Live From New York with Sam Rockwell (‘The White Lotus’)

Oscar winner Sam Rockwell has established himself as one of the most versatile actors of his generation. In our recent sit-down, recorded at theTribeca Audio Festival https://tribecafilm.com/festival/audio-storytelling, we trace the arc of that career culminating in his season-stealing turn inThe White Lotus https://www.max.com/shows/white-lotus/14f9834d-bc23-41a8-ab61-5c8abdbea505?utm_source=universal_search. We begin with his bifurcated childhood, split between San Francisco and New York City (10:00), falling in love with the movies of the ‘70s and ‘80s (15:30), the cathartic release of performance (18:05), advice from the late Gene Hackman on the set of Heist (21:28), his career-defining turn in Confessions of a Dangerous Mind (23:14), and how he gradually began to lean into vulnerability as an artist (33:47). In the second half, a tribute to Christopher Walken (34:45) and the late Philip Seymour Hoffman (38:32), a dissection of that scene from season three of The White Lotus (44:06), why he tapped into his childhood to portray Bob Fosse in Fosse/Verdon (50:50), and the monologue from Death of a Salesman (52:49) that started it all. If you’d like to know about our next live show, say hello at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. For more episodes, visittalkeasypod.com https://talkeasypod.com/ or ournew YouTube page https://www.youtube.com/@talkeasypod. And a special thanks to actor Spencer Neville https://www.instagram.com/spencerneville/ for the assist on today’s introduction. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Sam Fragoso?

  Today on the show is actor Sam Rockwell. We taped this live at the Tribeca Audio Festival at the SVA Theater. And I've just been thinking about his work a whole lot lately, especially with his turn in The White Lotus. You remember the monologue he did, which hopefully net him an Emmy. But to help me introduce him, I thought I'd call up a pal of mine. This is Spencer Neville. You may have seen him in that movie Devotion with Glenn Powell. He was in a couple of episodes of Ozark. He's one of these young and up and coming actors who, like, in five years, you'll see in everything. He also, I should say, although

• 1:22Sam Fragoso?

  we are friends and we tend to be transparent with each other, he has no idea that I'm calling him to help me introduce Sam Rockwell.

• 1:34Sam Fragoso?

  Spencer?

• 1:35Speaker 01

  It's me. What are you doing? What's happening?

• 1:38Sam Fragoso?

  We're doing a little experiment right now. We're experimenting on the show, and you're on it. I've called you because I need your help introducing Sam Rockwell.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48Sam Fragoso?

  Obviously, like, in preparation for these, as you know, I try to watch and read just about everything. And I was going through the movies, like Moon, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, The Way Way Back, Seven Side of Pass. They didn't totally hit when they came out.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05Sam Fragoso?

  But then now, when I look back at them, I'm like, God. I wouldn't say he's underrated, but he's kind of gone unsung for a while until he got that Oscar for Three Billboards.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:16Sam Fragoso?

  What do you love about him as like, as someone who has committed themselves to acting as you have?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  I think just like his approach, when I watch him, it feels like there's such a rawness to his work and to his preparation. And I'm sure that's, I'm sure he does a lot. I don't even know what his background is. He's probably classically trained and he's like, been doing this for a million years and he has his process and everything. But it, it literally, to me, I'm like, oh shit, man. This guy is just like, he's like a gunslinger. I mean, even in that, like now iconic monologue in The White Lotus, it's just like, he keeps throwing like curveballs at you. Yeah, I've been doing this a long time. It's like, okay,

• 3:03Speaker 01

  you gotta see where, where somebody's going with something. And then all of a sudden it's just like curveball, sinker. I'm so on my heels, it feels like when I watch him with just like that unexpected nature. There's like a danger to that, that unexpectedness, you know?

• 3:20Sam Fragoso?

  That monologue from The White Lotus, like we get into it in this episode, because to me, it felt like the culmination of so much of his work. Like, he got to do all the moves in that one scene.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  It was like a greatest hits performance all in one. Like he's bringing the comedy and just like the just pure commitment to that, you know? Like, I would have, I would have loved to be like a fly on the wall watching them film that and just like seeing the outtakes on how many times, if ever, either one of them, him or Walton are like breaking because of the just sheer ridiculousness of what he's saying. But yeah, man, he's a master.

• 4:03Sam Fragoso?

  My last thing for you, obviously, we don't do that many live shows. And I want to know, as a friend, like, how guilty did you feel that you didn't come?

• 4:13Speaker 01

  It was my greatest disappointment in my life, Sam.

• 4:15Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, that's a charmed life, sir, if that is true.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  I'm honored that you still consider me a friend and I'm ashamed of the way that my friendship was portrayed in that moment.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  But yeah, I, I wish I could have been there. That would have been so cool. And then I'd have probably got to, uh, meet him and then maybe been weird a little bit at first and then, and then he would have probably liked me.

• 4:41Sam Fragoso?

  You know, you two do kind of have that in common. You're both a little weird at first.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 4:46Sam Fragoso?

  I think so.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Thank you for confirming my, uh, my greatest insecurities.

• 4:50Sam Fragoso?

  Um, no problem. I can, I can name a couple of others. Uh, your height for one.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  I, you son of a bitch.

• 4:58Sam Fragoso?

  Spencer, you don't get to look like you and not get made fun of for your height because you're too handsome of a guy. We got to attack you somewhere.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Um, I'm not sure I agree with that fully, but I mean, just imagine, just imagine where I'd be if I was six, one, Sam.

• 5:14Sam Fragoso?

  Would you be where Glenn Powell is?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Well, he's not six, one. Okay. Come on. He's, he's six foot. He's six foot. No matter what he says. Okay. I spent a lot of time with the guy.

• 5:23Sam Fragoso?

  I know. You're a close buddy.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe I would be. I can't say for sure, but.

• 5:28Sam Fragoso?

  Can I offer something?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:30Sam Fragoso?

  I want to say like your willingness to even jump into this Zoom call, I think speaks to why you are a good actor and, and why I have a feeling a lot of good things are coming for you. And I hope that includes a mentorship from Sam Rockwell, if he does listen to this.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Man, thank you. I appreciate that. Uh, you know, I love you.

• 5:53Sam Fragoso?

  Before we run into the episode, uh, I want to give a shout out to the people at the Tribeca Audio Festival. They, uh, helped put this together. This is taped at the SVA Theater in New York City. There were 400 people there. Spencer was not one of them. And, um,

• 6:16Sam Fragoso?

