Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher Sen. Tillis Unfiltered: Trump, Iran & What’s Next For the GOP About this episode Since announcing his decision to retire last year, North Carolina Republican Sen. Thom Tillis has become a kind of thorn in MAGA’s side, holding up appointments and voicing criticisms about legislation favored by President Trump. But his resistance raises a perennial question about Republicans in the Trump era: Why do lawmakers only push back when they’re on the way out?
Kara and Sen. Tillis talk about his concerns over the Trump administration’s handling of the war in Iran; why he thinks newly confirmed Secretary of Homeland Security Markwayne Mullin will be an improvement over his predecessor, Kristi Noem; and why Tillis aims his criticisms at Trump’s advisers rather than Trump himself. They also talk about his worries about the upcoming midterms and where he thinks the party is headed after Trump leaves office.
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Transcript 12,506 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kara Swisher? You're a very good public servant, I have to say.
0:02 Speaker 01 Thank you.
0:02 Kara Swisher? Although I wouldn't vote for you either.
0:04 Speaker 01 I would vote for you, to be fair.
0:05 Kara Swisher? I'm not running. I'm just running my mouth.
0:19 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is North Carolina Republican Senator Tom Tillis. He's one of the very few Republicans willing to criticize the Trump administration right now. That's mainly because he's not running for reelection this year, in part because of criticisms from President Trump. Tillis has voiced skepticism about the administration's goals in Iran. He's refused to confirm President Trump's pick to head the Federal Reserve until the Justice Department drops an investigation into its current chair, Jerome Powell. And earlier this month, he also got a lot of attention for eviscerating now former Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem during a Senate hearing.
1:01 Speaker 01 We're an exceptional nation. And one of the reasons we're exceptional is we expect exceptional leadership. And you've demonstrated anything but that in the time that I've seen you responding to the emergency in North Carolina and across the Southeast and acknowledging when mistakes are made.
1:19 Kara Swisher? But Tillis is careful not to criticize Trump himself. He says the problem is the people around the president giving him bad advice, whom President Trump hired, by the way, but that's another issue we'll talk about. And Tillis voted to confirm some of those very people, like Noem, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, and FBI Director Cash Patel. I think Tom Tillis is super smart. He was an ex-businessperson. At the same time, you know, he's got the reputation of Too Late Tom because he wasn't saying these things, which I think he actually thought earlier. I think he's in a great position, though, to stop some of the nonsense, and he's using it until he leaves office next January of 2027, when his term is up. It's a shame that people like him can't say what they want
2:03 Kara Swisher? because he's actually very smart. I agree with him on very little. At the same time, I really do respect his intelligence, and so I was very Excited to talk to him. All right, let's get into my conversation with Tom Tillis. We've got two expert questions today. One from longtime Washington defense attorney Abby Lowell, who we've interviewed on this program and who's representing some of Trump's perceived enemies. He's also represented people in the Trump family, too, an interesting lawyer. The other is from a listener who's also one of Tillis's constituents. It's not every day we get a Republican on the show, so stick around.
2:42 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire. They fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.
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3:58 Speaker 03 I'm Anna Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloe Mal. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue, finding her personal style, and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Conde Nast cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.
4:37 Kara Swisher? Senator Tom Tillis, thanks for coming on on.
4:39 Speaker 04 Thank you.
4:40 Kara Swisher? I like your swanky setup here in the Senate.
4:42 Speaker 04 Yeah, I like it. They've done a really good job here in the Republican Conference.
4:45 Kara Swisher? Yeah, it's really nice. It's a good one. I worked here for Senator S. I. Hayakawa, also a Republican, when I was a child. And we did not have this. Anyway, a note to listeners, we're taping this conversation late Thursday afternoon, so things may have changed by the time you're hearing it. But let's dive in. Let's start with the war in Iran. It's something you talked about a little bit. President Trump is sending conflicting messages about whether the war is ramping up, or winding down, or we've won it, or they better talk to us. And Republicans are getting anxious, obviously. Congressman Mike Rogers, who chairs the House Armed Services Committee, blasted the Pentagon for not giving lawmakers enough information in these briefings. Almost a month into this conflict, talk about what's happening now in the realistic end.
5:30 Speaker 04 I don't think one's been articulated. And quite honestly, my response to the press over the last week, when they've asked me if I'm getting briefed, I said, it's less important for me to be briefed right now than the committees of jurisdiction. But when you hear a chair of a committee of jurisdiction saying it's insufficient information, that is unacceptable. I am looking at this initiative in Iran through the lens of the War Powers Act. And I'm willing to give my president a fair amount of latitude within 60 days. But we're almost at the 30-day mark now. And so there has to be very clear strategic
6:14 Speaker 04 objectives. You know, some of the tactical objectives, obviously, would have to be, to the extent that we need to know them, would probably be done in a classified setting. But we need to state precisely what we're doing there. We know why we're there to begin with. But now we need to know why we're going to continue to be there, or including considering having boots on the ground. I've got Marines from North Carolina and the 82nd Airborne. And so now I'm going to join the chorus of saying it's time. To get us in a skiff, it's time to determine what's next.
6:45 Kara Swisher? What does that mean for you? I mean, because one of the things was a lot of Republicans off the record were saying, you know, 15 days into this, it's too much. 60 days is your breaking point? Or would you vote for a war powers resolution?
6:57 Speaker 04 Well, 60 days is really prescribed by the war powers resolution. I think if, if we don't have clarity in, at the 60 day mark, then you either are determining that you're ramping down over 30 days within the, within the numbers of the war powers resolution, or you're there for beyond that. And if you're there for beyond that, it is absolutely reasonable to expect that you have to have an authorization for the use of military force to legitimize this. And I think you will get it if you're clear on the objectives and you're clear on what we're trying to do there strategically. And, and you need support for the tactics that you believe are necessary to accomplish that strategic goal.
7:38 Kara Swisher? And what would that mean for you? What would that mean for you to vote for a war powers resolution?
7:43 Speaker 04 Well, the, I, I think that we need to, like we've had to deal with in other Middle East engagements, we just need to look at what the meets and bounds of an authorization would look like. And that's going to be fluid, but it's going to be necessary. Or it'd be very, very difficult for me to support future action after the 60 day mark in the absence of that information. We just can't have these endless engagements. I mean, my goodness, Republicans ran on the concept of ending endless wars. And the last thing we want to do is appear to be hypocrites when we're confronted with the same sorts of challenges that we criticize Democrats for.
8:19 Kara Swisher? Do you appear to be hypocrites at this moment?
8:21 Speaker 04 I don't think so yet. Because again, look, there, I, I do believe that Iran, first off, I was a, when I ran for the Senate, I was highly critical of Obama's JCPOA. I don't think it was sustainable. It was a part of that governing with the pen and the phone thing that I think administrations have had, including the, the current administration. You want to have legitimacy with international engagements, you should get the Article One branch involved.
8:49 Kara Swisher? Correct.
8:50 Speaker 04 And so the message now is just that. And we're gonna, we're gonna give them some deference. I'm gonna give them some deference for the next 30 or so days, but if we don't have an abundance of clarity by then, then it becomes a real problem.
9:02 Kara Swisher? Where's the fault?
9:03 Speaker 04 I also think it becomes a political problem.
9:05 Kara Swisher? It is a political problem.
