Pod Insights The Sporkful The Mysterious Case Of Alpha Gal About this episode For the first 40 years of her life, Amy Pearl was a card-carrying member of the meat club; she literally had a credit card from the famous Brooklyn steakhouse Peter Luger. Then one day she ate a porterhouse steak, and nearly died. This week we join forces with our friends at Radiolab to tell the story of how Amy's mysterious allergy was identified by scientists.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dan Pashman? As someone who has been lucky enough to go to Napa Valley, I can tell you, it's everything people say it is. Beautiful scenery, quaint, beautiful towns, and phenomenal food and drink everywhere you go. I don't even know that much about wine, but I know that every glass of wine I had in Napa Valley was excellent. I mean, there's no bad glass of wine and no bad meal. Choose between hundreds of wineries, tasting rooms, and chef-led restaurants from a low-key lunch on a vineyard terrace to a full tasting menu paired by the winemaker. Plan your trip at visitnapavalley.com. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.
0:43 Dan Pashman? Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you.
1:00 Speaker 01 Sirius XM Podcasts.
1:10 Speaker 02 I wish that I could still eat anything. I feel like it's not good to have an allergy in the end. It's an extra worry that you shouldn't have to think about.
1:23 Dan Pashman? This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Today, we're bringing you the story of a friend of mine, Amy Pearl.
1:36 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:36 Dan Pashman? Is your mic on?
1:37 Speaker 02 Yeah. I'm getting, this is making me nervous. Maybe I should get my EpiPen.
1:43 Dan Pashman? Are you allergic to radio greatness?
1:46 Speaker 02 Not that I know of. I haven't been really exposed to it yet. Anyway, well, let's go.
1:52 Dan Pashman? Amy and I used to work together at New York Public Radio. She had this really strange story that she wanted to share. It's about her experience developing Alpha-Gal Syndrome. Over the past few years, positive cases of Alpha-Gal have risen dramatically across the US, and it's emerged as a major public health concern, despite the fact that many clinicians still haven't heard of it. When Amy's story began over a decade ago, it was even less known about it than there is now. Her story was a medical mystery. We collaborated with the podcast Radio Lab to tell this story. So you'll hear Radio Lab's former co-host, Robert Krulwich, and current co-host Latif Nassar a little later on. Anyway, let's get to Amy's story. Years ago, before any of this happened to you, just tell me, what was your relationship with meat?
2:35 Speaker 02 My relationship with meat?
2:37 Dan Pashman? Yeah.
2:37 Speaker 02 Well, you know how when you're little and your mom is like, "You can have any special dinner for your birthday." My dinner was meatballs. And she was like, "Except meatballs, they're so hard to make," so it was pot roast.
2:52 Speaker 02 And then Peter, you know Peter Luger's?
2:54 Dan Pashman? Famous steakhouse in Brooklyn.
2:55 Speaker 02 Yeah. I used to go there quite often and I live there and I have a Peter Luger credit card, so...
3:02 Dan Pashman? Are those hard to get?
3:03 Speaker 02 I, you know, I don't, I don't know how they give them out, but nobody seems to have one. I don't think they give them out anymore. But I mean, I was very into Peter Luger. I was living in Williamsburg and it just, it opened at like 1 o'clock every day. And you could just walk in at 1. They had an amazing bar. There was no tablecloths on the table, these old German waiters. They bring out your porterhouse for 3. They put a little plate upside down and then put the big platter on top of it so it's tilted and all the juice runs to the end. And then they like have this special double spoon thing that they somehow like scoop juice onto your steak and oh, so good. And also like the smell of burning fat from a hamburger.
3:47 Dan Pashman? What about hot dogs?
3:48 Speaker 02 Oh my God, I love hot dogs so much. When you bite into them and they're like clack and have like a snap. And like having a weenie roast out in the open air is just, it's like the, oh God, it's so good. Anyway, I, I was always very into meat.
4:07 Dan Pashman? What changed?
4:08 Speaker 02 Oh my God, it was terrible. It was, what happened was, I was having this beautiful, it was springtime. I was having a beautiful leg of lamb with some neighbors and we like put it on the grill and... It was just a delicious, beautiful dinner. And I had served with it some ramps that I foraged in my mom's yard. So we had this delicious meal and then, you know, I went home and I was going to sleep at like midnight, like a few hours later, and I just felt weird. I was like, God, something's wrong. I feel like really anxious, like something's wrong with me. And I went in the bathroom and I like look in the mirror and my face was like all weird looking. And I was like, I kept laying down, be like, I'll just sleep it off, whatever it is.
4:52 Speaker 02 But every time I lay down, I felt like I was gonna faint. So I was like prop myself up and I was like, oh, God, I was having terrible like stomach cramps and just like a weird feeling of impending doom. You know, but just like anybody, I'm just like, just get a good night's sleep, this will pass. I like splashed a little water on my face. I mean, I don't know what made me think this, but I thought like maybe a snail, a tiny snail was on one of the ramps that I ate. And it was like poisoning me somehow. You know, snails, I mean, they're probably poisonous.
5:26 Speaker 02 So I called my friends in the morning. I was like, hey, how you guys doing? How was dinner? And they were like, oh, so great. And I was like, really? So great? Nothing weird?
5:37 Speaker 03 No horrific panic attacks?
