Survivors Speak Out: Taking On the ‘Epstein Class’

It’s been more than a month since the Justice Department released the latest tranche of files related to its investigation of Jeffrey Epstein — around 3 million in total — yet the fallout shows no sign of slowing down. The release almost certainly wouldn’t have happened if it weren’t for survivors who fought for transparency and accountability. In this episode, Kara sits down with three women who're still in that fight: Dani Bensky, Jess Michaels and Liz Stein. Kara, Dani, Jess and Liz talk about how Epstein’s survivors came together after decades of being siloed, who’s helping them in their fight for justice, and who’s standing in the way. They also talk about what the files reveal about the “Epstein Class” and what they says about how power works in this country. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This has really permeated every single area

• 0:05Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  of society, from the medical industry, the entertainment industry, the arts industry, academia.

• 0:10Kara Swisher?

  Tech.

• 0:11Speaker 00

  Banking and financing, politics, literally everywhere. And powerful people are protected.

• 0:29Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, I have a really important episode, important to me, and it should be important to you. I'm talking with three survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse, who are fighting for transparency and accountability. Danielle Bensky, Jess Michaels, and Liz Stein. This is a critically important story. It's about a lot of things. At the heart, it's about a crime. It's about a sex crime. It's about sex trafficking. It's about the abuse of power. It's about the abuse of young women. It's about misogyny. It's about power in America and how it is used and abused. It's a critically important issue, and it's at the heart of so much that's going on today. I know people have read and listened to a lot about the Epstein files.

• 1:12Kara Swisher?

  A lot of it has gotten sucked into conspiracy. But at the heart of it is about the women who were abused at young ages by Jeffrey Epstein and the repercussions of it, and people who were involved that have gotten off. No one has been exonerated here. Let me be clear. I don't care what President Trump says. They haven't been properly investigated, and these women and so many others deserve that. A note to our listeners, we don't normally explain the booking process for On, but this episode is all about transparency. We are connected by someone I've covered a lot in the tech industry to a communications strategist who has worked with World Without Exploitation, a coalition that fights human

• 1:52Kara Swisher?

  trafficking and sexual exploitation, that has also been working directly with Epstein survivors. The strategist introduced us to Danny, Jess, and Liz. The reason I need to tell you this is because the initial connection was made by Reid Hoffman, a well-known Silicon Valley investor. An entrepreneur whom I have known for decades. This is relevant because Hoffman knew Jeffrey Epstein, which was evidenced by numerous emails between them in the recent release of the Epstein files. Hoffman hasn't been accused of any crimes. He's also expressed regret over any engagement with Epstein. To be clear, none of the Epstein survivors interviewed by me here had any knowledge of Hoffman's connection with the booking.

• 2:36Kara Swisher?

  And Hoffman had absolutely no influence on the interview, as it should be. But we always err on the side of full disclosure to our audience. All right, let's get to my conversation with Danny, Jess and Liz. The focus absolutely needs to be on the Epstein survivors. It's a powerful show. It's a long one and it's worth listening to. So please stick around.

• 3:06Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness and more. And The Guardian, not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 3:50Speaker 02

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• 4:20Speaker 03

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• 5:07Kara Swisher?

  Dani, Jess, and Liz, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having us.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having us.

• 5:12Kara Swisher?

  Thanks for having us. To start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, how you ended up in Epstein's orbit, and how old you were at the time? Just tell your story, essentially. First Jess, then Liz, then Dani.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  My name is Jess Michaels, and I'm a 1991 Jeffrey Epstein survivor. I was 22 years old when he raped me. I'm the earliest publicly known survivor that's out there advocating, but I'm not the earliest survivor.

• 5:38Kara Swisher?

  Okay. And what do you do now? What do you do in your life today?

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Thank you for asking. I've actually created Sexual Assault First Aid, and I have put it into an app called the With You To app, and it teaches young people to know what to do when someone says me to.

• 5:54Kara Swisher?

  Okay. All right. Next, Liz.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  My name is Liz Stein. I was 21 years old in 1994 and a senior in college when I met Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. I am now a human trafficking specialist and a survivor advocate in the National Anti-Trafficking Movement.

• 6:13Kara Swisher?

  Oh, great. Okay. Dani?

• 6:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I was 17 years old in 2004, and I was in Jeffrey's orbit 2004 to 2005.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  And I was a ballerina then. Now I am a dance educator and a choreographer. And I work for Disney Theatrical Group and I work a lot with kids. Age ranges between 15 and 19, but like the sweet spot is really 17 and 19. So around the time that I was abused by Jeffrey as well.

• 6:44Kara Swisher?

  Let's talk a little bit first about what compelled you not just to come forward with your stories of abuse, but also to do so publicly. I've covered this issue many times in different ways in Silicon Valley and elsewhere with powerful men. But what compelled each of you to come forward? And again, publicly is a big move by women. I know this. Let's start with Jess, then Liz, then Dani.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, back in 2018, when I read Julie K. Brown's article, The Perversion of Justice, it was the first time I saw his face in 27 years. It was the first time I realized that I wasn't the only one because all that time I thought he had only ever raped me. When I heard those first four women come out, Virginia, Courtney, Shante, and Michelle, it was life changing for me. And at the time, I was actually working for one of the Sandy Hook Foundations and I was teaching young people to stand up for other people in circumstances where they couldn't stand up for themselves. And there came a point where I couldn't continue to teach young people this

• 7:46Speaker 00

  if I wasn't willing to do it myself in my own circumstance. So that's what led me to start, start speaking out. And obviously, we had a wonderful example with Virginia Roberts Giuffre. And when I saw her being able to do that, I believed it was possible.

• 8:05Kara Swisher?

  So it was just seeing that story and, and understanding you weren't alone, right? Obviously.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Understanding, because we always think we're alone. That's a big.

• 8:12Kara Swisher?

  That's the whole point.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  The whole point is the silence and the isolation.

• 8:16Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm. Liz?

• 8:19Speaker 04

  When I met Epstein and Maxwell, I looked like I had a really bright future ahead of me. And after meeting them, the trajectory of my life completely changed and it looked nothing like what I had expected.

• 8:31Kara Swisher?

  Uh huh.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  And so for decades, I lived with this enormous amount of shame and guilt and kind of this failure to thrive and feeling like I didn't exactly fit in with my peers. And that was a big burden to carry. And so when Epstein was arrested-

• 8:50Kara Swisher?

  Is that because of shame or that, obviously the abuse itself, but what led to you feeling that way?

• 8:57Speaker 04

  I think that the way that we view survivors, it's detrimental to survivors. We don't necessarily know what we're looking at when we see survivors of sexual assault. The way that this manifests in women's lives is through, you know, interpersonal relationship difficulties. A lot of times you see substance abuse issues. You see really just people who are not able to thrive like others. And a lot of times we look at these women and we stigmatize them and we say, you know, well, what's wrong with her? Why can't she do this? Or why isn't she performing the way that we expect her to?

