A High Achievers' Guide To Happiness - Dr Benjamin Hardy | Modern Wisdom Podcast 397

Dr Benjamin Hardy is an organisational psychologist and an author. Many high achievers are unhappy because the same motivation which drives exceptional performance often also leads to feelings of insufficiency, jealousy and comparison. So how can driven people reframe their worldview to come from a place of gratitude and happiness, whilst still keeping that competitive edge? Expect to learn how comparing your performance to your potential is a recipe for disaster, why success without happiness is a pointless pursuit, Ben's best triggers for realising when you've fallen into The Gap, how to protect yourself against complacency when feeling happy with your performance and much more... Sponsors: Join the Modern Wisdom Community to connect with me & other listeners - https://modernwisdom.locals.com/ Get 83% discount & 3 months free from Surfshark VPN at https://surfshark.deals/MODERNWISDOM (use code MODERNWISDOM) Get 20% discount on the highest quality CBD Products from Pure Sport at https://bit.ly/cbdwisdom (use code: MW20) Extra Stuff: Buy The Gap and The Gain - https://amzn.to/309uLLy Check out Ben's website - https://benjaminhardy.com/ Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #confidence #highperformance #goals - 00:00 Intro 00:45 Why Are Most High Achievers Unhappy? 11:59 What is the ‘Gap’ Mentality? 18:09 Importance of Being Content with the Present 24:02 How to Measure & Define Success 37:12 Signs That You’re Falling into the ‘Gap’ 47:32 How to Transform Your Trauma into Gains 53:47 Why is ‘Success’ Put on a Pedestal? 1:00:04 Where to Find Ben - Join the Modern Wisdom Community on Locals - https://modernwisdom.locals.com/ Listen to all episodes on audio: Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There's a difference between what's called harmonious passion and obsessive passion. Obsessive passion means that you feel like you need this thing and if you can't have it, you're never going to be happy. Whereas harmonious passion means you just do what you want. It's way more intrinsic. It's way healthier. If you feel like you're attached to something, then it owns you, you don't own it. And that's really what obsessive passion is, is where this thing owns you and it's actually driving the ship. And that's not what goals are for.

• 0:23Chris Williamson?

  Benjamin Hardy, welcome to the show.

• 0:25Speaker 00

  Yes, Chris. Always. Happy to be with you.

• 0:28Chris Williamson?

  Welcome back, man. It's been a while.

• 0:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's been, I think it must, it must have been during the pandemic because, you know, yeah, it was during the pandemic. So we're not pre, you know, it hasn't been that long.

• 0:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I know. Yeah, we still haven't ventured out outside of a pandemic since we've been mates. But first, one of the things that you talk about a lot is to do with high achievers and performing goals and managing to achieve stuff. Why do you think it is that most high achievers are quite unhappy?

• 0:57Speaker 00

  It's the hedonic treadmill that we talk about. So basically, and this is kind of a Dan Sullivan concept of the gap in the game, but the gap is where you're measuring yourself against your ideals. And your ideals are like the horizon in the desert. So you're, it doesn't matter how many steps you're taking towards the horizon, the horizon keeps moving with you. And so it doesn't matter how successful you are compared to your former self. If you're always measuring yourself against the horizon in front of you, you're always going to feel like trash. And so that's what we would call the gap, is you're always measuring yourself against where you wish you were, and you then devalue where you currently are. When where you currently are is fundamentally enormously further along than your former self. You may be living beyond the dreams of your former self, but if you're always measuring yourself

• 1:40Speaker 00

  against that moving horizon, then, then you're always feeling like you're behind the eight ball. And that's, that's what high achievers do. It doesn't matter what they've accomplished. They're always measuring themselves against where they wish they were, and then therefore devaluing where they currently are.

• 1:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you say that happiness can be a burden. What do you mean by that?

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Well, happiness is a burden if you, if you think you have to go get it. So if you think I have to go and accomplish this thing in order to become happy, I need to be a millionaire. I need to have that book published. I need that New York. If you feel like you need to go out and get happiness, then you make it a burden for yourself. You know, it's, it's not some, happiness is not something you pursue. Happiness is not something you chase. It's not something that outside of yourself. That's actually one of the fundamental realities is, is it's not outside of you. If you're actually chasing happiness outside of you, it's because you're, you've got some emptiness inside of you that you're trying to fill with external accomplishment and you're never going to actually be able to, to find it. Like it's, it's a, it's an endless chase to nowhere because the, the hole is inside of you. It's not outside of you.

• 2:36Chris Williamson?

  So if that's the gap, what's the gain?

• 2:39Speaker 00

  So the gain is multifold, but in the most simple terms, the gain is, is that you're only measuring yourself against where you were before. So like before this conversation, you were telling me about how in the last year and a half, two years, your podcast is 10x, right? So the gain would be measuring yourself against where you were during our last conversation. You know, and you can pick any starting point. So there's a quote from Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway was a famous novelist and he said, "True nobility is not about being superior to other people. True nobility is about being superior to your former self." Right? So the gain is when I Ben Hardy only measure myself against former Benjamin Hardy. And I'm only measuring my gains. Where was I a week ago? Where was I a year ago? Where was I five years ago? I'm tracking my gains. I'm seeing my gains and I'm living in the game.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  I'm actually referencing my gains and I'm, and I'm recognizing and also appreciating my progress.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  And what that does, there's, you know, endless psychological benefits to doing this. One of them is, you know, the most immediate one people think about is what gratitude. Well, that makes sense, but it's also confidence because confidence is the byproduct of past performance. And so if I'm looking at my gains-

• 3:40Chris Williamson?

  What's that mean? Confidence is, is the product of past performance. What's that mean?

• 3:44Speaker 00

  That's what confidence is. You know, you can't have confidence in future performance. You can only have confidence in what you've done, you know? And so if I look back on my past that I actually have written this book, then I have, then I can actually measure my past. I can say, oh, I've actually done this. That gives me confidence, which then can initiate what I want to do next. And so you can only have confidence based on what you've done. And actually, when it comes to measuring progress, I can't measure future performance. I can't measure what I've done in the future. It doesn't exist. The only thing I can actually measure is what I've done. And so the gain is when you start actually measuring your progress and also start valuing your progress. And then from there, you can do whatever you want. But now I'm playing a one-player game. I'm no longer competing with you. I'm no longer worried about what

• 4:28Speaker 00

  the ideal is in the future because my ideals are going to keep changing. I'm just now measuring myself accurately against myself, which then enables me to have a lot more intrinsic motivation. It allows me to stop comparing and competing and really just actually playing my own game and saying, okay, this is the progress I've made, what I want to make now. And it really has no one else's opinion of my progress is relevant. Your opinion of my progress is irrelevant. The only person who's opinion of my progress that matters is me. But if I'm in the gap, I'm devaluing my own progress. I'm now saying it doesn't matter what I've accomplished because I didn't get that achievement.

• 5:04Chris Williamson?

