Off the Record With Steven Rinella

🔥 Microhabits for a better marriage. Download the Together app. 📷 Follow Steven Rinella on Instagram 🥩 Watch MeatEater 🦌 More information on MeatEater On today’s episode, John talks with MeatEater founder Steven Rinella about life, love and hunting. Next Steps: ❤️ Get away with your spouse today! 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. Get up to 20% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Visit Hallow for a 90-day free trial. Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! Working knives for working people—Go to Montana Knife Company to see what’s available now! Explore Poncho Outdoors! Head to Shady Rays and use code DELONY for 40% off two or more polarized sunglasses. Get 25% off your order at Thorne. Visit Zander Insurance or call 1-800-356-4282 for your free instant quote today. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Early on, I was very interested in engaging with that outside audience. I felt this compulsion to be like, "No, no, no, no, no. Like, here, let me show you." There's a real effort to sanitize because it was of a fear of offending people. I was focused there, and then over time, I just realized I was more like focused on being like, "Isn't this a beautiful world we inhabit?"

• 0:28Dr. John Delony?

  How do you decide what other people get to see about your life?

• 0:37Dr. John Delony?

  Hey, what's up? This is John Deloney, and this is a special episode of Off the Record. This is kind of a new episode that we're dropping once every few weeks on Saturday mornings. These are interviews. These are conversations I'm having with some of my friends, people I admire, and in today's case, a hero of mine. When I put together a list of, "I would love to get these particular men and women on this show," this guest today was at the very top of the list. I'm talking about the great and awesome Steve Rinella. Steve Rinella is the founder of Meat Eater, which is a hunting and cooking show, but he's also an amazing writer. He's written a number of bestselling books.

• 1:22Dr. John Delony?

  He's a historian. He is, he's just a mastermind. And the show has very little to do with hunting today. We're both big hunters, but it has very little to do with that. We're talking about marriage. We're talking about kids. We're talking about balancing the chaos that's our life. We talk about what scares us to death about the future for our kids and what we're excited about for our kids. And we also talk about how do you manage things that you're really passionate about in a marriage when your spouse is not passionate about those things? This is one of my favorite conversations, off-camera and on. Steve is an amazing guy, just a great, kind human being and a wealth of knowledge. Buckle up, put your headphones in, turn it up a little bit, and enjoy my conversation

• 2:06Dr. John Delony?

  with the great and wonderful Steve Rinella.

• 2:11Dr. John Delony?

  The most important thing we have to talk about is this. So you were on my friend Sean Ryan's show.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  And he's lives right here.

• 2:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, he lives right here. Yeah. So I take Sean out hunting and he shoots his first buck. And I said, Sean, you can't take a picture of that buck and put it on the internets. And so he tells you the story and I'm watching it and I was like, oh, that's me. That's me. And then you go, man, I don't want to disparage your friend, but that guy's an, I don't know, idiot. I was like, oh. Okay. So here's my question. It was awesome, by the way. Here's my question. How do you decide what other people get to see about your life?

• 2:55Dr. John Delony?

  Or like, how do you post? How do you? Cause I'm navigating that and all the parents I talk to, like, who do I put this?

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:04Dr. John Delony?

  And it feels, you, you do it at such a public scale and it's such a third rail issue, right?

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, we.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  I'm, there's a, that's a dramatic pause, but it's not the men. It's more like, I'm faking. It's not dramatic pause. It's just a thinking pause. And the reason, because it's been a little bit, our paths are toward, when I say we, like our path toward what I share, we share. It is a we path. It's something that my wife and I navigated together. Early on, when we had our, we have three kids, we had our first kid. Remember he, he wound up, our, our first kid, James, wound up being in some media projects I did like as a baby.

• 3:45Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Okay. And then we just landed where we didn't like the way that felt.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  And we found that we had to make, we found that we just had to make a rule. And to an outside perspective, it might seem arbitrary, but we just needed to like make a thing.

• 4:02Dr. John Delony?

  Just y'all two.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  We just, yeah, we just were like, what is the rule?

• 4:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  And we hit on this rule. That we don't show our kids faces publicly. Okay. The reason it seems arbitrary is because I might put, I would maybe on social media, I would show a picture of my kids looking the other direction. Or if they're holding the fish up, the fish might be in front of their face. But it just like made, it made a thing that we don't do. And then it ruled out certain things.

• 4:27Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Right. I mean, there's no way our kids are going to be sort of like talking on video projects or like coming on TV shows, right? They can't because we don't show their face and it worked, and it worked really well. Um, because it just gave us like a line not to cross and want to be, you don't have to debate, you, we didn't need to like debate everything, the pros and cons of every possibility.

• 4:49Dr. John Delony?

  She sees something you posted and she gets upset, doesn't say anything.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, because like, is it their face or not their face? And so it just was, it was, it just, it worked remarkably well. Um, and we never had to revisit it. What we ran into now is, is now I have a, my youngest boy is now 15. And so we let him, he's very interested in photography. I don't know that he'll pursue it as a career, but he's like very interested in photography, very interested in wildlife photography and, um, we let him get a social media page. And the deal at first was that he couldn't post anything without okaying it with me. You know, because we were explaining to him like, man, you could, you could screw up and

• 5:28Dr. John Delony?

  Forever.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Be haunted.

• 5:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like when it's out there, like you do, you do a dumb thing and it's just, it's out there. The other day he posted something or another and I was like, I never looked at it. And he pointed out, there's a guy I work with, a photographer who I work very closely with and have for a long time named Seth Morris. We travel together and I said, you never checked that with me? And he's like, well, I checked it with Seth. I'm like, okay, that's not what we said, but it's a good guy to check with.

• 5:52Dr. John Delony?

  Well played, well played.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  It's a good guy to check with.

• 5:53Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  But now we said, so we're doing that now. Um, he's into it. I but but so that handles the kid aspect of it. The other aspects of it, I don't I don't really know. Um, I I don't do things quick. You know, I don't do things impulsively. And I found too, that maybe this is a function of getting older. I just turned fifty two the other day. Um, I'm just less and less like I'm less and less interested in social media. Like I just don't get it. I don't get excited about it anymore.

• 6:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, yes, across the board.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  It just it it feels like a different landscape. I love video. I love like, I like doing stuff. I mean, we distribute video in all manner of ways. Some people would regards YouTube as social media. I don't.

• 6:33Dr. John Delony?

  I don't either.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  You know, I love making things like like pieces that I know are just gonna live on YouTube. Love doing it. Love books, love podcasts, less and less interested in social media. I can I can see a future where I'm just not.

• 6:47Dr. John Delony?

  I'm out.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll just taper off. Like I I slowly tapered off alcohol and I don't drink any alcohol. I didn't like quit, I just quit.

• 6:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it wasn't a big event.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just one day was like, wow, I don't drink anymore.

• 6:59Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  I could picture someday being like, wow, I don't use social media.

• 7:02Dr. John Delony?

  That I'm hearing that, like not even from people who produce videos and things, but just the average people like it's burned out. Like it hasn't it hasn't solved the problem in my life. It said it was gonna solve. In fact, it's made it worse. And so what if I just, how do I talk to a person in real life? Now I don't know how to do that.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:21Dr. John Delony?

  I I struggle with that balance of, because we made the same rule with our kids.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Oh, you did?

• 7:25Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, and mine was less thoughtful than yours. Mine was more anxiety ridden, like one day those computers, right?

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 7:31Dr. John Delony?

  And that was fifteen years ago. I just, I didn't, I didn't want my son and and now my daughter to have to answer for their face being on something that they didn't have any input in, right? Like, he'll have to, my son's fifteen. The day is coming when he will be responsible for what the world sees that he's put out, but I don't want it to be on me.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:52Dr. John Delony?

  I already feel bad telling stories about him from stage a lot.

• 7:54Speaker 00

  I had this debate, I had this debate with a with a friend of mine whose kids have always been part of his stuff. And he's like, hey, man, if I'm a dairy farmer, my kids, they're gonna get up in the morning and milk cows. He's like, this media, that's a family business.

• 8:08Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I get it, but man.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  That's his take, not my take, but it's his take. And I was like, okay, you know, you thought about it, you thought about it.

• 8:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, but the cows see you, not every, every computer and.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Cows, cows keep a secret.

• 8:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, they do. Cows look at you and they're like, we see, we know. Man. So how do you decide? How have you navigated? And you started talking about hunting. You started showing what this looks like.

• 8:37Dr. John Delony?

  When it was, it's way more accepted now.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Hmm. You think so?

• 8:41Dr. John Delony?

  I think so. Maybe I'm.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  I guess, I guess maybe the, maybe the.

• 8:47Dr. John Delony?

  I haven't heard of people like dousing cans of paint on people in fur coats recently, right?

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Like, like. Correct.

• 8:54Dr. John Delony?

  Like you're still gonna have.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Sorry about that, actually.

• 8:56Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, do you?

• 8:56Speaker 00

  But, uh, but, uh, okay. I, I, I think that.

• 9:01Dr. John Delony?

  But you came in this when it was like, no one had ever seen.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were showing, we were, you know, 12 years ago, whatever, we were showing hunting.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  We, we were showing aspects of hunting that hadn't been shown to a large audience.

• 9:19Dr. John Delony?

  People knew grandpa went hunting. They didn't know what that meant.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. We were, we were like, kind of capturing a very detailed portrait.

• 9:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  A very, you know, for lack of a better, I mean, there are better words. I don't mean for lack of a better word. Come too lazy to find a better word. We were showing a very graphic treatment of hunting at a time when that just wasn't out there, even to the point where. Um, you know, we would, we would distribute and license shows to, um. Uh, Sportsman Channel at the time and, and we never, and they always encouraged what we did, but, but they even had policies in place and other outdoor channels. Outdoor, like hunting and fishing programs, uh, networks.

• 10:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Had policies in place to block portrayal of like blood, raw, like even raw meat. You know what I mean?