5:38 Speaker 02 They were like, and they were like, oh, that was so lovely. Thank you so much. Let's do it again, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, wow, I really had a rough night. And but I didn't think anything of it and I went on with my life, you know, just like, whatever. And then about a week or two later, I made some cheeseburgers. And I ate a cheeseburger and I was watching, um, Goodbye Mr. Chips. Really tear jerking movie and a good book too. And, um, about a couple of hours after I ate, I was like, started to feel really weird. Again, I was like feeling like I was like had to stand up. I was like, I think I'm gonna faint. I feel really lightheaded. I can't catch my breath. I feel like really woozy. But if anytime I lay down, I really felt like I was gonna faint.
6:22 Speaker 02 So I was like trying to stay sitting upright and I was like, oh, my God, this is very similar. I ran into the bathroom and I was like looking in the mirror and lo and behold, I had hives all over my stomach. And then they started coming out of my hands and I was like, oh, my God, something's happening. And at one point I did get up and unlock my door because I did feel like I'm gonna pass out, call an ambulance and then they're not gonna be able to get in. So, I mean, I was a little bit afraid of what was happening.
6:50 Speaker 02 And when I woke up in the morning, the first thing I did was Google sudden meat allergy, because I was like, this seems like an allergy. And the only thing that was the same was meat. And I'm going through, and like, the second thing that came up was this article that was like, Florida man has sudden meat allergy. I was like, oh, my God, I think it's possible I could have this. And so I made an appointment with my doctor. I brought in the article. I'm like, I'm gonna be this person, but I can do it. I had the article in my pocket.
7:17 Speaker 04 What, be what person?
7:18 Speaker 02 You know, the person who goes to their doctor with something I found on the internet. So I brought the article. It was in my pocket. And like, I got through the whole, like, checkup. And I was too chicken. I went, when I was paying the receptionist, I pulled it out and gave it to the receptionist. And I was like, could you give this to the doctor? So that was like, the best I could do. And then I did call my doctor and had a conversation with him on the phone, asking him if I could get tested. And he was like, no, there's no such thing as a meat allergy, blah, blah, blah.
7:51 Speaker 04 This is where our friends Robert Krulwich and Latif Nassar from Radiolab come in. So some people think allergies are just like, in your head.
8:00 Speaker 05 This is science writer Peter Smith. We got in touch with him after we heard Amy's story, because Peter is an investigator of many things, including strange allergies.
8:10 Speaker 04 And people are like, mushrooms hurt them, or they think-
8:13 Speaker 06 Wifi hurts them.
8:14 Speaker 04 Yeah, Wifi hurts them. And I don't know-
8:16 Speaker 05 And when our producer Latif Nassar and I got into the studio, and we told him about Amy's story, he said-
8:21 Speaker 04 Yeah, all right.
8:22 Speaker 05 I know exactly who you need to talk to.
8:25 Speaker 03 Hello?
8:26 Speaker 04 Yeah, hi. Thomas Platts Mills.
8:28 Speaker 03 This is Thomas Platts Mills, that's right.
8:30 Speaker 04 How are you?
8:31 Speaker 03 I'm very well.
8:32 Speaker 05 Dr. Platts Mills is down at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. He's a professor, and he works at an allergy clinic.
8:38 Speaker 03 In an allergy clinic, we're constantly sifting through stories, which not only you don't believe, but are actually nonsense, simply because-
8:46 Speaker 05 And he told us, in the last 10 years or so, he started hearing lots of stories just like Amy's.
8:52 Speaker 03 Right.
8:53 Speaker 05 Somebody shows up at the office convinced that they're allergic, all of a sudden, for no apparent reason, to red meat.
8:58 Speaker 03 The first time- Time I heard it was probably as early as 2004.
9:04 Speaker 05 And every single time he heard the story, he would tell the patient exactly what Amy's doctor told her.
9:10 Speaker 03 No.
9:10 Speaker 05 No way.
9:11 Speaker 03 No, no, no.
9:11 Speaker 05 It's not possible.
9:12 Speaker 03 Right.
9:13 Speaker 05 So what was wrong with these complaints? You know, in an orthodox medical way.
9:17 Speaker 03 Oh, everything.
9:18 Speaker 05 Everything.
9:18 Speaker 03 Adults don't become allergic to something they've eaten for 40 years out of the blue, and certainly not red meat.
9:27 Speaker 05 So you're basically saying to these patients, I think you must be making this up because I can't explain.
9:32 Speaker 03 Well, I don't, I don't use language like that. I say, I say they're there.
9:38 Speaker 05 I was, I was trying to give you your inner voice.
9:40 Speaker 03 Oh, you don't want to know what doctors are thinking in their inner voices. You know, you often think in the middle of an interview, is it possible that he's got, you know, some ghastly disease?
9:51 Speaker 06 Mad cow.
9:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, you know.
9:52 Speaker 05 The point is that when he'd hear a story like Amy's, he just.
9:56 Speaker 03 Didn't believe it.
9:57 Speaker 05 But then, everything changed. Thanks, oddly enough, to a cancer drug.
10:03 Speaker 04 This new cancer drug called cetuximab.
10:07 Speaker 01 In New York today, Martha Stewart was indicted on criminal charges relating to.
10:11 Speaker 05 This is the very drug that got Martha Stewart in all that trouble for insider trading.
10:15 Speaker 03 Remember that and went to jail for six months?
10:18 Speaker 05 Yeah. Anyway, very promising, exciting new drug. But then.
10:24 Speaker 04 Doctors were giving people this injection and they would just like end up on the floor of the doctor's office.
10:30 Speaker 05 In shock?