  The best analogy is being in the desert and looking at the horizon and aiming for the horizon. It strikes such a chord, man, with pretty much all of the high achievers that I know of, that they chase after a thing for forever and ever and ever, and then they finally get there. And the first thing that people ask them and that they talk about is what are you going to do next? What am I going to do next? You're constantly moving the goalposts. It's kind of like, it's like being your own worst enemy. If that was the way that your friend spoke to you, if your friend said, every time that you did something good, yeah, yeah, that's all right. But like this, this is really, that's the real shit. This is this. And then when you got the real shit, they said, yeah, yeah, yeah, but this now, this one, that you'd want to tear their head off. You would not be friends with them anymore.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  No, and it's unrelenting. It's unrelenting. I mean, I'll give an example. Basic example, I launched my first book, Willpower Doesn't Work. And this is like the fulfillment of a dream of 10 years, you know, like I wanted to write this book. I end up growing this big audience. I get a book deal for multi-six figures. I end up writing this book. And it doesn't hit the New York Times Bestseller list. And so now I frame it as a failure, right? And so that's the gap, right? I'm framing against what it should have been, or what ideally could have been. And so now I've just devalued all of this progress that I just made over the last 10 years. And now I feel like a failure because it wasn't what I thought it ideally should have been. And even with this recent launch, I mean, by all markers, by far, the biggest launch ever, but I'm already in the gap thinking, well, I could have doubled

• 6:34Speaker 00

  it, you know? So like, it's an unrelenting thing unless you get into the game and just measure yourself backwards. There's literally, where am I now versus where was I before? That's all I need to do.

• 6:42Chris Williamson?

  Two elements there, the should and the could. That's, that's quite interesting as well, because-

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Those are all gap. Should, would, could are all gap.

• 6:49Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And especially the could, because the could is, is, is it physically possible? If you're a high achiever, you're probably going to go for, I want to start a podcast, therefore I'm looking at Rogan, or Lex Friedman, or fucking call her daddy or something. That's where I'm going to put myself out. But by its very nature, there's only one of those people in the world. Like, there's only one number one, and everybody else is not number one. So if everyone on the planet tried to become number one, you're going to end up failing at that. You're always going to be dissatisfied. But I suppose, a lot of people get addicted to the gap as a motivating factor, because feelings of insufficiency can propel you forward to do hard things.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it is, it is a, a good fuel for people who want to achieve or prove themselves. But at the end of the day, it will never satisfy the internal problem that it's fueling. And the internal problem it's fueling is, is that you're still trying to get to some place you think you need to get to in order to be worthy, or, or, or whole, or happy. And it's never going to get there. The gap won't go away. Like, let's just say you actually do create the biggest podcast, and now you're bigger than Rogan. Okay, cool. You just beat Rogan. Cool. Congrats. Now you're, now you're, now you're somebody. But that gap's now going to be 50 times bigger, because now you're, now you're measuring yourself

• 8:11Speaker 00

  against something else. And so it's not that achieving things is bad. It's that the gap is never going to actually fulfill the, the problem that it's trying to satisfy. And so having ideals is great. Having goals is great. I mean, I'm, my goals keep getting bigger and bigger. Being in the game doesn't shrink my ambition. It actually just enables me to know that the ambition isn't going to actually make me happy. I'm already happy. You don't actually set goals to be happy. You should set goals because you're already happy. Like, I'm not setting goals and trying to write these books in order to become a happy person. I'm doing it because I'm already stoked and I just want to keep growing my own happiness. I'm not trying to, you know, fill some need that is an empty space within me, you know?

• 8:55Chris Williamson?

  What if people have an empty space? What if they they don't feel like they're enough? Maybe they they feel like there are certain things that they want to achieve in life or paths and failures that they haven't got past.

• 9:09Speaker 00

  They can, but being in the gap is never going to actually satisfy that. Like, let me give an example. My younger brother, Trevor, he's two years younger than me. You know, by external measures, people might consider him a failure. You know, he dropped out of high school, got kicked out of the military, and has gone job to job to job for the last 10 years. He does have an amazing daughter. But if he is looking at his own past and if he's feeling like a failure, and by the way, we can be in the gap about our past as well. If you're in the gap about your past, you're measuring it against what it could have, would have, should have been, right? Or against other people, you know? And so there's nothing beneficial about going in the gap about your own past and saying, oh, it could have been something else. Like, at some point,

• 9:52Speaker 00

  you've got to actually start seeing your own gains and creating gains and actually just running your own race. And it's, and so I'm all about people achieving goals. But, and and there are things that people may really want to do. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do it, but if you feel like you need it in order to be successful, you're never going to actually fill that need. You can want it. There's a big difference and a healthy difference between wanting and needing.

• 10:14Chris Williamson?

  How do you define that?

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Well, if you feel like you need something, first off, you have to justify it. And it's a lot healthier just to want something because you want it. You know, that's intrinsic motivation.

• 10:25Chris Williamson?

  Do you not need to justify the want as well?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  No.

• 10:28Chris Williamson?

  Why do you want that thing?

• 10:30Speaker 00

  Because you want it. You don't need to justify why you want to grow a podcast. You can just say, because I want to, because it sounds fun. I don't need to justify why I write books. It's because I want to, you know? You don't need to justify anything, but when you're in the game, you can go and have what you want. And intrinsic motivation is about wanting, whereas, you know, extrinsic motivation means you feel like you need it to have something else. Right? And also in psychology, there's a difference between what's called harmonious passion and obsessive passion. Obsessive passion means that you feel like you need this thing, and if you can't have it, you're never going to be happy. Whereas harmonious passion means you just do what you want. It's way more intrinsic. It's way healthier. I use in the book, an example of a football player here in America.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  His name is, and this is American football, where they throw, throw like a weird oval shaped, you know, device. But this is Trevor Lawrence, and he talked about how he doesn't need football to be, to be considered a healthy, happy person. Like, he's like, if I, if you took football away from me, I'd be fine. And so he's just saying, I don't need football, but I'm completely committed to it. Like, I love it. I'm completely committed, but I don't need it. And that's kind of a healthy detachment. Like in Buddhism, they would say like, you know, if you feel like you're attached to something, then it owns you. You don't own it. And that's really what obsessive passion is, is where this thing owns you, and it's actually driving the ship. And that's not what goals are for. You own your goals. You own your future. You should decide,

• 11:52Speaker 00

  you know, you should be able to control it. But if you feel like it owns you, then you're the slave of your own goals. And that's, that's an unhealthy place to be.

• 11:59Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think we have a gap mentality? Where's it come from?