• 10:08Dr. John Delony?

  Wow.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  Like there's a real effort to sanitize.

• 10:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Cause it was of a fear of offending people. They don't want to be in kind of the opposite. It became true where it was like people were wondering what am I not seeing?

• 10:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  And all of a sudden it was cathartic or whatever. It was just to see it get turned into food.

• 10:25Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Wound up not being a detriment, but it wound up being additive to the experience and made a whole new generation of people kind of understand what it was all about.

• 10:34Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  But it was, but that was regarded as a risky move at the time, as odd as it seems now.

• 10:39Dr. John Delony?

  Well, and that's what I'm fascinated by is what's your north star in that? And what I mean by that question is I struggle with who gets a vote in my life. Like, and we were just talking earlier, 35% of the calls that come into my show are people who have cut off their in-laws or cut off their parents or parents are cutting off their kids. Because of that perceived, I'm tired of them telling me I need to drive a Camry instead of a whatever. Or they don't like the way I parent my kid, but I go all the way to, you did that in a media ecosystem. Like, I think this is the right thing to do. And there's going to be this many people who not only don't like it,

• 11:21Dr. John Delony?

  but who tell me I'm a terrible person and I'm evil, I'm what's wrong with the world and yada, yada.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 11:25Dr. John Delony?

  But there's a North Star that said, no, no, no, this is right. You know what I mean?

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I understand.

• 11:29Dr. John Delony?

  I wrestle with who gets a vote.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:32Dr. John Delony?

  And I look at you, I look at some of the, the, what I'd call the pioneer hunting guys who took us along with you. To say at some point y'all said, I don't care. I think this is right. Does that make sense?

• 11:46Speaker 00

  No, I understand. I'll approach that in a couple of ways. A thing I left off when talking about our decision about our kids.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Years ago, I had gotten a threat from an animal rights person and they referenced my family. And so that was, that was a factor that played into it. They wound up, um, it was funny because when, it was enough where, uh, we, the FBI. Like went to this person's work, went through his garbage.

• 12:14Dr. John Delony?

  Oh.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  He ordered a pepperoni pizza. They told, I mean, I'm not kidding. They came and they can't like.

• 12:18Dr. John Delony?

  They told you everything?

• 12:18Speaker 00

  They show up like, you know, like dressed how they're supposed to be dressed, the FBI, you know? It's a guy and a girl. The guy's got super short hair. They got trench coats on. I'm not kidding you. They're like, they're like scared the hell out of this guy.

• 12:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  That, that influenced our decision. So you're right. There was a thing where there was a, a, a sort of threatening verbal opposition to what I do.

• 12:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  The thing that shocks me, one of the things that shocks me most about kind of where I've spent, the ideas that I've spent exploring and exploring, I'm sorry, the ideas I've explored through my career. Is it, I don't really get, that's, that's not a big part of my life is engaging with people who are like vehemently opposed to what I do. I feel like they look at them like a lost cause.

• 12:59Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  You know, cause they can pressure, like you could, let's say you're a, like, there's a lot of closeted, there's a lot of celebrities are like closeted about they're hunting. Because there's a thing you can take, there's a thing you can take away from them. Right?

• 13:12Dr. John Delony?

  Right.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  You don't get to, you don't get to be in like.

• 13:14Dr. John Delony?

  My movie or whatever.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Play in Hollywood.

• 13:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  So they, they, there's like, yeah, there's like a thing, dude. I, yeah. I could, yeah, I could tell you, I could tell you great stories about.

• 13:26Dr. John Delony?

  That's the headline.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I could tell you great stories about closeted hunters. Because there's something that can be taken away from them.

• 13:32Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  There's like, there's a, there's a, there's a thing you can pressure. You know, certain kind of advertisers, there's a thing you can pressure.

• 13:39Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  That's threatening to them. We recently had a high, we had a high profile individual who was gonna come on our podcast and pulled out, just recently, pulled out at the last minute for fear of punished, getting punished by advertisers. Right?

• 13:53Dr. John Delony?

  For being on your show?

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's like, this isn't a thing that I'm, I'm not even like, I don't live this at all.

• 13:58Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think I don't live it at all, cause it's, I'm a lost cause. Like, what are you gonna take away from me? You know, so. So in that way, I guess that, that people that are opposed to the ideas I talk about, the lifestyle I have, like, they have no vote. You know?

• 14:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  To, to look at the question a different way, I, I, I used to imagine, like, like I imagine there's two audiences for, for a person like me. There, there's two potential audiences. There's, there's like the audience that sits on the outside of.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  What I do sits on the outside of outdoor, the outdoors, sits on the outside of hunting and fishing. Right. Sits on the outside of like any kind of extraction.

• 14:42Dr. John Delony?

  It's like you're a zoo animal. Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. They're like on the outside and they're looking in and they're curious about the world. They're threatened by it. They hate it.

• 14:50Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Whatever. And then there's the audience that's on the inside. And I imagine that being like the people I grew up around, the people I hang out with. Early on, I was very interested in engaging with that outside audience. I, I was like, I don't know why I felt this compulsion to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Like here, let me show you.

• 15:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Like you got it all wrong, you know, like, let me explain all this to you. Um.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  I was focused there and then over time I just realized I was more like focused on, on people from the inside, being like, isn't this a beautiful world?

• 15:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 00

  We inhabit.

• 15:31Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Let's, let's explore this and go deeper in this world and like, kind of push on its boundaries and think about it together. And, and, and find a way to perpetuate it and save the good parts.

• 15:42Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Right. And that's sort of where I imagine spending my time now, like, like I've shifted. I was here talking to the, the outside and now more and more, I'm like, I'm very interested in on the inside.

• 15:55Dr. John Delony?

  Is that because you felt this is futile or has this crew become more and more unhinged?

• 16:03Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 16:03Dr. John Delony?

  I think that's just who I am.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  That's who I've always hung out with.

• 16:08Dr. John Delony?

  Like the way you bifurcated that, I would have said that has been your superpower.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 16:14Dr. John Delony?

  Is the only guy that will run an entire episode that, and obviously you're a great writer and order like.

• 16:24Dr. John Delony?

  Like, I didn't get anything. I missed.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:26Dr. John Delony?

  Right? I wounded an animal. Now I'm not gonna sleep for five nights. Like, you're the only guy that's explored failure in that way, which is awesome. But it has, like, my daughter, like, again, born in Texas, two Texas parents, we probably eat venison five nights a week, and that's what we have.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:42Dr. John Delony?

  And she, she's ten, and she, she refuses, she thinks hunting is awful and terrible, but she watches your show.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 16:51Dr. John Delony?

  But.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  I put her, I put her in this pile.

• 16:53Dr. John Delony?

  When it comes to the.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  She's on the inside.

• 16:55Dr. John Delony?

  Actual dead animals, she'll do this, right? She didn't wanna see it, and she's like, oh, you're watching a meteor, okay, she'll pop down the couch. And so, but it always felt there's a humanity to it. Does that make sense?

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:05Dr. John Delony?

  And you've done it in a way that's not pornographic, right? That's not just, ah, but there's a human element to it.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, in all fairness, there is, like, at all times, it's always been to both, I guess, that I, I just pictured the emphasis.

• 17:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Or you know, like, when, I remember a piece of writing advice I got, uh, there, there was a writer named, is a writer named Ian Fraser, who's very influential to me when I was in writing school. Um, and, and, and I don't think this is his advice to all writers, but he was like, try to get, like, in your best, like, when you're writing, try to get in that, your best self, right? That, like, at the time, like, you, like, he, he liked to drink, I like to drink. He'd be like, you, you've had, like, you're like, in the bar, you're with your best friends, you've had, like, a drink, maybe two, and you're telling, like, you're like, telling your best ver, like, the best way you're gonna nail a story.

• 18:04Dr. John Delony?

  That's great advice.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  You know, and it's like, who is that?

• 18:07Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  Right?

• 18:08Dr. John Delony?

  Not your preachy self, or your annoying self.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Who is that? And, and, and so, when I'm doing my stuff, I guess if I imagine that that's the, the, the me I'm bringing, you know, I bring it better when I'm kinda talking to people where I'm like, you know what I mean, right?

• 18:27Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  You know, maybe you never thought about it. Maybe you don't have the luxury of thinking about this all the time professionally, but when I tell you this, I know it's gonna resonate with you.

• 18:35Dr. John Delony?

  You're reaching a god.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, right? And there's like, so, that's kinda what I'm getting at, man. It's a little bit, I, what I'm saying is, I recognize it's probably a little confusing, but it's just a way I've come to think about it.

• 18:46Dr. John Delony?

  So, how do, how do you, how have you established comfort with? I mean, burning an episode, and I say that intentionally, like burning an episode

• 18:58Dr. John Delony?

  to show we missed, that takes a lot of courage.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 19:02Dr. John Delony?

  You see what I'm saying?

• 19:03Speaker 00

  You mean, when you say, you mean like, like using it?

• 19:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah. And you don't burn anything. I think those are some of those powerful episodes, right?

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 19:10Dr. John Delony?

  They're fun and they're beautiful and they're whatever, but, but being able to say, I, I, cause you have an opportunity to paint yourself as a hero, right? The same as every, I was talking to a dad the other day who's had some bad stuff and he has a, like a 12, 13 year old son. I said, the greatest gift you can give that kid right now is to let him see you be sad. And then he'll know his dad's a person and then he'll see what you do next, right? But all of us want to put out the best versions of ourself. And that takes a lot. I've never seen anyone else do what you do in that way.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, we became known, you know, when I say we, like the folks that have always worked on the, the meaty of the show with, we became known for kind of showing these different aspects of failure at times. And, um, it's great and I like it, but it also, it was motivated in part by how we worked early on where.

• 20:05Dr. John Delony?