9:06 Speaker 04 It's already a political problem, right?
9:07 Kara Swisher? So, so when you think about that, where is the fault line? What is it President Trump changing, saying, "We won, we're leaving, we're going"? Or is it Defense Secretary, War Secretary, Pete Hegseth? Where is the problem?
9:19 Speaker 04 I don't know. I have to view Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, as, you know, the person who's at the tip of the spear, providing best military advice from professionals. But at the end of the day, he owns the work product.
9:32 Kara Swisher? Okay.
9:33 Speaker 04 And I'll be judging, you know, how well he's doing, based on the best advice he's given the President, and how well the President articulates our goals going forward.
9:42 Kara Swisher? And what grade would you give him now?
9:44 Speaker 04 Well, I think we're too early to give him. I'll give it an incomplete, because we simply, I do believe that, like the bombings from last year, it was good to degrade capabilities of the Iranians. They're no friend.
9:58 Kara Swisher? They were supposed to be obliterated, but no.
10:00 Speaker 04 Yeah, well, it was semi-obliterated, I guess. But, but you know, you, I don't like using absolute words to describe complex things, but the President did.
10:10 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
10:11 Speaker 04 And I think that that's a part of what confuses people, because, you know, I think people want to know, "Well, my goodness, we thought we obliterated things, now we're back and we've obliterated them again. Well, if we've obliterated them again, why do we need ground troops? What strategic goal is necessary post-obliteration that puts US service members at risk?"
10:28 Kara Swisher? I had a very fascinating discussion with your colleague, Senator Mark Warner, about that. And he was like, you know, "Only way to get rid of the things they're talking about is to have our troops there," you know, and it's obvious. But talk about a realistic conclusion, because regime change seems unlikely at this point. And this is something, actually, when I talked to Senator Warner, he said, "Absolutely not. These people are gonna stay." This was before it was clear they weren't gonna, they were gonna stay in power. But he said, "In unstable regimes that's still in place is potentially even more dangerous." What is the realistic end that you see?
10:57 Speaker 04 Well, that's, that's what concerns me about the after. I mean, you could create, if we're not careful with how we conclude this...
11:07 Speaker 04 We could create a more dangerous situation than we have today. Maybe less so on any immediate nuclear threat, but more so on having Iran's Milan influence and Hamas and Hezbollah and other organizations that they've supported internationally. They just turn that dial up if they're losing on the nuclear option. So I think there is a scenario where they become maybe counterintuitive since so much obliteration is going on.
11:35 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
11:36 Speaker 04 But it could create a more dangerous situation if we don't handle the after properly.
11:41 Kara Swisher? Trump extended his deadline to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. If he doesn't, he's threatened to strike Iran's power plants, which are civilian infrastructure. If he does it, it would be a major escalation, right? And a possible war crime against civilians. He decided to strike those power plants. Where would it leave us? And especially when they have other ways of attacking us in the Straits of Hormuz with drones, with small boats. And so we spend a million dollars on a missile that obliterates a 50,000-dollar drone.
12:10 Speaker 04 Well, that's, you know, we have to look at, we should also view that threat if the United States follows through on hitting civilian infrastructure. I don't know what the current sentiment is among the Iranian people, but you could begin to alienate those who would like nothing more than to see regime change when you start killing mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children. So they've got to be very, very careful with that. And like you said, they've got to be very cognizant of the fact that we could be moving into violation of the law of war. So we've got to make, you know, the generals in the Pentagon get this.
12:51 Speaker 04 I hope that they're the ones who are trying to look around corners for the president to understand the second, third order effects.
12:58 Kara Swisher? I think they suggested not to do this. I think, I believe they suggested.
13:03 Speaker 04 Well, that's what, I would be shocked if in a brief, before the decision was made for the second incursion, if someone said, one of the first things that the Iranians are going to do is close the Strait of Hormuz. That should not have been a shock to anybody. I was fully expecting it.
13:18 Kara Swisher? Sure, sure.
13:19 Speaker 04 And back to a certain extent, I was expecting it in the first incursion last year. So hopefully those with stars on their shoulders are going to win the day in terms of the path forward, because if they don't, we're doing it at our own peril.
13:31 Kara Swisher? Do you think they will?
13:33 Speaker 04 I'm hopeful that they will. And I think that it's concerning to me when you have a House Chair of a committee of jurisdictions saying he's not getting enough information. Because most of these generals have no problem with going into the SCIF and outlining their plans. So that makes me, you know, I'm an overly skeptical person anyway, but that makes me a little bit concerned about who's actually calling the shots and advising the president.
13:59 Kara Swisher? Or getting to the president.
14:00 Speaker 04 Yeah, right.
14:01 Kara Swisher? So President Trump has been pressuring the Senate to pass the voter ID law known as the Save America Act. It would require proof of citizenship to register to vote. You've said the bill doesn't have the votes to pass and you oppose getting rid of the filibuster for that. And that's exactly what President Trump wants. Senate Republicans are very clear the filibuster isn't going anywhere. Why haven't you all been able to persuade him?
14:20 Speaker 04 I don't know. The President and I still, I think I mentioned this to you, to the group when you and I were together the first time. The President and I still have a good relationship. I've made it very clear to him that there are no circumstances that I would support nuking the filibuster. Because we're going to be here after his administration's gone. It will do irreparable harm to the institution of the Senate.
14:41 Kara Swisher? It sure will.
14:42 Speaker 04 And I think by extension, the US. And shame on the Democrats for trying to nuke the filibuster after they signed a letter with me telling President Trump, one, that we would never nuke the filibuster. Hopefully, they'll go back to their roots and defend it in the future. Because now that's the argument. We need to do it because they will. It's an irrational argument for me.
14:59 Kara Swisher? No, that's the nuclear.
15:00 Speaker 04 That's right. But I think, one thing about the SAVE Act that just blows my mind is, do you want to know how many US senators are representing states that have voter ID?
15:13 Kara Swisher? I don't know.
15:14 Speaker 04 Seventy-two. So, we don't have seventy-two red states. That's a mix of red states and blue states. You could argue about whether or not they're up to the standards that we would like for them to be. I'd have no problem with laying down a bill that says, these are the federal standards. If you achieve them, then you get funding for completing your elections. If you don't, then that money will be used to audit your elections. So it's a way to actually address for the handful of states that may not move forward. But there are not votes to get this done. It won't achieve the 60 vote threshold and there is no path for the nuclear option.
15:46 Kara Swisher? All the reporting.
15:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:48 Kara Swisher? It's solving a problem that doesn't exist.
15:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, but but the reality is, I don't know why people it's become such an irrational partisan divide. In my opinion.
15:57 Kara Swisher? It feels like trying to stop people from voting, right?
15:59 Speaker 04 Well, you know, to me, it's like, what is the big deal? I was Speaker of the House when we passed voter ID in North Carolina.
16:08 Speaker 04 And we use the HAVA documents, things that you could use as a replacement for it. I got criticized by the right for doing that. We even agreed to pay, I think at the time it was estimated $8 to give somebody a government issue ID if they don't. I mean, this is empowering people.
16:24 Kara Swisher? If you were going to give people an ID, a lot of it is they don't have an ID or they have to change their name or they don't have a pass. Passports are $160.