10:30 Speaker 04 Yeah, there would be an anaphylactic shock.
10:32 Speaker 05 Their hearts would start beating faster. They'd get short of breath. They'd get stomach cramps. Their immune system would start to overreact to something new and alien that came in with the drug. Basically, a classic allergic reaction.
10:45 Speaker 04 So the mystery lands on Thomas Platsmills's desk.
10:50 Speaker 03 Yes. So we were asked to look at cetuximab.
10:53 Speaker 05 To see if they could figure out what was causing the reaction.
10:55 Speaker 04 And he tests two groups of blood, a control sample and then people that have this allergy.
11:00 Speaker 05 And he quickly zeroed in on a particular molecule, a sugar that was part of the drug.
11:06 Speaker 03 This sugar, galactose alpha one three galactose.
11:11 Speaker 03 Or alpha gal.
11:13 Speaker 05 Alpha gal?
11:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:14 Speaker 05 As in a particularly great lady?
11:17 Speaker 06 Yeah.
11:17 Speaker 05 Better than the beta or gamma gal?
11:19 Speaker 06 It's like alpha male, but alpha female didn't quite have a ring to it. It's the alpha gal.
11:24 Speaker 05 Anyway, it seemed like alpha gal was the culprit.
11:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, and if you'd told me four years earlier that there's a whole lot of people out there who are allergic to this sugar, I'd have thought you were smoking, you know, vaping again.
11:39 Speaker 05 Because not only does this sugar alpha gal show up in the cancer drug, and this is where we get back to Amy, it also shows up in the blood of mammals.
11:52 Speaker 03 All non-primate mammals.
11:55 Speaker 05 So every time you eat
11:56 Speaker 03 lamb
11:57 Speaker 05 or
11:57 Speaker 03 beef, goat, camel,
11:59 Speaker 05 even
12:00 Speaker 03 tripe
12:00 Speaker 05 or
12:01 Speaker 03 pig's kidneys,
12:02 Speaker 05 you're also eating alpha gal.
12:07 Speaker 02 So I'm reading this article and it says like it's this thing called alpha galactase or alpha gal or whatever.
12:13 Speaker 05 So it made no sense that someone like Amy, who'd been eating meat all her life, would suddenly somehow be allergic to alpha gal.
12:20 Speaker 02 I just was like, this was so stupid.
12:23 Speaker 05 So, one day.
12:24 Speaker 02 It's getting to be barbecue season. I usually have like a couple of barbecues where I just do a whole pork butt and a brisket and like hang out all day doing it. And I was like, very wanted to do that. And I was like, I'm just gonna not eat meat and not even know. So I was like, forget it, my doctor will test me, I'm gonna test myself. So I was like, gonna be very careful. I got a thing of Benadryl. And I was like, I'm not gonna do it alone, I'll do it with my mom. My poor mom. And so I went up to my mom's and she's like really into food too. So she was like, oh, this is so exciting. I got two porterhouse steaks on salad stews.
13:05 Speaker 02 Did you explain to her what you were testing? Yeah, I did, because I had talked a little bit about it with her. So like, fire up the grill, do the porterhouse. I even think I like Instagrammed it as a joke, like, ha, ha, ha. This might be the last time you hear from me. But so, you know, we're having a nice summer day, just me and my mom, having our steak. I only ate like a couple bites because I was slightly nervous. And I was like sitting in the grass with my dog and reading a book and trying to think like, do I feel normal? Which, try it, folks, it's hard to figure out when you start asking yourself. Do I feel normal? Does this, am I breathing?
13:49 Speaker 02 Is my stomach hurt? Is something wrong? And I was like, after a while, I was like, oh, I feel pretty good. And the neighbor came over and was like chatting with us. And it was in the middle of that conversation where I was like, I kind of feel like I have to go to the bathroom, but maybe I just have to go to the bathroom. So I went to the bathroom and I was sitting there and I was like, oh, God, something feels bad. And then I was like, oh, God, I definitely, this is not right, something's wrong. And I went in to get the Benadryl and I took the Benadryl and I went on my bed. And in the guest room at my mom's, and I was like sitting on there and I was like, I just don't feel right.
14:30 Speaker 02 Maybe I just take a deep breath, I'll just stand up. Maybe I just put my hands over my head like this. Oh, that does feel slightly better, I think. And then I was finally like, I think we should go to the hospital. And I went outside, I was like, Mom, I think you have to drive me to the hospital. She was like talking to her neighbor like, what? Oh, my God, honey, what? Oh, let me go change my clothes.
14:52 Speaker 02 Change my clothes. Like, Mom, you know, she's not wearing the hospital level clothes. So I'm like, okay, hurry up, Mom. Mom, are you ready, Mom? And then I was like, while she was changing her clothes, I suddenly was like, oh, my God. Got my wallet out of my cellphone and I like threw it towards my mom's bedroom door. And I was like, here's my insurance card, call an ambulance. And I just like hit the floor. Eventually, the ambulance arrives and I got stabilized. I was strapped to the thing. I was in the emergency room like they were shooting me full of, I don't know what, epinephrine and adrenaline. And the little like 12 year old emergency room doctor runs in and he was like, "I looked it up on the internet. Alpha-gal, fascinating." "What?
15:37 Speaker 02 That's terrible. I've never heard of that. Could it be true?" "Yes, it's true." Like they're all having this discussion there. Then when I went back to my doctor after that and I was like, "Hey, just get out of the emergency room because they tested me for alpha-gal and I'm allergic to meat."
