How to Make Any Person Feel Seen with Will Guidara

Most people think hospitality is just about service. Will Guidara believes it’s about making people feel seen. In this conversation, Will and I talk about what it really means to care for people well—whether you’re leading a team, managing a business, sitting across from someone you love, or just trying to become a better communicator. From turning Eleven Madison Park into the #1 restaurant in the world to helping create the hit show, The Bear, Will shares the mindset that changed everything for him: the smallest moments often leave the biggest impact. We talk about thoughtful criticism, leading with grace, creating team culture, and why the best communicators listen for what people aren’t saying. Buy Will’s book, Unreasonable Hospitality and the field guide we dug into in today’s episode - https://www.unreasonablehospitality.com/books Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Our Place. Visit https://fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code JEFFERSON for 10% off sitewide. Upwork. Visit https://Upwork.com right now to post your job for free and connect with expert freelancers who can help you grow faster without adding full-time overhead. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. On today's episode, my guest is Will Gadera. He is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Unreasonable Hospitality. If you see a bright yellow book in an airport or a bookstore, it's most likely Will's. He is fantastic. He is the former co-owner of the restaurant Levin Madison Park in New York, and under his leadership, it was named the number-one restaurant in the entire world. And he is also the co-producer of FX series Emmy award-winning show, The Bear. There are so many gems from this conversation. We talk all about the art of hospitality in conversation. How do you bring creativity and deliver more than just the minimum expectations? And how we interact with one another? We talk all about how to have the right kind of meetings, how to get attention immediately,

• 1:15Jefferson Fisher?

  how to navigate the right way, and at the end of the day, how to do it with grace and kindness and a little bit of something spontaneous that you never expected. Enjoy. So you go to a restaurant, and then it's easy to kind of pick up on those little moments. I imagine even when you're working, and even if you're just there hanging out, like, it's almost impossible for your eyes not to be just, like, hyper vigilant the whole time.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Well, so like, with intention.

• 1:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  The other night at dinner, I sat in the chair facing the window.

• 1:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I noticed that.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  I will always, if there's a chair where I'm looking at a wall.

• 1:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  That's where I'll sit.

• 1:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Just because I've gotten pretty good at it, but like, I don't need... It's like an addict hanging out with like heroin on the table. It's unnecessary.

• 2:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, you don't need to be doing that.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  I don't need the distraction because I will invariably like, wait, why are they?

• 2:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, and all of a sudden you're and then you're gone.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  And then, and then I just missed the most beautiful part of the conversation that I helped to perhaps set in motion.

• 2:19Jefferson Fisher?

  I get that. I have, uh, one of my best friends, uh, was a policeman forever. And still he sits always where he can see the door. Like, that's just, he, he, he's, he's not gonna sit anywhere. He can't feel comfortable not looking at a door when he's sitting down.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  So I do the opposite.

• 2:36Jefferson Fisher?

  You do the opposite. Well, yeah, cuz you don't wanna see it. And one thing I was gonna-

• 2:39Speaker 02

  But also, my work doesn't have the capacity to save someone's life.

• 2:42Jefferson Fisher?

  That's true. Well, you are training the Heimlich, you know what I'm saying? Like, he might be. And I was gonna tell you, uh, this is a little gem. Most people don't know. So when I, uh, was at my old, uh, first law firm, big defense firm, and I was getting the itch of, I'm in my mid twenties and who, everybody in their mid twenties thinks, I know this better than everybody. Like, I'm the smartest. I know this. I'm right. Everybody else is wrong.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:13Jefferson Fisher?

  And I was really wanting to learn business of like having my own business. Cuz I went straight from law school into big law and, and doing that life. And-

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Business as in starting your own firm?

• 3:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, yeah, or, or just, uh, what, how do you, how do you have your own employees? Like, what's that? How would you even do that?

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:31Jefferson Fisher?

  And so COVID, my, one of my best friends, amazing chef by himself,

• 3:39Jefferson Fisher?

  and he had just got let go of this restaurant. And then there was this like, I don't know what they call it, class A commercial building that had a restaurant in it that was looking for a new person to come in. And so I came in with him. And we opened that little restaurant.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  You actually did it?

• 3:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh huh. And a coffee shop right next to it, like a

• 4:00Speaker 02

  No way.

• 4:01Jefferson Fisher?

  American food little place that did really well. And, and so I learned all about plate costs and all of like

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Were you actually in it?

• 4:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, dude.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  You're like on the floor?

• 4:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  No way.

• 4:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. And so it was, and I would help out on expo and try all the different.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. And, and so it was.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Is that restaurant still there?

• 4:24Jefferson Fisher?

  It's still there. I, it's, it sold my part. If like I got, it was like, I could either try to get an MBA in business or I could just put the same amount of money into.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Go work in a restaurant for a while.

• 4:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah. And, and doing it, even though many would say not the best business model for, for certain things. But it was, it was fantastic. And I, and I, what I learned a lot. And I think whereas I wish I had had, and we're going to talk into this field guide that you have. I'm, I'm genuinely not a jealous guy.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 4:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Alright. This field guide, as soon as I saw it and got it in my hands, I was like, doggone it, this is so good. I wish I had had that.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 5:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Because I came in and a lot of my creativity, which I think.

• 5:12Jefferson Fisher?

  I know I'm, I'm actually a very creative person that just went into law and life has led me back.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:19Jefferson Fisher?

  To doing more creativity is I got focused on brand. I got focused on the right logo, the right tagline, the right like aesthetic.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Instead of just

• 5:31Jefferson Fisher?

  serving people to what they were above and beyond.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:35Jefferson Fisher?

  And exceeding that expectation. And I know a lot of your stuff is, it's not just hospitality is not meeting expectation. It is exceeding it and giving people more than they think they could ever deserve.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:47Jefferson Fisher?

  And, and so that was my like.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I need to make sure I mentioned that to him.

• 5:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you, Dan. So I wish I'd had, I wish I'd had that. But I got in and out. I was, I had it for like, uh, four years.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  And you had fun?

• 5:59Jefferson Fisher?

  I did. I had a blast.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  And you learned a bunch?

• 6:01Jefferson Fisher?

  I learned a bunch. I had some of the biggest laughs I've ever had in my life. Just.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Also, there are a few things.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  There are few groups that will ever be as close

• 6:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  As a group that has opened a restaurant together.

• 6:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 6:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Cause it's the entire emotional gamut.

• 6:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Like you have all the highs and the fun and the laughs. And then those moments when you're on expo.

• 6:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  And you're like, I was a very successful lawyer. How does my brain have an inability to figure out, how to figure out what plate of food goes to what table? Within what frame of time? And like, and then there's the teamwork to figure it out. I love that.

• 6:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm. And the thing was, at the time, the law firm was like shut down for a year. You know, because they were trying to still get with the times of remote work.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  So you had space.

• 6:54Jefferson Fisher?

  And so, yeah, I had space. And because it was a commercial building, we were able to do a lot of stuff that others weren't. And take advantage of proximity and six feet or whatever. But man, I laughed some of the hardest I've ever laughed.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  So fun.

• 7:07Jefferson Fisher?

  In being back at house, doing stuff like that. And we, um, we had, uh, it was also some of the worst hurricanes. And so we were able to provide a lot of food for first responders. And so, and so we're making

• 7:20Speaker 02

  didn't that

• 7:20Jefferson Fisher?

  food at like 4am.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Let's open a restaurant. Then we have to figure out how to work within all of the adversity that is COVID.

• 7:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  You know what? What else would be cool? Hurricanes.

• 7:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Anybody got it? Anybody? Yes, that's it. Hurricanes, let's go. Man, and, uh, but mine is just a small fraction of just the depth of, of knowledge that you have in this industry. And I, I do, I absolutely want to get into the, the field guide, which I am just thrilled to be one of the first to get it in their hands.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  But what you articulated, like the brand.

• 8:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  And it is very, very common for someone to get like, all right, I want to be really creative about the food on the plate. I want to be really creative about what plates we use, about what the room looks like. I want to be creative about what the logo is and the tagline and the uniforms and yet. The one thing that people will actually remember is where people stop being creative.

• 8:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  And

• 8:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Where they stopped.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Where they stop. No one, very few people rather invest their best efforts into just the big and little things that make people feel a sense of connection to, to a place.

• 8:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I think that's so right.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  And it's so counter, like the moment you say it out loud like that.

• 8:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, well, that makes sense.

• 8:53Jefferson Fisher?

  But yet.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  But yet.

• 8:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, but yet. I, um, you, you have the book Unreasonable Hospitality and I'm going to be able to share with my audience all of your background, but I, I, my mind always turns to communication.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:10Jefferson Fisher?