  You have a whole crew and that's what you got.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, we would, so when we started making the show, I remember we, we left one time. The first time we ever went out to make episodes, we, we left and we knew we were gonna, we, we, we were gonna make 16 of them in a year. Right? Which is a ton.

• 20:21Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Way more than we make now. We were making 16 a year and we'd go out and we're gonna, let's say we're gonna go up, whatever, and go mess around Alaska. We're gonna go do four and we have 20 days. So we're gonna do this, this, this, and this. You couldn't, it's like for, for a hundred reasons, you couldn't come back and be like, but we're not gonna use some of it.

• 20:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 00

  It was just like, it was, there was no way.

• 20:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  And, um, and so we just found the way to, just to, to, to make it be a story. And, and the guys, I've told us so many times that people like.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  When I started making Meat Eater, I wasn't making it with guys that hunt. Like, so I was, I had a joint venture, like Meat Eater was a joint venture between me and a production company called 0.0 Production. They most famously did all the Bourdain shows.

• 21:14Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 21:15Dr. John Delony?

  Cooking channel.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, so they did, they did like a Cook's Tour, I think it was called, and then it went to, no reservations and parts unknown. Okay.

• 21:24Dr. John Delony?

  Yep.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  So, I mean, they, like, all the Bourdain stuff, they filmed. What they loved about these trips is they had this, like, very clear objective, right? You're gonna, we're gonna try to get this thing. And they're excited about it, and they're, they, they wanna know if we're gonna get it too. And then you don't, you don't get it. They're like, well, that's what happened. Like, we didn't get it. In their mind, it'd be like, who cares if you didn't get it? It's like, the story is trying to get it. And there's this, there's this explanation story, like, it's most fundamental level. Story is, you know, there's this definition of it. It's like, someone or something wants something. Okay? And then, but there are obstacles in their way.

• 22:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yep.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  So.

• 22:06Dr. John Delony?

  It's like Joe Campbell 101.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like a snail, like a little snail, he wants to, like, get a lettuce leaf.

• 22:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  But, you know, he's gotta cross the highway, whatever the hell. It's like, story is like, you know, it's sort of like, you wanted this bear, that's cool, you didn't get it. There was obstacles in your way, they were insurmountable. What's there to, like, it's cool? And so I got comfortable with it being cool, you know?

• 22:27Dr. John Delony?

  But what a radical idea. What if we just, I don't know, told the truth about what happened? You know what I mean? What a crazy thing.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  No, they got a kick out of it. They loved it. We had, we had, we had a lot of fun in those, in those days. And, uh, and there's, we have this, in our crew, we have this robust debate, like, is it better? Is it, is it better to go get a hunter? Is it easier to get a hunter and teach him how to hold a camera? Or is it easier to go get a guy that knows how to hold a camera and teach him how to be out on a hunt?

• 22:57Dr. John Delony?

  It's gotta be that one.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Well, there's a real split. This is a contentious issue. It's a contentious issue.

• 23:03Dr. John Delony?

  I've thought it would be really easy to hold a camera and those dudes are amazing.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  In the end, in the end, and I like to tease them. I like to tease our guys, the guys that work with the top. But in the end, yeah, there's, I think it's easier to learn to be sneaky.

• 23:16Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, just be quiet.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  It is to learn how to have a really good eye.

• 23:20Dr. John Delony?

  And yeah. And get like the, yeah, the desert rose while you walk off. Man.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  I can't remember what the hell you asked me.

• 23:28Dr. John Delony?

  No, it's, it's, it's, well.

• 23:31Dr. John Delony?

  I'm struck by that. There, there's a humanity that runs through it and I, I have a, I don't call it a bad habit. I just have a habit of taking any big issue, global issues, politics issues, like big things. And distilling them down to how does this work at my kitchen table, right? And just what you said.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Give me an example of what you mean.

• 23:49Dr. John Delony?

  What you, like, um.

• 23:53Dr. John Delony?

  What you, I'll use what you just said, like, okay, so we have this, we have this budget, we have this time. And we have to come back with four episodes because that's what we promised the studio. All right. Well, we only were successful, quote unquote, in our hunts twice. And so how are we going to tell the story?

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:09Dr. John Delony?

  We could gloss it up. We could go do something else and pretend it was part of the story, right? Or we can just tell them the truth. And if I'm sitting with my wife trying to come up with a reason why I was late again, right? I could, I can be like, well, you know, or I could just say, so here's a great example. Last night I, I got home and I was like, to my wife, her name's Sheila. I was like, hey, this has been weighing on me. And I need you to come up. I've got a rumor I write and do all my stuff. And I said, I need you to come up here. I have a deep secret that I've been keeping from you and I'm ashamed of it and I just gotta let it out.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Are you gonna tell me?

• 24:45Dr. John Delony?

  I'll tell you. Yeah. I think this comes out. So come on, yeah, yeah. And she, she was like, well, okay, let's, here we go. And long story short is I had a. I'm trying to come up with a, my son's gonna turn sixteen. And I tried to come up with something that was gonna be like, just awesome, right? And so I had a guy who makes custom rifles and he made this amazing thing and engraved some stuff for me to my son on it and all that. But the thing that I was upset about, that it just, it was a light bulb for me was, here's this cool passing of the torch gift to my son. Who's been with me, I didn't get in a hunt until late, so he's been with me at every opening day, right? Since he was little, little bitty.

• 25:25Dr. John Delony?

  I didn't include my wife in it, right? And so I've been thinking of like, how do I like navigate this story? And here I am with like a parenting and a marriage show. And I'm like, well, how do I spin this? And it was like, I'm gonna bring her up in my writing room and say like, I left you out of this thing. And after I finished it, she was like-

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Like, and this bullet, that's from your mom?

• 25:42Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly. She, she signed it, this little eternity, so it's special, right? But, but when we got done, she started laughing, she was like, that's really what we're doing here. And I was like, well, I just want you to know. And she's like, oh, okay. And she's like, have we done now? And she walked out, she's laughing. But like-

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Cause she, she's, she might be instinctively more collaborative than you.

• 26:00Dr. John Delony?

  Well, it was, I, I'm usually the overly collaborative one, but it was just, I got so absorbed with the thing. But going back to, if you just told the truth, like this is what happened.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:10Dr. John Delony?

  And then suddenly that becomes like a people, I trust that guy.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:14Dr. John Delony?

  That's the thing that, the, the thing that I get from you most is I trust that guy.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  You know, the, the, in all fairness, there, there is a thing to consider, is there's a,

• 26:24Speaker 00

  there's a built in artifice to TV production. Because we have a thing called like the shoot, the, the, the shoot ratio. Meaning if you're shooting-

• 26:36Dr. John Delony?

  Shooting weapons or shooting?

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Oh, sorry, film.

• 26:38Dr. John Delony?

  Film, okay.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Picture that you're, picture that you're shooting 20 minutes of film for every minute used. But it's usually, it's a bigger ratio, okay? So you go out, let's say you go out and you do something for, for five days. And you're up before dark and you're still kinda doing stuff at dusk. And all day you're just rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. The minute you go and and pick your 22 minutes, which a 30 minute show is 22 minutes of of material. Um, the minute you go and pick the 22, like something's happened.

• 27:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 00

  Do you follow me?

• 27:14Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah, totally.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Where long, long periods of whatever get cut and little side trips don't pan out.

• 27:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Do you mean? So there, so there is baked into it. A it's not all there.

• 27:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, a bunch of stuff happened. It's not there and it's condensed and the thing can wind up seeing perhaps more exciting than it was.

• 27:37Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Boredom can seem poetic.

• 27:40Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Rather than boring.

• 27:42Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean?

• 27:43Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, totally.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  Right? Like boredom.

• 27:45Dr. John Delony?

  Hour three of glassing is not fun.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, boredom is conveyed with some beautiful time lapses of sunsets.

• 27:51Dr. John Delony?

  And a great like over like voiceover. Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  If you're really going to capture the feeling, it'd be that, um, we're just gonna have the video stop now. And you, the audience will sit there for hours. Wondering when it's gonna start back up again. So there is a, you know, you're making a piece of entertainment and part of doing that is you're making decisions about what goes. But I think that like striving to, um, striving to maintain a level of like purity, a level of responsibility.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  That that's a good aspiration to have, and I just have never found where that sits at odds with making something that's entertaining.

• 28:38Dr. John Delony?

  Agreed.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? I get they they kind of work hand in hand.

• 28:42Dr. John Delony?

  But that is not a consensus view.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so.

• 28:45Dr. John Delony?

  I think the consensus view is I have to look as good as as possible. And I I deal with the the married couples who are like, yeah, but they have it all together. Or they're working on a great or I want it to be like, oh, no, I have to be like this woman on this movie or whatever. And it's like, that's not.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  I should have brought my wife down here, man.

• 29:04Dr. John Delony?

  Solve some stuff. Solve some stuff, man.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  I bought in.

• 29:08Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, exactly. One second, please. Yeah, we were talking, I was talking to Corinne about that. That'd be a great, just bringing in episode of the wives of people who are on TV and people who hunt and fish. Like, that'd be a, that'd be a dark episode, man. Alright, so let's talk about that. I want to talk about, you mind talking about being married?

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Oh, no, man. I love, I love being married and I like talking about it.

• 29:29Dr. John Delony?

  You have this great quote here. I love it.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 29:32Dr. John Delony?

  Um, I'm writing a book about marriage right now. And I found an article, uh, it's an old school one. I didn't find it. One of the people on my team did. Said, "You describe your marriage one time as a mismatch made in heaven." What does that mean?

• 29:46Speaker 00

  Um. My wife is, is, is not the outdoorsman that I am.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  Sort of coincidentally, we grew up not too far apart.

• 29:58Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  We met, we met in New York. We met, like, the first time I ever stepped foot in New York City. I mean, the first time ever, is I, I had sold my first book to Miramax. My wife worked for Miramax at that time.

• 30:11Dr. John Delony?

