You Can Be Successful and Still Feel Like You Don't Matter | Mick Hunt & John R. Miles – EP 830

Mick Hunt interviews John R. Miles about his new book, "The Mattering Effect," and the hidden cost of being successful, needed, and productive while still feeling unseen, disconnected, or unsure that you matter.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01John R. Miles?

  Hey friends, what if your biggest problem isn't that you're not doing enough, but that you've spent too long proving that you are enough? You can be successful, needed, and surrounded by people and still feel completely unseen. That's the problem I explore in my new book, The Mattering Effect. I show you how we become hyper-visible for what we produce, while quietly becoming invisible to ourselves, and introduce the matter framework to help you reclaim meaning, autonomy, trust, time, energy, and reciprocity. Stop auditioning for your worth, start living from it. The Mattering Effect is available for preorder now at matteringeffect.com. Coming up next on Passion Struck, what if the beliefs that made you successful

• 0:43John R. Miles?

  are the very beliefs that are quietly making you miserable? The belief that you always need to do more, that being needed makes you valuable, that your next milestone will finally make you feel secure. Those beliefs can build an extraordinary career, but they can also build a life where you are constantly performing and never actually arriving. That is the core of the conversation Mick Hunt and I had about The Mattering Effect. Take a listen.

• 1:21John R. Miles?

  Welcome back to episode 830 of Passion Struck. On Tuesday, The Mattering Effect: Creating a Life of Meaning and Worth officially launched into the world. After years of researching, writing, and living with this message, it's an incredible feeling to finally see it in your hands. I wrote this book for anyone who's ever wondered, do I matter beyond what I produce, achieve, or provide for other people? The high achievers trapped on the treadmill of constantly proving their worth, the leaders, executive caregivers, teachers, first responders, and parents who spend their entire lives pouring into everyone else, wondering why, despite being indispensable,

• 2:06John R. Miles?

  they quietly feel like they're disappearing from their own lives? Because you can be highly visible on the outside and still feel completely invisible on the inside. Mattering is more than being liked, popular, or useful. It is the fundamental human need to know that your life has worth and that who you are and what you contribute makes a real difference. In this book, I explore why we lose that sense of mattering and how we find our way back from the inside out. But launching a book is one thing. Sitting down with someone who pushes you to examine the foundational purpose behind it is another. That is exactly what happened when I joined my friend,

• 2:50John R. Miles?

  USA Today bestselling author Mick Hunt, on his podcast, Mick Unplugged, a leadership and personal growth podcast dedicated to exploring the deeper purpose, the because, behind high performers and culture shapers. Mick's show is one of the few on repeat in my own morning routine, and this episode went far beyond standard conversation. We dug into why loneliness, burnout, and disengagement are just downstream symptoms of a single unanswered question. Do I matter? We went into my concept of the slow fade, how so many people remain completely indispensable to everyone else while quietly fading out in their own lives.

• 3:34John R. Miles?

  We discussed why Thoreau's warning about quiet desperation has evolved in an extractive world dominated by algorithms, performance scoreboards, and 24/7 connectivity. And we did a deep dive into the mattering needs pyramid, the practical progression from mattering to yourself to relational reflection, emotional resonance, and genuine impact. Sometimes the thing we need to change isn't our performance, it's the belief underneath the performance. Here's my conversation with Mick Hunt. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life that matters. Now, let that journey begin.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today, I have someone that I've actually looked up to from afar from a long time. He's a military navy veteran. He is a guy who talks about culture and leadership. He's someone who we're going to talk about why you matter and why you matter more than you even know. Please join me in welcoming the brilliant, the amazing, the connected Mr. John R. Mills. John, how you doing today, brother?

• 4:49John R. Miles?

  Mick, I am just ecstatic to be on your podcast because I am a huge, huge, huge fan of Mick Unplugged.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  So I'm such an even bigger fan of you. And I told you offline that I wanted to have this moment because I want to give you your flowers, dude. Like, the respect that I have for our military and our veterans, what you have done and continue to do in the podcast space, what you've done career-wise, what Passion Struck and that podcast is about,

• 5:26Speaker 01

  just means so much to me, dude. I know you talked about like listening to my show, but honestly, I don't listen to a ton of podcasts. Yours is one of the few that, not only do I listen to, it's on repeat. It's one of the things that, you know, on my Saturday mornings, when I'm sitting out reflecting on the week that's come or that's passed and things that I want to work on. You're the first podcast that I listen to every Saturday morning, dude. And I truly mean that. You are the show that I listen to. And I've needed that, so I wanted to thank you personally for that.

• 6:03John R. Miles?

  Wow, man, that means a lot. That means a lot, brother. Thank you so much.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  You got it. There's so much I want to talk to you about, John. Like, there's so many things that we have in common outside of just podcasting, right? Like, you talk a lot about culture, you talk a lot about leadership, emotional intelligence, and those are all the things that are in my wheelhouse as well. And I'm so honored to have you on because I wanted to ask you, you know, I always ask my guests, what's their because, what's their purpose? Why do they continue to do the things that you do? And this amazing book that you have coming out has helped me connect with my because even more. So I'd love for you to tell us, like, what's your because? Why do you do the things that you do so well?