  I just wanted, I just had to say in front, I just wanted to get your response. Um. We, the stor- the stor- I'm sorry. The story of the episode, by the way, Spencer lives in Los Angeles. He gets a pass.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  I was far. I was far from you.

• 6:30Sam Fragoso?

  You were very far, but, but I hope you're gonna like this episode because we do talk about his arc and his formal training, the Meisner stuff that you probably didn't know about, the coming of age in San Francisco and New York, the early influences he had, like Gene Hackman and Christopher Walken and the late, great Philip Seymour Hoffman. We get into all of it. And so Spencer, thank you for helping me set up this, this episode.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  An honor.

• 6:57Sam Fragoso?

  And without further ado, here's my live conversation at the Tribeca Audio Festival with the one and only Sam Rockwell. Thank you, Spencer.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Thank you, Sam.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  All right. Wow. Wow, we get a Talk Easy cup. Fantastic.

• 7:24Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, if it goes well, you can keep it. Hi, everyone. Holy shit. Thank you all for being here.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Hi, everyone.

• 7:35Sam Fragoso?

  What green drink did you just put in there?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  A little HGH, a little vodka. No, that's peptides.

• 7:43Sam Fragoso?

  And weirdly, you didn't offer me any of that, so that's fine.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  You're welcome to some. No, it's a little vitamin shit in there.

• 7:48Sam Fragoso?

  So you're ready to do this?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  I'm ready to do this.

• 7:49Sam Fragoso?

  Okay. It's my understanding that you just came off a shoot on Easter Island. Is that right?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah.

• 7:56Sam Fragoso?

  You're doing a new movie with Martin McDonagh. You've done a few. You've been in a play with him. And on that film, I think you're working with John Malkovich, or you just did.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  I did, yeah.

• 8:05Sam Fragoso?

  Who was someone you have been admiring since Death of a Salesman.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah.

• 8:10Sam Fragoso?

  Back in the eighties, when you were in high school.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  That's, you did your research. Yeah. I did. I, I auditioned for a play in my senior year. And then I wasn't able to do, I got Crimes of the Heart, but I wasn't able to do it because I did my first movie in high school. I just got it as a fluke. But I watched Death of a Salesman. They did a television version with Dustin Hoffman and John and Stephen Lang. And I watched it. And a couple of days before I had to think of a monologue and it just blew me away and I just basically imitated Biff Loman and imitated John.

• 8:50Sam Fragoso?

  We're gonna get back around to that.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:51Sam Fragoso?

  At the end. After a shoot, how do you feel? Are you tired? Are you energized?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  It's like you've taken a big shit.

• 9:00Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm. Um. I had that in my notes, actually.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. That's good. I mean, it is like you're shedding something, you know, very quickly, I think. As quick as you can. It's a, it's a relief. You know, that first week after a job is a, there's a euphoric feeling where you just feel like, "Oh, man," you know, and then it goes away.

• 9:20Sam Fragoso?

  A lot of people here today were late, and I mentioned this not because we're upset with that, but because there was a-

• 9:27Speaker 02

  I was late, yeah.

• 9:27Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, yeah, no, I wasn't talking about you, but, but you were late, too.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 9:31Sam Fragoso?

  Um.

• 9:34Sam Fragoso?

  They were late because, I don't know if you know, but there's a lot of protests today.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:38Sam Fragoso?

  And I don't know if you've seen, but it's been quite a week for this country.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it has.

• 9:42Sam Fragoso?

  Which, the good thing about that sentence is no matter when people hear this, it will still be true.

• 9:48Sam Fragoso?

  But I want to start with politics because you were born in the Bay Area.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:52Sam Fragoso?

  November 5th, 1968, the day Richard Nixon was elected.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 9:57Sam Fragoso?

  And I was wondering-

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Bad omen.

• 9:59Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. So your birthday last year was also on Election Day.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:05Sam Fragoso?

  And I was just wondering, like, what kind of party did you throw? Like, what was the theme of your party? Was it like an "End of Democracy" kind of party?

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:13Sam Fragoso?

  A "Build the Blue Wall" kind of thing? What, what did, how do you celebrate when Trump is winning?

• 10:18Speaker 02

  I am not a political guy, but I am, I would consider myself a liberal. My father was a liberal. I'm sure you have this in your notes. I met Harvey Milk when I was eight years old in San Francisco and, uh- My dad was a union organizer and I wasn't allowed to cross picket lines and you know, things like that. So, um, you know, I'm practically, my dad's practically a communist. I mean, he's, he's, I'm kidding, but he's like Peter, you know, like Woody Guthrie kind of vibe, yeah.

• 10:46Sam Fragoso?

  He was a labor organizer for the printing union and supermarket clerks. Your mother was an actor. And then come the age of five, your parents split up.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:57Sam Fragoso?

  And your mother then moved to New York to pursue her dreams of becoming an actor.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  We were already in New York. We were in 136th Street and then we left. My father and I went to California and she stayed.

• 11:08Sam Fragoso?

  So you're in San Francisco.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:10Sam Fragoso?

  Back then. You described your childhood once as quote, "A cross between all that jazz and leave it to Beaver." Which I'm, I'm pretty sure is the first time those two works of art.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:22Sam Fragoso?

  Have ever been together.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  It's probably a little Confederacy of Dunces in there, barfly too, yeah.

• 11:28Sam Fragoso?

  What did those two sides look like for you growing up?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that was sort of referring to, well, my dad was a, a single parent and we moved around a lot. Lived with his girlfriends and all over San Francisco, at one point in the Tenderloin and you know, so he, I was a latchkey kid and, and then when I was about the age of eight or nine, he got remarried. He got a good job as a printer. And, um, things were a little more stable financially, middle class kind of thing. And before that, it was kind of hand to mouth. So, um, we kind of had sort of a, that was a little more, it wasn't leave it to Beaver, but I, I lived with my stepmother and him and then I would go to New York in the summertime and that was a more bohemian existence for about a month, yeah, with my mom.

• 12:16Sam Fragoso?

  Your earliest work was performing on stage with her, right?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:21Sam Fragoso?

  Over in the East Village. What were those performances like? Did she treat you as the only child that you were or did she treat you like an actor?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Well, it was more of a way, um... She didn't have a babysitter. She couldn't afford a babysitter, so she would just take me to the rehearsals. And that's, and I would go to ACT with my parents when I was a little kid, too. So, I was just around it, and they were like, "Well, let's just put them in the show," you know? And so they put me in the show, and then I was just singing and acting at 10, and then the following summer, I did another show with them, yeah.