• 9:41Speaker 04

  And so the guilt is put on the survivor of the crime. And it's not, we're not looking at, well, why is her behavior like this? Why did someone, in my case at least, why did someone who had such a bright, promising future, someone who was so good with people, how did that person turn into someone who was in and out of behavioral health hospitals, in and out of therapy, unable to hold a job, unable to have interpersonal relationships? And it was trauma. And I will tell you that I really lived with that for a long time

• 10:22Speaker 04

  until someone looked at me and said, you're not crazy, you have trauma. When that happened, it was treatable.

• 10:30Kara Swisher?

  Right, and you were able to speak out.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, because a lot of people, when they're in situations like this, it's always like, why can't you get over it?

• 10:38Speaker 04

  It's the identification of what the problem is. You know, doctors were saying, you have this, you have that. Nothing ever seemed to fit. No one said you have trauma until, you know, 20 years ago. And when that happened, when someone tried to understand what was going on with me, instead of, you know, labeling me with different diagnoses, that was when healing began.

• 11:03Kara Swisher?

  Right. Dani?

• 11:04Speaker 05

  The PTSD is absolutely real. It's so well said, Liz. For me, coming forward, it was, you know, I teach kids, I teach dancers. And I was working at a private school, a prep school in Brooklyn. And I was listening to a group of dancers talk about parties that they had been to. And there was a mansion that one of them had gone to and nothing, nothing happened, thank goodness. But just hearing them talk, I just realized that the world needs to be a much safer place for these kids. Because, you know, things like this are still happening. And if we don't get to the core of it and we don't, you know,

• 11:49Speaker 05

  the powerful people that are in positions of power are going to stay there unless we do something about it. You know, so I think that that was just something that felt like we need to make sure that the right people are in those positions of power, right?

• 12:01Kara Swisher?

  Did you think about the repercussion, the price on yourself that it would cost?

• 12:06Speaker 05

  Well, when I came forward, it was 2021 and I had no intention of coming forward, actually. I had gone to the courthouse for Ghislaine Maxwell's hearing, really just to thank my lawyer, Sigrid McCauley. I had never met her in person and we had always, you know, it was during the pandemic. And so we had always talked over Zoom, but I really wanted to just like have that face-to-face connection and interaction with her. And so I had gone to the courthouse that day, you know, and, and as I was standing in a hallway talking to her, she talked to me about community and Um, I had said that, you know, I watched the Jeffrey Epstein filthy rich. And I had seen Maria Farmer's story and I remember feeling like,

• 12:50Speaker 05

  wow, if she could have been victimized, I could be victimized too. And I was able to sit with it differently because she was an artist and she was, you know, so talented. And I felt like, um, wow, that level, like she talked a little bit about this association and about how like, it changed the way she created art. And I saw myself in that. So I talked to Sigrid for a moment about that. And then we talked about Virginia Giuffre and, um, you know, just really seeing myself in Virginia and thinking about how she turned this shame into power. And I felt to myself like, wow, I hope that I could be brave enough to do that one day, you know? And, um, so we left the courthouse, media everywhere. And I was, um, you know, I was masked because we were just off of the pandemic.

• 13:35Speaker 05

  And everybody's screaming, Virginia, Virginia, Virginia, because I'm blonde, right? And so I was walking out. Um, and she had said, no, you know, this isn't Virginia. Um, but they said, do you want to give a statement? And they were like, you know, are you an Epstein survivor? I said, yes. Um, so I gave my first statement. Um, but they didn't know my name. And so then they followed us for blocks. I mean, just like, people falling into the street was like nothing I'd ever experienced.

• 13:58Kara Swisher?

  Wow.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Um, until finally, I just, I felt this immense responsibility, um, to other survivors to say my name. And, um, I did. And then nothing for quite some time. And then all of this came up again, um, really this July. And so, um, yeah, I think there, there is a price to being public about all of this. Um, but there are Jane Does that I know that can't come forward. Um, and I feel like it's, it is our duty in a way, like it just feels like there's this big responsibility to keep, to keep making change.

• 14:33Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely. Uh, Jess, what is the price each of you have paid? I'm curious.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  So for for me, living with post-traumatic stress disorder now, going on 35 years, I had severe physical debilitation. When your body lives in survival mode for a very long time, the nervous system affects every single system, your digestion, your immune system, your cardiovascular system, your endocrine system, to a point where I was bedridden for two years, physically incapacitated. And it was actually that article in 2018 that's one of the things that kind of, I joke around, like, raised me from the dead.

• 15:11Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Like, I actually found some hope in there and found a great doctor. But what happens for me is that my capacity is really limited. When I'm doing these, so much media, and I wouldn't change it, I want to be really clear, there's nothing I would change about what I'm doing, what we are doing together, and the voice that is now happening collectively around this issue. And sometimes I am stuck in bed for days.

• 15:40Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it definitely takes it out of you. What about you, Liz?

• 15:44Speaker 04

  I would agree with all the things that Jess just described. You know, it's two sides of the coin for me. There is a great physical and emotional cost to me, absolutely. You know, there are days when we're just in bed and that's it. But the reason that I'm doing this is because I couldn't talk about this. I couldn't talk about this for so long. I am also, like many other survivors, a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. And it was just, for me, decades and decades and decades of not being able to talk about it.

• 16:21Kara Swisher?

  Speak about it, yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  And we are in this position of visibility, and we would be remiss if we did not use it to change the narrative and to do better. And so for me, You know, the cost of this is worth it. If I am able to change the narrative for even just one person who is experiencing this, if I can open someone's eyes as to what they're looking at, really, I just, I'm gonna go back to what I was talking about earlier. If people understood that what was going on with me was trauma, my life would have looked very differently. And so that's why education is so important.

• 17:02Kara Swisher?

  All right, Danny?

• 17:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I think the shame was really great for me for a long time. You know, I, at one point, Jeffrey had said to me, I turned eighteen while I was there, right? So I was between seventeen and eighteen. And so when I turned eighteen, he had said to me, well, now you can be brought up on prostitution charges, right? So you better not tell anybody. And I believed him, you know, when he spoke, I believed. And so, you know, that sat with me for years of like, don't say anything, you know? And then in two thousand eight, I was subpoenaed to talk to the FBI. And a friend of mine said, you know, you can't, you can't talk to them because, you know, Jeffrey threatened me and he's gonna threaten you too. So they were like, it's twofold.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  It's the threats that are real. And then there's the threat like that you feel in your body. And that is shame, right? And it sits in the darkest places. And I just think that like having conversations already takes it out of the dark. And that's really important when I think about the teenagers that I work with. I think about like, if, you know, my friend and I were both there at the same time. And yet, and we knew that the other one was going, but we never ever talked about what happened there. And I think that this generation already is bold enough to say like, hey, this is a bad thing that's happening to me. Is it happening to you too? And already then go and tell an adult, right? Because we're having these conversations and we're opening the door.

• 18:26Kara Swisher?

  It matters a great deal.

• 18:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I mean, it doesn't, it's not to say that I still have, you know, I have nightmares regularly. And since I've been doing this work, I like walk the halls of the house in my sleep. Like my, my partner turned around and was like, are you okay? You're twitching and your eyes are going crazy, fluttering. Because it just lives in this place psychologically that, you know, when you start tapping back into it, it's very real.