  And so I, I have been toying with the idea of like, what is the equivalent of unreasonable hospitality in communication? If, if we define hospitality as you do, the creative intentional act of making people feel seen, heard and cared for.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Above and beyond the service, you know, what does that feel like, look like in communication? So I was curious in your mind, what, whether it's relationships, whether it's team, because I do want to talk team. What do you find are those moments that have been that unreasonableness that you benefited from in conversation with people? So some of your best friends?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I think a lot of your work centers around hospitality.

• 10:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  I really do like those two words, creativity and intention, I circle back to often, right? I think the most beautiful things happen at the intersection of those two things, right? The intention of saying, I want to communicate this. Cause a lot of people in communication are not very intentional about what is coming out of their mouth.

• 10:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Like as opposed to saying, what am I actually trying to communicate? Okay, it's this, then creativity.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  What's the right way to communicate it such that the message will actually be received? And depending on the context, in a way that is supportive and not destructive, or thoughtful and not insulting, right? And when it's that kind of communication? Or if you're attempting to make someone feel some level of affirmation, they're actually communicating to them in a way that they can receive it well.

• 11:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  So like on the, I talk a lot about feedback.

• 11:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  I think you cannot create anything extraordinary in a business absent, like creating a culture where feedback is the norm. And when I talk about feedback, yes, I'm talking about praise, obviously. Because when you set really high expectations for people and they meet or exceed those expectations, you better be there to celebrate them.

• 11:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  A, because it's the right thing to do. But well, B, the more praise I receive, the more praise I want to receive.

• 11:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Right? You're telling people what right looks like and you're encouraging them to do more of that. And not to mention the fact that in a group, if we're having a daily huddle and I'm celebrating the heck out of you.

• 11:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Everyone else in the group is going to be like, I want a piece of that.

• 11:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  So obviously praise, but I think we focus so much on praise that we don't spend nearly enough time focusing on criticism. Because if praise is affirmation, criticism is investment.

• 12:11Jefferson Fisher?

  So if we can say an equivalent of unreasonable hospitality and communication is the value of criticism done right.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Thoughtful criticism.

• 12:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Thoughtful criticism.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And in the same way that I've watched your videos where you're like, hey, if you want to do this, like, do this.

• 12:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Right?

• 12:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. There were some other ways that you could.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 12:34Jefferson Fisher?

  It was kind of like your idea of like, there's a better way to do this.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  There's a better way.

• 12:37Jefferson Fisher?

  You walk into a restaurant, a hotel, you know, there's a better way to do this.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  But with criticism, I mean, unreasonable communication and criticism.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Is recognizing that there's like things you need to keep in mind if you want it to be thoughtful, if you want it to be an investment. Let's criticize in private, not in public. Let's criticize the behavior, not the person. Remember that I'm telling you to wear white socks, not telling you're an idiot. You know what I mean?

• 13:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  You're great.

• 13:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Just do this differently. To criticize consistently. Because some people are so uncomfortable with investing in someone else's growth through criticism that they don't do it until they're either in a bad mood or have the energy and

• 13:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Two things happen when you are inconsistent in criticism. People don't actually know what right looks like because they could do the same thing three days in a row. And they're only getting called on it the third. Or a negative connotation is attached to it because you only do it when you're in a foul mood, right? And so you do it in a bad way.

• 13:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you think that there's like a line between just feedback, general feedback and also criticism?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  I think criticism is a type of feedback.

• 13:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  I think praise is a type of feedback. And criticism is a type of feedback.

• 13:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Not all feedback is criticism.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  No. If you do something great, my feedback is, hey,

• 14:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  You crushed that.

• 14:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  That's feedback. Or if you do something not so great.

• 14:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  But listen, anyone that wants to grow, if they're not receiving criticism, they're never going to become their most fully realized self.

• 14:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, you have to have it.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  It's like if, do you see a trainer?

• 14:26Jefferson Fisher?

  For?

• 14:27Speaker 02

  To like a physical trainer?

• 14:29Jefferson Fisher?

  This is all organic, brother.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  That just comes to you as wake up like that?

• 14:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  All right, well, I do.

• 14:35Jefferson Fisher?

  I probably would benefit from one.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  I just started this year and it's a game changer.

• 14:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Is it really?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  What it's done is I spend

• 14:42Jefferson Fisher?

  I need somebody for nutrition. Like I need somebody to help go, you need to eat these things because if I'm not careful with school drop off and everything, I will miss breakfast and I turn around and it's two o'clock. And it's like, okay.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  And then you're eating the least healthy thing in the

• 14:55Jefferson Fisher?

  For sure. And then, and then it happens that I'm really not hungry for 5:30 PM dinner with my kids. And so, you know, I, not my best, that's what I need. Okay, so trainer.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, it's a great thing to have in my experience because I get as much done in half the time. But If I'm doing a workout not the right way, I want him to tell me what I'm doing wrong.

• 15:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Otherwise, I'm just wasting time and I'd rather invest that time efficiently and actually get stronger by result of the investment.

• 15:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. And how much stronger you could get if you just move your form just like a little bit.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  But if every time the trainer was like, hey, do this, bro, stop talking to me like that.

• 15:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I'm doing it right.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Guess what he's gonna stop doing?

• 15:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Correcting me.

• 15:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Because it's too exhausting to give me the feedback.

• 15:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. First off, uh, my mama has their pajama set, which I gave to her last year. They, the company sent them to me like, here, maybe your mom's gonna like these. I was like, let me send them to my mom, who, let me tell you, is the type of person who likes the salt and pepper everything. So she's extremely particular about all the things. And she told me so much that she loved these. I got a text from her three weeks before Mother's Day, asking me if I still had my code for Cozy Earth because she wanted some more pajamas. I said, Mama, I will get them for you. So y'all know, I got her some more pajamas, but that's how good they are. So if you, whether it's Mother's Day or not, who cares?

• 16:26Jefferson Fisher?

  If you know a mom or you're a mom, or you're just somebody who likes to sleep in a full set pajama, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code jefferson, and get up to 20% off. They have a 10-year warranty, awesome product, awesome company. cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code jefferson for 20% off. Let's keep going. When I was on the way, knowing this conversation was coming, I was like, wow, I'm just wrestling and kind of chewing on the idea of, to me, what is that unreasonable hospitality in conversation? And the theme that kept coming up for me is grace. Grace can be an unreasonable thing, like an unreasonable feeling.

• 17:10Jefferson Fisher?

  And it draws that line between mercy and grace. Mercy being you don't get what you deserve.

• 17:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Grace is you get what you don't deserve.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 17:27Jefferson Fisher?

  And so, so much in conversation, like you might deserve me to give you that clap back, come back insult right in your face.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:40Jefferson Fisher?

  It would be unreasonable for me.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:42Jefferson Fisher?

  To have pause and decide that your worst moment is not going to determine how I respond.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Do you know the, the phrase that I learned from my longtime mentor, his name is Danny Meyer, is Danny Meyer. It was one of the central tenants of the company was charitable assumption.

• 18:01Jefferson Fisher?

  When you say the company, I want to.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Uh, unreasonable, uh, Union Square hospitality group. So that was like Gramercy Tavern, Union Square Cafe. It's where I came up.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  And there's a whole nother idea about communication from that company, but and he had these isms, like these short succinct.

• 18:20Jefferson Fisher?

  I love a good ism.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Bordering on cheesy. Articulations.

• 18:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Of his non-negotiables.

• 18:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And every time he made an idea into an ism, it was like a meta signal to all of us in the company that that thing mattered.

• 18:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Um, one of them was charitable assumption. Charitable assumption is another way of saying, give people the benefit of the doubt. Or ask the question before you say the thing.

• 18:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  So I'll give an example. Um, someone comes into the restaurant and they're just a jerk. They are just a jerk. They're acting like a jerk. Now, it's totally reasonable for me to say, he doesn't deserve my best hospitality.

• 19:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  The charitable assumption though would have me say instead.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Gosh, maybe on his way to the restaurant, he found out that someone died.

• 19:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Or his wife filed for divorce. Maybe the guy acting like a jerk actually needs my hospitality more than anyone else in the room. And for me to have that conversation and engage accordingly.

• 19:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Now, sometimes just so avid, the person was just a jerk.

• 19:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Turns out, yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  But I'd always rather err on the side of assuming the best in someone and being proven wrong than err on the side of assuming the worst and being proven wrong.

• 19:46Jefferson Fisher?

  I think that's so true. That just, if you can keep in your mind those maybes, you know, rather than they are exactly what you think they are.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:54Jefferson Fisher?

  And sometimes maybe they are.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:56Jefferson Fisher?

  But maybe they're not.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  But it's the same thing when you're managing people. Someone comes in and they've been like five minutes late to work for two weeks straight. And because I'm not criticizing consistently, I wait until I'm really upset.

• 20:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  And I just rip into them like, do you not care about this job? Like, why do you think it's okay to disrespect us by coming in?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Charitable assumption would be like, hey, what's going on? Are you okay? Like, I've noticed you're five minutes late every single day and is there a reason?

