Roll On: Keeping Your House Clean

Welcome to another edition of Roll On—my bi-monthly deep dive into (semi) current events, topics of audience interest, and of course answers to your questions. Commanding co-host duties as always is my hype man Adam Skolnick, an activist and veteran journalist perhaps best known as David Goggins’ Can’t Hurt Me co-author. Adam has written about adventure sports, environmental issues and civil rights for outlets such as The New York Times, Outside, ESPN, BBC, and Men’s Health. He is the author of One Breath and is currently hard at work on a novel. Some of the many topics explored in today’s conversation include: • The impending U. S. presidential election; • how the coast of Los Angeles was once a legal dumping ground for DDT, and the implications of this oceanic pollution; • the documentary ‘The Perfect Weapon’ and the rise of cyber warfare; • Nina Schick and her investigation into the world of Deepfakes; • thoughts on sustainability, stability, and the power of community; • and Rich's newest offering, 'Voicing Change’. In addition, we answer the following listener questions: How do you manage burnout? How do you live in alignment with your values? How do you navigate body dysmorphia and eating disorders as a man? Thank you to Randall from Nebraska, Robel from Montana, and Evan from Fullerton, CA for your questions. If you want your query discussed, drop it on our Facebook Page, or better yet leave a voicemail at (424) 235-4626. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:24Rich Roll?

  All right, let's do the show.

• 1:30Rich Roll?

  We are back, we're here, and we are ready to take a roll call in another edition of Roll On with my bestie, my hype man, Adam Skolnick, journalist, environmentalist, large personality, here.

• 1:45Adam Skolnick?

  Oxygen room setter.

• 1:46Rich Roll?

  To edify us and soothe our soul in another conversation about... Semi-current topics of interest pertinent and possibly not, depending upon how this goes.

• 1:57Adam Skolnick?

  It depends on your point of view, I guess.

• 1:59Rich Roll?

  How are you doing?

• 2:01Adam Skolnick?

  Good, man. Good. I've been able to get some actual exercise this week and like, you know, out there five, six days and I did a six-mile swim run.

• 2:11Rich Roll?

  Nice.

• 2:12Adam Skolnick?

  Which was fun, which was kind of the first long, like not long, but.

• 2:15Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. How's the sleep? You're getting, you're able to bank a little bit?

• 2:18Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  So you can get out there with the baby?

• 2:20Adam Skolnick?

  He's sleeping like six and a half hours one time and then four-hour shifts, but much, much better. Yeah, he's, he's growing. He's really growing up.

• 2:30Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 2:30Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 2:31Rich Roll?

  Well, good to be back with you. A lot has happened since we last sat down in our personal lives and in the world, of course. Before we get into it, be sure to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. I appreciate that. Hit that notification bell so you can be alerted when we post a new video. What we do here is we break down some events of the day. We kind of share some stories from our personal life. There's a loose format that's continuing to evolve, I suppose. And we answer, in the second half, we answer listener questions. So if you'd like your question considered for us to discuss, you can leave us a voicemail at 424-235-4626. So last weekend I was in Austin.

• 3:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 3:16Rich Roll?

  My uncle, who is my dad's older brother, is in his final days of life. He's somebody that I'm not super close with, but my dad wanted to go out and be with him for the last time. And I went out to do the same, but also to support my dad. So the circumstances under which my first experience traveling were

• 3:42Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 3:43Rich Roll?

  Not exactly, you know, fantastic, but it was really nice to see my dad and I'm really glad that I went. It really brought us together, brought us much closer. We were able to have some deep and meaningful. Conversations about life.

• 3:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Rich Roll?

  And it just reminded me how precious life is and also how fleeting it is. And how when these moments arise, these opportunities to be with the people that you love, how you have to seize them. And I wasn't looking to jump on a plane and travel in the middle of a pandemic. I haven't been on an airplane since this whole thing began. But I was willing to kind of roll the dice to have the experience that I had. And I'm glad that I did. It was it was meaningful. I posted about it on Instagram.

• 4:27Adam Skolnick?

  You said your uncle was actually upbeat too, right? Or he was?

• 4:31Rich Roll?

  My uncle was, well, he was alert and basically looking at maybe another 24 to 48 hours unless he wanted to have a feeding tube inserted because he wasn't able to digest food. Initially, he passed on that, which is why my dad and I jumped on a plane at the last minute to go see him. He changed his mind and decided he did want a feeding tube. So he's still with us now, although it's kind of up and down. So I was not able to actually see my uncle after all of that because

• 5:08Adam Skolnick?

  Because of COVID.

• 5:09Rich Roll?

  They would only allow one person a day

• 5:11Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  to visit, and I didn't want to take up that day spot because he had his kids coming into town from all over the place. And I just felt it was inappropriate. But I was there for my dad to basically be with him for the better part of a day where he at. So my uncle is like eight years older than my dad. So my dad grew up as the youngest and there was a lot about his older brother's life that he didn't know. And he wanted to ask him before he passed. So that was kind of a cool thing.

• 5:39Adam Skolnick?

  That is cool.

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Adam Skolnick?

  How did he handle everything? Was he pretty emotional?

• 5:42Rich Roll?

  My dad was, yeah. My dad was, yeah. And my uncle was, still is, he's still around, an amazing guy. He went to Yale and then he got his PhD in physics from Princeton.

• 5:57Rich Roll?

  In the department that was made famous by Einstein, who had since retired by the time my uncle was there. But that legacy kind of still lived on, like it's this amazing program.

• 6:08Adam Skolnick?

  You're the beautiful mind guy.

• 6:09Rich Roll?

  He went on, yeah, and he went on to design, like the, help design, like the nuclear power plants for, for submarines. Like he's, you know, he's like a genius.

• 6:21Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, right.

• 6:22Rich Roll?

  And he was also an expert at the French horn, who probably could have been a symphony musician. So he's an amazing guy.

• 6:29Adam Skolnick?

  That is amazing.

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But one thing about being outside of Los Angeles and being in Austin was just a reminder of what a cool place that is. I was able to go swim at Barton Springs. The pool was open. Running around the lake and just being in kind of a little bit more of an urban environment than I'm used to living out, you know, in the countryside out here. It was nice and definitely lifted my spirits. It was interesting though, I thought, I would have thought

• 7:00Rich Roll?

  there would be, you know, a lot of people pushing back against the mask thing.

• 7:04Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 7:05Rich Roll?

  And basically everyone was wearing masks.

• 7:07Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  Except the guy who decided to sit next to me on the flight home.

• 7:10Adam Skolnick?

  What? You can't take your mask off on a plane.

• 7:13Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, they make a big announcement, like you've got to wear your mask unless you're eating or drinking. But he ordered a cocktail and then proceeded to nurse that cocktail for almost the entire flight and kept his mask off for the whole time.

• 7:26Adam Skolnick?

  Jeez. They should put like non-mask wearers, they should, you could, you can fly, but you're gonna have to fly in the cargo hold.

• 7:33Rich Roll?

  Or just exert a little bit of courtesy, like put your mask on in between sips. If you're gonna sip this thing for the entire time.

• 7:41Adam Skolnick?

  You should get a time limit with your drink.

• 7:43Rich Roll?

  But I got tested. When I got back, I'm, I'm fine, but it was a little bit hectic.

• 7:47Adam Skolnick?

  So you didn't have COVID?

• 7:48Rich Roll?

  Traveling. Yeah.

• 7:49Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, that's where you, where you stressed going in. Was it, was it, was the airport like a ghost town or was it pretty busy?

• 7:56Adam Skolnick?

  I haven't been in an airport.

• 7:57Rich Roll?

  Well, I was in, I had connecting flights because it was a last minute reservation. Flying back, I had to fly through Phoenix and that airport was mobbed.

• 8:03Adam Skolnick?

  Really?

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  That was a little bit dicey.

• 8:05Adam Skolnick?

  Crazy.

• 8:06Rich Roll?

  Being around that many people.

• 8:07Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Rich Roll?

  But it was good. I had a cool experience when I was swimming. Have you, have you swam at Barton Springs?

• 8:13Adam Skolnick?

  No, I've never been to Austin.

• 8:14Rich Roll?

  So it's this amazing, one of my favorite pools in the world.

• 8:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 8:17Rich Roll?

  It's basically crafted out of the lake, which is really a river.

• 8:21Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 8:22Rich Roll?

  An outdoor pool that I think was built as a public works project, maybe as part of the new deal.

• 8:27Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 8:27Rich Roll?

  Quite certain, but you're, it's like swimming in a giant quarry. That's maybe, I don't know, 300, 350 meters across. And I'm swimming and I get to one end and I'm kind of catching my breath and this guy swims up to me, probably about my age, maybe a little bit older. And he's like, hey, I love the podcast. He wants to talk about the podcast. And turns out he's a retired army colonel and master flight surgeon, who'd been deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq and Jordan, like all over the world. And, and from what I gather, like was a pretty high ranking military officer for a long time,

• 9:04Rich Roll?

  who's now living in Galveston, I believe, and is the chief medical director for this kind of burgeoning industry that's popping up around space tourism, like space travel. Like he's, from what I understand, and I might have this wrong, he's in charge of like trying to create the systems and the infrastructure for how you're going to medically screen people when eventually, you know, they're going to get on these SpaceX or Virgin Galactic flights and go into orbit.

• 9:36Adam Skolnick?

  Going to the orbit.

• 9:37Rich Roll?

  Which was pretty cool. And the reason I bring it up.

• 9:39Adam Skolnick?

  You have to have like a heavy medical screening for that, right? You can't just have.

• 9:43Rich Roll?

  I would imagine, you know, I would imagine. My point being that every time I think I have a handle on who the typical podcast listener or viewer is, I think, oh, people that are eating a vegan diet or they're into triathlon or running or, you know, being in nature, like an army colonel isn't the first person that comes to mind.

• 10:07Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 10:07Rich Roll?

  And it always is touching to know that there's a broader diversity in the people that are tuning in than I would have suspected, which I think is great.

• 10:17Adam Skolnick?

  That's great. It shows you the breadth of. People that are interested in this subject matter as well.

• 10:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Adam Skolnick?

  So it's like, gives you kind of hope about the world, too.

• 10:26Rich Roll?

  For sure.

• 10:27Adam Skolnick?

  People from all walks of life interested. Yeah, I'm sure someone's listening to you in a prison somewhere.

• 10:33Rich Roll?

  I've gotten, I've gotten emails from people in prisons, which is wild.

• 10:37Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what do we got today?

• 10:40Adam Skolnick?

  What do we got? We got, uh, well, I think you have something special that you want to talk about.

• 10:45Rich Roll?

  I do.

• 10:45Adam Skolnick?

  It's, uh, you got a book out or come back to come out.

• 10:48Rich Roll?

  I do.

• 10:49Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Rich Roll?

  I do. It's been a big past couple of days. First of all, we launched a brand new website, so I want to thank all the people at, at Emory Agency, who have been working hard behind the scenes to create the next iteration of ritual.com. We launched the first version of that last night, so that's pretty cool. And we've got a lot of bells and whistles to come. Basically, what I want to do, what we're working on is twofold. One is taking all of this content that we've created in the eight years of doing the show, and better organizing it so that the site becomes an educational destination.

• 11:28Rich Roll?