• 18:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you're definitely paying a price. This is not even close. I don't know if you know this. I testified against a sexual harasser named John McLaughlin in a trial. And I was 20. It was 20 something years. I was not sexually assaulted. I was testifying on behalf of someone who was, who I witnessed. And they threatened me and threatened my career, actually. I was just a young reporter. And they said, if you do this, we're going to get you. And I then went on to use my name, my actual name, not a source said or source who saw it, because I felt like it was critically important for... People don't believe if they don't have a name attached to it. You know what I mean?

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, unfortunately, yes.

• 19:24Kara Swisher?

  And I remember being warned by, like, your career is going to be hurt by this powerful man. And I said, you know, and I did run into him later. And he said to me, it was, everyone stabbed me in the back and you stabbed me in the front, you know, because I went, I was so public and so everything. And I was in my 20s. And I said, anytime, you son of a bitch. And it was great, I have to say. And it didn't have a price. It didn't, I mean, the price was a good one. It was worth it. It was, and it was nothing like what you've been through, obviously.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I love what you just said. It was worth it. Like, when I expressed to you that at 22, you know, you're launching out into the world, you're still looking to adults to mentor you and to really find your way and to succeed. And when your, your identity and your sense of self and your voice gets shut down at those younger ages, it's really hard to find it again. And so, being able to speak now, I find I have a really difficult time shutting up.

• 20:22Kara Swisher?

  It's okay.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  I have to keep talking.

• 20:25Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  And I, I, I need to make sure my point is heard. And I, I've even allowed myself the, I was like, I'm gonna be messy, because there's a learning curve to having a voice at 57, you know, 35 years later. And, and that's okay with me.

• 20:53Kara Swisher?

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• 21:36Kara Swisher?

  climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness. Plus, The Guardian wants to emphasize they're not billionaire-owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube starting May 13.

• 21:56Speaker 02

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• 22:27Kara Swisher?

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• 23:33Kara Swisher?

  Let's talk about people who are trying to stop you still about the Trump administration's haphazard release of the files. It only did so after Congress forced its hand. There are possibly millions of more files still being withheld. And this week, the Department of Justice also acknowledged that tens of thousands of documents have been taken down for review. It says it plans to republish them. Danny and Liz, your names have appeared in the files unredacted. You already shared your stories publicly, but what went through your mind when you saw them there? Danny first.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  I mean, for me, it was just, it's a gutting feeling that like, you start shaking and feeling this, it is PTSD, classic PTSD. And what I was feeling was not necessarily even for myself. There was a Jane Doe that was in my 302, and her name was out. And it was somebody that's close to me that I had said, like, you know, you never have to worry about this because you've been redacted from the beginning. You've never come forward publicly. Like, you have nothing to worry about.

• 24:31Kara Swisher?

  Could you explain what a 302? I happen to know because I was with a bunch of lawyers last night, but what's a 302?

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, so your 302 is your statement that you gave to the FBI, right? So in 2008, when I was so scared, I talked to the FBI and it was actually, it's not, you know, I was so scared. And so it's not exactly the most illuminating piece, but I did mention names, right? And so in that FBI report, you know, there were a couple of names in there that were not redacted. And so... Um, we were looking at a scared, you know, twenty year olds reporting on something that happened before they were ready to talk about it, to be honest. Um, and then you're adding names in there. And so now that piece is out there for everybody to see.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  And it just feels really unfair because it was, it was never meant to be, you know, public. Or those people were never meant to be.

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Right, no, it was supposed to have been part of an investigation.

• 25:31Speaker 05

  So I just think, um, yeah, I, I also, my, my dog was redacted, but my name and my information was not. And so I think that that is like the most classic look of, um, just the sloppiness of it all and just the carelessness of it. Because I had my MySpace page and they literally blocked out my dog. Um, but then like my name.

• 25:53Speaker 04

  Well, your dog didn't need that trauma, but go ahead.

• 25:55Speaker 05

  No.

• 25:56Speaker 04

  I'm teasing, teasing you. Um, what about you, Liz? So, you know, for me, I was just kind of blown away at the incompetence. My information was unredacted in a sentence that said Stein was a victim of Epstein and Maxwell. So that, you know, that was just kind of mind blowing. But zooming out and looking at the bigger picture, there are a lot of ways that you can threaten and intimidate a survivor, right? Yeah. And it felt like in exposing people's personal information, you see us and you see us at press conferences and you see us speaking out and I know that we look really strong. We are really strong, right? But it takes, it takes a toll on us.

• 26:41Speaker 04

  And think about these women who for three decades have not been able to really grapple with what happened to them and have kept it inside. And now their friends and family are reading their name, their information, things that you might have said in a deposition, things that you might have said in your three oh two that you never, ever expected. Anyone to hear the most intimate details of your life are out there for everyone to see. And that's, that's a way to intimidate. That's a way to make, to make it so people don't feel like they are safe coming forward because, you know, everything that you're promised, that you'll be protected.

• 27:23Kara Swisher?

  Just went out the window. Yeah, absolutely. Jess, in an interview with the Times of London, you said the release of the document feels, quote, "purposely chaotic, like it's meant to mess with your head." Expounding this, as we said, there's millions of files. In some way, chaos was unavoidable, obviously. We talk about what the Justice Department might have done to release these files in a way that better helps the public understand what's in them and the scope of the crimes.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yes, and just to clarify, I'm not a lawyer.

• 27:48Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  But as I understand it, this redaction for a case is a really common and simple skill.

• 27:57Kara Swisher?

  It is.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  And millions of files being sent from, say, a prosecution or to a defense or defense prosecution when files are shared, a tactic that is used, as I understand it, is to make them as chaotic and send as many files as you can through. So it makes it very difficult for people to go through. So they seem to be following what is typically done when you're trying to thwart an investigation or a trial. And that's really hard to look past as, oh, it was just innocently done.

• 28:36Kara Swisher?

  There were so many.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  There were so many, and yet such a short period of time. But a couple of things happened. One of the things we've heard from Congress members is when they've gone to look at the redacted files, they found that the supposed unredacted files were redacted by the FBI and the DOJ never let anyone know and never had those files cleared of redaction so that they truly were unredacted when Congress wanted to look at them. And that feels purposeful. And so, you know, one of the things we have talked about is that they've miscategorized things, and that feels really-

• 29:14Kara Swisher?

  They're trying to get you to lose them.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:16Kara Swisher?

  That happened during the Japanese internment thing. They put them different places.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:20Kara Swisher?

  So you couldn't find the files.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Exactly. So they didn't make sense. So it was very purposeful in being chaotic. And, yeah, that feels like intimidation. That feels like a lack of transparency. That feels- Corrupt like we're really trying to keep this cover up going and delaying transparency as long as absolutely possible.

• 29:42Kara Swisher?

  To create a mess. I'd love to know, how are you able to find documents related to you? I mean, I searched myself and there were two mentions. He'd been reading my articles and in one case, one of a conference I had, we bought a list and he must have been on it. And so he got sent something. Luckily, I went back and checked and he tried to get into my conference because he was very up and with the tech people all the time, as you know. And on the, on the thing, it says Kara says absolutely not, like not letting them in. But how did you find yourselves? Let's start with you Danielle and then Liz and then Jess.