• 12:53Sam Fragoso?

  This was a show where you were in Casablanca, like a comedy version of it?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yes, I played Humphrey Bogart. It was a sketch about Casablanca.

• 13:00Sam Fragoso?

  And your mom played?

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Ingrid Bergman.

• 13:02Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 13:05Sam Fragoso?

  How much therapy did you have to do?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Well, I did some therapy today, actually.

• 13:11Sam Fragoso?

  Did you?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Therapy's, uh, yeah, I believe in therapy. I'm a pro-therapy person.

• 13:16Sam Fragoso?

  I assume if people are at the Talk Easy Live podcast, they are also pro-therapy.

• 13:23Sam Fragoso?

  Did you like acting with your mom? You know, I think she was a good actor.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  She was a very good actor. She had kind of a Tracy Allman, Lily Tomlin comedic thing, uh, that was pretty brilliant. I used to watch her, and she was, she could transform. I never saw my father act, until recently, he started acting again, and he's very good, actually, but different, kind of, more subtle. My mom was like, really transformational, yeah.

• 13:51Sam Fragoso?

  Was she encouraging of you in, like, your early performances?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  She was. She, um, she became a painter, she got remarried, because she couldn't really handle the, all the other stuff that comes along with acting, and the business part of it, and the stress, and, and, um, you know, she had a hard time not being hard on herself. And it's kind of a lesson I learned, uh, when I see other actors, and when I'm hard on myself, especially when you're doing theater, you know, to let it go, and be like, "You know, that was shit, tonight. I know it was shit. I'm not gonna address it if somebody comes to see the show. I don't wanna make them feel bad, like they came to a shitty performance."

• 14:37Speaker 02

  But I do think you're gonna need to let it go and just there's always tomorrow and you'll do a better job tomorrow.

• 14:42Sam Fragoso?

  Your friend and co-star, Justin Long.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:45Sam Fragoso?

  Has described you as quote, "A sponge for human behavior." And I was thinking like, you grew up in between these two very different environments.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:55Sam Fragoso?

  In that period of coming of age, I mean, being a teenager is hard anyway, but did you feel like you were acutely aware of other people's behavior? Were you observant?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's your job as an actor is to observe people and, you know, on the subway, at a bar, or whatever, you know, you're supposed to be a detective. That's what we were trained to do in Meisner's class and, you know, the teacher would say, "If you're playing a drunk, you go to a bar and you don't drink booze, you drink coffee and you watch drunks." You know, that's what an actor does, you know, you know. But.

• 15:36Sam Fragoso?

  Because a lot of actors will just drink.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and I've done that too, and it doesn't really work. I did it as an experiment and I filmed it, actually.

• 15:46Sam Fragoso?

  Right, and which movie did you do that for?

• 15:47Speaker 02

  I did that for Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, and then I did it again for Fool for Love, when I did Fool for Love. We drank what we drank in the play and we filmed it. And it was interesting. It's an interesting exercise.

• 15:58Sam Fragoso?

  You also happen to be growing up in what many people consider to be the golden age of American cinema, in the seventies.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:08Sam Fragoso?

  And I was wondering, at that age, what did you make of actors like Gene Hackman and Christopher Walken and De Niro? Like, what stood out to you back then?

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Well, they were like, you know, gods to me. I mean, they were like, yeah, I was heavily influenced by those guys, you know, and by that era of film, you know? Cuckoo's Nest, The Deer Hunter, Taxi Driver, all those movies. I saw them way too young.

• 16:34Sam Fragoso?

  What age did you watch in Deer Hunter?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, I saw it when I was 10.

• 16:40Sam Fragoso?

  I think that kind of does explain everything about what happened here. When you graduate high school, you immediately go out to New York City to pursue acting, just as your mom did. And I've heard you say in the beginning, you weren't taking it that seriously. You were there for the adventure. But to be fair, you had some success, like, pretty early on. You booked New York shows like Law and Order and The Equalizer, commercials for Colgate, Mither Light, and I think most memorably, and there's a reason I'm saying all this, I think most memorably Hardee's.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Dr. Pepper, yeah, Burger King, there were a bunch of commercials, yeah.

• 17:19Sam Fragoso?

  Before we play clips from some of your best films, I thought we could take a look at where it all began. This is you in an ad for Hardee's. This is not a joke. This is just real.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  No shit.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  I'd do anything. I'd kill a dragon.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  So on a scale of one to 10, how mad are you?

• 17:38Speaker 03

  12.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  I barely said a word to her.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  14.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm sorry.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  9.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Let's go to Hardee's, get some rice chicken. I'm in love with you, you know that? Well, I need to borrow a couple bucks. Just a couple. Four. So, how am I doing? One of the biggest jokes I've ever met. You love me.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Wow. Wow. That's amazing. You know, Justin Long does an impression of me, and I always make fun of him. And I say, "That doesn't sound like me." And now I realize it really does sound like me. He's doing me from Hardee's, yeah.

• 18:17Sam Fragoso?

  Really an artfully made ad.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Kind of foxy, kind of cool.

• 18:21Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you spend at least a few months preparing for that.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wish. No, I, you know, I got those commercials off and on between restaurant jobs, and they would pay the rent, paid for my acting classes, yeah.

• 18:33Sam Fragoso?

  But so you go to William Esper Studio to like really focus on it?

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't know what I was doing. I really, I was doing, I was getting work, but I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. And then I went to a summer session.

• 18:45Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean by you didn't know what you were doing?

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Well-

• 18:47Sam Fragoso?