• 20:34Speaker 02

  And by the way, maybe it's because that person, I'm speaking New York right now, lives in Queens and there's two different buses that get them to Manhattan on time. One would have them arriving at the restaurant an hour early. One has them arriving five minutes late and they have to get their kids to school.

• 20:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Okay, now I've asked the question. Now I have that information. Now I can say, you know what? Why don't we just shift your in time back 15 minutes?

• 20:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  You know, like-

• 20:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Just a little bit like that.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  And now that relationship, had I reacted the first way, it would have been damaged.

• 21:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Reacted in the second way, now it's actually stronger.

• 21:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Because now I feel like I'm actually invested in them, not just as an employee, but as a human being.

• 21:16Jefferson Fisher?

  And you gave them some grace.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I learned something along the way.

• 21:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. And that in itself can be unreasonable.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Which, which is, um, I think the, the state of things sometimes, it, doing the kind thing can be and feel unreasonable to the given, to the given moment. Now, you have managed- I mean, just the number of teams and the number of pressure. And I have heard your story of how Love Madison party just went under your helm to the number one restaurant in the world, which is just bonkers.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:56Jefferson Fisher?

  But the level of determination, not for just the food being perfect or this being perfect, is that you cared just as much about your team as you did about the people that you're serving. And so there are people that will be listening to this who have their own business, who are small business owners or big business owners that they are people managers. And so what I was really curious about, what are some of the questions and things that we need to think about as people managers? So what are some of your big like tenants? You're going, hey, if I have everybody on hand, I know you have, what do you call it, premale?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Premale.

• 22:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. So those kind of like meetings, how do you? How can we better manage people?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Well, okay, let's start with premale because that's one of my favorite places to start.

• 22:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yep.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  And I'll frame what that is. So premale is the 30 minute meeting we have every day with our entire team right before we unlock the doors and go into service. And it's a meeting that most restaurants have, and yet it is one that is almost always wasted.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  And a wasted premale that happens when, well, you spend the entire time talking about ideas that could easily be communicated via an email, like operational concerns. Because that meeting, it's called a daily huddle, right? In other worlds, is in my view, the greatest opportunity a leader has to actually step up and lead the people around them.

• 23:25Jefferson Fisher?

  So it's taken our daily huddle seriously.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Taking it very seriously.

• 23:30Jefferson Fisher?

  For the regular mom and pop business, the small business out there, when you have, one, it's understanding daily huddles are a necessity.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you require that it be every day or is it?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  I mean, listen, I never, when I'm talking to people in other industries, I never want. Um, perfect.

• 23:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  To be the enemy of the good.

• 23:51Jefferson Fisher?

  A cadence that works.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  A cadence that works and the cadence should be more frequently than you're comfortable with.

• 23:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, that's a good basis.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Well, because most people, when they start doing this, they kind of start at somewhat the bare minimum.

• 24:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  And there is always time to do something if we decide it's an important enough thing to do.

• 24:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Got it.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Um, I did thirty minutes a day before lunch and before dinner. So an hour a day, seven days a week. That is obviously not necessary.

• 24:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  But some number of minutes, and when you have your team circled, it's not just focusing on the what, but on the how, and more importantly, the why. When, as a leader, we are walking through the world looking for things that inspire us so that we can bring them home and share them with our teams. It like, I'm, I've benefited from the popularity of TED Talks. And yet I think those are so successful because as human beings, we crave inspiration.

• 24:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  And very few people in our lives have answered the call to actually step up and inspire us. So many companies spend so much time focusing on training, which is important, obviously. And yet, training absent inspiration is wholly insufficient because I don't care how much, how well you know how to do a job. If you're not inspired to want to do it really well, you're never going to bring your most fully realized self to the table. I think a lot of leaders, even the ones that have that meeting, there's something about people that holds them back from bringing their most passionate self to it. Because we've all been on the receiving end of this at some point, like, passion is contagious.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  If someone steps up in front of you and speaks with every ounce of their being why the work you are doing matters, how you can impact other people, why taking it seriously is a virtuous approach to take, why there's fun to be had or connections to be made, whatever it is.

• 25:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  I don't think a lot of people can like fully understand that. I, I think communication with your team. People need to stop trying to be so cool and just be really, really, really excited. Because that bleeds into those around them.

• 26:13Jefferson Fisher?

  That's hard for some people. I mean, I'm thinking of, like, you have a, the history of what you've created, empowered and gave autonomy to your team to say, hey, when you see those magical moments that we can create unreasonable hospitality. When you overhear that table talk about going sledding or wishing they had a, you call it dirty dog?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Dirty water dog.

• 26:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Dirty water dog. You know, the hot dog. And you're like, you know, how can we create these? Yeah. Cultivate these experiences with them. That is exciting because it's like, you don't know. Every day is a new adventure of what could come up. And so that unexpected surprise. And I hear in my mind, those people who, I don't know, they're a plumbing industry. Or they're, they're a fabrication shop, or they're a small accounting business, you know, of ways that they go, that sounds great, but I'm not in a restaurant. How can I possibly get excited about the fact that we do this and that and this?

• 27:20Jefferson Fisher?

  And what I hear you saying is, you're focusing on the wrong objective. You're, what you need to be focusing on is, what are ways that you can inspire yourselves to be excited about what you're doing? And if you're excited, Yeah. Other people are gonna be excited.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  The people around you will be too. But here's the thing, it's not just a restaurant thing. I think there's nobility in service.

• 27:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  And I'd say nine point nine out of 10 of the people that are listening to this are in the service industry.

• 27:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  They're in the business of serving other people. Like,

• 27:53Jefferson Fisher?

  I am.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  I think about the world that you came from.

• 27:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  I would love to run a daily huddle in a law firm.

• 28:03Jefferson Fisher?

  You can do it for me, my man.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  But do you know what I mean? Like, so many people focus so much on the objective that they forget about the people they are there to serve and the anxiety and trepidation with which they're walking into that room. You are there to defend them, but you were also there to walk with them through an unbelievably scary experience.

• 28:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  And remembering that it is much more than pleading a case.

• 28:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  It's actually like defending a human being during some of their darkest moments. And if that is not noble, I don't know what is.

• 28:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  But I'm saying I could do that about any industry.

• 28:39Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm sure.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Because I genuinely believe everything matters. It's just about how you look at your world and how you celebrate the impact you can make.

• 28:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we continue, I want to take a moment to talk to you about our place. Got a question for you. When's the last time you've thought about what you're cooking with? In other words, the pan itself. Are you still using that pan from college? Well, let me tell you, you can upgrade. We love at our house, in our kitchen, our place. They have this four-piece cookware set where it's like two, what they call always pans, and two perfect pots. And they're awesome. Let me tell you why they're awesome. Because Saturday mornings is dad breakfast. And what I very much value a pan on is if I can do an egg, put some butter in there or and have an egg go perfectly. Well, you can with this always pan.

• 29:30Jefferson Fisher?

  It's my number one go-to, aside from the cast iron that we keep in the back. And it's been fantastic. So if you or somebody who also cares about what you cook with, in other words, it's nothing that's like Teflon, PFAs, what they call forever chemicals, something that's clean and you know it's going to do good for you, look no further than our place. So stop cooking with toxic cookware and upgrade to our place today. You can go to fromourplace.com/jefferson, use code Jefferson for up to 10% off site-wide. Plus, you get a 100-day risk-free trial with free shipping and returns, which is awesome. That's fromourplace.com/jefferson for up to 10% off, code Jefferson. Now, let's keep going.

• 30:13Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to make sure we don't leave it up, me feeling like this, we button this up. So when it comes to communicating and people managing in teams.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:23Jefferson Fisher?

  One is you need to have. Take seriously the, a repeatable cadence of communication with your team. Does it need to be in person or can it be virtual, you think?

• 30:31Speaker 02

  I think it can be virtual.

• 30:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, it just needs, whatever it is, it has to be consistent.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  And it needs to be, you need to be prepared for it.

• 30:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Is there a certain way that you run the meeting in terms of, we're going to talk about this, this and this? Or is it just kind of top of mind?

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Well, so the way I always did it, I had notes that every single person on the team would be given a piece of paper.

• 30:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, you give them a note?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then the paper was kind of everything, all the stuff I needed to make sure they knew.

• 30:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Depending on the company and the industry, it's different, right? Like, health insurance enrollment begins on this day, this policy changed, this is a new system we're implementing, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Now they have all the information I needed to communicate literally in their hands. No one can ever say.

• 31:15Jefferson Fisher?

  I didn't give it to them.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  I didn't get the email.

• 31:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  I didn't check the portal or whatever. It's literally in their hands. If I have a few housekeeping notes, I'll say that at the top. And then I will come in to that meeting.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Prepared in the same way that I am now when I step up on a stage.