  In other words, breaking the podcast into categories that align with very specific topic headers, like the microbiome, or addiction and recovery, or meditation. And then organizing the top episodes in each category accordingly. And then also providing additional resources like books and documentaries, and other ways for people to more deeply immerse themselves in that specific subject. So we're working on that now. That will launch soon. And also this new subscription offering that I'll get into later. But the big thing today, in addition to the podcast with Matthew McConaughey dropping, which is very exciting.

• 12:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, I was, I was, we were watching a little bit of that this morning in, at the house, so yeah.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  It's cool.

• 12:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it's very cool.

• 12:16Rich Roll?

  What's funny about these things, we'll get into the book in a second, but what's, what's interesting is when I scheduled that, which was a while ago.

• 12:25Rich Roll?

  I should have realized that he was gonna be on every podcast because he was on every television show. There's no reason why he wouldn't pop up on every podcast. But for some reason, I deluded myself into thinking I had not an exclusive, but maybe, you know, maybe an inroad that other people didn't have. And then, of course, he's on all the top shows, which is great. He should be.

• 12:46Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  So my hope, I mean, I haven't listened to all those other episodes, but my hope is that I got some interesting things there that are a little bit different from what you're gonna find in the other podcasts.

• 12:58Adam Skolnick?

  My question is, how do Dan Buettner and Matthew have the same nickname for each other?

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 13:05Rich Roll?

  I think-

• 13:05Adam Skolnick?

  That seems weird. That seems strange.

• 13:07Rich Roll?

  I know. Well, I think, I think Matthew was the one who came up with the nickname for Dan. And then Dan just, you know, as Matthew said, boomeranged it back onto him.

• 13:16Adam Skolnick?

  I like that Dan thought he was Bradley Cooper for like, three days.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  But you have to understand, Dan is the most charming person you're ever gonna meet. And he does all of that, like, on purpose.

• 13:26Adam Skolnick?

  That was hilarious.

• 13:27Rich Roll?

  So I went up, I went up and saw Dan in Santa Barbara the other day and rode mountain bikes and went hiking with him, which was great.

• 13:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I saw that post. That's cool.

• 13:35Rich Roll?

  He's such a beautiful guy.

• 13:37Adam Skolnick?

  He's awesome.

• 13:38Rich Roll?

  In any event, the book, Voicing Change-

• 13:42Adam Skolnick?

  He's in that book.

• 13:43Rich Roll?

  Dan is in that book. Matthew is not, but he will be in a future iteration of it, I suspect.

• 13:48Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, volume two.

• 13:49Rich Roll?

  Voicing Change is this book that I basically completed during the pandemic that we're self-publishing. It's essentially a compendium of the podcast, timeless wisdom and inspiration lifted from the show itself. And the motivation behind it really was to create a keepsake for the fans, or a way to go back to meaningful episodes and see those words that were uttered auditorily, obviously, in print as a reminder, and also as an introduction to people who are not familiar with the show, to get a sense or an idea of what it's all about. So basically, we took 50 guests that we've had over the

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  years, which was no small- Thing to try to figure out who would be most appropriate.

• 14:39Adam Skolnick?

  How many years again?

• 14:40Rich Roll?

  There's going to be people, it's been eight years, we're coming up on eight years. Yeah, there's going to be people missing that are certain people's favorites, et cetera. Like you can't, you know, it's like 50 out of 550, you know, you're not going to be able to hit everyone. But I think we got it, we canvassed a really good cross section of the people that we've had. And we transcribed all of those episodes and we took out, we lifted out the most kind of relevant, pertinent, impactful things that those people said, we put that in there. I wrote introductions for each of the guests. Some of the guests contributed essays like Russell Brand, Mishka Shubali, John Joseph, a couple of other people. And there's, you know, some, my friend Jeff Gordon, he wrote the introduction. I'm really proud of it and it's really a coffee table book.

• 15:24Adam Skolnick?

  It's a beautiful book.

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  It's a beautiful book. The idea is you can leave it out.

• 15:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it's like art book quality.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  So here's, for those that are watching on YouTube, here's the box that it comes in, which is kind of like a pizza box.

• 15:34Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 15:35Rich Roll?

  You open it up, here's the book, just like that. You lift the book out, I'll just take this one. And you can see, I'm not going to go through the whole thing, especially for people that are listening, but you can see it's, you know, there's beautiful photographs. It's really, you know, meant to be open to any page and you can kind of enjoy.

• 15:56Adam Skolnick?

  Was it hard to figure out the lineup? Like, did you move the pieces around, like where to put the different people and like, build a crescendo or like have, or did you put all the athletes in one section, all the?

• 16:07Rich Roll?

  No, we curated it. I tried to mix it up, kind of like the way that we do on the podcast itself, like not, not too much of any one thing in a row.

• 16:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 16:15Rich Roll?

  And, you know, making sure that there's a, an appropriate ratio of, you know, males to females and, and the like, so I'm really proud of it. It was certainly a team effort. Everybody, you know, who, who I work with on the show worked very hard to put it on. I didn't do it myself, so very excited about it. It is officially available for pre-order now.

• 16:38Adam Skolnick?

  Pre-order.

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  Exclusively on my website. We're not selling it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Like I said, we're self-publishing it.

• 16:43Adam Skolnick?

  You're going to ship it from?

• 16:44Rich Roll?

  We're shipping globally, you can ship anywhere. We have flat shipping within the United States for $10. And of course, it's more expensive if you're international.

• 16:52Adam Skolnick?

  And it's only a print book, right?

• 16:53Rich Roll?

  Only print, yeah, only print, no Kindle or digital.

• 16:57Adam Skolnick?

  You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me, I remember when I was younger, I was like, super stoked on this Playboy interview. Collection, like anthology, it was like 50 years of the Playboy interviews. And that's what I think about with this book, but obviously from your, your perspective. Cause I've always told people, I think you're one of the best interviewers in all of broadcasting.

• 17:21Rich Roll?

  That's how you got this job.

• 17:23Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, did I?

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  By pandering, pandering to my ego.

• 17:26Adam Skolnick?

  Have I told you that? You got those emails?

• 17:31Adam Skolnick?

  So, yeah, so I think it's, it's so perfect to, to have, have that kind of a, as like a complimentary to the podcasts that are coming out. You can go back and look at your favorites. You know, I know, I, I think of some of my favorite episodes still, so.

• 17:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, it's, it's really, you know, just a, a way to canonize

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  the mission of the show to further honor all the guests. And also to honor the audience, you know, to give them a little piece of this.

• 18:05Adam Skolnick?

  Do the guests know that they're in this beautiful book?

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, we had to get releases from them. Yeah, they're, they all know and they're all being shipped a book right now.

• 18:14Adam Skolnick?

  They're not gonna be surprised.

• 18:17Adam Skolnick?

  That Roll guy put me in his book.

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  Right. No, they all had to sign off on it, including your boy Goggins. We're gonna talk a little bit more about him in a minute. The book is shipping November 10th, but it is, like I said, available for preorder now. So if you want to learn more about it and reserve your copy, go to richroll.com slash VC or voicingchange.com.

• 18:40Adam Skolnick?

  I like it.

• 18:41Rich Roll?

  Check it out. Super proud of it and I want to thank everybody who I worked with, who worked very hard to create it. It's a beautiful book.

• 18:48Adam Skolnick?

  Nice work.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man.

• 18:50Adam Skolnick?

  There's another big thing coming up that we've all been thinking about. We can't help but think about it. It's everywhere.

• 18:56Rich Roll?

  Even if you're not in the United States, which is weird, right?

• 18:59Adam Skolnick?

  That's what's so funny is that, but it's not that funny, like, so the debate, people in Australia watch the debate.

• 19:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:05Adam Skolnick?

  And they like it because it's entertaining. I, I remember when Rob Ford was the mayor of Toronto.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:10Adam Skolnick?

  I loved Rob Ford's stories. I couldn't get enough Rob Ford's stories. I love them because he was so wacky and he, they couldn't get rid of him. And, and now we have, uh, not a Rob Ford, but we have our own situation where people who don't live here think it's hilarious.

• 19:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:26Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 19:27Rich Roll?

  With very real world ramifications.

• 19:30Adam Skolnick?

  With very real world ramifications. It affects everyone. But we have a week to go. This is a very unique moment in history. We've never seen anything quite like this before. I mean, because we weren't around during the Woodrow Wilson pandemic. What do you think? Where are we in this moment, Rich?

• 19:48Rich Roll?

  I think we're at a very important turning point in the history of our country. And I want to say upfront that this podcast has never been a political podcast. I'm certainly not a political pundit. And for anybody who's been tuning in for a while, there shouldn't be any confusion about where I stand on all of this. But in the event that it needs to be said, I'm casting my vote for integrity and for character and for the environment and for stability. And so I'm voting for Joe Biden, the Biden Harris ticket. And I think it's really important, irrespective of your politics, that you take a stand for

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  character and integrity and that we dispense with this narcissistic, egomaniacal, compulsively lying orange goblin and vote him out of office once and for all, so that we can move forward with some level of cohesion for the future of our country.

• 20:53Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, here, here, man. The way I try to explain it to people who are maybe leaning Trump, and I don't know that many, but I do know some. And what I try to say is, if you care about the ocean and you care about the environment, you cannot vote for Trump. Voting for Trump is the opposite of that. Because he's already trying to reduce the size of marine protected areas. He's trying to open up previously protected land to development. He's waiving environmental laws to build a border wall. There's so much, I could go on and on and on. If you care about the ocean, you care about the land, you care about animals, there's really only one vote you can possibly make. And that's not even getting to the part, if you care about people.

• 21:36Adam Skolnick?

  And I think the divisiveness that you're mentioning, it's time to vote for love over fear. One guy's kind of playing into this big, the big hack and helping to divide us and helping to hack us. And the other guy. He's not the most captivating candidate we've ever had.

• 21:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's not like, you know, Biden is the choice candidate of all time. I'm not saying that, but to the people who, you know, leave comments and point out all of, you know, Biden's misdeeds or, or, you know, his failures or, you know, why he's not perfect, that's not the decision that we're here to make. We're not adjudicating that right now. We're adjudicating between Trump and Biden. And so who is it going to be?

• 22:26Adam Skolnick?

  You know, Biden, for whatever you might think of him, and the debate stage is not necessarily the best place for him to reveal his gifts, but he is, he does seem like a nice guy, and we could use a little more nice guy.

• 22:39Rich Roll?

  He's certainly a decent, a decent human being who, who has a heart and is capable of compassion.

• 22:46Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 22:47Rich Roll?

  And I think we need a little bit of that right now.

• 22:49Adam Skolnick?

  I agree. But we don't know what will happen. A lot could happen. You know, I'm optimistic so far. The turnout in the mail-in voting is through the roof in terms of youth doing it. That is a good sign. But there's also this idea that mail-in ballots always skew blue. It's called the, what is it, the blue shift? And the night of the election, the election day ballots could be, could reveal a Trump victory at first that would shift later, which could be problematic. So we don't know how it's going to go. It could take a day to find out who won. It could take weeks. It could take over a month.

• 23:32Adam Skolnick?

  I think that we're so used to knowing that day, that, and somehow, if it takes longer, it seems more suspicious when in reality... It seems like the longer it takes, we should trust the result more, but we're just not wired that way?

• 23:47Rich Roll?

  No, the longer it takes, the more we sow distrust in those results. And I think two things. I mean, I think first of all, it's highly unlikely that we're going to have decisiveness at the end of election day.

• 24:01Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Rich Roll?