  Miramax Publishing? Or you were going to get it made into a film?

• 30:13Speaker 00

  So, no, the film house had a publishing arm.

• 30:15Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, wow.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, so she's, my, my wife used to like work for Bob and Harvey Weinstein.

• 30:18Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  At Miramax, they bought my first book. First time I ever stepped foot in New York was to meet the publishing team.

• 30:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  That's how I met my wife. Turns out that she grew up a couple hours away from me.

• 30:32Dr. John Delony?

  Tried to get as far away from there as possible.

• 30:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so like, I went to, I was like, I was, at the time I was living in Alaska, like, all over the place. No, that's not, where was I living at the time?

• 30:42Speaker 00

  I don't remember where I was living at the time. Montana, I think. I was living in Montana at the time when we met. And, uh, but we wound up, like, we knew the same rock stations, you know?

• 30:51Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Like, we both listened to KLQ, whatever, like, we knew all the same, like, all the kind of same stuff.

• 30:56Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  We just knew about it. But we met far away and she was like, very committed to urban life. Like, she wanted to work in book publishing and book publishing at that time. So that was, that was where you went to work in book publishing. So. That's how we met and then some years went by before we were in a relationship. By the time we were in a relationship, I was living, I tried to move, I moved to Alaska, but it didn't stick and um, because she, she was living there. And so we just, we kind of bonded over shared experience. I mean, we're very, I think emotionally, we're very similar.

• 31:33Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  But just our, our, our, what we choose to do with our time is very different. Then in time, we bonded very much over kids and she has a relationship with the, the stuff we do. And now our kids, our kids are obsessed with it. They love hunting, they love fishing. You know, they like sports too, but uh, they like the stuff I like to do. Um, and she is a, she observes it. She loves that they do it.

• 31:58Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  Loves that they do it, loves that we do it. What else is good about it? This is advice to dads out there. If I take all three kids to go do something, you can do no wrong.

• 32:12Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Dude.

• 32:13Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  It's like, there is no wrong.

• 32:15Dr. John Delony?

  A hundred percent.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  There is no wrong. If I'm like, hey, I'm taking all the kids.

• 32:18Dr. John Delony?

  Yep.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  And we're going fishing. It's like, you guys have a good time.

• 32:23Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Sounds cool to me.

• 32:24Dr. John Delony?

  There's no greater gift.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  And so, um, it just, it, it works really well, but uh, but there's just that, that lingering difference, you know? And, and it's only becoming like, we, we have a 15 year old now. It is becoming where we do, we do talk about this and she wonders about it. And it's good to wonder about it. She's like, but what happens later?

• 32:46Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? Like someday the kids are gonna be like, all you, like all your hunting, all your little hunting, fishing buddies leave.

• 32:53Dr. John Delony?

  Oh no, dude, I'm dying.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  Right, they leave. And they go and like, they have their own families and stuff. And then like, you know, and I've proposed to her arrangements. I'm like, I got a deal for you.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  We spend half the time doing what I want and half the time doing what you want. And she's like reluctant to take the deal.

• 33:13Dr. John Delony?

  Anytime a husband says, I got a deal for you. I'm like, no, like half the days we do what I like when we're retired.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:20Dr. John Delony?

  Half the days I pick, half the days you pick, but they come in blocks.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  She's reluctant.

• 33:26Dr. John Delony?

  Sweet.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  Which seems like, why would you not take that deal?

• 33:28Dr. John Delony?

  We're gonna go from mule deer hunting to downtown Denver.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, like we start hunting turkeys and like we start hunting turkeys in late March. We finish hunting turkeys in late May. And then you get a couple of months.

• 33:37Dr. John Delony?

  You do whatever you want to do. My, uh, my, I had a, uh, an event I was doing and it fell on opening day this year. And it was my 15 year old. He's like, man, I hope this is important, dad. And I was like, why? And he goes, you only got three more left with me and then I'm gone. I was like, bro, that hurts, man. That was low, dude, but he was right.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  We, we've developed a lot of those, uh, they kind of add up. We have a lot of traditions now, like little hunting, fishing traditions. And they, they eat up the calendar.

• 34:09Dr. John Delony?

  They do.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  Like little family outdoor traditions, you know?

• 34:11Dr. John Delony?

  I'm already pre grieving that. Like, so in my former life, I worked in universities forever. And the number of dads who I would hug on move in morning, who were just sobbing. And I'd just roll my eyes through the back of my head like, good God, dude, shut up. Now I'm like already pre, like, I don't know what it's gonna be like to walk out there in September. My kid's away at college and I'm by myself. Like, I don't know if I'm ready for that day.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  I'm depressed about it.

• 34:38Dr. John Delony?

  I don't think it was like that, like.

• 34:42Dr. John Delony?

  I don't, I don't think with, I, I wonder if our dads thought that.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  No, I was just gonna, I was just gonna get at it. I don't think it was like that. We just kind of like, I, I, I grew up with, you know, siblings and, and, um, we were brought up to hunt and fish and, and trap, you know? And, um, and just eventually, yes, in high school, we just really stayed all the way into it, but just moved kind of away.

• 35:05Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  And I, I never even thought to wonder what the experience was like for him.

• 35:09Dr. John Delony?

  For the old man?

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know? And now it's like the most now it's like the most depressing thought in the world, dude. You know, yeah, it's so funny to think about like that they would they also need to wake up and they're like all out like they all went fishing, but didn't tell you.

• 35:24Dr. John Delony?

  You're like, well, yeah, but not having like our dads, like not having the skill set to be like, hey, I want to come, right? Like I don't know dads, especially our dads didn't know how to do that. And so they just probably went back to the newspaper.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  I know you wouldn't know. I know. It was like, I'm telling you, man, till still sitting here right now. Like I've never in my life contemplated until this second, I've never in my life contemplated how my dad had that experience.

• 35:52Dr. John Delony?

  Terrible son, man.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  As much as I think about it all the time now.

• 35:57Dr. John Delony?

  Well, I but here's the other side of it. So a couple of years ago, um, I put together this big, it was my fantasy. I put together down in South Texas, a hunt. It was going to be a three generation hunt. My dad, me and my son. My dad and I have been hunting never. And when he was a he was a homicide detective in Houston growing up and for a side hustle, he would uh, had somebody who did taxidermy stuff. So he would take me snake hunting. We'd catch snakes and we'd turn them over to this guy, this taxidermist. And so that was the hunting we did and we fished all the time, but we never hunted together. And so I put this whole thing together. And of course, old man, my dad, he's in his seventies. He's still a laser of a shot from all those years. He shoots the biggest deer, of course, it was cool. And then when it was over, he's literally, I'll never forget this. He goes,

• 36:42Dr. John Delony?

  all right, well, I'll see you guys. And I was like, no, no, no, you have to hug me. We have to have a whole thing. He's like, okay. But it was very much like, all right, well, I did this. So y'all have a good. So it was it it I had all this expectation on it, but. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what it'll be like. You should call your, is he still alive?

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Oh, no, no, he's been dead a long time. Yeah, been dead a long time. He had me and he's old.

• 37:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Dang, I bet he cried.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  He didn't do a lot of that.

• 37:12Dr. John Delony?

  So, uh, go back to.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  I cut my thumb there not too long ago. Had to get stitched up and last night I was driving my daughter home from her volleyball. And she was like, when you cut your hand, how come you didn't cry? I'm like, it just like, people just quit crying.

• 37:28Dr. John Delony?

  You'll see.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  It just stops.

• 37:29Dr. John Delony?

  That's right. How old is she? How old's your little?

• 37:32Speaker 00

  She's 12. And I was like, I was like, to be honest with you, it was, uh, um, I want to say she's 13.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  There's so many of them, they change their ages so much. I always gets confused, but I was just trying to explain to her like, I know that your instinct would be to cry, but that'll go away. And pretty soon you won't cry at all.

• 37:52Dr. John Delony?

  Well, well. My daughter cries a lot.

• 37:57Dr. John Delony?

  I love, that day will be awesome when it comes. What, what did, uh, what would you go back and tell your younger self about being married?

• 38:06Dr. John Delony?

  If you could run some things back?

• 38:07Speaker 00

  I don't know. I feel like I'm better at it. I don't know if I'm better at it now than I thought it would be.

• 38:12Dr. John Delony?

  Man.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  I don't know. You know what wound up being, I think the thing that like.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  That's a good question. I don't think I would have had anything.

• 38:24Dr. John Delony?

  I think I got a laundry list of stuff I'd go tell myself, man.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, but if we, if, if, if we had like, if we had thrown in the towel and if we'd thrown in the towel and gotten divorced, then I'd probably have all these things I was going to tell myself.

• 38:34Dr. John Delony?

  That's right.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  But we wound up doing like, we wound up doing, um. I don't know. I guess we did a, we're like doing a fairly good job of being married.

• 38:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Do you follow me?

• 38:46Dr. John Delony?

  Totally.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Um. I mean, it's, it's hard. I think that that's, that strikes some people so weird you talk about that it's hard. It's like. We just.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  We're, we're kind of hard, we're hard workers, you know? And we're like, we have a loyalty and, um.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  We we shield ourselves from impulsive actions.

• 39:15Dr. John Delony?

  What does that look like?

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Well, I remember like

• 39:20Speaker 00

  when you're in the dating phase, okay? This this doesn't sound like terribly immature, but like when you're the dating phase.

• 39:27Dr. John Delony?

  I'm known for my maturity, so.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  There's this idea, this is a, this is an observation that I made to my wife after we got married. There's like, you you carry this idea in the back of your head. Where if you're wronged, right, you're wronged. You'd be like, well, I'll show you, you know.

• 39:42Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like.

• 39:43Dr. John Delony?

  That goes.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, you try to call me, like, I'm not gonna, you know.

• 39:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  I'll show you what's up, right? This is always in the back of your head, like the.

• 39:51Dr. John Delony?

