. Right, right. You know, so in marriage, there's no way to know if you're doing well at it.

• 25:57James Sexton?

  Because you can't say, "Well, you know, we have fights every now and then." Well, okay, people have fights every now and then, but if you have a fight every week, that might be a lot, but how would you know? What would you compare it to? Right. So I would say one of the best things you could do to people who are considering getting married is put them in a room with people who've been good at that technology, who've managed to not only endure marriage, but endure it and still like it. And thrive. Right, right, and still say, "You know what? I'd sign on for this again." Yeah. Like, in a room full of people, I'd still pick this person. Yeah, that's cool. You know, and how many of those opportunities do we really get to talk to people that way about their relationship? Not many, yeah. And maybe also talk to someone who's been through divorce and ask them, "What didn't it work and why didn't it work?" And where did it break down? Yeah. Exactly.

• 26:41James Sexton?

  See, one of the principles that inspired me to write the book was the idea that, you know, again, I hate using car metaphors because I'm not a car guy, but it's the best analogy I can think of in the sense that if, when you bought a car, you did every bit of preventative maintenance that a mechanic told you to do. You changed the oil every two months. Everything, right? Yeah, my sister's a dentist, you know, and she always says to me, "By the time your tooth hurts, you're screwed." Prevent it. Yeah. Gloss every day, not after. If you do all the stuff she tells you to do when you go see her, your teeth are going to do well. Yeah. So it's, for me, who knows more about how a car breaks down than a mechanic, right? So I know what, I know people are in my office and I get a very candid view of them and

• 27:26James Sexton?

  I get to talk to them and I have been very blessed that people trust me with tremendously personal information. And so what I wanted to do with that information is just find a way to leverage that into some kind of wisdom. That people could use and say, you know what, just don't do what they did. When we were talking about titles for the book, you know, it was a hilarious escapade because, you know, one of the first ideas was, well, we'll call it everyone screwing everyone. Because it was about how people just abuse each other in the process of divorce and how they're really taking advantage of each other. And then we said, well, no, that's too pessimistic. And we said, well, you know, maybe we could, you know, just call it, you know, vows and talk about like the promises that people make. But it's not really the promises that are interesting.

• 28:10James Sexton?

  It's the way that people go in with good intentions with those promises and they just can't keep it together.

• 28:16Lewis Howes?

  Can't keep it, yeah.

• 28:17James Sexton?

  So I really think that, you know, for me, the best thing we can do with anybody is to, yeah, show them a model of success, right? And show them a model of failure. You know, and, and, and look, you've said it a million times on this show, that you learn just as much from your successes as your failures. You might learn more from your failures even to some degree. So we don't have those role models. We don't have relationship role models, you know? And, you know, one of the things, you talked about masculine masculinity when you're talking about Neil Strauss and his marriage and how he says, look, it was my stuff. It wasn't, like I said, oh, I don't like marriage because I don't like this about it and I don't like that it would force me to do this and force me to do that. And really what it was is, he just didn't want to look at his own stuff.

• 29:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:01James Sexton?

  And, and he felt like to have a good marriage, he'd have to look at his own stuff, which is absolutely true, you know?

• 29:08Lewis Howes?

  Terrifying.

• 29:09James Sexton?

  And most of what my book is about is about, yeah, you gotta look at your stuff. If you wanna, if you wanna be successful in this technology, you gotta look at it, own it, and share it with this person.

• 29:20Lewis Howes?

  And be aware and be honest with the person about who you are and what you, what you want, what you don't want. Now, you were, you were married for how long?

• 29:27James Sexton?

  I was married for 12 years.

• 29:28Lewis Howes?

  12 years, got divorced.

• 29:30James Sexton?

  Yep, got divorced.

• 29:31Lewis Howes?

  While you were a divorce attorney.

• 29:33James Sexton?

  Yes, while I was a divorce attorney.

• 29:34Lewis Howes?

  So you're hearing these stories every day.

• 29:36James Sexton?

  And going through it.

• 29:37Lewis Howes?

  Going through your marriage.

• 29:38James Sexton?

  But you know, my, yeah, I mean, my marriage, I think, benefited from my experience as a divorce lawyer.

• 29:44Lewis Howes?

  Because you knew the cues of what not to do or what was gonna work.