• 12:06Speaker 00

  It's definitely like less existent in kids. Kids are a lot more intrinsically motivated.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Our arguments are a few aspects of society. One is, so like the gap is where you're measuring yourself against some external reference point. Right? So the public education system is one kind of aspect of this. Right? So like, we're in public education, you're given grades on tests, right? And you're measured against other people. And so the measuring stick or the, the reference point for your performance is given by, you know, external authorities, and then you're measured against other people. People, so you're already taught to measure yourself against externals that are given by someone else. And you're also measuring yourself against other people from the get go. Um, and so that's, that's one aspect. And then once you get like older and older,

• 12:53Speaker 00

  it's generally culture or society that gives you the reference points to measure yourself against, you know, social media likes, you know, amount of money you make. And so usually all of our, our reference points are externally driven generally by culture or by, you know, the upbringing we're given. And we never develop an internally referencing system where we just start measuring ourselves against ourselves and deciding what we want. What are the reference points that I care about that I want that have nothing to do with anyone else? And where it's just you running your own race. And so that's kind of where I think being in the game starts you is once I just start measuring myself against myself. Don't really care about you. Don't care about what your opinion is of my progress. I can be respectful of your progress. I can be pumped for your 10x jump. But my opinion of your jump doesn't really matter. What matters is your opinion of your own jump.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  And, um, and so just getting to the point where you're actually measuring your own progress and valuing your own progress. And then from there, deciding what you want to do from a wanting perspective, rather than a needing perspective. What do I want to do because I want it and because I value it regardless of what you know, it's things and without needing to justify why I want it to anyone else. That's actually what they would call self-actualization or, or what they would call freedom, freedom too. So like, there's two levels of freedom psychologically. One is freedom from, which is where you free yourself from poverty. You free yourself from, you know, a bad, toxic environment. You free yourself from ignorance. But the goal of freedom from is to give you a place of freedom too, which is where you, you're free to choose whatever you want.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  You, you're free to pursue what you want because you want it. Um, and it takes a lot of courage to actually chase what you want because you want it. Uh, it's a lot easier to just focus on, uh, you know, trying to, trying to be successful to other people. Or, you know, doing what you think other people want you to do.

• 14:40Chris Williamson?

  Have you looked at status and how you think this relates to that? Because I had Will Store on the show a couple of months ago and his new book, The Status Game is fucking phenomenal. And he talks a lot about just how ingrained are comparisons between us, the mapping of keeping track of where we are within the dominance hierarchy. Have I, I'm moving up, he's moving down, so on and so forth. So it seems like there's an evolutionary compulsion, some sort of adaptive evolutionary compulsion for us to be in the gap. Because without that, without that external comparison to the rest of the people, you would just do like, let's say that you're an artist in 40,000 B.C. world on the Ethiopian plains somewhere,

• 15:22Chris Williamson?

  and no one gives a shit about art, but that's just what you do. You're stacking rocks up. You're dead. You're bottom of the pile because you don't contribute anything to the tribe. So there has to be an adaptive property of this, just no longer adaptive.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  I like what you're saying. I mean, one of the concepts, I've never read the book. I want to. I'm going to put it right on the reading list. What's it called? The Status Game?

• 15:41Chris Williamson?

  The Status Game. Yeah, yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. That sounds great. I'm definitely sticking that right on my list. One of the things that, you know, Dan and Dan's the co-author of this book, and by the way, the originator of the concept. He came up with this idea 25 years ago because his coaching program, which is called Strategic Coach, is generally considered one of the highest end coaching programs for entrepreneurs in existence. And the only reason he created this concept in the first place was because he just found that it didn't matter how much his clients were succeeding, they were all unhappy, you know? And so this is, this is more, this is, I would argue, this concept isn't initially designed to make you more successful. I would argue, there's already a billion books on that subject, and this

• 16:24Speaker 00

  book is not immediately optimized for that. This book is to help the high achiever who's already listening to this podcast, learn to be happy along the way and to value their progress. But the byproduct is, is that once they get into the game, It's kind of like you train your brain. Once you start seeing gains, creating more gains from your experience, which is another aspect of the game. It's not just about measuring your progress, it's also about creating more gains, even from, for example, traumas and whatnot. Once you start creating more gains and training your brain to see more gains, you'll actually start becoming enormously more successful, but it's without that weird psychological need that we're talking about where you're needing to get there, or you feel like you should get there, where you're comparing, or you're measuring against someone else.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  So it becomes a lot healthier and you completely be free of all of that. But one of the, just back to the status concept, one of the, and this may or may not be relevant, but one of the things I've always learned from Dan is he said, you should seek growth, not status, because if you're seeking status, you might not actually grow. Or if, once you achieve that status, it might plummet your growth. So if my whole, if my whole ambition is to reach some status, New York Times bestseller, millionaire, billionaire, once you reach the status, if you reach it, the growth, there's no guarantee that seeking status will actually lead to growth.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  But if you're just genuinely seeking growth, chances are you'll accumulate a lot of status, but it isn't necessarily what you were going for in the first place. I could get all the status in the world, but if it's my goal, you know, there's no guarantee I'm actually growing as a human being, you know? But if my goal is actually growth, it's not that hard to get status.

• 18:09Chris Williamson?

  When it comes to the high achievers, you have to ask yourself a question of, what's the fucking point of being this successful if I'm not happy? Like, what's the point? But presumably, I ask, I ask myself this all the time. This is, I know that we're mutual friends with Greg McKeown, and you know, there's echoes of essentialism, I think, in The Gap and The Gain, talking about removing the stuff that doesn't matter, why are you doing the things that you're doing? What are your points of highest contribution? Is it intrinsic? Is it extrinsic? So on and so forth. But.

• 18:40Chris Williamson?

  What is the point of achieving all of this success that you're chasing after? If you're miserable along the way, presumably the point of getting the success of being successful to you in your mind is that it's going to make you happy. Now, if happiness is there for you in the moment, why go through all of the rigmarole of having to wait until you do this thing? If you're climbing up a mountain, 99% of the journey is you going up and only 1% is you standing on the top. And then as soon as you do that, you decide, well, yeah, but there's another mountain there that I've got to go after. There has to be a shortcut to this. I'm aware that the hedonic fucking treadmill is a hell of a drug and we're wired to play status games and compare ourselves against others and it's a motivating force and all of these things.

• 19:22Chris Williamson?

  But man, if someone who isn't me yet can master the ability to just take pleasure right now in the things that you're doing and genuinely be able to look at, did I give a good enough? Not even my best. Did I give a good enough solution for me to feel like I'm happy today? Yes. Right, well, fucking be happy then. Like, you don't need to wait for something to happen. You don't have to wait to record the perfect podcast or to have the perfect sales call or release the perfect online course or get the perfect book because you're never going to get that. That is the horizon that continues to move away.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, our argument is happiness is really how you measure. You know, if you set a goal, you know, I could set the goal that I wanted to write this book, right? And let's just say I'm halfway through writing it. Like, I can, even though the book's not actually finished, I can measure back and say, like, because I'm in the middle of writing a book, right? And of course, I want to finish the book. I'm committed to finishing the book I'm writing right now, but I'm in the messy of the middle, right? I'm halfway up the mountain, I guess you could say. Now, I could be mad at myself right now, like the current Benjamin Hardy that you're talking about. I can be miserable because the book's not done and I can believe in my mind that once I actually finish the book, then Benjamin Hardy will be finally happy. I can give myself permission, once the book is done, obviously knowing that now I've got to go out and do a million other things, if that's the game I'm going to play.

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Or I can actually just measure myself backwards and say, you know what? Where am I right now versus where I was when I started writing the book? Well, I've got 40,000 words and it's pretty cool. And I've changed a lot of my belief systems even going through it. And so if I just start measuring myself backwards and seeing my progress, I can be happy in that if that's the game I'd rather play. And that's a much healthier, happier game. It doesn't stop me from wanting to finish the book. It's not, but I actually get to love my progress along the way and increase the value. It's my current position doesn't change. Your current position doesn't change if you measure yourself against your moving ideal, or if you measure yourself against your former self. Your, your position doesn't change. How you feel about your position fundamentally changes.