  Because you're getting these ads. Most people don't.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that doesn't mean you know what you're doing. You know, I mean, you know what I mean. You're not really- Utilizing your entire instrument, shall we say. But, and so, I went to the summer session with Bill Esper and Jennifer Beals was in my class. And then she introduced me to her husband, who coincidentally was named Alex Rockwell. And he got me into some independent films. He was directing. And he was coming up with like Tarantino and stuff. And then, and then I studied with Bill. The summer session's like six weeks. And then he said, why don't you do the two-year program? And it's twice a week for two years. I said, that's a long time, you know? I'm very busy, Bill. I got, you know, I got, I'm up for a Colgate commercial and, you know. So, he said, that'll go by really fast. So, I went and I did it.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  And I would get work here and there. And I'd miss some classes, but I did most, I did the whole two years. And I met my acting coach there, Terry Nickerbocker, who was a protege. And then he's got his own school now. But it changed my life for many reasons. And I was young, so I was a sponge. Not to get too crazy, but it, you know, essentially, Strasberg being what they call the method is more about the what happened. And Misner's more about the what if. So, emotional memory, sense memory, to prepare you to get emotional before a scene is something that maybe actually happened to the actor, recalling on some trauma or whatever.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  And Misner argues that you can't call upon things that you've never done if the character, if you're doing something that the character, like, what are you gonna, you know, really shoot yourself in the face if your character commits suicide? Or do heroin or whatever? So, it's more about the imagination and the what if. And particularizations are what Strasberg would call substitution and blah, blah, blah.

• 20:39Sam Fragoso?

  But you had a lot to draw from.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  I did have a lot to draw from. And you should never, you should do whatever works, by the way. But I think Misner was really good for me because sometimes you can't deal with the stuff that's really happened to you. It's too close to home. And so, you might need to disguise it a little and so that you can deal with that trauma in a different way. And channel it. And sometimes people can't tap into that stuff. It's just too close to home.

• 21:10Sam Fragoso?

  You said once that if you had not had acting, that you would not have had a cathartic release to work through what you were working through.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  I think that's true.

• 21:19Sam Fragoso?

  What was it that you were trying to work through?

• 21:23Speaker 02

  I had to work through, whatever it is I had to work through, you know, being an only child, being a latchkey kid, and abandonment, basically, from my mother, and you know, blah, blah, blah. We could go down. I did do therapy today, so I'm prepared for this.

• 21:40Sam Fragoso?

  But it does seem like a lot.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Let me nervously sip this water.

• 21:44Sam Fragoso?

  Yep.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  I think it was a lot, but I think that, yeah, if it was a lot, I felt that, I guess, acting was, yeah, was a good outlet for me.

• 21:57Sam Fragoso?

  The other side of the training is the lived experience of being in movies with some of your heroes. And one that comes to mind is that movie Heist with Gene Hackman.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:08Sam Fragoso?

  And I'm curious, like, how did he explain, the late, great Gene Hackman, how did he explain how he approaches each character?

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I was very cautious with him because I didn't want to make the mistake I'd made before as far as, like, hero worship. It can backfire on you, you know, you can't, you gotta be... So I didn't watch any of his... I wasn't, like, watching French Connection before I worked with him, let's put it that way. So I was just kind of like, you know, I was, I didn't speak until spoken to, basically. And I think he appreciated that. And eventually, he kind of took me under his wing, and we would tell jokes, and he would give me advice and things like that. And he was very kind to me. And I learned a lot from him. He was amazing. He was really amazing. Yeah.

• 22:56Sam Fragoso?

  He said once to you, "I try to find the simplest way to tell the story."

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:00Sam Fragoso?

  "I start with how I'm similar to this guy, start with that. Whatever is not similar, you gotta fill in."

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was his thing, you know, strip away. And as you get older, I think that that happens with experience as an actor. I watched a lot of people, and I think initially, you're imitating, you're imitating, and then you learn how to... You get a vocabulary for acting, whether you're doing that on the job training, or you're doing that in class, and then eventually you find your own voice. And that's ultimately gonna be more interesting is what your voice is because nobody wants to see a carbon copy of a carbon copy. So, and as you get older, I think more and more you strip away, yeah.

• 23:43Sam Fragoso?

  But I gotta say, like, even from Confessions of a Dangerous Mind,

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:47Sam Fragoso?

  2002, which is kind of the first film I remember seeing you in, it felt unlike anyone I'd seen before. And so, before we play a clip of that, because I wasn't just gonna let you have the hardiest thing, we're gonna, it was gonna get better. Like, who, in the Hackman way, like, how were you similar? And then what did you have to fill in?

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Well, that was a lot of products in the stew. I was hanging out with Chuck Barris. George Clooney gave me a video camera, and I videotaped him, and I basically practically lived with the guy, and I had him tape my lines into a tape recorder and all this stuff, and hung out with him. And then I was working on the Baltimore dialect with a dialect coach, but then I found that that was getting stale, and I was over-preparing in a way. And then I, so I learned that, the lesson that I've learned when I've played any real person or done an accent is that you rehearse it as Sam, and then you rehearse it as Chuck, and then you rehearse it as Sam, and then you rehearse it as George Bush, and then you rehearse it as Sam, and then you rehearse it, and you mix the two.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Eventually, you marry the two, because otherwise you lose yourself, and you're just doing an impression. And in fact, when I did Confessions, I watched, I remember watching Serpico a lot, because I wanted to get that paranoia that he has. And there were a few films like that, my Parallax View maybe, to get that kind of paranoia. Like, I watched Michael Keaton a lot for Galaxy Quest and for other things, you know, watching Night Shift.

• 25:19Sam Fragoso?

  Well, let's take a look at what the paranoia looked like. This is Confessions of a Dangerous Mind.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Eddie, something I gotta, I gotta confess, something I gotta tell ya.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  Listen, Eddie, you know me for a long time.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  As the host of the Dating Game.

• 25:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 05

  The Gong Show, Ra Ra Show.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, listen, listen, listen. I worked, I worked for the CIA, you understand? And I killed people.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  I killed, I killed a lot of people, you understand?

• 26:04Speaker 04

  I killed a lot of people.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  I came up with a new game show idea recently.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  It's called The Old Game.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  You got three old guys with loaded guns on stage. They look back at their lives, see who they were, what they accomplished, how close they came to realizing their dreams.

• 27:02Speaker 04

  The winner is the one who doesn't blow his brains out.

• 27:09Speaker 04

  He gets a refrigerator.

• 27:14Sam Fragoso?

  When you watch that, I presume you don't go home most nights and like throw on your movies?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes you catch movies on TV. It's like a home movie of a part of your life, yeah, it's interesting, you know, you kind of go back to that time.

• 27:29Sam Fragoso?

  So in the home movie of your life, what was happening?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Well, Drew, I just, she's so special, Drew Barrymore. I, speaking of people you learn things from, Drew's really special. I just watched E.T. again, I was watching E.T. Fuck, she's just fucking magic, you know? Sometimes people teach you, not only about acting, but they teach you how to behave on a set. And you learn how to behave and to not behave. I was thinking of Louise Guzman and Woody Harrelson, and this is true about Drew as well. Is that they, when you come on a set with them, they make you feel really relaxed. They just make you feel at ease, like it's not, you're not curing cancer.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  You know, you're just having a good time, because you can, there's a tendency to get a little too serious about it, you know?