• 29:47James Sexton?

  Yes, but it, it was hurt by the fact that I Love what I do for a living and was so consumed with it that I worked constantly. You know, my ex-wife was one of my dearest friends to this day. She's remarried to an amazing guy who's a great stepdad to my sons who are now older. They're both in college. But I'm very blessed. I mean, I've had an experience of divorce where I'm still close friends with her. I'm friends with her husband, you know, and I'm very lucky for that. Because I look at it like there's a lot of people I love that I wouldn't want to be married to. Sure. And she's one of them. She's someone I love. She's someone I appreciate, who I think is just an amazing person.

• 30:29James Sexton?

  But we don't have the chemistry, the exact ingredients that you need to be successful in marriage. Because we met when we were seventeen. And what we wanted when we were seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty-two, when we got married, twenty-four, when we had kids. When we turned around and we're in our thirties, we went, you know, we don't actually have that much in common. And so either I'm gonna have to stop being who I actually am. Like, I love to travel. You don't love to travel. You love, you know, I mean, from silly things. You love shabby chic furniture and I like very zen aesthetics, you know? Like, you love this kind of movie and I love this kind of movie. And you reach a point where you kind of go, well, do we white knuckle it now? Because we don't want to quit something that isn't working?

• 31:14James Sexton?

  Or do we say, you know what, let's call this. Let's call this and let's find someone who feeds us in the right way. And see if, or just be alone for the right reasons, you know? And I'm very blessed that the person who I was married to was mature enough to see it the same way. And to have that painful but really wonderful conversation that so few people can have. And that is to say, look, this, this thing was successful. You know, we both are leaving this better people than we were when we came into it. And we're leaving it with two kids that are the exact chemistry of the two of us. And they're made up of the two of us. But we're gonna kind of take our different paths now.

• 31:59James Sexton?

  And let's still love each other. Let's still respect each other. Conscious uncoupling, let's call it, right? Absolutely. I mean, that's the term that's been handed to it. But you know, the truth is, is I think people have been doing it for years. You just don't hear about it. It's not that interesting. My divorce is the least interesting thing about me. It really is. Like if I said to you, like, you know, tell me 10 things about yourself. The fact I'm divorced wouldn't make a list because the fact that I tried to marry someone and stay with them forever and it didn't work out isn't that interesting. It's not that unique. You know, what you hear about divorce, the people who talk about their divorces incessantly are people who were wounded by them. Yeah. And now they've been victimized by their divorce. And so it becomes a tremendous part of their identity.

• 32:43James Sexton?

  And they hold on to it for a while and they talk about it and here's what happened. And so, you know, they're the silent, you know, there's a huge number of people that had divorces like mine. Where the marriage just ended, it ended in a friendly fashion. They continue to co-parent successfully together and they both live their lives. There's not this pain and resentment for years and... No, and I have to tell you, as a divorce lawyer, as a practicing divorce lawyer, a huge, I would say more than 50% of the people that I represent, it's that kind of transaction. It really is that it's just two people that their time is done. And now we just have to figure out how to divide up the things they have and work out the schedules with the kids. That's good to know, 50%. Yeah, I would say at least 50%. That's good. But the thing is, the other 50% Are louder.

• 33:27James Sexton?

  Are so much more interesting. I mean, so much, it's like, because really, who wants to hear about like, oh, I talked to my ex-wife yesterday and she's lovely. You know, she's moving to Rochester soon. Like, you know, that's her life. It's the drama and the brain wreck. Yeah, she threw a bat at me. She set my car on fire. Like, it's way more interesting, you know? Oh, man. Do you feel like...

• 33:51Lewis Howes?

  You know, marriage, I hear this all the time, it's something that's not gonna be easy, right? There's gonna be challenges, there's gonna be fights or arguments, and there's gonna be some things that you're not gonna agree on.

• 34:02James Sexton?

  Sure.

• 34:02Lewis Howes?

  If you agree on everything, awesome, but it doesn't sound like, there's many marriages that are always perfect and always smooth. After 10, 20, 30 years, there's gonna be some conflict. So does that mean, in your opinion, that we should just be like, you know what, let's just throw in the towel when it gets too challenging? Or, you know, it's getting challenging, that's when we gotta dive in deeper and like, come together as a marriage, because we signed up for this.