• 6:52John R. Miles?

  Mick, because I was given a calling. Years ago, it had to be around 2005, 2006.

• 7:04John R. Miles?

  I was sitting in this discipleship class that I was taking at my church. The course is called Discipleship One. And man, it's like signing up for a master's degree. It lasted 34 weeks. We met with our minister twice a week for two to three hours in the evening. And when I wasn't doing that, we had all these reading assignments from beginning to the end of the Bible. And during that time,

• 7:38John R. Miles?

  out of nowhere, I was given this assignment, man, that completely altered the entire trajectory of my life. I felt called to serve the lonely, the broken, the beaten, the battered, the disengaged, and the burned out. And Mick, I have to tell you, I had no idea what hit me because all I saw was a bunch of separate epidemics. Loneliness was one crisis. Burnout was another, that I was feeling myself at that time. Disengagement in all these companies was another. Rising despair, suicide rates, declining mental health were another.

• 8:24John R. Miles?

  And for so many years, as I pounded my head against the wall, I thought about them individually. But the deeper I went into the human condition and into my podcast, the more a different question began to haunt me. What if we're endlessly treating downstream symptoms while we're ignoring an upstream wound sitting underneath many or all of them? And so that became the burning question. When you peel back the layers, whether it's someone burning out at work,

• 9:05John R. Miles?

  an employee checking out, or someone quietly spiraling into isolation, you often encounter the same unspoken human question. Do I matter? And the more I began to realize that, I realized that billions of people are getting very little evidence that they do. And what it caused me to do, Mick, is I had to look beyond psychology and examine where neuroscience, contemplative wisdom, and system design intersect. Because the issue isn't just what's happening inside us. Man, it's happening around us, in our workplaces, our institutions,

• 9:51John R. Miles?

  the algorithms we're using, our schools, consumer culture, even in our families. We've built systems all around us that are extraordinarily good at measuring what we produce, perform, and deliver,

• 10:08John R. Miles?

  but are far less capable of reflecting who we are. And I call that because systemic un-mattering.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Bro, I have chills right now, like, like knowing your story, knowing the things that you do. But I've never heard it in that context. I've never heard it said that way. And hearing that passion that you have, when you talk about that, talking to me, talking to our audience, like, it really gives me chills. And I want to go a little bit deeper into

• 10:50Speaker 01

  that and those moments for you because for those that are watching, for those that are listening, for those that don't know John, and you're weird if you don't know John, go Google John or Miles, but Navy veteran, corporate executive, on the outside, John, you, you looked like you were the epitome of what everyone should strive to be, right? Outside, that was you. But on the inside, you were, you've talked about that battle internally. What was that really like for you to discover that within yourself?

• 11:29John R. Miles?

  Mick, I'm going to give you a little con- context and that for the audience. So,

• 11:36John R. Miles?

  man, we're recording this on nine eleven and what a meaningful day for, for so many of us in America, but also around the world. And

• 11:50John R. Miles?

  one thing that people don't know about nine eleven is three thousand people unfortunately lost their life that day. Seven thousand veterans lost their life fighting the war on terror. And it impacted countless thousands beyond that. But the statistic that that doesn't get talked out, talked about enough is the over hundred and fifty thousand veterans who've taken their life

• 12:20John R. Miles?

  beyond those who lost it. And I went on this retreat

• 12:28John R. Miles?

  three, three years ago, and there were a group of about a hundred and fifty special operators there from every different community. And we did the four by four by forty eight Goggins challenge.

• 12:42John R. Miles?

  And as I was talking to all these veterans, and it goes well beyond this to first responders, medical providers, so many people, like ninety nine percent of the symptoms that we were all experiencing were exactly the same. And the symptoms we were experiencing is something that I call the slow fade.

• 13:06John R. Miles?

  And a person will understand this as I talk about it because this is what happened to me.

• 13:15John R. Miles?

  Man, you're doing it all. You're functioning. You're giving. You're showing up.

• 13:24John R. Miles?

  But what ends up happening is like gradually your own voice, your very identity, your needs, your sense of significance. Man, it begins to recede. And the only way I can like talk about this is it's like this pair of glasses here. And it's like,

• 13:45John R. Miles?

  one day, a long time ago, they were completely clear. But every day it's like more and more smudges are beginning to appear on these glasses. Yet, nothing you use wipes them away. And it's like,

• 14:03John R. Miles?

  your life just starts getting dimmer and dimmer and dimmer, and you feel less and less alive.

• 14:11John R. Miles?

  And the more I started to see it in myself, I began to see it everywhere. You see it in the poor teacher who's working her heart out where you live in Atlanta in the inner city, and she's pouring everything into her students. It's the first responder who's running toward everyone else's crisis. It's the CEOs who are listening to this who are carrying the weight of the company and the board. It's the caregivers who are tending to loved ones, the nurses tending to sick patients, and the overachiever who's built an identity around constantly proving their worth like I was.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:57John R. Miles?