• 28:22Sam Fragoso?

  You've said in the past that after confessions, you quote, "Tried to sell out, but it just never quite worked. Every time I've done stuff for money, I regretted it." Is that something you were thinking about, like, oh, I wanna, I wanna make things that matter to me versus I wanna make, I wanna buy a home?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I, I bought a home, I wanna buy more homes, you know? Um, I like homes, but I think that-

• 28:49Sam Fragoso?

  I'm glad we got that on the record, too.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  But I think that, I don't mean this in a pretentious, it sounds pretentious, but I, I don't think I can, like, do it. I, I love money, I want money, you know? I didn't have money as a kid, and I want, I'd love to have more money. Uh, I like having money, um, but, you know, I did one time, and it backfired, I'm not gonna say what it was, and it just, and I was miserable, and people made promises, and they weren't, you know? So, i- it just doesn't work out, it just, it's not worth it. It's gotta be, it's part of the equation, but it's not, you know?

• 29:26Sam Fragoso?

  You know, instead of selling out-

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:29Sam Fragoso?

  You've basically have made all these movies, um, a lot of which have an amazing afterlife, but I'm curious, like, you've played rednecks, racists, ex-Confederates, cowboys, a member of the KKK, a gay Nazi, and George W. Bush.

• 29:44Sam Fragoso?

  Not exactly in that order of awfulness, but as someone who has had the upbringing that you had-

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:52Sam Fragoso?

  -oscillating back and forth-

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:54Sam Fragoso?

  -between San Francisco and New York.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:56Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, like, your dad met his current wife at a Bernie Sanders rally.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:02Sam Fragoso?

  Is there something in you that is drawn to people that on the surface-

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:07Sam Fragoso?

  -appear opposite of you?

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, I think a good liberal probably plays a good racist because, or red, you know, whatever, because, or Nazi, because I think...

• 30:21Sam Fragoso?

  So, does a good Republican play a tolerant person?

• 30:26Speaker 02

  That's an interesting question. What do you all think about that?

• 30:31Sam Fragoso?

  All right, let's roll clips from Jon Voight. Here we go.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  I know, that's crazy, right? I mean, I know a couple, I know a couple others, too. It's kind of, it's kind of nuts, yeah. I mean, he did Coming Home, that scene, that last scene in Coming Home. It's like, how does that guy become, I know, but listen, God bless him.

• 30:50Sam Fragoso?

  No, no, I think, I think name names. I think it's a good idea.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  But I, I mean, Jon Voight, I mean, you know, when we did, was in the Box of Moonlight, you know, Tom told me to watch Joe Buck. I've watched The Champ so many times, you know.

• 31:03Sam Fragoso?

  So, you're a good liberal, moderate person, and you're good at playing racist? Why?

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's not so much, it's not really that, probably. It's more like, I think it's just more... I think that, you know, the whole point of a redemption story is they have to be redeemed, so they have to be not a good person in order to make that journey, you know, and that's the point of a redemption story. And I think that's kind of lost sometimes. And I, and I think that, I grew up watching anti-heroes. Now, I don't think some of these characters are anti-heroes, and some of them are, but, you know, like McMurphy, you know, in Cuckoo's Nest, or a character in Five Easy Pieces, I mean, it's not exactly, he's a

• 31:50Speaker 02

  little bit of an asshole, you know? And that's what I like about, I was watching Your Friends and Neighbors with Jon Hamm, and I was like, I love this for Jon, it's a really cool thing, and it's an anti-hero. And I, that's what the 70s were about, taxi driver, you know?

• 32:07Sam Fragoso?

  It's hard, because you said, recently, like, Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, yeah, Matt Stickman, Moon, The Assassination of Jesse James, Seven Psychopaths, all films where you're playing anti-heroes.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:20Sam Fragoso?

  All are in line, or sort of inspired by that era that you came up watching movies, 70s.

• 32:29Sam Fragoso?

  And you said recently, quote, "I don't think any of those movies would be made today."

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:34Sam Fragoso?

  At least not in the way that we made them. Like, what does that say about our industry that that wouldn't be made today? Or does it say something about the movie going public that doesn't want to watch that?

• 32:47Speaker 02

  I think it's coming back. I think things are, I think we're finding our way with storytelling. I think we're, I think we're sort of finding our way with it. I think people are trying to figure out what they want, you know? And it's interesting. It's an interesting topic. It's a very complex topic, but yeah.

• 33:05Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know. It sounds like you're running for office when you say that. The topic's very complex.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Well, it is, it is. I don't mean to sound, yeah, whatever, but like my tolerance for material is very dark.

• 33:21Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  You know? And some people can't watch The Thing, or The Shining, or, you know, Carrie. Sometimes those movies feed me for some reason, you know? Some of these movies, they, they make you feel, like Carrie, it's okay to be weird. You know, it tells you it's okay to be weird. And, and.

• 33:43Sam Fragoso?

  I feel like that could be your mantra.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that's every actor's mantra, right? It's like, you know.

• 33:48Sam Fragoso?

  No, I don't think so.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  You don't think so?

• 33:50Sam Fragoso?

  No.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  What?

• 33:52Sam Fragoso?

  I think you, I think you keep doing this thing where it's like, wow, look at the other actors in the scene. They're really good. One, they're not here. But two, two, they didn't show up because they're like, we like Drew Barrymore's laugh. They show up because they like Sam Brockwell.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  That's nice. That's nice.

• 34:11Sam Fragoso?

  And I don't know if you just need a hug. I'll offer that at the end.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  I definitely need a, I always need a hug.

• 34:16Sam Fragoso?

  Do you think your capacity for dark characters?

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:20Sam Fragoso?

  Comes from the fact that you had a painful childhood.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. I think that's, there might be something to that. But when you're an actor, it's fun to be miserable. You know, that's part of the training. The training is the opposite of the military, for instance. It's you're trained to be vulnerable. You're rewarded for being silly and vulnerable. You're basically trained to be a child.

• 34:48Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  You know? And that's rewarded in acting class. It's not rewarded when you're tough in acting class. That's not rewarded.

• 35:00Sam Fragoso?