• 21:29Chris Williamson?

  That's a bomb. That's such a bomb insight, man.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  That's really it. That's it. Like your current position doesn't change if you're measuring yourself in the gap of the game, but how you feel about your current position fundamentally changes. And if you feel better, if you feel the gains and if you feel the progress and if you're no longer on the rat race or the treadmill of trying to get to the next thing. If you're like, this is my game. This is where I'm at. I can see my progress. I'm loving my progress. This is where I'm going. I know that five more steps up the mountain, I'm still not going to be there, but I'm going to be further than I am right now. And I can then measure those gains. And this is the gains that I want to have. This is the progress I want to make because this is what I'm motivated towards. This is the, you know, this is a mountain I'm choosing to climb. It has nothing to do with your mountain or anyone else's opinion of what mountain I should climb. This is the mountain I'm choosing to climb. And every step forward, I'm going to measure my gains and be in the game.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  And I'm going to let my gains propel me rather than the gap kind of, you know, whatever. It's just a, it's just a different experience. And so if people, you know, wherever a person is, they can either devalue that current position by measuring it in a gap, whatever the gap is against someone else, against, you know, what society's opinion is.

• 22:31Chris Williamson?

  Imagine ideal.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Ideal, yeah. Or they can take their current position and up level it by framing themselves in the game. And you can do this on a daily basis as well. Let's just say my goal today was to hit 5,000 words in my book and I only hit 2,000. Do I want to be in the gap about today and say today was a failure because I only wrote 2,000 words when my goal was five and so therefore today was a failure? I'm upset about it. I'm gonna just, you know, today was a lost day. I'm a loser. Or do I want to actually create gains and say, okay, I got 2,000 words, but what else did I learn today? If I can, in other words, you can contextualize anything however you want. But it does zero good for you to contextualize today as a failure. It does nothing for your confidence. It doesn't, you get no benefits from it. You're actually literally just devaluing your own experience.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Why devalue your past? Why not inflate the value of your past? Because you're the only person who has access to your past. I'm the only person who has access to Benjamin Hardy's experiences. I can either flush them down the toilet and be mad at them because they're not what I thought they should be, or I can increase the value of my experience and learn from them. I can create gains from them. And that's really like how you create post-traumatic growth. Something rough happens and if you're in the gap, you're saying, why did this happen? I'm worse off now because it happened. Post-traumatic growth is when you take an experience that's rough and you increase the value of it. What are all the things I learned from this? How can I be better because of this? My current self, because this happened, is actually better and further and stronger and more anti-fragile than my former self. Therefore, I'm glad it happened. That's being in the game. That's turning any experience into a game.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  How should people measure or define their success criteria then? Basically, you gotta create your own success criteria. What does success mean to you? You're the only person who, you know, the more developed you become as a person, the more you define what success means to you. Like, my value system's gonna be different from your value system. And as you grow and mature, at some point, you gotta create your own value system. You know, you can obviously pull it from different sources. What do you mean by value system? Value system is how you're measuring yourself. You know, you create goals from a value system. You create success criteria from a value system, you know? And so, you know, and you can turn a value system into specific measurables, which you can do. But at some point, you need to define what success means for yourself.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  And your definition of success is gonna be different from mine. Your view of your future self is different from mine. And so... You gotta ask yourself, what matters to me? That's kind of, it does kind of track back to essentialism. Like, you can't, you can't go for essential if you can't define what's essential to you. And so you've got to actually define what matters to me and then create a success criteria around that.

• 25:09Chris Williamson?

  So what's important to me? These are my values. These are the things that I value within myself and around me.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:16Chris Williamson?

  From that, you try to create goals and projects.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Well, there's principles and projects. You know, there are principles you can live by, right? One of them could be essentialism. That's a principle. That's an idea. And you can, you can measure yourself on how essentially you're living, right? That's a, that's a, that's a principle. If you believe in it and if you like it, you can measure yourself against that if that's within your value. Or it can be goals, you know? And it's a lot easier to measure yourself either against a principle or a measurable target than just an abstract ideal. So like, I can create success criteria for a specific project or even for myself in 2020, uh, you know, 2022. Like, I can, I can create success criteria and I can say, you know, in order for this to be a success for me, it's gotta, it's gotta be a certain way. It's gotta, you know, it's gotta sell a certain number of copies, et cetera.

• 26:02Speaker 00

  I can create my own success criteria, right? Um, and the more clear you are on what success means, the more you actually can move forward towards a clear path. Most people, they're not very measured in their future because they're measuring themselves against ideals. And they're not very measured in their past because they're not, most people just don't track their gains, honestly.

• 26:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What does, um, the view you have of your future is the thing driving your present mean?

• 26:30Speaker 00

  That's a great, that's a great concept. That's basically prospection in psychology. So prospection is, uh, is the idea, and this is one of the biggest unearthings of positive psychology in the last probably 20 years, is psychology as a discipline believed that we were actually, uh, driven by our past.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  Now, there's a lot of distinctions here, so I'll break it down. Um, what we're really driven by is our view of our future. Now, this is different from being in the gap. The gap is about measuring yourself against the future. Thinking I need to be there and because I'm not there, I'm a loser. The gain is where you measure yourself against your past. But the truth is, we are driven by our future self. So you, whatever your goal, you know, you were driven by a future that landed you to this point. Right? You had a future self, even if it was undefined or defined, however defined you got it. And that's what landed you to this moment. Um, and you now have a future that's driving you and I have a future that's driving me. And this is in big and small ways. In philosophy, they call it teleology. Basically, teleology means that all behavior is driven by an end. You know, Aristotle called it final cause.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  So like, the way that this book became a reality was that there was some end. And that drove me to finishing the pages. Right? Um, you know, even me, like even us getting onto this podcast, there was a scheduled appointment that led us to having this call. You know, and at some point you're going to go have dinner. And so you're being driven by the next thing. And what's interesting and Robert Greene actually hits this really hard in the 50th law. But this is really true is that, and also there's a lot of research on this in positive psychology. Hal Hirschfield. The sad part for most people is, is that they're driven by an almost immediate future. We all, we know there's immediate needs, there's immediate, there's things pushing up against us, paying the bills or just getting to the next thing.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  And most people never transcend that and start thinking like 10, 15, 20 years into the future and start thinking about a much bigger future to chase and be driven by. So most people are just dealing with immediate battles, you know? And so they're being driven by a very short term future. Um, but we're all being driven by the future. That's what prospection is, the idea of prospection.

• 28:38Chris Williamson?

  What's the problem with being driven by a short term future?

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Well, it's, there's nothing wrong with urgency or immediate goals. But if that's all you have, then you're just actually on the rat race going nowhere. It's like a lot of, it's a lot of movement, but no progress. Right? Um.

• 28:55Chris Williamson?