  And what I found is they're needed, they're giving, they're contributing, but Mick, who's seeing them? That's where the slow fade becomes so dangerous because you remain highly visible to the world while you're becoming increasingly invisible to yourself. And that, my friend, is exactly what was happening to me.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Dude, the chills, the chills get even stronger, man, like, this is so deep, like, and, and I want to, because I know a lot of our viewers, a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs and they're leaders and they hear me, when you hear me speak, you hear me talk a lot about emotional intelligence. And I want to, I want to go to a segment that I call the unplugged truth. And I'm going to elaborate on some, or I want you to elaborate on something that I'm about to say because I know that you talk about this and I know that there's a framework around this in the mattering effect, which by the way, will be a New York Times bestseller, by the way, and we'll, we'll talk about that book in a moment. But here's an unplugged truth.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  We've talked a lot in the last two to three years about making sure in the workplace, people are seen.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I think that's step one. Because hearing you and your story and understanding some of your frameworks, people don't just need to be seen, they also need to be valued. Right? And I know that that is something that you talk about. So I would love for you to elaborate because for the people that are watching that are leaders, that are founders of companies, I'm going to say it's no longer good enough to just make your people feel seen. That, that's actually pretty easy now, right?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  But how do you make them feel valued? And I think from a culture standpoint, it's the most important thing, but I'd love for you to elaborate, brother.

• 17:02John R. Miles?

  So I want to introduce Henry David Thoreau. And man, I, I had this interview

• 17:10John R. Miles?

  last year, and I've always said Henry David Thoreau, and I was interviewing the leading expert in the world on his name. And he goes, you're mispronouncing his name. It's Thoreau. So for anyone who's out there who, like me, has said it the wrong way, it's actually Henry David Thoreau.

• 17:27John R. Miles?

  The man practically two centuries ago wrote the line, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."

• 17:37John R. Miles?

  And I think he was right. But Thoreau was looking at a world entering the industrial revolution. A world where work at that time had become increasingly organized around production, efficiency, specialization, and most importantly, the machine.

• 17:59John R. Miles?

  And over the next century and a half, that logic has become so deeply embedded into every institution that we surround ourselves with, but especially our work environment. Because Mick, I'm not sure what you've experienced, but man, what I experienced is that we increasingly have learned to measure people by what they produce, what they contribute. And so many people look at shareholder value and what economic value our employees can create. But I think something

• 18:37John R. Miles?

  is happening now that is drastically different. Like, not only are we living in a more global world,

• 18:47John R. Miles?

  but with the advent of AI, algorithms, digital networks, and constant information,

• 18:54John R. Miles?

  we're now having to respond not only to caring about the person down the street, we're having to care about billions of people around the world. And so our communities, our workplaces, our neighborhoods, even our own identities have become increasingly porous. So I don't think we're simply experiencing quiet desperation anymore. I think we're experiencing what I call quiet disorientation. Quiet desperation says, I know something is wrong, but I feel trapped inside these walls. Well, the issue is, we don't have these walls anymore. And that's the difference between quiet desperation and quiet disorientation.

• 19:40John R. Miles?

  We're connected to almost everything, but increasingly uncertain about where we belong in that connection. And so when you think about this whole

• 19:55John R. Miles?

  ecosystem that you're talking about, about the need to feel valued, and then to receive that value back, it really goes back to this core thing that I have in the book, which is called the mattering needs pyramid. And I started to look at, at like, what needs to happen inside ourselves for mattering to take place? And it starts, starts with a foundational internal belief that I matter to myself. The second is you have to have a relational reflection. I am seen. My existence registers with someone else. And that's more than just being surrounded by people. So in the workplace,

• 20:37John R. Miles?

  you have to not only have the workplace tell you that you're seen, but you have to believe it. But it's more than that. You have to be known. Someone understands who I am beneath the role. And I think that is something that even as a leader, when I look back upon my time leading people, I didn't do effectively. So often, we look at the people we work with and we see them in the role they're in. We don't see the roles that they've done before that. We don't see the roles that they're doing beyond work. And then lastly, you have to feel that you make a difference, that my presence changes out something outside of me.

• 21:23John R. Miles?

  If this conversation is hitting home for you, The Mattering Effect is available right now wherever books are sold. If you've ever wondered why hitting every benchmark of success still leaves you feeling hollow, or why being indispensable to everyone else never feels like enough, I wrote this book for you. It's a roadmap to help you escape the mattering market, dismantle conditional worth, and build an internal anchor of significance. Grab your copy at your local bookstore, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, bookshop.org, or wherever books are sold. And make sure to listen to the end of this episode for a special giveaway Mick is hosting for our listeners. Now, a quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

• 22:15John R. Miles?

  You're listening to Passion Struck right here on the Passion Struck Network. Now, back to my conversation with Mick Hunt.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  So, John, you're talking about the Mattering Effect, the mattering needs in the pyramid. Can you break down what that actual pyramid is from top to bottom?

• 22:34John R. Miles?

  So Mick, you were talking to me about this very...

• 22:43John R. Miles?

