How I Built Resilience: Lindsay Peoples Wagner of The Cut

Lindsay Peoples Wagner got her first taste of the fashion industry interning at Teen Vouge, where she cleaned massive closets filled with the season's latest trends. She eventually went on to serve as the publication's editor-in-chief for nearly three years. During this pandemic, she left her job at Teen Vouge and took on two new roles: the editor-in-chief of The Cut, a digital publication, and the co-founder of the Black in Fashion Council. Lindsay shares how the Black in Fashion Council is addressing inequalities within the fashion industry, and offers advice for young journalists trying to break into publishing. These conversations are excerpts from our How I Built Resilience series, where Guy talks online with founders and entrepreneurs about how they're navigating turbulent times. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:07Guy Raz?

  for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. Hello, everyone, and welcome to How I Built This: Resilience Edition from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. Each week, on Thursdays, we invite entrepreneurs and other business leaders to come on to the show live to talk about how they've been building resilience into their businesses this year. And today, my conversation with Lindsay Peoples-Wagner, the editor-in-chief at The Cut. The Cut's a digital publication that covers fashion, beauty, politics, and much more. And before she went to The Cut, Lindsay was the editor-in-chief at Teen Vogue.

• 5:52Guy Raz?

  Teen Vogue is actually where Lindsay started her professional career in fashion, as an intern cleaning out the fashion closet. Now, if you've ever seen The Devil Wears Prada, it is a massive room filled with designer shoes, gowns, hats, scarves, bags, and accessories.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  My points of reference for fashion were, you know, I worked at Payless growing up. Like, I wasn't like, I really knew anything about fashion. I, um, I liked being creative, but it honestly wasn't until college that, uh, one of my professors actually took me aside and said, you know, I think maybe you want to try it at a magazine. You really like to read, um, you really like to write, like, you want to be creative. Maybe this is the outlet for you. And so she had actually sent me a listing for a Teen Vogue internship. That was literally just schlepping, cleaning the closet, the fashion closet, nothing glamorous. Um, and I remember telling her, I was like, they're not going to accept me. Like, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Um, this is when like The Hills was on TV and there was a lot of reality television

• 6:54Speaker 01

  around working in fashion. Um, but they said yes, and I was really hooked and excited. And so I did a ton of different internships, um, to try to figure it out. I did, you know, I tried celebrity styling in LA, realized I don't want to work for a celebrity. Um, I did a lot of, um, you know, design classes and, and realized I don't really want to work at a design house and I really want to work, you know, in editorial. And so I just hustled a ton and moved out here to New York after I graduated from college and emailed everyone furiously and ended up getting an entry level job at Teen Vogue out of school.

• 7:27Guy Raz?

  Wow. Is there, I mean, there's, as you say, like The Hills and, and there's a kind of a mythology about what it means to be in the, in the publishing world, especially in the fashion publishing world. And obviously, the ever was Prada, everybody knows that, that film and book. Is there any truth to that? Is it quite as cutthroat as its portrayal?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Incredibly, yes. The, the cutthroatness, yes, made sense, but I didn't realize, I think, the layers before I got into the industry. And I think a lot of times I thought it would be more microaggressions as far as racism, but then it was a lot more overt racism, but also classism, elitism, nepotism. Um, and it, it hit me really hard when I started working in fashion officially when I left school because I just felt incredibly lost. And I think also just coming from the Midwest, you, you do have a certain naive presence about you and just expecting a niceness and kindness out of people. And I really felt those.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  For a very long time, but especially those first couple of years that I just wasn't going to cut it because I was black and I wasn't rich and I was always working three jobs. And so I wasn't able to afford like, you know, the luxury designer to wear to work. And I always had to work, you know, go somewhere after the job. So I was always rushing of after the job, I would maybe go to another shoot and I or I would, you know, change mannequins at the DKNY store. Weekends, I was always waitressing. And I just felt like it was very much the odds were against me, but I felt like I had something to offer. And so a lot of those first couple of years was spent really trying to figure out, should I stay or should I go back to Wisconsin?