• 30:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, for me, I mean, initially I searched my name and then a bunch of stuff came up, which was crazy because I was like, oh, nothing is going to be here. But of course there was. So there was that. And then once they started redacting, you know, they put everything up and then they took everything down, like as far as my things related to me went. So I called my lawyers and everything's gone. I don't know where, you know, why it went. I had the EFTA numbers and she said, well, they're pulling everything down to redact everything now. And I was like, hmm, a little late for that, but here we are, we're doing it.

• 30:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, because people could have gotten them.

• 30:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, which also feels a little bit like.

• 30:53Kara Swisher?

  People instantly downloaded the whole thing. Lots of people did that.

• 30:56Speaker 05

  Yes, but also like, what else are they pulling down? Was this all part of the plan, right? To like not redact survivors to have to be able to pull everything down so that we didn't know what was missing and then put everything back up, right? And so anyway, when, when I was told that things were coming back online, I knew that there's, there's an ID number. Actually, I don't exactly, I have it written down somewhere, but it has like your, your number and then it's like a point two, five or whatever, unless you were a part of a trial and you gave testimony and then you have like a full number. So somebody that's an legal analyst who actually works for MS Now, you know, told me that this was, was there and I think I found you and is this your file? So she gave me that information.

• 31:39Speaker 05

  So at least I was able to find the majority of my file there.

• 31:43Kara Swisher?

  And all of them are there from what you can understand?

• 31:45Speaker 05

  Um, you know, okay, so I was looking for my 2019. In 2019, the FBI came to my house and we spoke for hours. It was like almost two hours.

• 32:00Speaker 05

  And I remember talking quite a bit about just what had happened, but nobody said like, can you give an official statement? And they just kept asking me sort of about who I knew and about different names. And I felt like I gave them a lot more information. It's basically one paragraph that is written up in 2019. So that does not feel whole to me. So I am still curious if there's more out there. But again, with the mislabeling too, there's a manila envelope with my name on the side of it, and that is not redacted, my name, and it has, I believe, my birthday underneath it. And on the front of that manila envelope, it has nothing to do with my story. It's about Florida. Tony Figuera is mentioned in there, which is not my story at all.

• 32:44Speaker 05

  So I'm like, so whose notes are on my file? You know, so there's just mislabeling. It's a disaster.

• 32:50Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, so it's a disaster. It's a chaotic disaster. All right, Liz?

• 32:53Speaker 04

  So I also just put in search terms that I thought would bring something up. And I found the information from the Maxwell trial that involved me. And I also found my FBI intake form. That's really all of the information that I've found. I called the FBI and the FBI did an intake form on me, but they never contacted me to do a victim statement. So that's, you know, that's something that, to me, is just really glaring. They have this intake from me saying that I'm a victim of this crime, yet they never followed up with me.

• 33:28Kara Swisher?

  Followed up. That's happens a lot. That happens a lot in general, but in this case, it seems like they dropped the ball a lot. We'll get to that in a minute. What about you, Jess?

• 33:36Speaker 00

  So the very first file, which was the email between me and especially Amanda Young, was found by a journalist, and the journalist reached out and said, I think this is you. And they were correct. But then the second round of files that were found, someone...

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Publicly, and it is public, so, you know, it should be fine. Said, hey, I heard you on a podcast and I think this file is yours and put the EFTA number out there publicly. And so I went and yes, it was. And then they found other files for me and DM'd me and they've been the only ones to actually find them. And there's files missing. So it took a year and a half after I gave my information on the hotline tip in September of 2019. The first response that I got was from Detective Harkins, who had called me back after the hotline tip.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  I told him what happened and he said, well, what do you want us to do? It was 30 years ago.

• 34:42Kara Swisher?

  Ah.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  And, yes. I said, well, you asked me to call you. That's why I'm calling you to tell you. And I was calling to tell him about my roommate, who was the person that had brought me to Epstein, because I knew that she had worked for him a minimum of eight to 10 years and obviously would be a person of interest. It would take a year and a half for Special Agent Mandy Young to actually ever call me back.

• 35:06Kara Swisher?

  So it's both incompetence and possible, all manner of things. So all of three of you were at the House Judiciary Committee hearing last month with Attorney General Pam Bondi. I want to play a little bit from that hearing, and this is an exchange between Bondi and Washington Democratic Representative Pramila Jayapal.

• 35:23Speaker 07

  Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your Department of Justice has put them through with the absolutely unacceptable release of the Epstein files and their information? Congresswoman, you sat before Merrick Garland, sat in this chair twice. Attorney General Bondi. Can I finish my answer? No, I'm going to reclaim my time because I asked you a specific question that I would like you to answer.

• 35:59Kara Swisher?

  This is the same woman who bragged about having the Epstein client list on her desk about a year ago, even though there's no evidence it exists. What's it been like to watch the Trump administration go from championing the release of these files to this, they campaigned on this issue, where Bondi can't even acknowledge you? Talk each of you about that moment. Dani, why don't you start?

• 36:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's whiplash, but I also think the re-traumatization is so great. It's exactly what Jeffrey did to us, and it's the same pattern, right? Where it always felt like, you know, he would hold the carrot, or at least for my story, he would hold the carrot in front of my nose always about, you're a ballet dancer, I know all the top people, I can introduce you to the most powerful people, and, or I can give you studio space, I can give you anything if you do these things for me, and then would turn around and treat you like trash after that, you know? After, my story includes, my mom had a brain tumor, and I had brought the scans to him,

• 36:59Speaker 05

  and after that moment that I brought brain scans to him, my abuse really rubbed up because he had said, he basically threatened me and said that he can help with her care, meaning, like, not paying for anything.

• 37:14Kara Swisher?

  He had a piece of information he could use.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  Exactly, he used the information against me. So, without going too deep into my backstory, because you can find it out there, but it is that using the information and the manipulation that is involved, you know, it is definitely, it feels like, you know, they had all this information on us, and then it's that, the feeling of like, feeling like a ghost again, right? Where I would walk through the halls of the house, and so many people would see me, and I would be there, but I never felt like I was a person, I felt like I was...

• 37:47Kara Swisher?

  Because she not turning around was like that, not even acknowledging you.

• 37:51Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly like that. I just felt like, you know, that image of just drifting through the house was so similar in the sense of like, she will not even turn around and acknowledge a survivor's existence. And so, just having that inhumane, just completely, there's just such a lack, profound lack of empathy and compassion, that it just feels like she's not even a human being.

• 38:17Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, well, that might be true. Jess?

• 38:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, when you were playing it, it really just hit me in the gut again. I think that sometimes when I'm in those rooms or we're in, you know, the house, I might disconnect a little bit because it's all really overwhelming. But what I, what I still can't get past is that no one was asking her to apologize for what Merrick Garland did.

• 38:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, no one was.

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Asking her to apologize for the damage that her Department of Justice did. And that should be a really simple thing to do, to even acknowledge that we were standing there. It was as if we didn't exist. And that is a, as Dani said, that is just the, the crux of the injury.