  I think that it's more likely than not that it's going to take weeks or months. So the election is certified on December 9th, right?

• 24:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Rich Roll?

  So that's...

• 24:12Adam Skolnick?

  Is it December 9th or 14th? I forgot.

• 24:14Rich Roll?

  I can't remember. It's somewhere around that time.

• 24:16Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Rich Roll?

  I think it's unlikely that we'll know before that date, but my hope is that upon that date, that we will have some level of certitude.

• 24:25Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  And the second thing is, short of a landslide and with the foundation that Trump has been laying around distrust of results, what happens in the event that, and I think, you know, potentially likely event, that he just decides he's not going to leave?

• 24:44Adam Skolnick?

  Right. So there's a great Radio Lab episode we can link to that's called What If that came out, and my buddy Reese Pacheco at WSL Pure sent me that, so shout out Reese. And they did these war games with some Washington insiders, you know, people who worked the Pentagon, people who worked for the Democratic Party, Michael Steele, the Republican, I think he ran the Republican Party at one point, a bunch of people that you've heard the names of, and some people you haven't, but have higher up in Washington. They got together and they did kind of war game scenarios, like where they'd actually roll dice, like it was a little D and D, a little kind of brainstorming, you know, war room stuff.

• 25:27Adam Skolnick?

  And different people got divided up into teams and they played, I'm Biden campaign, I'm the Trump campaign, I'm so and so and so and so. And they revealed, the two takeaways are, it is possible...

• 25:40Adam Skolnick?

  That a governor or legislature at a state level could send electors that are not bound by the popular vote in a state, although the Supreme Court has ruled that that's unconstitutional, that could still happen, it is possible. It's also possible that the Joint Chiefs of Staff can decide who they trust to give the nuclear codes to. And they have the power to take them from Trump and give them to Biden in a disputed election. So all these things could, there are what-if scenarios. I mean, I personally am optimistic about a blue, a big blue wave. But, you know, what do I know? I thought we'd win.

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:19Adam Skolnick?

  I thought Hillary Clinton would be the president.

• 26:21Rich Roll?

  Well, if we know anything, it's not to put too much trust in the way things have gone down in the past. And that truly anything can happen. And we need to be prepared for anything happening.

• 26:44Adam Skolnick?

  Which brings me to the new segment, The Quick Five. You ready for The Quick Five?

• 26:48Rich Roll?

  I'm not sure I am.

• 26:50Adam Skolnick?

  This is The Quick Five.

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  You're just springing this on me. I don't know where this is gonna go.

• 26:55Adam Skolnick?

  I'm gonna give you a subject, and I want a quick five takes from you. Five things from the top of your mind. Okay?

• 27:03Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 27:04Adam Skolnick?

  Quick five. So tell me why, explain to me why, no matter what happens on Election Day, whoever wins, even not Election Day, whoever wins the election period, why everything will be okay?

• 27:16Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Have you ever seen that Charles and Ray Eames film, The Power of Ten?

• 27:25Adam Skolnick?

  I have not.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  So it's a little short film that these, the designer, the legendary designer couple who create all the furniture and architecture created. It's, it's on display, it's on permanent display at the Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC, which is where I saw it as a kid, and I never forgot it. But it's basically a telescoping up from somebody sunbathing in a park in Florida, and it moves...

• 27:53Rich Roll?

  Upward in altitude at the power of 10, like every, at interludes of a couple of seconds or whatever. So you, until you see this person, you know, like a drone flying above them and then from the perspective of an airplane and then from orbit and then you just further and further distance yourself from them.

• 28:13Adam Skolnick?

  I like it.

• 28:14Rich Roll?

  Until you gain some perspective on just how small all of us are on this tiny little blue orb hurling itself through space. And our biggest problems are then placed into proper perspective. Over the course of history, you know, regimes have risen and fallen, you know, empires have dominated the planet and then been overthrown. Humanity somehow finds a way to prevail.

• 28:43Adam Skolnick?

  So that's one.

• 28:44Rich Roll?

  So basically, in the greater scheme of things, I think we're going to be okay.

• 28:49Adam Skolnick?

  In the greater scheme of things.

• 28:49Rich Roll?

  We're dealing with something that's very dramatic.

• 28:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 28:52Rich Roll?

  Not to, you know, not to like diminish, I think, the impact of what's going to happen can have on, on everyday lives all over America and the world and what has happened, of course. But we have air to breathe. We still have clean water to drink, which we're going to, we're going to get into more about that in a minute.

• 29:16Rich Roll?

  And we can all find things to be grateful for. And there are only so many things that we have control over. We can cast our vote. We can make our voices heard. We can assemble. We can do all of these things that we have fundamental rights to do. But ultimately,

• 29:34Rich Roll?

  we have to find a way to trust and have faith in a plan that exists, lives and breathes outside of ourselves and to continue to live our lives with some level of peace that we can't control everything.

• 29:51Adam Skolnick?

  So, let's see if we have five things. One is, this is all smaller than we think it is. When you look from space, this doesn't register.

• 29:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 30:00Adam Skolnick?

  Two.

• 30:02Rich Roll?

  That's kind of nihilistic, though.

• 30:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but I kind of like it. It's a little dark, but I like it. Then you have, we have the air to breathe, we have water to drink, if we have food on the table, if we're feeling safe, that's, you know, we can.

• 30:15Rich Roll?

  And we have each other.

• 30:16Adam Skolnick?

  And we have each other. Then you said something about, uh, what else?

• 30:21Rich Roll?

  The serenity prayer, essentially.

• 30:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Rich Roll?

  Understanding and appreciating that there's only so many things that we can control, and those things are very limited.

• 30:29Adam Skolnick?

  So if you remember that, and you control what you can control, then everything will be okay in your world.

• 30:35Rich Roll?

  Right. And also that every problem doesn't need to be your problem. And what I mean by that is, we're all, in some sense, victims of a news cycle that wants us to believe that every problem is our problem, and it ratchets up our anxiety, but doesn't give us a productive outlet for that energy.

• 30:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 30:57Rich Roll?

  Right? So we don't have to hang on every facet of the news cycle.

• 31:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 31:04Rich Roll?

  You know, I didn't watch the second debate because my mind's made up. I didn't really need to see it. I caught some clips of it later. But I don't need to be informed at the micro level on that specific decision, because I've made that decision.

• 31:19Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Rich Roll?

  And I don't need to ratchet up my anxiety and, you know, threaten my own sort of, you know, sense of equanimity over that event.

• 31:29Adam Skolnick?

  You made the right decision, because I was watching it with Zuma, and about 20 minutes in, he, he, he expressed exactly how I felt about it, when he threw up all over my shirt.

• 31:42Rich Roll?

  Right. And are you better for having watched it?

• 31:45Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  It's not as if you were gonna, it's not as if you were gonna change your mind.

• 31:49Adam Skolnick?

  No, and the problem, the reason I don't like it is because God, Biden's great, but he does have, because he has. The history of stuttering and it's harder for him, debate format's not a great place for him. And then Trump is the more commanding presence. And unfortunately, people are drawn to that. So if you're a supporter of Biden and you really want this thing to change, it's only going to drive your anxiety because you're going to look for reasons why.

• 32:12Rich Roll?

  A perfect example of something you can't control.

• 32:14Adam Skolnick?

  Right. But the one thing I would also, that's great, by the way, what you just said is that like basically keep it into you. You can't make the world's problems, your problems all the time. You got to get through your day. Um, and that, and that's one way, making it okay, right? You have, you do have the control to make your life okay, to make your life better on the, on the individual level. At least we do here. And that's one thing I think, um, a fifth thing, I'll add a fifth thing for you is that. Remember when the COVID started and like the empty, there were empty shelves everywhere in the grocery store. And people were terrified that like, you know, they were building the remote hospital at Doc Wyler State Beach. And I was joke texting with my buddy. I'm like, hey dude, if I end up in a trailer in Doc Wyler, please come get me.

• 32:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 33:00Adam Skolnick?

  And he's like, me too. And so that kind of thing was happening and we were, we were all kind of wondering what was going to happen next. But the food systems did not break down. The power systems did not break down. We did not break down. We had people step up. We had people in hospitals step up. There are good people throughout this country, in every city, in every town, trying to make it work. And not trying to divide, but trying to make it work. And that is what I rely on. We are bent, but we are not broken. And no matter what happens, we won't, we, we won't be broken. And that's, that's my, uh, I believe that we won't. And so that kind of faith I have, um, it's not even a spiritual faith. It's just faith on what I've seen with the caliber of people that do exist in this country on, in both parties.

• 33:46Adam Skolnick?

  And that we, we can be bent, but we're not going to break. And, um, that's what's happened so far.

• 33:51Rich Roll?

  I think that's a great point.

• 33:52Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Rich Roll?

  I believe we talked about this previously. I can't recall, but we have this sense that, or many of us have this sense that, that Twitter and these social media platforms are a proxy for where most Americans are mentally, emotionally.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  And in truth, Twitter is like 2% of the American population. 2% of the American population is on Twitter.

• 34:17Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 34:17Rich Roll?

  And we overindex for the importance of the conversations that are going on there as a litmus test for the conversations that are going on at, you know, the Panera breads across America. And I just don't think it's accurate. And as somebody who, you know, just traveled and was in a bunch of airports and, you know, talking to a lot of people along the way, I'm always left hopeful from those exchanges, realizing that the tactile one-on-ones that you have with people when you go out on the road are very different from the picture that gets cast on social media, which gives us, you know, this, this sense that we're more fractured than I think we actually are.

• 35:02Rich Roll?

  And I think we are being tested and our systems, our institutions are being challenged and they are being bent. But I have faith in our democratic processes and I think that democracy is more resilient than perhaps we are willing to trust at the moment. And we're going to find out. But I don't think that we're on the precipice of democracy completely failing. I don't believe that.

• 35:30Adam Skolnick?

  And even though we talked about kindling and civil war, I don't think we're going to have that either because quite frankly, that takes a lot of effort. And Americans are not really going to leave Netflix and the couch to go fight a civil war over a presidential candidate.

• 35:46Rich Roll?

  I suspect there'll be, whatever happens, there'll be skirmishes.

• 35:49Adam Skolnick?

  There'll be skirmishes.

• 35:49Rich Roll?

  But I don't see that escalating into, you know, some kind of systemic cultural warfare that's going to, you know, betray our institutions wholesale.

• 36:01Adam Skolnick?

  I agree. And I think that what you were just talking about relates to that there was an op-ed by some political scientists that I read in the New York Times, I think the last couple of weeks. And it was that it talked about that Twitter percentage, but it also talked about that actually 80% of Americans don't, don't give a fuck about politics, even now, even with this, we're supposed to be so polarized, but 80% of Americans actually are not that polarized, they're kind of in the middle. And it used to be when I was, kind of really was in my activist days, before I was writing for a living, that kind of thing would be discouraging, because you'd think, oh god, 80% of people are apathetic. But now, like, it's comforting.

• 36:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, 80% of people just want to get on with it, you know? And that's actually comforting for me now. And, you know, I don't know what that means, maybe it's because I'm a dad now, or something, or, I don't know.

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  You're getting soft.

• 36:52Adam Skolnick?

  I've gotten soft.

• 36:53Rich Roll?

  Your revolutionary streak is...

• 36:54Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but my feet are still, are still not soft.

• 36:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Adam Skolnick?

  I'm not tenderfooted.

• 37:00Rich Roll?