• 34:25James Sexton?

  It's a great question, I would say the following, I think one of the most common things people will say to you about marriage is, you know, marriage is hard, marriage is hard. I don't know that that's true. I think if you consider paying attention hard, then marriage is hard.

• 34:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:48James Sexton?

  If you don't consider paying attention hard, then I don't think marriage has to be hard. I think that, it's again, not to use the metaphor again, but, you know, losing weight is harder than maintaining your weight. And I really think, look, you're gonna have challenges. You're not necessarily gonna have fights, you're gonna have challenges. Life is gonna throw challenges in your way, illness, adversity, career issues, you know, day-to-day miscommunications with each other. If you're not paying attention, those things get huge. And then the big, big things happen. So people come in and they go, I'm getting divorced because he's sleeping with his secretary.

• 35:32James Sexton?

  You are, that's a great reason to get divorced, and that's a legit thing. He's not, he's sleeping with his secretary because there's something wrong in the marriage.

• 35:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:39James Sexton?

  You know, and if you don't wanna look at that, because you have some culpability in that, and it's easier to just go, oh, this harlot came and took him away, and it's a lot easier to say that. But the truth is, you know, you stopped paying attention, you know, and this is the question I find myself when I have a minute, you know, with a client who I've been some miles with. And we're sitting outside of the courtroom waiting for the case to be called. And I have enough of a rapport with them, and we've been enough of a distance together, that I feel like I can be candid with them. I'll say to them, was there a moment where you realized your marriage was over?

• 36:15Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 36:16James Sexton?

  What was that moment? You know? And you would be amazed at the insight if people think about that question that they give to you. I had a woman who said to me, and it was, to me, a very powerful example. I discuss a little bit in the book. She said, um, there was a kind of granola that she liked. And you could only get it at like a certain store, like a Whole Foods or something like that. And, um, her husband used to always buy it. He used to always buy it. Whenever she was running low, she would just open the cabinet and there'd be another bag of it there. And she, she loved that.

• 36:46Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 36:47James Sexton?

  Because he didn't say like, oh, and look, honey, I bought your granola. Like, I get credit for that. You know, like, he just would do it. He just saw that this was something that he was paying attention. He just saw that there was this little thing, and it was this little kindness that he showed her that let her know she was important to him. He was still kind of trying to woo her without being obvious about it. And he was still paying attention. And she said then one day, she just ran out of the granola and it wasn't there. So she thought, oh, well, maybe he's like busy and he just didn't notice. So she kind of left the bag out. And, you know, sure enough, he still didn't replace the granola. And she said she had a tangible memory. It was about a year before the actual divorce, but she said she had a tangible memory. She thought, okay, this is over. You know, this thing is over now. And I think that that's the thing.

• 37:31James Sexton?

  That's kind of, if you boiled my book down, one of the things I say to people is, there's this thing in every relationship, some little thing that you had to, that you did for your partner, or some little thing that you just had to tell them, that at some point, you just stopped telling them.

• 37:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:49James Sexton?

  You know, I don't know if it's, it's just in the morning saying like, God, you're so pretty when she walks by, or if it's her saying to you like, you know, I love your, your strong arms, or whatever it might be. Like, there's just those little things. Like, we, we just want someone cheering for us. We just want, why do we, why do we get together? We want connection. We just want connection. Like, there's no other reason to get married other than wanting connection.

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  People come in because they're in pain. And they want the pain to go away.

• 38:18Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 38:19Lewis Howes?

  And they've tried, maybe they've tried something else that didn't work. And you're like, talk medicine, right? Without having to take a pill, how can I relieve this pain, this suffering, this problem? But the problem, what I'm hearing you say, is never about another person, it's always with them?

• 38:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, not always. I think that relationally, a lot of people don't realize that even if the other person is problematic. So, right, when I was training, one of my clinical supervisors once said, "Before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes."

• 38:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:48Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? So, you know, it's not like there aren't problematic people out there.

• 38:51Lewis Howes?

  Their environment.

• 38:52Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. But then what is your response to that? And I think that people don't realize how much agency they have. They don't realize that they can choose their response to their circumstances, they can choose their response to the people around them. And I'm not saying that there aren't incredibly daunting circumstances right now in the world, for example. But then how do you respond? You know, what are you going to do about it? And I think that's where people get stuck.