16:31 Speaker 04 And we need to be smart, but I, you know, I think that some of the real problems that I have with the underlying language in the bill has to do with absentee balloting that's working great in red states like North Carolina. And if you if you get rid of all but extreme cases for absentee balloting, you're going to have an enormously negative impact in Alaska, in Montana, in a number of other red states.
16:53 Kara Swisher? Right, Senator Kowski.
16:55 Speaker 04 And so it's just politi I would think that if they really seriously believe that this law could get passed, then they would have taken care of those defects. So there's a side of me that wonders if this was all just theater to nuke the filibuster rather than really putting in good, solid, durable voter ID, which I believe we should have in this state.
17:15 Kara Swisher? He would like to nuke the filibuster. What does he say to you when you say, I'm not doing that?
17:19 Speaker 04 The president, I've never had really a pitched discussion at all, even with the discussions or disagreements that we have. But I'm just saying, guys, you're gone in 2028.
17:31 Speaker 04 We, they, who are the people who are going to be here, are going to have to pick up the pieces. And as a business person, I said, do you all have any earthly idea how damaging the US going from making it really difficult to do something bad or do something good with the 60 vote threshold to having massive swings in regulatory tax policy every two, four, or six years?
17:53 Kara Swisher? From a business perspective.
17:54 Speaker 04 You would get a complete, I would discount, I advise clients on setting up operations. And I would take away the premium, people are willing to pay a premium to set up shop in the United States because of the rule of law and the level of certainty that comes with how difficult it is to change the law, major, major law.
18:14 Kara Swisher? Right, right, it creates chaos.
18:15 Speaker 04 That goes away. And so that diminishes our global competitiveness that I believe a bedrock of that is the exact way the Article I branch is structured today.
18:24 Kara Swisher? So, Trump said this week that he wants to tie his voter ID legislation, the deal to open the Department of Homeland Security, it's been shut down for more than a month, speaking of chaos. Talk a little bit about this.
18:33 Speaker 04 About...
18:36 Kara Swisher? The situation at TSN and linking it to this other bill.
18:39 Speaker 04 I don't think it makes any, it takes something that's already impossible in terms of passing the SAVE Act in its current form and making something that we must get done equally impossible. So let's just separate, I know the president's frustrated, by the way, I had this with a Democrat governor and a Republican governor, I don't mind the president trying to make his branch, he is the ultimate steward of his branch, as powerful as possible. I don't mind that. What I mind is people not being good stewards of the Article I branch on something that they know is critically important to the functioning of this great
19:17 Speaker 04 nation. And so, you know, let's set SAVE aside and let's talk about DHS. Well, look, the operation, and this is where the Democrats have to acknowledge, that the operations that they are trying to defund are not going to want for funding for a good two and a half or three years. The big beautiful bill gave them the baseline funding to build the wall and to do the sort of operations. That ICE needs to do. So now, we're kind of holding TSA, the Coast Guard. I had somebody ask me, a reporter coming over here, um, what do you think about a unanimous consent for TSA? I said, number one, I've got to believe some Democrat, pick one that's not up until 2030, will object to it.
20:01 Speaker 04 Uh, number two, it just means that now the focus will be on, I would say, the Coast Guard, who's in the Strait of Hormuz. Uh, and they're the only people in that region right now. The other armed services are being paid and they're not. That will become the next story. So the bottom line is, we need to get the funding bill done. Um, and we should not leave Washington. This will, this will come out after, probably after this is resolved, but we should not leave Washington until we do get it done. And whether that's through administrative action, through an act of Congress, this funding needs to get done.
20:32 Kara Swisher? Will that happen?
20:33 Speaker 04 Uh, I believe so. Now, the question, again, the question is, is it through an act of Congress that maybe embraces some of the reforms? Uh, or is it through administrative action where they have the authority to move some resources around?
20:45 Kara Swisher? Do you have a problem with no masks, for example?
20:47 Speaker 04 Uh, I don't have a problem. The, the problem that I have, if you've been on the border, for example, I've done several border tours in the middle of the night, and I've had, I've witnessed encounters with people who are subsequently, um, uh, proven to have been members of cartel, of course they should have their mask up then. If they're riding through the streets of Minneapolis between meetings, absolutely not. I think there's a happy median. But for, for the people saying their mask should always be down, really? As somebody who's just dealt with a family doxing event two weeks ago?
21:17 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
21:18 Speaker 04 That's, that's the world I've chosen to live in. I don't think that that's fair for law enforcement. So there's got to be a balance.
21:23 Kara Swisher? No other law enforcement wears it.
21:25 Speaker 04 It doesn't have to be black and white.
21:27 Kara Swisher? I'm not wearing a mask. None of us, none of the rest of us are wearing those masks to hide ourselves.
21:31 Speaker 04 Well, that's right. But you're also not going into a place where, the other argument here is, everybody is casting, everybody that works in ICE is bad people. The vast majority of them are good people. There are mothers and fathers, there are brothers and sisters who go to work every day in a dangerous job, and when they're in dangerous settings with people who contract killers and murder people, then I think that they deserve that extra piece of protection.
21:57 Kara Swisher? But not everywhere.
21:59 Speaker 04 But not everywhere.
22:00 Kara Swisher? Right.
22:01 Speaker 04 No. This, this world's so binary, I just get sick of that.
22:03 Kara Swisher? No, I get it. I get it. I just feel like if military doesn't wear it, police don't wear it. Judges, judges, you, you're.
22:09 Speaker 04 I actually believe that there's something to be said for more judges' protection because they've been politicized. Remember when Chuck Schumer said, well, unleash a whirlwind on the Supreme Court? So that became standard that the Article 3s in play now.
22:23 Kara Swisher? But I bet you wouldn't like to be in a court and have a judge with a mask on.
22:26 Speaker 04 Hundred percent.
22:29 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
22:38 Kara Swisher? Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs,
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25:52 Kara Swisher? That's forhers.com/kara. Individual results may vary, and stopping treatment may result in weight regain. Let me go through a couple of things. You recently went viral for a brutal takedown of former DHS Secretary Kristi Noem during the Senate hearing.
26:08 Speaker 04 Didn't know it went viral, but yeah, I do remember the meeting.
26:10 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you had a chart. That was great. I love a chart. And you voiced confidence in her replacement, Oklahoma Senator Mark Wainmullin. Talk a little bit about what happened there. And also, when it comes to immigration, the administration isn't changing its goal to deport millions of people, a million people in one year. Is it meaningfully different? Different from your perspective under Mullen.
26:30 Speaker 04 It will be. I believe it will be. Actually, you were asking me about the BOLO. It represents the Lumbee tribe. I'll give you a good example of the kind of character that the kind of character that Mark Wayne Mullen possesses. Mark Wayne Mullen is an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation. But when he was even in the House, he decided to vote for Lumbee recognition because he believes, he studied it, and he believes it was wrong. So he was willing to go up against his own tribe and the politics of it because he believed it was the right thing to do. I believe he's going to carry that same sort of thought process into his new role. And I also believe he will project that thought process on any advisors from the White House
27:14 Speaker 04 that are at odds with what he believes is the right thing to do.
27:17 Kara Swisher? Stephen Miller, I think you're referring to.