• 39:05Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm. Liz?

• 39:07Speaker 04

  For me, it was really upsetting, you know, as Dani and Jess just expressed, to sit there and for her to not react to us. But I let go of that moment of upset for a moment and I really just looked at it and I thought, wow, by her actions, she's telling everyone exactly who she is. And so in ways, I think that her reaction couldn't have been better because it was so telling that she could not even be human. And I think that we're seeing over and over and over again where our Department of Justice

• 39:44Speaker 04

  is, it feels like to me, Kara, it feels like they are trying to push a narrative despite the fact that it's false. But what we're seeing is that people see through that narrative. And so I think that the more they behave like this publicly, the more people are going to demand that.

• 40:12Kara Swisher?

  This all come out. That's correct. That's exactly what that photo did. I have to say, it had enormous impact. And, you know, her trying not to was so awkward and strange. It happens a lot at these congressional hearings. And a lot of Democrats are promising to investigate the Trump administration over the Epstein files. Obviously, politically expedient for them to say they will. And what the Representative Jayapal was doing was a very typical tactic, right? Turn around and say, you're sorry, it happened with Mark Zuckerberg and others around parents whose children had died because of issues around their bullying and things like that. But it's also incredibly effective, as you said. Now, one of the things, Liz, I know you said that it wasn't political, but lawmakers are political creatures, right?

• 40:55Kara Swisher?

  Talk about, do you think the people that are pushing for this genuinely care about survivors? Or is it a political thing? Maybe both? Could be with some and not others? I'd love each of you to sort of weigh in. Danielle, why don't you start?

• 41:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think it varies by person. I think we're having great conversations, you know, and I think a lot of the time, people see us in media, but they don't understand that there is a core group of us that are always in these Zoom calls and congressional meetings. And we are telling our stories. And I think it is because these are human stories. We're not, you know, these political pawns. We're not here to be pundits, right? Like, we are here to really tell our story and hope that it doesn't happen and perpetuate again.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's definitely both. And it really depends on who you're talking to. We have some lawmakers that have been just instrumental in really communicating with us, asking us what our thoughts are, what our feelings are. And we have had a lot of really important meetings with lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. We've seen a bit of a shift, and it's not with everyone, but we're now going into Republican lawmakers' offices, and they're listening to us. They're sitting down and they're really hearing us, I feel like, for the first time, really understanding what this story is. Because when you peel back what the headlines are,

• 42:25Speaker 04

  and you frame it in such a way that you make people understand that this is a crime, and it's a crime of sex trafficking. And we were girls and young women. And when you put it into language that people can understand and relate to, what if this was your daughter? What if this was a friend of yours, your aunt? And when you you take all of the emotion, the political emotion, out of it, and you ask people to look at it for what it is, then they understand the issue in a very different way. And so what we're starting to see with some Republican lawmakers is, we really hear you. We're understanding this issue in a way that we just did not understand it before.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  We want to support you, but... Or we're we're behind you 100% here in this call, but we're not sure how we feel about that publicly. What's the but? I think that

• 43:26Speaker 04

  people are reluctant to go up against this administration. I think that that's what the but is. Yeah, yeah, it starts with Donald, ends with Trump. You know, we're living in a country right now that is not the America that I grew up in. And the America that I grew up in, we crossed the aisle, we listened to each other, and we stood for what was right despite what our political parties were. And so when you say to someone, are you okay with girls and young women being sexually victimized? Is that all right with you? It changes the tone. Because you're not saying, um, do you believe Donald Trump? Or do you believe Bill Clinton?

• 44:10Speaker 04

  Or do you believe any of these men? Because they're men on both sides of the aisle. So it's you're not polarizing yourself politically. You're focusing on what you're looking at.

• 44:20Kara Swisher?

  What the actual thing was.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And how, you know, we wouldn't let this happen in our communities. We wouldn't let perpetrators of these crimes go free in our communities. So why are we doing that as a nation? And so dialing back the political emotion here is really important.

• 44:38Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely. Go ahead, Jess.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do think that it is being used politically. I do think people care about it as well. I do think it's both. Uh, and I, I think there's an opportunity here that politicians are jumping on because this is the one bipartisan issue that has come up in the country in the last 10 years that, that everyone can agree upon. I mean, we got an act of Congress. It wasn't just Congress that pushed that act through. It was us. It was us advocating in rooms, uh, with Republicans, with Democrats to get everyone on the same page. We worked really hard to help get that law passed. And, and I think that this administration, if you were to ask me where I think the, the

• 45:24Speaker 00

  big error that's going to be made is that sexual harm happens in every single school, in every single community, in every single state, and, and, and at volumes in this country that, that this administration doesn't even believe. And so I believe that this issue will sneak up on the administration, that there are many more people that haven't necessarily voiced their opinion about it, even though we have a ton of support on both sides. Uh, I, I think that this administration is going to be shocked.

• 45:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, of course.

• 45:58Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 46:07Speaker 08

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• 48:47Kara Swisher?

  Let's talk a little bit more about how you've been personally navigating the release of the Epstein files. Two congressmen were part of getting these files released, California Democrat Ro Khanna and Kentucky Republican Thomas Massey. Two extraordinarily different people, I have to tell you. I know Ro quite well for many years. I don't know Massey, but certainly couldn't be more different. Talk about very briefly, who else is helping, would you say, getting accountability? Because accountability is the critical element here, as you all noted. And of course, internationally, the fallout has been even bigger. They're actually doing something about it. We've seen high-profile resignations, investigations, I assume, will go on.

• 49:28Kara Swisher?

  Danny, you said that the US, as you noted, didn't feel like it was taken seriously. So who is helping and who is hindering, from your point of view? Let's start with Danny.

• 49:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think, I mean, the Democratic Women's Caucus has been extraordinary for us. I think there are almost too many to name, but Melanie Stansbury has been amazing on this topic from the very beginning. From the get-go, I was at the House Oversight Committee in September, and there were six of us in that room. And for the first time, I shared my story along with so many others. Um, and she had come to Annie Farmer and I after and just um looked us dead in the face and said, this is a cover up and we're going to fix this. We're going to figure this one out. And I believed her. She's just the most um genuine, you know. So she's been amazing, but Robert Garcia, I mean, it's like so many to name. Um, and there are Republicans that

• 50:19Speaker 05

  are, we're in Republican offices all the time. And um, I think we're having amazing conversations in those Republican offices, you know, and we um, we're recently in Kat Kimmich's office, and we've been um, we've spoken to Joni Ernst, right? There are Republicans that we, we leave feeling like, wow, we were so seen. And then there's really no follow through. And that feels so frustrating, right? When we were at Kat Kimmich's office, we um, were talking about, it was the day before the Bondi hearing, and um, we did a press conference that was hosted by the Democratic Women's Caucus. And we said to Kat Kimmich, who is the uh, head of the Republican Women's Caucus, can you please talk to your constituents and come

• 51:04Speaker 05

  and stand with us? Because it's about women. It's not, and not just about women, it's about survivors, right? Um, but in that moment, we were like, can you just talk to your constituents and please, you know, stand in solidarity with us? And the only Republican that showed up was Nancy Mace. And so it's like, where is the disconnect? Where are we not um, having that sort of just follow through from them? So that feels a little disheartening. Um, but of course, Thomas Mas has been incredible for us. And Nancy Mace has been amazing. So. I would note Ernst as a sexual assault, a survivor in Mace also. Um, Liz?