  Well, we'll have more information in a week.

• 37:03Adam Skolnick?

  We'll know, we'll know, we'll know, next time, for the, for the election. I'm glad this, I'm glad it's happening.

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Adam Skolnick?

  But we're getting to the point.

• 37:10Rich Roll?

  And to kind of close this section out, I mean, just, you know, look, regardless of your political perspective, go and have your voice be heard.

• 37:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  Cast your vote, and participate in this democratic experiment that still is continuing to evolve.

• 37:25Adam Skolnick?

  Just know, if you vote for Trump, you hate whales and dolphins.

• 37:28Rich Roll?

  [laughing]

• 37:29Adam Skolnick?

  And baby dolphins.

• 37:30Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 37:31Adam Skolnick?

  Just kidding.

• 37:32Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 37:33Adam Skolnick?

  Well...

• 37:34Rich Roll?

  What do we got next?

• 37:35Adam Skolnick?

  Um, that was a joke, friends. So next, the big story, I think that kind of like this whole thing with the election, it kind of teases to this theme of, we need to be responsible for cleaning our own house, for taking care of our own shit, and like, making sure that we really close the loops within ourselves, and within our communities, and within our country. And this story kind of gets into that in a way, it was, it's a story about barrels of DDT that were discovered in the deep water, 3,000 feet deep, in the channel between Catalina and Palos Verdes. And...

• 38:15Rich Roll?

  Which is essentially, for people that don't know, just off the coast of Los Angeles.

• 38:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 38:21Rich Roll?

  It's about, what is it, like, 28 miles?

• 38:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  From Palos Verdes to Catalina?

• 38:26Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, and it's somewhere in the middle there, in the channel, and 3,000 feet deep, they, they dumped these barrels. Some of them were actually hacked with an axe in order to sink them, because they were floating. And

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  So they were just leaking DDT.

• 38:39Adam Skolnick?

  They're just leaking DDT.

• 38:40Rich Roll?

  This was in the 70s.

• 38:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, even before that, I think it was prior to the 70s, somewhere between the 40s and the 70s because it was over a period of time. But so this was, I think Pulitzer level reporting from Rosanna Shih. She's an environmental reporter at the New York, at the LA Times, excuse me, it's the LA Times story. And it kind of points out that DDT is this nightmare that never ends. For those who don't know, I'm not going to try to pronounce DDT. I'm not a scientist and I'd screw it up. Do you know how to pronounce that word? It's a very long word. It's the longest word I've ever seen.

• 39:10Rich Roll?

  I don't.

• 39:11Adam Skolnick?

  But it was, it first was synthesized in 1874, became a Swiss chemist, kind of discovered the, its insecticide properties. And then it was deployed in World War II by the Allies to control malaria and typhus among troops and civilians, mostly in the South Pacific. And, and then it was deployed as an insecticide, as a pesticide, all over the United States. And it was kind of responsible for the agrarian revolution, all this food, you know, the, people gave DDT props for allowing us to grow incredible amounts of food and export it.

• 39:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Adam Skolnick?

  And kind of fuel prosperity is what people thought.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  It was, it's basically the precursor to what would later become glyphosate.

• 40:02Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  It was the, it was the, it was the OG pesticide.

• 40:06Adam Skolnick?

  It's the OG.

• 40:07Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 40:07Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 40:08Rich Roll?

  And by the way, it's diclo, dicenoltrichloroethylene.

• 40:13Adam Skolnick?

  All right.

• 40:14Rich Roll?

  I believe is how you pronounce it.

• 40:15Adam Skolnick?

  So Paul Hermann Müller from Switzerland, he's the guy that first kind of found these insecticide properties, but strangely, he was not in favor of utilizing it as a pesticide because he knew that we don't know how it's going to interact with life and we don't, we don't know the long, and it needs to be studied for years. And he was right, of course, that, you know, that, that it should have been discovered for years because then sometime around 1962, a marine biologist named Rachel Carson, you probably have heard of because of her books Silent Spring. She was able to trace it or posited that this rampant use of DDT and pesticides in general were killing birds and, you know, not just any birds, but peregrine falcons,

• 40:58Adam Skolnick?

  bald eagles, lots of birds and, and like all of a sudden the sky was silent in spring. She was a marine biologist, by the way. Her book, The Sea Around Us, which was published in the early 50s, is absolutely incredible. I read it recently. It won the National Book Award. She's amazing. She's like on that Mount Rushmore of women in science with Jane Goodall and Sylvia Earle.

• 41:18Rich Roll?

  Right. And basically, DDT is almost entirely responsible for the near extinction of bald eagles.

• 41:26Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  Which is crazy.

• 41:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, it's crazy. And certainly it chased them from the Channel Islands here. And so basically, this company in LA after the war, Montrose Chemical Corporation, opened a plant in Torrance in Southern California here, and they cashed in big on the DDT. You kind of boom. The US used to make 80 million pounds of DDT every year. It's incredible. And then anyway, 19, after Carson's book, 1972, finally a law was passed saying you can't use DDT anymore. It was, it was traced to harming the environment and

• 42:02Rich Roll?

  And human health.

• 42:03Adam Skolnick?

  And human health. And then, um, yeah. So it's crazy. Basically, there was, some of that DDT was getting into the sewage system and flowing offshore right around Palos Verdes in 200 foot deep water, very close to shore. That became a super fun sight. And that was very, you know, Montrose Chemical Company and the EPA were in a big legal battle over that. But no one really paid attention to the fact they were also dumping barrels of the stuff in the deep water. That was kind of, nobody even knew about it until like seven years ago, five to seven years ago.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  And at the time, it was legal to do so?

• 42:37Adam Skolnick?

  It was legal to do so. It was legal because

• 42:39Rich Roll?

  You could just go out into the ocean and dump whatever because the ocean is so vast, it'll just absorb whatever toxicity it's faced with. And it reminds me of That scene in Mad Men. Do you remember?

• 42:51Adam Skolnick?

  Which one?

• 42:52Rich Roll?

  There's one scene in one of the episodes where they're having a picnic, like on a park. And they've got all this food out and like fast food or whatever. And then when they're done, they just get up and walk away and they just leave all their garbage sitting there on the park.

• 43:06Adam Skolnick?

  But the trapezoids were kind of greedy people.

• 43:08Rich Roll?

  But that was a cultural moray of the time. People used to just throw their paper drink cup out the window when they were driving and never think twice about it.

• 43:16Adam Skolnick?

  Well, right, well, that's the big problem with the plastic in in Southeast Asia because it used to be when you went and got your noodles at the at the stall, it was wrapped in a banana leaf and you could throw it out and nothing would be a problem. And now it's in a plastic bag and for years, people didn't realize the problem is with now it's been corrected now, but it was a cultural thing that had to shift like give a who don't pollute has to happen everywhere.

• 43:40Rich Roll?

  So how does this reporter discover this? Like, this is kind of a big breaking story. I mean, it was published in the LA Times.

• 43:46Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  And they did kind of one of those beautiful graphic photograph heavy, you know, kind of presentations of it where it's it's very much a visual story as it is a journalistic story.

• 44:00Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, so I mean, I think that this an academic from UCSB had kind of was studying methane, not leaks, I guess methane seeps in the deep water and had had gotten access to a ROV, a robot that could kind of go down there and study this. And they they completed their studies and still had a little time. And I think there he had a hunch that there was something going on and there were barrels out there. I mean, he'd been following that a little bit. And he was able to locate, he and a research assistant were able to locate about 60 of these barrels, just leaking DDT everywhere and take samples. And periodically, people had been on to this story.

• 44:42Adam Skolnick?

  But what I think makes the report so great is that she spent the time to go back into the logs and was able to trace them to Montrose through the logs and through through kind of people had still had these files, they still existed.

• 44:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:57Adam Skolnick?

  And so she could trace it to Montrose. And Montrose had paid a hundred plus million dollar settlement to the EPA without admitting fault. And that had this, one of those beautiful legal kind of ties, ribbons on top, which basically is supposed to, anything you discover falls under.

• 45:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:11Adam Skolnick?

  Anything you discover, the feature falls under this.

• 45:13Rich Roll?

  So this discovery doesn't obviate that settlement.

• 45:15Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 45:15Rich Roll?

  Like, that doesn't expose them to any additional liability.

• 45:18Adam Skolnick?

  From what, from my read on that story, doesn't seem to be.

• 45:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 45:21Adam Skolnick?

  So, but someone's, yeah, so who's gonna clean it up?

• 45:24Rich Roll?

  Right, so now we're faced with trying to clean this up. And are these barrels, I mean, if they've been down there forever, are they still leaking?

• 45:29Adam Skolnick?

  They're still leaking. Apparently DDT does not dilute very well. There, it depends on the, on the samples they're getting, but one sample was 40X, the Superfund site at Palos Verdes, which I've been to that Superfund site offshore on a boat, and you still see people fishing there. I mean, it's like, that's, and that's the point, right? So, we treat the ocean, and it's not just us, by the way, it's all over the world. The ocean has been treated historically that way because we didn't have an understanding because the dominator culture that we developed in, that we all grew up in, does not look at things holistically, or there hasn't to this point, right? That's what we all want to push for. We want to push for a holistic view of land and life. And we've just never gotten there.

• 46:15Adam Skolnick?

  And so, but what that means is, like, people are actually fishing for, you know, in areas where fish have come up with lesions and tumors, you know, where sea lions have been found and dolphins have been found dead with a high concentrations of DDT in their blubber. I mean, this is all detailed in this story. And it just makes me think, like, you know, the way that we view, I mean, first of all, the ocean gives us our every second breath, and we're treating it like a dumping ground. And we just gotta change that, that has to change.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  Well, there's just this sense that it's so vast that we can't possibly harm it. And yet, you know, fishing has become overfishing by definition. We've, we've completely overfished the oceans. The, the statistics on the denigration of coral reefs are like staggering. I just read something like, the other day, about how half of the Great Barrier Reef is now dead, half of it.

• 47:12Rich Roll?

  We are past that tipping point where every additional strain on the ocean has very serious downstream implications and we've got to reverse this. It's unbelievable that we treat this resource in this way. And it's really a mindset shift as much as it is anything else.

• 47:31Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, we're, we're, we're at a point now where we know what the ocean does for us, right? It's absorbing carbon, it's, it's giving us food, it's giving us oxygen. We know that. And yet, even today, there are companies lining up to try something called deep sea mining to get precious minerals we need in our tech. And in, in, in remote South Pacific countries that are giving them the permits. It's all lined up to go. And we don't know the ramifications of the silt that's going to come up from that, how that will affect life at the deep sea or in the mid sea. It's happening right now. And we just make this mistake over and over again. This idea of short term gain financially for, for a long term problem

• 48:15Adam Skolnick?

  that we have to live with like DDT. They didn't think this, that's the thing is the people dumping this DDT didn't think it was going to hurt the ocean, like you said.

• 48:24Rich Roll?

  Right, but they were cutting, they were, they were, they were cutting corners. This, this was a shortcut.

• 48:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Rich Roll?

  And if the barrels didn't sink, let's just poke holes in them and let the DDT flow out. I mean, they had to know, like, this is not good, but like, who's ever going to find out?

• 48:38Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 48:39Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 48:40Rich Roll?

  And to your point of this being kind of

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  an example of the importance of

• 48:51Rich Roll?

  cleaning house on an individual level. It's the idea that these corners that we cut or these things that we try to push aside and rationalize always come back.