  Do you have more motivation? People, there's some experiments that have been done around people's motivation levels or happiness when they've got a broader, longer term life plan?

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, definitely. So bigger goals certainly are more motivating than small goals, but also when it comes to the future self-research, the quality of your decisions in the present are directly impacted by your connection and commitment to a longer-term future self. So like, let's just say a future self 20 years from now. If you're connected to that, if you're committed to that, if you're clear on that, you're going to make different decisions than if you were only committed to whatever's just flashing in your face, the next fire to put out, or just getting to work, or to paying the bills. Like, if you have a longer-out future, then you're going to probably make very different decisions, because the goal always determines the process. Whatever, whatever future self you're most thinking about or committed to is the thing driving your behavior the most.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  And so, yeah, longer, longer-term objectives or investments certainly yield a lot longer-term happiness, and also better outcomes, you know? Like, if your goal is only just to pay the bills, you're not going to be able to do something big enough that's going to lead to something great enough, you know? So having bigger goals and having a longer-term future leads to more satisfying results, endgame.

• 30:10Chris Williamson?

  Well, I suppose what you're doing with a, a large goal or a longer-term goal, what you're trying to achieve, is something that takes a lot of time. By virtue of it taking a lot of time to compound, presumably it's going to be quite big and impressive, which means that you're going to take small steps, but very small, important steps strategically to get along there. So James Clear says, "Each action that you take is a vote for the future type of person that you want to be." So if you want to be someone in five years' time who is able to do an Iron Man, you are going to do things today. You might not be able to do the Iron Man for four and a half years. You might only reach that point, but if that's the goal that you're trying to move toward, you're going to do conditioning pieces today and tomorrow and the day after. Whereas, what's the, what's the best sort

• 30:53Chris Williamson?

  of goal that you can reach in terms of your endurance if your timeline is only two months or one month? You think, "Oh, well, I'll, I'll, I'll set my sights quite low," and it, it's not very grand. It doesn't excite us the same way.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, so here's a great quote from Robert Greene's The 50th Law. And the only reason I share this is because this is the book I'm currently reading, which if you haven't read, I think it's pretty cool. So he says this, "By our nature as rational, conscious creatures, we cannot help but think of the future. But most people, out of fear, limit their view of the future to a narrow range. Thoughts of tomorrow, a few weeks ahead, perhaps a vague plan for the months to come. We are generally dealing with so many immediate battles that it is hard for us to lift our gaze above the moment. It is a law of power, however, that the further and deeper we contemplate the future, the greater our capacity to shape it to our desires."

• 31:50Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I mean, what's interesting, you know, going back to Hal Hirschfield, Hal Hirschfield being a UCLA psychologist, is his view is that human beings haven't evolved to think 20, 30, 40 years into the future. You know, like if you were a hunter-gatherer, you were mostly just like trying to gather food for the week or for the month, like, right? You weren't planning for retirement, right? Like, you weren't thinking, "Where do I want to be in 20 or 30 years?" Like, you were trying to survive the week, right? And so, most people are not connected or clear on where they want to be in 20, 30 years from now, and they're not planting big enough seeds, you know? And then, and there's a great quote that basically says, "Time will either promote you or expose you," right?

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Like, if you're not actually planning towards a bigger future and using that to direct a daily process towards big-term goals, the future's going to expose you. Your future self's going to be way less than it could have been. Like, you know what I mean? And so, time will promote you like crazy if you're investing, you know, daily towards bigger and bigger goals, you know? And every action you take, kind of back to James Clear's concept... He calls it a vote towards the person you want to become. I call it an investment towards the person you're becoming because everything you invest in becomes, you know, it compounds over time. Whatever you invest in grows. And so every action you take towards your future self intentionally is an investment that's compounding massively. And you can

• 33:15Speaker 00

  compound some crap, you know, you can compound weeds in the garden essentially, which is just, you know, every day you jump on social media and just kick it like you're investing and there's, you know, everything bears fruit. So it's going to be good fruit or bad fruit.

• 33:31Chris Williamson?

  I suppose as well, when you want to do something that's hard in the moment, the big broader goal is more inspiring because it's so much further away because you want to do the Iron Man, or you want to hit a million dollars, or you want to find and start a family or whatever, because you have such a grand goal, it gives you more justification and motivation in the moment. Like you're going to be more motivated to do something that's huge than you are to do something that's small. And then you can break that down.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, how I look at it is, small visions aren't that motivating. Bigger visions are motivating, but when it comes to the actions on a daily basis, so like big vision, but small steps, you know, it's kind of like tiny habits or atomic habits. Like, like if I have a big goal of one day, you know, selling millions and millions of books and, you know, having this amazing lifestyle with my family, like that's a great vision that's drawing me forward. But if I actually want to accomplish it on a daily basis, I actually need smaller goals. Like, again, back to the idea of me trying to write 5,000 words. If that actually was my goal, chances are it would be too big of an elephant to try to bite in one day, and I might just justify not doing it. So when it comes to actually behavior, you actually

• 34:39Speaker 00

  want to have smaller goals on a daily basis that give you commitment and momentum, you know, so if my goal is actually just to write 200 words today, I know I can commit to that. And if I do it, chances are I'll get so much momentum, I'll write 500 or 1,000 or 2,000. But at least that day I made an investment in my future self. Whereas most people on a daily basis, they're not actually making progress, either because most people actually, their vision is fundamentally smaller than it could be. I'm talking their long-term future self. Um, we all have caps on our future self, but you know, there's a great quote from Dan Sullivan. He said that the only way to make your present better is by making your future bigger. You know, and that really tracks directly to um, prospection that we're all driven by whatever view we have of our future.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  And the level of engagement you have towards your present is based on the commitment and excitement you have towards the future. And so, but then on a daily, you know, you want to make it very doable on the daily.

• 35:35Chris Williamson?

  So most people have probably got that inverted, that the long-term vision that they're looking for is too small. And the daily vision that they're trying to achieve is too large.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Fundamentally, yeah. And so it crushes motivation on both manners because their big, their big picture vision isn't compelling. And their daily vision is too big. And so on a daily basis, they set themselves for failure and then they frame it in the gap anyways. And so now they've framed today as a loss, or they just procrastinated it because it was too big. And the, and where it's taking them in the long run, isn't that compelling anyways. Um, so yeah, that is the inversion. It is the inversion.

• 36:09Chris Williamson?

  Recipe for disaster. Jesus.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  It is. It is. But think about it. If you have doable daily goals and you just did it and you measure in the gain and you're like, you're, you're stoked on it. And you also are tracking towards a massive mountain that you're loving. Uh, and that the mountain will keep getting bigger. There's nothing wrong with your ideals growing, by the way. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. We just invite you to actually measure yourselves against the gain rather than the gap. There's nothing wrong with having a massive future self and also then to quantify it and give yourself specific success criteria along the way. Um, but yeah, I mean, if you can just, if you knocked out some aspects of your big goals today. And framed it in the game and then you did the same thing tomorrow and the next day and the next day and you do it for the next two, three, five, 10 years.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  It's compounding. The challenge for most people is, is that the goal, the long-term is too small. And now they're trying to make up for it and justify. So they try to, you know, do too much and it ends up leading to a lot of bad days. But also a lot of framed days in the gap, which then just makes them unhappy.