27:18 Speaker 04 Stephen Miller or anybody else. I think, you know, it seems like there was a fair amount of evidence that the prior Secretary Noem had a lot, that Stephen Miller had a lot of influence. I think that Mark Wayne will listen to all comers, but I don't see Mark Wayne losing many arguments or differences of opinion if those two are at odds with each other on what's best to do for Homeland Security. I also think that Mark Wayne is going to let FEMA be FEMA. Get the right leadership in there, set it and forget it. It is a part of Homeland Security. One of the reasons I got mad at that hearing was an hour before the hearing, after a month of waiting, I was told that they were not going to give me information on the operation in Charlotte.
27:59 Kara Swisher? Yep.
27:59 Speaker 04 And I'm going, that told me all I needed to know about how poorly the operation was executed in Charlotte. Because if you had 500 encounters and 250 of them were people who had criminal records, dangerous criminal records, I mean, Washington loves embarrassing politicians, right? And particularly some of the people in this administration. If they had that evidence that just made it clearly it was a resounding success, I would have gotten a letter an hour before the hearing saying you're not going to get it.
28:28 Kara Swisher? Sure, they would have been touting themselves.
28:29 Speaker 04 That's what made me angry, and that's why I went into the hearing a little bit hotter than I prefer to be, actually.
28:34 Kara Swisher? Right. And you don't think he'll be pulled around by Stephen Miller? And do you think Miller has had a deleterious impact on?
28:41 Speaker 04 I think Stephen, Stephen Miller, I just feel like I've told the president, I've told other people, I said, look, this guy is a surfer. I mean, he surfed into DC with Jeff Sessions and quickly surfs onto some other wave. I mean, does anybody really believe Stephen Miller is going to be the curator of the Trump museum or the Trump library when we're down here? He's going to surf onto something else. I don't appreciate what really made my private conflict become public with Miller is when he went on TV and said it is a position of the United States that Greenland will become a part of the US. He doesn't speak for the Article One branch. He doesn't actually speak for the American people. He speaks for one branch that represents the American people. And that's what made
29:26 Speaker 04 me feel like he was skating way outside of his lanes. And that made me angry because I also, you know, I'm the Republican leader of the Senate NATO Observer Group, have been since 2018. And I know how those words are perceived in capitals across Europe. And I wanted to make it very clear, he didn't speak for me or the vast majority of the members of Congress on this particular issue.
29:47 Kara Swisher? Right. I think you're saying he's over his skis and his board. He's got his way over on lots of issues.
29:53 Speaker 04 That's, that's right. Yeah. So go back, be an advisor, but you know, stop enjoying watching yourself on TV. That's not a part of your job.
30:00 Kara Swisher? He does like to be on TV. Very quickly, Kevin Warsh, when is he, will he be appointed? The DOJ's investigation of Jerome Powell and the renovation is still ongoing, although they're losing in court.
30:10 Speaker 04 Well, the hearing, I mean, obviously, if you're a prosecutor, you should have been embarrassed by, by the ruling of the judge. And now we've subsequently heard even prosecutors stipulate that they didn't really have much evidence of criminal.
30:22 Kara Swisher? The DOJ.
30:23 Speaker 04 But you know, I go back, I'm going, guys, this is so weird. I was at.
30:27 Kara Swisher? Trump today was talking about it.
30:29 Speaker 04 I was at the alleged scene of the crime, right? And so were seven other members, including the chair. We all said that there was no criminal act, that no criminal act occurred. So what more? I mean, you got a prosecutor insisting a crime occurred in spite of the fact that the majority, everybody who's spoken on the issue said no crime was occurred. So I say all that to say, until that case is carried through, maybe more evidence comes up that they can convince me beyond two minutes of testimony. I like Kevin. I think he'll be a great chair.
31:02 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
31:02 Speaker 04 And we can have the hearing at any time, but I will withhold my vote, which in committee means that it won't get reported out of committee, and there's no path to discharge.
31:11 Kara Swisher? Trump seemed to double down today. He said, the guy whose interest rates are too high. It seems to be related to interest rates and not to get him pressured. This guy's not to be pressured.
31:21 Speaker 04 It relates to Fed independence, which is exactly why on Sunday night I took the definitive position that I did to make sure on Monday morning when markets open up, they didn't wake up for the first time since the existence of the Fed, that the Fed serves at the pleasure of the president. It doesn't. What I like about what Worsch is saying is you're going to still have independence with respect to the dual mandate. But there are other things that go on in the Fed that I think we do need more transparency. When you talk about bank examinations and supervisory functions. So I like what he wants to bring. And now, because some prosecutor with a dream decided to go forth with subpoena and an investigation,
32:03 Speaker 04 I'm in the position, unless it's completed, I got 283 days left, and I'm simply not going to vote for it.
32:09 Kara Swisher? He seems to have run out of fucks, I think, as they say.
32:11 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah.
32:11 Kara Swisher? He seems to have. So just very briefly, you're not voting for Casey Means, the next Surgeon General?
32:17 Speaker 04 Well, I've said I'm a lean no if she gets reported out of committee. Yep. I'd have to have members, members that vote. What I, most of the time, Kara, I've said... On NAMs, I'm going to defer, if you get an unanimous vote at a committee.
32:31 Kara Swisher? You voted for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
32:32 Speaker 04 Right. If you get one, and I talked to members who were probably on the fence, I said, look, if you on some of these nominees vote no, I'll be there to back you up, but I'm not going to be the lone person in these cases where I'm deferring to members on the committee of jurisdiction. And now, in this case, the NOM hasn't moved forward, so that suggests to me there may be some concerns on the committee.
32:56 Kara Swisher? You said the resume puts you on alert.
32:58 Speaker 04 Yeah, she did not impress in the hearing.
33:01 Kara Swisher? I know her.
33:02 Speaker 04 And the resume did not, you know, did not look like the kinds of resumes we've seen before in terms of surgeon generals from either side of the aisle.
33:11 Kara Swisher? So you think, Tom, where is it going to go?
33:14 Speaker 04 You know, I think if we're, what are we, three weeks past the nomination hearing? And we're about to go on recess, generally speaking, anytime a major NOM like this is in committee for more than a month or six weeks, it probably means ultimately they get withdrawn, but we'll see.
33:30 Kara Swisher? We'll see. So let's move on very quickly, I think, because I know we have limited time. Right now, you're one of the few Republicans willing to challenge the administration, getting a lot of praise for that. Your critics call you Too Late Tom. Do you know that?
33:41 Speaker 04 I couldn't care less about my critics.
33:42 Kara Swisher? I know.
33:43 Speaker 04 For number one, you know what, the problem about either the liberals, and most of the time, that's the liberals that just want to, you know, attack any conservative, even a right of center conservative like me.
33:55 Kara Swisher? Yeah, because conservatives never do that these days. But go ahead.
33:58 Speaker 04 There's an equal amount of dumbness at either end of the political spectrum.
34:02 Kara Swisher? That is true.
34:03 Speaker 04 I'll stipulate that.
34:04 Kara Swisher? Okay.
34:05 Speaker 04 But the reality is, Too Late Tom, my God, six months into my freshman term as a brand new state legislator, I broke with the Republican Conference to negotiate the first ever renewable portfolio standard in the Southeast. These folks should stop, they're either lazy, or they're dumb, or they're both. They ought to look at my record.
34:29 Kara Swisher? Well, maybe they thought that was a great thing, and they were like, why doesn't it been like this before?
34:32 Speaker 04 Well, but I'm saying Too Late Tom, that was in 2007.