  Scorekeeping, yeah.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, like you're gonna, you know, you're gonna stick it to them, you know, or like they're gonna wish they had never said that, you know?

• 39:58Dr. John Delony?

  Or the other side of it, like, I got flowers, that's a five for me, right?

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:02Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Just whatever, you're you're doing this thing that there's like these, there's these actions you're gonna take that are gonna set records straight, you know? And I just remember getting married and just being like, you know, saying to myself like, let's be honest. You ain't gonna do nothing.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  You're not, you're not gonna get any kind of revenge.

• 40:22Dr. John Delony?

  No.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  It's just, you know, it's not gonna, no one's gonna come to you and like beg for your forgiveness.

• 40:30Dr. John Delony?

  Whenever I do live events, I always talk about the imaginary conversations we have in our heads that and the that's one of a few things, the audience is like, oh. It's like, I will have full, and I always win and I always have these mic drop moments. And cause of this, right? And she's like, oh, you're right. Hey, I'll never have that conversation ever. I wish I had had that wisdom at 24 when I got married. Geez, Louise, man. I discovered that like three years ago.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  I remember another buddy of mine talking about the peace of mind, I already mentioned Morgan Fallon, who I've worked with for years a bunch.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  He had this observation to me about getting married where he said that he got married and he said it would have this feeling like, you know, like in old movies when like the the you go to, you got the coat rack, you know, and your hat, you know, and like you're heading off to work. And they put their hat on, you know, like their briefcase.

• 41:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  He said like, he got married, he loved it because it sort of gave him. He'd get up and it was like he's putting his hat on and grabbing his briefcase.

• 41:28Dr. John Delony?

  Like he had a purpose.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, he had like a thing he was supposed to be doing.

• 41:31Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  And he'd always been, and for parts of his life, he was, he wasn't, you know, you'd wake up and you weren't quite clear on what you're supposed to be doing.

• 41:39Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, okay, yes. So the, the question that has haunted me for the last two years is, why did Jeff Bezos get remarried? Like, why? Like, why would you do that? Like, there's something, and I've talked to nerds, I've talked to scientists and anthropologists, you know, and we can talk all about the nerd stuff.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  I guess like fear of, like, there's like-

• 42:03Dr. John Delony?

  But like, why?

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Fear of death, there's like a show offiness.

• 42:07Dr. John Delony?

  But the, the thing that keeps coming back to is this wired for purpose or this wired for service, like this thing of, I'm aimless. And at this, I don't, does that make sense? Like, in a strange, uh, I don't know, you're the historian here, but like a strange, weird cultural uncoupling. It feels like every string that tethers us together has just been cut overnight.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:30Dr. John Delony?

  But the idea is, the, the most sacred thing is to be unconnected, uncommitted, right? To always have a line in the water somewhere, doing a thing, right? Professionally, personally, whatever. And there's something of, that's a beautiful way to put that. The alternative is, I could wake up every day saying like, dude, I got, I've got a thing I can contribute to.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  I remember being in graduate school and, um, we would, I, I would work, uh, I'd work in the mornings doing tree work. Like I was a tree climber. And I'd work in mornings doing that.

• 43:05Dr. John Delony?

  Which, hold on, I'm gonna talk directly to the camera. For the men in here, I mean, for the women watching this, that was a huge flex he just did. Huge.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Either that was a ground crew.

• 43:15Dr. John Delony?

  I was a climber. So I, if I stood on this table, I, like, I'm so scared of heights, so.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 43:22Dr. John Delony?

  I tip my hat to you.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  We had, my hat to you. This, this guy I worked with, we would have these contracts where we would do, we would get a contract to do these, um, boulevard trees. And he would bid out, we'd have a bid to do like 400 boulevard trees in a winter. But we sort of had a pace to it, you know? But anyways, we would often get done. He was a writer too, and I was, I was an aspiring writer, learning to write. And we would get done at noon. You know, we'd usually wrap up like we'd work from seven to 11 or 12. And sometimes I'd wander down, I'd be with friends of mine and be like, like, well, I'm gonna, you know, probably write later in the day, but let's go down to Charlie's. And we'll get a, we'll get a po boy and a, you know, maybe a cocktail.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  And then, you know, and then all of a sudden it's one in the morning and they're, I mean, it's one in the morning and they're, they're playing, uh, closing time.

• 44:16Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  And I'd be like, man, you mean to tell me we just like shot pool?

• 44:21Dr. John Delony?

  For 12 hours?

• 44:22Speaker 00

  For 12 hours?

• 44:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  I was gonna write.

• 44:24Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  And, and I led a lot. It was like, we laughed. It was fun. I kind of learned a lot in some weird way. And if inefficiently, I learned a lot. Um, I needed, like, I needed to get serious.

• 44:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  I don't know that I would have gotten serious. Oh, I had, I don't think I would have found it myself.

• 44:49Dr. John Delony?

  No.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  To get serious if I hadn't gotten into, if, if I hadn't become a husband.

• 44:55Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  And become a parent. Um, because it's really easy to not get serious.

• 45:00Dr. John Delony?

  But you and I both run with people. I don't know if we run with people. We both know people who got married and continued.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:07Dr. John Delony?

  Where's that model come from?

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Man, well, I mean,

• 45:11Dr. John Delony?

  Or maybe it wasn't model.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, like dude, it would be like, it'd be like, I don't, you know, it's hard to tell what you pick up as influences. Um, Cause that, it would have been like, for, for me as a kid.

• 45:22Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  We ate, we had dinnertime. Do you know what I mean? And there was exceptions, but generally it was like, there was dinnertime. There's no way in the world, there's no way in the world, my dad would have been out in the bars without my mom knowing where he was. It's just like,

• 45:37Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  That, there was a lot of things that, you know, um, there's a lot of things you look and you're kind of like, what was going on there? About growing up, but, um, there was no sense of insecurity. I mean, you knew what the house was gonna be like. You knew what the mood was gonna be like. You knew when you got home, there was food.

• 45:57Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  You knew when you got home, there was people wondering where you'd been. You had, there was expectations of you. Expectations that you had of home were met. Right?

• 46:08Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  And, and I, you know, I, I absorb some amount of that. Um, my wife didn't grow up that way young. When I, when we got together and started having kids and I was very insistent on family dinner. It was a little bit of a, not, it was, you know, it wasn't her program as a kid. Doing that.

• 46:24Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  Um, for, for a long time, she just lived in a single family household.

• 46:27Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Um, and she was kind of surprised by it and was a little bit surprised by how adamant I was about it. But if I'm out of town now, they sit down for family dinner. It's just like, we have family, we say that, we sit at a table like this. Right? Our little boy, for whatever reason, he's always at the head of the table. Like, like I sit here, my wife sits there, my daughter, you know what I mean? And, and maybe it's boring. It's, I don't know. It's just, it's just like, there's a rigidity to things and.

• 46:56Dr. John Delony?

  But you know, that's one of the highest. That's one of the highest predictors of childhood outcomes.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Is that right?

• 47:01Dr. John Delony?

  It's family dinner time.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Really?

• 47:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, it really is. It's, it's, it's, my wife and I are both nerds and that was one of our, when we started having kids, it was like, this is, this is, everything stops for this. And that's it. Now though, that my kids, my wife had this idea. Like when she found out she was pregnant and she found out we were having a boy, she was like, hey, we gotta talk about this. Like there's, we have one job with this kid. And I was like, oh, here we go. It's gonna. And I thought it was gonna be some big poetic and she said, we have to raise a kid that we like, that we like being around. And now I've got two hilarious, funny, like, smart kids. I don't like, let me put it this way, I had a buddy named John, and I've told this before on the show, like, I've had a buddy named John.

• 47:46Dr. John Delony?

  He had a kid, he was the first one of our little gang to have kids. He disappeared. Like, we hung out every Monday night, kind of like you said, just blowing the night away and. I, his wife is a long, 20 year friend of mine, but I was like, man, she's the worst, dude. Like, he has a one kid, he can't hang out anymore. It wasn't until I had my son that him and I were having dinner one night and I was like, you didn't tell me that it wasn't, that you didn't want to hang out with us. You'd rather be doing that. And he was like, you wouldn't have understood, man. I couldn't have explained it to you.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:15Dr. John Delony?

  Um, but now I don't, there's not very many places I want to be other than that silly, goofy, too loud, too messy, too funny, too whatever table. I just think it's, yeah, it's, it's an anchor point for me.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I get a guilty, I get a real guilty conscience. Um, and people. Oh, there's probably a school of thought that thinks that like living under guilt. Not like it's like a cloud of guilt. Maybe guilt's not the right word. I have a strong sense of obligation.

• 48:42Dr. John Delony?

  Obligation. Yeah, yeah.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? Like, like, and let's be straight, man. I miss a lot. Like, I travel. And but my promise, my sort of promise to my family is like, when I'm home, I'm home.

• 48:56Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? When I'm home, they're part of the plan. You know, like I like engaged, get my kids to do stuff. We make them do stuff with us still, you know, that those days will end. But, uh, and and I think that that's somewhat motivated by that feeling of of an awareness of what I miss. And I do wonder if I liked worked for, I don't know what kind of job you have.

• 49:24Dr. John Delony?

  Bob's tree trimming.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Okay, I was still, I was still, yeah, I was still working for a tree service and we just worked around town. And every night I came home, I wonder like, would I have gotten complacent then?

• 49:35Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Would I have been like, I'm here all the time?

• 49:38Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  I was gonna go to the bar.

• 49:39Dr. John Delony?

  Or I'm here all the time. I'll just spend the time sharing my phone.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I wasn't trying to be like super dad when I'm home.

• 49:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  You know?

• 49:45Dr. John Delony?

  That's not fair. I'm not like super. Intentional dad.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's guilt motivated in some way. It's maybe not the perfect word, but I I do feel a like, I know. Yeah, I feel like a, like a, I don't know, man, like a

• 50:04Speaker 00

  like a obligation to hold up and end of the deal.