• 49:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 49:03Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 49:04Adam Skolnick?

  The DDT is always found.

• 49:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't break down.

• 49:08Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 49:08Rich Roll?

  Right? It remains there and it took many years, but it was ultimately discovered. So how do you think about how that applies to our individual responsibility?

• 49:18Adam Skolnick?

  Well, I mean, I think we as a culture, I see it in a lot of different places where we don't want to take responsibility because it's a lot of work. And on an individual level, sometimes we don't wanna do the little things at the house and batten down the hatches and, you know, like, put away the clothes.

• 49:38Rich Roll?

  Right, or put the recycling stuff in the recycling and do the composting and all of that.

• 49:44Adam Skolnick?

  We don't want to because it's a pain in the ass. But if you don't do those kinds of things, there are ripple effects in the future. You could look at the Supreme Court justice that's happening right now, right? Like, we're putting someone on the Supreme Court in a way that was, Obama was not allowed to put his justice on the Supreme Court because it was election season. The Republicans are doing the opposite, are doing the exact opposite of what they said was right then. And we're putting someone on the Supreme Court who doesn't tell us how she feels about things, and we've gotten to the point where it's so partisan, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg was 97 to 3 approved. Bork was 100 to 0 or something. And we're putting someone on there that it's completely partisan, just like Kavanaugh, forced through, completely partisan.

• 50:28Adam Skolnick?

  And these kinds of things have ripple effects, you know? Like, we're not, nope, both parties don't want to even clean, control their own house, their own damage.

• 50:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Bork was 100 to 0?

• 50:40Adam Skolnick?

  Something like that.

• 50:41Rich Roll?

  And he didn't make it because he smoked a little pot.

• 50:44Adam Skolnick?

  Something like that, right?

• 50:45Rich Roll?

  Right. I think that's what it was. It derailed him.

• 50:47Adam Skolnick?

  It derailed him, yeah, yeah. And so, I don't know, I think of the thing in, you have to clean your own house, or it will come back and bite you. Your house will burn down. And so, we're at the point now with the US where, where we do need to understand what we're doing to our land, understand what we're doing to our people, understand what we're doing to our food. We need to make big changes now because, you know, it's tick tock with climate change, tick tock with nature. And the more closely we can align with nature, the more we can vote in favor of the ocean and in favor of nature, it will benefit us in the end.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. It's not really a choice anymore.

• 51:28Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 51:29Rich Roll?

  You know? Which makes the election all the more pertinent because of this issue if for no other issue.

• 51:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Rich Roll?

  All right, let's move on.

• 51:39Adam Skolnick?

  Moving on.

• 51:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what do we got now?

• 51:42Adam Skolnick?

  The teachable moment.

• 51:43Rich Roll?

  We should point out that the Arctic Ocean still is not frozen.

• 51:47Adam Skolnick?

  Oh, right.

• 51:47Rich Roll?

  In late October.

• 51:48Adam Skolnick?

  A record date for no freezing, no ice in the Arctic.

• 51:52Rich Roll?

  I don't know why I'm laughing.

• 51:53Adam Skolnick?

  Or maybe not.

• 51:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:55Adam Skolnick?

  You're just tired, bro.

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  Because this is a film review podcast, right?

• 52:01Adam Skolnick?

  We had to do another film.

• 52:02Rich Roll?

  Documentary.

• 52:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 52:03Rich Roll?

  The documentary that we selected to talk about in this edition is The Perfect Weapon on Netflix.

• 52:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yep.

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  Which is a pretty compelling deep dive into cyber warfare, how it originated, the current state of cyber warfare, the implications of it, and what the future looks like. I watched it the other night. I was terrified at what I discovered and what I learned. How did it land for you?

• 52:33Adam Skolnick?

  My biggest takeaway is that I want to see the interview now.

• 52:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, the interview?

• 52:37Adam Skolnick?

  The movie.

• 52:37Rich Roll?

  The movie.

• 52:38Adam Skolnick?

  The Seth Rogen.

• 52:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:39Adam Skolnick?

  The Seth Rogen movie.

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  The movie is basically, it kind of traces the origins of cyber warfare and, you know, kind of breaks down what exactly this is about and takes us up to the present and how nation states are kind of weaponizing hacker communities to disrupt countries like ours. And it starts with a dissection of the Stuxnet virus, which is the first time that the United States used cyber warfare techniques in an offensive way.

• 53:15Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 53:15Rich Roll?

  As opposed to kind of, you know, defending our systems against being hacked. They actually were able to infiltrate Iran's nuclear program, which was completely blocked off from the internet, right? What do they call that? Like air gapped?

• 53:30Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 53:31Rich Roll?

  Where all the computer systems are not networked and not connected to any outside, you know, internet access? Somehow they were able to get a thumb drive into one of these computers and it disrupted their systems, but did it in such a subtle way that it was somewhat imperceptible and allowed the United States to kind of tweak with their machinery and their equipment to derail it.

• 53:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, grounded their reactors to a halt or something.

• 53:58Rich Roll?

  Basically, yeah, basically.

• 54:02Rich Roll?

  It begins there, then somehow it gets

• 54:05Adam Skolnick?

  That's the cyber pro harbor, right?

• 54:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, basically, and it gets leaked, this virus. Somehow it gets leaked and people become aware of what they, that's why we've heard of it, right? The Stuxnet virus. And the next time that it gets used, in accordance with the way the documentary tells the story, is with the, when Iran hacks the Sands Casino.

• 54:25Adam Skolnick?

  Right, because Adelson, right, Sheldon Adelson.

• 54:29Rich Roll?

  Well, he went on television and spoke sideways about Iran in a non-flattering way, something about how we should

• 54:36Adam Skolnick?

  Well, he wanted Iran to bomb, right?

• 54:37Rich Roll?

  We should deploy nuclear weapons to their deserts and who cares anyway? And that was deeply offensive to Iran for obvious reasons. So they patiently take their time, looking into his Sands Casino empire. This is a guy who's a billionaire, basically, and figure out a vulnerability, find their way in and completely disrupt his entire operation that way, really out of spite.

• 55:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, they took like, they were in there for like two weeks and like really took their time to figure out how to destroy it or something, isn't that right? Or is that the new thing?

• 55:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, they were very, they were, they were, they were patient. I mean, I think that's a hallmark of all of this. Like, it doesn't have to happen overnight. They wait, they wait, they wait, they do their homework.

• 55:22Adam Skolnick?

  And It cost them forty million dollars.

• 55:24Rich Roll?

  The important point being the asymmetry here. Because we're a superpower and we put so much money into defense, does not make us impregnable to these attacks that can be launched by a small number of young people who have advanced computer hacking skills. So it doesn't take a, you know, a smaller nation state or a third world country to be, to completely derail a superpower.

• 55:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 55:52Rich Roll?

  When you have this capability, which is not that expensive.

• 55:55Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right, and they were, I mean, these were state agents that did that. And it cost, I think, what did it cost them, forty million dollars, they said? And then North Carolina, North Carolina, North Korea, excuse me.

• 56:05Rich Roll?

  North Carolina.

• 56:06Adam Skolnick?

  North Korea did the same thing, right? When, because the interview was the next thing that queued up, which was basically a comedy about a guy with a popular interview show. That Kim Jong Un happens to be a fan of.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  Right. James Franco plays the character of a talk show host, a controversial kind of outspoken talk show host. Seth Rogen is his producer. The concept for the movie is, is Kim Jong Un is a fan of the show and wants to get on. So they travel to North Korea to have him on the program. And it's a satirical, and the government says, well, if you're going to do that, like, we want you to assassinate him, right?

• 56:45Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Rich Roll?

  So that's the setup for a satirical comedy that Seth Rogen and his writing partner sell to Sony, set up at Sony, and it's going forward. North Korea gets wind of this. They're not happy. And that's what sets in motion what ultimately became the big hack of Sony that we're all aware of, where all the emails were exposed.

• 57:08Adam Skolnick?

  And computers were, 70% of the computers were basically destroyed.

• 57:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:11Adam Skolnick?

  It cost them tens of millions of dollars. They had like a snipey, like producer gossip and racism accusations and all sorts of nastiness that was seeping out. And, you know, some of that leaked out to the media, but then some of it was leaked out to WikiLeaks. And that's one of the big takeaways for me for this is that WikiLeaks was very available to North Korea and Russia.

• 57:36Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:36Adam Skolnick?

  To do their bidding.

• 57:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 57:38Adam Skolnick?

  And, and I've always thought that about Assange. It's like, you know, there are people on, on the progressive left who like to think of Assange as this guy, he's all about civil liberties and let us see the dirty secrets of the governments. And I guess I understand that. But at the same time is he's got, he's basically become an agent for other governments.

• 57:57Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:57Adam Skolnick?

  With zero transparency.

• 57:59Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:00Adam Skolnick?

  And, I mean, there's no other way to read that. When he's taking fruits of Russian hacks of the DNC, which is the next thing that's in this documentary.

• 58:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:07Adam Skolnick?

  Or the North Korea hacks of Sony. I mean, what other way is there to look at WikiLeaks other than a political operation?

• 58:16Rich Roll?

  Right. So it fast forwards to the DNC hack.

• 58:19Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 58:19Rich Roll?

  And basically takes us up to present by demonstrating the evolution of these tactics from what were originally, you know, basically inserting viruses into networks, computer systems, to now a virus of ideas, right? By, by basically propagating.

• 58:40Rich Roll?

  Memes and other kind of, you know, ideas.

• 58:45Adam Skolnick?

  Fake news.

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  Into, you know, into people's social media feeds. The people themselves then do the work of the hacker for them by amplifying these messages that essentially pit people against each other and destabilize our institutions.

• 59:02Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, we've been hacked, basically.

• 59:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:05Adam Skolnick?

  We, as a people.

• 59:06Rich Roll?

  Not, yeah, not in the sense of our computers necessarily being hacked, but we've, our consciousness has been hacked. The result being the disruption of the stability of our nation, which is the, the, the goal that they're trying to achieve.

• 59:19Adam Skolnick?

  It's always been the goal, right?

• 59:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:21Adam Skolnick?

  And, and you even see that in the, in the handshake between Putin and Trump, where you could totally see Putin is the alpha in that hand, that famous photograph, you know, and he's basically, there's, they want, they want the country to flail.

• 59:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 59:39Rich Roll?

  Well, the alarming kind of takeaway and the, the reason for bringing it up is that this is not going away and these methodologies are only becoming more savvy and sophisticated, less easy to detect and more virulent with time. So it's not going away and I don't know that there's much that we as individuals can do other than to make sure that our own houses are in order.

• 1:00:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Rich Roll?

  In terms of our own security, et cetera. And understanding that anything that you share online is, is there forever, I think is also important. And to know that you need to approach the information in your timeline with critical thinking skills, because we don't always know where these things are coming from. Which brings up, you know, another thing that I wanted to talk about, which is the advent of deep fakes. There was a podcast last week, Sam Harris's podcast with a woman called Nina Schick, who is an expert in the emerging technology around deep fakes. And I think it's quite terrifying as this technology continues to develop and iterate

• 1:00:51Rich Roll?

  on itself, the idea that. Videos you watch, people can be manipulated to say and do anything. And it's not going to be very long before we bridge the uncanny valley and it will be imperceptible to the eye and the ear whether something is real or something has been fabricated. And with that comes the most virulent, virulent power to disrupt society. Because when you can't trust the veracity of anything that you see or hear, where does that leave us in terms of our ability to communicate, let alone run a functional society?