34:33 Kara Swisher? Why aren't you John McCain? I think they're saying, why aren't you John? I think that's, it's a con- But you are liberated from the pressures of running for reelection. Do you feel that way?
34:41 Speaker 04 No, it's like I've said, I've been, I got in a dust up with Trump one over filing a bill that could only allow him to fire Mueller over for costs. So it's not like this is new. But like I've said time and time again, I forget who the talking head is on C-SPAN, but I think he consistently wears a plaid jacket. I need to know his name. But he almost always prefaces a comment that I make about, well, of course, he's retiring. Why is that even relevant?
35:10 Kara Swisher? Well, you might feel a little more free.
35:12 Speaker 04 Well, no, but the point is, I would, I have expressed my concern in the past. I no longer have to worry about what language I use to communicate it because I don't have to go through the cost benefit.
35:25 Kara Swisher? You can be clearer than some of your colleagues because I have to tell you, when I talk to some of your colleagues off the record, the Republicans, they're much more critical of Trump.
35:32 Speaker 04 Of course, but look, I mean, you know what all martyrs have in common?
35:35 Kara Swisher? What?
35:35 Speaker 04 They're dead. And in politics, that's losing elections. I have no problem with people who are running for reelection or managing the complexities of their state to pull back. I believe that they would be there if things became existential. But it's silly. That's what I'm saying to this talking head dude. It's like, of course, I don't have to go through that cost benefit analysis. I don't have to wonder if I say it this way or in one sentence, am I now going to have to raise $10 million more dollars and buy that many more gross rating points to explain what I meant?
36:08 Kara Swisher? Right, right.
36:08 Speaker 04 So it's not that I wouldn't say it. What I'm saying has been consistent since I was a freshman in the State House. How I'm saying it is different because I don't have that cost benefit analysis.
36:19 Kara Swisher? Although, to be fair, a lot of, speaking of martyrs, Republicans criticizing Trump on their way out the door has become a theme. It has. I mean, you had former Senators Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, former House Speaker Paul Ryan, Congressman Janie Marjorie Taylor Greene.
36:33 Speaker 04 You know what they all have in common?
36:35 Kara Swisher? And Congressman Don Bacon.
36:36 Speaker 04 Do you know what they all have in common? That they've criticized the precedent and I've never criticized the precedent.
36:43 Kara Swisher? Yes, I wanted to ask about that.
36:44 Speaker 04 Because, look, I mean, all these-
36:46 Kara Swisher? Can I just point that that was really interesting when we met you you you aim it mainly at the administration and advisers and not himself. And you repeatedly said you think he's getting bad advice. Though as a former business person at blue chip corporations, you you've been around the block, you know, the CEO often is the center of criticism. So what's the difference?
37:05 Speaker 04 Well, I believe there's some great people. By the way, the majority, one of the things I've done when I talked to a lot of people in the administration, and I feel like I have very good relationships with a number of people in the cabinet in the administration. I say, I'll let them know off the record who I'm talking about, but I'm not talking about you. I mean, that's that's a way of saying I've got a problem with people. I'm in the unique position of having spent almost more than 25 years in top tier management consulting.
37:33 Kara Swisher? You have.
37:34 Speaker 04 And 20 years in legislative politics, including leadership roles, particularly as Speaker of the House and turning the state around. So I'm in a unique position to really help or maybe just intuitively look around corners. And I'm expecting people in the White House who are similarly situated to use that experience to warn the president about second and third order effects. And I feel like there's two ways to give the president bad advice. One is coming up with a really lousy idea and selling the president on it, kind of like Stephen Miller saying any immigration reform is bad. I think the president would like to do immigration reform. I believe Stephen Miller is one of the people that are preventing that from happening.
38:16 Speaker 04 Another one is the president comes up with a really bad idea and you don't have the guts to tell him it's a bad idea. And that's what I'm pointing to. I expect more out of these people.
38:26 Kara Swisher? But not from him.
38:27 Speaker 04 What's that?
38:28 Kara Swisher? Not from him?
38:29 Speaker 04 The president, at the end of the day, needs people that have the courage to let him know what he doesn't know. And then if you start seeing, if I start seeing more signals from the White House saying, Tom, we did our best, we went to the math, we agree with you, then maybe I've got to start looking at the president.
38:46 Kara Swisher? That happened in the first administration. He seems to be staffing with people who don't do that. They had Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis, Attorney General Bill Barr, Chairman of the Department of Defense.
38:54 Speaker 04 Well, you had five sec.
38:55 Kara Swisher? Mark Milley.
38:56 Speaker 04 So, did you? Did you watch Spinal Tap back in the day?
38:58 Kara Swisher? Yes, I did.
38:59 Speaker 04 Well, I said, you know, the sec deaths were like the drummer in Spinal Tap. They they kind of blew up after every major performance.
39:05 Kara Swisher? Yes, that's right.
39:06 Speaker 04 So, yeah, I get that. But that maybe that's why some people are holding back. But you can't hold back. And the reason why I would suggest they do it for no other reason, their own personal reputation. One of the reasons why I like Wash, you know, as the the future Fed Chair is I think his reputation and the work that he has done is more important than him to him than any sort of alignment with the president.
39:28 Kara Swisher? So not a sycophant.
39:29 Speaker 04 I don't think I don't believe he'll be a sycophant.
39:31 Kara Swisher? Are there too many sycophants in the White House?
39:33 Speaker 04 I do believe we have some folks that, gosh, boss, that's a great idea. And you know, in their heart of hearts, it's not. You're being dishonest to the president when you know in your heart and in your mind it's not a good idea and you say, great idea, boss. You're being dishonest to the president and you're being dishonest.
39:50 Kara Swisher? Does he want that feedback?
39:51 Speaker 04 You know, who doesn't like? I mean, I don't really like self-affirming stuff, but.
39:55 Kara Swisher? No, I like the opposite.
39:56 Speaker 04 But I do, too. I like my you'll go into my office sometimes and you'll hear yelling behind my doors and half the time it's the staff yelling at me. That's the sort of stuff that I reward. I want people to stretch me and grow me and inform me. And the president needs people that are going to stretch him, grow him and inform them.
40:16 Kara Swisher? Is he welcoming that?
40:17 Speaker 04 And if not, walk out, guys. Life is good on the outside. If you have any kind of experience, you should be able to get a job pretty easily.
40:25 Kara Swisher? He seems to have made different selections of staff, though.
40:26 Speaker 04 Yeah, I know it. I'm just saying they're they're letting the president down and they're diminishing what could otherwise be a strong legacy if they don't get their act together. And there are political consequences. The thing we have to talk about right now, we're not doing too well. And and what would typically be a negative election, I think, is far more so because we're not executing.
40:47 Kara Swisher? I'm going to get in there because, you know, if saying he's giving getting bad advice makes him a passive bystander, he doesn't seem to be that. But ever so, we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from longtime Washington Defense Attorney Abby Lowell, who's represented people in the Trump family and also, obviously, Chisha James and many others, Don Lemon. Let's listen to it.
41:05 Speaker 05 Senator Hillis, so good to talk with you. I have this question. You've been one of the very few Republicans to have pushed back on President Trump or folks in his administration on almost any issue. The founders entire premise was that there would be three co-equal branches of government to check the power of the other branch. Has Congress abdicated its role when the majority in Congress and the president are of the same party? And will this check and balance only be able to occur when there is the so-called divided government? And lastly, since you have decided to leave this very important role, who will you hope
41:49 Speaker 05 or who will you ask to play the role you have played over this last year in the future?
