296. 5 steps to becoming an assertive communicator

Being an assertive communicator is so much more than just being demanding or confident, it comes down to our emotional ease, how we hold ourselves, how we make others feel, how we frame even the smallest of questions. It's also not something that is taught to us and if it doesn't come naturally, we have to learn on our own. In this episode I break down the FIVE scientifically proven ways to be a more assertive communicator, including: The power of the pause How assertive communicators use their body Self authoring language Visualisation! Visualisation! Visualisation! How to leverage the Dunning-Kruger Effect Plus 7 rapid fire tips you may or may not know! Happy (assertive) listening! ORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 0:00Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we are talking about an episode that was requested by so many of you after an episode I did maybe a year ago even on how to have better conversations. And in that episode, I alluded to this idea of different kind of communication types, one of them being an assertive communicator. And so in this episode, I want to circle back onto that.

• 2:19Jemma Sbeg?

  I want to circle back to this idea and talk about How you can be an assertive communicator? How can someone become someone who is confident in what they have and confident in what they're saying? Using some pretty amazing principles of psychology. So many of you have asked, when is this episode coming? And I honestly kept putting it on the back burner and like delaying it for whatever reason. But this week, I don't know what it was. It really felt like the week to finally break it down. So today, we're going to go through my five tips to be an assertive communicator, but also just a convincing persuasive communicator in general.

• 3:03Jemma Sbeg?

  It's so interesting to me because we are never really taught how to be persuasive or how to ask for what we want in a way that will actually get us what we want, but also not frustrate people or make someone angry or upset. Sure, you know, maybe we did public speaking in high school. Maybe you did like debating and you had to get up and give a speech. But from my memory, when I did those things, you would kind of get up and do it. And then they would grade you on the skills you already had without really giving you an opportunity to improve. Like, I cannot actually remember anyone giving me legitimate tips or a course.

• 3:46Jemma Sbeg?

  It was just being judged on like your pre-existing ability. And that pre-existing ability, how we communicate, is largely formed by our parents, how they communicated, what their professions were, your innate confidence level. But being an assertive communicator, it can be taught. It is not just for people who are inherently self-assured. It's also not just for extroverts either. It's for people who are introverts. It's for people who are shy. It's for people who are people pleasers. And it's a really valuable skill to have. I think it's one of those skills that should probably be mandatory. I always think that in high school, we need to have like an intro to life one O one course. And in that course, you know, you should learn about taxes.

• 4:31Jemma Sbeg?

  You should learn about how to find a good mechanic, how to set boundaries, financial literacy. And I think you should also learn. How to be an assertive communicator. There is not a single profession that does not require it. And recent research that I was finding when I was investigating this topic has also discovered that being an assertive communicator, it doesn't just help relationships, it doesn't just help you in your career, obviously. It also makes you less stressed. It reduces cortisol arousal. It makes you healthier. It makes you healthier as an individual. So I'm going to give you five scientifically founded and psychologically backed tips to help you not feel ashamed for asking for what you want, how to make your preferences

• 5:12Jemma Sbeg?

  known, how to be someone who others will listen to, and just so much more. So, without further ado, my lovely listeners, let's get into it.

• 5:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Let's begin by just really articulating what an assertive communicator is, because I have already alluded to the fact that it's likely different to what you are currently imagining. So, researchers largely agree that there are four different communication styles when it comes to tone and attitude. There is passive, there is aggressive, there is passive-aggressive, and there is assertive. Assertive sometimes in our minds can be confused with aggressive. We assume that it might come off as domineering, demanding, selfish, loud, arrogant, like, I want this, I want it now, if I don't get it, we will have issues, there is no compromise. Assertive communication really means that you advocate for yourself.

• 6:14Jemma Sbeg?

  You don't self-silence, and you try and get your point across honestly, and with kindness, but also self-assurance. It sounds like, I'm going to invite you to see it from my perspective. It would help the team if you did this. I would appreciate if you didn't do that. I'm going to sit with this one, I'm going to think about this because I'm not feeling it currently. There is actually a lot of joy and a lot of peace in being an assertive communicator, because I think implicitly you understand that not everyone is going to agree with you, not everyone is going to do what you want them to do, but you have made your point. You have communicated it and that sits really well with you.