• 50:09Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  Philosophically, I I remember having a feeling, and it had to do with quitting drinking, too. I remember having like this, this, this thing that like about kids, like.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  And thinking about my kids, be like, they didn't like, they didn't ask to be born and come live here.

• 50:27Dr. John Delony?

  I dragged you into this.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? It wasn't like, they're like, please let us in, you know? I'm like, against my better judgment, I'll let you in for a day. It was like, we like dragged them into this situation. So like, we asked them, right? We like asked them, we invited them into this existence that we created. There's some level of, of, you know, there's this Greek principle, like xenia, like a guest host bond. Be like the bond between a, I think it's like something to do with like the flower and a pollinator or something like that. But um, yeah, there is like a guest host bond a little bit, you know? We still like constantly bust our kids balls, but there is a little bit of like, they didn't ask.

• 51:09Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  We did this, so there's a certain obligation now.

• 51:14Dr. John Delony?

  See, I love, I, I, I've never thought through that, but I like on its face, I love that.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 51:21Dr. John Delony?

  I love that.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  That had to do with, you know what it had to do with, one of the reasons I brought it up, it had to do with the feeling of being hung over in the morning. And, and, and, and um, resenting them. Cause you know, when they're real little, they get up real early, resenting them for being up at five. Like, why are you up at five?

• 51:40Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  And just that feeling of like, man, I got a headache, now you're up.

• 51:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  You're not going back to bed.

• 51:47Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  And you know, and you're gonna pull some, you know, furniture around yourself and if I'm not out there watching you, you know, you gotta like get up.

• 51:55Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  And, and I remember just thinking like, how could you have the um, how could you be so arrogant? As like resent them for being awake in the morning, like that's, that's bad xenia.

• 52:08Dr. John Delony?

  Well, and even worse, happy to see you, right?

• 52:11Speaker 00

  First stop.

• 52:12Dr. John Delony?

  How dare you wanna come see?

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:14Dr. John Delony?

  First stop. I chose to stay until 2am and be stupid.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they're sitting there thinking, the minute I get up, I'm going in that guy's room and I'm waking him up. And yeah, and he's bummed.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 52:27Dr. John Delony?

  I'll go, what? Yeah, that's a dude, that's a great point. And I'm, I mean, I think I could extrapolate that out to be married too, like, no, I chose you. I said, yes, I said, I do forever till one of us dies.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:41Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, I could choose for today to not be great, or I could choose to just pick up the towels and get on with the day. Right?

• 52:52Dr. John Delony?

  How do y'all navigate travel, fame, differing? Like, you've got a tension that pulls you here.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:01Dr. John Delony?

  And she says, no, no, no, you're mine.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've often explained that, um, the, the central conflict in our marriage, uh, the central conflict was the travel. A hundred percent. It wasn't like, um, it wasn't like lack of faith, lack of trust. It wasn't finite. It was, it was, it's never been money. It was like the, the central conflict was travel.

• 53:28Dr. John Delony?

  What was underneath that?

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Like another central conflict?

• 53:31Dr. John Delony?

  No, just like the core conflict be like, I miss you or you care about that more than me? Or I wish I was there?

• 53:38Speaker 00

  An unspoken, I miss you.

• 53:40Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  And it would be, uh, it would, it would, it would play out a couple of ways, like, like picture from, picture from my wife's perspective.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  I, I hadn't, early on, I didn't build good limits for myself, so we would have little babies and I'd be like, I remember, I remember at a point saying like, I'm not going to go away for more than two weeks. Because we would go away for three weeks or whatever. Um, when I had, I had little kids, I had three kids one year when I was gone over half of the nights of a year.

• 54:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, that's a lot.

• 54:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a lot. So here you, here you have a person and my wife always worked, she worked through, I mean, she'd take maternity, but she always worked. Very challenging. So, so picture that like here, they have this whole program. Right? And it's like, everybody's getting done what they need to get done, you know? They're like, the, the kids are getting where they need to go. They're doing all the stuff. She's doing her work. And then you come in.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  And you wanna, when I say you, me, like, like you come in, I come in and, and there's this like terrible desire to like to piss on a post.

• 54:53Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:55Dr. John Delony?

  I'm home.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  There's like, it's like, well, I would have done it.

• 54:58Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  And that.

• 55:00Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:00Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  That stuff's tough, man. Um, there, there was this thing early on too, that we had.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  It'd be, I remember my wife saying, um, she's like, if it's not gonna be a big deal when you leave, it's not gonna be a big deal when you come home. What that meant was, what that meant was, it's not as brutal as it seems. What it meant was, you wanna be able to, you wanna be able to be like, oh, shoot, we gotta take off for a week and go do something. And you wanna, you know, you want to be like, everybody's, right? In the program, you take off, you know? But then when you come home, it's not like balloons and stuff. Like you gotta, you gotta like kinda merge back.

• 55:48Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 55:48Speaker 00

  You gotta merge back into the lane. You know what I mean? Like you're on a controlled access highway and you're exiting smoothly, you know? Not a lot of horn honking and like, right? And then when, then you merge back into the family. And, um, and so learning that, learning that.

• 56:07Dr. John Delony?

  Like looking into my house right now, dude.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Like, learning that stuff was different. And I would come in and it's like terrible. Like I, I have a, there's certain areas where I have very, uh, I don't know. I'm, I'm, I like, I like things exceptionally organized in my home space. I like open surfaces. Like, like picture like counters.

• 56:29Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  I don't like things on the counters. Do you know what I mean? So anyways, I would come home and I'd look and let's say I look and, um, someone has taken one of my, like, like a, a knife of mine and cut something on a plate. And I look, I'm like, right? Or they've like scrubbed a cast iron pan with like a soapy Brillo pad.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  I would like, I would come in, I'm so excited and happy to see everybody, but in the next day, I'm a little bit like, what happened here?

• 56:59Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I've got my inspector gadget glasses on.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  Dude, that caused like enormous tension, man.

• 57:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  So now, and I still am not perfect on it, but now I would look and be like, looks like the, I would think to myself, looks like that cast iron pan's got it ruined, dude. But we'll just deal with that quietly later.

• 57:20Dr. John Delony?

  I, I.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  I'm trivializing it by coming up with goofy examples, but, but, and then, and then bigger ones. You know, I don't mean to like, it's not like pans and knives, but those are.

• 57:30Dr. John Delony?

  My path is.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Those are examples.

• 57:32Dr. John Delony?

  I have a, I have not a picture of what it's gonna be when I get home. I have a sensation that I'm seeking, I think it's gonna feel a certain way. And I walk in the door and my wife's in the middle of a project she's working on. I got my daughter's doing this, my son's trying to get his chemistry homework done, but he forgot to do this. And they got a cross country thing. And it doesn't feel like I thought it was gonna feel. And so I immediately goes to, to, why isn't this feeling like I wanted to? Oh, there's this thing and there's this thing. Or the other, I, I try to manufacture it. So he's in there, my son's working and I'm like, hey, you wanna go? He's like, dad, I'm doing homework. And it took, it's taken a season for my wife and I'd be like, hey, there is a flow to this house.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:14Dr. John Delony?

  And when you exit out, we're glad that you're doing that, right? It's providing all this. But like, I like that term, like you have to exit back in. You can't just ramrod through and be like, all right, everybody. Cause she's like.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  You gotta check your lane.

• 58:27Dr. John Delony?

  Well, that is, cause there's like, that homework assignment still has to get done. And the meal that's halfway done, we can't just throw it away and just go out to dinner, cause you're home. It's like, there's a rhythm to this thing and learning that rhythm and checking my own guts as I walk in the door. Like this rhythm doesn't owe me something, right? It doesn't need to perform for me.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  That's an interesting point, man. I never, I hadn't, uh, the point you make about that you're expecting it to feel, and it didn't feel the way it did. You know.

• 58:57Dr. John Delony?

  That's like the most calm.

• 58:58Speaker 00

  That's a good way of putting it.

• 58:59Dr. John Delony?

  First hunters, first job, the first time I make a big sale. Like the, I remember distinctly, it was such a powerful thing. Like I'm driving in a suburban to a, a book signing at a Barnes and Noble kind of thing. And Dave calls my, the phone of the publisher who hands it back to me like this and I get it and he's screaming, you're number one, ah, and I was like, oh, we did it, man. And we do this book signing thing.

• 59:27Dr. John Delony?

  And I went back to hotel and then I called my wife and I was like, hi, good night. And then it's just, oh, this, I don't know what I thought this was gonna feel like, but it just feels like yesterday, except I have this thing now, right? And nothing changed. And I, I remember telling a buddy the next couple of days, I get now why people do drugs. Cause it's like, or people drink too much when they're on the road. Like I get it now because it doesn't feel like you think it's going to. And so I gotta either take away the way I feel now, or I gotta try to prop something up.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  I, I had a friend that she had some, uh, I don't wanna get off on this, but I had a friend that had addiction issues. And I remember her explaining, uh, someone I knew in school, her explaining like, uh, the first time we're doing like, first time doing hard drugs. And afterward, she's like, hold on a minute, you mean, I'm supposed to just like, you mean, I can just feel that way all the time?

• 1:00:19Dr. John Delony?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Why would I, like, why would I not do that? Like a, like this rational thing, you know, it's a rational decision about it.

• 1:00:28Dr. John Delony?

  But we talked to people in recovery, like that's the, that's the, the inner secret of the inner, uh, inner core of recovery is, no, that works. It's incredible. It'll kill you and take everything.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Oh, recognize it, yeah.

• 1:00:41Dr. John Delony?

  It served a role, like it works.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  A, a thing I, in, in thinking about this thing about being gone and, and these complications of the marriage.

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  What I feel compelled now that I have to bring up is I have a number of friends who got, and you know, rolled up in the war on terror.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  When I say that, I mean, service members.