  You know, being rewarded for that, I'm thinking of two actors that have left an imprint on you. That do that exact thing, that are vulnerable and at times childish. And the first one that comes to mind is Christopher Walken. You were in a play with him.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:17Sam Fragoso?

  Called The Behanding in Spokane, written by Martin McDonagh back in 2010.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:24Sam Fragoso?

  And it's my understanding that every night, there were these 10 minutes backstage where you would be, where you would be about to go onstage and Walken was there reading the newspaper.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 35:36Sam Fragoso?

  And you said that he would often give, kind of like Walken-isms to you.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  He would, yeah.

• 35:43Sam Fragoso?

  Bits of advice. What, what have you held on to? And this is a good time to do the accent.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Well, he, he, um, he was reading the newspaper and I was getting ready to go do my monologue. Had this great monologue about gibbons, which are a kind of gorilla chimpanzee, but, um... And he was coming off from his bit, and so we had this 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes together. He would read the newspaper and I would ask him about, um, stuff. And we'd talk about current events and then, and then I'd segue into Deer Hunter questions and things like that, you know? And I, I would say, um, "So what the Russian roulette scene in the Deer Hunter? What was going on? Was Chameau, like, hard on you guys? Or was he abusing you guys? Like, was he, like, what was happening? Because that was really kinetic, what was going on with you guys in that Russian roulette scene.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Like, that was more than acting. That was like, something was going on there." He said, "No, that was all, he said, "That was bomb. I was, that was night. There were rats everywhere." He says, he said, "Um, I don't like to mess up my hair." And so, he just wants to be in a studio. You know, no wind machines, none of that stuff. And so, what he was saying was that it was, that Robert De Niro had insisted that they do night shoots with those Russian roulette scenes. And that it was, there were rats everywhere. Uh, the guy who screamed and hit him over and over again was an accountant. And he was really getting into it. He was screaming going, "Mau," that thing.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  He was really getting into it. And so, they, they really kinda went there because they were exhausted. And it just kinda happened, you know? And I thought that was interesting. It didn't really entirely answer my question, but I was, but then, you know? And then I was getting ready to do a western. And I was asking about, um, Heaven's Gate. And he, he was like, he hates horses, you know? He's a city kid, you know? He's from Queens, right? So he's, and I'm a city kid. So I'd, I'd had a couple of weird experiences on horses and...

• 37:56Sam Fragoso?

  Hold on.

• 38:01Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Well, I had done a western before. I almost got bucked. And then I went to, uh, ride on another horse. And that tried to buck me and then, so I was like, "Fuck this shit," you know? And, um, I was, I was, so I was nervous, but I wanted to do the movie. And I went, "Yeah." I said, "What was going on in Heaven's Gate?" You know, "I, I just watched it again and you look, you look very confident with the horses. You're like slapping their ass." And he's like, "No, I was terrified." "They, how horses..." "Yeah, the Wranglers, they would throw us in these stampedes." Jeff Bridges, everyone couldn't see. "It's terrible." He says, "Yeah, Wranglers are dumber than horses."

• 38:47Speaker 02

  And I was like, which I, actually, not true. I've met a lot of great wranglers. But, um, which actually, one taught me how to rope. But yeah, so he was, he's trying to scare the shit out of me, basically. And it worked.

• 38:59Sam Fragoso?

  It worked.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:01Sam Fragoso?

  The other actor that comes to mind.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 39:03Sam Fragoso?

  When you won your Oscar for Three Billboards Outside of Mississippi,

• 39:10Sam Fragoso?

  you thanked the late Philip Seymour Hoffman.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:13Sam Fragoso?

  And I feel like every time I come to New York, like, he's on my mind. I think, I mean, I think most of us probably in this room think about him and his work often.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too, me too. So does, so does, so does Walken. In fact.

• 39:27Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  I talked to Chris Walken after Phil died and, um, he was very upset. He, he'd worked with Phil and, um, he said, you know, oh, God, oh, man, uh, here we go. Therapy, right? But, uh, he said, you know, I have a picture of Charles Lawton on my wall. And he says, you know, Phil had so much good work to do, so much work ahead of him. He was gonna be our Charles Lawton. And it's not fair, you know? I remember a lot of people, Jeffrey Wright and it was, Billy, Billy Crewed Up, you know? It, we were close with Phil and it really hit us hard.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  He was a beacon for our generation and, you know, and Chris Walken was very, he was shook up by it.

• 40:17Sam Fragoso?

  Do you remember him calling you?

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, I called him just arbitrarily and then we talked about Phil. We, cause we'd had a night with Phil and Richard Belzer, who was also passed away with his poodle in a, in a restaurant. Richard Belzer brought this poodle and, um, and we had a, we had a, you know, nice, cause, uh, you know, Phil had done The Seagull with Chris Walken and then did a movie with him. But Phil directed me in a play, a Steven Gergis play, and I learned a lot from him. Phil was an amazing, amazing guy, amazing actor, amazing director.

• 40:51Sam Fragoso?

  You said, "He said things to me I have never forgotten."

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:55Sam Fragoso?

  What comes to mind when you think of that?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Well, I think that's specifically talking about stage acting and about when he directed us in Judas Iscariot. He could be very tough on us and he would say things when we're doing the play that were really... Eric Peggotty and I had a scene with Judas and the devil and we were getting a lot of laughs and, you know, he says, "You know, you guys are getting a lot of laughs and that's great, but I want you to kind of make the audience uncomfortable, you know, when you come on stage." And he would just say these things to you that really stuck with you, you know?

• 41:31Sam Fragoso?

  All right, let's take a break for a moment. When we come back, the end of my conversation, live from the Tribeca Audio Festival with Sam Rockwell. One of the best gifts you can give someone is something they'll actually use, not just during the holidays, but months or even years later. Something that's well-made, feels good, and becomes part of their everyday life. That's what I like about Quince. I've been wearing their merino wool all-season tees for just over a year now, and they've become some of the most reliable pieces in my closet. They're comfortable, easy to layer, and they've held up incredibly. They're exactly the kind of thing I'd want to give to somebody else. Quince makes those everyday staples with premium materials, including 100% Mongolian cashmere,

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• 42:57Sam Fragoso?

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• 43:42Sam Fragoso?

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• 44:29Sam Fragoso?

  You know, the work that scares you seems to be more and more on television.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:38Sam Fragoso?

  And I could think of no other scene in the last couple of years that excited me and scared me, and that says a lot about me, than your monologue in The White Lotus.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Hey, thanks. Thanks. Thanks, everybody.