• 6:57Jemma Sbeg?

  An assertive communicator is often times actually the most persuasive because they also don't use threats. They don't use guilt, they don't use demands to get their point across. They use inspiration, they use encouragement, they use personality. Another defining point is that they often rely on non-verbal cues that are very welcoming and which activate people's mirror neurons, which we're going to speak about in just a second. But the research has shown that this ability is really what makes assertive communicators so persuasive. And they do things that people don't often think are persuasive. They speak slower, they also use more of their vocal range.

• 7:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Side note, this was really, this was quite an interesting piece of research that I discovered when I was looking into this. And it's that people with more empathy also tend to use more of their vocal range. And a paper from two thousand nine actually found that diagnosed psychopaths actually have a reduced vocal range. So their voice is more removable, it doesn't flow, it doesn't go up and down. So there you go, a really interesting sign of both an assertive and empathetic person, but also communicator. They use their voice, they use it almost like an instrument, something that flows and surrounds people. And I really don't think that being assertive and being empathetic is something that can be separated. They actually go hand in hand.

• 8:25Jemma Sbeg?

  Let's talk about the other three types of communicators. Aggressive communicators, they are forceful, they are immovable. They interrupt, they yell, they use threats, they find it hard to be silent. They also use less eye contact. Passive communicators are often very indirect and submissive. They really just avoid expressing their needs and they downplay their feelings and they avoid conflict. It's also highly associated with people who are conflict averse or who are chronic people pleasers, chronic apologizers as well, which we actually have an episode about um coming up very, very soon. And finally, passive aggressive communicators. This is the least successful communicator.

• 9:07Jemma Sbeg?

  And that's because it combines the worst aspects of the two previous communication styles. They are often hostile, they're indirect, they don't say what they mean, they rely heavily on silence, the silent treatment, and also guilt to support their unrealistic demands. So those are the four communication styles and we often begin to develop our communication style, not through an intentional effort, but through outside influence. So family, culture, early experiences, our environment, which is actually a good thing. I know it sounds like, oh, none of this is within my control. But it also means that a lot of it is environmental, so it can be changed.

• 9:50Jemma Sbeg?

  So without further ado, let's talk about how we can change them. Let's talk about those five tips I spoke about before. So my first tip for becoming an assertive communicator, tip one, is that assertive communicators know how to value silence more than their words. And it doesn't mean they use the silent treatment. It means they appreciate the pause. Pausing in a conversation actually brings you back into control. Now, I don't think that conversations are necessarily like a battlefield for being in charge and it's like this huge conflict. But a pause, I think, brings you back into control over yourself, which is what's really essential here.

• 10:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Have you ever, I don't know, have you ever had that experience of being in a really important conversation with someone? And you find you just can't stop talking, like words are just spilling out of your mouth before you can even think of them, like there is no, there's nothing between your brain and the words coming out of your mouth. I remember doing this really important interview when I was twenty. And as soon as one of the interviewers asked me a question, like I just said the first thing that I was thinking. And it normally wasn't the best thing. And I think if I had just learnt the power of the two second pause, it would have had two really important effects. A, it would have shown the interviewers that I was actually considering their question a little bit.

• 11:16Jemma Sbeg?

  And B, I would have answered better. I think a lot of us are innately very afraid of silence in a conversation, but pausing really just ensures that you say what you mean. And there's this other part of that as well, pauses, silence. That is where meaning takes hold. It is really hard to know what someone really means or is saying in a conversation if you are constantly talking and having to make these assessments on the fly. This is why I think we typically only fully realise what someone was actually saying to us after a conversation is over. And that sometimes that's really frustrating because suddenly like you have all your best comebacks, like you think of all the things that you wish you had said.

• 11:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Pauses are so effective in that sense because you can really hear the things that aren't being said. That's what silence does. And it also says, I'm comfortable with silence because I'm comfortable with myself, which is a particularly powerful message that you wanna send if you're trying to be assertive and you're trying to advocate for yourself. So here's how to apply this practically. When you feel yourself getting very, maybe running away with your thoughts, or you're reaching dead ends, or you feel like you're losing control of the conversation, pause for three seconds before every sentence, before you say anything. Or you can create a physical cue that you need to do first before you speak.