  Mick, you were talking to me about that mattering has two components. The feeling that you're seen, but that you need to be giving as well. So, it's adding value and receiving value. And so, as I started to think about this in a broader terms, I was trying to figure out, like, what does that really mean beyond just those two conditions? And so, this is where the Mattering Needs Pyramid came about. So, it has four different layers to it, and I'll try to relate this both to the individual and to the work environment. So, the foundational element is,

• 23:26John R. Miles?

  before you can matter to anyone else, before you can feel seen, you have to matter to yourself.

• 23:34John R. Miles?

  Do I possess enough internal sense of worth that doesn't rise and fall with approval, achievement, productivity, or other people's opinions?

• 23:46John R. Miles?

  And in a work environment, are you giving the conditions that allow that? That allow people to matter to themselves? And it goes, it obviously goes beyond the work environment. But then, this leads to the second foundational level, which I call relational reflection. Am I seen? Does my existence register with someone else? And it's important for people to realize that this is more than just being surrounded by people. This is, you know, am I really seen? And in work environments, this is something that I have to tell you, sometimes as a leader, I didn't do as good a job as I should have

• 24:30John R. Miles?

  because oftentimes, when we look at someone, we see them in the role that they're playing, but we don't see them in the roles that led up to that role. We also don't see them in their life outside of work, which we really need to spend a lot more time doing. And then, that leads to the third layer, which is emotional resonance. And this really gets to, you can be seen, but are you known? And this gets into what I was just saying. Does someone understand who I really am beneath that role? And that happens in our family situations, in the role that we're playing.

• 25:12John R. Miles?

  It happens in our work environments, it happens in our church environments. There's really a difference between someone knowing your name and someone knowing your heart. And I'm sure that resonates with you. And then, lastly, is impact. Do I feel I can make a difference? Does my presence change something out of me? Does my role at work influence the company culture? Does it influence the company's customers? Does it influence the company's strategy? Because an employee, and any of us, want to know, does my life leave a mark?

• 25:52John R. Miles?

  And those four layers together create a more resilient sense of mattering.

• 26:00John R. Miles?

  It's like a living system.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Amen to that. And I'm smiling because, again, it's like we're brothers from another mother because one of the things that I was challenged by from my mentor and my best friend, Robert Irvine, who I know is listening to this episode, is Mick, nothing really matters if you don't make impact, right? And he was talking both in my professional and personal life. It's like, your people want to make impact, right? And so, ironically, or funny enough, John, I was actually going to talk to you about being seen and valued.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  And then, most importantly, especially when we talk about this new age employee, and I don't mean it by age literally, I just mean by where we are in society.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  In a good way, people actually want to make impact, right? The people that you lead want to make impact. So, I would definitely say being seen, being valued, and having the ability to make impact, to me, is a recipe of amazing culture. So, I'd love to get your spot on that, too.

• 27:17John R. Miles?

  Yeah, well, I think it's important for people to understand the difference between being needed and mattering. Being needed basically says, what you do is valuable to me. Mattering is a little bit different. It really says, you're valuable to me, and your presence makes a difference. And I think that that second part is huge. And that's why, like, my mission today, Mick, is I want to make the invisible visible and remind the people who spend their lives making other people matter that they matter too.

• 28:02John R. Miles?

  Because I think that second part is missing in so many people's lives.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Totally agree, totally agree. So, I'm going to move to the hot takes on my show, and I'm going to give the hottest take of 2026. The Mattering Effect by John R. Miles will be a New York Times Bestseller because I know the man behind the book, and I respect the man behind the book. So, John, I'd love for you, I'm going to open the floor on The Mattering Effect. What are people going to get out of this book? What are some of the takeaways that is going to be unveiled to the person that reads it?

• 28:48John R. Miles?

  Well, Mick, first of all, I want to say that, like, for me, I never go into writing any of these books that I write to get on the bestseller list. And I think when you do, you're just setting yourself up for great disappointment. Like, the biggest measure for me is when I hear from a leader or someone who's read the book, and they tell me that the impact that it's had on them, that was the best part of writing Passion Struck. And the other thing that is huge for me is the Next Big Idea Club.

• 29:29John R. Miles?

  And I found out last night that the book was picked up to be a must-read in the October segment of the Next Big Idea Club. So, that was a huge validation because if people don't know about that, that book club is led by Malcolm Gladwell, Adam Grant, Susan Cain, and Dan Pink. And I can't think of four greater writers out there. So, for people who are reading this, one of the big ideas that you will get is something that I call the Great Erasure. And the Great Erasure is what I think is happening

• 30:10John R. Miles?

  and what is causing so many people to feel lonely, burned out, disengaged, et cetera. And that is the gradual loss of individuality as people become increasingly interchangeable parts inside the systems that organize their lives. This is the systemic unmattering that I'm talking about. And one of the most important things for people to understand is that healthy environments that we interact with require three ingredients. And as I was researching this book, I came across this theory I didn't even know existed. A lot of people have heard of self-determination theory,

• 30:55John R. Miles?

  which really gets into intrinsic motivation. But I found this thing called Firo theory, and it has three important components: inclusion, control, and openness. Inclusion really answers the question, do I belong here? Control answers the question, do I have a say in what happens in the environments I walk into? And openness might be the most important element. Can I be the real me in that environment? And when those three signals weaken, and that's what my book really gets into, is following the signal, people don't rebel, they shrink.