15:53 Speaker 05 So this is an allergy?
15:54 Speaker 03 Yeah.
15:55 Speaker 06 So all of a sudden, you're looking at the quote crazies and they're not so quote crazy anymore?
16:00 Speaker 03 Absolutely. We suddenly had a blood test. And of course, what turned out is all these patients who'd been telling us this story were allergic to alpha-gal.
16:14 Speaker 04 But it's still like a mystery.
16:15 Speaker 03 Right. There are.
16:17 Speaker 05 Thomas Platts Mills couldn't figure out why people like Amy, who had lived for 40 years eating porterhouse steaks at Peter Luger's with a credit card, why would she suddenly develop an allergy now? There's got to be some kind of trigger.
16:31 Speaker 03 Yes. So we were looking for anything that could explain it.
16:34 Speaker 04 It could be a mold. It could be a nematode.
16:37 Speaker 03 A worm or a fungus.
16:39 Speaker 05 But then he looked again and noticed that all the people who had had bad reactions to the cancer drug.
16:45 Speaker 03 They were in a particular area of the country. It was Virginia, North Carolina, Southern Missouri, Arkansas. No cases in Salt Lake City, no cases in Denver. Just smatterings down the west coast.
16:57 Speaker 05 So he turned to his technician Jake and he said?
17:00 Speaker 03 I said, "You've got to Google every map you can find and say what matches that area."
17:06 Speaker 05 Creatures or diseases that appear wherever the allergy appears. So Jake starts Googling.
17:14 Speaker 04 Googling and Googling and Googling and.
17:16 Speaker 05 And eventually he comes across a map that.
17:18 Speaker 03 Matches where the cases are very beautifully. The maximum area for Rocky Mountain spotted fever.
17:24 Speaker 04 So he made this little map and it's like the shaded dark areas of the country are places with Rocky Mountain spotted fever. And then there's like some stars where, you know, this allergy had appeared.
17:34 Speaker 06 Yeah.
17:35 Speaker 04 And they overlap.
17:37 Speaker 03 Ah, very interesting.
17:39 Speaker 04 And then all of a sudden, it clicks. Rocky Mountain spotted fever is a tick-borne disease.
17:47 Speaker 03 This is the distribution of the Lone Star Tick.
17:51 Speaker 05 And actually, just a little before this, it turns out, an allergist down in Australia, Cheryl Van Nuenen.
17:57 Speaker 07 First name Cheryl, S H E R Y L, Van Nuenen, V A N, and then N U N E N. And I'm from the Tick-Injured Allergies Research and Awareness Centre in Sydney, Australia.
18:07 Speaker 05 She says she was now being visited by all kinds of people who claimed suddenly to be allergic to meat.
18:13 Speaker 07 And whenever I take a history, so for example, I'd ask them, was there a family history of rhinitis, eczema, asthma, stinging insect allergy, and they'd say they've all been bitten by ticks.
18:24 Speaker 03 When we started asking patients, we suddenly heard the stories just out the kazoo.
18:32 Speaker 05 But at this point, Dr. Platts Mills, all he has is a map, some stories, and a hunch.
18:38 Speaker 04 Right.
18:39 Speaker 05 So what does he do?
18:40 Speaker 04 He decides, well, maybe I'll just do this to myself.
18:43 Speaker 05 He does what?
18:44 Speaker 04 He decides to test it on himself.
18:47 Speaker 05 Oh, my God.
18:48 Speaker 04 He sort of denies that he did it intentionally.
18:51 Speaker 03 I know I had no intention.
18:53 Speaker 04 I mean, I think he also likes to walk and amble and think about things.
18:56 Speaker 05 Right.
18:57 Speaker 04 So he goes for a long walk along the Blue Ridge Mountains.
19:01 Speaker 03 And I knew I wanted to be off trail because I'm actually rather allergic to humans.
19:07 Speaker 05 So he's walking and walking and walking, and along the way,
19:10 Speaker 03 Ah.
19:11 Speaker 05 he bumps into a whole bunch of ticks.
19:13 Speaker 03 And if you walk into a nest of those things.
19:15 Speaker 04 Oh, my God, this sounds like a nightmare.
19:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, absolutely. I got 200 seed ticks.
19:21 Speaker 04 Oh, boy.
19:22 Speaker 03 And then in November of that year, I was taken out to dinner, and the lamb chops were particularly delicious, and the French wine was delicious. And six hours later, I woke up covered in hives.
19:35 Speaker 04 He's got an allergy to red meat.
19:37 Speaker 05 All just because of a?
19:39 Speaker 03 Tick bite.
19:39 Speaker 04 Tick bite.
19:40 Speaker 03 That's right.
19:44 Dan Pashman? Coming up, more of Amy's story and the tick story. Then Amy goes back to the doctor a year after her first diagnosis to find out if she's still allergic. Stick around.
20:07 Dan Pashman? And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.
20:18 Dan Pashman? When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it, and let me tell you, family
21:00 Dan Pashman? of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear, All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar, and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.
21:46 Dan Pashman? Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket, and it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket, and probably a new one because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear it in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperature starts to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday Staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince.
22:31 Dan Pashman? Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show. Welcome back to the Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman and heads up Boston, tickets are selling fast for our show there on May 1st. What a guest lineup we have for you. Reporter Matt, who is our number one most requested Boston guest and a couple of more all-stars, Irene Chang Lee, co-founder of May May Dumplings, and Ian Koss, creator of the podcast The Big Dig. He's going to share a very interesting story about monkfish.