• 12:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I was reading this really amazing book recently, I cannot remember the name, but the author talks about how she always nods her head twice before replying to someone. So someone will say something to her and she'll go, and then she'll reply, because it positively reinforces that she's listening, but it also allows her to reassess her words. Assertive communicators, they know the power of the pause. Tip number two. Learn how to regulate your body. It is just as important as what you have to say. Your body language is is language. It is saying something. And if you feel like you're about to burst out of your skin, or there is this hidden tension that you can't control,

• 13:27Jemma Sbeg?

  most of the time that will come across and it can make you seem aggressive or anxious, which could be interpreted as passive, neither of which we want. We're gonna regulate that. Before you go into a conversation or you go to do a speech or whatever it is, I want you to do this exercise with me that I personally use. This is the exact exercise I do before. Every speech, every podcast recording, every live show. It is an excellent way to regulate your body. So you stand up. You let your arms go completely slack. You let your shoulders fall as far as they want to, as far as they can, without any effort.

• 14:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Then I want you to notice your eyebrows, notice your forehead. Release any tension, consciously release the muscles around your mouth, around your eyes, just let them, let them go as well. And I want you to sway gently from side to side. Maybe hum to yourself, keep your eyes closed. Roll your shoulders back then forward. Take three deep breaths and open your eyes. This exercise works because of the principles of progressive relaxation. It makes you feel more in touch with your body. It means that you can regulate it, it means that you have a baseline level of stability. But that ritual is also equally soothing, so it gets you really in the headspace.

• 14:56Jemma Sbeg?

  So this is the pre-communication exercise, this is the before. But when it comes to actually communicating and using your body language in an effective way during a conversation, we really need to talk about this expert, his name is David Phillips, and he has spent Literally years analyzing over five thousand successful public speakers. And he has noticed that there is a few things that they really do. And which you might not notice they're doing, but you are nonetheless being influenced by. So the first thing they do is that they stop themselves from hunching. They keep their shoulders back. They open up their body. It invites people in. They raise their chin. They also lean towards whoever they're speaking to, which actually gives the impression of confidence

• 15:41Jemma Sbeg?

  and feeling relaxed as opposed to tension and leaning away. If you think about it in nature, if you're turning away from someone, if you're moving away from them, you feel threatened. If you're leaning towards them, you feel safe and that makes someone else feel safe. Two other things that they do. The first thing is that successful assertive communicators tilt their head. Imagine someone saying something to you that's really, really sad and really, really awful like, I don't know, I have cancer or my boyfriend just broke up with me. You immediately go for the head tilt. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, that's so awful. Because for some reason, it's an indicator of empathy. It's a silent way of displaying like, I'm thinking about you, I care about you.

• 16:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Now, the final thing that assertive communicators do that David Phillips noticed was something called a Duchenne smile. So a Duchenne smile is a type of genuine grin that moves somebody's entire face, not just their mouth. So this kind of smile, it was discovered, or I should say first named by a French neurologist called Julien Duchenne back in the mid nineteenth century. And he basically realized, just through interacting with people, there are two kinds of smiles. The Duchenne smile, the non-Duchenne smile. One involves the use of all the muscles in your face, in your forehead, around your eyes, around your mouth.

• 17:07Jemma Sbeg?

  The other smile, the non-Duchenne smile, just uses your mouth. It's a very inauthentic kind of smile, a very coy kind of smile. If you think about the Mona Lisa, best example of a non-Duchenne smile. But what they have found after the naming of this smile is that people who present a Duchenne smile. It serves a really important function. It makes you seem more friendly. It makes you more likeable. People are more likely to agree with you. And it just makes you seem like a more assertive, kind person. The mood from this also really shifts. So you may notice that once you perform a Duchenne smile, the other person smiles back at you. And this is the work of what we call mirror neurons. So we talked about this before.