• 31:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  I'll say, all right, I want to tell you guys a story of something that happened to me last week. And da, da, da, da, da, da, I'll tell the story. Anyone doing, anyone who's ever done public speaking knows stories make ideas stick. And then I'll talk about the lesson that I learned from it. And then we'll talk about it as a group.

• 31:53Jefferson Fisher?

  How do you end it?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  I would always end with this, the, the way the meeting started would be, what's today?

• 32:00Jefferson Fisher?

  April 4th.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Wednesday.

• 32:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  So I'd always say, happy Wednesday. The entire group would say back in unison, happy Wednesday.

• 32:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Just to start it.

• 32:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  And then at the very end, I would say, have a good service. And they'd all say back, have a good service.

• 32:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Just because I believe in rhythms and rituals.

• 32:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I mean, there's, there's, there's a reason why people will say, turn to the person next to you and say, you know, I believe in this, you know, whatever it is. When the people say it together, there is a feeling of that unison.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  And also like when you watch one of those locker room speeches at halftime on a movie and the team comes back and wins the day.

• 32:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's go.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  It's so fired up because at the end they put their hands in, rah!

• 32:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  I would always say, every day is the Super Bowl. Like every day you walk into service, you need to take it seriously as the biggest game of your life. Otherwise, there's people you're serving. That might be the only time they ever come into the restaurant.

• 32:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  So you better take it seriously for them.

• 32:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  And there's something beautiful about team sports. And I think it's remarkable to me how many leaders played team sports in high school and college, and yet don't take some of the lessons they learned from team sports into how they lead a team.

• 33:08Jefferson Fisher?

  I can see that. I think I I more and more believe that managing people is a very particular skill. It is a skill that can be learned, but it is not easily taught. Like, it's not something that without kind of being plugged into a system where you get shown how to do it.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:28Jefferson Fisher?

  It's it can feel kind of like you're in a lost place. Like, I hear you saying, okay, I have a I have a way that I start. I have a way that I end. Whatever industry, you create it how you want to create it. Say what you want to say.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Be as goofy and as you and genuine as you want to be.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:45Jefferson Fisher?

  But there's some things that you're gonna have to hit. And I love that you go, I'm giving you the information that I already know in black and white, you gotta have to have. Two, I get to talk of what's on my heart and put it in a story.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Because everybody's got stories because we all live. You can just say what you did yesterday. But relate that to the point that you're wanting to hit home, whether it's something that is specific to a special moment, or a way that they have created impact.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:10Jefferson Fisher?

  And so I think even if a company were to pull up their latest Google review and read it to their team.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 34:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, you know, I mean, just to go, just as a reminder, that person you touched is, this is how this is.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Like, and also, like, finding and seizing and talking about inspiration as a practice, it's a muscle that you strengthen. You don't need it right away. Like, in the beginning, hey, I was listening to Jefferson's podcast yesterday, and he said this, and it stuck with me. And I want to share with all of you. Tell me how you react to it.

• 34:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great premale. Because now you're actually flexing your brain. And when you think together and dream together and create together, it brings people closer.

• 34:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  The other thing I would always do, I worked Monday through Friday.

• 34:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Very, very long days. We're still open on the weekends.

• 34:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Now, what's what's a long day?

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Nine AM to midnight.

• 35:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, yeah, that's a long day. That would count.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  For a long, long time.

• 35:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, sure.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  On Saturday, when you got the schedule, there would be a star next to one person every Saturday, which meant you're running premal.

• 35:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  And that gave them a heads up because I do believe public speaking is a leadership skill.

• 35:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  And also, once you've delivered that speech and you know how hard it is to do it well, you're going to be one of the most attentive people next time you're on the receiving end of it.

• 35:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, right.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  And so the more you can push people outside of their comfort zone and have them actually lead, the more ready they are to become leaders when their days arrive.

• 35:42Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that. So actually changing who gets to lead it, like whoever's doing it and you're getting to change every single time. Man, I think that's a great idea for people to have for every team meeting that they have. Somebody else run it.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Because then, then you all share in both the privilege and the horror. You know, and the anxiety of leading. And, and then it doesn't go, oh, great. Okay, we got Greg again reading, you know, leading meeting here. It's okay, it's Lisa's turn. Oh, it's a different breath of air. You know, it's always changed.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  There's always that quiet person on the team.

• 36:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  And sometimes they will stand up in front of the team and just stun people.

• 36:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Knock their socks off.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  And then the confidence, like anyone you've ever seen that steps up on stage for the first time.

• 36:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  And is celebrated for the work they did. It changes their confidence level.

• 36:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  And that confidence spills over into everything they do.

• 36:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. I think that's sometimes the beauty of like inside jokes.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:46Jefferson Fisher?

  You know, because it's something that we share.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:50Jefferson Fisher?

  And. Because we can kind of riff off each other and have that level of bond. Like if it's two people, whether it's, you know, they're look, working on, it was the cold line or whatever. And they're like, you know what I mean? And they're, or they're prepping for the day, like just to have that sense of, you have to find ways to make the mundane fun.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:15Jefferson Fisher?

  And sometimes that, to me, is the same thing we do in conversation.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Well, an inside joke makes you feel like an insider.

• 37:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  And that's what we all want. We all want to feel like we're a part of something. And the fewer people that are a part of it, the more special it feels to be a part of it.

• 37:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Like, that's why I love creating words within an organization, like or isms, like charitable assumption. Or we used to have all these little, like if you, let's say, if I still had a restaurant, now we've become friends.

• 37:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  You come into the restaurant, I'm not there, I'm just gonna send a text. Jefferson Fisher dash table forty two dash crush him.

• 37:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  And what that mean, everyone on my team would know what that means, which means like, there's seventeen different things we can do to elevate someone's experience. Do as many of them as feels natural to what, what he's doing there tonight.

• 38:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Crush him.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Crush him.

• 38:06Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  If I were to say that to someone else, they wouldn't even know what I was talking about, but to my team, it's clear.

• 38:12Jefferson Fisher?

  They said, that right there is gonna have to be a special experience for whoever is there that night at the table.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Or another one, this is actually, it feels like it fits into, to your work. Um, D B C.

• 38:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Was another one of our isms, which doesn't, listen, no matter what you do, restaurants are an extreme version of this high-paced.

• 38:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  You know, chaotic environments.

• 38:36Jefferson Fisher?

  It's, it was mad.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, people can get into the weeds, then when you get into the weeds and you start to get overwhelmed, that's when you start making mistakes.

• 38:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  And that's when you need someone on your team to tell you to chill out or calm down.

• 38:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  And yet. Have you ever told someone who was overwhelmed to chill out or calm down and had it achieve the desired effect?

• 38:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Never, never.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  So D B C, one of my best friends, his name is Andrew Tepper. He and I went to preschool together. He's still one of my best friends. He, um, he got a graduate degree in social work and he does a lot of amazing work with kids. And he was working at a psychiatric hospital. There was a lot of kids there and he felt like the therapists were just over prescribing sedatives. When kids were having difficult times. So he went to his parents basement where they still had silk screening equipment from when he was a kid. And he designed these really cool T shirts that just said in block letters, D B C. Which meant the deep breathing club.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  And he wore one of them to the hospital and all the kids were like, dude, that's such a cool T shirt. He goes, do you want one? And they're like, yeah. And he goes, here's how you get one.

• 39:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Here's how you get one.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  And all they had to do was overcome a potential meltdown three times in a row through deep breathing and deep breathing alone.

• 39:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Six months later, half of the kids in the hospital were wearing D B C shirts. And the amount of sedatives being prescribed had dropped dramatically.

• 40:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Deep breathing club.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  I brought him to the restaurant. I had him lead pre meal a bunch of times over the course of a month. And I said to the team, I was like, guys, sometimes people here lose their cool. They need to be told to calm down. They need to be told to chill out. And yet we all know that never feels good. So we're just replacing the words. Now it's D B C.

• 40:28Jefferson Fisher?

  I love it.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  And so literally every night, someone would just walk over to someone else and just whisper it in their ears like, hey, D B C, I got you. What can I do?

• 40:35Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  And the simple change. Yeah.

• 40:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, but like, but also having somebody come alongside you and be like, hey, I got you. I got your back. I've been there because in when you're back a house.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:48Jefferson Fisher?

  And you have that chef or the person, and then there's like, it's just like the bear. It's like you have people yelling and like, you realize in that moment, they're just stressed out.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:59Jefferson Fisher?

  That's not who they are.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Their energy is impacting you negatively as opposed to your energy impacting them positively.

• 41:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly, you know, you worry about this, I'll worry about, and it gets into that. I wanna, I wanna know a little bit, so you. Co-produce FX The Bear.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Which is just the wildest thing. Again, I'm not a very often a jealous guy, but you the creativity projects that you're in.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 41:22Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm like, God, that's so cool. All right. So I first I want to know, you know, when you, how do you get involved in this project? And then how did you make sure that what is on film? I know there's other writers and a whole cast of amazing people that are helping bring this to life, make sure that it reflects exactly kind of what was going on and what you've seen in your whole experience in Eleven Madison Park and everything else.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Well, so I guess how I got, I was not involved with the bear from day one.