• 1:01:06Dr. John Delony?

  Got deployed, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  You know, and then, man,

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  all this is like, child's play.

• 1:01:15Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  Do you follow me?

• 1:01:17Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Like, we're talking, oh, I was gone two weeks.

• 1:01:19Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  And then you realize you get into, like, a lot of guys, man, they weren't gone two weeks. I got a friend, I think he was telling me that in the first, in the first three years after 9/11, in a three-year period, in which he had kids, a three-year period, he was home for 200 days. He says, in those 200 days, you're not really home.

• 1:01:39Dr. John Delony?

  No, you're not.

• 1:01:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right? And then I'm like, yeah, man, it's just like, I just want to, like, I feel obligated to acknowledge that. Having a number of friends went through that, because like, to sit and talk about being gone, and you're like, you're kind of like, out hunting and fishing, you're being well compensated.

• 1:01:57Dr. John Delony?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:01:57Dr. John Delony?

  Or I'm on a stage.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, yeah, people come, they're like, dude, I love your stuff.

• 1:02:01Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  And you go on, and just to think of some guy sitting at home being like, you pompous.

• 1:02:07Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:02:08Dr. John Delony?

  Totally, totally.

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  Like, I have to acknowledge it, because just how, I remember being down, I've told this story a bunch of times, but I got invited down to talk to a special forces group at Fort Bragg one time. And I remember sitting there, people said, it was enough years ago, there's still a phone book around. I'm sitting there talking to this, he's a Green Bay captain, I remember he's, he's, um, happens to have a phone book with like, the Yellow Pages. And I remember him grabbing this big chunk of pages, like, in the Yellow Pages, like, a big chunk, like, a finger-thick section, him saying to me, that's divorce attorneys.

• 1:02:44Dr. John Delony?

  Wow, yeah.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  Right, in Fort Bragg, you know, and I was kind of like, oh, yeah, I get that. You know, I get that. These guys are just gone, man.

• 1:02:52Dr. John Delony?

  They're gone.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  They're gone.

• 1:02:53Dr. John Delony?

  And they come back a different person than they loved. And their kids are two or three years older.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:02:58Dr. John Delony?

  And they're different human beings. Their spouse is different.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it's like, I just, anytime now, and, and I, I, you know, anytime now, when discussing this issue, I just, I, I feel obligated to acknowledge that it's like, some people might be sitting there being like, it must be tough.

• 1:03:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Ooh, you were hunting with a film crew. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, my wife, I remember, another important thing that my wife said, uh, she's like, man, you gotta be very, very careful who you complain to.

• 1:03:25Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Well, and, but, but, but again, the other side of that is a thing that plagues everybody, but I think it plagues men especially these days is just profound loneliness. Right? Not having somebody that I can complain to. Or to be like, I just need to say this sucks. Right?

• 1:03:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I, I know of examples like that. I don't, I don't want to name names, but I know of examples like that in my life where I do look and, um, I do look and I'm like, man, I wonder if, uh, what their experience in life might have been like had they taken on that reason to put your hat on and grab a briefcase.

• 1:04:06Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:04:08Dr. John Delony?

  Well, it's

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  As much as they'd love, would they would tell you about the freedom they have? I'm like, I don't know, man. It might have been better if you had to grab the briefcase.

• 1:04:18Dr. John Delony?

  Or, I mean, it's easy to say, look how sore I'm not because I'm not lifting weights. And the other side of it is like, yeah, but look how strong I got year after year. Get under that squat rack and go on again. Right? And so you can say that, great, but I'll, I'll take this temporary discomfort, this constant obligation for the, what, what comes on the back end of that thing. Man. Okay. So I, you're a historian. It's the last thing I'll, I'll ask you. I could talk to you all day, man. And by the way, for folks listening.

• 1:04:51Dr. John Delony?

  Like, you talked earlier about it's 22 minutes of an episode. And there's always some tag that you've written, or some tag where you've thought through something.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:05:03Dr. John Delony?

  And you're knowledgeable about where you are, the history of where you are. You remind me of, I remember being so disappointed. I followed like the metal band Pantera around when I was a kid. Like, I was obsessed, obsessed. And I remember being so disillusioned.

• 1:05:21Speaker 00

  Pantera guy?

• 1:05:22Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, man. Pathologically so. I remember being so disillusioned.

• 1:05:26Speaker 00

  Is that a lot different than being a big Metallica guy? Cause I'm older than you, I'm assuming, I'm quite a bit older than you.

• 1:05:30Dr. John Delony?

  We're, we're close.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  How old are you?

• 1:05:32Dr. John Delony?

  I'm 48.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm 40 years old.

• 1:05:34Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, so you're, yeah, my sister was in Metallica. Yeah, probably. They were like Metallica's anger younger brother.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

• 1:05:40Dr. John Delony?

  Cause older brother got all the attention. Yeah.

• 1:05:44Dr. John Delony?

  But I remember when their guitarist, who had big red beard, the whole thing. He came out with a column in Guitar World magazine. Talking about like different scales and keys and how to play. And I remember thinking like, oh, I thought you just like jammed, man. You know what I mean? And it's like, bro, like, like, oh.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  It was a level of professionalism?

• 1:06:07Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, like, oh, you like know what you're doing, right? Like, you all have song structure and you play in time. And so, but like, you can only be philosophical and poetic when you put the time in, right? And so I think like the most, like, the, one of my favorite things about watching your work from afar and reading your work is what a historian you are.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:06:31Dr. John Delony?

  And this is a question I love to ask. I grew up working in the university, so I love sitting with historians. And I look at them almost as like oracles, like future tellers. So if you look backwards and you've gone through, man, your history knowledge, and we'll link to all that stuff, but your, your history knowledge of the United States, political movements, land movements, like economic movements. If you look forward, what's pretty exciting for you and what scares you to death for the world that our kids are about to have?

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  Oh, man. Um, first off, I you know, like, um, you know, the difference between a cook and a chef? Okay, there's there's difference in a writer and a historian.

• 1:07:16Dr. John Delony?

  That's true.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  I appreciate it.

• 1:07:17Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  But yeah, I'm a writer. I know historians. I'm a writer.

• 1:07:22Dr. John Delony?

  That's fair.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  Who's very interested in history.

• 1:07:24Dr. John Delony?

  That's fair.

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  I'm a cook, not a chef.

• 1:07:26Dr. John Delony?

  That's fair.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  I'm a writer, not a historian.

• 1:07:28Dr. John Delony?

  That's fair.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Uh,

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  a thing I'm very concerned about is polarization. Political polarization in the country horrified.

• 1:07:41Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Speaker 00

  Horrified. I can.

• 1:07:44Dr. John Delony?

  It's horrific.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  I can make myself feel better by looking and saying, well, there was the Civil War.

• 1:07:50Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  There was the late sixties and and Vietnam, which cut a, you know, rift through the country. Um, in the fifties, you could, uh, hang a man semi publicly from a tree and face no, um, legal recourse.

• 1:08:10Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 00

  If you live in the right zip code.

• 1:08:12Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  Right? That's pretty divisive.

• 1:08:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  So maybe it's not so bad. It just is really scary to me.

• 1:08:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  Except when I stop and look at it, though, what is scary to me is what I understand to be true from the reading I do online.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  By and large, though, I don't see it reflected in my lived experience. Meaning, and this is the thing I like to bring up. I live on a, you know, I live on like a, there's like a, it's a road. It's a public road, but I live like a, like a circular drive.

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  I'm not, I'm not kidding you when I tell you this. I could look around my area and I don't know how any of those people vote. I don't, I don't know how they vote.

• 1:09:03Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  I know that they would do anything to defend my family, to defend my home. To if there was a problem, any of them is gonna run over. Likewise, I would run to any of them.

• 1:09:17Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  In any reason, if something happened and their kids needed to come, they would be brought into our house. Like they would be take care, you're right, taken care of. I would without question, without even thinking, like if something all of a sudden happened and we had to run off somewhere. My wife and I had to go to deal with some emergency and our neighbors like, we'll take care of the kids. I wouldn't even think about it.

• 1:09:36Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  I don't know how they vote.

• 1:09:37Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  So there's that, right? We still hold that, but I'm just getting really concerned about terrible polarization. And then also a, and I really don't wanna cite examples at all.

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  Cause it's just gonna lead it in a different direction, but like a

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  a denial of of of objective reality.

• 1:10:06Dr. John Delony?

  One million percent, yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  Like I still believe that there

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  there are areas where I feel like there are objective realities.

• 1:10:15Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  And and I get uncomfortable in toying with those objective realities. And I see cases where my kids

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  will come from school and they will, and they don't even know, they don't even believe it, but they're throwing out. I heard that.

• 1:10:32Dr. John Delony?

  Yes.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  I heard that, and it's things that are just like objectively false.

• 1:10:37Dr. John Delony?

  Nonsensical, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's the definition of of, not the definition, but that's the definition of mental illness is a divorce from reality.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, right.

• 1:10:46Dr. John Delony?

  And that's the whole ecosystem.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  It could be a thing about nine 11.

• 1:10:49Dr. John Delony?

  It's it's it's madhouse, right? It's madhouse.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and I and it's, I almost find it being like a thing that like makes it hard to keep my cool.

• 1:10:59Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  Um, and so I worry about, I have, you know, other concerns, like you, you know, you wonder with AI, like what the hell they're gonna do for a living. But they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out, but that, but but the country.

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  The country going through something like what we went through in the late sixties.

• 1:11:23Speaker 00

  Something like we went through in the eighteen sixties.

• 1:11:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  That scares the hell out of me.

• 1:11:28Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I'm with you on that. Yeah, I'm with you on that. The, the, not inability, but the unwillingness to say,

• 1:11:38Dr. John Delony?

  I changed my mind, or I was wrong, or I actually thought this, but this is what happened, or I voted for this, but this is what's actually happening.