• 9:08Guy Raz?

  And you've written a lot about this over, over the course of your career, including a really famous piece that you, you won awards for. But I want to ask you, what was it that, that gave you the, the strength or the, the feeling that you wanted to stick it out and stay and, and despite all of those things that you, that you saw and experienced?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it was thinking about my family and the sacrifices that they made for me. My parents just worked so hard to, to send my sister and I to, you know, good schools and, and be so involved in our lives. And I was close with both of my grandmothers, one of whom passed last year. And I don't, I just spent a lot of time thinking about, these people have done so much for me and given so much for me. And I don't have the right to give up yet. Like, I haven't earned the right to be lazy. I haven't earned the right to give up. These people have given their lives and sacrificed so much for me to even try to do this. And I think just the realization of, you know, the things that they had to do, even when I think about my grandmothers, they both were really into

• 10:13Speaker 01

  fashion and, and wore Sunday best and always really dressed up and, you know, the most beautiful hats and gloves and most amazing outfits with so little money. But, you know, their day jobs were, you know, just regular jobs. My, my grandmother in Wisconsin, she worked at a steel factory. My grandmother down south, she worked at a cotton mill. And I just think about that because I think for me, it was like, you know, they had to do all those things to make ends meet. And so I don't really feel like I earned the right to just say, I'm tired of this and I want to give up. And, and I always think of them.

• 10:47Guy Raz?

  Lindsay, you started your position as editor in chief at The Cut in the middle of a pandemic. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's worth pointing out that It's not just being the editor in chief. It's being the manager, being the leader of a team of people. And that is incredibly complex to do in a normal time when you're walking into an office and you're the new face and then you're the leader. But to do that remotely, I can't even imagine how complex it is. Walk me through your first kind of weeks at The Cut and basically starting this job remotely.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually didn't have a break from leaving Teen Vogue to The Cut. I ended Teen Vogue on a Friday. Monday, I started at The Cut. And so it definitely was a switch in my mind of like, OK, now we have to switch gears here. I mean, I think for me, it is always about empathy. This past year has just been insane for everyone on so many levels. Myself, I lost six family members to COVID. And so I felt like, God, I don't even, you know, some days I just didn't want to work. Some days I just felt like, you know, I wish I could be around my family. This is the longest time I've gone without seeing my family. And I think remembering that and also just having so many conversations with people

• 12:06Speaker 01

  one-on-one was really important to me because everybody's headspace is a different place and I don't want to assume anything. And I think for me, it's also just really important to never think too highly of myself. All these accolades and things are wonderful and I'm super appreciative, but it's always going to be about the hustle for me and I don't ever want to take that for granted. And so for me, it's never coming in and being like, well, I am important and let's hear the sound of my voice. No, I want to hear from everyone. And so I've just taken a lot of time to have one-on-ones with everybody and hear how they're doing, how they're feeling, what they need from me, what they're needing as far as their growth in their career and their path.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  And I think just taking that time to let people, I think, explain where they're at instead of me bulldozing my opinion is the way that I really like to manage.

• 12:59Guy Raz?

  I think this has probably been one of the hardest years also to be a manager, to manage people because of the isolation of the pandemic and all of the The things that that entails. And you know, there are people probably have an impression of an editor in chief as somebody who gets to do all these fun, creative things only and look at the, you know, the finished magazine and make changes. But that's only part of the job. A big part of the job is managing people in an organization. How have you kind of learned how to do that? Or how are you learning how to do that? Because it's so hard. I mean, it's hard for anybody and I can't even imagine doing it remotely.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'll never forget when I left Teen Vogue, a couple of the staffers had said to me that they just appreciated how much of a human approach I was as a manager. And I thought that was probably one of the nicest things that anyone had said to me because I think a lot of times it can feel, in the past for me, being managed by a lot of different people, it felt like the manager was just separate and I'm above you and I talk down to you and I'm leading this and you're the team. And I really have tried to make sure that I am having that human approach, that I'm not separate. If you feel like we're losing or we're not doing something, then that means I'm losing and we're not doing something. And I think just leveling that equal playing field is really important.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  But I think also, just having those conversations that you probably wouldn't have all the time or wouldn't have had before this past year. And I think just having that transparency is really, really important for me because I think as a writer, I always felt like people maybe weren't interested in investing in me enough or maybe communicating things to me enough. And I never want people to feel like they have to guess what they're getting with me and understand really how I feel about their work or where they're going or what I need from them. And so I think the transparency piece is also incredibly important.