• 44:59Sam Fragoso?

  Before we talk about it, should we watch some of that?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Sure, why not?

• 45:05Speaker 02

  So, one night I took home some girl. Turned out to be a ladyboy, which I hadn't done before. But this time, instead of fucking the ladyboy, the ladyboy fucked me.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  And it was kind of magical.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  And I got in my head that what I really wanted was to be one of these Asian girls getting fucked by me and to feel that.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  So I put out an ad looking for a white guy my age come over and fuck me.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Found a guy looked a lot like me.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Then I put on some lingerie and perfume, made myself look like one of these girls.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  I thought I looked pretty hot.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  And then this guy came over and railed the shit out of me. And then I got addicted to that. Some nights, three, four guys would come over and rail the shit out of me.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Some I even had to pay.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  And at the same time, I'd hire an Asian girl. I'd just sit there and watch the whole thing. I'd look in her eyes while some guy was fucking me and I'd think,

• 46:37Speaker 02

  "I am her and I'm fucking me."

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Hey, we all have our Achilles' heel, man, you know. Where does it come from? Why are some of us attracted to the opposite form? Yeah, and some of us the same. Sex is a poetic act. It's a metaphor. Metaphor for what? Are we our forms? Am I a middle-aged white guy on the inside too? Or inside? Could I be an Asian girl?

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Guess I was trying to fuck my way to the answer.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Wow, wow.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Wow. We'll return to Talk Easy right after these messages.

• 47:42Sam Fragoso?

  Are you okay?

• 47:45Speaker 02

  No, I'm good, I'm good. It's a trippy scene.

• 47:48Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. I don't know how you got there. I mean, I know you tend to read scripts over like 100 times and record it and then play back. Can you talk about like, for that piece,

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:02Sam Fragoso?

  how the hell do you get to that place?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  When you say "that place," what do you mean? You mean...

• 48:08Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know, the place where you conveyed like eight feelings at once?

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks. Yeah, yeah. Again, I'd done a lot of research already.

• 48:18Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, what kind of research?

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, exactly. Well, I'd already done the sex addict research on a movie called Choke. So I'd done quite a bit of that. And then I'd done like Sober, The Guy's Sober, and I did Drunks with Parker Posey. So that's kind of full circle. And then I did some Navy SEALs, because we were supposed to be sort of ex-military. I'd done some Navy SEAL, like I was almost in G.I. Jane, there's a few other things. But as far as the Buddhism, I just kind of like, I watched some documentaries, I read some stuff, and that was about it. But like, so in a way, you know, sometimes you're preparing for a part your whole life, you know? And I'd already done a bunch of monologues. I did American Buffalo, I did the fucking Ruthie

• 49:02Speaker 02

  speech. And then I was doing all these monologues in South Africa on this movie, this movie which had all these, like, five giant monologues. It was a 10-page monologue that starts the movie with Gore Vorbinski. And so that... That all kinda came to a head in South Africa and Leslie said, you know, you should, you gotta consider this. And then I had to learn the lines really quickly.

• 49:25Sam Fragoso?

  Did you run those lines with your partner?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  I did, on safari, yeah. And she got me off book. No, I probably, Leslie really convinced me to do that.

• 49:34Sam Fragoso?

  How did she do that?

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Well, I was just worried that I wouldn't be prepared enough. And so I was on the fence because of that. And she said, you gotta do this.

• 49:43Sam Fragoso?

  Because you prepare a lot. I mean, I heard this is why you don't do that much television.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 49:48Sam Fragoso?

  Because the writing changes day in, changes day out.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  It's impossible to get ahead of it, especially eight to 10 episodes. If you're doing an hour trauma, that's like four independent movies. And to get ahead on the lines is, it's a seven day a week job, especially something like Fosse Verdon, where you're dancing, you're losing weight, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then you gotta learn the lines. So, you know, I was worried and I kidded that I might need an earwig for this. And so they had one prepared. And I didn't need it.

• 50:16Sam Fragoso?

  You did that in one go?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  I did that in one take. Several, yeah, I did most of it in one go. And they said, you want to do the wide shot or the close up first? Because they didn't know how prepared I was gonna be. They didn't know if I was gonna be, needed to warm up. And then I didn't want it to get stale, so we started on the close up. And yeah, it all kinda rolled out from there.

• 50:37Sam Fragoso?

  We're all gonna remember this moment. Because in September, when you win the Emmy, we're gonna love that we watched you squirm your way in the chair as that was on. That was a great, it was a great image. Before we go, I only have a couple more things. Fosse Verdon.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Sam Fragoso?

  You know, you described your childhood as part Leave It To Beaver and part All That Jazz.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:03Sam Fragoso?

  So when you wind your way back to playing Bob Fosse, did you get to expel or excavate some part of your childhood in that piece?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  I was exposed to things as a kid that, that kids aren't usually exposed to. So I was backstage, you know. Um, with adults, you know, and did drugs and alcohol and stuff when I was way too young and.

• 51:27Sam Fragoso?

  Like, what, what, what age, ten or eleven?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, like ten, thirteen, twelve, you know, like way young. And I was exposed to like, you know, a lot of like crazy stuff like Bob Fosse. So, so, you know, you grow up pretty fast, you know, and, and Chris Walken was a child actor. Christian Bale was a child actor. So, yeah, it makes you a little, and I've talked to them about it, and it makes you feel like a little bit like an alien. And Bob Fosse had that kind of thing, you know, where you just feel a little odd, you know?

• 51:56Sam Fragoso?

  Do you still feel that?

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you just feel like, it, it's not a bad thing necessarily. It's an interesting thing. You just feel otherworldly. It's weird. I can't express, it's weird. If there's a lack of boundaries in your childhood, you're not easily shocked. Which brings us to this monologue in a way.

• 52:16Sam Fragoso?

  Definitely.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Um, and Bob Fosse, you're not easily shocked if you've seen a lot of shit, you know, and.

• 52:22Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, the hardies ad didn't even throw you either, yeah.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  So, so, you know, I think that's what it is, yeah. And, you know, it, once you get into like a, this is something I just want to say, is like, I, once you get into like a, you know, a desperate fervor of preparation and you're like, how the fuck am I gonna do this? I've Googled great monologues, and when you Google that, all these monologues come up. And it's pretty cool. I, I would say to young actors, you know, look at it, because all these things come up, you know, like, you know, Jack Nicholson, Fugit Men, and Stallone comes up in Rocky V, and like Morgan Freeman in Shawshank, and all these things come up, yeah.