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:11:47Dr. John Delony?

  Then inability, a refusal to say, alright, I'm, I'm gonna get off that boat then. That's the part that I, I can't wrap my head around.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:11:54Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Dr. John Delony?

  Um, because all of us, if we're trying to go, you know, Arby's down on the corner and we go the wrong way, we'll turn around and go the other way, right? But for some reason, I, I can't, I can't put my finger on it. It doesn't make sense to me. We just keep hitting the gas and going the wrong way.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:09Dr. John Delony?

  Like, hey, but Arby's is right here. And we're like, we're going that way, dude.

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Dr. John Delony?

  And, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't have a, I get scared because I don't have a psychology for it. I don't, I don't know if that's a right way to say that. I don't have a, I don't have a mental model for that.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean? It's just like, dude, what are you, what are you, what are you talking about? Right?

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  And I think there's also a, uh, uh, uh, seems to be a growing tendency, maybe I'm wrong. Seems to be a growing tendency that you would condemn.

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  That, that, that every, every human, every person has a suite of beliefs.

• 1:12:42Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  And those beliefs are full of contradictions.

• 1:12:44Dr. John Delony?

  Of course.

• 1:12:45Speaker 00

  But. And, and they change, they're evolving all the time. But this thing where someone would look and go, within your suite of beliefs, is a belief

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  that I see and I will condemn you for having.

• 1:13:00Dr. John Delony?

  And it wipes out all.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  Every, I condemn every aspect of you.

• 1:13:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Speaker 00

  Because within your suite of beliefs is one that I've decided I condemn. Now that belief could be something horrific that deserves to be condemned. But I think that it could also be, they grew up in a different place.

• 1:13:16Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  They have a different set of experiences, their family's different, their finances are different.

• 1:13:20Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Speaker 00

  Different people talk to them. Like, I don't know how they arrived at that.

• 1:13:24Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah. But I'm not gonna condemn the guy over it.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Dr. John Delony?

  There's something powerful about being curious.

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:31Dr. John Delony?

  Like, tell me more about that, as opposed to saying, oh, now I've got you figured out. I can either put you in this category or this one.

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Dr. John Delony?

  And when the reverse is true, all of these other things I'm not okay with. But you got that one? All right, all overlook. All of this, because we're aligned on that one. It's like, that's madness.

• 1:13:49Speaker 00

  There's a flip side.

• 1:13:50Dr. John Delony?

  Madness, right?

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, there is that.

• 1:13:52Dr. John Delony?

  Madness.

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  There is that.

• 1:13:54Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I've wrestled with how to explain to my kids the importance of objective reality. When the picture they're getting that success is, just deny reality to the end, right? Write it off into the sunset.

• 1:14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Dr. John Delony?

  And you can kind of shape it however you want. And like, it'll catch you at some point. They're like, I don't think it will.

• 1:14:15Speaker 00

  It's been with having kids, it's been fun. It's been fun to see that they'll have opinions that you don't share.

• 1:14:27Dr. John Delony?

  That's my favorite thing.

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  And how, and like, and me sitting there, like, and, you know, you want almost like a tag?

• 1:14:33Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  And you're like, easy.

• 1:14:35Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  Because this is the future, man.

• 1:14:38Dr. John Delony?

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  Well, and, and And like that, like, these kids are gonna have spouses.

• 1:14:42Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  And those spouses are gonna have families.

• 1:14:45Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  Like, you're gonna be hearing some opinions that you don't agree with.

• 1:14:49Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  And you better learn how to be like, that's interesting.

• 1:14:52Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, well, and why not look in the mirror and be like, what is it about a 10 year old's thought on whatever? That sets me as a grown man off? If I'm, if my beliefs are that fragile and my self-worth is that dependent on this 10 year old? Who probably still believes in dragons or whatever.

• 1:15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:12Dr. John Delony?

  If it's that fragile, I probably need to go talk to somebody. Like, I need to go do some work, right?

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, there are some things that they've floated that we have said, um, not in this household.

• 1:15:23Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, that's, that's, and that's true.

• 1:15:25Speaker 00

  It's like, not here, it's not.

• 1:15:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But, you know, getting into like, whatever, like, you know, their perspective on what, you know? How our country should be handling itself in the Middle East or whatever. I'm like, I'm open for some, I'm open for some level of individual interpretation.

• 1:15:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, to a limit. To a limit, to a limit. What excites you about the future for them?

• 1:15:49Speaker 00

  Oh, man, um.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  I like to think about, uh, I really like to think about this is very granular. I like to think about the, the, the sort of outdoor adventures.

• 1:16:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  You know, that they'll go on to have. Um, I only am just now starting to think about the second act. Which would be, you know, like, my boy will be 15, my oldest will be 15. It's like, it's not, it's closer than it is, what am I trying to say? Like, they're, they're gonna have families.

• 1:16:26Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:16:28Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29Speaker 00

  He's 16, man.

• 1:16:30Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:16:31Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  This is, this is closer than it is far away or whatever, I can't.

• 1:16:39Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

• 1:16:42Dr. John Delony?

  It's not.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  He's been with us for 16 years.

• 1:16:44Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  When that amount of time has passed again, there's a high likelihood.

• 1:16:48Dr. John Delony?

  He's got a family, he's got his own ecosystem, yeah.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is, you know.

• 1:16:52Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  And, and so we're already starting to think about like, what does that look like? I got a friend who's a little farther ahead of me where his kids are in college and out of college. And, um, and what I think that he's done very well, and he's proud of it, is, um, he's still a big part of his kid's life. Right? And they like, call him about buying a house, they call him about buying a car, they call him about relationship issues. And, and he's got four, they're all out of the house. And he says, you know, I've talked to all of them multiple times a week. And I'm like, he's like a concierge.

• 1:17:28Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  Do you know what I'm following me?

• 1:17:30Dr. John Delony?

  But that means he was a, and I say this not in a, in an eye-rolly way. That means he's been a safe place of wisdom and he could hold their attention their whole childhood. And so he's a, not like, that's, that's a trustworthy guy, you know what I mean?

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  Oh, not over, no, not a lick of overbearing.

• 1:17:45Dr. John Delony?

  Which is incredible.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I now, I know you asked me what excites me for them, I'm talking about what excites me for me, but

• 1:17:51Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, forget them.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  It would be cool.

• 1:17:55Dr. John Delony?

  I'm starting to think about that. It would be very cool to have, right, to earn that respect. I, I want-

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Where they don't just split. I just kind of split. When I split, I split.

• 1:18:04Dr. John Delony?

  Yes, same. I want, when my son thinks, I'm gonna take my son out fishing, I want him to think, "Oh, we gotta call dad." Not, "We gotta call dad. We have to." Right?

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Dr. John Delony?

  And-

• 1:18:16Speaker 00

  That guy tells all about how he used to catch them.

• 1:18:18Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, exactly. Well, and I want him to tell my son, "Dad's gonna tell all kind of crazy stories. That's what he does." I like that part of it, but there's something about, my wife, um, several years ago, man, he came, he was in seventh grade. He was, he would always come down and his hair would be crazy and I would ask like, "Dude, turn your shirt around, fix this, fix this." And every day was the same. And I remember my wife, she came in one day and I was just picking him apart and she said, "You would not hang out with somebody who every interaction was eighteen things you need to fix about yourself."

• 1:18:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53Dr. John Delony?

  And I was like, "I'm wholly unlikable. I'm unlikable." You know what I mean? And I can wrap it up in, "Well, he needs to be ready for the..." So we sat down, we went to, we used to go to breakfast every single, every week. Went to Waffle House, dude. It was our diabetes trip every week. And at one of our breakfasts, I told him, I said, "Hey, I'm out on, like, the middle school wolves are gonna take care of your wardrobe and your hygiene and whatever. Like, and I want you to know, I love you and you can always come home, but I'm turning you loose. I'm gonna stop mentioning, you wanna grow your hair, grow your hair. You wanna not brush your teeth, number, like, whatever." And I remember at the end of his eighth grade, we had had like his old friends came, we all had to get together. And I was like, "Y'all failed me." Cause they were like, "We accept everyone." Like everyone, I was like, "Man, you need some old bullies like we had, right?

• 1:19:38Dr. John Delony?

  They're just mean, but, um, and not really, we don't. But, but like, uh, I focused on what hills do you need to die on. And like, like, "Hey, hey, in this house, we don't talk to each other like that, right? And we got that on the, tech that on the wall." But- I wouldn't listen to that, but what do you like about it, right? Or I'll get tickets to that show, but you're gonna have to show me why this is a good show. And vice versa, I took him to a punk rock show recently and I was like, hey, he's into 90s country, he loves it. I failed him at some level, but he's into it. But I was like, I need you to go to this smosh pit show.

• 1:20:11Speaker 00

  You know where you live nearby, right?

• 1:20:12Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, I know, I know, it's in the air, literally, it's in the air. I had an old weather radio, when he was out in the woods by himself, he would turn it real low when he was hunting. And it would only catch the one 90s country station. And he's, Dad, you know who Garth Brooks is? I was like, ah, yes, Dad. But I was like, hey, you need to come to this show with your old man, this is for me. And he's like, all right, Dad, I'll do it. So I like, oh, yeah, that, that sounds awesome. Like, I wanna...

• 1:20:37Dr. John Delony?

  Man.

• 1:20:39Dr. John Delony?

  And I hate to say this, but, I don't hate to say this.

• 1:20:43Dr. John Delony?

  That's one of the big reasons I exercise as much as I do. I remember my first, like, major climbing up mountains elk hunting trip several years ago. And I was like, oh, if I don't do something different with my health, I've got about seven more years of this. And this is, this was too awesome. And there's too many memories and too much fun and too much, like, I need to take care of myself on a regular basis so I can do this for another 20 years instead of number seven. And I like that. Like, I'm gonna be able to go fishing with my kids. Thanks for coming to hang out, brother. Appreciate you, man.