• 14:55Guy Raz?

  I read that you, this past year, you stopped making plans on the weekends, that you were feeling so burned out. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I can relate to that for sure. So burned out, I'll be honest with you, I didn't even want to show up to my studio here this morning because I just, it was one of those mornings, you know, where I just felt. Burned out and I can't, I can't explain it. It's not, it's not connected to anything in particular, but I think a lot of us are kind of experiencing that silently. How do you cope with burnout? How are you dealing with it?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  You know, it's an easy thing to say, but a hard thing to do. I have to turn everything off. Honestly, I mean, technology and social media are great because you can connect with all these people and we're able to do things like this, but the less people can reach me, the better because I just need to turn my brain off. And I think especially in media, your brain is constantly on because even if you're like, let's say, watching a new TV show. For me, it's never just let me enjoy the show. It's like, oh, do we need to cover one of the people in this show? Do we need to write about it? Do we need to critique it? Did we miss this moment? Your mind just continues to go. And so even in the things that I do for my enjoyment time are usually things that are very separate from my job.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  So a lot of people who, if they follow me on social media will know, I really love to cook. And that's enjoyable for me because I have to use both of my hands and you know, I'm not like checking Slack or I'm not on social media. And I just need something that completely uses a different part of my brain to be able to relax. And I think, I think over the years and in going to therapy, I just realized that a lot of things that I was trying to do in my downtime, I was still really anxious and where I was still just on my phone the whole time if I was watching something or trying to do something else. And so my husband was the one who actually told me like, even hanging out with your friends, he was like, just do it during the week. So on the weekends, you can just be still. And it's been really helpful and it, and it sounds strange because you're like, I

• 17:00Speaker 01

  mean, yeah, you wanna, maybe you wanna hang out with your friend on the weekend or something like that. And obviously I would make exceptions if somebody had a birthday or if I felt like it, but it was really nice to not make any commitments to anyone for two days.

• 17:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  And I, and I just needed that.

• 17:16Guy Raz?

  How would you sort of define how you have grown as a leader over the last year? I can't imagine what, in some ways, like as difficult as this past year has been, it's also been. Probably for so many people I've interviewed, like an accelerant because it's forced them to interrogate themselves and their own approach and to improve. How do you think your style has changed or what you've, how have you, what have you learned about the way you lead?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  I think, honestly, to slow down a bit. My mind runs a million miles an hour. And I think especially last year with the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, there were just days that it's not normal for me to not know what to do. And it's not normal for me to feel like I don't know what else I can do because I'm just so heartbroken in this moment. And I think that made me realize that I just needed to slow down and figure out, okay, like, this is a moment that, that as a Black woman, I have to grieve, I have to understand,

• 18:29Speaker 01

  I have to be able to move through, but also use my platform, use, you know, what we're given to be able to make a difference and to be able to, I think, push culture forward and have really important conversations. And I think usually I'd be like, okay, let's do this, let's do that, da, da, da. And it was a big learning experience for me to, you know, I have to, I have to feel these feelings as well, even though I'm managing people, even though I'm running a site. And that's definitely been a learning curve for me.

• 18:58Guy Raz?

  When we come back, more of my conversation with Lindsay Peoples-Wagner and how she's working to hold the fashion industry accountable to be more inclusive. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This, Resilience Edition from NPR.