• 51:42Speaker 04

  Um, you know, I want to touch on something Jeff said earlier about how we were able to get the Epstein Files Transparency Act to pass. Um.

• 51:52Speaker 04

  That was something that no one ever thought that we would ever be able to do. And the only way that we were able to do it is because constituents reached out to their representatives and they spoke. And that's how our government works. So that's how it's supposed to work.

• 52:08Kara Swisher?

  Right, so citizens.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  Citizens, right? You know, I think that a lot of people out there might be sitting, listening to this story and feeling powerless, not knowing what they can do to help. And really, what you can do is you can call your lawmakers and let them know how you feel about this issue because they're in office because of you.

• 52:29Kara Swisher?

  Sometimes they don't act that way.

• 52:30Speaker 04

  No, they don't. But I think that, I think that we need to remind ourselves of that right now in our country.

• 52:36Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely, 100%. Jess?

• 52:40Speaker 00

  That's actually a complicated question because I, I'm, though I believe that we are getting as much support as we possibly can from the Democratic Women's Caucus, from people like Robert Garcia, from the rep who invited me to the State of the Union, Representative Wauken Shaw, who had the best answer for why, as a guy, he was getting involved in this that I had heard. And he said, "Look, I've worked a long time in gender-based violence and what I see often is women doing all of the work. Women shouldering the complete burden of this issue." And he said, "I wanted to jump in and I want to support, not because, because I want to center myself, because I want to lift some of that burden."

• 53:25Speaker 00

  It was one of the best answers that I had heard. So we do have people that are in there that are really trying. And it's 60, probably over 70 days past the deadline. And I'm kind of a, like, all right, why aren't we suing Congress? Why hasn't Pam Bondi been impeached? Where are the consequences for them not meeting the deadline? That wasn't when things were supposed to start. That was supposed to be the deadline. And there was zero communication about that.

• 53:54Kara Swisher?

  Well, I think that's the point. Who's going to stop them?

• 53:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, who's going to stop them? And I think once that line was crossed and nothing happened.

• 54:01Speaker 05

  I believe that it set a very bad precedent.

• 54:05Kara Swisher?

  And I do, this is an administration who crosses lines, then sees nobody stops them, and then just stays there. And that shows the weakness of our government in a lot of ways. So amid all the redactions in the Epstein files, there have been a lot of calls for survivors to name Epstein's co-conspirators. Liz, what do you make of those calls?

• 54:22Speaker 04

  I think it's important to remember that it's not our job to release names of people. That could put us in a lot of danger physically, danger of legal repercussions. But we have told our lawyers, right? And I think that if these crimes are ever going to be investigated seriously, it needs to be done in collaboration with our attorneys who have this information. It's just, it's such an enormous weight to put on the burden, to put that burden on the shoulders of survivors. And it's just, it's impractical. And in any other case, we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be saying, you know, the survivors

• 55:07Speaker 04

  of these crimes need to name the perpetrators of these crimes publicly. I mean, you know, publicly.

• 55:13Speaker 05

  I mean, we have a Department of Justice for a reason. It shouldn't be on the survivors.

• 55:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, the problem is some of the, there's NDAs involved, there's all kinds of things that, in order to get testimony, but there are, what people don't understand, and I think actually the New York Times just did a great piece about the doctors around it, the lawyers around it, the people that enabled it happening. And it's always, you know, we tend to try to isolate Epstein as a single impresario of everything, but there were people helping him, bankers, all kinds of people, which I think are critical to name, or to at least understand, people understand.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  But they are named, they're in the files. And that was the point of the files being unredacted, and yet those names are often being protected. And so what we need is people to start putting pressure on the DOJ rather than pressure on survivors. Like Maria did this in 1996. There have been multiple times that this case should have been investigated, that more arrests should have been made, and it's not for lack of survivors coming forward.

• 56:14Kara Swisher?

  Yep, absolutely. It shouldn't be your burden whatsoever. It should be, and these, you know, these enablers in many ways have gotten off and have been as dam, not as damaging as Jeffrey Epstein, but in that same thing. I had one of the people helping this guy. Who had threatened me when I was in my twenties, come up to me at a party when I was very six, recently, relatively, a couple of years ago, and said, I hope you can forgive me. And I said, I just can't. And I said, you need to move away from me right now. And they're like, well, forgiveness is really important. I said, I know, but I'm not going to be doing that for you. So, good luck. And I said, you're a terror. I said, you scared a 20-year-old girl into, tried to scare into silence, and you can fuck, fuck all the way

• 56:56Kara Swisher?

  off, as far as I'm concerned. But never paid, never paid, too, at the same time, which was really disappointing. It was a woman, too, which was just horrible. Let's end by talking about where things go from here, and look at the big picture. The crimes committed against you and countless other women have exposed this so-called Epstein class. Many of the richest and most powerful people in the world turned to Epstein for access to women he trafficked, or they turned a blind eye. That's also the case, to his crimes, and accepted money and connections, or just social, you know, social parties, dinners, and everything else. Danny, broaden this out for us, because there's been a lot of comparisons to the Epstein files and the 2008 financial crisis, where millions of Americans lost

• 57:39Kara Swisher?

  their homes, while the banks got bailed out, like, the same idea. Talk about the way the files reveal how power works in this country, because, you know, I think it's very much linked to a lot of different things, you know, whether the tech moguls taking over things and making decisions for the rest of us, etc., or the attempts to make us feel powerless, and that some people get theirs and others do not. Danny, why don't you start, and then the others can chime in?

• 58:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's always power versus vulnerability, right? It's at the heart of all exploitation. And so, when we are these young girls in this country, it's very easy for a powerful person, I think, especially if you've had any sort of grooming in your background, where you've been groomed to be a people pleaser, groomed to always strive for perfection, it's, it's easy to walk into a trap. And I think that we really need to get to the core of the power structure, you know, because power protects power. And so, we have to find a way to, you know, just make sure it's the right people that are at the top.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  One of the things that I have noted in the minimal amount of files that I've gone through and what I've read from others online is that this has really permeated every single area of society, from the medical industry, the entertainment industry, the arts industry, academia, banking and financing, politics, literally everywhere. And just like Danny said, powerful people are protected.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  I think that that has been a secret. And what I hope is that the, one of the levels of transparency that happened is that how that is kept secret is revealed, because we're seeing it now. It's not a secret. People are talking about it. And I do hope, in one of my areas of hope, that is that transparency,

• 59:45Speaker 00

  the transparency of everything that's come before us, like everything that's happened up to now to show those files, is what's going to change that, that level of secret protection.

• 59:54Kara Swisher?

  Instead of people saying, oh, the rich get off, kind of stuff.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:58Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Liz?