• 39:17Lewis Howes?

  And you talk, I love your TED Talk, because you talk about rewriting your story from the past. And I believe that we, we hold on to our stories. And we probably continue to write them in a more powerful way that keeps us trapped or traumatized. Is that fair to say? That something happens in our past, we hold on to the story daily, or whenever we're triggered, and it's like amplifies the story in our minds.

• 39:40Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, it does. And the problem is that often, whatever that version of the story is, we carry with us, and we never revise it. And so, you create a story when you're younger, for example, about something that happened in your life. And then, as an adult, you've never looked at that story through the adult lens. You're still looking at it through the childhood lens. And so, that's why I say that when people come in, that we're all unreliable narrators.

• 40:04Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 40:05Lori Gottlieb?

  That we all tell a story through, you know, this lens. And, and the thing is, these are usually faulty narratives. So, there's a, there's a broader version of the story that people haven't looked at. And so, I feel like in a lot of ways, what I do as a therapist is I act as an editor. And I have, of course, a writing background. And so, I help people to revise their stories. Because the reason they can't move forward in the story, the reason they can't get to the next chapter, is because of something is wrong with the story. They are stuck. And so it's almost like I'm helping them with writer's block.

• 40:39Lewis Howes?

  I mean, for me, life is an interpretation.

• 40:41Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 40:41Lewis Howes?

  Right? There's an instance that happens and we can interpret it as good or bad. Or we can interpret as this is a neutral event and I'm gonna make the most of this. Is that fair to say?

• 40:52Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, absolutely. And also, how we attribute other people's parts of the story, right? So who are the villains and the heroes in this story? You know, I talk in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. And idiot compassion is what our friends do. They back up our story, no matter what. We say, "This happened. This happened with my boss. This happened with my partner. This happened with my parent, right? This happened with my best friend." And we say, "Yeah, that was terrible."

• 41:18Lewis Howes?

  Screw them.

• 41:18Lori Gottlieb?

  Screw them, they're a jerk. You know, "That's awful. You're right, they're wrong. Don't let anyone treat you that way." That's what we do. And if you've listened to your friends' stories, you start to realize over time that even though the situation and the names might be different, the kind of story they're telling is similar. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you.

• 41:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 41:38Lori Gottlieb?

  But we don't say that. That's idiot compassion.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  Idiot compassion is where we, as friends, say, "Yeah, you're the best person in the world. This person's horrible."

• 41:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Yep.

• 41:48Lewis Howes?

  Leave them or let them go.

• 41:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 41:50Lewis Howes?

  Forget about them, like, they're so bad at what they did. There's always two sides to every story.

• 41:54Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, right. And so the value of therapy is that we offer wise compassion. We hold up a mirror to you and help you to see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And that's where the other version of the story comes in.

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  So how do we have wise compassion for our friends? When they're like, "She cheated on me, he left me, they had an affair," whatever.

• 42:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 42:18Lewis Howes?

  How do we change our story and also show compassion that we're there for our friends? Not making, when they're in a vulnerable place, not making the other person right or wrong.

• 42:28Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  But being there for them and also kind of giving them some tough love, I guess?

• 42:33Lori Gottlieb?

  I wouldn't call it tough love. I would just call it...

• 42:35Lewis Howes?

  Reality?

• 42:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Love.

• 42:36Lewis Howes?

  Love.

• 42:37Lori Gottlieb?

  It's love. It's much more loving to be truthful in a compassionate way. So I sometimes call them compassionate truth bombs.

• 42:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Lori Gottlieb?

  Because we need to hear them. But how do we do it? It has to do with timing and dosage. So the timing is when they're really raw, when something just happened. You know, now's not the time to say, "You know, this has happened with your last three boyfriends."

• 42:57Lewis Howes?

  Right. Maybe you're the problem here.

• 43:01Lori Gottlieb?

  Have you noticed that going through people's phones is not working well for you? You know, we are not going to say that maybe in that moment. So that's the timing. And then the dosage is how much are you going to say in a particular moment and in a particular conversation? It doesn't all have to happen in one conversation. So I think that that has to do with being a good listener. And a lot of us don't know how to listen. And I think it's really helpful. I see a lot of couples in my practice too. And if you can say to the person when they come to you with something, how can I be helpful in this conversation right now? I know you're really hurting. Do you want to just vent? Do you want a hug? Do you want me to help problem solve with you? Do you want my honest opinion? Or do you want me to hold off and we can have that conversation another time?