• 31:40John R. Miles?

  And the place that that is happening most, unfortunately, is in our homes. Because the thing that I realized, the more research I did on this, is that the mattering instinct starts the moment that we are born. It's the first thing we're searching for when we come out of our mother's wombs. And

• 32:02John R. Miles?

  It's most loss in our home environments. And the second key concept that I think people really need to understand is something that I call the mattering market. Because the more you think about it, we are living in a mattering market. Like, everything that we interact with, whether it's the consumers, the consumer websites, the major brands, the schools that we send our kids to, the schools that we go to, the work environment, the communities, they're all trying to extract something from us. And the more they're extracting, the more our individuality is taken away from us.

• 32:47John R. Miles?

  So, the other very important thing that comes out of this book, which I spend seventy-five percent of the book talking about, is how do you build all this back? If I haven't made a case for this, and why people are feeling this, then I, I, I'm, I've done a poor job. But I think it's important for people to understand the core framework in the book. As I interviewed over four hundred people on the podcast for this book, and I'm talking Nobel Prize winners, professional athletes, ministers, priests, contemplative practitioners, psychologists, neuroscientists, I mean, you and I interview like the same groups of people.

• 33:29John R. Miles?

  I found six recurring conditions that either make us matter,

• 33:37John R. Miles?

  or lead to systemic unmattering. And, man, it just so happened that they spelled out the word "matter." So, the first one is meaning. Am I connected to something that makes my life feel significant? The second one, A, is autonomy. Do I have authorship over my own life? And in a work environment, do I have authorship over the ability to make a difference in the work environment that I'm existing in? T is trust. This really gets down to psychological safety. Do I feel safe enough to be fully myself in the environments that I enter into?

• 34:21John R. Miles?

  And I, I was interviewing Dr. John DiMartini, I'm not sure if you've had him on your, your show or not, Mick. But we, we spent a whole hour talking about this. So many of us never feel safe enough to be fully ourselves, and that's why so many people today are wearing masks. I did for like two, two decades of my career, instead of being my full self. The third T, or the second T is time. So, do I have enough shared presence to actually experience my life and my relationship? And this is so important, because we're so busy in our lives that we're not actually experiencing it.

• 35:05John R. Miles?

  The E is for energy, and it's specifically return on energy. Is my life replenishing me, or is it simply extracting from me? And then, the last one is a word that some people may not use very often, but is extremely important, reciprocity. And when I say reciprocity, think about being on a seesaw.

• 35:31John R. Miles?

  Is care, contribution, and significance moving in both, in both directions, or only one? Because if it's only moving in one, you're either on the bottom or at the top of that seesaw. And so then, the, the last thing is, you then have to apply that matter framework to the mattering needs pyramid, and when you do that, it becomes the mattering compass. And so, you have to then take that matter framework and apply it through those four layers, which is personal mattering, relational mattering, emotional mattering, and impact mattering.

• 36:12John R. Miles?

  And once you're able to build that back in yourself, that's when the mattering effect, that's when you achieve the mattering dividend, and that's when the mattering effect takes place. And that impact starts happening at home, in your relationships, in your work environments, in your community, man, and then eventually throughout society.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Wow. You just gave me,

• 36:44Speaker 01

  like, an amazing lesson. Man, like, because there are a couple of things in the acronym. You talk about trust. So important. Psychological safety, you know, I just did an entire keynote on that for Fortune One Hundred company. And how you just eloquently put all of that together, dude, like, it's, it's what makes you who you are, it's why you are who you are, and it's why, I'm gonna say this, it's why you matter, man, like, that's why John R. Miles matters. Because that's you, that's all you. And it, it brings me to a question that I have, and in this segment, I quickly call

• 37:26Speaker 01

  it "The Room," and it's one of those things where it's like, was there, was there ever a moment where there was a meeting, a dinner?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  A conversation you had with someone that sparked this in you? Like, I know internally, right, you decided to look at the man in the mirror, but was there a conversation, was there a room, was there a meeting that propelled you to an even higher level?

• 37:55John R. Miles?

  Mick, there, there, there wasn't really a conversation, there was a gun.

• 38:05John R. Miles?

  So, about nine years ago, I was in the middle of this just terrible divorce, and,

• 38:19John R. Miles?

  man, things, things were, were as low as I thought low could possibly get. And this, this, my, my son at this point had gone off to college, and my daughter is in middle school, and I had just dropped her off at school, and

• 38:35John R. Miles?

  at this point in time, I, I would, I had this schedule, that after I would drop her off, I would, I would go by the gym, and it just so happened this day, the gym had some kind of electrical fire. So, fire engines were there when I showed up, so instead of being able to go and work out, I had to drive home. And I should have known better from my time at the military, that I was doing the same pattern too much. And unfortunately, at this point in time, a couple of people were watching my pattern, and had picked that exact moment to rob me.