• 19:21Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This, Resilience Edition. I'm talking with Lindsay Peoples-Wagner. She's the editor in chief at The Cut. A few years ago, she published a piece on the site called Everywhere and Nowhere: What It's Really Like to Be Black and Work in Fashion. In the article, she interviewed 100 Black professionals working across the industry, and it became a critically acclaimed and widely shared article. Last year, almost two years after writing that piece, Lindsay saw an opportunity to turn that conversation into accountability. So she co-founded the Black in Fashion Council.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  When I did the original piece, which was a few years ago, it felt like, I think, last year, in having so many conversations with different POC in the industry, that it was time to take it to the next level. And I think it really felt like all these narratives are out. We told all these stories of what is happening, what needs to change. And basically, a lot of people in the industry have read this and then some. So what needs to shift in order for there to actually be a shift in the industry overall? And just got on a lot of Zooms with my co-founder, Sandrine Charles. She has her own PR firm. And we decided to partner with the Human Rights Campaign on a corporate equity index

• 20:39Speaker 01

  and actually make an industry-wide, I think, business plan as far as how do we make inclusivity holistically part of your business plan? I think specifically, fashion and media, everything that we do is so subjective as far as who we think is cool enough, who we think is worthy, who we think is on-brand. And that's really hard to rate. That's really hard to put against numbers. And I think what we saw was a lot of these companies having the right policies that were really inclusive, but not actually putting the policies into practice or really doing the front-facing things of MLK quote on Instagram, or their runway or their cover

• 21:21Speaker 01

  was a POC, but then internally at the company, there isn't diversity. Internally, the company, they don't actually really care about POC and being promoted or senior-level executives. And so it really is that holistic approach and a lot of the work that we're doing to make sure that, I mean, the goal is one day that DEI won't have to be a separate initiative for companies, that everyone inherently cares. And the bar, I think, is Higher as far as what we accept.

• 21:49Guy Raz?

  We're getting a bunch of questions in from people watching. I want to get to some of them. A lot of them are mentorship questions. And I mean, what a great mentor you are. This is from Nicole Calazo Sanana, who is actually an NPR intern. Nicole asks, what advice do you have for young journalists who are graduating into this pandemic?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Oof. I mean, I know it seems bleak and I know it seems tough, but if you have a perspective and you have laser focus on what you're writing about, there's always room for that. I think finding your specific voice is really important because I think Twitter has made people want to write for Twitter and want to go viral, want a piece to do really well on Twitter. And I want writers, especially young writers, to just understand that's not the end all be all. Just because a piece doesn't do well on Twitter doesn't mean it isn't good. And I think a lot of times, people are writing in that vein. And I want young writers especially to just understand that that validation only goes

• 22:51Speaker 01

  so far. And what you really need is to hone in on your voice.

• 22:55Guy Raz?

  Here's another question. And forgive me for my pronunciation, but I believe it's Mandib Mpufu via YouTube. And Mandib asks, have you ever dealt with imposter syndrome? Being a young, black woman in such an influential position? And if so, how do you navigate that?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  So I have an interesting answer to this question. I'm prefacing with that. Honestly, I have long felt like I'm equipped to do what I need to do. And I never try to boast of how smart I am or whatever. Nobody cares. And I'm not that kind of person. But I also just think, especially in the world, but also in fashion, there have been a lot of white people who have had jobs that they were not even equipped for that had the role. And so I don't ever feel that way because I feel like I am continuously and always going to be a hustler. I'm usually the most ambitious person in the room. So I've never felt like, oh, am I good enough?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  I feel like honestly, there's always too much pressure on me to overperform in every single way. And that I think that pressure has been interesting to try to figure my way through.

• 24:07Guy Raz?