• 53:03Sam Fragoso?

  Well, um.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  And it's good inspiration.

• 53:06Sam Fragoso?

  Speaking of a desperate fervor of preparation.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:10Sam Fragoso?

  Which I experience every week.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 53:13Sam Fragoso?

  And speaking of great monologues, um, the first one you really did perform was for that audition, uh, Death of a Salesman.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:22Sam Fragoso?

  John Malkovich.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:23Sam Fragoso?

  And you never got to actually do the part.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  No, that's right.

• 53:27Sam Fragoso?

  Well, tonight you get to.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  What the fuck? Are you kidding me? Is this no Willie, nobody's hanging himself? Oh, this is amazing. You want me to cold read this?

• 53:39Sam Fragoso?

  I want you to cold read it.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Well, I don't have my reading glasses, but I'm gonna do the best I can.

• 53:43Sam Fragoso?

  Does someone have glasses for him?

• 53:45Speaker 02

  You know why I had no address for three months? I stole a suit in Kansas City and I was jailed. I sold myself out of every good job since high school and I never got anywhere because you blew me so full of hot air, I could never stand taking orders from anybody. That's whose fault it is. It's goddamn time, you heard that. I had, I had, oh, this is awful. I had, this is why, this is why you gotta prepare.

• 54:10Sam Fragoso?

  You're doing great. Let's take it back, let's take it back a couple lines.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Let's take it back, let's take it back. Don't push it, Sam.

• 54:16Sam Fragoso?

  I'm not pushing. I'm just trying.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  No, I was talking to myself.

• 54:18Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, oh, you.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Don't push, don't push.

• 54:25Sam Fragoso?

  But we're just trying to get it right.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  That's right. Don't, just ignore the exclamation points.

• 54:28Sam Fragoso?

  Here we go.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  That's what Chris Walken would do. That's whose fault it is. It's goddamn time, you heard that. I had to, I had to be big boss, big shot in two weeks and I'm through with it, Willie. I ran down seven flights with a pen in my hand today and suddenly I stopped. Hear me? In the middle of that office building, do you hear this? I stopped in the middle of that building and I saw the sky. I saw the things that I love in the world, the work and the food and the time to sit and smoke. And I looked at that pen in my hand and I said to myself, what the hell am I grabbing this for? What, why, why am I, why am I trying to become what I don't wanna be? What am I doing in this office? Making a contemptuous, begging fool of myself when all I want is out there waiting for me the minute I say I know who I am? Why can't I say that, Willie?

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Pop, I'm a dime a dozen and so are you. I am not a leader of men, Willie, and neither are you. You were never anything but a hardworking drummer who landed in the ash can like all the rest of them. I'm a dollar a day, Willie. I tried seven states and I couldn't raise it a buck an hour. You gather my meaning? I'm not bringing home any prizes anymore and you're gonna stop waiting for me to bring them home. Pop, I'm nothing. I'm nothing, Pop. Can't you understand that? There's no spite in it anymore. I just am who I am, that's all. Will you let it go for Christ's sakes? Will you take that phony dream and burn it before something happens?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was surprising.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes the spirit takes you.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Talk Easy will return after these messages.

• 56:11Sam Fragoso?

  I think you have a future.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Cold reading by the two Sams. Thank you for that. Wow, that was, uh...

• 56:17Sam Fragoso?

  Therapeutic?

• 56:18Speaker 02

  That was cathartic, yeah.

• 56:19Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  That was fun, yeah.

• 56:21Sam Fragoso?

  What'd he say? "Will you take that phony dream and burn it?"

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great. It's Arthur fucking Miller, man. Beautiful.

• 56:28Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I just want to say, the dream that started and formed in you as a latchkey kid moving back and forth between SF and New York, the one that could have very easily slipped away, I'm so glad you held on to it. And, um...

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Thanks, man.

• 56:47Sam Fragoso?

  I just want to, uh, I want to thank you for doing the cold reading and indulging that.

• 56:52Sam Fragoso?

  And, uh...

• 56:52Speaker 02

  I was just imitating John Malkovich.

• 56:55Sam Fragoso?

  It was a great imitation. However you're doing it, Sam Rockwell, thank you for the time. Thank you.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Thank you, Sam. Thank you. Thanks, man.

• 57:03Sam Fragoso?

  Sam Rockwell, ladies and gentlemen.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  That for Gose.

• 57:37Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show.

• 57:39Sam Fragoso?

  I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. If you came out to the show, thank you. That was amazing to see 400 people and a packed crowd enjoying the thing we do here every Sunday. It was really amazing. We plan to do a whole lot more of them in the coming months. If you want us to come to a city near you, drop me a line at [email protected]. I say it every week, so I'm going to drop the formalities. We put a lot into each episode of this program. I think that's probably clear by now. And so if what we make has mattered to you, if that talk with Sam gave you some joy, gave you some to think

• 58:21Sam Fragoso?

  about, the best thing you can do is to share the program with a friend, a family member, anyone that you think may enjoy the kinds of conversations we have here each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks today to Liz Mahoney, Danielle Day, and the rest of the team at Narrative PR. I also want to thank Davey Gardner, Alison Morgan, and Baze Hohen at Tribeca for so graciously hosting us. I'd also be remiss to not thank my friend Spencer Neville for helping me introduce this episode, and of course, our guest, Sam Rockwell. You could see his unforgettable performance in The White Lotus on HBO. To learn more about Sam and his work, visit our show notes at talkeasypod.com. For more

• 59:04Sam Fragoso?

  conversations with other great actors, I'd recommend Michelle Williams, Joaquin Phoenix, and Willem Dafoe. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium for exclusive bonus content of this show, not to mention ad-free listening. Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com. We're also putting more and more of these episodes up on YouTube, so if you want to check out the video of some of my favorite conversations, head over to the Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso page on YouTube. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's

• 59:47Sam Fragoso?

  talk was edited by Adam Jamal and Peter Campbell, with special assistance from Ariel Gardner and Ian Jones. It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. It was engineered live at Tribeca by Dave Lorenz, with support from RJ LaRusa. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Kishashani. Photographs today are by Sarah Schneider, with research assistance from Ben Eisen. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media, and I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday. Until then, stay safe and so long.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together. We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats. I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there? There were 32,000 pounds of them. 32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.

• 1:01:07Speaker 05

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