• 41:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  I got to know Chris Store, who's the creator of the bear. Awesome. Awesome guy.

• 41:58Jefferson Fisher?

  That's cool.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Unbelievably creative. And by the way, one of the most remarkable leaders, like the way that every single person, regardless of position on that show is treated and how they all feel such a genuine sense of ownership and the product as a whole. And I want to share one thing they did in a moment to reinforce that. But they did the first season, all of a sudden it's a hit. At this point, I'd gotten to know him a little bit. And he came to the release party for Unreasonable Hospitality, like the dinner that I had when the book first came out. Then season two is about like three months from coming out and he emails me and they were doing all the editing in Brooklyn. He's like, Hey, can you come out to our offices some point in the next couple of weeks? I

• 42:44Speaker 02

  want to show you something. I was like, yeah. So I go out and they show me episode seven of season two, it's called Forks. And the entire episode is effectively right out of my book.

• 42:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  And it's this beautiful episode, literally lines of text. There's things in the script that are verbatim, what was in the book and this whole story. And my book has a famous story about a hot dog and it's reimagined as a deep dish pizza in the episode.

• 43:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I want you to tell them, tell them real quick that the hot dog story, yes, they need, they need to hear it. It's so, it's too good.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  So the, so the hot dog story, it's one of the stickiest out of the book. And by the way,

• 43:27Speaker 02

  It's an example of why stories make ideas stick.

• 43:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  That happened with me in the restaurant as we were really trying to figure out what unreasonable hospitality meant. I'd written it down because I knew there was something in that approach, but didn't yet understand how it would be brought to life.

• 43:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Meaning you wrote the words down.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  I wrote the words down. I want to be unreasonable in pursuit of hospitality. Great.

• 43:55Jefferson Fisher?

  And you have, and you're managing 11 Madison Park at the time.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay. Which for anybody who doesn't know is just the most amazing restaurant.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  And it was already like, at that point, we had three Michelin stars. We had all the stars, but I wanted to be the best.

• 44:09Jefferson Fisher?

  That's mind blowing.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  That was, thank you. Thank you.

• 44:11Jefferson Fisher?

  That's mind blowing. And what, you were like top 20, something like that?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Well, no, I wrote those words down when we came in 50th.

• 44:17Jefferson Fisher?

  That's right.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Of the 50 best.

• 44:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Okay. Which is still like.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Still, but that's just not how I'm.

• 44:21Jefferson Fisher?

  And you were like.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  In that room, I was last place.

• 44:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Anyway, one day I'm in the dining room on a busier than normal lunch service. The team is in the weeds. And so I was doing what I would always do when I was helping out the team. I was just clearing dirty plates. Mostly because my dad, one of the lessons he taught me when I was coming up, he goes, hey, the further up in the hierarchy you find yourself, when you choose to help, just do the most menial thing as often as you can. Because it's a great way to communicate to your team that you're never going to ask them to do something you are either unwilling or incapable of doing yourself. It's a great way to show your fire as a leader.

• 45:00Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that. So whereas, meaning the higher up you go in the hierarchy.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:05Jefferson Fisher?

  If it is as simple as gathering up a trash can and rolling up and tying up the bag.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Just do it.

• 45:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Like you need to show the signal that you're not above anything.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  And you can also do it.

• 45:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. You're not going to ask them to do anything.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, hey, I'm not above it and I can actually do it pretty well.

• 45:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  As I was clearing appetizers and it was this table of four, they were foodies, like Europeans on vacation to New York, but just to eat at restaurants.

• 45:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  And this was their last meal. They were headed straight to the airport from the restaurant to go back home.

• 45:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  And while I was there, I overheard them talking and they were just raving about their trip. They'd been to all the fancy French four star restaurants and now 11 Madison. But then one woman at the table jumped in and she said, yeah, but we never got to have a New York City hot dog.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  And it was just one of those lightbulb moments from a cartoon. I went into the kitchen, dropped off the plates, ran outside of the hot dog cart, bought a hot dog, ran back inside. Then came the hard part, convincing my fancy chef to actually serve it in our fancy restaurant. But I asked him to trust me.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Even more so, I told him it was important to me.

• 46:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  That, that is another articulation we'd use a lot. This is important to me.

• 46:20Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to make sure I set that aside. That's, that is a big deal. Like even in relationships.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:25Jefferson Fisher?

  This is important to me. Saying those words.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Is a different, higher caliber of communication.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so we can come back to that in a little bit. And eventually he cut the hot dog up into four perfect pieces, put one on each of the plates, add a little swish of ketchup, one of mustard, a little scoop of sauerkraut, one of relish, topped it off with a micro herb to make it look fancy enough. And then before their final savory course, which at the time was our honey lavender glazed Muscovy duck that had been dry aged for two weeks.

• 46:54Jefferson Fisher?

  As one.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  As one, as one eats for lunch on a Wednesday.

• 46:56Jefferson Fisher?

  I had one yesterday.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  I brought out what we in New York call a dirty water dog.

• 47:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  And I explained, I said, hey, I ever heard you talking? I didn't want you to go home with any regrets. Here's that New York City hot dog. And dude, they freaked.

• 47:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Did they just lose it?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  I mean, at that point, I'd served really fancy food, tens of millions of dollars worth of it at some of the best restaurants in the country. I had never seen anyone react to anything I'd served.

• 47:22Jefferson Fisher?

  You served like the highest quality of beef, seafood, the top of the top of the top. And here you give.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:28Jefferson Fisher?

  A New York, just off the street, hot dog, and he just loses his mind.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, and it's in those moments.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  In so many businesses, every single day, someone does something spontaneously that is brilliant.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  That's not what defines the company, though. What defines them is if they identify that something great just happened and they slow down for long enough to figure out why it just happened. So they can put intention to the intuition.

• 47:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  And it was, it was a few simple things. It required being present.

• 48:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Listening.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  I wasn't looking at what I needed to do next. I was just so fully focused on that table that I stopped caring about everything else. And that's why I was able to pick up on the line. Second, it required, yeah, obviously, we took what we did seriously.

• 48:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  But as a rule, I've never taken myself that seriously. And I think far too many people in life or companies in business, we're so focused on perfecting brands that we are not focused enough on just pursuing people. We end up with these self-imposed standards that effectively disrupt our ability to give other people joy.

• 48:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  A hot dog is not on brand in a four-star restaurant. But who cares when you look at how it made them feel?

• 48:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  And then, and then third, like this idea that hospitality is just making other people feel seen.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  And the best way to do it is not to treat people like a commodity. One size fits all will only ever take you so far. It's the same reason why at Christmas I don't buy everyone in my family the same present. I buy people individual presents based on who they are.

• 49:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Imagine buying your wife the same present you did last year.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Honestly, I looked at your facial expression before and it really seemed like it worked.

• 49:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Thought I'd get it for you again.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. But in unreasonable hospitality, one size fits one.

• 49:34Jefferson Fisher?

  One size fits one.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  And so those three things, be present, stop taking yourself so seriously, one size fits one, and that hot dog.

• 49:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Changed everything for us.

• 49:43Jefferson Fisher?

  And what you do so well in the, in the book, and the book is full of these examples where you go, you could have just heard the conversation and go, ah, it kind of blows for that guy, didn't get a hot dog. Okay, next, next table. Instead, you said, what if, right? And, and built off that. And then you hired somebody specifically for creating these magical moments.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Someone there is a resource to help everyone.

• 50:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Create them.

• 50:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Because I think what's important is everyone on the team needs to be empowered to come up with these ideas. You just need to make it easy for them to deploy those ideas.

• 50:18Jefferson Fisher?

  They have them.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And by the way, I mean, it happens to us all the time in life. How many times have you seen something or thought like, man, that would be really cool to do for this person? Gosh, I'm too busy.

• 50:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  And we hired a person onto the team just so all you had to do is say, hey, Emily, can you do this? And it would make it happen.

• 50:38Jefferson Fisher?

  I'd say my habit is I'll say, you know, once this is done, then I will. Like, it's easy to go. This is just a really crazy week, but after this, I'll be able to get to that. And then it's funny how there's always another.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Do you know, I was in a, I did a talk and in the meet and greet afterwards, a guy came up. He's like, you know, we have this expression in my family and your speech really made me think of it. Never let a gracious impulse pass. And gosh, I love that.

• 51:12Jefferson Fisher?

  That's, that's some good stuff.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Because how many times do you have them? And when you have them, the whole idea is just do it.

• 51:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  And I was literally at the, the Goodwill that weekend with my, with my kids. We call it the treasure store.