• 17:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Mirror neurons, they're a specific kind of brain cell that basically is essential for empathy. And what it does is when someone else performs an action to you, this part of your brain, these cells automatically are firing. And it essentially wants to perform that action back to that person. Someone smiles, you find yourself smiling. Someone looks disgusted, you find yourself also looking disgusted. It's this kind of weird neurological way that we feel connected and bonded to each other through that exchange of behaviors. And so if you wanna really be assertive and if you wanna be convincing,

• 18:38Jemma Sbeg?

  what you have to do is perform the kind of body language that you think or you wish someone was gonna perform back to you. What's the kind of environment, the physical environment that you want associated with this conversation? The easiest way to create that is to perform those behaviors first and kind of lead by example. So this is your reminder. Your words really do matter, but your body language, what your body is saying, might just matter more. Okay, we are going to take a short break. But when we return, I have three final tips for you. So stay with us.

• 19:18Jemma Sbeg?

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• 20:00Jemma Sbeg?

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• 20:25Speaker 03

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• 21:10Speaker 03

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• 22:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, we're talking about the five ways to transform yourself into an assertive communicator. Tip number three, make it about you. If you want something done, or you want to convince someone of some kind of point, it's actually not about them. This is a conversation for you. This is your attempt to get your point across. This is you communicating something that you value. So the way that you can make it about you is that, of course, we can do things like use I-statements. I feel, I expected, I assumed, I saw. We also want to switch from people-pleasing to something called self-authorship. Self-authorship is not demanding. It just works to articulate our perspective,

• 23:28Jemma Sbeg?

  our self-concept by essentially using phrases that reflect our self-definition. And it uses these phrases as a way to say, hey, humanize me. Know that I'm my own person. Know that I respect myself, but I want to work with you on that. So some of the statements that activate a self-authorship perspective, or the kind of language that we would want to be using are things like, this doesn't align with how I want to work. I've thought about it, and I'm not choosing what feels right for me, so I'm going to change my mind. I really value your perspective, but I've thought about what this means for me,

• 24:14Jemma Sbeg?

  and it doesn't actually meet my needs. Something you may notice about these kind of statements, they imply self-reflection, not just an opinion, not just a guess. Like, they are saying, I have done deep thinking. I'm not just immediately dismissing you. And they also contain an essential boundary. They're saying, thank you, but no, thank you. It is very hard to argue with someone when what they're expressing is personal to them. And it's very hard to implicitly say, I don't agree, because it comes off as an insult to our personhood if we frame things in a way of self-authorship. Like, imagine someone saying, I'm choosing what feels right for me, and you saying, well, I don't like that.

• 24:58Jemma Sbeg?

  I disagree. It feels unnatural. It makes the other person seem like the asshole. So if you want to be more assertive, make statements like this part of your vocabulary. I'm going to give you a few other examples because I feel like, once you hear them being said, it's easier to say them themselves. Here are some examples. This may disappoint you, but it's what I need to do. I've spent time reflecting, and this is an important boundary for me. It's really important for me to follow through on what I value. I respect your opinion, but I am standing by my choice. Can you just see how powerful these are? They're not insulting, they're not angry, they're just assertive.

• 25:40Jemma Sbeg?

  These statements are so measured. They're also quite personal, they're quite intimate. Because you're kind of letting someone know your core values. You're letting someone observe your thought process. And it shows that, you know, well, you're not going to be forced to act in a way that is against your values because you think about them and you care about them deeply. But you're also not going to get mad and argue about it either. Like, this is not up for discussion. So using self-authorship language, incredibly effective. Tip number four, visualize. If you want to be an assertive communicator, visualize how you want the conversation to go. Visualize how you're going to handle yourself.

• 26:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Visualize the best communicator you know, try and embody them. Visualize how you want the other person to react. Visualization, especially if you're quite anxious when you talk to others, it works because the brain often can't distinguish between imagination and reality. It gets us in a lot of trouble sometimes. This is a case where it really works in our favor. When you vividly picture yourself having a conversation and you are calm and you are clear and you are confident, you activate the same neural pathways that would be firing if you were actually doing it. And this kind of mental rehearsal helps reduce anxiety. It increases a sense of preparedness. It makes the situation also feel more familiar.

• 27:08Jemma Sbeg?