• 37:10Chris Williamson?

  I quite like the gap in the game concept. I first heard you tease it on Greg's show like a year ago or six months ago or something. And I've had it in my head since then, but people have got heavily habituated framing of situations. Have you got any habits or triggers to notice when people fall into the gap?

• 37:28Speaker 00

  If you are in the, if you feel bad in any way, seriously. Literally, if you feel negative in any way towards yourself, towards someone, toward a situation, it's because you're framing it against an ideal. I'm serious. It's very physical. It's very biological. If I am unhappy about today in any way, or if I'm unhappy about my wife, or if I'm unhappy about my kids, or I'm unhappy about my team,

• 37:54Speaker 00

  any form of unhappiness means I'm measuring it against some ideal.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Seriously, like, and so, I mean, a lot of times, the, so like, one of my favorite quotes is, "You never see the outside world, you only see your own reaction to it." Right? "You never see the outside world, you only see your own reaction to it." Right? So, for example, my kid is throwing a tantrum, and now I'm upset. The only thing I see is my reaction. I could see that tantrum from a totally different perspective. I could try to understand what's really going on here. Why, you know, like, I don't have to be upset, but whatever reaction I have is what I see. I could choose instead to have empathy, right? And so, if you're, if, if you're not liking something, it's because you're measuring it incorrectly. You've contextualized it against some ideal or something like that.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  And so, the way out is honestly just practicing being in the game. You know, like, from a motivation standpoint, you're either approaching or you're avoiding. It's a lot easier to approach what you want than to avoid what you don't. Like, as an example, addiction. Like, I could spend all my time trying to avoid addiction, or I could just clarify my goals and start making small wins towards what I want. Right? It's a lot better to approach what you want. So, when it comes to the game, it's a lot better, I mean, you want to be very aware of the gap, because it'll get you, it gets, it catches us all, you know? Um, you know, and if you're just unhappy about something, it's because you're probably in the gap about it. Um, you know, I can go in the gap about my kid and be upset that he's not doing better in his school. Or, I can just look at that same person and say, "Yeah, but how's he doing against where he was last year?"

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Or, "Against where he was last week," you know? And so, you can just jump into the game. I mean, we actually break down some tiny habit recipes from BJ Fogg in the book about practicing. It's like, you know, as an example, every time, you know, you go in the gap and feel like you're failing miserably as a person, actually just pull out your journal and write down three gains from the last day, or three gains from the last week, or three gains from the last month. Like, actually practice measuring yourself backwards on a regular basis. Um, one of the things, you know, so you want to just actually practice being in the game. And you can do it in different, different styles. Like one is if you want to just like literally sit down and actually have a journaling session where you literally just sit down and you write down different timeframes, you know, where am I versus where I was 10 years ago, you know?

• 40:14Speaker 00

  And you can take time to actually think about it. Gains don't just have to be external accomplishments. They could actually be changes in how you see the world. You know, my former self wasn't an entrepreneur. I didn't apply mental models like who, not how. You know, I was making 10x or less, you know, 10x less money than I am now. So like I can, I had different beliefs about money. I had different beliefs about people. Like I can go back and look at my gains in my belief system and my experiences, but also in my situation and, you know, and in fundamental external accomplishments. I can do that for five years. I could do that for one year. I could do that for five months. You can do that for a week, you know? And you get to, you actually get to frame not only the meaning of your past experiences, but what you got out of that experience. And so if I just look back on where I was a week ago,

• 40:59Speaker 00

  most people, you know, probably haven't thought about it. Where were you a week ago versus where you are now? But the truth is you're actually in a different place. You actually have gone through experiences and now you get to go through and organize what those experiences actually mean. So I can actually just think, where actually was I a week ago? What the heck happened over the last week? What did I learn over the last week? How am I different than I was a week ago? What are some of the important experiences that I had? That are evidences that I'm actually moving towards my future self, you know? And I can do that on a daily basis too, you know? And so you can just practice being in the game. And so one just last thought on this is I would invite you, you know, we actually have a full chapter on this. Chapter five in the book is all about the last day, the last hour of your day. Put your phone on airplane mode because obviously you don't want to train reactivity.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  Pull out your journal and just write down three wins for the day. It doesn't matter if they were the three wins you were going for. Seriously, you might've had three goals for the day and you missed them all. But what are three wins you did get? What are three forms of progress you did make? What are three things that did, that did happen that can be considered gains? And then choose the three for tomorrow. And you just get in this habit of always winning. I'm always in a habit of today was a gain. Even if it didn't go exactly how I planned, it was a gain. I'm further along than I was before. I'm better than I was before. And what do I want to get tomorrow? And it just trains you to just create gains. So I think that that's just a healthy habit to be into.

• 42:18Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, one of the things that I think is going to be a challenge to people, or that is a big difference to how most people live their lives if they don't embed themselves in organizational psychology, is that they need to take time away from the urgent with this. If you're constantly putting out fires and doing things and remaining busy and answering emails quickly and replying on social media, there's two main strategies that we're talking about. One of them is to do with your vision moving forward, your vision of a future and how you're framing that. And the second one is a reflection of you in the past. The vast, vast, vast majority of people don't do either of those things. They haven't formalized their values. They don't know what their goals are growing out of. Their goals that are written down are very, sorry, that they have are written, not written down in a very loose

• 43:02Chris Williamson?

  and kind of ephemeral and nebulous and they're over there and it's cloudy. And then reflection doesn't really occur in a formal way. It's the reflection is resentment or chips on their shoulder about things that could have, would have, should have happened in the past.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Gap.

• 43:17Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So neither of these things, neither of the two most important things are all that common. We're being fire hosed with fucking information and jobs and jobs to do every single day. And that's stopping us from doing what sounds like two of the most important tasks that we have to do. Planning where we want to be in the future and reflecting on what we've achieved in the past.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  You know, it's, it's, it's that simple. I mean, you know, in, you hear about how you should ignore the past and the future and only be in the present, but from a psychological standpoint, it's fundamentally impossible. Your experience in the present is based on how you feel about your past and how you feel about your future. You know, like, and also, as we've talked about, your present is literally being driven by where you want to go in the future, but it's also about how you feel about your past. And a positive psychology in the present is based on having a positive past and a compelling future. Like, but the past being positive was based on how you framed it, how you measured it, how you defined it. I could have.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Objectively, the same experience. You know, my father, as an example, was a drug addict. You know, I could have gotten in a car accident last week. Uh, my business could have failed last week. But how I frame my past is up to me. Am I in the gap or the gain? Right? Like, it does not matter what happened. It matters how I frame and measure it. Am I further along than I was before? Am I better than I was before? Have I learned more than I knew before? And am I advancing? You know? And also, do I get to change, you know, define the meaning of it? So, yeah, what you're describing is essential. I mean, we do need a, a clear future that's driving us. That's exciting and that we want to, we want to have. And being in the game means you're, you're quantifying and measuring your past in a way that makes it valuable and measurable and useful.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  And, and, and what's great about it is, is you can, you can keep expanding your experience. You know, like I'm talking about like your own experiences. Like you have experiences, right?