41:55 Kara Swisher? Great question.
41:56 Speaker 04 Well, let's start with the foundational question. Well, I've been here when Washington was completely controlled by Democrats. I saw the same behavior. Let's not pretend like questioning the president is this or failing to question the president is this new thing under Trump. I saw it under Biden. I saw it under Obama. So let's be real. In fact, back, I think it was when we either passed the Respect for Marriage or Safer Communities Act, I had a couple of Democrats come up to me and high five me. He said, thank you for being bipartisan. I said, I appreciate that. I'm looking forward to you doing that someday. And they go, well, we did. We voted on the bill. I said, my God, you had 50 members, 51 of your members voted on the bill.
42:41 Speaker 04 That's not a tough vote for you. And so I would ask people to show me an example of somebody who was a Tom Tillis in the Biden administration on the Democrat side.
42:51 Kara Swisher? Who are you? This is your party we're talking about.
42:53 Speaker 04 Yeah, I know. I just want to make it clear. There are so many people that their memories only happen to be
42:59 Kara Swisher? Manchin.
43:00 Speaker 04 As recent as the election.
43:01 Kara Swisher? You had Manchin, you had Sinema.
43:03 Speaker 04 And they're gone because the Democratic Party turned their back on them and tried to replace them.
43:07 Kara Swisher? You're leaving.
43:08 Speaker 04 Kirsten Sinema was absolutely recruited.
43:10 Kara Swisher? Klu Klux Klan.
43:11 Speaker 04 The Democrats recruited to go against her.
43:14 Kara Swisher? Fetterman. What in the world?
43:16 Speaker 04 I'm just saying.
43:17 Kara Swisher? He's a Republican now, though.
43:18 Speaker 04 He is. Welcome to the party. But I'm just saying, look, it exists in every camp. And the ones who did it, who actually Kirsten wanted to continue her Career was rewarded by having a primary run against.
43:31 Kara Swisher? He's got a whole lot of other problems, but in any case.
43:33 Speaker 04 All I'm saying is, everybody needs to look in the mirror when they ask this question. It's not a Republican phenomenon, it's a bipartisan phenomenon.
43:41 Kara Swisher? But is it better to have a divided government with Congress and a different?
43:44 Speaker 04 If you have the right leadership, I could see where, I think that the Article One branch is safest when you have divided government.
43:53 Kara Swisher? And who would you think is going to take up your sword, I guess?
43:57 Speaker 04 I don't know, there's people out there that are independent, I think a lot of it will come down, you know, the states matter, you know, you're more likely, you know, in this election cycle, we're at risk of maybe losing some of the more moderate states, so it's going to be less likely it comes from the usual suspects. I represent the people.
44:17 Kara Swisher? Satin, Rounds?
44:18 Speaker 04 People in North Carolina, people ask me what, I love North Carolina, the reason I've lived in it since 1998, I love it, but I also love the politics of North Carolina, where 40% of the people are independent, they're not affiliated with either party, and then the remainder are evenly divided. So when people ask me, you know, I said, "Look at my state, look at my positions, and plus or minus 10% is in complete alignment with the priorities of the people of North Carolina."
44:43 Kara Swisher? So is there anybody in Congress, I know you consider very independent in the GOP?
44:47 Speaker 04 I think, you know, I think you're looking, I don't want to name names because then you put targets on them, and, you know, force the people go around and attack them, but there are four or five members that I think, given the right situation, will be doing the very same kinds of things that I'm doing today.
45:10 Kara Swisher? We'll be back in a minute.
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46:29 Speaker 04 I'm Bridget Reed. And I'm James Walsh. The Alexander Brothers moved in a world of multimillion-dollar homes, exclusive parties, and powerful people. Behind that glamorous lifestyle were years of rumors and allegations that they were committing sexual assault. In our reporting for New York Magazine, we investigated what people knew and heard from women who came forward to tell their stories. Now, that reporting is the basis for a new three-part docu-series, The Wolves of Real Estate: The Alexander Brothers. You'll see exactly how privilege protected them and how they were finally stopped. Stream all three episodes now, only on Peacock.
47:12 Kara Swisher? I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.
47:48 Kara Swisher? So let's talk about where the Republican Party has headed in a few years. You've said you're not trying to undermine their problems with your criticism of the administration.
47:54 Speaker 04 I'm trying to get more Republicans elected in November.
47:56 Kara Swisher? Yes, exactly. A new Fox News poll, and I'm using Fox specifically, shows Trump's approval rating dropping to 41%. Others are even lower.
48:04 Speaker 04 Yeah.
48:04 Kara Swisher? There's also sort of a growing problem of extremism with some young voters. The Washington Post had a great story today after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. White supremacists like Nick Fuentes increasingly seem to be filling the vacuum. Now, Democrats have problems too, but let's talk about the radicalization of the young right. And what are the key things in this election coming up? Are you most worried about?
48:25 Speaker 04 To be honest with you, I hear that, but I don't think that the young right described in the way that you did is any greater than the young left. Matter of fact, I had a young lady who had to be a part of the young left try to get me a gotcha question on the way out the door. Now, you're talking to somebody who has speaker passed the first only restitution for forced sterilization victims that was invariably imposed against black people. I come up here, I write 137 year wrong with the Lumbee Nation, I get them recognized.
49:01 Kara Swisher? You're a complex man, is what you're saying.
49:02 Speaker 04 All the way through Jim Crow, etc. But I have this young, extreme equivalent to what you're talking about, the radical right, asking me some nonsense question, trying to paint what she had perceived, I guess, as he's a white Republican, so he must be a racist.
49:16 Kara Swisher? Great, but not good branding. Nick Fuentes's popularity is not good branding for you. Neither is.
49:20 Speaker 04 No, no. What I'm saying, though, is I think we need to just be clear that we're probably in equal ratios of the radicalized, if we want to call it young, or whatever. Having said that, the people who are in the left or right of center of politics that are registered are independent voters, do not like chaos, they do not like bullies, and they do not like the kind of elevated language that we have today. And, you know, it was in 2009, I was convinced that...
49:57 Speaker 04 The bullying and the pen and the phone and, you know, getting Obamacare in spite of any Republican. I was convinced when Time Magazine was saying this is the end of conservatives, the beginning of liberal progressivism, to quit my job because I believed that the Obama administration was going to overreach and that I was going to get as a majority and probably become Speaker of the House. That happened. And it happened when everybody thought that they were, they were riding the wave.
50:23 Kara Swisher? Okay.
50:24 Speaker 04 Um, we're almost guilty of doing the same thing. We read more into the election results than we should have. Uh, we're driving down a mandate that our base loves and much, a lot of it, I agree with the what. I, I have problems with the how, but it has alienated independent voters.
50:42 Kara Swisher? It has. All right.
50:43 Speaker 04 And independent voters, the only way you win statewide elections in North Carolina.
50:45 Kara Swisher? So you're worried mostly about the independent voters?
50:47 Speaker 04 I'm very worried about the independent voter. And I'm worried about the suburban voters, the right and left of center. You know, in, in my race, I got about 10% of the Democrat vote in both of my two elects. Um, I think now you'd be lucky to get 1% of the Democrat vote.