• 1:01:32Rich Roll?

  What is to prevent somebody from weaponizing that technology to pit world leaders against each other and lead us to the brink of nuclear annihilation? Like, it truly is terrifying. And much like doping in sports, the technology is always in advance of the detection methodology.

• 1:01:54Adam Skolnick?

  What do you think?

• 1:01:56Rich Roll?

  I think it's scary. You know, I think about my kids, my youngest daughter, and I wonder about the world that she's going to inherit, where when you see a video of somebody speaking, you have to think, is that really the person? Did they really say that? And myself, as somebody who's in the public sphere, who has recorded thousands of hours on the internet and been on lots of videos, how hard would it be, once this technology is, is adequately sophisticated, to make me say anything and have it appear to be real? So on a personal level, it's scary, but think about, you know, anybody saying anything.

• 1:02:34Adam Skolnick?

  I think the one takeaway I have on that is that, I mean, my hot take is that tech doesn't work that well, and hopefully it'll just won't, you'll see glitches. You'll see the glitch.

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  You would hope, but I would.

• 1:02:47Adam Skolnick?

  Fake ritual glitch out.

• 1:02:48Rich Roll?

  You know, listen to this podcast and you may, you may think differently.

• 1:02:51Adam Skolnick?

  I'm sure I will.

• 1:02:51Rich Roll?

  After listening to it.

• 1:02:52Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, that is, I will, I will listen to it.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Adam Skolnick?

  You know, one thing from the movie that I think could play to this is that, that the reason that we have such, we had a hard time with fake news here in this country, especially during the 2016 election and even up to the 2018, they kind of stopped it at the 2018 midterms. Was that there was this small office in St. Petersburg, Russia called the Internet Research Agency.

• 1:03:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:20Adam Skolnick?

  Which was basically, sounds like to me a state operation, but it was with like hackers that were going in and creating, not even hackers, but they were creating real Facebook accounts.

• 1:03:30Rich Roll?

  Like memes and yeah.

• 1:03:31Adam Skolnick?

  And they were like becoming, and they were ingratiating themselves into different forums and they were spreading these bullshit stories. And it, all the way up to COVID, this was going on.

• 1:03:41Rich Roll?

  And creating events.

• 1:03:43Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Rich Roll?

  In the real world.

• 1:03:45Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:03:45Rich Roll?

  Where they would.

• 1:03:45Adam Skolnick?

  Protest.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  They would, they would schedule opposing groups to show up at the same place at the same time for the sole purpose of fomenting chaos.

• 1:03:53Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And I think Clapper was the, was the head of intelligence at that time.

• 1:04:00Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:04:00Adam Skolnick?

  And I think he was under Obama and then he stayed on for a period of time. And he left and the guy that took his place, at least under Cyber Command, General Nakasone.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Adam Skolnick?

  I mean, we criticized Trump a lot, we should say this. Nakasone came in in 2017, I think.

• 1:04:16Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:16Adam Skolnick?

  And did a much better job and really cared about securing the 2018 election. And what they did is they went in and they destroyed IRA. They destroyed the Internet Research, whatever, is that what they call it?

• 1:04:28Rich Roll?

  Agency.

• 1:04:29Adam Skolnick?

  Agency, yeah. Completely destroyed it and made them, basically muted them.

• 1:04:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:04:34Adam Skolnick?

  In the run up to 2018. And, you know, he's like, that's what gives me hope when we were talking about before is that there's people like Nakasone out there.

• 1:04:42Rich Roll?

  Who understand it and are up to the task. I mean, I think the thing with Clapper is that, you know, this guy's a septuagenarian or what, he's been in intelligence forever. He's a traditionalist and these tools are unlike anything a guy like that had ever seen in his career.

• 1:04:59Adam Skolnick?

  Never dealt with.

• 1:05:00Rich Roll?

  And it's not his fault that he was ill-equipped to be able to deal with it because it's so new and different from. Traditional warfare methodologies that he was reared on.

• 1:05:09Adam Skolnick?

  Totally. It feels like a Gladwell thing waiting to happen. Like Clapper, the old guard who's like really brilliant and has had this great career, but couldn't handle this one thing.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  He kept getting, you know, he kept getting bested.

• 1:05:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Rich Roll?

  Even after he, you know, was apprised of what was actually going on. He was always playing catch up and coming from behind.

• 1:05:28Adam Skolnick?

  He was in North Korea negotiating for the release of prisoners while Sony was being hacked.

• 1:05:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:34Adam Skolnick?

  That's, that's put in there.

• 1:05:35Rich Roll?

  Right. Another, not necessarily relevant aside is that one of the primary talking heads in this movie, The Perfect Weapon, is a woman called Amy Ziegert, who is somebody that I dated in my twenties briefly that I knew. I haven't talked to her in a very long time, but she's essentially a genius. Graduated magna cum laude at Harvard, did a Fulbright scholarship in Hong Kong, worked at McKinsey, which in New York City for a couple of years, which is where I met her. Then went and got her PhD in political science at Stanford. I believe Condoleezza Rice was her thesis advisor and she became very close with Condi. And Amy has, you know, done a lot behind the scenes for, I think, a couple administrations

• 1:06:20Rich Roll?

  and served unofficially in a variety of capacities. Became a professor at UCLA and is now a professor at the business school at Stanford. And she's also a member of the Hoover Institute, which is a conservative think tank. But she's distinguished herself as one of the leading, world's leading experts on cyber threats, cyber warfare, cyber terrorism, and basically in counterintelligence at large. And it was just cool to see her in the movie.

• 1:06:49Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  Speaking so eloquently and informed about the gravity of this predicament, this situation that we find ourselves in.

• 1:06:57Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, she was great. I mean, the fact that there's all these brilliant minds kind of coalescing around this stuff has to be encouraging, although the deep fakes does sound scary.

• 1:07:06Rich Roll?

  It is.

• 1:07:07Adam Skolnick?

  But it's okay, man. You have a really cool podcast, so, you know, I'm sure she knows about it.

• 1:07:15Rich Roll?

  It's a cool podcast until the deep fakes make me say something that I never said.

• 1:07:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, then we're gonna get a lot of phone calls for listener questions.

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right, cool. So we ready to take a break for a minute?

• 1:07:28Adam Skolnick?

  Let's take a break.

• 1:07:29Rich Roll?

  We'll take a break. We'll be back with a little show and tell and listener questions and more goodness.

• 1:07:35Adam Skolnick?

  Boom.

• 1:07:48Adam Skolnick?

  Show and tell.

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  All right, we're back.

• 1:07:50Adam Skolnick?

  Hey.

• 1:07:50Rich Roll?

  Show and tell. What do you got for me? Well, we got the book.

• 1:07:52Adam Skolnick?

  You go first.

• 1:07:53Rich Roll?

  We did it already.

• 1:07:53Adam Skolnick?

  You go first.

• 1:07:54Rich Roll?

  I'm not gonna redo it.

• 1:07:56Adam Skolnick?

  He already did the whole book.

• 1:07:56Rich Roll?

  Voicing change. I had it all open here. What happened? It got pushed away. That's my big show and tell.

• 1:08:01Adam Skolnick?

  All right.

• 1:08:02Rich Roll?

  Get the book. But we already talked about that. So I'm not gonna belabor that point. What do you got?

• 1:08:06Adam Skolnick?

  I got my Goggins it t-shirt.

• 1:08:12Rich Roll?

  So David Goggins just released his schwag line, his apparel line.

• 1:08:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yes. In fact, I'm gonna take

• 1:08:18Rich Roll?

  Goggins it?

• 1:08:19Adam Skolnick?

  The coat off. Uh, Goggins it. You know, because it's good for me because the first I ever heard of David Goggins was on your wonderful neighborhood podcast.

• 1:08:30Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:08:31Adam Skolnick?

  And after hearing him talk about his 100 mile run, because at the time I hadn't started running again from a foot injury. And I thought, no, I can't. I, or no, from a, yeah, from original foot injury and I can't, I can't run. And, uh, hearing that, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna start running. And, uh, April and I started saying Goggins it to each other. Whenever you wanted to quit in a, in a workout or something like that. And so the fact that Goggins it is, is inaugural clothing line. Basically what was happening was people were putting out a bunch of bullshit clothes using like taking souls and using his kind of

• 1:09:06Rich Roll?

  Oh, they were kind of pirating his

• 1:09:08Adam Skolnick?

  Pirating. And sometimes, sometimes they would just put it out there. Sometimes they'd say, hey, is this cool? And he'd have to say no, and they'd have to scrap it. Um, I mean, even rock, even Sylvester Stallone put out round 14 t-shirts. You can go on Sylvester Stallone's website and you can buy round 14 t-shirts. Obviously, that's a connection to Goggins and his book. And so he's like, I might as well do it myself. And so he's got this great line of, you know, using his phrasing and he has a this kind of trident style DG.

• 1:09:39Rich Roll?

  Right. He's got this logo that's that's a trident.

• 1:09:43Adam Skolnick?

  And I've got it. It's in the blackout form. This is the logo and then taking souls in the back. And so it's his favorite, his best catchphrases. He's got a Merry Christmas shirt. It's great. I mean, it's fun. It's fun clothing. It fits well. I love it. It's so shop David Goggins, shop dot David Goggins dot com.

• 1:10:01Rich Roll?

  Good for him.

• 1:10:01Adam Skolnick?

  And I bought this, by the way, this is not, this is not schwag.

• 1:10:04Rich Roll?

  You didn't.

• 1:10:05Adam Skolnick?

  I paid.

• 1:10:06Rich Roll?

  He didn't send it to you as his co-author?

• 1:10:09Adam Skolnick?

  No, because I want, you know, I support, support the, support the fam.

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  That's cool. Well, good for him, man. Especially, you know, his whole thing is speaking gigs now, right? So with COVID, I would imagine he's probably not doing as much of that as he could be ordinarily. And.

• 1:10:26Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, he's doing okay.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  Got to make a living, is he?

• 1:10:28Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Rich Roll?

  It's cool. Here's the one thing, here's the one thing that, that here's, here's the one, you know, thing that keeps coming up for me, though.

• 1:10:35Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Rich Roll?

  Is would David Goggins ever wear anybody else's line?

• 1:10:42Adam Skolnick?

  No, he never did. He always wore plain.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, with anybody else's statement on it. So people that truly want to be Goggins-esque would eschew that, would they not?

• 1:10:53Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but there's something inspirational about him that like, for me, the Goggins is perfect because it's like, that's, it's something that I actually created. I thought of it myself, like, without even knowing it was something.

• 1:11:04Rich Roll?

  I think he's kicking around LA right now.

• 1:11:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Rich Roll?

  A buddy of mine texted me the other day and he, he was out running somewhere in Los Angeles. I won't say where. And he came across Goggins who passed him. And so he ran to catch up to him. And he said, Hey, David, can I pace you for a little bit? And he goes, No, I run alone. And he just darted off. Which I respect.

• 1:11:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:11:30Rich Roll?

  As somebody who enjoys my alone time running.

• 1:11:32Adam Skolnick?

  And he, uh, he's running, he was running only a few days after the 240 mile race.

• 1:11:37Rich Roll?

  Right. That's what's crazy.

• 1:11:38Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:39Rich Roll?

  Cause it's only been like a week and a half.