• 43:43Lori Gottlieb?

  Let them tell you what they want so you can give them something that is helpful to them in that moment. And then in another conversation, you might be able to offer them something more.

• 43:52Lewis Howes?

  When they're not completely raw or broken.

• 43:54Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 43:54Lewis Howes?

  Hurt.

• 43:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 43:55Lewis Howes?

  So what is that specific question? When anyone's coming to you with a challenge or a complaint or hurt, what's the question you should ask them?

• 44:03Lori Gottlieb?

  How can I be helpful to you right now? I know you're really hurting.

• 44:07Lewis Howes?

  What does that do for the person who's hurting when they hear that?

• 44:11Lori Gottlieb?

  It helps them to reflect on, oh, wait, what do I need? Right? Am I just going to download all of this stuff and then I'm not going to feel any different at the end? Or is there something else that I want right now? And maybe downloading it will make them feel different, just make them feel seen and understood and heard, which is important. Or maybe they want something else, but let them tell you. And I think the other thing is these three words that are really helpful when they're talking to you are tell me more. So instead of saying, you know, when they say like, oh, here's what's going on and we say, oh, well, we try to cheer them up. Like, you know, here's what you can do. We try to fix it. We try to cheer them up. We try to make them, make it seem like it's not so bad, whatever we do. Instead, just say, tell me more. We do this with our kids.

• 44:56Lori Gottlieb?

  I can say as a parent, we do this all the time, right? So your kid comes to you and says, you know, I'm really sad about this or I'm really worried about this. We say, oh, don't worry. No, it's not a problem. We say, oh, don't be sad. Right? Go have ice cream.

• 45:10Lewis Howes?

  Sweep it under the rug.

• 45:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, exactly. But the thing is that then you get the message as a kid that like, oh, wait, I'm not supposed to feel this. And really what it is, is we get uncomfortable as parents with our kids' feelings.

• 45:23Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 45:24Lori Gottlieb?

  Because we can't, we are uncomfortable with feelings. We grew up in a way where feelings were messy, feelings were uncomfortable, feelings were something that, you know, was, they were gonna be trouble.

• 45:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:36Lori Gottlieb?

  As opposed to feelings.

• 45:37Lewis Howes?

  Stop crying, stop crying as a kid, yeah.

• 45:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, as opposed to just, you know, let's, feelings are actually a great thing. People say, oh, there are these negative feelings, like sadness, anxiety, anger, whatever, even envy. I always say, feelings are like a compass. They tell us what direction to go in. So with envy, for example, I say, follow your envy. It tells you what you want. If you are feeling envy, that's great, because it says, what do I desire? It puts you in touch with your desire. What is it that I desire? And what steps can I take to get something like that in my own life? If you're feeling sad, if you're feeling anxious, what is not working right now that you can look at? If you stuff down that feeling, if you pretend it's not there, it just gets bigger. And here's what happens. It doesn't go away. It comes out

• 46:20Lori Gottlieb?

  in too much food, alcohol, drugs, insomnia, a short-temperedness, inability to function, distractibility, that mindless scrolling we all do through the internet. A colleague of mine said that the internet was like the most effective short-term, non-prescription painkiller out there.

• 46:41Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 46:42Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? And so what happens is your feelings are still there, but you're not dealing with them.

• 46:45Lewis Howes?

  What happens when we never deal with our emotions or feelings?

• 46:50Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, you, first of all, get sick.

• 46:53Lewis Howes?

  Physically sick, emotionally sick, mentally.

• 46:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Everything, everything, right? So we have, just like we have a physical immune system, we have a psychological immune system. And we have to take care of our psychological immune system. So it's just like, you know, what do you do to keep healthy with your body? Like, you're gonna eat right, you're gonna exercise, you know, you're gonna do all the things that you wanna do to take care of yourself. You're gonna get enough sleep. Those things also help your psychological immune system. They're not totally separate. The mind-body connection is profound. But at the same time, you know, are you going to be around people who don't nourish you? That's going to hurt your psychological immune system. That's going to make you sick. Are you going to stuff down your feelings? That's going to make you sick. And so, how do we take care of ourselves?