  You've had such a successful career in publishing. What advice would you give to somebody who wanted to work at one of the magazines that you've been at? How should they sort of approach their career?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  My advice I always give people is to make sure that you are hungry to do the work and less thirsty for attention. I think a lot of people look at me and think, oh, you get to do all these cool things, but I will still do whatever it takes to get the work done. I am not the person that is like, well, let me go find someone to go do this because I'm the editor, so I'm not doing that. Nothing is beneath me, nothing. And I think when you're hungry to do the work, that's something that's inside of you that no matter what job you have, it doesn't matter. You're just excited to do the work. I'm excited to make great work. That's why I'm doing this job. And, you know, the social media accolades, all of that, I think is a nice additive,

• 25:05Speaker 01

  but it's not, you know, the reason why you should be doing it or your motivation behind it.

• 25:10Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, in terms of, you know, we were talking about this a little bit before we went live, but it seems to me that it's unlikely that once the pandemic is, let's say, sort of over and we're not wearing masks, let's say, and we can interact in close quarters again. It seems unlikely to me that we're going to go back to 2019. You know, it just seems unlikely. It's possible. I think I'd be really surprised. How do you imagine, you know, the sort of the post pandemic work environment? How do you think that's going to kind of play out for you and your team?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  I talk a lot about boundaries with team and I think healthy boundaries is is a great conversation to continuously have.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  There is no such thing as perfect work life balance. I don't think that's ever happened for anyone. And I think even for myself, it was like, I knew in starting this job, I was going to just have to kind of swing to, okay, I'm going to be working a lot later nights and I'm going to be working harder than once I'm able to get in the swing of things with people. And that's okay. And I think I definitely had the past couple of years, this pressure of like trying to get it right in that balance, but it has been more of a harmonious rhythm of like, okay, a little bit there, a little bit there. And just being okay with that as far as work schedule and then finding a better balance in it that's not so rigid and perfect.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  But I've definitely had a lot of conversations with people on just having those healthy boundaries. I feel like everyone, especially being at home, it's hard to, it's hard to close a laptop. Everybody feels like you have to be on all the time. And again, like, there's too many ways to to get in contact, like it's Slack, email, text, social media, all these things. And so I do have a lot of conversations with people about just being mindful of like, how often, how late, all of those things, because I think that it can be really exhausting for people.

• 27:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah, absolutely. Another question from viewer Janesia Britt. Janesia asks, what is bringing you joy right now?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Honestly, I I wouldn't consider myself a super optimistic person. I'm more of a cautiously optimistic person. But I I'm really hopeful for the future and I think a lot of really important conversations that we've been forced to have. I don't think. I've ever had so many conversations about racism in the workplace and and just race, you know, with coworkers since last year. I mean, I think that in itself was like, oh, I actually feel like things will shift and things will get better because we're finally having a lot of these hard conversations. And that's brought me an odd sense of joy, even though it's obviously come from a really sad place, but it makes me really hopeful

• 28:09Speaker 01

  that we're at least having a lot of these conversations more often and then it's not something that feels hidden or siloed. And the warm weather helps, so.

• 28:19Guy Raz?

  Uh, this is a question from Jada Hill. Jada asks, when did you know that it was time for you to leave Teen Vogue for another role, for another company?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  I knew probably, I I knew that I had outgrown some things, but people love to talk about my age in every interview. There's like a weird fascination around this, which is totally fine. But I think I obviously like knowing me and and anyone who's close to me has always joked that I just act a lot older than I actually am. And and my parents always felt like I was, you know, really old soul, even as a child. And so I was really wary of leaving because I felt like people would also kind of, people like to also weaponize how young I am when I make certain decisions or say certain things of like, well, you're young, you wouldn't understand, or well, you're young, you're

• 29:10Speaker 01

  jumping around from thing to thing. And so I felt like I had outgrown it at a certain point. But honestly, I felt very worried about kind of being labeled as someone who would just jump from thing to thing because of my age. So it it took a while for me to then actually make a decision to leave.

• 29:29Guy Raz?