• 1:11:40Adam Skolnick?

  It hasn't been long.

• 1:11:41Rich Roll?

  Two weeks.

• 1:11:41Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42Rich Roll?

  Something like that?

• 1:11:42Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And I, I heard some stories about, about the race. It was, uh, yeah, incredible.

• 1:11:48Rich Roll?

  Taking souls.

• 1:11:50Adam Skolnick?

  He's out there doing it. And so, uh, yeah. So don't worry about his speaking gigs. He's

• 1:11:54Rich Roll?

  He's doing fine.

• 1:11:55Adam Skolnick?

  Selling some books.

• 1:11:55Rich Roll?

  Good. I'm glad.

• 1:11:56Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Rich Roll?

  Um, all right. What are we doing? Are we doing listener, uh, listener questions?

• 1:12:00Adam Skolnick?

  Questions.

• 1:12:00Rich Roll?

  Let's go for it.

• 1:12:01Adam Skolnick?

  Okay. Here's Randall from Nebraska.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Hey, Rich and Adam, this is Randall from Nebraska. I need to ask both of you guys, it is a question for both of you. How do you handle when you get burned out? I've been running primarily road running. I did my first marathon and I really thought I was going to make it to the end of the year trying to get 2020 and 2020. And I'm just feeling burned out and I'm not sure what to do to rejuvenate. I've been more vegan than normal. Just curious. Rich and Adam, how's that? Thanks for the show. I appreciate what you guys do.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  That's a great question, Randall. I think it's very relatable and also not surprising. If you do any one thing for too long, you're going to burn out or at a minimum get stale, right? And if you want to have longevity in whatever it is that excites you, you have to take breaks or you have to mix it up in order to rejuvenate yourself. So my first piece of advice would be to loosen your rigidity around the road running. Is there a trail? Can you go running on a trail? Can you get on a bike? Can you go do yoga? You know, virtually through some class online, like find a way to spice up your regimen to keep it fresh.

• 1:13:20Rich Roll?

  And ultimately, if all you're doing is running all the time, A, not only are you going to get tired of it, B, it's not going to make you the best runner that you can be. I think the best athletes are the ones that.

• 1:13:36Rich Roll?

  Are connected enough to themselves to understand when they're starting to get stale and innovating on their routine to make them a more resilient athlete through functional fitness, strength training, core training, other types of exercises, both endurance and strength oriented, flexibility oriented, that ultimately keep you engaged in your fitness journey. Because sustainability is the name of the game, right? If all you're doing is one thing and you're sick of it at this point, you're not going to be able to go the distance unless you interrupt that routine with new and fresh things.

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  Like, not to belabor Goggins, but look at what David does. He runs crazy amounts and I think he sets an example that most people are never going to be able to live up to. But he's also in the gym and he's doing pull-ups and he's improvising in hotel rooms and he's always doing things, I think, for his own sanity, keep him engaged in what he's doing by not it just being very monochromatic or one-dimensional.

• 1:14:44Adam Skolnick?

  And that's just his exercise stuff, but yeah, I mean, keeping it fresh in your life can be, I think, tapping back into the beginner mind and do something, pick up something that you're really a beginner at. And if you've run a marathon and you're good at distance running, maybe that's not it. Maybe, like Rich is saying, picking up a different fitness modality. But it could also be something completely unrelated to fitness, taking a cooking class or doing something completely different just to kind of refresh your mind. There's something about being new at something. This kind of hit me when I'd been kind of in the same old rut, swimming and freediving and riding, and that's kind of what my whole life was. And went and volunteered at the Wildlife Center near your place and was helping with

• 1:15:28Adam Skolnick?

  marine mammal rescue and feeding marine mammals. And I'm like, doing something completely different, I'd never thought I would do it, and it just completely lit me up. It was like so fresh and different and new that I loved it. I mean, even volunteering. So I would keep a real open mind. The new thing doesn't even have to be fitness-related, it could be anything.

• 1:15:48Rich Roll?

  Right. I think that's a great point. On the fitness tip, though, I remember when I

• 1:15:55Rich Roll?

  Finally retired, when I retired from swimming and like, I never thought I'd swim again. I was so over it. Like, the idea of jumping into a swimming pool just seemed like the last thing that I would ever want to do. And the idea that I found my way back to it and figured out a new way to fall in love with it was something I never would have predicted, but also something I don't think I would have been able to perpetuate if I'd just gone back to swimming. Like, it was triathlon, the mix of those three disciplines that always keeps it fresh. Like, if I was just riding my bike or just running, I think I would, you know, have difficulty perpetuating that. So, you know, that's an example of mixing it up within something that still is, you know, a sport itself. But the idea of going out of your comfort zone and trying new things, I think is super important.

• 1:16:40Adam Skolnick?

  Like, you hitting the gym with the weights again, throwing weight around.

• 1:16:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. And that, and that's also a function of feeling a little bit, you know, not rejuvenated around doing the same thing that I've been doing for like, over a decade at this point.

• 1:16:53Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 1:16:53Rich Roll?

  And this guy's run, you know, Randall, it sounds like you've, you've done one marathon. So, you know, there's an argument to be made that you're, you're still in the starting gate of this exploration of running. And the fact that you're already having difficulty motivating yourself, I think is a pretty strong indicator that you need to figure out a different relationship with this discipline that can keep you, you know, engaged. And a lot of it is, you know, I don't know him, I don't know you well enough to presume anything, and I don't want to overly project. But if you're feeling burned out after one marathon, perhaps you're putting too much pressure on yourself, or you're too performance oriented,

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  that it feels laborious or like a chore, rather than being something that should be fun and should bring your life joy. So, if you can recalibrate your relationship to it, so you're approaching it and embracing it from a perspective of joy and exploration and curiosity, as opposed to a rigid relationship where you're, you know, wed to your garment and caught up in the numbers and overly focused on performance gains.

• 1:18:04Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Rich Roll?

  I think you'll find, you know, perhaps an opening to enjoy it a little bit more.

• 1:18:10Adam Skolnick?

  I love that, your advice about trails, because it could be the road is just...

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, he lives in Nebraska, so I don't know what the trail situation is where he lives. But, you know, maybe there's still, still, you know, get off the road, maybe.

• 1:18:23Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Okay, let's hit Missoula, Montana.

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  Hey, Adam. Hey, Rich. My name is Robel and I'm from Missoula, Montana. I got kind of a unique name and I'm kind of just curious if you've ever met another Robel. Parents gave it to me and I have yet to find another one, so that'd be kind of cool to know if you know a Robel out there. But anyways, I had a question in regard to navigating, living in alignment with your values. I know that there's a lot of issues with corporations, big ag, all those things. But in terms of like corporations, would you consider it living in alignment with your values? If I'm not purchasing on, say, Amazon to get all my things, but I have a Roth IRA with stock in Amazon and I'm making money and I'm kind of vested in that community.

• 1:19:12Speaker 03

  I'm just having trouble kind of navigating if it's even possible to perfectly live in alignment with your values. And I'm just curious if you're that anal or maniacal about it, or do you just do your best part? Thank you so much. I appreciate your guys' work and roll on. Thanks, guys.

• 1:19:30Rich Roll?

  I don't know another Robel, do you?

• 1:19:32Adam Skolnick?

  I've never met another Robel. You're my, you're our first Robel.

• 1:19:36Rich Roll?

  Yes, the very first. You'll always have a place in our heart, Robel, for that alone.

• 1:19:41Adam Skolnick?

  Robel from Missoula.

• 1:19:42Rich Roll?

  Um, it's an aspiration. You can't, if you become overly rigid with these things, you're going to drive yourself crazy. The idea is to always be striving to improve, to bring your actions into greater alignment with those values. But I think if you're overly stringent or strident about the minutia, ultimately, you know, my answer is not dissimilar from the response we gave Randall. Like, you're going to burn out and it won't be sustainable because you're not going to be able to. Adhere to it over the long haul. And I think getting caught up in the details and

• 1:20:21Rich Roll?

  the minutia is to threaten losing sight of the bigger picture. So all we can do is try to tackle the biggest levers, the most important, the most impactful things that we can do to align those actions with our values and understand that nobody's perfect. We live in a material world. Nobody is living without making some kind of impact on the planet, deleterious. The idea is to try to reduce that. But if you lose sight of the forest for the trees and get caught up in like the diapers, like Adam was, you know,

• 1:21:01Rich Roll?

  we talked about, you talked about like the diaper situation with you and like, and being, you know, caught up in that, like,

• 1:21:09Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:21:11Rich Roll?

  But in the grand scheme of things, like you're doing more than most. And, you know, I would say, Adam, that you're in relatively very good alignment with those things. But not everything is gonna, is gonna fall into place perfectly.

• 1:21:24Adam Skolnick?

  My diaper game could be upgraded.

• 1:21:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you could.

• 1:21:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Rich Roll?

  Asher, my buddy Asher texted me, what's up, Asher, and said, said, tell Adam to relax a little bit about the diapers. He's doing good.

• 1:21:36Adam Skolnick?

  He might, that, thank you. Thank you, Asher. Asher, Asher, thank you, Asher. On the other hand, I've gotten like three messages this week, different advice, but always very kind and nice advice.

• 1:21:47Rich Roll?

  Helpful. Good.

• 1:21:48Adam Skolnick?

  And I will, we will upgrade. But I didn't expect to talk about diapers with Robel's question. I agree. I think, you know, it's, it's, it's always going to be a moving target. There's always, your life's going to change. It's going to expand and contract. It's, nothing is, is static. And so you do the best you can. I think there are ways to be the most impactful is, is kind of like bring your own and looking at your diet and things like that. That's probably, the diet is probably the single best way you can make a move on, on

• 1:22:22Rich Roll?

  Right. If you, yeah, taking, taking a tip from like the drawdown

• 1:22:26Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Rich Roll?

  Blueprint playbook, focus on the things that move the needle the most and moving towards a more plant rich, plant centric diet is a huge thing. If you can develop a garden and start growing some of your food, like, these are huge things. And Not getting caught up in like, well, I ordered this thing from Amazon and I should. It was like, yeah, there's better ways of doing everything, right?

• 1:22:50Adam Skolnick?

  I think that the interesting existential dilemma that he's pointing to though, which I share, is that the market economy is kind of problematic for sustainability. I mean, it's problematic for a more egalitarian society. The fact that the stock market dictates so much of the moves companies make is the reason that they squeeze wages. It's the reason that wage growth has not kept up with CEO pay even close. It's the reason that we have environmental problems and a political landscape where money is buying votes in favor of special interests. All of this comes back to the market economy.

• 1:23:30Adam Skolnick?

  And so if you're being good about not buying stuff through Amazon because of the extra packaging and you're vested in Amazon as a stock, what are you doing? And I am sympathetic to that because for a long time I wasn't an Amazon customer at all. I did become an Amazon customer now. To be completely transparent, a good part of my living is based on sales through Amazon, the book sales. So I'm a party to all of that. And I do understand the tension there and like, does that align with who I am? And to be quite honest with you, I stopped thinking about it that much.

• 1:24:13Adam Skolnick?

  And I just try to keep it more simple than that. But I like that, Robel, that you're bringing it up because I think it is fair to bring up and I understand where you're coming from and I don't have a perfect answer for you.