23:16 Dan Pashman? That's May 1st at WBUR City Space. Get tickets before they're gone. Go to sporkful.com/live. All right. Back now to my friend Amy's story. Like before, you're going to hear Radio Labs' Robert Krulwich and Latif Nasser taking the lead in some parts of the show. When we left off, Amy had just discovered that her allergy to meat came from a tick bite.
23:36 Speaker 02 A tick bite? Hang on a second, because like a few weeks before all this started happening, as I said, I was foraging for ramps in my mom's backyard and I had a tick on my, on my arm.
23:53 Speaker 05 Now, it turns out that not only was that tick bite a terrible thing for Amy, it was a kind of double tragedy.
23:59 Speaker 03 Hidden from view amongst the trees and in the undergrowth.
24:06 Speaker 05 And I think it's only right at this point to back up.
24:08 Speaker 03 Is a fascinating world of wonders.
24:11 Speaker 05 And consider the story from a tick's point of view. Okay. So.
24:18 Dan Pashman? I'm Graham Hickling. I'm a wildlife disease ecologist at the University of Tennessee.
24:23 Speaker 05 So I was wondering if you could help us tell the story of, in this case, the loon star tick that bit Amy.
24:31 Dan Pashman? Oh, yeah, sure.
24:33 Dan Pashman? So they start off in this little pile of eggs, perhaps a mass of 2,000 eggs, under the leaves.
24:40 Speaker 05 The proud mom who just gave birth.
24:41 Dan Pashman? At that point, she's just a kind of a withered husk.
24:45 Speaker 05 Meaning dead. But anyway.
24:47 Dan Pashman? A few weeks later, those eggs will hatch and this mass of 2,000 baby ticks emerge from under the leaves.
24:55 Speaker 05 And could I see them with my naked eye?
24:57 Dan Pashman? If you ran into a mass of them all up together, you would feel like you've got a little smudge of dirt, and then the dirt starts walking. And so they'll just climb up and they'll, you know, potentially all be on the same leaf or the same twig, looking for something to feed on.
25:12 Speaker 05 Now, one teeny little tiny problem for these teeny little tiny ticks.
25:15 Dan Pashman? Is that they dry out.
25:17 Speaker 05 So when they come up from under the leaves, they come up.
25:20 Dan Pashman? Briefly.
25:20 Speaker 05 And then they go back down, get a little water, come back up, get thirsty, go back down.
25:25 Dan Pashman? And rehydrate.
25:26 Speaker 06 So they like commute?
25:27 Dan Pashman? Exactly. And we refer to the behavior as questing.
25:30 Speaker 06 Ah, questing.
25:31 Speaker 05 So if you were one of these little baby ticks up questing for food.
25:35 Dan Pashman? While you're up there, you are essentially Velcro.
25:38 Speaker 05 Because on each one of your little legs.
25:40 Dan Pashman? You have little kind of hook-like structures, and so you're flat against the leaf.
25:45 Speaker 05 Sort of sniffing in the air with your two little front legs.
25:48 Dan Pashman? That can detect CO2 heat movement.
25:51 Speaker 05 So let's say one day you're sitting there on your leaf and you pick up the scent of a nearby mouse.
25:56 Dan Pashman? Mice are the potato chips of the ecosystem. Everything eats them.
26:00 Speaker 05 Which means you might be about to have your very first meal. So you.
26:03 Dan Pashman? Basically stand up.
26:04 Speaker 05 Stretch out all your little legs.
26:06 Dan Pashman? And do a tick dance. And so it's kind of interpretive dance-like movements.
26:11 Speaker 05 While you're waiting for that mouse to come just close enough that you can grab onto it. So you're dancing and you're waiting, and you're dancing and you're waiting, and you're dancing and you're waiting, and you're dancing and you're waiting.
26:28 Dan Pashman? To be honest, you are probably going to wait your entire life and die unfulfilled. Because.
26:36 Speaker 03 There are 2,000 of you starting off and a stable tick population. There's only going to be two of you that survive.
26:45 Speaker 05 Oh my gosh. So 1,998 little baby ticks are born.
26:49 Speaker 03 And then that's it for them.
26:51 Speaker 05 But let's say that you're one of the lucky ones. And one sunny day, there you are hanging out on your little leaf when you detect two incoming mammals. One is a 40-year-old hominid, the other is her dog. So you perk up, you thrust your legs out.
27:09 Speaker 03 Wave, do the tick dance.
27:11 Speaker 05 And say that you're waving and you're dancing and you're hoping and you're waving and you're dancing and you're hoping and you're waving and you're dancing and you're hoping. And slowly the dog's getting closer and closer and closer. And you reach out with one of your tiny little limbs so you can
27:24 Speaker 05 grab on and eat and survive.
27:28 Speaker 02 But the reason that tick ended up on me was I slept in bed with my dog naked. I mean, she's always naked, but I was also naked. I mean, that's not gross. I don't, I mean, does that sound weird?
27:41 Speaker 05 No, but what, but how do you know that's when it happened?
27:45 Speaker 02 Because I know that like I did a good tick check on myself and I took a shower and everything. And then in the middle of the night, I woke up with a itching sensation and I went to the bathroom and I couldn't really see what was on, like something was on the back of my arm and it was a tick.