• 47:38Lori Gottlieb?

  And part of it is, instead of trying to numb out your feelings, because numbness isn't the absence of feelings. Numbness is a state of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.

• 47:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 47:48Lori Gottlieb?

  And then, not only do you not experience the feelings that you don't want to experience, but you don't experience the other feelings. You mute one feeling, you mute the others. You mute the pain, you mute the joy. So you're living in this state where you don't actually get to feel the range of feelings that make us human.

• 48:05Lewis Howes?

  What is that state called?

• 48:07Lori Gottlieb?

  I would say, I was going to say dead. I mean, I feel like you can be alive, but not living. And that's what happens to people, is that they're alive, they're going through the motions, they wake up every day, but they're not really living their lives.

• 48:21Lewis Howes?

  What's an assessment we could take for ourselves, if someone's listening or watching, to ask themselves how alive or how dead they are? And if the people in their life closest are actually good for them? Or are hurting their psychological states?

• 48:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 48:36Lewis Howes?

  Is there a questionnaire we could take, like, just off the cuff? Is there an assessment? Is there a few things we could ask ourselves?

• 48:42Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that it has to do with a sense of vitality, right? Which of course, like vitality, the word, like, life is right in there. When you wake up in the morning, are you excited about what you're doing? Is there meaning in what you're doing? Do you feel connected to how you're spending your days? Because at the end of your life, are you going to look back and say, "What did I do that was meaningful"? You know, in, maybe you should talk to someone. In my book, I, there's a woman that I treat. She's this young woman who goes on her honeymoon. She's newly married, she comes back, and she has cancer. And she says to me at one point, she says, "Why do we need a terminal diagnosis?"

• 49:19Lewis Howes?

  To have a wake-up call.

• 49:21Lori Gottlieb?

  Why do we need a terminal diagnosis to live our lives with intention? Why do we need, why do we need that to really pay attention? And I think that if we can keep the awareness of death on, sitting on one shoulder, and I don't mean in a morbid way or in a creepy way, it's not depressing, it's actually, again, going back to vitality, it helps us feel alive because life has 100% mortality rate, and that's not for other people, we like to believe that, right? And so, the thing is that if we know that we have a limited time here, I think we would pay more attention to what we're actually doing every day.

• 49:55Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for people to pay attention?

• 49:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Fear.

• 49:58Lewis Howes?

  But they're like, they feel like they're stuck sometimes for years.

• 50:02Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 50:03Lewis Howes?

  It's like, I stay stuck in a relationship that's, I know it's not right for me for years, I stay in a depressed state for years, I, you know, I stay in a job that I hate for years, it's all based on fear?

• 50:13Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I think it is fear, you know, I think it's fear of uncertainty, this is gonna sound strange, but change is really hard because we cling to something that's familiar to us. So even though we may know, oh, this would help me, this would be a good change for me, we don't do it because it's unfamiliar. And so, if you grew up with a lot of chaos, if you grew up feeling sad all the time or anxious all the time, that feels like home to you, even if it's unpleasant or even miserable.

• 50:43Lewis Howes?

  You'll keep finding chaotic environments to stand.

• 50:46Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, you keep recreating it. Yeah, and so, and so, you know, it was funny, because my own therapist gave me this great analogy, he said to me, he said, "You remind me of this cartoon, and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out, but on the right and the left, it's open, right? No bars." So basically, the prisoner is not in jail. And that's what so many of us are like, we feel like we're trapped.

• 51:09Lewis Howes?

  We're not in jail.

• 51:10Lori Gottlieb?

  We're not in jail, we can change, we can just walk around the bars, but why don't we? Because with freedom, the freedom to walk around the bars, comes responsibility, and if we're responsible for our own lives, that scares us, we feel like, oh, I don't know if I can do that, I don't know if I'm competent enough to do that, or now, I'm to blame if things don't go right, I can't blame it on everything else.

• 51:30Lewis Howes?

  Is this one of the reasons why inmates, after a long time being in prison, who get out, go back into prison, because they feel like they need to be back in that environment? Are there other reasons?

• 51:40Lori Gottlieb?