• 39:12John R. Miles?

  So, I walk into my home at the exact time a burglar is going on, and I, I saw the work shoes when I went into my house, but at the time, because I had, I had given my, my spouse about ninety percent of, of everything that I had made to close out the divorce, so I, I didn't have enough money, Mick, at this point in time, to even buy a house, so I was, I was renting. And it turns out that the, the manager of the rental company was the person had been canvassing my house, and he was the person robbing me.

• 39:55John R. Miles?

  So, I go up the stairs, thinking he's, he or whoever this person is, who I, who I just figured was from the rental company, had their headphones in and couldn't hear me, and as I'm charging up the stairs, dude, I can, I can hear

• 40:14John R. Miles?

  the accelerated breathing, and I'm like, I had enough momentum that I couldn't stop myself, and I turned the corner, and there he is at the top of the stairs, pointing my own handgun back at me. And, man, it's like your life flashes before you, and unfortunately, I had the military training, so I was able in that moment, I had a quick split second to decide, am I gonna rush up the stairs and try to take him down? And he was a much bigger guy than me, plus he was commanding the high ground, or is I gonna evade him? And I decided I was gonna evade him, live to fight another day.

• 40:57John R. Miles?

  So, I, I successfully get out of the situation, and then, dude, three days later, the one person in my life, my best friend, the guy who I could call two o'clock in the morning, five AM in the morning, and he would come there in a, in a heartbeat, commit suicide. And at this point in time, you know, I had been given this because that I talked to you about, and I had been resisting it with every strength that I had in my bones, because it was so foreign to anything I had done before it, and this was my wake-up call, like,

• 41:42John R. Miles?

  John, what are you waiting for? And I have to say, like, after that point in time, it like didn't come overnight, it took me two years of figuring it out, and that's what led to me writing Passion Struck, was, like, Passion Struck, if people haven't read it, are twelve principles that I used to build back my life by doing me-search on myself. But that was the start of it, was those two events.

• 42:10John R. Miles?

  And it really made me realize, there's this professor at Cornell, Tom Gilovich, whose work on people in the third trimester of their life has found that seventy-six percent of people he has examined have the same regret, and that is the regret for not allowing themselves to make the choice to become their ideal self, man. And that was the moment I made the choice that I was gonna live my life differently, and I was gonna solve that question and start helping people live their life differently. So, if there's anything that I hope to do with the rest of the days that I have on

• 42:52John R. Miles?

  earth, it's to help people not become the seventy-six percent who go on their deathbed looking back and wondering, what the heck did I do with my life?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Bro, you've done nothing but give me chills this entire conversation, man. Like, I knew the story of the burglary. I did not know the story of your best friend. And to know that that happened within seventy-two hours of each other, man. Like, the, the self-resiliency that you have, the self-awareness that you have, and you know this, right? Like, we both talk about emotional intelligence. Ninety percent of the people would tell you that they're very self-aware, but only ten percent really are, right? And you, again, take that a step further by talking about the self-audit or the self-research,

• 43:49Speaker 01

  which is not something I'm gonna do. Like, you've given me something to start this weekend, because I'm sitting here listening to you say all this, and I'm like, doggone it, he's right. Like, and while, yeah, I do think that my life has been very purposeful. I do feel like I have made and will continue to make impact. I still need to do that self-research on me, because it could be something I'm leaving on the table. So, bro, like, you, you gave me something to do, and I love that.

• 44:23John R. Miles?

  Well, Mick, one of the things that I, I discovered while writing this book is that we've all heard that it's the tiny choices that matter. But what I discovered is that there's actually a mattering loop. And each, since you're talking about self, each self-honoring choice that you make strengthens the belief that your choices matter. And the more your choices matter, the more you believe in yourself, the more you're willing

• 45:02John R. Miles?

  to take off the mask, the willing, the more you become willing to live by your values and your aspirations and your ambitions. And, man, to, to, to live what Marshall Goldsmith calls the earned life. It, it isn't that what it's all about. And I, I have to tell you, I, I started this conversation talking about the Bible. Man, my Bible was my prized possession. I had decades of notes in, in my, my Bible. It was like, every time I heard a sermon that, that resonated with me, I would take notes from the pastor talking, and I would underline it.

• 45:44John R. Miles?

  And, uh, my, my house got flooded two years ago, and the Bible that I had spent so many years writing in, uh, was destroyed. And, um, I have to tell you, um, after my friend's suicide, I, I, man, I was just, like, on my knees one day, just in tears and, and like agony. And I opened the Bible up, and Mick, the first thing I read was, was basically this line that said, "I don't want you to worry. I've got you."

• 46:25John R. Miles?