• 51:24Jefferson Fisher?

  A treasure store. It's pretty apt, too.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  And basically every so often, we call it treasure store day.

• 51:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  We have to go up into the room and we take 10 things and we go give them to the Goodwill and then they can buy one thing from the Goodwill.

• 51:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  And Andrew, the guy, the D B C guy, when we were growing up, he loved the band Sublime. And he would literally like busk on the streets, play Sublime songs. And we're in the treasure store and I see a Sublime T-shirt in his size.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  As we're, like an old school Sublime T-shirt. And I just heard this guy say, never let a gracious impulse pass.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  If I'm being honest, like a version of me would have seen that and been like, man, Andy would like that. And I gotta buy it and then I gotta put it in a box and go to the thing. And I would have just walked right past it. But this one, I was like, no, I had a gracious impulse. I can't let it pass. I took it off the thing and sent it to him. And he was like, dude, that was the coolest gift.

• 52:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Isn't that awesome?

• 52:23Speaker 02

  It took all of 15 minutes and probably $2.

• 52:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Just to have that.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  But just do it. And if a gracious impulse, do it.

• 52:30Jefferson Fisher?

  So recognizing those, those gracious impulses, not just in relationship, but also in your own business of the way that you can.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Life, yeah.

• 52:40Jefferson Fisher?

  I think when you, again, in the book,

• 52:44Jefferson Fisher?

  To me, it's like, if you ever wonder which ones wills in the store, just look for the brightest yellow one. That's the one. That's the one. That's the one to get. You need to go get it. It's like in every airport. Yeah, just whatever. By the way, have you, I would assume you love this. I would assume you know him. I don't know him. Maybe one day. Of the guy who started the Savannah Bananas?

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Jesse Cole.

• 53:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes. Okay. Also yellow.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  He is amazing, by the way.

• 53:14Jefferson Fisher?

  But I'm like, that's like right up your kind of.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  He spoke at my conference in New York last year.

• 53:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, well, then there you go.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  And.

• 53:21Jefferson Fisher?

  I see a lot of like parallels with just.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Their work is very, very similar to ours. Just three Michelin star restaurant and a minor league baseball team and how they kind of came closer to one another.

• 53:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. And I think that's, that's just one of the many examples on which any business, I think, can do this. And I know y'all train a lot of these businesses where you go out, a lot of service industry folks of how can you, because they need a little bit of help. They need a little bit of push. They'd be like, I, we just need to get some of that unraisable hospitality.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Just get a little bit of that.

• 53:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me of my dad and I love, oh, brother, we're out there because it's just so quotable.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:03Jefferson Fisher?

  And he goes, we need to get some of that reform. And so he's like, because the other guy's a reform candidate. And they're like, maybe we need to get us a little reform. So that's, you know, sometimes you just, you need that push because sometimes you need somebody on the outside.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  For sure. Well, it's just easier. You see things with fresh eyes.

• 54:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Upwork. You grow, you and your business grow not by doing more things, but by doing the right things and letting go of the rest. And I know what I struggle with sometimes in several businesses that I've begun is that delegation is a problem because I would rather sometimes spend way too long, too many hours trying to look up how to do something or work some other platform when I could have just gone to Upwork. Upwork has a selection of seriously, some of the best freelancers out there for everything you could possibly want to do. I'm talking about data and analytics, software and development, marketing, business operations, people who want to do a logo or video editing or help with a brand, you name it, they're all there.

• 55:06Jefferson Fisher?

  And so what's so great is that instead of spending weeks of trying to research something, Upwork already has them. It has a full profile. You can see all the work they've done. You can see their portfolios for things. I've hired people from Upwork and I have not been disappointed. So if you want the best of the best, Upwork's Business Plus gives you access to the top 1% of talent with AI-powered matching that connects you with the right freelancer in under six hours. That's pretty incredible. It also handles contracts and payments all in one place, which means less admin for you, which means happier life for you as well. So thousands of businesses are already using Upwork to scale smarter. It's free to sign up and posting a job is simple. Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free.

• 55:49Jefferson Fisher?

  That's upwork.com to connect with top talent, ready to help your business grow. That's U.P.W.O.R.K. com, upwork.com. Let's keep going.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  But so, okay, back to the bear.

• 56:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  They asked me to go out there and they show me this episode.

• 56:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  And literally at one point, the guy is walking, holding my book and reading it like voraciously in the episode. And they're like, is this cool? Effectively, they asked me to go out there to say, is this cool that we used a lot of stuff from your book? And I was like, well, yeah, obviously it's cool. It's beyond cool. I'm so flattered. This is amazing.

• 56:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Like my book is now in one of the hottest television shows in America.

• 56:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  And that's when they were going from the little beef stand and they were about to open a proper restaurant. And in the same meeting, they're like, also, can you join the team and be a writer and a producer as we move into this next season? I was like, well, heck, yeah. You know those moments where I'm like, I don't know how much you're paying me. I don't care.

• 56:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Am I alive right now?

• 56:50Speaker 02

  The answer is yes.

• 56:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Am I awake?

• 56:52Speaker 02

  And man, it is so fun. Your question was, how did I ensure that things were actually real?

• 56:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  And it's television, so it's all dramatized a little bit.

• 57:02Jefferson Fisher?

  But it's, I mean, it's about as close as it can get to what it really is.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  And, and I think it circles back to the culture on that show. Like.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  I mean, some of the actors on that show are now

• 57:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Phenomenal.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Not only phenomenal, but also really famous.

• 57:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that too.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Right? And when people get really famous,

• 57:26Speaker 02

  oftentimes they stop being as good at listening, or they don't necessarily feel the need to learn as much. No one on that cast is like that.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  I mean, there is one episode, one of season three, Carmy, the chef, picks up a tray to bus a table in the morning. And I was like, are you cool if I show you the right way to do that? And he's like, yes, please. Something that simple. He just wanted to know what right looked like because if you've been in the restaurant business, like he, like his character had been, you would know

• 58:06Jefferson Fisher?

  The right.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  The right way to do it. Or how to expo, like I did expo classes.

• 58:10Jefferson Fisher?

  That's cool.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  I mean, the most fun thing is I basically got to design a restaurant and never have to run it. You know, like the plates and the florals and there's all these stories within the story that most people would never even notice, but.

• 58:23Jefferson Fisher?

  But I mean, how cool is that? You just get to kind of live in that, that creativity. So I want to make sure that I, I don't, you don't leave without me asking some of these is, I mean, I could text you, but this is too good. Of when you're thinking, you know, the, the hot dog moment and all of the other stuff in your book. I love the one with the sled of like all these others. Is what made the difference is you led and empowered your team by example to listen.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:58Jefferson Fisher?

  None of that happens without having the specific and right ear for it.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Because you're not, you're not listening. To the conversation, you're listening to the need.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:09Jefferson Fisher?

  That is almost unspoken.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:11Jefferson Fisher?

  And so it's not like the guy said, man, you know what would be great? If somebody brought me a hot dog. You know what I mean? And you didn't say that. He just, and so you heard the need that wasn't even exactly spoken. And I feel like in conversation and in teams and especially with customers, clients, you're having to have the right, to train your ear for the right kind of needs. And so I don't, how did you do that? What did you teach them to listen for anything?

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, by the way, I mean, you know this better than anyone. You're listening not just with your ears. Right? Like, I think I've have found that you can teach people how to do something. And you can be like, hey, if someone says this, like, just go back in, in the conversation before you even arrived there, like, where did that thing come from? You might not have heard it, but, and where could it go next? The sledding, someone says, our kids have never seen snow before.

• 1:00:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Okay, so where does that go next?

• 1:00:22Jefferson Fisher?

  What could it be?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  What could it be? Like, I think the best experiences are when you dream of the world you wish existed, and then you invite someone else into your imagination.

• 1:00:33Jefferson Fisher?

  That's a good one.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  So like, all right, they've never seen snow. These are kids. What do kids love doing in the snow? Sledding. Oh, my gosh, let's go buy them sleds right now.

• 1:00:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. These spontaneous moments.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  But then even the things that you don't hear. I mean, the stories that get celebrated the most out of the book are the more over the top ones. But like,

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  you can tell when someone's on a first date, right? The moment you go over and greet them at the table, it's pretty clear when you've done it long enough. And you can tell without having to be at the table, whether the first date is going really well, or whether they're just struggling to find their groove. You can tell when people are talking to one another a ton, or when there's just a bit of awkward silence. Okay, so unreasonable hospitality doesn't mean having to buy a hot dog. It could mean, gosh, this guy's having a hard time getting a conversation going. I'm gonna go hang out with them at the table for a little bit. Okay. And I'm just gonna start talking to them and I'm gonna try to get them laughing and I'm gonna try to get them each to put their guards down. And then I'm gonna leave

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  and hopefully I've gotten them up to enough of a momentum.