51:01 Kara Swisher? Well, you're seeing all these elections are going.
51:03 Speaker 04 Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, and I mean, it feels 2010-ish in reverse.
51:08 Kara Swisher? So in that regard, we have two more questions. We have a second expert question for you. Comes from one of our listeners who happens to be one of your constituents.
51:15 Speaker 04 My name is Bob Thomason. I'm a native of North Carolina and a North Carolina voter. I'm a retired businessman living in Charlotte. My question to the Senator has to do with the fact that our country can no longer get things done. And the major reason for that is that our politicians won't work across party lines to make things happen. It's really gotten embarrassing, quite frankly. Half our population is left behind by our economy. Our infrastructure is failing, including our once admired air traffic control system. And AI is coming and we have no plan. I'm old enough to remember a time when politicians
51:58 Speaker 04 did cross the aisle and work with each other. They even held a rogue president to account once. So my question to the Senator is, what has to happen for our country to get working again and for politicians to work with each other instead of, you know, adopting the my way or the highway approach? We're rapidly losing ground, not only to our rivals, but our enemies. I look forward to hearing the Senator's response.
52:25 Kara Swisher? Just really thoughtful.
52:26 Speaker 04 Well, it was, and he lives in my neck of the woods in North Carolina. First and foremost, we got to preserve the filibuster. That will destroy bipartisanship forever if we do it. Because the basis of both parties will absolutely vote you out. If you give on, so I think first and foremost, we need to get the Democratic Party and now the Republican Party as litmus test or asking primary opponents, are they for nuking the filibuster? So number one, I don't know what his party affiliation is. Go back to your Democrat or GOP meetings and say, this is nonsense.
53:08 Speaker 04 And then I think be a part of an organization that remembers the people that produce bipartisan results and reward them and go after the ones who are actually making it almost impossible to get done. But Kara, I'll tell you, you're a smart person. You do your research. You go back and find a time.
53:30 Speaker 04 And in the Biden administration, I was one of the leads on Respect for Marriage, Bipartisan Save for Communities Act. I was the sixth person to join the discussions to the gentleman's point about the bipartisan infrastructure bill. You go find a time where Democrats passed that many bills of that substance when the roles were reversed and they had to walk the so-called plank to add to Republicans to do it. So a part of it, again, I don't know his party affiliation, a part of it is going back and say, can you at least do what the Republicans did in the Biden administration? Democrats, when the roles are reversed, can we start telling everybody that compromise is good? Good can come out of it.
54:15 Kara Swisher? Well, the language in the White House is quite different than that, right?
54:18 Speaker 04 Well, I agree. And so was the language. And frankly, even I mentioned this with Biden, the reason, you know, these were historic bills, these bipartisan bills. You know why I didn't go to the White House for the signing ceremony, particularly for the two that we led on? It's because I was always wondering if I did, there would be some partisan statement at the signing ceremony, and in all three cases, there were. A Democrat president, instead of thanking everybody for bipartisanship and moving on, and then maybe saving that comment for a party rally, he says it when he has Republicans present.
54:53 Kara Swisher? What has to happen now?
54:55 Speaker 04 Who are taking on political capital.
54:56 Kara Swisher? What has to happen now? Because Trump made nine of those today, for example, the campaign. So what, this guy is saying, I don't really care. What's going to bring it back?
55:04 Speaker 04 Well, I think the, I think independents, voters rewarding independent members is how you get back. So get, independent voters could do this country a great service by saying, you know what? I'm going to set aside some of my ideological priorities for a while and reward behavior. Just say, because if you have enough people thinking independently, then if you're extreme right or extreme left, this isn't for you, don't waste your time. But for the remainder of the majority of the country, you'll see things that'll swim left and right of center that will be done on a more consistent bipartisan basis.
55:43 Kara Swisher? Do you think that's possible right now? I mean, I know you're worried about these elections. They're going to swing the other way.
55:46 Speaker 04 I don't think, I think, you know, look, for this Congress, you know, any sort of major bipartisan bills are all but probably impossible to get done. Function of time, for one thing. You know, after June, I mean, it's going to be all about the campaign.
56:00 Kara Swisher? So what are you most concerned about with the midterms coming up?
56:03 Speaker 04 I am concerned as a Republican, and I became concerned, that's why I voiced my concern.
56:10 Kara Swisher? Now the Senate's in play now.
56:11 Speaker 04 I believe, I think we, we're going to be okay with the Senate, you know, as long as we, we continue to support our incumbents. But I believe, you know, that we could, we could net a loss. I don't think this is a year where any reasonable expectation of gaining numbers exists. But I'm, you know, I'm going down and, and working and going to work in the trenches with the state legislatures. I think one of the things that's beginning to be reported is very important are the number of state legislatures across the country, that many of them gained a majority back in the same timeframe that I became Speaker, starting to look at their suburban districts, ones with either right of center Republicans, independents that are at risk.
56:52 Kara Swisher? Palm Beach just shifted.
56:53 Speaker 04 That's exactly right. So I'm going down, I'm going down to North Carolina.
56:57 Kara Swisher? What's your reddest flag? What is the reddest flag right now for you in this, for the Republicans?
57:02 Speaker 04 Basically, the evaporation of independents. The only independents that are supporting us right now are the ones who are right of the most extreme MAGA movement. They're the only ones that'll support us because they got nowhere to go. But that's a fraction of the independent base.
57:17 Kara Swisher? Which will be a problem.
57:18 Speaker 04 For the most part, eighty, eighty-five percent of the independent bases.
57:20 Kara Swisher? No, the numbers are devastating.
57:21 Speaker 04 They're either going to stay at home, or they're going to vote for what they consider to be...
57:25 Kara Swisher? It looks like they're voting.
57:26 Speaker 04 An alternative, yeah.
57:27 Kara Swisher? It looks like they're voting, like in Mar-a-Lago.
57:28 Speaker 04 Well, you got voter intensity, too. Democrat voter intensity is through the roof. You had one hundred and twenty-five thousand more Democrats vote in the primary than Republicans. Roy Cooper got one hundred and twenty-five thousand...
57:37 Kara Swisher? He looks like he's quite ahead.
57:38 Speaker 04 He got one hundred and twenty-five thousand more votes than all Republicans in that Republican primary. We got to get our folks enthusiastic, and we also have to get a fair share of the independents.
57:47 Kara Swisher? Cooper's very popular right now in North Carolina. He may be replacing...
57:50 Speaker 04 I know Roy. I'd have a non-alcoholic beer with him, but I'm not going to vote for him.
57:55 Kara Swisher? Okay. Well, I bet. Secret.
57:58 Speaker 04 I'll tell Roy that.
57:59 Kara Swisher? Yeah, I think he knows. Last question. When you think about what happens post-Trump, would you come back to politics? Would you...
58:06 Speaker 04 No, no, no.
58:07 Kara Swisher? And what are you going to do next? What is your, you're a business person, what do you think your best contribution is?
58:12 Speaker 04 I, you know, one thing, one thing that I want to do is really take a look at an organization that, like the gentleman and the question, could come to and say, if you're serious about, you know, supporting people and encouraging bipartisan behavior, then there needs to be an organization that provides the air cover for the people that do that. Everybody high-fives, signing ceremonies, like, whoa, sucks for you, you got a primary. There needs to be an organization in place that rewards behavior, not specific legislative outcomes. There also needs to be an organization that goes after the far left and the far right for being the antithesis of that behavior. So that's going to be an unpaid project.