  And you're, "Let me guide your life to do something that will impact so many people." And, and I just, like, looked at that moment and said, "I'm just gonna devote my life to trusting in this moment." And that's what I've done through, you know, losing everything in floods and everything else that's happened. I just keep focused on, like, like, this mission matters so much, um, that that's what gives me the strength to keep going through the ups and downs that, you know, this entrepreneurial journey and this life journey, uh, brings us.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Amen, brother. Amen. And here's what I wanna do. Just because this, this conversation i- is touching me so much, and, and those that listen and watch the show know that any time that there is an amazing conversation and amazing book, I like to make sure that I show my love back. So here's what I wanna do, John. And I'm gonna have John's social media links to his website. We're gonna get to all that in a second, too. But I'm gonna have all that in the show notes and description. Here's what I want. The first twenty people that message me on LinkedIn or Instagram, but you have to tag John and I, too.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  So you gotta message me, and you gotta at John. Um, I'm gonna buy forty copies of the book.

• 47:57John R. Miles?

  Oh, man.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  And I'm going to send the first forty people. So I'm gonna go the first twenty on LinkedIn, the first twenty on Instagram. Gotta tag us as you DM me. I'm gonna send you a copy of the book. And then I'm gonna need you, the person on the other side, the, the listener, the viewer, the, the people that get this book, after you've read it, I need you to come back and tell us what you picked up, what, what you've implemented or the first thing you are going to implement is. Because this is what I know about John. His book's gonna give you a framework. His book's gonna lay out a really good path. But John can't make you do it.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Mick can't make you do it. You've gotta take those first steps. But I promise you, John's gonna lay out every step that you need to take, because if you know John, that's what he does, and he does it really, really well. So, John, I wanna do that if you will allow me to do that.

• 48:57John R. Miles?

  Man, Mick, that, that is huge. Thank you. Thank you for believing in, in me and the message.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  A, a thousand percent. So, first twenty people, message me, you matter, got you covered. Um, and, and you're gonna get an amazing book, The Mattering Effect. John, you've been awesome. I'm gonna get you out of here on my rapid-fire Unplugged Five. Are you ready?

• 49:21John R. Miles?

  I'm ready.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  All right. You are a Navy man, and one of my closest friends in the world, who actually lives right around the corner from you, Darren Vermost, is an Army guy. Who's gonna win the football game this year, Navy or Army?

• 49:37John R. Miles?

  Well, I, I mean, both teams are gonna be good. I, I was just at, uh, Navy this past weekend, and, uh, they're looking awful good this year, so my money's on Navy.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  So this is go Navy, beat Army. Darren, you heard it. There you go. John, you do a lot of work. You, you work with a lot of Fortune fifty companies. What's one culture trait or characteristic that every great company gets right? What's one?

• 50:09John R. Miles?

  I think it's when they stop stereotyping people in the organization. Because if you're gonna build a culture of mattering, you do that by restoring the ambiguity about people's legitimacy. You, you reduce that ambiguity. And, uh, you know, one of the things that's killing me right now is, um, the, the greatest companies are made because they have diversity of thought. And, and diversity of thought is so important, because when you have group think, that's when companies die.

• 50:53John R. Miles?

  You need to have diversity of perspective, um, and people to push back. When you don't allow people to push back, and you don't allow voices to be heard, mattering gets destroyed, and the culture loses its willingness to speak up and to tell the leadership when things are broken, the need to be fixed.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Love it. Love it. The, the self-research, if I'm someone who's going to start that, I, I really am, what's something that I need to make sure that I do in this self-research so that it goes the right way?

• 51:39John R. Miles?

  So I, I am a big believer that we need mentors and we need our own coaches. And, and one of my own coaches, a long time ago said, said to me, and I talk about this on the, on my podcast, um, like when I was going through the slow fade, it was as if I was living on a stool that had one support underneath it and that support was the constant grind. And he said, you need to start looking at the foundation that you're building.

• 52:19John R. Miles?

  And he goes, you need to look at it through different dimensions. You need to think about your physical health, your emotional health, your mental health, your relationship health, your career health, et cetera. And you need to keep all of those in balance. And like, it goes hand in hand with kind of that matter framework. And I found that for me, the first step I needed to take was to figure out what was causing the most imbalance in my life. And that was the first point that I needed to, to work on. And for me, I had a whole bunch of PTSD that I wasn't dealing with because I, I thought

• 53:06John R. Miles?

  that by going and seeking help, it made me weak as a man. When I broke down that barrier and I actually sought the help and I figured out what my stuck points were that were, were barriers in my life. Man, it, when you start working on one area, almost like water, it starts permeating the other areas and you give your, yourself permission to expand. And that's exactly what happened to me. And it's, the only way I can like help people think about this is like, imagine you're pushing a boulder up a huge hill. Like when you start, those first pushes are going to feel so hard, but the second you

• 53:51John R. Miles?

  start getting momentum behind it, that momentum carries forward. And before you know it, uh, one step happens and another step happens. And then like overnight, the boulder then is over a ridge and it's catching more momentum. That's kind of how self-development happens, but you have to pick one area and it's got to be one of the biggest areas that's holding you back if you want to, if you want to change.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  I like that. I like that. Fourth question. If someone and everybody that's listening and watching, I want you to go to Passion Struck now, whatever, wherever you listen or view podcasts, go there right now. John, what's the, what's one episode you want them to make sure they listen to first?