  And we know that a lot of the times anxiety is just coming from a fear of uncertainty. So if it feels certain in your mind by thinking about it beforehand, you'll feel more certain in the moment. There is an amazing study from two thousand and sixteen and it's titled imagining success and the effectiveness of imagery that essentially shows that when you do these kinds of exercises, when you imagine winning, when you imagine an outcome you want, that programming, that's what you're doing, you're programming your mind. It improves performance and it improved the likelihood of participants. In this case, winning their tennis match. So it could also improve the likelihood of you coming across in a way that is confident

• 27:52Jemma Sbeg?

  and true to what you want to say and what you believe in. You know, you and your brain have a two-way relationship. Even if you have a baseline level of anxiety around being assertive, what you say to yourself, what you say to your brain does matter and will help. Another part of this is imagining yourself as somebody you admire and embodying how you think they would behave. Think about someone who you think is a really composed, assertive speaker. Really think about it in your brain. Who do you look up to? You know, the person I always imagine before I step into any space where I'm speaking or where I have to get up in front of people is Michelle Obama.

• 28:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Like she has so much poise, she has so much integrity, she speaks so clearly. And I just think, you know, How would she handle this if I'm walking into a situation that is stressing me out? What words would she use? When would she pause? How would she hold herself? I call it the masterful hero effect. I think it has another term, but for me, masterful hero effect. And it really works. You know, if people you admire can shape our behavior through what we buy and what we consume and how we dress and what books we read or music we listen to. If they can influence us that way, they can also shape our speaking behavior and how we assert ourselves. Because they set an example.

• 29:17Jemma Sbeg?

  I think having an example of a person like this also calms the innate people pleasing part of me, at least, that is really imagining the world collapsing and relationships ceasing to exist. If I ever set a real boundary, if I ever said, I'm not okay with that. That's a big fear. I think that's the main barrier to being an assertive communicator. What if people think that I'm an asshole? What if they don't want to be my friend? And so having that example of someone who is loud and clear and not afraid to express what they want and yet still has successful, beautiful relationships just reinforces that.

• 30:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Perhaps this fear that being assertive is going to ruin friendships or partnerships for you is a myth your brain is trying to tell you for whatever reason. Sometimes actually relationships do need hard boundaries and they do need assertiveness. So you're not kind of like running around in the dark trying to figure out what someone else wants. It'd be so much easier if they just came out and said it. And I think we can all acknowledge that our lives would also be easier if sometimes we just swallowed the hard pill and just said what we really wanted and weren't afraid to upset people. Now, my lovely listeners, our final tip for this episode, possibly my favorite one.

• 30:42Jemma Sbeg?

  Use flattery. Flatter the person by personalizing your framing to make them seem superior. Let me explain this because if it sounds like manipulation, I promise it isn't. The best way I can explain this is if you've ever had a dog, you will know the easiest way to make them take medication, something that you know they typically don't enjoy, is to sneak it into something really, really tasty. So like my dog, she's like this, she will just refuse to eat her worming medication or her tick medication, but the moment it is in a piece of chicken, like she's all over it.

• 31:20Jemma Sbeg?

  We're gonna do the same for our more difficult conversations with maybe the more difficult people in our lives or who we encounter. We're gonna sneak what we want into the conversation using a metaphorical piece of chicken and hopefully finish up with our intended outcome. So how are we gonna do this? Essentially, what you're going to do is make someone feel like they already know what you're about to say and they already agree with it because they have already had the thought you've had. They've already considered it because they are superior. So phrases like this, you probably already know this, but I just wanna make it really clear.

• 32:04Jemma Sbeg?

  I know you're probably already thinking this through, but I just wanna share my perspective as well. What I love about you is how intuitive you are. So you've probably already picked up on the fact that... ...dot, dot, dot. This is peak assertiveness. You are bringing someone onto your side, but still confidently making your point. Also, what I've found is if someone wants to disagree with you or dismiss you or dismiss the second part of a statement, they also have to disagree with the first part of the statement as well, which their ego will probably prevent them from doing. So let me use one of those sentences just to like illustrate this.

• 32:48Jemma Sbeg?