58:57 Speaker 04 I don't want to make any money. I'm not going to be a registered lobbyist. I don't want to make any money in the...
59:02 Kara Swisher? You're just going to call Joe Manchin and the two of you are...
59:04 Speaker 04 Political operations. But, you know, I had an equal amount of time at Pricewaterhouse, PricewaterhouseCoopers, and IBM, and technology, media and entertainment, telecommunications, banking, and utilities. So I'm probably going to... And technology AI is interesting me. I know that's an interest, an area of interest for you. I think that that industry is going to need some help to to really get maintain our innovation advantage that we have today. And that's an area where, short of lobbying, I think we can get the industry to provide an answer to a lot of the
59:44 Speaker 04 questions about governance and and just making sure that we keep the US ahead of all other.
59:51 Kara Swisher? That said, they've never had a worse reputation in the technology industry. You go, let me ask you last question. You go into the technology industry. What do you do for them?
1:00:00 Speaker 04 Well, the first thing.
1:00:01 Kara Swisher? Because they look like villains.
1:00:02 Speaker 04 I know. Well, the first thing you do for them is say, guys, you gotta get your act together on all of your platforms with respect to child safety and to other kinds of
1:00:17 Speaker 04 bad outcomes that are they're being well, you know, we've this is a great week to have this discussion because you've seen the judgments you. You've got to make this a safe play. I have no problem, incidentally, with having significant Australia like controls on people under 16 using the internet.
1:00:34 Kara Swisher? Me neither.
1:00:35 Speaker 04 Unless it has.
1:00:35 Kara Swisher? Look, we agree.
1:00:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, it it has to have some some sort of a
1:00:42 Speaker 04 qualification process for a child to get online. Then you got to go beyond that. My goodness. But even if, you know, I heard on Judiciary Committee years ago, well, it's so hard to do the, you can't tell me it's hard now. It's a matter of margins and will. And you need to plow some of the margins back into getting this right. Because if you don't, then it's going to slow down our tech sector. I want my tech sector to survive and thrive.
1:01:07 Kara Swisher? Is this their cigarette company moment?
1:01:10 Speaker 04 No, because they're going to be around. I think. That the difference with the cigarette company, the cigarette company moment is recognizing it's going to be the end of an industry, except for the fact that the tobacco plant has a lot of other scientific uses, fortunately. But, no, they're going to be around. The question is who the 800-pound gorillas are going to be. I want them to be US-based tech firms, but operating in a way that is safe for children, that's safe for business, and addresses many of the malign uses of their platforms as possible. Because there's a political... Look, we've got to get our act together because state actors and now any terrorist organization, you know, now, and it used to be you had to be a nation-state to have the kind of scale to be disruptive in any other society.
1:01:55 Speaker 04 Hell, now all you need is a smart dude with a computer, or a woman. And that's a frightening prospect. And so they have to get it under control. They have enjoyed great success. I'm glad they've returned value to the shareholders. Their shareholders should also know that they want to be aligned with companies that are responsible in addressing some of the negative outcomes that, but for these platforms, would have never existed.
1:02:21 Kara Swisher? So you're going into AI?
1:02:23 Speaker 04 You know, I just...
1:02:26 Kara Swisher? Of course you are.
1:02:27 Speaker 04 I'm just, you know, I don't know what I'm going to do. What I am going to do is spend more time with my wife and spend more time with my grandchildren. But I'm 65, I think I'll probably...
1:02:36 Kara Swisher? You've got some time.
1:02:37 Speaker 04 I do have to ask you, why is it that you want to live forever?
1:02:39 Kara Swisher? You'll have to find out. You're going to have to watch it. I don't, it's a joke. It's a joke, I don't want to live forever. There's incredible, speaking of AI, but there's so much incredible scientific progress happening.
1:02:53 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:02:54 Kara Swisher? And it's being hindered by a lot of narcissism and not focused on everybody, just the very wealthy. And so I want to separate the charlatanism from what's real, because we can solve cancer, we can solve all manner of things. And North Carolina, obviously, in fact, be one of the bigger centers for it, given our medical...
1:03:11 Speaker 04 Yeah, I'm watching right now, I probably shouldn't admit this on TV, but I'm watching the...
1:03:16 Kara Swisher? Heated rivalry?
1:03:17 Speaker 04 No, Fallout, have you seen that series?
1:03:19 Kara Swisher? No, no.
1:03:20 Speaker 04 Well, it's a really distorted out... Come if we don't get this right.
1:03:24 Kara Swisher? Is this a nuclear war thing?
1:03:25 Speaker 04 Well, you know, it's premised on the game Fallout.
1:03:28 Kara Swisher? I know, but I watch happy gay romance.
1:03:30 Speaker 04 I only watch dark. See, my wife says I go feral when I'm up here. I watch all the dark stuff here and I watch the happy stuff at home.
1:03:36 Kara Swisher? All right, okay.
1:03:37 Speaker 04 But really, you should almost watch it, you will hate it, but you could watch it if, you know, because you talk about life extension and only certain people have a privilege in the future.
1:03:47 Kara Swisher? Right.
1:03:48 Speaker 04 I could easily, I hadn't thought about it until you made the comment, but I could easily see where you go, yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
1:03:53 Kara Swisher? Yeah, I think you'll like it a lot. I'm sorry, I did ask you one question you didn't answer. What does the party look like after Trump?
1:03:58 Speaker 04 I think the party will settle back in, like every time it, it'll, somebody probably asked that question during the Gilded Age, you know, somebody asked it during other periods of populism. So I, you know, I think that, you know, we go through the ebb and flow. I mean, some people probably asked that after Democrats got hammered in 2010. What does the future of the Democratic Party look like? So we go through these things. This is, I mean, these are, it's gonna, it's gonna depend on who steps up as a leader. If people double down on another phase of populism, if, if we get hit, if we double down on something that deals as a loss in November, whoever's suggesting that should
1:04:43 Speaker 04 by no means be the next nominee for President of the United States for the Republican Party. You gotta learn, I mean, if we lose in large numbers beyond what the historic average would be for a midterm election after a presidential, then I want a leader that's instructed by that. And if they're not instructed by that, it's not like I'm gonna go change my registration and vote for a Democrat, but I'll work on everything I can to get the kind of person that I think will
1:05:09 Kara Swisher? God forbid you do that.
1:05:10 Speaker 04 Will turn the rudder.
1:05:11 Kara Swisher? Yeah. So would you run for president?
1:05:13 Speaker 04 No, not under any circumstances.
1:05:14 Kara Swisher? No circumstances.
1:05:15 Speaker 04 I've never won at a, a public job. I actually deferred on having a security detail when I was Speaker, because I actually thought it was silly. I never want a job that requires a security detail.
1:05:27 Kara Swisher? All right.
1:05:28 Speaker 04 Because it robs my privacy.
1:05:29 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
1:05:30 Speaker 04 And I'm a very private, rather be in the woods than be in an office person.
1:05:33 Kara Swisher? All right, then. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
1:05:36 Speaker 04 Thank you.
1:05:41 Kara Swisher? Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're just in time, Tillis. If not, you're too late, Tom. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Bodia Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
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