• 1:01:42Jefferson Fisher?

  I love this. Okay, I love this. So that's what this is, my brain's going is it's not just listening with your ears. It's also listening with your eyes.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Whereas every time with a customer or a coworker or somebody coming into your restaurant, or somebody you're in a relationship with, it's listening with your eyes. How are they reacting?

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Jefferson Fisher?

  And so you have the privilege in a restaurant, when you see some of the most intimate moments, you go, this date's not going well. Or somebody is fighting, you can tell it's tense and they're having a hard time in their marriage, maybe. Or two guys who are talking about a business deal or something. And just for that brief moment, the, the staff is able to kind of, the waiter, the waitress are able to kind of be able to curate something to say, let me listen with my eyes here. What else is, read the room.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Sometimes like, based on what's happening over there, maybe I should just stay away.

• 1:02:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that too.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Like they're having a really good conversation. How many times have you been halfway through a story at a restaurant and someone comes over and says, how's it going?

• 1:02:49Jefferson Fisher?

  And you're like.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  Can you just leave me alone right now? Like you just ruined the punchline.

• 1:02:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. The worst is like when you're in serious conversation.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Jefferson Fisher?

  And some cheery young guy comes in and is like.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Fight with your wife at the table.

• 1:03:01Jefferson Fisher?

  And you're like, my man, can you not see that like, we're hanging on by a thread right here.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  We're barely holding on.

• 1:03:10Jefferson Fisher?

  No, we just, no, I don't, I don't need a refill. You're good. Yeah, there's, there's those moments too, but it's like when you, when you can also like, listen with your eyes and see the reactions of other people and how does that translate to when you see that person who is running five minutes late and they look frantic or they look hurt or there's things going on, you can tell beneath that surface. It's, it's not just go, well, you didn't say anything, but you saw it.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  I mean, it's the same thing in life though. Like how, how many times you invite people over to your place and if you actually just take a moment intention and just look at everyone in the room, you can pretty quickly tell the person that just feels awkward.

• 1:03:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Maybe they just don't know anyone and they're not good at starting a conversation or something. They feel out of place. It is so easy to just be the person, never let a gracious impulse pass that walks over and says, hey, Joe, come here. I want to introduce you to Jefferson.

• 1:04:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  You guys both play the drums.

• 1:04:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  That's unreasonable hospitality, but you just, you cared enough to identify what needed to be done and then to do something with what you saw.

• 1:04:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  And like, I'm just saying it exists everywhere. It just, by the way, it's so cool when you get to do that for other people. So why not just do it all the time?

• 1:04:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Well, why not? Why not just do it every day?

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  I mean it.

• 1:04:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:37Speaker 02

  Why not just do it all the time?

• 1:04:39Jefferson Fisher?

  I, I truly think the world would be just so much more fun. And I think when you can find ways to be more spontaneous, more creative.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:50Jefferson Fisher?

  You know, like what I would often try and do is just have conversations in the most random of places, just to like, just switch it up, even if it's at like an ice cream shop, like just, you know, like I, when I first was starting my, um, the new law firm, that's what I did. I would try and have a conversation with the client of like, I was like, you don't want to go sit in my office. Let's go.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's go sit somewhere at this. I know a lot of people do a coffee shop or like, I would do a park or it just because let me show you that if I can at least bring a little bit of.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:05:25Jefferson Fisher?

  You know why I like this part? This park reminds me of this time I was with my dad and I did this and like just to be able to share a little bit of that context and story is enough for them to trust you more. Than any degree they'd see on the wall in your office.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Well, and also you just said something that makes me think of two things. One, I don't mean to talk about Andrew this much, but he's he's a therapist now and he doesn't do therapists in an office. He lives in the Hudson Valley and there's two ways to see him. You can either go on a hike with him or you can go skiing with him.

• 1:05:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Skiing?

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, my goodness. How do you?

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  On the lift.

• 1:06:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, on the lift. Okay, that's awesome. I'm terrified of ski lifts, but.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  So then go, you do the hike.

• 1:06:09Jefferson Fisher?

  I'll do the hike.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  You do the hike, yeah. Or you do cross country.

• 1:06:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  But also what you're doing, you're bringing them to a park, you're changing the environment. I think a lot of communication is, I mean, for me, communication is about connection.

• 1:06:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  And connection happens when people let their guards down. And part of that is earning informality and just changing an environment into a less formal environment is a way to fast track the idea of earning informality.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  But the other thing you do in offering the thing about you and your dad and why you love that park is you're offering up a piece of yourself, which is an invitation to them to do the same in return.

• 1:06:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  We did this thing.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  I went to a restaurant in New York and on the menu it said, don't tell us if you're allergic to anything. We don't make substitutions in the food. I was like, okay, this is unreasonable, but not unreasonably hospitable.

• 1:07:06Jefferson Fisher?

  That kind, that almost sounds illegal.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, like it's just rude. It's like.

• 1:07:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  And so I went back to the restaurant and I was like, I want to go, I want to run hard in the opposite direction of that. Obviously, we asked about allergies.

• 1:07:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  But this is a tasting menu. Certain people don't like certain things. So I was like, I want to spend the next month coming up with endless permutations of everything we serve. So that at the beginning of the meal, we can say, are you allergic to anything? Also, is there just anything you don't like or anything you're not in the mood to eat tonight? Let us know and we'll make sure you don't see it.

• 1:07:41Jefferson Fisher?

  That's a great one.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  But here's the thing, we started it. And by the way, it took a long time and it was expensive because.

• 1:07:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Took a long time for what?

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  To redesign an entire menu.

• 1:07:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Because if you have chicken that's served with mushrooms and someone doesn't like mushrooms, it's not a good experience just to remove the mushrooms. So now you have to have an entirely different chicken dish to serve them.

• 1:08:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  But it was important to me. And so we did all this work and then we started at day one. No one told us a single thing they didn't like. Day two, no one told us a single thing they didn't like. So now we're just throwing away food that we've been prepping. And I was like, what is going on? And so I took a station. Meaning I was a waiter on day three or four. Cause sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to actually just get in there yourself. And again, first table, second table, third table, no one's telling me anything. And I was like, I wonder if it's this. Which is this was like Anthony Bourdain had his show and there are all these shows about people traveling around the world, eating weird stuff. I was like, maybe people just don't think it's cool to not like stuff.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  It's they're embarrassed.

• 1:08:50Jefferson Fisher?

  My son's really cool.

• 1:08:54Jefferson Fisher?

  He's just straight butter noodles, man. I could barely get him to eat anything.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  By the way, I, that's, that's a real experience for most of us right now.

• 1:09:00Jefferson Fisher?

  For sure, but you, but that's, that's what you go, maybe that they don't feel comfortable.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Well, so the next table, I whenever I said, is there anything at all you don't like? And they're like, no. And I was like, can I tell you guys something? I really don't like oysters and I really don't like sea urchin. I was like, you didn't ask, I just felt the need to share.

• 1:09:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  And they're like, you know what? I actually don't like beets and I don't like whatever they sent.

• 1:09:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  And all I needed to do was tell them something I didn't like.

• 1:09:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  And then they were like, oh, wait, this is a safe space to talk about not liking stuff. I'm not saying that not liking oysters is a display of profound vulnerability.

• 1:09:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Right, right.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  But just opening up about something.

• 1:09:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  Gave them permission to do the same in return and.

• 1:09:42Jefferson Fisher?

  It's vulnerability.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  It's vulnerability. And that's you gave, when you're saying, I like this part because of this, that guy's like, oh, we can actually connect on more of a human level.

• 1:09:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. All of a sudden it's, that's, it has nothing to do about degree or experience. And it ends up that, I mean, they, that's just one element of many that they care about. But see, a lot of people could have experience. I mean, it's, it's, it's all the different stuff that they could, you can have of what's your, your personality. And I think, I think that's awesome. I mean, the.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  And then, by the way, that person shares something with you about their dad. And then you go and you win the case.

• 1:10:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  A week later, they get a little note from you acknowledging that about their dad. And maybe he said his dad was a big Dallas Cowboys fan. And so you put on a little Dallas Cowboys baseball hat and you say, what a pleasure it was to work with you.

• 1:10:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. Just those little bitty like touch points.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  And they're gonna remember that Dallas Cowboys hat more than they're gonna remember the smart way that you argued their case in the courtroom.

• 1:10:43Jefferson Fisher?

  This Unreasonable Hospitality Field Guide, I'm so jealous of it. I'm, I'm, I'm gonna keep telling you that. One, it is.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  Thank you, by the way.

• 1:10:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, absolutely. Let me tell you why I love this thing. I like your book, Unreasonable Hospitality. It's great. The, it really is. It's also, having written a self-help nonfiction book, and this is, we're kind of in the same category.

• 1:11:13Jefferson Fisher?