• 59:59Speaker 04

  We're used to seeing powerful people protect each other. And I think that the only way that we change things that live in darkness is by bringing them out into the light. And I think that now this is on display for everyone to see. You know, I think that 10 years ago, if we talked about what our experiences were, people would have brushed us off and thought that we were, that we were crazy. And, you know, all of those, all of those stigmatizing stereotypes that people throw on us. But now we're seeing it. And so now that we're seeing it right in front of us, what are we going to do about it? We have the chance to change the narrative here.

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  We have a chance to hold people accountable in various ways, whether it's losing their positions of power, whether it's legal repercussions. We have the opportunity to change what this looks like for the future. And I really hope. That we take that opportunity when we seize it because we need to change this narrative.

• 1:01:03Kara Swisher?

  100%. I think one of the things my other podcast says is the rich are protected by the law but not bound by it and everybody else is bound by the law but not protected by it, which is really absolutely true. And Epstein was very deep into tech. He was around at all these events. I never met him, but he was there and he was funding things just to insidiously involve himself in academics or technology and tried very hard to get sort of made whole after his first bout with the law where he got off rather easily. So he was trying to reestablish his reputation. And in that vein, every episode, we get a

• 1:01:45Kara Swisher?

  question from an outside expert and yours actually comes from Julie Kay Brown, an investigative reporter at the Miami Herald who helped expose the extent of Epstein's crimes with her incredibly groundbreaking piece much later about the first conviction. So let's listen to what Julie has to ask you.

• 1:02:01Speaker 10

  Hi there, everybody. My question to you is Donald Trump has frequently said of late that he believes that he has been exonerated as far as these files are concerned. And I was wondering what your thoughts are about him being exonerated?

• 1:02:21Kara Swisher?

  Okay, Jess, then Liz, then Danny?

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  Well, we know that the president speaks in broad gaslighting strokes and throws words out that don't necessarily equate to anything that's actually happening. And so interestingly, gave no proof of any of that at all. And there is plenty of instances in there. I am one of the survivors and I think we're on agreement that he is in there enough times he should be testifying and there should be investigations.

• 1:02:58Kara Swisher?

  He should be investigated. He's not exonerated.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Clearly.

• 1:03:00Kara Swisher?

  He hasn't been investigated.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  He's not exonerated. As a matter of fact, we have way more questions than answers now and he needs to be part of that investigation.

• 1:03:09Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely. Liz?

• 1:03:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, in no way has Donald Trump been exonerated by this. We haven't exonerated anyone. And that's why these investigations are so important. Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein really needs to be looked at under a microscope. And he needs to be questioned, just like any other one else, anyone else is being questioned right now about what he knows about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes.

• 1:03:38Kara Swisher?

  Right, absolutely. Everyone deserves the right to be investigated properly so that they can be exonerated if they are in fact not guilty. Danny?

• 1:03:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, everything that everybody already said, but I mean, it has to move through a process. It has to move through a legal channel. So this idea of being exonerated, we would love for him to go and be investigated and move through a legal process, you know? Do I think that he'll be exonerated? I don't know. But, you know, I think that we really need to see, we've been saying, we need to see the investigations, but we also need to stop putting survivors in places where, you know, I think part of this conversation of exoneration came up when many of us were in a room and they said, raise your hand if Donald Trump has ever done anything to you. And it's like, the safety of that is so, is beyond lacking.

• 1:04:31Speaker 05

  And of course, nobody in their right mind is going to raise their hand in a situation like that. That's why we need the files released and investigated. So, yeah, no, nobody's been exonerated.

• 1:04:41Kara Swisher?

  Nobody's been exonerated. That's absolutely because it hasn't been properly investigated. The three of you, speaking of which, have been advocating for the passage of Virginia's law. This is proposed legislation named after another Epstein survivor, perhaps the most famous, Virginia Giuffre. If passed, it would lift the statute of limitations on civil sex abuse cases. This is a critical thing in the case I testified in, and it was too long for the person I was testifying for, and I couldn't believe it. I was shocked by this. Like, why doesn't it, why doesn't it have a statute of limitations? And I didn't know this. I was flummoxed as to why it was. Liz, talk about the legislation, why it's important, and what else you'd like to see from Congress.

• 1:05:21Speaker 04

  This is such an important law because...

• 1:05:25Speaker 04

  The way that your brain processes sexual trauma, it can take you decades to fully unfold what happened to you. And, you know, someone's disclosure can't operate on a legislative timeline. And so a lot of times we see people who were exploited in their teens and their twenties, not understanding what happened to them until their 40s or 50s. And by that time, it's too late. And it's not that the crime didn't happen. It's that the law had, the time had run in law. And so we, we've seen this approach in states. We've seen New York, the Adult Survivors Act, which opened a one-year look back period for anyone who'd experienced sexual assault.

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  So the importance of Virginia's law is that it would open that up on a federal level. And I think that there's no better way to honor the memory of Virginia Roberts Giuffre than to pass this law.

• 1:06:24Kara Swisher?

  Let me move on to another one. Jess, you told Katie Couric that you think Congress needs to call more people into testify, or just noting that anyone who lost their job over the use of files or who resigned and whose names appeared in the files multiple times and in very significant ways. The Clintons recently testified Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick has said he's willing to. The House Oversight Committee just voted to subpoena Bondi over the Justice Department's handling of the case. Bill Gates and LeAnn Black have also been asked to testify. What happens next if this happens? And, you know, most people feel President Trump should be called to testify about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. What do you think happens next, Jess?

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  My personal hope is that there is enough information from these testimonies to prove that a full-blown investigation needs to happen. And hopefully-

• 1:07:10Kara Swisher?

  Special counsel or something like-

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. And that survivors will be able to come in and give testimony because many of us feel like we had information that was never, ever listened to by the FBI. And so there's been these, you know, so-called investigations, but we have no idea because even the investigation notes weren't in the files. What I'm hoping is that the testimonies will make way for, yes, it's clear, we need to do some thorough investigations and that needs to start now.

• 1:07:41Kara Swisher?

  So have any of you spoken to federal investigators about ongoing investigations? Or no?

• 1:07:47Speaker 05

  Nope. Not since, um, you know, 20, what was that, 2019, when they came to my house? Um.

• 1:07:52Kara Swisher?

  So they're not investigating?

• 1:07:53Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  I mean, Pam Bondi said in the hearing supposedly there are ongoing investigations on her desk right now, but, you know.

• 1:08:03Kara Swisher?

  You've gotten, not gotten a call?

• 1:08:04Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:08:05Kara Swisher?

  In other words, no?

• 1:08:06Speaker 05

  No, I said, what are those investigations? You know, when she said that there, you know, there are active investigations, okay, great. Is that why you're holding, you know, certain files? Then what are they and why? You know, so we just all have, we have so many questions.

• 1:08:17Kara Swisher?

  So, to be clear, none of you have been called by federal investigators?

• 1:08:21Speaker 05

  No. No.

• 1:08:22Kara Swisher?