28:02 Speaker 05 So as the tick is biting into Amy, what is it giving Amy that's going to make her allergic to meat?
28:08 Speaker 03 Well, actually, I need to stop you there, Robert.
28:11 Speaker 07 Hmm, difficult one, Robert.
28:12 Speaker 03 I don't know the answer to that.
28:15 Speaker 05 That's Peter Smith and
28:16 Speaker 07 Well.
28:17 Speaker 05 Rejoining us is Cheryl Van Nen and the scientist.
28:19 Speaker 07 It's all up for speculation.
28:21 Speaker 04 We don't really know, but here's the theory.
28:24 Speaker 05 So normally, when you eat a piece of meat, you put alpha-gal in your stomach and your stomach digests it and it's in your body and it's no big deal.
28:31 Speaker 07 But the tick cunningly
28:32 Speaker 03 Will drill into you, poke into you.
28:34 Speaker 07 And injects.
28:36 Speaker 04 It's saliva.
28:37 Speaker 06 We'll call that tick spit.
28:38 Speaker 04 Tick spit into its victims.
28:40 Speaker 05 Straight into its victim's largest organ.
28:42 Speaker 04 The skin.
28:43 Speaker 03 And tick spit has an anti-clotting factor, anesthetic, anti-inflammatory compounds.
28:49 Speaker 07 And
28:49 Speaker 05 We think
28:50 Speaker 07 The alpha-gal.
28:52 Speaker 05 Now Peter says the thing about the skin is-
28:54 Speaker 04 The skin is like this enormous like surveillance system.
28:57 Speaker 05 It's always on the lookout for invaders. So when the alpha gale comes through your skin, covered by all that bad, bad tick spit stuff-
29:05 Speaker 04 That's gonna really like set off your immune system.
29:08 Speaker 05 The immune system freaks out.
29:10 Speaker 04 Like, oh.
29:11 Speaker 05 Uh-uh. And the alpha gale, covered now in bad spit, almost sort of-
29:15 Speaker 07 By mistake.
29:16 Speaker 05 Gets labeled bad. And now it's on the bad guy watch list. So-
29:20 Speaker 07 Therefore-
29:21 Speaker 05 The next time you eat meat-
29:23 Speaker 07 The meat comes in.
29:24 Speaker 04 And then-
29:25 Speaker 05 The body unleashes wave upon wave upon wave of chemical attacks-
29:29 Speaker 04 To do battle against this alpha gale.
29:32 Speaker 05 And this reaction gets way out of hand. You've got so many antibodies, multiplying, multiplying, multiplying, multiplying, making you, rather in this case, Amy, feel just horrible.
29:44 Speaker 04 Right.
29:45 Speaker 02 I mean, it's very weird. It sounds like a science fiction movie. It sounds like the beginning of a science fiction, at least kids book, let's not go to movie. But like, it's, it's just strange.
29:57 Speaker 05 Which all goes to say that this really is a kind of double tragedy for Amy and her tick.
30:03 Speaker 04 Yeah. Cause ticks didn't evolve to bite humans.
30:07 Speaker 05 Right. We're a mistake.
30:08 Speaker 04 Like we have opposable thumbs.
30:10 Speaker 05 We're either gonna pull them off-
30:11 Speaker 02 I actually woke my mom up and she helped get it off.
30:14 Speaker 05 Or if they drop off, they're gonna drop off in a airport terminal or a Walmart car park or somewhere like that.
30:20 Speaker 04 Or a shag carpet.
30:21 Speaker 05 Or a shag carpet indoors and, and they're doomed. And for us, well, we lose something that historically, anyway, is a big part of who we are.
30:30 Speaker 04 Yeah. Because we, we have, we, we adapted in the grand evolutionary scheme of things to like eat flesh, to eat meat.
30:42 Speaker 05 Yeah.
30:42 Speaker 04 Yeah.
30:43 Speaker 02 I mean, I'm actually sitting here picturing a steak, but actually the thing, I mean, hot dogs, like wrap ramps around a weenie and roast, yum, that sounds so good, my mouth's watering. Weenie, weenies and ramps.
31:01 Speaker 04 Yeah.
31:02 Speaker 02 But I am going to my allergist tomorrow. Cause I did, you know, I was reading about this allergy a lot when I first got it. And I read that for some people, the allergy can fade away. So I'm gonna get a blood test to see what my blood level of alpha gale is. So I'm a little-
31:17 Speaker 05 So what are you hoping for tomorrow?
31:19 Speaker 02 I want to be normal. Again.
31:25 Dan Pashman? Coming up, Amy gets the results of her test. Stick around.
31:35 Dan Pashman? Hope you're hungry because it's time for some ads.
31:41 Dan Pashman? Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.
32:06 Speaker 01 No two businesses run the same, so banking for your business shouldn't be one size fits all. That's why Atlantic Union Bank offers knowledgeable guidance and tailored solutions designed around your goals. Whether you're managing cash flow, moving money, or protecting your business from fraud, we make banking for your business both personal and easy. Call, visit us online at atlanticunionbank.com, or stop by one of our local branches today. Atlantic Union Bank, any way you bank.
32:36 Speaker 01 Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange-traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.
33:19 Speaker 01 While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Broker Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.
33:41 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. From here, Robert Kralwicz of Radiolab picks up the story. He met up with Amy after she got her test results.
33:51 Speaker 02 So I actually did get an appointment with my allergist, Dr. Korn.