  I think there are other reasons, I think we don't give people the support when they come out, you know, they, the mental health issues that they needed to be treated for were, whenever, you know, they never got that support, and then they come out, and they're back in the same situation where they don't have that community support.

• 51:58Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for us to take responsibility for our own happiness?

• 52:01Lori Gottlieb?

  I think that if you grew up in a household where you were seen and heard and understood, those are the people who do take responsibility for their own happiness. I think for people who felt like they were ripped off in their childhoods, there's a part of them that's still in a fight. There's a part of them that still wants that redo. And so it's kind of like, they're not aware of this, but what they're saying is basically, "I will not change mom and dad until you give me the things that I did not get in childhood."

• 52:32Lewis Howes?

  So they'll go find a partner that emulates their environment from mom and dad and try to change them so they...

• 52:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, right, this is the irony of relationship, right? For those people who have not sort of worked through it. This is so common. And I think all of us have this piece in us, right? Because nobody had a perfect childhood. So what happens is people say, "Okay, when I'm an adult, I'm gonna pick a partner who really makes me feel nourished, who really gives me all those things that I did not get growing up." But what they don't realize is unconsciously, they have this radar for the people who are... who look very different from their parents on the surface. But then, once they get into that relationship, it's kind of like, "Uh-oh, this feels familiar." Right? And so what they did was their unconscious said, when they were picking their partner, "Hey, you look familiar, come closer." Even though unconsciously, they thought,

• 53:23Lori Gottlieb?

  "Oh, you're totally different from my parents. I'm gonna... this is gonna work out great." But no, they have radar for that. If they haven't worked out the stuff that's sort of their unfinished business. There's this saying, "We marry our unfinished business." We actually do marry our unfinished business. So that is why it is so important as an adult to take responsibility and say, "You know what? I'm going to have to grieve this loss of what I didn't get, and I'm going to have to work through this and assess where I am as an adult so that I pick people and surround myself with people who are healthy for me."

• 53:55Lewis Howes?

  What if you've chosen someone that you love deeply, but it's unconsciously your unfinished business? Is that the wrong person for you, once you realize, "Oh, they're never gonna change"? Or is that a point for us to reflect back and say, "Actually, I need to heal the past, accept this person for who they are, and be willing to flow within this relationship"?

• 54:16Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, what happens is so you married your unfinished business, but so did they. And so if you can both recognize that, if you realize, hey, wait, we have a lot of conflict in our relationship, or we're really avoidant in our relationship, or we don't feel connected in the way we want to feel connected, that's a great opportunity for both of you to work out your unfinished business.

• 54:35Lewis Howes?

  To heal together.

• 54:36Lori Gottlieb?

  To heal together, right.

• 54:38Lewis Howes?

  And so that relationship could thrive.

• 54:41Lori Gottlieb?

  If you both are willing to look in the mirror at yourselves and do the work. Yes, that could be a really beautiful relationship. And it can be very healing for both of you, in fact.

• 54:51Lewis Howes?

  It could potentially be the strongest bond ever if you both were able to go through that.

• 54:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 54:55Lewis Howes?

  But if you're unwilling to go through that, then what? You're gonna be in pain?

• 54:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. Well, both people have to be willing. I mean, that's the thing. So it's like you may wake up one day and say, oh, wait a minute, I have all this unfinished business. And then your partner says, yeah, it's all you. You're the problem in the relationship. You know, it's kind of like in couples therapy so often, I'll see something like someone will say like, you never listen to me. And I will say, how well do you listen to them?

• 55:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 55:19Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? It's always like...

• 55:20Lewis Howes?

  If you're just yelling at someone all day, are they gonna want to listen to you?

• 55:22Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, right. So, you know, there's this dance that we do in relationship. And what happens is people are doing these dance steps. And people become very, they become very ingrained. It's like, oh, here we go. You can script out people's arguments. You know exactly what they're gonna look like.

• 55:36Lewis Howes?

  It starts with one thing and then it goes back into many different things. You're like, oh, man.

• 55:40Lori Gottlieb?

  And you know exactly how it's gonna go, and who's gonna feel what, and who's gonna accuse the other person of what. And that's the dance. And so if one person changes their dance steps, the other person either is going to fall flat on the dance floor, or they're gonna have to change their steps too if they want to keep dancing.

• 55:55Lewis Howes?

  Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.