• 45:14Speaker 00

  You can keep going back to the same experience over and over and over again and getting more and more gold out of that. And also continuing to expand what it means. Just back to me. Me growing up in a, my dad being a drug addict. I get to go back as the 33-year-old version of this and think about that experience and learn from that experience and redefine what it means and redefine all the good that came from that. And also the challenges that allowed me to grow. And then in 10 years from now, the 43-year-old version of me can go back to that same experience and continue to learn from it. Keep evolving that experience. Keep, and so, you know, your experiences can either happen to you or you can happen to your experiences. If your hap, if your experiences happen to you, that means that you're the passenger of whatever happens to you. Got in a car accident, you're unhappy.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  Or you can happen to your experiences and you can actually shape what the experience means, the value of the experiences, all that you learned from it, what you can do because of it, what you're going to avoid now because of it. You know, you get to, you know, and that's how you learn. So what's interesting is the gap in the game, aside from being a measuring model, is actually a learning model. Like, how much can I learn from this experience? How much juice can I squeeze out of it? If I'm in the gap about an experience, I've just devalued it and I'm avoiding it and I don't want to deal with it. And it's, it was just an experience that shouldn't have happened. And therefore, I got nothing out of it. I'm just worse off because it happened. But it's your choice what you do with your experiences. You can either be in the gap where you measure them against something else or you can transform them, where you keep getting more and more out of them and keep getting better as a result. It's totally just your choice what you do with your own, your own past.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Your past is a fiction, by the way. Just as your future's a fiction, your past is a fiction.

• 46:47Chris Williamson?

  What do you mean?

• 46:49Speaker 00

  You make it up, literally. You're the one making up what your past means. You're the one making up the story of it. I can, you know, I can, you're the one who's making it up along the way.

• 46:59Chris Williamson?

  What if someone's recalling what happened accurately in their own mind?

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, they can recall the experience, but all of the emotions, the energy and the meanings are, are, um, are gonna be their own doing. Those things, that goes back to, it's not what happens, it's your reaction to it.

• 47:18Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's, that's the Marcus Aurelius quote, isn't it? The universe itself is change and life is but, but what we deem it. Life itself is but what we deem it. And that-

• 47:29Speaker 00

  That is your past.

• 47:31Chris Williamson?

  What about if someone's had a situation that's caused them a fair bit of trauma in the past? Or they've got something that they're hung up on, the way that they were treated in school, or, you know, it could be a longer term, the way that they were treated by their parents and stuff like that. What are some of the triggers for people to transform those sort of difficult experiences into gains?

• 47:51Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I will say that the only way you can move forward and for it to cease being a trauma is once you actually have framed it as a gain. You, it will be a trauma until you see it genuinely as a gain, that you're glad it happened and that it actually is something that made you better as a result. So as far as kind of, you know, getting practical, this slightly goes back to approach versus avoid, right? If you're avoiding it, then you're not going to be able to transform it. The only way to transform something is to approach it. First place and probably the safest place is definitely a journal, right? Doing it by yourself unless you feel like you want someone to just guide you through it. You can go to a therapist or a friend, but at some point you have to approach the

• 48:32Speaker 00

  experience and unleash it, right? Um, but you can do it. There's, there's, there's literally prompts we take people through in the book, but one is, is just what is the experience itself? What happened? Um, what about the experience actually is something you can use, right? What is something you can gain from this experience? What is something you can learn from it that you didn't know before? What's something now that you, how does it clarify for you what you want in the future? What is, how does it clarify what you don't want in the future? Um, what else can you have learned from this experience? A lot of it- Going back and reframing experiences is a lot like drafting a book. You know, I could, I could spend five minutes. You don't have to spend five hours on this. You could spend five minutes, just address an experience and say, what happened?

• 49:17Speaker 00

  What did I, you know, what, what, what did this teach me about life? Or what did this teach me about what I don't want? What are two or three lessons that I could get from this that can help me in the future? So that I can avoid that from happening again, or so that I can be better. Draft one, boom, I can do it again in a week. And you can just keep updating the meaning of the experience, keep updating the lessons, keep getting more out of it. But in, in psychology, we call this deliberate rumination. So there's obtrusive rumination, which is when you're avoiding an experience and all of a sudden, at some point, just some random thought triggers you. And now you're just filling in the dumps because, oh, I just got to remind why life sucks. Deliberate rumination is when you sit down and you look at an experience, you frame it.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  And, and what a lot of the research shows is, is that it's very helpful to apply gratitude to it. Proactive gratitude. Like I can proactively be grateful for this conversation, but I still need to be proactive about it. I could be grateful and stuff. And so you can proact, you can apply proactive gratitude even to that experience. I'm grateful for what I went through as a teen, when my dad went through all of his trauma and his addiction. I'm grateful that I went through that. Like I can directly apply gratitude to the experience and gratitude for what it led to and for gratitude. And so you, you can, you have to be conscious about gratitude. A lot of people think that gratitude only can occur because something you wanted to happen occurred or because something good happened.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  You can apply gratitude to anything and you want to do that with, with experiences and transforming experiences.

• 50:44Chris Williamson?

  How can people protect themselves from complacency when putting themselves in the game? I know that you're saying that

• 50:51Speaker 00

  You mean putting yourself in the game?

• 50:52Chris Williamson?

  Putting yourself in the game, yeah, sorry.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  It's such a good question and it's, it's, it's really the, um, the most immediate question that most people who don't apply this ask. Um, no, I'm serious and it's not, nothing against you. It's, it's literally when, when a high achiever, and this book is literally driven towards high achievers, which I know that anyone listening to your channel is someone who's ambitious. Is it, the first question is, my edge comes because I'm an, I, I've got a chip on my shoulder. Or my edge comes because I'm trying to get to this next level.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  Being in the game doesn't blunt your edge. Me measuring myself against my former self and actually just saying, you know, in the last Year and a half, I've published three books. We've sold hundreds of thousands of copies. I've had three, you know, had my last kid. Here's all the ways in which I've gained and all the progress I've made. Here's all my growth.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  Again, confidence is the byproduct of past performance. Confidence is actually the thing that helps your imagination think bigger thoughts. The more you actually live this, the bigger your ambitions are going to get. Because you're actually going to see your progress and you're going to value it. And that's going to actually give you a much firmer belief of what you can do. Chances are, the high achiever listening to this is actually, back to the view of future self. Their future self is actually probably smaller than it could be if they were in the game. If you're in the game, you're actually like, holy crap, look how far I've come. What could I do next? You know, like, literally, I mean, even just thinking about you, like, you've 10x your pot. You know, like, if you actually valued that and really took it seriously, you're in a fundamentally different place than your former self. You're far more capable than your former self.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  You're far more connected than your former self. You have a fundamentally different mental model and way of operating. You can way beyond what your former self did if you take seriously what got you here. So it doesn't really blunt your edge. It's weird. The only thing it blunts is the, is the kind of, the number one, it blunts you having any really opinions or worries about what anyone outside of you thinks about your progress. It frees you from that. Where it's like, you know, me in this conversation. If I hop off this podcast and then go into the gap, I'm like, dang, I really didn't explain myself really good. You know, like, you know, I started thinking about all the things I could have done better with this conversation. That's me worrying about other people. Right?