  Okay. All of you have made advocacy a huge part and it's incredibly brave. You've lobbied hard for the passage of the Epstein Files Transparency Act. You've been meeting with lawmakers, pushing for Virginia law, et cetera. Jess, you released an app to help people navigate the days and weeks after someone reveals they've been sexually assaulted, like a first aid kit, as you noted. Liz, you're an expert on human trafficking and you've helped bring Epstein survivors together for the first time. Danny, you've done a whole bunch of things with kids and trying to get people to be safe and figure things out. Talk about how advocacy has helped you come to terms with this abuse and help you heal. It's a very heroic thing to do. I hope you all understand that.

• 1:09:00Speaker 05

  Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I think it's so funny when people are like, oh, it's, it's very courageous and Annie Farmer said it fast. It's like you're just walking, you're putting one foot in front of the other and you just keep putting the feet in front of the other. It, it just feels like the next thing to do. And a lot of this does come from, from me.

• 1:09:17Kara Swisher?

  That is heroic, just so you know.

• 1:09:19Speaker 05

  Thank you for saying that. But, you know, it was, it's, I watched Virginia Giuffre turn shame into power. And I knew that I wanted to be able to do that for, like, for her and for survivors. And I just felt like. You know, the laws need to change. I mean, there are so many things. It's the rabbit hole. Once you start, it's like, or not even the rabbit hole. It's like cleaning your house, right? It's like you move one thing and then you're like, oh, gosh, now I have to like Windex. Now I have to, you know, and it just keeps building. Because it's like, oh, well, okay, we did the Transparency Act. We we got a law passed. Like, that's incredible. And then we're like, we need to change statute of limitations. Like, that is the next step,

• 1:10:01Speaker 05

  right? Because there shouldn't be a time limit on justice. I mean, I'm almost 40 now, and I'm just now coming to terms with being able to handle my own abuse and look back and actually see what happened to me, you know? So it's just crucial that we do this. And so it's just having that belief and knowing that you have to do something about it.

• 1:10:19Kara Swisher?

  Right, absolutely. Jess?

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  I was talking with my therapist recently about, you know, because she was so proud of me. And she's like, and your grand therapist is really proud of you. You know, that takes a lot of courage. And I told her, I can't freely feel that. I can't feel it. And she goes, that's because you just are doing the thing that's right for you. And for me, I feel like, like Liz, I was a child sexual abuse survivor. Then came Epstein to thwart the amount of healing that I had already gone through. And I just can't see myself doing anything else. It's the right thing to do. And all of the people that came before

• 1:11:06Speaker 00

  me that helped me be able to get to here before I could even speak the words, I remember how much it made a difference for me. And so I think what I'm doing is what other people did for me is all I'm doing is taking my hand, reaching down to the person behind me and giving them a pull up. And that's how we all heal. And that's how we stop being silent. And that's how we make cultural change.

• 1:11:28Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Liz, why don't you finish up?

• 1:11:31Speaker 04

  For me, I also, when people say that I'm brave, I don't see that or feel that necessarily. I can't imagine doing anything else. And really, what fuels me in doing this work is I see my six-year-old self, and I see myself throughout the different ages that I couldn't speak and that I didn't have anyone to talk to. And It would be irresponsible of me to have this position and to not use it so that others did not feel alone in this. Because if I could go back and tell myself anything, it would be to tell someone. And if they don't listen, tell someone else and just keep telling until people listen to you.

• 1:12:16Speaker 04

  And even if you feel like they don't, be proud of yourself because you at least were able to sit in your uncomfortable truth when other people weren't. And that's really what fuels me doing this advocacy, being the person that I wish was there for me when I needed them.

• 1:12:32Kara Swisher?

  Which is critically important to think about yourself because people don't mourn themselves in previous versions of themselves. Let me then ask.

• 1:12:41Speaker 04

  Can I just add one thing? We've talked about how this trauma is overwhelming and how it impacted our lives negatively. But I just want to leave people with, when you experience trauma, it's possible to recover from trauma. And so you're looking at three women here who've done a lot of work on ourselves and really invested time and energy into finding who we were before all of this happened. And that's possible for all survivors of sexual assault.

• 1:13:11Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely, 100%. It doesn't have to completely overwhelm you. It can. It absolutely can.

• 1:13:18Speaker 05

  I would also, sorry.

• 1:13:19Kara Swisher?

  Go ahead.

• 1:13:20Speaker 05

  I would also love to add that community is hugely important. And it was underrated. I was, I siloed myself. I was in a pretty horrible relationship for quite some time after my abuse with Jeffrey. And I was really, I siloed myself on purpose because I felt like I could never connect to people the way I had before abuse. And finding, you know, we have the Survivor Sisters and truly finding this incredible group of people and knowing that there's, there's something that is unsaid, that you just understand the depth of darkness and you're doing something actively to change it. So to be able to work on it, it's like the best group project we possibly can ever have, right? Where because it is like where the support that you've

• 1:14:04Speaker 05

  Feel from one another is everything and it changes everything for me. I think that like when I wake up in the morning and I listen to any one of these women talk, it's like, okay, Dani, get up. You can do this too. You gotta keep going, right? And so just finding your community and finding those spaces to be able to just speak about the unspeakable. It's really important.

• 1:14:26Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely. Can I ask one last final question? If you don't like the word brave or courageous or heroic or whatever, I want you each to think of one word to describe yourself right now. One word. Who wants to start?

• 1:14:39Speaker 04

  I want to use strong.

• 1:14:40Kara Swisher?

  Okay, strong. Because you are.

• 1:14:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I didn't always feel that way, you know? How often as women do we quiet those voices inside of us? That is telling us who we are and we're listening to what other people are saying. And so the strength was definitely always in me. It's just, yeah.

• 1:15:01Kara Swisher?

  Great word. Great word.

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  Tenacious. Because I would say I don't quit, you know? I get an A in therapy.

• 1:15:14Kara Swisher?

  Good job.

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  Whatever I attempt to do, I'm like, I just, I don't quit. Oh, no. And so I would say I'm tenacious.

• 1:15:25Kara Swisher?

  Excellent word.

• 1:15:26Speaker 05

  I think for me, it's honest. Because I couldn't be honest with myself every time I looked in the mirror for so long. I didn't, it just always felt like that imposter syndrome of even being alive because I knew that this abuse had happened and it was tucked away in the darkest parts of myself. So I think that every day, this has been a pursuit of real honesty for me.

• 1:15:48Kara Swisher?

  This is great. I would call you all inevitable. Eventually.

• 1:15:51Speaker 04

  We hope you're right.

• 1:15:52Kara Swisher?

  I am right.

• 1:15:53Speaker 04

  I hope so. We're holding you to it.

• 1:15:56Kara Swisher?

  It's just because you don't know how the story's gonna end that you feel hopeless, but it's not the case. It's inevitable.

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  I love that word.

• 1:16:01Kara Swisher?

  Inevitable.

• 1:16:02Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:16:03Kara Swisher?

  Anyway, I really appreciate it. Dani, Jess and Liz, thank you so much.

• 1:16:07Speaker 04

  Thank you, Cara.

• 1:16:08Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:16:09Speaker 00

  Thank you, Cara.

• 1:16:15Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Track academics. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit Follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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