  I know you're really switched on, so this has probably already crossed your mind, but when you don't clean up after yourself, that means someone else has to do it. That first half of the sentence is crucial. I know you're really switched on. This person isn't gonna say, well, no, I'm not. I'm not actually that switched on. Because that's just counterintuitive. They wanna maintain their sense of pride and their sense of ego. And so by introducing a statement with something positive that they inherently will agree to, it means that they agree with the entire thing. This tactic, the reason it works psychologically is because it actually taps into something called the Dunning Kruger effect. I spoke about this in my book a lot in the chapter on mistakes,

• 33:30Jemma Sbeg?

  but people really overestimate their competence and their abilities. So if you play into that and you tap into their desire to maintain their self-image as someone who is intelligent, competent, knowing, aware, intuitive, whatever it is. It's not that you trick them into agreeing with you, but you make it easier for them to agree with you. You lower the ego barrier by kind of opening the door and saying, well, you're already so much smarter than me, so come in. Come in and show me how it's done. I think it also makes people less defensive. You know, people don't wanna have difficult conversations. I know I don't. So when you introduce it in a positive way,

• 34:13Jemma Sbeg?

  it also lessens the chance that either one of you is gonna become upset, aggressive, or agreeable. So those are my five tips. Let's do a quick refresh before I give you some rapid fire bonus ones. But number one, know the power of the pause. Number two, regulate your body. Number three, make it about you. Number four, visualize. Number five, flattery. I deliberately in this didn't wanna include tips that maybe you had heard before. So apologies if these were things you already knew, especially the body language tip. I know a lot of people talk about that. I think we all have some clue of how powerful that is.

• 34:56Jemma Sbeg?

  But there were some tips I didn't include that are pretty common. And if you need a refresher, let's quickly go through them. Because I think any further ways that we can be assertive, anything that clicks with you, that's important. So remember to be direct, but not harsh. Practice before you step into a conversation. Keep your tone calm always. If you feel the need to yell or shout, walk away. Hold eye contact. And own your note. Try and intentionally stop yourself from over explaining or apologizing. This is a habit that is hard to break. It's somewhat built into our DNA to avoid conflict through appeasement.

• 35:39Jemma Sbeg?

  But apologizing or coming back or going back on your point can really undermine what you have to say. The critical thing to remember is it's not a bad thing to be assertive. It's not an ugly or a selfish thing. It's actually a huge sign of respect towards the person or people you are speaking to. Because it's saying, this is what I need. Can you do this for me or not? I want to have an honest relationship with you. I don't want to waste your time and I respect you enough to not try and conceal what I'm really after. Sometimes when I struggle with this, because I definitely do in work situations.

• 36:23Jemma Sbeg?

  It's a big issue for me. I can be assertive in all of the areas except for work. But I just remind myself, sometimes you have to be the asshole. Sometimes you have to be the asshole. And so be it. If they're going to judge you, that is okay. Their judgments, they mean a whole lot less than your happiness. So I hope that you have learnt something from this episode. I hope that you can take these five tips I had for you today and integrate them, even if it's just one. Even if it's just one sentence that I said. I really meant it when I said, being an assertive communicator unlocks so much in your life. And it is a practice, it is a skill.

• 37:06Jemma Sbeg?

  I think the first thing is we need to mentally get over the roadblock that being assertive means that we are being disrespectful. It's the complete opposite. And when you finally are, you realize it's kind of a strange epiphany, like. Why wasn't I always doing this? Like, gosh, I missed out on a lot by keeping my mouth shut. But the good thing is, the good news is, it starts today. And you can go forward with these skills, with these habits, with these tricks and tips, and hopefully change how you really express what you want, what you need, what you deserve. Thank you so much for listening. As always, make sure that you are following us on Instagram at that psychology podcast. We are always looking for new episode suggestions.

• 37:50Jemma Sbeg?

  You can DM me over there. Make sure to share this episode with a friend who might need it. And until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, be assertive. And we will talk very, very soon.

• 38:09Jemma Sbeg?

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• 38:47Speaker 07

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• 39:43Speaker 08

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• 39:46Speaker 09

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• 40:18Jemma Sbeg?

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