• 54:45John R. Miles?

  Well, since we've been talking so much about the environments that we surround ourselves with, I, the, one that comes right off the tip of my tongue would be the, the episode I recently did with Angela Duckworth about her new book, Situated, because we, we talk a lot about this. Um, another great episode that happened to happen in the same week, um, was with, um, Jared, I, I'm, I'm drawing a blank and I shouldn't, Jared, Jared is Pulitzer Prize winner. And he basically talks about, uh, the situations that leaders find themselves in.

• 55:23John R. Miles?

  And like, as he was examining Harry, Harry Truman, um, like it, it was, he was like, at that point in time, there were 85 other senators beyond Harry Truman, who were more qualified than Harry Truman to do that job. So was it the environment that Harry, Harry Truman was in? Or was it the fact that he had more courage? That's kind of what Jared gets into. And then the third one would be Greg McKeown. And he and I have this incredible conversation about, uh, the, about the signals that govern our lives. And he's currently pursuing a PhD at, uh, at Oxford.

• 56:08John R. Miles?

  And if you haven't read his books, man, he's a great author too. Uh, but that would be another great discussion.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  I love it. All right. Last question, I'm gonna get you out of here, John. When your memoir is written and we're on the last page and the last paragraph in that final sentence, what's one word you want to make sure is in that sentence to define your legacy?

• 56:40John R. Miles?

  Belief.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Belief. I love it.

• 56:44John R. Miles?

  I, I think there are a number of ways we can look at leaf, belief. But the belief that I'm talking about is so many of us get caught in the mastery trap, trap, the mastery trap. We believe life will finally become more meaningful once everything is under control.

• 57:01John R. Miles?

  And the simple fact is it's never going to be under control. So this, the, the second you start believing in yourself now is the second your life is going to change.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Love it. I love it. Dude, I'm completely humbled. I'm completely honored to spend this time with you. One of the best conversations I've had. You're someone again I've looked up to for a long time. I told you, I listen to your podcast every Saturday. That's how I start my Saturday, even during football season. The first thing I do is I'm, I'm popping on your podcast to catch up. And there's always something that I can implement based on conversations that you have. So John, brother, thank you so much. Everybody that's watching, that's listening, The Mattering Effect. I don't care if you get it on Amazon, you can go to John's website.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  We'll have it plugged up for you in the show notes in the description. Your local bookstore, Barnes and Nobles, it doesn't matter, Books-A-Million. Get this book, the first 40 people, remember 20 on LinkedIn, 20 on Instagram, tag myself and John, that's all, I'm gonna hold myself accountable to make sure you get the book. You're gonna get a copy. Bro, you mean the world to me. This conversation was much needed. You gave me some work that I'm gonna start doing this weekend. So brother, from the bottom of my soul, thank you so much, John.

• 58:33John R. Miles?

  Thank you. Thank you, Mick, for having me. It sucked, I mean, you, you have such an amazing community, uh, that's behind you. And, and man, I, I, I, I have to say, there's some jealousy with some, some of the guests that you've had on the show because we, although you and I have a, a lot of overlap, uh, we, we each have, uh, some unique guests that we've had and, and man, you do it right. Your episodes are top notch. So such a huge honor.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  It's because I have people like you that I can, I can blueprint behind, man. I, you know, we never do anything on our own. I, I tell people this all the time, there's a whole bunch of room on the mountaintop. People just don't try to fight to get there. So they think it's this very little tip. The mountaintop is a huge, is a huge space and I'm, I'm honored to share that mountaintop with you, man. I really am.

• 59:25John R. Miles?

  Thank you, Mick. Mick, thank you so much for a heartfelt, transparent and powerful conversation. What I appreciate most about Mick is that he lives what he preaches. As he said so well at the end of our chat, there's a whole bunch of room on the mountaintop. We don't have to claw over each other or sacrifice our souls just to achieve meaningful success. As a quick reminder, Mick is generously purchasing and giving away 40 copies of The Mattering Effect, 20 on LinkedIn and 20 on Instagram. If you want to claim one, tag both Mick Hunt and me on LinkedIn or Instagram and share your biggest takeaway from today's discussion. Tomorrow, we're continuing this launch week momentum with a very special guest.

• 1:00:09John R. Miles?

  Sean Acor, New York Times bestselling author of The Happiness Advantage, joins me for a deep dive into the architecture of belief, positive psychology, and why believing you matter is the prerequisite to sustainable flourishing.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  But we're still hungering for meaning, for purpose, and as you know, for mattering in this world. What we see in the midst of this great drift is driving us towards all those negative beliefs. My behavior doesn't matter. Look at this news alert. I don't matter. I'm alone. This work isn't meaningful. I have nothing to give. It's not that I matter less, it's that I don't matter.

• 1:00:43John R. Miles?

  If you haven't picked up your copy of The Mattering Effect yet, make sure to grab it today. And if you've already started reading, leaving a quick rating or review on Amazon or Goodreads goes an enormous way in helping this message find people who need it most now. Remember, you were never meant to disappear from your own life. Thank you for listening and as always, stay passion struck.