• 53:15Speaker 00

  That's me worrying about, if I'm in the game, I'm just thinking about, what did I learn from that? Or what did I get out of that? You know, so it frees you from that. It also just frees you from thinking you need that thing in order to be somewhere. You don't need it. No one needs it. You can have it if you want it. If Elon Musk wants to go to Mars, he can go to Mars. If he thinks he needs it because he's trying to fill some internal need.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  He's never gonna, he's never gonna get there. He's never gonna, he might accomplish Mars, but he never actually got what he wanted. Mars is just a means to some internal end for, for him.

• 53:48Chris Williamson?

  I think the interesting thing here is how society and culture puts success on such a pedestal that success can come at any cost and success still gets applauded. So Eddie Hall is a good example of this, world's strongest man a few years ago, British guy. And he says that he would have been divorced without access to his children and maybe dead if he hadn't won the world's strongest man the year that he did because he was six foot three and 200 and something kilos, probably on all manner of performance enhancing drugs, spending no time with his wife, being short with his kids. His life would have been wrecked. And yet, because he won world's strongest man and then decided to

• 54:29Chris Williamson?

  take a step back and now he's a great father and blah, blah, blah. People still want to put his success on a pedestal. They're prepared for someone to essentially completely annihilate their entire life in pursuit of one particular goal. And because we look at his life within this very narrow domain of competence within, was he good at being world's strongest man? Well, yeah, he, he became it briefly. But if we take a broader view, a more holistic view, which we can only do internally, we can't take a broader holistic view of someone else's life because we don't know phenomenologically just how much misery he would have been in to have known that his wife didn't really like him and known that his kids were sad because dad was being short with them.

• 55:11Chris Williamson?

  If you take that full holistic view of your own life, the shortcut should be, what is the thing that I can do that will give me the most satisfaction and happiness today in the moment? And again, I'm watching that Michael Jordan documentary, The Last Dance. My housemate put it on again last night and I'd seen it before and I started watching it again.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  I love it. I love that documentary. It's so fun.

• 55:31Chris Williamson?

  It's so sick. But even with that, there's, there's elements and echoes of some of the ways that Michael was, was motivated that are, they are romantic. You know, we do put those things up on a pedestal. Someone tells him that he can't do a thing or whatever, and he uses that motivation to fuel him. But you don't know how, well, you don't know the price that Michael Jordan had to pay to be Michael Jordan. You don't know the psychological turmoil that he went through in some of those situations, how much gap versus how much gain he was actually playing with.

• 56:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think that, um, I think, you know, obviously, Michael Jordan is an incredible athlete example.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  And again, back to again, the value of this conversation, it's not necessarily to help people become more successful. I think if Michael's in the game about his own past, he's happy. If he's in the gap about his own past, it doesn't matter if he got eight rings, right? It's literally between Michael and himself. It's between you and yourself. It's not about, it's not between you and Michael. Literally, it hasn't, you have nothing to do with Michael Jordan's progress. And so like, yeah, you can be motivated by Michael Jordan, and there's nothing wrong with being motivated by outside forces.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  But the real value of this conversation is how do you feel about yourself?

• 56:58Speaker 00

  You know, if your, if your happiness is tied to the future, you're never gonna get there.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  That's just kind of.

• 57:06Chris Williamson?

  Well, the other point, man, that we keep coming back to is what's the fucking point of success if it doesn't make you happy? What is the actual point of doing all of this stuff? If the end goal of that is immiseration between now, like, here's a genuine question that I've got in my head. Would I rather be unsuccessful by the standards of myself now or society and happy? Or successful and miserable? Would I rather be unsuccessful and happy or successful and miserable? And I'm aware that it's not a binary choice. I'm aware that you can actually be successful and happy.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Well, here's what's interesting. Derek Sivers actually gave a really good example of this. So Derek Sivers was on a, you know, on a Tim Ferriss podcast a long time ago, and he was talking about, you know, one of the prototypical questions that Tim would ask people is, who are three people you consider to be the most, who are the people you consider to be successful? Right? I don't know if you heard this conversation, or even just who's the number one person you consider to be successful? And what Derek did was, this was really interesting, but it tracks exactly what we're saying. He said, you know, the, the initial gut response would be someone like a Richard Branson, right? Someone who's externally successful. But what if Richard Branson's goal was not actually to be a successful entrepreneur? What if his true dream would have been to be a painter? You know?

• 58:24Speaker 00

  And in reality, he started all these businesses as kind of a form of like escape from his real goal, kind of like back to Pressfield talking about resistance. You know what I mean? Like, if we knew that Richard Branson's true dream was to be a painter, you know, what Sabre said was, is we could never consider him a success, like, because he wasn't being true to the person he really wanted to be. It doesn't matter all that he accomplished if he wasn't actually being what mattered most to him.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  Right? And so that kind of goes back to like, it really doesn't matter all of the things I do if what I really want is something else. If I, would I deepen my soul, want to be something else? It doesn't matter what that is in anyone else's estimations of success or in society's measure of success. But if I measure, if I achieve all of those measures of external success according to society, and I'm still not being who I truly want to be, I don't know if you could consider yourself a success. Right? Like, it doesn't matter what you accomplished if it wasn't what you genuinely wanted to do or believed in for yourself. It doesn't matter all of the externals, you know? I could write 50 more books.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  But if it's not what I actually really want or believe in, doesn't matter. Like, none of it really matters. You know what I mean? Like, at least for me, I couldn't consider myself a success unless I'm being true to what I value, what I believe in, but also if I'm measuring myself correctly, which is just against my former self and against my own self. There's really no one else. There's no one else that Ben Hardy is competing against. Like, literally, we're all playing our own game. Like, it has nothing to do with anyone else.

• 1:00:02Chris Williamson?

  Ben Hardy, ladies and gentlemen. People want to check out your stuff and keep up to date with what you're doing, where should they go?

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  Uh, just benjaminhardy.com. It's kind of just an update on, uh, books I'm writing, stuff like that.

• 1:00:15Chris Williamson?

  Gap in the Game will be linked in the show notes below. And you got another one out next year as well?

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  To next year. We got, uh-

• 1:00:21Chris Williamson?

  Serious.

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Chris Williamson?

  Serious workload.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, but all my ambitions are blunted because I'm in the game, man. I'm just kidding. Yeah, so next year we have, uh, Be Your Future Self Now, which comes out, uh, in May. And then the next Dan Sullivan book in the series is called 10x is easier than 2x.

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  Which is true, but we but by the way, we decided not to write that book first because there's no reason to help people go 10x if they're going to stay in the gap the whole way. You know, why why help someone 10x their income or their podcast or whatever if they're going to just measure in the gap like there's no point. And so we were very deliberate to write the gap in the game before 10x just because if someone's in the gap, there's really no, there's no value in encouraging someone to go 10x if they're going to stay in the gap about it. I love it, man. Until next time. Brother.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company for me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death. That's what.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under 17. Under