33:57 Speaker 02 Her name was Dr. Korn. She's really nice. So I got the appointment, I got the blood draw, whatever. And a few days later, my doctor called me and she said that my numbers were still really high. And I was like, "Well, how high are they?" And she was like, "Three." And I was like, "Three? That's not high." And she was like, "There's supposed to be like, one or something." So they had gone down, but they were still, you know, many times more than they should be. So...
34:26 Speaker 05 But when you left and you were waiting for the call, were you waiting with the hope that you would soon be eating a bit of hot dog?
34:34 Speaker 02 I mean, honestly, I was hoping, no.
34:37 Speaker 05 No?
34:37 Speaker 02 No.
34:38 Speaker 05 Like, wait a second, you are the great...
34:40 Speaker 02 No, but I was afraid that she would be like, "Oh, my God, your numbers are so low. I think you could probably eat meat. Let's do a food challenge." I would be like, "Ah!" Because like, that's such a scary memory. Yeah. I don't, you know, actually, just the other night, I was eating at an Indian place, and I was eating vegetarian, but like, I felt something and I pulled it out. And in the dim light of an Indian restaurant, I was like, "Was this bacon?" And I suddenly, you know, like, you just get this drop in your stomach and I'm like, "What time is it? Four hours from now if I..." You know, because it's, there's something about it being delayed that makes it so difficult. It just is like...
35:20 Speaker 05 Like a suspense movie with you as a victim.
35:23 Speaker 02 It's like, it could happen in the next three hours, or maybe not, I don't know. I mean, honestly, the only thing that, the real reason I want to be able to eat meat is so that I will be prepared to eat it in case of emergency. I mean, I went on a canoe trip in the Adirondacks and I was like, "Well, what happens if I get stranded out here? And like, what if I have to hunt, but I can't even eat meat? I would have to hunt fish. But then when the lake freezes over, what would I eat? I can't survive. Something's wrong with me." I feel evolutionarily challenged.
35:56 Speaker 02 This is what I think about before I go to bed every night. Would I be able to survive if I had just what's on me right now? A pen, underwear, my dog. And so, yeah, I mean, that's a real issue is like, it's not a real issue. Obviously, it's never gonna happen and live in Brooklyn. But I, I do, for some reason, I always think like, I want to be prepared in case. But, um, yeah, you know, I don't think I would go back to eating meat necessarily.
36:25 Speaker 05 Like, you are still more, more frightened than game, so to speak.
36:31 Speaker 02 Well, also, like, I wish I could be a vegetarian for ethical reasons because it's not so much just the eating meat, but just like, you know, the, the, the factory farming and that kind of stuff. So I feel like morally superior now. I can be like, well, I don't eat red meat. Of course, I'm forced to not eat it, but at the same time, I would if I had the, if I had the willpower, I'd probably go that way anyway. And then also, I think it's great. It's like, we're all evolving to be on this planet, which is getting harder to be on. And we know that meat takes a lot of resources and like, now I don't, now I'm not doing that. So like, the tick is helping me evolve into a better human being.
37:14 Speaker 05 Like, so, one could, instead of thinking of the tick as your teeny weeny irritating enemy, you could think of it as a guiding light, making the world safer to share with your fellow Earthlings.
37:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:32 Dan Pashman? So you may have lost your relationship with meat, but at least you have your moral superiority.
37:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, I am superior.
37:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:47 Dan Pashman? So that was Amy and Me with Robert Krelwich and Latif Nasr from Radiolab. As you heard, Amy got tested to see if she was still allergic to meat. And even though her alpha gal number had come down a lot, it was still too high. She was still positive for the allergy. But a year later, Amy decided to go back and try again. Just one hitch. Since that last test, she had gotten bitten by another tick. The research shows that could make her allergy worse. But as she headed to the doctor, she was still hopeful.
38:18 Speaker 02 I guess I feel like the numbers went down so much. And it's not like I would go back to eating meat, but I do wanna know so that I won't be worried. I don't wanna worry. Worrying is such a burden. It's like praying for something bad to happen all the time.
38:37 Speaker 02 Anyway.
38:41 Speaker 02 So no, I don't wanna go to... I love Dr. Korn though, but I don't wanna go. I hate the doctor.
38:46 Dan Pashman? But you're going.
38:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm going right now. It took me so hard to get this appointment.
38:51 Dan Pashman? You're like forcing yourself to do something you don't wanna do.
38:53 Speaker 02 Yes, Dan, that's being an adult. You'll get there eventually. No, I just, I mean, did you read, there is a great recipe in The Times for steak tartare? And it was like rustic steak tartare. And I like the image that that brings up of like a raw egg on a bunch of raw meat, sitting outside somewhere in the south of France.
39:17 Dan Pashman? Like in a forest?
39:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:18 Dan Pashman? Lots of ticks around?
39:19 Speaker 02 Yes. So I would love to be able to be like, oh, I wanna express who I am by eating steak tartare. But maybe that in itself is just a pathetic way to look at eating, which is really just fueling. But that's not true. I mean...
39:33 Dan Pashman? I don't think it's a pathetic way to look at eating, but I do wonder whether that's really who you are now.
39:39 Speaker 02 Am I steak tartare? Or am I kiboshia steamed with brown rice?
39:46 Speaker 02 I don't know.
39:48 Dan Pashman? Alright, Amy. Good luck. Good luck at your doctor's appointment.
39:50 Speaker 02 Thanks, Dan. Bye.
39:53 Dan Pashman? A few days later, Amy got a voicemail from her doctor with the results. We went into the studio together, so I could hear it.