  There are some questions about Teen Vogue, and you don't have to answer them. But I'm, I'm, obviously, there was an unfortunate series of of things that happened at Teen Vogue after your departure. The editor, an editor was hired and the editor never took the position. There was opposition from the staff about the editor and some tweets that she had sent out. I'm sure you followed the story, and I'm sure it was painful for you to see that happen at a place where you worked for so long.

• 29:56Guy Raz?

  What do you make of what happened and sort of the outcome?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I don't believe in cancel culture. I don't think it's productive. I'm a person of faith, so I am really invested in forgiveness. I'm really invested in redemption and I'm not perfect and none of us are. And so I never want to, I think, promote any of those things. But I love that staff dearly and it was very hard to leave that job because I love that team so much. And we became really close like a family. So it was definitely hard to watch, but I'm super proud of them and I'm super excited for all they have coming up. One of the team members, Danielle Kwateng, she was the culture director that I brought on and she just got promoted to executive editor.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  So I'm really, I'm really excited for them and it's a really great team. So I'm excited for the future.

• 30:48Guy Raz?

  So now you are running this really huge, very sort of internationally visible site. What are your plans for The Cut?

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Oh, so many. I always have literally 24 tabs open on my computer.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  No, it's crazy because, you know, I worked at Teen Vogue before and then came back as editor in chief. And I worked at The Cut before and coming back as editor in chief. So a lot of it is informed by, you know, things that I wanted to do back then. But then how do we do that in a different way now? And I, I just was always really hungry to, I think, make sure that we were being as inclusive and intersectional as possible. It's funny now, but I probably really annoyed Stella when I worked at The Cut before because I would come into her office with these long deck PowerPoint presentations of, I want to do this and I'm going to shoot this person. And she would say yes, and she would let me, you know, go fly and go pass some ideas.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  And I would have to do them from the ground up, which most people didn't want to do because it was a lot of work. But I, you know, came to her a couple of years ago and I said, oh, you know, Issa Rae, SZA, Dua Lipa, all these people are going to be really big. Like we have to do something. And she's like, great, you can do the whole thing. And so I would, you know, reach out to their agent and Find a location and produce the whole shoot and style them and write the interview. And I just was really hungry to do a lot of those things. And so I think a lot of that has also informed of how I want to make sure that we're really leading culture and we're not just, you know, chasing after, I think, a lot of stories that other people are going after. And I'm super, super grateful. The staff is incredible.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Everyone is really kind and I think we're gonna have some fun. I'm excited.

• 32:33Guy Raz?

  You mentioned boundaries a few minutes ago about what will happen when you go back to the office. What are some things that you have appreciated about this past year that you want to take with you as a leader in the next phase of whatever our world may bring us?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a Toni Morrison stanza that I really love. It's from The New Yorker and it's a longer piece about work. And I used to actually have it up when I worked at The Cut in the office before. And I just always have it up on my computer because I think it's so important. And I mean, Toni's the god, so we bow down. But the first stanza says, whatever the work is, do it well, not for the boss, but for yourself. And I always think of that. You make the job, it doesn't make you. Your real life is with us, your family. And the last one, you are not the work you do, you are the person that you are. And those are things that I've been reciting to myself and I keep it up on my computer and other places and I keep it on my phone.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  But I really, I think it's easy to get caught up in the titles and in the chase and in the goals and all of that. And I don't want to ever get lost in that. I love what I do. I love this work. I have just this innate desire to make great work that little Lindsay wanted to see. But I'm doing it for me. I'm not doing it for all of these other things. And I think that's something that I'm consistently reminding myself of.

• 34:02Guy Raz?

  That's an excerpt from my live conversation with Lindsay Peoples-Wagner, the editor in chief at The Cut. If you want to see this interview in its entirety or any of our past live interviews, you can find them on the How I Built This Facebook page or at youtube.com/NPR. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger with help from Farah Safari, J.C. Howard, Bruce Grant, El Manion, Gianna Capadona, John Isabella, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Janet Oujong Lee. Thanks for listening. Stay safe, and I'll see you in a few days. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This, Resilience Edition from NPR.