• 1:24:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think we'd all benefit from doing an honest, objective inventory of our behaviors and our kind of daily practices and how they implicate these problematic systems. But we live in a capitalist society and short of completely reconfiguring how we live our lives and the way our government functions, there's going to be things that we do that are not great, right? And all we can do is try to continually iterate on what we do to bring those things closer into alignment.

• 1:25:03Adam Skolnick?

  There you go. I mean, there are shareholder activists that kind of like that try to organize shareholders to go and push companies towards. A social or environmental goal, there is kind of that whole movement as well. It'll be interesting to see where things go, but I guess the short answer is not that maniacal or anal about it.

• 1:25:21Rich Roll?

  Right, but Robel could become an activist shareholder and start accumulating lots of shares of Amazon.

• 1:25:27Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:27Rich Roll?

  And then he can show up at the shareholder meeting and make a big stink.

• 1:25:30Adam Skolnick?

  And Bezos would have to talk to you.

• 1:25:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:25:35Adam Skolnick?

  All right. Last one, we're going down to Fullerton, California.

• 1:25:40Speaker 04

  Hey, this is Adam. My name is Evan. I'm 26 and I live in Fullerton, California. I've been a big fan of the podcast for a few years now, and as a graduate student pursuing my master of public health degree, your discussions are very inspiring. In my early twenties, I experienced some body dysmorphia issues and even developed somewhat of a binge eating disorder as a result of competing in bodybuilding shows. I was just wondering what your thoughts are on eating disorders among males and if this is also an issue that you encountered within the ultra marathon community. Over time, I've developed a better relationship with food. However, I believe that it is an issue that needs more discussion, especially among males. So, thank you both so much for taking questions and for all that you do. Thanks.

• 1:26:25Rich Roll?

  That's a great question, Evan. I'm really grateful for this question because I do think that it's kind of a sleeping lion or an elephant in the room that doesn't get enough airtime or discussion. There's plenty of conversations around eating disorders in females and it's almost never discussed how that dysfunction impacts men, but I think it impacts tons.

• 1:26:58Adam Skolnick?

  More than you'd think.

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  And tons of dudes.

• 1:27:00Adam Skolnick?

  I think more so now than ever with social media and everything.

• 1:27:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, 100%. So whether... You're a bodybuilder or a gym rat who's trying to, you know, basically, you know, inhabit an impossible physique, or you're a runner, or you're a triathlete, or a cyclist who's trying to drop weight and get super crazy lean. And I've been part of that community. I've noticed those tendencies in myself. I've seen it in other people. And basically, I think it's, I don't know if I would call it an epidemic, but I think it's a very real thing that doesn't get enough airtime or discussion. And I think it's important to shed light on the fact that it does exist, and it exists in numbers, I think, that would surprise a lot of people.

• 1:27:48Adam Skolnick?

  There's a swimmer I know named Antonio Argüés, who was the seventh ever to do the Ocean Seven, the seven-channel swims around the world. Mexican swimmer, I've written about before for the New York Times. And then I actually helped him write his book, which is published in Spanish in Mexico. And I think there's an ebook in English now called The Forever Swim. And he tells a story, is similar progression to you. He came up in swimming in Mexico and ended up swimming at Stanford. But when he was in high school, he moved to Northern California in high school, you know, as a way to kind of train and try to get better and make the Olympic team. And in senior year, his times were suffering

• 1:28:32Adam Skolnick?

  because he was a bigger guy. And he had, he had bulimia. And he never talked to anybody about it. He's just kind of recently started to talk to people about it. And he has a lot of heart for people who are like chubby or kids that are athletes. You know, you just don't see that many that are, there are a lot of great athletes that are just bigger guys. And so he had that a lot. So Antonio Argüés is someone I think you should look to. And, and, and he's accessible online. So that's the first experience I had with talking to someone about it in depth. And it was, he was suicidal. He had all sorts of issues with it. And he was able to write himself. And, and, but, you know, It takes therapy sometimes.

• 1:29:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:14Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:14Rich Roll?

  I don't know of a prominent male athlete or otherwise, who's taken this cause up to speak about it publicly at a, at a high level. Maybe there is somebody who's doing that, I'm not sure. But somebody certainly should. And I would couch this by saying that I'm certain that the eating disorder statistics would show that this is, this is a much bigger problem among women. Like the pressure on women to adhere to a certain

• 1:29:47Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:29:47Rich Roll?

  physique and the appearance pressures that they're shouldering outweighs what males endure for sure.

• 1:29:54Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 1:29:54Rich Roll?

  So I want to be sensitive to that. But at the same time, I think it's important to acknowledge that this is a very real problem among males. And I think, you know, Instagram culture is exacerbating this. When you see ripped dudes and photoshopped images of, of guys. And I think there is more pressure on men and young men to look a certain way. And there's a more robust, like, kind of body conscious culture around males than there used to be, maybe even five or 10 years ago.

• 1:30:23Adam Skolnick?

  No doubt about it.

• 1:30:24Rich Roll?

  So let's talk about this more. I should, I should maybe try to find somebody to come on the podcast and talk about it. I mean, I've talked about this with some women athletes. I had Amelia Boone on and I had Dotsey Bausch, but I've never had a guy come on to talk about this.

• 1:30:37Adam Skolnick?

  Totally affects performance. I mean, Antonio, he writes about it in his book, all about his experience at senior year level. And he was trying to compete for an Olympic spot at that point, you know, like, and, and to see his times erode. Took a while, though. He was able to still succeed for a while before his body really started to suffer.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  Break down.

• 1:30:55Adam Skolnick?

  Break down.

• 1:30:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:57Adam Skolnick?

  I think it's a great question and I appreciate your kind of being open on this subject. And I wanted to say to all the young listeners out there, I do feel for you guys. This, this COVID thing is just continuing to drag on. It's a real bummer. And I feel for like people seven to 27, you know, to be honest with you. Like, I can't imagine having to deal with that at a young age.

• 1:31:19Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:31:20Adam Skolnick?

  You know, when I, you know, I mean, it's easier for us because we have a stable life and we have way, we don't, we're not, we're not in that, like, young people need the community a little bit even more and rely on it. And, and so I really feel for you guys and, and thinking about you guys.

• 1:31:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:31:40Rich Roll?

  I had a final thought I wanted to share about that.

• 1:31:43Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  I think, oh, well, two things. First of all, in the case of the guy that you wrote about, one of the good things is that when you become a marathon swimmer, like, you gotta get, you kinda gotta get fat.

• 1:31:55Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, that's right. He calls it his bioprene.

• 1:31:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you get to put on a ton of weight because you need that fat layer to keep you warm in the open water. All the open water marathon swimmers are like, big people.

• 1:32:05Adam Skolnick?

  They tend to be, but there's like, Kim Chambers even thinks that that there's, it's like the same idea with yardage equals faster times was an old concept in swimming, you know, in training, humiliating yardage. She thinks that's a

• 1:32:19Rich Roll?

  An outdated concept of marathon swimming. That's interesting.

• 1:32:21Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but she's just kind of, after doing it is when she's realized that.

• 1:32:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And when you look at sports like wrestling, boxing, MMA, and cycling and triathlon where weight is, you know, highly pertinent, whether you're trying to cut weight to make weight for a fight, or you're focused on your power to weight ratio, which is critical in cycling, it's all about like getting as lean as you can without sacrificing power and finding that, finding that inflection point. And most people take it too far. I got too thin at one point. I was like 158 going into the 2011 Ultraman. And when you're in that state, you don't realize that you're too light. Like, you're just like, I can get lighter, you know? And it's dysfunctional. And, you

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  know, I immediately put weight back on after that and have never gone to that place again. But I can see how it happens. And being an addictive personality myself, who's had issues with food, you can lapse into this and it takes on an energy of its own and becomes a thing before you have any objective perspective on it. And I think with dudes, you can hide it, or because there's not a permissiveness around talking about it, that it perpetuates more than it should because

• 1:33:41Rich Roll?

  You know dudes don't feel confident being vulnerable with other dudes like, hey, I have an eating disorder. Like you just don't hear those conversations in a male locker room or anywhere else. And to the extent that we can create a welcome environment for those conversations to happen, I think we could, you know, all be better off.

• 1:34:00Adam Skolnick?

  Evan's starting it right now.

• 1:34:02Rich Roll?

  He is. So Evan, thank you for that.

• 1:34:05Adam Skolnick?

  Thank you, sir.

• 1:34:06Rich Roll?

  I think we did it. Are we done?

• 1:34:08Adam Skolnick?

  We did it. We rocked another one.

• 1:34:09Rich Roll?

  I think this might be the most succinct roll on that we've done.

• 1:34:13Adam Skolnick?

  Is it?

• 1:34:14Rich Roll?

  We're gonna land this plane. How long have we been at it?

• 1:34:17Adam Skolnick?

  It's been a while.

• 1:34:19Rich Roll?

  Are you bored? Are you bored of yourself?

• 1:34:22Adam Skolnick?

  I'm never bored of my own, my own speaking voice. I could keep going.

• 1:34:26Rich Roll?

  I feel good. And as we head into the election a week from now, I maintain my optimism.

• 1:34:33Adam Skolnick?

  Me too. I believe, I believe, I believe in, I believe in three things. The Lakers, the Dodgers, and old Joe. One down, one on the brink, and old Joe bringing up the rear.

• 1:34:45Rich Roll?

  I believe in, I believe in myself, the American people, and our democratic institutions.

• 1:34:52Adam Skolnick?

  Vote for dolphins and rainbows.

• 1:34:54Rich Roll?

  Okay. Cast your vote, participate in our democratic experiment.

• 1:35:00Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Rich Roll?

  And we'll catch you on the other side.

• 1:35:02Adam Skolnick?

  Just vote. It's okay. We love you anyway.

• 1:35:06Rich Roll?

  I love you. I love you, Adam.

• 1:35:08Adam Skolnick?

  I love you too, Rich.

• 1:35:09Rich Roll?

  Good. We'll be back in two weeks with more Roll On. Until then, you can follow Adam at Adam Skolnik on the socials. I'm at Rich Roll. Pick up, or preorder, I should say, the new book, Voicing Change, on the new Rich Roll website, richroll.com/VC or voicingchange.com. Leave us a message if you want your question answered on the show, 424-235-4626. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube. You could check out the show notes, as always, on the episode page for this episode, where we'll have links to everything that we talked about today, to watch the documentaries, and to read the

• 1:35:51Rich Roll?

  news articles, everything that we discussed. You can also submit your question on our Facebook group. And that's it.

• 1:36:00Adam Skolnick?

  That's it, man.

• 1:36:01Rich Roll?

  Right on.

• 1:36:02Adam Skolnick?

  Be good out there.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  Right on, right on.

• 1:36:04Adam Skolnick?

  Right on, right on, right on.

• 1:36:05Rich Roll?

  That's right, man. To the generally heroic Adam Skolnik.

• 1:36:10Adam Skolnick?

  To the generally heroic ritual. I'm gonna call everybody GH.

• 1:36:13Rich Roll?

  GH now. That's the thing. Um, cool. I want to thank everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Ally Rogers for portraits. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. DK in the flesh here today.

• 1:36:33Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:34Rich Roll?

  For advertiser relationships and theme music by Tyler Trapper and Hari. Appreciate the love you guys. See you back here in a couple of days with another great episode. Until then, go to the ballots, cast your vote if you're an American. If not, if you're not an American.

• 1:36:50Adam Skolnick?

  Congratulations.

• 1:36:54Rich Roll?

  All right. Peace. Glads. Nostay.