  What makes this so different is one, it's kind of like, as soon as you get it, it feels like it's a, I was in Cub Scouts.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Jefferson Fisher?

  And so it's very much a field guide.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Like this, and it's like, I, it kind of looks like I should be learning how to like, build a fire or like some knot, like certain types of, you know, overhand knots. But I can see, I wish I had had this when I had the restaurant, cause one, it's super colorful. So you did a really good job of making it to where you want to read through it. The illustrations are really cool. Things change. It doesn't look like it's just ho-hum. And so the design of it is really cool. And that's probably just like my brand, like self.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  I, I wanted so badly for a workbook about hospitality to itself, be hospitable and not feel like work. And so the designer is this guy named Don Clark, who has literally worked with Pixar and NASA and Lego. And I convinced him to do this with me.

• 1:12:08Jefferson Fisher?

  I, if, if I, I'm telling you, if there's anybody that I could just.

• 1:12:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Freaky Friday, you know what I'm saying? They're just trading your life, man. That's what I would probably do. Like this one that I really, really like.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:12:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, that I had bookmarked. So you have, why is Joe struggling? And this is like a decision tree.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Jefferson Fisher?

  And so I thought, oh my gosh, how many Joes do we know of like somebody on my team is struggling?

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:35Jefferson Fisher?

  With something, and then you have this tree of Joe's struggling because he doesn't care and he's not trying. Like, that's rarely the case.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:42Jefferson Fisher?

  But it's so easy to think they just don't care.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Jefferson Fisher?

  In a relationship, it's easy to first thing to say is, well, you just don't care.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  You just don't care.

• 1:12:49Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's never the, that's never the, the truth. Well, rarely, if ever. Joe is trying, but still not succeeding. You have all these like different ways of, if it is true that he's struggling because he doesn't care, fire Joe as fast as you possibly can.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Right?

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Get him out.

• 1:13:02Jefferson Fisher?

  That's really, yeah.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  If that's actually the reason, just fire him.

• 1:13:06Jefferson Fisher?

  But is Joe is trying, but not succeeding?

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Then it's all these like, is it training? Is it too much, too fast? Is something else going on? It's like listening with your eyes kind of thing. And I, when I first looked at this, I was like, dude, this is so cool. Like, do you know if they're in the right role? It talks it all about on specifically what you had, uh, mentioned a minute ago of your rules for criticism. You know, how do you have these teams together? A lot of the things that you and I covered. And so when I, um, I look at this, one, I'm super jealous of it. Number two is you're going to help so many people with this thing.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:13:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Man, you really, really are. And it, and it's not at all for just restaurants.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:13:53Jefferson Fisher?

  And, and here I am sitting with somebody who was part of the number one restaurant in the entire world. I've never been, one day I'm going to go. I've never been.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  And one day, I mean, it's different now, but I, you gotta go just to this experience a little bit.

• 1:14:07Jefferson Fisher?

  I mean, I love, I am a foodie. I just have kids. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, there's only so many places like we can go when we have kids. Cause it's usually, okay, where's a, let me go Italian place. Cause I know they have noodles and, and.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  Dude, I took my kid, I took my, my kids to In-N-Out Burger here. And I was like, all right, this is great. I love In-N-Out Burger. My kids are going to love In-N-Out Burger. Like this can be the connective tissue in our culinary relationship.

• 1:14:34Jefferson Fisher?

  In-N-Out Burger.

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  And we get there and my three year old's like. Can we go to McDonald's?

• 1:14:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, my gosh. Yes.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  I was like, I was like, guys, why?

• 1:14:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Why are you doing this?

• 1:14:45Jefferson Fisher?

  So my, uh, back in our small town hometown, uh, right in front of the Walmart is a Chili's. And so, you know, how you grew up thinking certain places, mine was Olive Garden. I thought it was like the fanciest of the fanciest. And so my, we were in the car in the Uber and, um, we're trying to find a place and my son was like, I got an idea. Y'all wanna go Chili's? I'm like, he was like, that's like the top of the line. And we're like, well, if we see one. And so now if my daughter just raises, she sees a Chili's, she's like, so that's just kind of become like also the McDonald's.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  But that's awesome.

• 1:15:26Jefferson Fisher?

  It really is. We, we, we love it. We love it. I, I want to, this is why I also am really cool about these. And it's really cool when you come across somebody's work and it makes you go like, ah, I really wanna just like redo everything I've ever done. You know, like you, you just kind of get that inspiration and things. So it's like this, this is just, I'm reading in the middle of something. It just goes, go back to your mission statement. What three strategies could you focus on right now? And then it's just like, has all the spaces for it. And then it goes right into what might a strategic planning meeting look like for you? And just like you, it's banger after banger of who's gonna be in charge of it, how are you gonna do there, where you gather? Like the, the way that you have, you talk about pray circles, what, how do you celebrate top performers?

• 1:16:13Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm gonna use this myself. It's just super, super cool. Um, and I can, this is the kind of stuff that like I nerd out about secretly. I've just liked, this is so cool.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  So I think, I think we're the same. When I, I recorded my audio book for the first book.

• 1:16:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  And then you remember doing this, right? You record it all and then you go away.

• 1:16:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  And like a month later, you have to go back to do pickups.

• 1:16:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  And the credits and that's it. In the month between recording it and doing pickups and the credits, I listened to Greenlights, McConaughey's book.

• 1:16:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Nice.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  On audio.

• 1:16:46Jefferson Fisher?

  I haven't listened on audio.

• 1:16:48Speaker 02

  Dude, it's just a masterful audio book performance. And I listened to that. I was like, gosh.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  I wish I'd listened to this before.

• 1:16:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Before I did it.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Audiobook. And so I went and did the pickups. And he just does so many creative things and how he delivers the material. I was like, I gotta do something. And meanwhile, I'd already started the practice of collecting observations when I was writing the book and I didn't want it to stop. And so on my phone, there's a bunch of new things that I'd observations, ideas, insights, and the book was done. So we get to the end of doing all the pickups and the credits. And I said to the producer, I was like, hey, keep rolling. I want to add something after the credits. And he's like, well, you're not allowed to do that. And I was like, uh, just keep rolling. And so I said, hey, to whoever makes the decision about whether or not there's allowed to be bonus material after the credits.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  This is important to me. And if you've read the book, you know what that means. My cell phone number is this. Call me if you want to have a conversation about it. And I just did this whole Easter egg.

• 1:17:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  Basically, I was like, hey, are you still there?

• 1:17:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:17:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  And did this whole like Easter egg at the end of the audiobook. And it was just inspired by listening to someone else's work.

• 1:17:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  Being jealous, wishing I could do it all over again, but saying, well, I can't. But I can at least do this.

• 1:18:04Jefferson Fisher?

  But that that comes to from like, what's the takeaway is expose yourself to creativity. Like expose yourself to, there's some people who go, you know, there's the downside of reading, reading too many self-help and whatever. And I agree, you can have too much if you're not acting on it. But you have to expose yourself to different mediums, different like, there's a reason why the color world has a spectrum. Like that you have to have spectrum.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:18:32Jefferson Fisher?

  And diversity in your life. Like there would, even in investments, like you don't want to just go with one, like it's, you always have to. Exactly. And so it's the same thing of how do you, you, you hear that from Matthew McConaughey.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Jefferson Fisher?

  And you go, you know what? I'm going to add a little bit of spectrum.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Jefferson Fisher?

  And so, and that turns into something else.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:18:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, because you've written this book, here you are doing stuff with the bear. You're like designing a stadium. You're doing like.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  We're doing lots of fun stuff.

• 1:19:01Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm telling you, and your wife's amazing. Like, so you're getting to.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  But I mean, like, I, I think, I mean, you too, like, we, the two of us were in a room yesterday with a bunch of really successful authors, learning from other people. And gosh, I, I'm pretty intent on never getting to a place where I don't pinch myself and I find myself in these rooms because I'm just filled with gratitude for the experiences that I get to have and for the people I get to meet. And it's pretty amazing.

• 1:19:32Jefferson Fisher?

  The fact of just how we even kind of came into play is, is crazy, but that's, that has to do a lot with opening yourself to a lot of different

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Jefferson Fisher?

  colors in the, in the spectrum. So, man, thank you so much for sitting.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  Dude, thanks for having me.

• 1:19:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Talking with me. This thing, uh, the field guide and reasonable hospitality field guide. You gotta get it. When does it come out?

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  It's April 28th.

• 1:19:57Jefferson Fisher?

  It's gonna be a killer, man. Uh, I, I, as soon as I got it, I was like, doggone it. This is so good. Uh, for anybody wanting to add strategic planning to their teams and how to do it differently. It's just a step-by-step roadmap to elevating the magic in what you do with your business. Can't recommend it enough. Thanks, man, for sitting with me.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  Thanks, brother.

• 1:20:16Jefferson Fisher?

  All right, brother.

• 1:20:18Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.