40:00 Speaker 02 I hope it's either conclusively lower or conclusively higher.
40:06 Dan Pashman? Why would you want it to be conclusively higher?
40:08 Speaker 02 Because I wanted clarity. It's responding to the fact that I got bitten by a tick and going up. That means it's a real thing. That's like scientific and not some kind of space-age weird spiritual issue that's making me not eat meat. Like sometimes it just feels like, why is this happening to me?
40:28 Dan Pashman? Right.
40:28 Speaker 02 So if it actually responds to science, then I feel like... It's science.
40:35 Dan Pashman? It feels like there's an order to things.
40:37 Speaker 02 Yes, order is important.
40:40 Dan Pashman? You got the results. Before we play them, just remind us what your numbers were like. After your first huge incident, when you were rushed to the hospital and almost died, what was your alpha-gal number?
40:54 Speaker 02 I think after the first incident, my number was like in the 40s or something.
40:59 Dan Pashman? Okay, and then last year, a year ago, you had it tested, and what was it?
41:04 Speaker 02 3.1.
41:05 Dan Pashman? What is normal? Like, how low would it have to be for you to be able to go back to eating meat?
41:11 Speaker 02 I think 0.3.
41:13 Dan Pashman? So you, at your worst, you were in the 40s. You got down to 3 something, but to be able to eat meat again, you have to get down to 0.3?
41:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:22 Dan Pashman? All right, can I play the voicemail?
41:24 Speaker 02 Okay.
41:27 Speaker 02 Um, it's Dr. Corn, just calling to let you know that the alpha-gal actually came back at 11. So, um, it's still positive. That's the bottom line. And I wouldn't worry about the fact that it went up. The bottom line is it's still positive, and that's what we are really looking for, if it's positive or negative. Okay, I will actually put it in the mail and send it to you. Thanks. Bye-bye.
41:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:53 Dan Pashman? How do you feel about that result, Amy?
41:56 Speaker 02 Actually, you know, in terms of like chaos and order, I thought it was good. Because it definitely went way up. And so I feel like, fine, I don't have to think like, oh, it's slightly lower, maybe I should try a food challenge. Oh, maybe it will. I just feel like I couldn't go for a year without getting exposed to a tick, so I'm not going to get my hopes up again. And I feel like, I mean, scientifically speaking, I, in my obsessive reading about this, I did read that if you are re-exposed, it's much less likely that it will ever fade away. So I kind of feel like I lost that window.
42:38 Dan Pashman? But Amy, one option for you would be, you could say, I'm not going to go to the outdoors, I'm not going to go camping, I'm not going to go into tall grass for five years, and I'm going to see if the number goes down, and then I'm going to be able to eat hot dogs and steaks at Peter Luger again.
42:51 Speaker 02 I mean, I don't know, I love, I love being outside. I would never, it'd be terrible. Like, I don't want to think that I, no, I would never stop. Going out.
43:02 Dan Pashman? Do you remember the first time it hit you that you might never be able to eat another steak in your life?
43:09 Speaker 02 I, um, had this favorite, really nice roasting pan. I used to make pot roast in it all the time. I do remember the time when I was like, you know what, I'm gonna store this on top of the fridge now. When I retired that pot, I was like, wow, never gonna really use this pot again.
43:37 Dan Pashman? That, my friends, is the inimitable Amy Pearl. These days, she's a producer on the New York Times podcast, Modern Love. Next week on the show, I'm going to Disney World. I've always been curious about how entire worlds are created at Disney theme parks. I got special access inside Disney World to talk to the people behind the scenes, some of the rides and food at Disney. From the Star Wars cantina to Tiana's Bayou Adventure, I get a peek behind the curtain. That's next week. While you wait for that one, check out last week's show. It's a salad spinner with Kenji Lopez Alt and Judy Gold. This one was live on stage at the Bell House in Brooklyn, and it got raucous. Also, don't forget, we have a live show coming up in Boston. Tickets and more at sporkful.com/live.
44:21 Dan Pashman? And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This show is originally produced by me, along with Anne Sanni, Shoshana Gold, and Dan Charles. The new version of this episode was produced by me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern, senior producer Andre Sohara. It was mixed by Jared O'Connell. Our intern is India Rice. Music help from Black Label Music. Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM.
45:06 Dan Pashman? Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Thanks to Robert Krulwich, Soren Wheeler, Jamie York, Latif Nassar, Ariane Wack, and all of our friends at Radiolab. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
45:15 Speaker 05 And I'm Ari Strauss from Washington, DC.
45:18 Speaker 01 And I'm Christina from London, England.
45:20 Speaker 03 And I'm Randall Cooper of Nashville, Tennessee, reminding you to eat more.
45:24 Speaker 02 Eat better.
45:25 Speaker 05 And eat more better.
45:43 Speaker 01 Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.
46:27 Speaker 01 While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC. Tired of the same old game night? Switch things up with Chumba Casino. Play over 200 free online social casino games. From classic slots and blackjack to exclusive in-house favorites you won't find anywhere else. However long you got, you can play your way, anytime, anywhere. Make your next chill night a little more fun with Chumba Casino. Only available in permitted states. No purchase necessary. See terms and conditions for details. VGW Group. Void where prohibited by law. 21+.
Previous Live: Kenji López-Alt No Longer Calls His Recipes “The Best” (Reheat) Next The REAL Sausage King Of Chicago (Reheat) Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated