Mirna Valerio: Shattering Stereotypes, Redefining Running & Confronting Racism in The Outdoors

When you hear the words “professional runner” what image pops into your head? Most likely it's some version of a skinny white male in tiny shorts. Let’s just say Mirna Valerio is here to smash that stereotype — and completely redefine what it means to be an accomplished endurance athlete. She's not White. She's not a dude. And she isn't skinny. She is a total badass of her own design. Back for a long-awaited sequel to RRP #340, Mirna is back to drop truth bombs left and right on all things body inclusion, identity, and diversity in the outdoors. For those new to Mirna, aka the force of nature affectionately known as The Mirnavator, she is one of the most inspirational athletes I have ever met — a true ambassador of sport on a mission to empower humans of all shapes, sizes, colors and genders to proudly embrace their bodies, expand their horizons, and own their personal truth. Today’s conversation picks up where we last left off, spanning her evolution into a full-time sponsored running professional to her work as as a diversity and inclusion educator. We talk about identity, and the way in which we see ourselves as the lens through which we interpret the world. We discuss the difference between body inclusion versus body positivity and acceptance. We talk about everyday racism in the outdoor world and industry--and the work required to assess and overcome our own internalized unconscious beliefs. And it's about defining your values and embodying them in your actions--day in and day out. Mirna’s joyful self-acceptance is both real and rare. It’s authentic and bold. And it's as infectious as it is inclusive. She is totally unapologetic, far from sheepish, and 100% herself. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I must confess: after almost 130 days in relative quarantine, melancholy has crept up on me. But there is something about Mirna’s gleeful demeanor that cheered me up. I think she will cheer you up as well. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Mirna Valerio?

  When you don't acknowledge that this actually exists and that my experience may be different from yours because I'm black and you are white, then you are absolutely perpetuating racism. Right? Because when you can't see it, when you don't see it, when you choose not to see it, you don't do anything about it.

• 1:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:24Mirna Valerio?

  But I also think that you should, and it's difficult now, but you need to broaden your circle. You need to be proximate to different kinds of people and start embracing their various identities. Examine your own. Examine the way in which you were socialized. And then see other people, see others' identities. Embrace them. Welcome them into your life. I think that's the way to go. If you have joy to exude, then you should. If you have good things to give, then you should. Maybe we won't win.

• 2:09Mirna Valerio?

  We should still do it.

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  That's Mirna Valerio, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, citizens. It is I, Rich Roll, your host. This is my podcast. Thanks for joining me. As many of you guys know, I have a great passion for running. It's a theme that I consistently explore on this show with a wide variety of like-minded enthusiasts, everybody from marathon champions to all kinds of people who have leveraged the power of running for tremendous personal transformation, which is a second recurring theme on the show. A third favorite theme is breaking paradigms, and a fourth is forging a more just and equitable world for all. Mirna Valerio embodies all of these themes and

• 3:07Rich Roll?

  so much more. She's somebody who basically redefines what comes to mind when we think of professional athleticism. Running is something that gave Mirna a whole new life. She's an endurance athlete who is neither white nor thin, but very much a badass of her own design, somebody who's breaking boundaries, broadening inclusivity, and essentially forcing all of us to think more broadly about things like equality and inclusion, both outdoors and in. The force of nature affectionately known as the Myrnivator, she is one of the most inspirational athletes I've ever met. She's a true ambassador of sport, somebody

• 3:48Rich Roll?

  who's on a mission to empower humans of all shapes, sizes, colors, and genders to proudly embrace their bodies, to expand their horizons, and ultimately own their truth.

• 4:10Rich Roll?

  Okay, back to Mirna. I love this woman. This is a great one that spans her evolution into a full-time sponsored running professional, all the way to her work as a diversity and inclusion educator. We talk about running, of course. We talk about identity and the way in which we see ourselves as this lens through which we see the world. We discuss the differences between body inclusion versus body positivity and body acceptance. We talk about everyday racism in the outdoor world and industry, and the work required to

• 4:49Rich Roll?

  Assess and overcome our own internalized unconscious beliefs. This is about defining your values, embodying them every day. And Mirna's joyful self-acceptance is really infectious. It's also real, it's rare, it's authentic, it's bold and inclusive. She's just completely fun to talk to, unapologetic and 100% herself. I gotta admit that after, what is it like, 130 days now of stay in place quarantine, among other things, melancholy has creeped up on me, kind of comes and goes. But there's something about Mirna's joy and her gleeful demeanor that really cheered

• 5:33Rich Roll?

  me up, and I think she's going to cheer you up as well. So let's do this. This is me and the Myrnivator.

• 5:43Rich Roll?

  Well, cool, we're back. How many years has it been since we did this?

• 5:47Mirna Valerio?

  Three years, almost three years.

• 5:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I remember it vividly. We were in your hotel room, you were in town for some kind of education conference and we were down in Anaheim. It was fun.

• 5:58Mirna Valerio?

  Dingy room at the Embassy Suites.

• 6:00Rich Roll?

  I know, but I'm really happy to have you back here today. It's really nice to see you.

• 6:04Mirna Valerio?

  Although likewise, I'm so happy to be here.

• 6:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so a lot has changed in the three years since we last sat down. Culturally, socially, of course, but also personally for you. I mean, you're now a full-time professional athlete, basically.

• 6:19Mirna Valerio?

  Sure.

• 6:20Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 6:22Mirna Valerio?

  If you want to put it that way. I usually call myself, well, I'm a sponsored athlete, but I do other things as well.

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  That makes you a professional athlete in my book. You make your living as an athlete. You get to travel around and do what you love and talk about things that you love, which is pretty awesome.

• 6:38Mirna Valerio?

  I do, you're right, you're absolutely right.

• 6:40Rich Roll?

  So what was that like to make that leap? Like you were, you were an educator at like a private high school, right?

• 6:46Mirna Valerio?

  Right.

• 6:47Rich Roll?

  When I last saw you.

• 6:48Mirna Valerio?

  I had been in education for 18 years when I decided that doing all of this that I'm doing now and teaching and working at a boarding school was too much. And also I was making more money doing the other stuff. So I decided to take a leap and it was a really giant leap. Out of education, out of that security. Net that I had, just in terms of everything, in terms of my salary, in terms of healthcare, and in terms of somewhere to live, because I worked at boarding schools. But I just decided to go for it. And I had the full support of my family.

• 7:32Mirna Valerio?

  My kid stayed at the boarding school for another year while I figured out what and how I was going to, how I was gonna do this, how I was gonna plant myself somewhere and continue to do all the media stuff and to do the professional athlete thing and to do everything else that I was doing. And it took a couple of months. It took a long time to believe that I could actually function without being attached to a workplace, so to speak. And, but you know, but again, I had all these awesome opportunities. I ended up in Vermont.

• 8:14Rich Roll?

  Right. So when did you move to Vermont? You were living in Georgia.

• 8:17Mirna Valerio?

  Well, I was living in Georgia. And then after that, after I had to move out of my house because it was school property.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:24Mirna Valerio?

  I floated around a little bit. I lived in Atlanta for the summer in a friend's apartment. And then I headed my way back up to Brooklyn and slept on a couch for a couple of months. And when I decided that that was, that was enough of that, you know, on a whim, decided to go up and visit a friend who lives in Vermont. And, you know, we were gonna have a week of adventure. We were gonna ski and take a snowboard lesson, do some indoor rock climbing, do some snow shoeing. And so I went up there and loved it for a week. I only went for a week. And decided that I needed to live there in the dead of winter.

• 9:07Mirna Valerio?

  And I discovered that there were apartments at the inn where I was staying. And I ended up staying at those apartments and moved in the next month. And I'm not trying to move out of Vermont again. Like, I'm not trying to move anywhere. That's it. I love it. I absolutely love it. It's a community that I think I need to be in. I'm in Montpelier in the capital city. City in quotes, because it's a very small city.

• 9:34Rich Roll?

  A hamlet.

• 9:35Mirna Valerio?

  Yes, it's a hamlet, the Hamlet of Montpelier. And it's convenient. My son loves it. He's 17 years old and I've made him move to a lot of different places and he is having a great time there.

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  That's great. And tons of trails.

• 9:54Mirna Valerio?

  Trails everywhere. Like even though I'm in a city, I can, well, I'm not running right now. We can talk about that later. I can, you know, walk or run to a trail half mile away and, you know, just be ensconced in the forest.

• 10:10Rich Roll?

  Right. That's cool. So how come you're not running right now? You got an injury?

• 10:13Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, I have a torn meniscus, which is really fun.

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  It's your first real injury?

• 10:19Mirna Valerio?

  Well.

• 10:20Rich Roll?

  Because I've noticed you've been out on the bike a lot.

• 10:22Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah. We should talk about that because it's my new sport now.

• 10:28Rich Roll?

  Ultra cyclist.

• 10:29Mirna Valerio?

  I don't know about ultra cycling, but I definitely love being out there on a bike. But yeah, I had some Achilles injuries or an Achilles injury still on my left foot, but you can run with that. It just takes a long time to recover. And then I started having issues in my knees, which I had never had to deal with before. And it just got worse and worse, like over the course of a month.

• 10:58Rich Roll?

  You do that thing where you just pretend it's going to go away and you keep running?

• 11:01Mirna Valerio?

  Perhaps.

• 11:02Rich Roll?

  Maybe.

• 11:05Mirna Valerio?

  I don't know what you're talking about, Rich. And, you know, it would get better, you know, for two days and then it would get significantly worse. And then I finally went on a big hike and then that night, my leg was really stiff and like the whole leg was swollen and that was very, very unusual. And so I finally went to the doctor. Mind you, during my transition from being a full-time teacher to this thing that I'm doing now, I didn't have health insurance because

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Mirna Valerio?

  America. And

• 11:41Mirna Valerio?

  so, but I finally have health insurance and so I decided to go and use it and then it turned out to be, they thought it was runner's knee at first, a little bit of arthritis, which that runs in my family. And, but then finally I went for an MRI and

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Mirna Valerio?

  And then they found out it was a torn meniscus. So I will have surgery in a few weeks and hopefully that will take care of a lot of the issues there and, and I'll be back running. I really miss it.

• 12:08Rich Roll?

  In the meantime, you can ride a bike?

• 12:10Mirna Valerio?

  I can ride a bike. I've been on a gravel bike, which is my new second favorite thing.

• 12:17Rich Roll?

  I still haven't done that. I gotta get out on one of those.

• 12:19Mirna Valerio?

  Oh, man, it's phenomenal. I mean, in Vermont, it's almost 50%

• 12:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:23Mirna Valerio?

  dirt road. So you run out of pavement really quickly and you have to ride dirt roads. So, and it's, and it's so fun. It's this thing, this thing that I do now.

• 12:34Rich Roll?

  And the family likes it in Vermont?

• 12:35Mirna Valerio?

  The family loves it. My, I mean, my son loves it. My husband, who lives part-time in New York and also in West Africa, he came up and visited and was like, wow, I can like be on a mountain. I can walk. I can ride a bike. I can eat really good food and relax and it's clean here. Cause he normally lives in the Bronx or in Harlem. So it's a very different experience.

• 13:03Rich Roll?

  He does, is that just where his job is?

• 13:05Mirna Valerio?

  Well, that's what we, when he is in the States, he works as a truck driver and a tow truck driver and some other things. And so that's where a lot of the work is. And so he stays down there and then, and then he goes home to run his business, which is in technology.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  And meanwhile, you get to travel all around and run races and talk to people and talk about your book and stuff like that. And you've done a lot of races. I think, were you training for a hundred miler when the injury happened or?

• 13:32Mirna Valerio?

  No.

• 13:33Rich Roll?

  No.

• 13:34Mirna Valerio?

  I

• 13:34Rich Roll?

  I know you were like on

• 13:35Mirna Valerio?

  Not training for a 100 miler.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  You were on like Good Morning America, talking about Dan Harris about your 100 miler. Not that long ago.

• 13:43Mirna Valerio?

  Well, no, I said I one day.

• 13:46Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 13:46Mirna Valerio?

  Like to maybe train for a hundred one 100 miler.

• 13:50Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 13:52Mirna Valerio?

  But and then they gifted me, Good Morning America didn't, but TCS, which is the title sponsor of the TCS New York City Marathon gifted me four of their races around the world. And and I told them in the interview that, oh, I'm going to take 2020 to be a rest year so that maybe I can start from zero and then start training for a 100 miler. And then they gifted me these four races for 2020. And I said, okay, well, I'll just have to put that off for a year. But then COVID happened and

• 14:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, everybody's putting it off for a year.

• 14:30Mirna Valerio?

  Right.

• 14:30Rich Roll?

  So your injury kind of happened at the correct time.

• 14:33Mirna Valerio?

  It is the perfect time and I'm actually really grateful that it happened now that that all the races are canceled, all the events are canceled, and now I can just take care of myself and rest.

• 14:44Rich Roll?

  How's it feel to rest? A lot of runners get really uncomfortable with that.

• 14:49Mirna Valerio?

  It's this is like

• 14:49Rich Roll?

  You gotta be with yourself in a different kind of way.

• 14:52Mirna Valerio?

  Extended taper period, that's what it is. You know what? I actually haven't had a whole lot of rest. I, you know, to be completely honest, I've been swamped with work since I was actually in LA in March for the LA Marathon and and then spent a couple of days out west here and then went back east and that's when everything shut down. And I thought I would have some time to just chill and sleep and I did for about two weeks.

• 15:25Mirna Valerio?

  But then I started getting a lot of requests for some motivational inspirational speaking because people were down in the dumps.

• 15:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:35Mirna Valerio?

  And so I did a lot of that. And I don't even, I don't market myself as a motivational speaker or an inspirational speaker. I just tell my story. I just talk about what the things that are I'm doing that bring me joy. And, but I think people get a lot out of it. So that's what I was doing for a long time. And then racism happened, or continues to happen. And then, and then I was pulled, and again, to even more work. So I have, I have been working nonstop.

• 16:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, I want to get into how you've been pulled back into this education space. But before we do that, I mean, we went into your story in great detail last time, and people should go back and listen to that. I love that episode and that conversation. But it might make sense for people who haven't heard that to kind of recap your story a little bit. Maybe you could do it in the context of your motivational pitch.

• 16:26Mirna Valerio?

  But I don't have a motivational pitch.

• 16:30Rich Roll?

  Share your story.

• 16:31Mirna Valerio?

  Share my story. Well, back in, so in 2008, I had this health scare where I thought I was having a heart attack. And it turned out not to be a heart attack, thank goodness. I happened to be in a car on my way back from a weekend gig with my son in it, and I started having chest pains and eventually decided stupidly, though, to continue home. And while I was having those chest pains, a colleague of mine took me to the doctor, took me to the emergency room, where it was determined that I wasn't having a heart

• 17:10Mirna Valerio?

  attack, but that I had had a panic attack, which I thought was strange and impossible for black people. You know, because we're always so chill. And

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  Panic free.

• 17:25Mirna Valerio?

  And I even said that to the doctor. I said, "Black people don't have panic attacks." And he looked at me as though I was crazy. And, but then, you know, that set off a stream of doctor's appointments and cardiologist's appointments where the cardiologist that I, that I eventually saw said that, basically that I was going to die if I didn't change my lifestyle. And I heard him very well. I knew what he meant. And so I decided that I absolutely needed to change something in my life. If, you know, if I wasn't going to eventually have a cardiac event. And so I got back on my treadmill.

• 18:09Mirna Valerio?

  And this, incidentally, this treadmill was one that I had purchased a couple of months before, but that I hadn't been using. And it was, I used it as a closet.

• 18:20Rich Roll?

  Like most people.

• 18:21Mirna Valerio?

  Right. It had shoes on it, belts, clothing, coats. And as I cleaned it off the next day and got back on it, did my first mile in about three and a half years. And that mile was very painful. Not just physically, but mostly emotionally, because I had let myself get to a point where I couldn't run a mile anymore. And that felt really awful and gross. And.

• 18:47Rich Roll?

  And you like played field hockey in high school.

• 18:49Mirna Valerio?

  Field hockey. I played lacrosse, both varsity. And, you know, I was an athlete. I'd had been an athlete since high school. And, you know, I ran on and off recreationally throughout my young adulthood. And I was, I was always very, very active. But when I moved from New York to Maryland, that's when things changed. That's, and I started gaining a bunch of weight and having lots of health issues, dental issues. My kid was always sick. And I mean, that's really the crux of the whole story is my kid was always sick, which meant that I was always sick and I was always missing work. He was always missing school. And that is very, very stressful.

• 19:34Mirna Valerio?

  I was living with, alone with him in Maryland. My husband was in New York and.

• 19:38Rich Roll?

  Was that the inciting incident for the panic attack?

• 19:41Mirna Valerio?

  That whole three-year period probably was. Because it was a very stressful existence. I didn't enjoy my job a whole lot. I thought I was really good at it. And I think I was, I was, I was really good at my job. But I was also balancing being, you know, living the existence of a single parent.

• 19:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:59Mirna Valerio?

  While.

• 20:01Mirna Valerio?

  Having this job where I wasn't appreciated. And so I think that sort of culminated in a lot of things happening with me physically. And then eventually I decided to leave that job because it was just, it wasn't a healthy thing for me to be doing with my family. It wasn't healthy for my family either. And so I moved back north to New Jersey to an even more stressful job, but at least I was closer to family. And that's where I had this health scare. I was also teaching, I

• 20:40Mirna Valerio?

  was teaching full time. It was in grad school. I was obviously a mom and a wife. And I was also teaching on the weekends too in Maryland. And so all of that mixed up together created this existence that wasn't very healthy or helpful for me. And that's why I had that health scare. And so I, when that cardiologist told me that I was gonna die if I didn't change my lifestyle, I really did make a decision to change a lot of things. I prioritized my day. I stopped bringing work home, which is really difficult to do when you work in

• 21:20Mirna Valerio?

  a boarding school. I would get up super early and hop on the treadmill for an hour and then do Pilates and then do awful Biggest Loser videos. Really, really awful, but I did them anyway because I needed to change drastically. And so, I mean, and I did. I would work out for five hours a day.

• 21:47Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 21:47Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, I was really committed to changing my life in a very drastic way. So that's what I did.

• 21:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:56Mirna Valerio?

  And

• 21:56Rich Roll?

  And little, little did you know

• 21:58Mirna Valerio?

  Who knew?

• 21:59Rich Roll?

  This would set in motion this entire new life that you live now, right?

• 22:03Mirna Valerio?

  Who knew?

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  Was there a breakthrough moment where you thought, where you really just embraced this idea that I am a runner and this is like the path that I'm gonna blaze for myself?

• 22:15Mirna Valerio?

  I don't think there was one moment. I think I just slowly grew into a running persona. And I never really had any qualms about whether or not I was a runner. Like, I I ran, therefore I was a runner. But as far as like the really deep running persona and identifying deeply as a runner, I think that just came about organically.

• 22:47Mirna Valerio?

  And then it was, it's always a surprise to me that people who run don't think they're runners. Because if you run, you use your body for running. It's something you do regularly.

• 22:57Rich Roll?

  You are what you do, right?

• 22:59Mirna Valerio?

  Right.

• 23:00Rich Roll?

  Well, we all measure ourselves up against some idealized version of what that means or is. And the truth is, you know, 99.99% of people that are running are not, you know, winning marathons and things like that. This is the greatest participation sport. But I think what's interesting about your story and what I'm interested in is your example and your story kind of catalyzed a broader conversation about body positivity and what does it mean to be an athlete? Were you surprised at the kind of narrative that emerged out of what you've done? Or did you see that coming?

• 23:37Mirna Valerio?

  I did not see that coming. And I was surprised by the narrative because I just did what I needed to do for my body. And I made it public when I started a blog. And I only did that because someone suggested that I do it.

• 23:52Mirna Valerio?

  And it still is surprising to me that this is even a story.

• 23:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:55Mirna Valerio?

  I'm a fat girl who runs.

• 23:56Rich Roll?

  The story continues to grow. Like, you're everywhere. Like, I first came across your story by way of that REI video that kind of went viral, the MyNivator. But I keep seeing new stuff popping up all the time. Like, people are continuing to discover your story, which is wild, right? And you're like, well, I'm here for it, right?

• 24:18Mirna Valerio?

  Like, I have no complaints, but it is crazy to me that it's a thing. As I said, like, I'm just a person who likes to run and I like to exercise. But on the other hand, I know that there are lots of people who, for whom, like, this thing that I'm doing seems to be inaccessible to them. Because they have this idea that a runner looks this way, a runner runs this quickly. A person who hikes is a certain body type, a certain race, probably male.

• 24:53Mirna Valerio?

  And so when they see me, it... Blows their minds that I'm out there doing those same things, unapologetically and without regard for what people think I should be doing and where people think I should be doing it.

• 25:12Rich Roll?

  The unapologetic part is a big part of it, too. Like, you always have this huge smile and you're the life of the party on the trail.

• 25:18Mirna Valerio?

  I don't know about the life of the party.

• 25:20Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a sense like, oh, well, you know, I'm here, but I really shouldn't be here. Like, the sheepishness that perhaps somebody, you know, somebody else who's, you know, trying to make this work would feel in that experience.

• 25:33Mirna Valerio?

  Well, I definitely, when I started trail running, I didn't know what I was doing.

• 25:39Rich Roll?

  Nobody does.

• 25:40Mirna Valerio?

  Right. I still don't know what I'm doing. But, you know, I would just kind of like hang in the back and listen to the race directors and then go off on an adventure because I always see it as an adventure. And again, not knowing what I was doing, not knowing what I was in for. But as I became used to that and more comfortable with, like, the unknown aspect of trail running and anything that you do in the outdoors, I definitely became more comfortable just being in those spaces. And that's just some, that's how I operate in any uncomfortable situation. I'll hang in the back and observe, learn things.

• 26:25Mirna Valerio?

  And then as I become more comfortable, I, um, what's the word I'm looking for?

• 26:32Rich Roll?

  Acclimate.

• 26:33Mirna Valerio?

  Well, I acclimate, but I'll, I extend myself more and more when I'm in those situations.

• 26:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What's also interesting is that, you know, trail running isn't exactly the most diverse sport out there.

• 26:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right. So juxtaposed against running more broadly, you know, black people dominate running in, you know, all the way from the 100 meters to the marathon. But you don't see a lot of black people on the trail.

• 27:03Mirna Valerio?

  You don't. That is true. And that's, there are a lot of reasons that it is that way in trail running and in hiking. Because obviously, those two are related. I think, and people definitely are surprised when they see me on a trail. You know, unless they know who I am already. But when...

• 27:29Rich Roll?

  You're famous now.

• 27:30Mirna Valerio?

  I'm not famous, but you know, like it's, you know, in the niche, in the trail running niche. I, you know, people, people know who I am. And so it's not as much of a surprise. But if I'm somebody else, hey, hi. How are you? Where are you from? And there are a lot of questions and that try to get at why you're here. And you can read it in people's body language, too. Sort of questioning like, oh, wow. How did this person get here? Why are, why are they on this trail? And so I definitely have had experiences when, for example, I was, I signed up for a hiking, a group hike out of a store in New Jersey.

• 28:11Mirna Valerio?

  And the hike leader, even though I was dressed in trail running clothes and I was, I mean, I was decked out. I had my Nathan, I had my trail running shoes, my wool socks. I mean, I was decked out. But she only came to me and asked me if I was ready for this hike. And it could have been because I'm fat. I don't know, but I was also the only black person there.

• 28:35Mirna Valerio?

  Did I have enough water and have a hydration pack?

• 28:41Mirna Valerio?

  Do you have food? Yeah, I've got bars. I'm good. I'm good. You can go pay attention to the other people that are here. So, so that happens sometimes. But, you know, there's a lot of history behind why outdoor spaces that are in forests

• 29:00Mirna Valerio?

  are considered to be white spaces. And so... So number one, that might make them inhospitable for people who are not like me. I will stick my ass anywhere I feel like I belong. But a lot of people don't have that sense of entitlement. So or don't know that they could be out there hiking or trail running too. Because look at the representation in media. Who do you see? You see what you see people like you, Rich.

• 29:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Mirna Valerio?

  It's you.

• 29:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:32Mirna Valerio?

  Maybe a lady.

• 29:35Mirna Valerio?

  You definitely don't see me, although I have been privileged to appear in a lot of publications. But I'm only one person. And I'm honored to be able to be that one person so that people can kind of see themselves or envision themselves doing the things that I do. But there isn't enough. So I think representation is really, really crucial and lacking in terms of what we see as the outdoors, who we see in the outdoors and who we see doing these outdoor activities.

• 30:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's wild. You know, you mentioned that there's a lot of history behind why outdoor spaces have been considered off limits to people of color. It's sickening and disheartening to hear that. I believe it to be true, but I can tell you that I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about why that might be.

• 30:39Mirna Valerio?

  Well, if you think about how the national parks were formulated and how that land was stolen from native populations without regard to any of their history or their domiciles. I mean, that's just one part of that. And I also think of how just land in the US.

• 31:04Mirna Valerio?

  Ownership of land is very, very white. Ownership of any sort of real estate or land is very white. And so when someone like me appears, like I look like I don't belong. Because the ownership of land has been traditionally white. And so, I mean, there is the government, there are private entities that are also responsible for this sort of whitewashing of land in the US. And then there's, you know, white supremacy, supremacist ideology, that, you know, black people don't belong and we are seen as nuisances in many different types of spaces.

• 31:46Mirna Valerio?

  So, and there's research on that too, on like blacks as nuisance in public spaces.

• 31:56Rich Roll?

  It's so heavy.

• 31:56Mirna Valerio?

  It's really heavy. See, I'm smiling because it's so heavy. And to have to think about that constantly, and I do think about it constantly. Every second that I'm on a trail. I mean, I may be smiling and I may be gracious and affable, but I am always, always thinking about whether or not people think I belong. And, you know, somebody gonna ask me a dumbass question. Are they gonna say something stupid? Or are they going to make me feel as though I'm not welcome? I'm always thinking of that. Which is why I'm like so effusive with my cheer. Because I have to be.

• 32:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you feel like part of that is a defense mechanism to put other people at ease, which makes you feel more safe.

• 32:42Mirna Valerio?

  Absolutely.

• 32:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, I mean, that's the story of every black runner.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:47Mirna Valerio?

  Every single person who goes out and runs, who is black, you know, we have to signal.

• 32:55Mirna Valerio?

  You know, there's a term for it. It's called signaling, to signal to other people that we are safe to be around and we are not a threat. So.

• 33:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you hear stories of black runners who will wear a sweatshirt or a T-shirt that has a fancy college name on it or something like that to make white people feel like this person is not a threat.

• 33:15Mirna Valerio?

  Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you put on. I, you know, again, I, I'm always decked out in the latest gear. I wear bright colors. I, you know, I've got my running cap and my trucker cap on, a race shirt or something that signals to people that I'm a runner. I was, when I still lived in Georgia, I was running down my own street. And I was two miles, I had done 14 miles, and so I was finishing up the last two miles to do a 16 miler. On my way back home, a woman in a white SUV was coming in the opposite

• 33:58Mirna Valerio?

  direction and stops about a quarter of a mile away from me. I'm slow, so it takes me a long time to do a quarter of a mile, so I was still pretty far away from her. So she stops, she takes out her phone, she's looking at me, she's talking on her phone, looking at me, talking on her phone. Again, I am like, really decked out. I mean, sweaty, but really decked out in all my running gear. And, and then she gets off the phone and slowly rolls by me and looks at me. And I wave, I'm smiling, hey, wondering.

• 34:33Rich Roll?

  And you do that on purpose because you know.

• 34:36Mirna Valerio?

  On purpose.

• 34:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay.

• 34:38Mirna Valerio?

  And then, not even five minutes later, a cop car rolls by from that same direction that she had been going, and he slows down, rolls down the window, look at me. I wave, in my head, I'm like, what the fuck?

• 34:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:52Mirna Valerio?

  And that cop rolls away, and then another one comes from the opposite direction, slows down, rolls her window down, and then I wave again, hey, have a good day. And.

• 35:08Rich Roll?

  This is in your neighborhood.

• 35:10Mirna Valerio?

  This is two miles away from my house. And.

• 35:15Mirna Valerio?

  You know, and in my head, I'm like, I'm just running. I am running. I did have a walking stick that I carried because there were lots of dogs. There were like no leash laws where I used to live. And so there were dogs everywhere. And so I would have to bang the stick on the ground to get the dogs away from me. And so, but it was a very fancy carved walking stick. And, you know, and so when I got back home, I, I, of course, I posted this on Facebook because, you know, that's what I do. And, and, you know, we had some laughs about it. And a friend, one friend called me suspicious black lady running. That's

• 35:54Mirna Valerio?

  B L R. I'm just gonna get T shirts made. And, but some other people sort of questioned whether or not, you know, I looked dangerous because I had a walking stick with me. White people, of course. You know, maybe, maybe, you know, she was worried, maybe she was scared by the stick you were carrying. I was like, in my, in my pink shirt?

• 36:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:15Mirna Valerio?

  My Nathan hydration pack and my dirty running shoes. I mean, that's the sort of thing that I think gives people pause.

• 36:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Mirna Valerio?

  There's a sociologist named Dr. Rishan Ray, who has done a study of why black people don't exercise in certain types of neighborhoods because of perceived danger for their person. And, and it's, and that's exactly it. That's what it is. Like, we, we signal, we wave, we smile, we are extra friendly and bubbly, but it doesn't seem to matter. I mean, look at Ahmaud Arbery, just running in a neighborhood.

• 37:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, as you're telling this story, I can't stop thinking about him and, and how, you know, your, your story isn't that dissimilar from his. It has a different outcome, obviously, but the circumstances are related. And you can't, you can't, you can't listen to the story you just told without conjuring up what might have gone terribly wrong, because somebody is confused about who you are and what you're doing.

• 37:35Mirna Valerio?

  And why I'm there.

• 37:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:37Mirna Valerio?

  Even though it's. Very clear.

• 37:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, your signaling couldn't be more clear. And I'm just picturing you running, like, what is threatening about that? And what's going on with that person in the SUV that they're feeling so threatened by you?

• 37:54Rich Roll?

  Where is that confusion emanating from? And what's going on in their life that they would? What is embedded in their programming that perceives that as a threat or something to be scared of?

• 38:05Mirna Valerio?

  White supremacy is embedded in their programming. That's exactly what that is.

• 38:10Rich Roll?

  So let's talk about that. I mean, you have, you know, a big part of your educational career is teaching diversity, right? So now, now you're, you're back doing that once again, including teaching anti-racism, right? You're doing this online?

• 38:24Mirna Valerio?

  Yes.

• 38:25Rich Roll?

  So walk me through what that's all about.

• 38:28Mirna Valerio?

  So I will say that when I left teaching in 2018, I had no plans on doing further work in diversity, equity, and inclusion because it's hard stuff. I mean, it's really, really hard.

• 38:42Mirna Valerio?

  It takes a lot out of me emotionally. And I was doing it in, in North Georgia, where it, I loved my job. I loved developing curriculum and doing seminars and workshops with the students. It was tougher to do it with the adults.

• 39:01Rich Roll?

  With the parents.

• 39:02Mirna Valerio?

  Not even with the parents, just with my colleagues. Not all of them, though. But it was really tough.

• 39:08Rich Roll?

  It was a boarding school, right?

• 39:09Mirna Valerio?

  It was a boarding school.

• 39:10Rich Roll?

  Predominantly white boarding school?

• 39:11Mirna Valerio?

  Predominantly white, but, you know, with a large population of international students and quite a few people who are black, either black American or from the islands or from Africa. So it was very diverse for a boarding school. And, and so like, as I said, I had lots of fun doing the work with the students and, and faculty members who were also sold on the work of diversity and social justice. But it was really difficult to do that work with constant opposition

• 39:52Mirna Valerio?

  as far as what I could do, what I could talk about, you know, what was... What was not going to rile up the parent community.

• 40:01Rich Roll?

  Right, what's palatable.

• 40:02Mirna Valerio?

  And I did, I mean, I did anyway.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  And what's going to be inciting.

• 40:05Mirna Valerio?

  I did anyway. I was very privileged in that I could really do whatever I wanted to do. Had an unlimited budget to send people to conferences, to go to conferences, to do programming. But it was still really hard because, you know, I was dealing with a fairly conservative community in North Georgia. And so there are many things that I couldn't do because it probably wasn't safe to do. And so it weighed on me very heavily. And I will say that my blood pressure went up when I was living down in Georgia.

• 40:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Mirna Valerio?

  And there is definitely a correlation between racist acts, racism in general, and hypertension in the black community. And I-

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  Because you're in a chronic state of alert.

• 40:52Mirna Valerio?

  Right.

• 40:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:53Mirna Valerio?

  Anytime I'm driving, anytime I got pulled over, twice. And, you know, and I think getting pulled over for anyone is a stressful experience, but especially for black people when there's so many incidences where people don't come out of those situations alive. It's scary, you know, even though I'm a black woman and it doesn't happen as frequently to black women, but look at Sandra Bland. Who's suicide is very suspicious.

• 41:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:27Mirna Valerio?

  So, you know, I'm worried about my son just kind of existing as a day student. He was, when I was there, he was a day student. And so sometimes he would walk back and forth to school on our road, you know, same road where that woman called the cops on me. And, you know, he's tall and he's black.

• 41:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:47Mirna Valerio?

  And so I constantly worried about him. And so, yeah, I definitely, you know, for someone who has never, ever had issues with blood pressure, that started when I, actually, when I started doing that work down south. And

• 42:03Rich Roll?

  Like, we need, we need diversity education, but don't be too provocative.

• 42:08Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  Basically.

• 42:09Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, absolutely. And that's, and that's why diversity education doesn't really work.

• 42:13Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:13Mirna Valerio?

  Diversity education is meant to be celebratory, like to, to, to celebrate our differences. And to celebrate the way that that enhances all of our lives. Whereas equity, inclusion and anti racism requires that you are constantly working like under the umbrella of social justice work. And it's not just, yeah, we want to definitely, absolutely embrace everyone's various identities. But there is another part to the work that's really hard and you have to be very introspective and metacognitive about your own attitudes and beliefs and how they, and how they perpetuate racism.

• 42:55Rich Roll?

  Right. And somebody has to be willing to probe inward.

• 42:58Mirna Valerio?

  Yes.

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  Who's on the receiving end of what you have to say, right? Because it's easy for me to listen to you tell these stories. And I think, you know, as a, as a white, straight male, I hear the story of the woman in the SUV and I'm like, well, that's not me. So, you know, I'm not part of that problem, right? But the real work is, is looking inward enough to see where I am playing a part in this. Right? And, and you, you have to be open enough and vulnerable enough to, to tackle that for yourself and not everybody is, right? So I was reading, I just pulled up this article, I don't know if you saw it. That was in the New York Times Sunday Magazine about Robin DiAngelo's work.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  Did you, it was like this long read article about white fragility is everywhere, but does anti racism training actually work, right? And it sort of unpacks the very thing that you're talking about, which is you're confronting people with some very uncomfortable truths about not just society, but perhaps our own individual behavior. And people get provoked and defensive and they don't want to hear it, right? So that in turn leads to a bit of a backlash. And I think we're seeing that culturally right now.

• 44:12Mirna Valerio?

  That is, but this is, I love.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so this is why I want to talk to you.

• 44:18Mirna Valerio?

  Okay, so, in the course that I teach, Introduction to Identity, Social Justice, and Anti-Racism, that's what I do. I want to hit people individually. And I want to bring them to... I introduce this framework. It's a framework called White Racial Identity for Anti-Racism, and by Dr. Janet Helms out of Boston College. And there are differing stages, right? And so what you just mentioned, kind of people pulling back and shutting down from those conversations, that is one of the stages

• 45:00Mirna Valerio?

  of achieving an anti-racist identity. And we have that first stage, which is contact, where people are colorblind, and they don't see color. We're all part of the human race.

• 45:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:14Mirna Valerio?

  And then you travel through various stages, disintegration, reintegration, and each of those stages has elements of what you were just talking about, where people, they know racism happens. They know that there is a thing called white privilege, and that, and I'm talking specifically about people in the white community, and they know that they benefit from white privilege, but then, but then what?

• 45:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:41Mirna Valerio?

  You read White Fragility.

• 45:42Rich Roll?

  What do you do with that?

• 45:43Mirna Valerio?

  You read How to Be Anti-Racist. You read all of these, you know, so you want to talk about racism, or... So, you can do that, but a lot of people stop there. And they don't continue to examine themselves, or they, you know, they might give money to the NAACP Defense Fund, or they might give money to the Minnesota Fund, the bailout fund. But then they don't actually do the work themselves.

• 46:12Rich Roll?

  Or start Venmo-ing their black friends $5.

• 46:16Mirna Valerio?

  Okay, I have several.

• 46:18Rich Roll?

  Did you get any Venmos?

• 46:19Mirna Valerio?

  I got, I got so much money from people.

• 46:27Rich Roll?

  It's such a weird thing.

• 46:28Mirna Valerio?

  And I didn't want to be an asshole and return it. I didn't need the money. But I did get a lot of money, hey, you know, from people I didn't know.

• 46:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:38Mirna Valerio?

  Or people who were my followers. And I really appreciate the gesture. I think, I think.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a strange combination of good intentions met with perhaps confusion.

• 46:50Mirna Valerio?

  It's guilt and shame. That's what it is. And so that's one of the stages.

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  There was a, there's a podcast called Reply All that does long form stories on weird things that happen on the internet. And they did a whole hour on this very thing, interviewing black people who'd received money, money and sharing their experience of what that felt like.

• 47:12Mirna Valerio?

  Like, y'all, just hit up my Patreon. You know, just.

• 47:15Rich Roll?

  But go ahead, I interrupted you.

• 47:16Mirna Valerio?

  No, it's okay. But, you know, but that, you know, that sending money and the whole blackout Tuesday, all of that is, was, is out of guilt and shame. That is one of the, one of the stages of white racial identity. You know, if you're going to eventually travel to doing anti-racism work in your life, right? But again, like if you get stuck there, stuck there, it's, it's, that's where a lot of the damage occurs. If you even get stuck in the next stage.

• 47:55Rich Roll?

  By being stuck, you mean, okay, I did my thing.

• 47:57Mirna Valerio?

  I did my thing.

• 47:58Rich Roll?

  I Venmo'd my friend.

• 47:59Mirna Valerio?

  Yes, I did my reading.

• 48:00Rich Roll?

  I posted the black square.

• 48:02Mirna Valerio?

  I'm an ally. That's, that's who I am. I'm going to call myself an ally and I'm not going to do any further work or any examination of my own attitudes and beliefs, which are probably racist. And so, you know, and then, so as you travel along that spectrum, there is, there's even one, one part of this, one stage that is where you start blaming the victim. And you say things like, well, he shouldn't have been playing loud music in his car. He shouldn't have been using a counterfeit 20.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  Or a mod shouldn't have been running through a construction site.

• 48:48Mirna Valerio?

  Right. He shouldn't have stopped and looked. At this house under construction, he shouldn't have done that. She should have put out her cigarette when the cop asked her to. But did all these people deserve to die because they had a counterfeit $20 bill? Or they were running? And so, so that's actually one of those stages. But you know, the thing is that when you can be metacognitive and you can observe yourself having those thoughts and say, "Oh, I am having this really negative thought that is probably racist and damaging." When you can do that, when you have the ability to see yourself saying those things, feeling

• 49:30Mirna Valerio?

  those things, and then you can say, "Well, I don't, I don't really believe that. I don't, I know that this is, I know that this sort of attitude perpetuates racism." And then you move on to the next stage, where you actually start doing something. You start, you do the reading and stuff, and you start really trying to connect with people in the white community, and I'm talking again specifically about white people, who are trying also to do the work. That's, that's the only way, I think. And you, you also have to collaborate with people of color.

• 50:09Rich Roll?

  So when you say, I think there's a lot of confusion around what the work is, when you're like, "Have you done the work? Are you actually doing the work?" Like, what does that actually mean?

• 50:16Mirna Valerio?

  The work is social justice work. All of this is encapsulated under that, that umbrella, where all members of our society have equitable access to all of the resources that we have. And, and then these resources and this access are ecologically sustainable. So that's, that's what social justice work is, and, and anti-racism is a part of social justice work. Because obviously, we, there are lots of other isms that we have to contend with. Sexism, transphobia, you know, ism. And, you know, so there are lots of other things that, to contend with, but, you know, anti-racism is a facet of that.

• 51:02Mirna Valerio?

  And so, if you...

• 51:05Mirna Valerio?

  Are saying that you are a person that does the work. You are continually educating yourself, collaborating with people beyond and not centering your own experience while you are doing the work.

• 51:21Rich Roll?

  Meaning, what do you mean not centering your experience?

• 51:25Mirna Valerio?

  Well, you know, when people center their own experiences, this is actually, it's it's a part of how lots of conversations get shut down. Again, this is what white fragility is all about. It's all about centering your own experience.

• 51:44Rich Roll?

  Meaning, I don't do that. I see other people are doing that, but I'm not.

• 51:50Mirna Valerio?

  Well, I have a black friend and or my husband is black or my wife is black. And so that doesn't happen to, I don't do that. That doesn't happen to me. It doesn't apply to me.

• 52:01Rich Roll?

  It's a way of shirking responsibility for dealing with the broader problem.

• 52:06Mirna Valerio?

  Or.

• 52:07Rich Roll?

  Or unpacking what is like the systemic imprint of all of this upon our own personal psyches that's so deeply embedded that we're not consciously aware of how it gets manifest in our daily lives.

• 52:20Mirna Valerio?

  And that's, that's part of what I do. So in the course, you know, we talk about identity. We talk about how identity is the way in which we experience the world. I mean, that's our framework, you know, our, you know, our gender, wherever we are on that gender spectrum, our race. All of that informs how we experience the world and how people perceive us. Right? You look at me as a black woman, you're going to have thoughts about what it is I probably do, how I, how I speak. You probably have thoughts about that.

• 52:55Rich Roll?

  What are you really up to?

• 52:56Mirna Valerio?

  You know, what, yeah. Why are you here?

• 52:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:01Mirna Valerio?

  Why are you at this hotel? You know, um, and, uh, why are you at my gym? I could go on and on, but you know, I mean, but identity really is that framework. And once you realize that as a white person or, or as a black person, your world, your experience in life is racialized. Once you see that, it is mind blowing. And hopefully you are then able to see others' perspectives and to see how they might walk

• 53:43Mirna Valerio?

  through the world or how they, how they might experience something. And so there's a lot of, um, you know, when I was-

• 53:49Rich Roll?

  It's broadening your empathy aperture.

• 53:52Mirna Valerio?

  Yes, absolutely. Um, you know, when I, when I was talking about my experience running on my own street and someone essentially gaslighting me saying like, well, you know, obviously somebody was scared because you were holding your, uh, your walking stick, uh, and, and not legitimizing the story that I just told and making it into something else. Or saying, oh, that, well, that didn't really happen.

• 54:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Mirna Valerio?

  You know, when, when we're able to see others' experiences for what they are, there's less gaslighting, there's more legitimizing of my experience and then hopefully movement away from blaming me for whatever just happened and movement towards what can I do to help? What can I do with my own attitudes and my, what, how have I been socialized, um, to believe that you're not supposed to be running on this road?

• 54:47Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:49Mirna Valerio?

  Let me look into that.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  There does seem to be an awakening right now, though. There is a crack in this firmament. You know, we're having these conversations. There seems to be a lot of energy going into trying to transcend this, you know, systemic situation. But at the same time, we're now, we're at the end of July. There's been some distance between the events that catalyzed everything. Do you feel like we're perpetuating the momentum? And we're in a position to create real change? Or do you feel like it's waning? Like, where, how are you sensing?

• 55:32Mirna Valerio?

  All of the above.

• 55:33Rich Roll?

  Right now?

• 55:34Mirna Valerio?

  I think it's all of the above.

• 55:35Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, yeah. There was lightning in a bottle for a minute. Do we still have that lightning in the bottle? Or are we moving on? Like, we did that.

• 55:45Mirna Valerio?

  I think many of us are moving on. Yeah, we did that. That's over. We're a post-racial society again. But I also think there is still momentum. I still get lots and lots of calls about.

• 55:58Rich Roll?

  A lot of the, you know, Karen activity, you know, the Karen who's in that white SUV is now kind of pivoted to Karen's going crazy about masks.

• 56:08Mirna Valerio?

  Right. You said it, I didn't. But yeah, I mean, so that's continuing to happen. And, and really, when you see those videos, it's only white people and white women. Well, just, it's white women and white men doing it. You don't see people of color doing that with the whole fake civil liberties issue and wearing masks. But, you know, I think to a certain extent, this is a very ripe time for doing this work and moving ahead. And as I said, like, I am getting lots of calls to work with companies and I, that's. Not what I am used to doing. You know, because I think I have a different model.

• 56:54Mirna Valerio?

  As far as the education, the pedagogical spin that I use to engage people in thinking about their identities and how that is the root of all of this stuff. And

• 57:10Rich Roll?

  Different from the

• 57:11Mirna Valerio?

  Different from

• 57:12Rich Roll?

  The basic human resources

• 57:13Mirna Valerio?

  Yes.

• 57:14Rich Roll?

  Kind of model of dealing with this, you mean?

• 57:15Mirna Valerio?

  And I, and I, and I will admit that that, a lot of the stuff that I did at school was that sort of human resources kind of thing. But obviously it doesn't work. We need a new model. I mean, it worked for what it needed to work for, but it doesn't really dismantle systemic and institutionalized racism. It doesn't.

• 57:36Mirna Valerio?

  So, I, you know, I think that when, I think we have to look at ourselves individually. You know, there, it has to be a multi-pronged approach. You have your, if you are in a business or something like that, or your, or your workplace, it has to come from the top, it also has to come from within. You have to be examining your, your attitudes, your beliefs, you know, whoever you are, when you know, whether you're white, whether you are a person of color.

• 58:02Mirna Valerio?

  And using that knowledge to

• 58:06Mirna Valerio?

  to further deepen and improve your relationships with other people.

• 58:11Mirna Valerio?

  Because, you know, there's this whole issue of proximity. Like when you don't have a real relationship with somebody outside of your community, that's where the issues start. You don't know. Like that lady on the trail, like doing, during the hike, she probably didn't know any black people.

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:29Mirna Valerio?

  And so, I was a surprise to her. And so she didn't know how to act. And so she thought I didn't know what I was doing. And so when you don't have relationships with somebody like me, or, you know, out on the trail, for example, you're not going to

• 58:47Mirna Valerio?

  Treat me in a way that I feel welcome.

• 58:51Mirna Valerio?

  Or treat me like you treat everybody else. And I think that that goes for any sort of relationship, whether you're in a workplace, whether you're just your personal relationships. I think proximity is is is very, very important. And the more you know yourself and the more you know about other people's identities, the better you are able to relate.

• 59:10Rich Roll?

  So the pathological difference that you're the place that you're coming from that that's distinct from the the typical human resources model is what like what is what are you finding is most effective in terms of getting people to think differently about this and ultimately behave differently?

• 59:28Mirna Valerio?

  First of all, with racism, you have to be able to name it so that you can actually see it, right? And there are all of these different types of racism. And no one, you know, before, we didn't want to talk about racism too deeply because it's too heavy.

• 59:43Mirna Valerio?

  And a lot of people are coming from this colorblind ideology where, you know, we, you know, we are all the same people, we're all, you know, part of the human race, which is true, right? But then you, when you don't acknowledge that our experiences are racialized, then that that's where the problem starts. And so, and so that's sort of the that was the MO of diversity education, right? So but now, I think, you know, when you start naming racism, you start talking about microaggressions and what they are, what they look like, you start talking about, you know, what overt racism is, you know, that's the sort of KKK, Proud Boys, Boogaloo's, like, that's that overt racism.

• 1:00:26Mirna Valerio?

  And yes, absolutely, it happens, but the other kind covert racism, that's the kind we have to watch out for. And so when you can name that, when you can, you know, again, talk about microaggressions or

• 1:00:42Mirna Valerio?

  Or the colorblindness because that perpetuates racism? And actually, and people say that they're colorblind because they don't want to look like they're racists.

• 1:00:50Rich Roll?

  Well, also, I think, as somebody of my generation, we were brought up to believe that this is, not only is this the aspiration, but to be non-racist is to be colorblind, right? And that, that belies the underlying truth that perpetuates racism, which is to acknowledge these differences in order to transcend them.

• 1:01:11Mirna Valerio?

  Right. And so you're, you kind of let yourself off the hook when you say that you are colorblind. And I, I do want to acknowledge that that is a really ableist term. Color-evasiveness is probably a better term, but it's not used as widely. But, um, yeah, you, you let yourself off the hook. You, when you don't acknowledge that this actually exists and that my experience may be different from yours because I'm black and you are white, then you are absolutely perpetuating racism.

• 1:01:41Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:42Mirna Valerio?

  Right? Because when you, when you can't see it, when you don't see it, when you choose not to see it, you don't do anything about it.

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Yeah, I get that. I get that. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a heavy pill to swallow, but I don't think that we get to the other side of it without reckoning with that in a real way.

• 1:02:02Mirna Valerio?

  Absolutely. And so, and, and so why, this is why my approach is, like, it focuses on here, all the different kinds of racism that you might see.

• 1:02:09Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:10Mirna Valerio?

  You know, when, uh, when you say that I am very articulate, what are you really saying? And when you say that with a sense of surprise and wonder, what are you saying? What is your underlying belief that made you surprised that I'm able to articulate myself in this particular way?

• 1:02:26Rich Roll?

  This black person sitting across from me is much smarter than I expected because my expectation level is premised upon...

• 1:02:33Rich Roll?

  A base, underlying assumption that you're going to be less intelligent.

• 1:02:38Mirna Valerio?

  Right, yeah, that's absolutely what it is.

• 1:02:39Rich Roll?

  That's horrible.

• 1:02:41Mirna Valerio?

  My kid gets that all the time.

• 1:02:42Rich Roll?

  And no one wants to think, yeah, of course, no one wants to believe that they would harbor that, even if they're doing it unconsciously.

• 1:02:50Mirna Valerio?

  But if you can see that in yourself, and I know that when I mention that particular thing in my course and people, I can see people's body language, because maybe they have said that at one point to somebody who was black. That is the prime learning opportunity right there, because it's really uncomfortable. And I, you know, and I focus on, I was like, look, this is uncomfortable work. You know, I'm not going to call, I'm not going to outright call you a racist, because I don't know who you are. I'm not going to say that. But if you can realize and acknowledge that some of the beliefs that you have, that you

• 1:03:30Mirna Valerio?

  have, or that you've been socialized with are based on racist assumptions and stereotypes, then we can actually move. So, or move forward, rather. So it's really interesting to, to see that process happening. I did, I do get questions. I actually don't allow questions while I'm presenting.

• 1:03:51Rich Roll?

  Well, I saw your, you posted that thread. You said, you posted that, you like reposted somebody who had posted a thread of, you know, the questions to ask in the midst of this kind of training to disrupt.

• 1:04:05Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:05Rich Roll?

  The curriculum.

• 1:04:07Mirna Valerio?

  Right. And, you know, I'm the boss, so, you know, I get to decide how I want my course to be, because a lot of times it derails the work. A lot of times, people will want to argue for argument's sake, or play the double advocate.

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  It's bad faith obfuscation to try to.

• 1:04:22Mirna Valerio?

  Right, that's absolutely, yeah. And so I, I'm not doing it. This is my course, I developed it, you asked me, you came to me, and you paid me to educate you, so that's what I'm going to do. And so, yeah, and so like, and it's, and it's great to like, kind of lay these like, really heavy things down and allow people to process it in pairs, in breakout sessions on Zoom, which is a really cool feature, I think. Because I, you know, people need time to.

• 1:04:52Mirna Valerio?

  To really, to relate the conceptual stuff to their own lives. Right? Here's a definition of racism. Here's a definition of microaggressions. Where have you seen that in your lives? You know, have you seen it happening to other people? Has, have, has a microaggression occurred in your own life? You know, as a woman? Has someone said to you, "You're strong for a woman." Or, "You're fast for a woman." You know, those are all things that we hear constantly. And they come at us, they just come at us all the time. And they have a cumulative negative effect. And so, once people can see that, you know, whether we're talking about gender or, or

• 1:05:33Mirna Valerio?

  class, when you can actually see that and name it, then you can do something about it.

• 1:05:50Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be an uphill battle, though, when you're doing this. It's one thing to do it for people who are going out of their way to sign up for it and pay for it. But if you're coming into a corporation and you're in front of a group of people who are employees who've just been told, like, "You have to do this." Like, that they didn't necessarily volunteer for it or want to be there. And they're, you know, leaning back.

• 1:06:13Mirna Valerio?

  Oh, yeah, you have the body language.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  Like, resentful that they have to be there in the first place. In order to really, you know, penetrate that kind of psyche and get them to grok where you're coming from, you're gonna have to get them to put their guard down a little bit.

• 1:06:26Mirna Valerio?

  But here's, yeah, there's that. But I also think that people who think they are not racist and who are liberals and progressives, that's the community I want to work with. Because I think that's where a lot of the danger lies. When you think you are not perpetuating racism.

• 1:06:45Rich Roll?

  So elaborate on that. Yeah, elaborate on that. Because that's a lot of people.

• 1:06:48Mirna Valerio?

  I mean, look at the Cooper lady. Who, the Central Park.

• 1:06:54Rich Roll?

  Right. The Hillary Clinton-supporting.

• 1:06:57Mirna Valerio?

  The Hillary Clinton, Obama-supporting woman, who then turns and tries to get this black man arrested.

• 1:07:08Rich Roll?

  We all saw the video.

• 1:07:09Mirna Valerio?

  We saw the video. I mean, that's exactly what that is.

• 1:07:11Rich Roll?

  The guy who's on the board of the Audubon Society, the Harvard grad.

• 1:07:16Mirna Valerio?

  Christian Cooper. I believe the name, the lady's name is Rebecca Cooper, maybe. But yeah, but that's precisely the type of person-

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  Right, they had the same last name.

• 1:07:25Mirna Valerio?

  That I would like to work with.

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:28Mirna Valerio?

  People who, you know, they have given money to all of the progressive liberal things and they, and they think that they are, they are post-racial. And they're actually not. That's the, that's the kind of people I want to work with. The people who are-

• 1:07:43Rich Roll?

  So how do you then, so, so that person's sitting in front of you, how do you begin to, you know, deconstruct their identity around this?

• 1:07:51Mirna Valerio?

  We go through a variety of, of exercises. I have to always define, I try to make sure that I define what these things are. We define identity, we define what, you know, social justice work is. And then we go, we go through, here, race is an identity, gender is an identity, sexual preference or sexual orientation, that's an identity. We go through all of that so they can see that all of these things, all of these aspects of who you are, you know, inform the way you walk through the world. And so I ask them to look at a part of their identity before we start talking about

• 1:08:30Mirna Valerio?

  race and, and really examine where they have been privileged with this particular identity and how this identity offers disadvantage. So we talk about privilege and disadvantage. And then it really gets them thinking about, oh, well, you know, I'm a woman. And so a lot of times people think I am not strong or that I am bossy when a man would be seen as assertive.

• 1:09:03Rich Roll?

  So in other words, you're trying to get them to identify with some analog of that experience in their own lives.

• 1:09:09Mirna Valerio?

  Right. And to be really conversant in the language. I think that is very, very important to know what those things are. Because again, when you name it-

• 1:09:20Mirna Valerio?

  You can know it, right? And you can see it.

• 1:09:26Mirna Valerio?

  And so, and there's a lot of pushback. Oh, well, that's so, that's just, you know, all this political correctness. But like, political correctness is really aimed at people not being assholes and, and thinking before they speak. Thinking before they act. That's what that is. I mean, and it takes, it takes energy and effort. So.

• 1:09:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, but I like that approach because the alternative is saying, you think you're a good person and you do all these things that are civic minded, but you're actually not a good person.

• 1:09:59Mirna Valerio?

  Well, I mean, I'm not telling people that they're bad people.

• 1:10:02Rich Roll?

  I know, I know. But like, but that's how it will be, it will be received, right? And then immediately that person's going to shut down.

• 1:10:07Mirna Valerio?

  But here's where pedagogy comes in. So you give them opportunities to practice on the thing that you're not talking about yet, right? You give them opportunities to practice with gender, to practice with socioeconomic.

• 1:10:20Rich Roll?

  What if you're a white dude like me?

• 1:10:24Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:10:25Mirna Valerio?

  Yes, but like, you know, there, there, but there are tons of aspects of identity. I mean, like, you know, you, we have, you know, in addition to race, ethnicity, we've got your regional background, that's a part of your identity. Body image is a part of your identity because that is very culturally informed. Did I say class? Class. You know, how does your class privilege you? How does it disadvantage you? The way your body looks? How does that privilege you? How does that disadvantage you? Your leisure activities, you know? What does that say about how you are privileged in life? What does it say about how, like, your, your lack of access to leisure activities?

• 1:11:09Mirna Valerio?

  What does that say about your class, about where you live, about your access to leisure? And so there are all these different things. Your family structure, you know? A lot of times, I've been married for 20 years, so a lot of people don't know that. And you know, it's, it looks like a traditional family from the outside, but we're not traditional. But like, your family structure might privilege you or disadvantage you. A lot of people thought that I was a single mom.

• 1:11:36Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:37Mirna Valerio?

  Uh, they probably still think I'm a single mom, uh, cause my husband is not on social media.

• 1:11:41Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:41Mirna Valerio?

  Um, and so people are going to have a particular reaction to me thinking that I am a single mom. You know, maybe she's one of those black ladies that just, whatever, didn't wanna get married or whatever. Um, I get a lot of that. That sort of attitude, um.

• 1:11:59Rich Roll?

  Or the husband and the dad split.

• 1:12:00Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, where's the baby daddy? That sort of thing. Um, and so the way you speak, your accent, that is a part of your identity, the language you, you speak. Um, the, my, my husband is West African, so he speaks with a Francophone, uh, French accent. Um, and people will have a particular reaction. You know, they'll slow their speech down and get louder. Because they think that he doesn't understand them. And so all of those things affect the way you, just you are, the way you, people look at you, the way they react with you, the way they react to you or interact with you.

• 1:12:42Mirna Valerio?

  Um, and so, you know, you're from Maryland, right?

• 1:12:46Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:47Mirna Valerio?

  Maryland.

• 1:12:48Rich Roll?

  Michigan originally.

• 1:12:49Mirna Valerio?

  Michigan originally, but okay.

• 1:12:50Rich Roll?

  I grew up in Maryland.

• 1:12:51Mirna Valerio?

  You grew up in Maryland, right? And so, um.

• 1:12:54Rich Roll?

  But I grew up in, I grew up in Bethesda.

• 1:12:56Mirna Valerio?

  Bethesda, right?

• 1:12:57Rich Roll?

  I was born in Gross Point, Michigan. Like, I'm, you know, I grew up upper middle class and then, you know, upper class, basically. Like, I come from a privileged background and I'm a white dude.

• 1:13:08Mirna Valerio?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  And I've gone through my life aware of that privilege, but not to the extent that you're speaking of.

• 1:13:17Mirna Valerio?

  Mm.

• 1:13:18Rich Roll?

  Like, I haven't thought about it. As broadly as I should have.

• 1:13:22Mirna Valerio?

  Right. And so, yeah, so all of these things, and well, now's your opportunity. To start thinking about those things and.

• 1:13:29Rich Roll?

  And I, and I feel like, you know, as somebody who's been in recovery for a long time and who's been in therapy forever, like I'm, I feel, you know, fairly equipped to do the introspective part of this. And I know how to take, you know, personal inventory of my behavior. Like, I have plenty of work to do, believe me, but I'm probably better suited to doing that kind of stuff than a lot of people who haven't had the privilege to have some of those experiences where they've been compelled to look inward.

• 1:14:01Mirna Valerio?

  Right.

• 1:14:02Rich Roll?

  In a way that I have.

• 1:14:03Mirna Valerio?

  I mean.

• 1:14:03Rich Roll?

  So I don't know what that means, but I think recognizing that, that the work is hard.

• 1:14:08Mirna Valerio?

  It's hard and it's.

• 1:14:09Rich Roll?

  Is important.

• 1:14:09Mirna Valerio?

  It's hard for me. I mean, like, it is so hard.

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  What about, in your mind, like, how does social media play into all of this? There's great things about it and terrible things. It's being, you know, weaponized for villainous purposes, but it's also cast a spotlight on these issues in a, in a unique way that we haven't seen in the history of humanity. And I just know that I can find myself paralyzed wanting to say the right thing or being part of the solution. You're smiling. And, and yet feeling like, do I really want to hit publish on this? Like, what's going to happen? Did I get this right? Am I wrong? Where's that fear coming from? Why do I feel that way? Should I, should I not? You know, you know, do you understand this thing? Like, what's going on with it?

• 1:14:55Mirna Valerio?

  So much. Social media absolutely plays, I think, both a positive and negative part, a negative role in all of this. And I think that the big social media companies, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, the other ones, TikTok. Am I missing any?

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  There's more.

• 1:15:18Mirna Valerio?

  MySpace. Friendster.

• 1:15:22Mirna Valerio?

  Throwbacks, I think they have a huge responsibility. And number one, figuring out like, is this the world that we want to be in? Are we going to be the ones who enable racism to continue happening? Or sexism, or you know, with the whole like Gamergate, for example? You know, that just continues to go on and on and on. And you know, all in the name of free speech. But what is free speech really? Like, what is it? Is it, you know, are we going to continue to denigrate people of certain races? Or sexes, or genders, or whatever?

• 1:16:05Mirna Valerio?

  Are we going to continue to let that happen in the name of free speech? You know, are we going to continue to endanger the lives of people who are black? Who are people of color? Who are women? Who are trans? And I think that, I think social media plays a huge part in that. Because, you know, look at what's happening with misinformation spreading. And you know, on the various platforms.

• 1:16:31Rich Roll?

  We're, you know, puppets in this massive experiment in humanity. And I don't think that we're outfitted to really navigate it as consciously as we should. Like, they're completely unregulated. These companies are, you know, some better than others, trying to figure out how to get their heads around how to better, you know, create a healthier environment for global conversation. But we're not doing a very good job. You know what I mean? And, and, and, and I think it's, it's also making us aware of how easily manipulated we are

• 1:17:15Rich Roll?

  when information campaigns are targeted in a specific way to get us to behave and think in a very specific way. And we haven't really figured out a solution for this. And yet it continues to grow and expand and become more and more a part of our lives.

• 1:17:33Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, and it's really scary. It's especially scary.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  And we're both beneficiaries of these platforms.

• 1:17:41Mirna Valerio?

  Absolutely, thank you, everybody.

• 1:17:44Mirna Valerio?

  Thank you Instagram.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  Which makes it make, which, you know, creates another layer of like weirdness, right?

• 1:17:50Mirna Valerio?

  It is, it is really weird.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  I'm participating in this thing. I'm benefiting from it, but it's also problematic.

• 1:17:56Mirna Valerio?

  But you're trying to participate in a way that gives back and that gives good stuff to people. Right?

• 1:18:03Rich Roll?

  I'm trying, yeah.

• 1:18:04Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah. And I, and I think that I would say that of myself also, I, you know, I am not trying to, number one, spread misinformation and definitely not trying to be racist or sexist or homophobic or, or what have you, or classist. But then there are entities that are out there trying to do that. QAnon, hello. And.

• 1:18:26Rich Roll?

  They're finally trying to crack down on the QAnon.

• 1:18:29Mirna Valerio?

  How long did that take? You know, and, and, and speaking of, you know, being in a really weird space, like I just participated on this Facebook panel for community leaders. I have a very large community on Facebook called Fat Girl Running. It's amazing. You don't have to be fat to join. And they really wanted to uplift black community, Facebook group, community leaders. And it was a phenomenal discussion sponsored by Facebook utilizing Facebook tools. That, that's the world that I want to be in. But then you have the other side of.

• 1:19:07Rich Roll?

  Then you square that with their ad revenue model and what they're allowing to take place there. And it doesn't, it, it's, it's, it almost feels like they're doing that to distract you from what they're really doing and what their, you know, what their business is really premised upon. And it's confusing when, you know, campaign advertising is just a drop in the bucket of how they make their money. And it would be so easy for them to say, we're dispensing with that. And it really wouldn't affect their bottom line or their P and L in a meaningful way.

• 1:19:37Mirna Valerio?

  So what, the question is what, what is really behind that? You know, I mean, I don't know. It's a rhetorical question, but maybe it's not a rhetorical question. You know, what is, what is behind that? The fact that they won't end that.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  And by you doing that panel, it just gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

• 1:19:57Mirna Valerio?

  It does. And, you know, I'm like, oh, Facebook all the way.

• 1:20:01Mirna Valerio?

  But yeah, but I don't forget. I mean, there is a huge cognitive dissonance there where, you know, you have that part of Facebook, that really sort of dark part of Facebook and then, but then all of the the good stuff. And I, you know, I'm, I'm gonna keep doing the good stuff. It's never gonna be balanced. You know, there's always gonna be the the dark matter to contend with. But but I think that's the way the world works, you know, even though there's a lot of dark stuff, there's a lot of heavy stuff. We have to. I think that, you know, if you have joy to exude, then you should. If you have good things to give, then you

• 1:20:40Mirna Valerio?

  should. Maybe we won't win. Well, you know, we should still do it.

• 1:20:47Rich Roll?

  There is something to be said for, you know, the power of the camera that we all have in our pocket and the fact that so many of these incidents that have created the upheaval were documented on video and shared on social media platforms that catalyzed this conversation. There's a cascade effect where that leads to backlash and a lot of anger and all the other things that we're seeing at the same time. But we can't extract social media from the, you know, the current state of affairs with respect to the civil rights movement, right? Those things are completely integrated in a way that I think is new. And there's certainly benefits to that as well.

• 1:21:27Mirna Valerio?

  And that it's the way that this generation operates, you know, you think about digital natives and like, that is the way that they live. You think of my son, you know, who does everything online.

• 1:21:40Rich Roll?

  What's his thing? Is he TikTok? Is TikTok his thing?

• 1:21:42Mirna Valerio?

  No, TikTok is is for young people, he thinks.

• 1:21:46Rich Roll?

  Do you have a TikTok account?

• 1:21:47Mirna Valerio?

  I do not have a TikTok account.

• 1:21:49Rich Roll?

  My daughters told me that I was not allowed to get a TikTok account.

• 1:21:52Mirna Valerio?

  I'm also not allowed to. I was not allowed to have Snapchat.

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  I had that for a while and my daughters were not happy. I haven't used it in forever.

• 1:22:03Mirna Valerio?

  And yeah, it's a, it's, it's a really interesting thing, an interesting way that they live now. Everything is online and, and that's how they communicate with one another.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  Well, it's creating a whole new language. I mean, my daughters communicate on TikTok, not through, like, they'll make videos that are shared publicly that are, in a weird way, like communications with their friends that only they can decode. It's so strange.

• 1:22:37Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, my, my son makes, uh, his big thing is making you, uh, gaming commentary videos. And I have not seen any of these. I hear him.

• 1:22:49Rich Roll?

  Does he stream, like, a game?

• 1:22:51Mirna Valerio?

  He doesn't stream. Well, he like, he, he'll play the game and then he, I don't actually really know what he does. But he has a, he has a whole setup in his room with a lot of computers and mics and stuff. And, and then I hear him creating soundbites, because that's what they do. And, uh, and then commenting on various people playing games and there's a lot of cursing.

• 1:23:13Rich Roll?

  Does that on YouTube?

• 1:23:16Mirna Valerio?

  It's, apparently it is. He will not allow me to see any of the videos, because he says that they are cringe-worthy. So, but you know, that's, that's a way of being for him. And, uh, whether or not he's communicating with other people, I don't know.

• 1:23:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Mirna Valerio?

  But, uh, yeah.

• 1:23:38Rich Roll?

  The world is moving fast, Mirna.

• 1:23:40Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, it is, it is. You know, I'm still on Facebook and Instagram. Maybe I'll be dancing on TikTok. Who knows?

• 1:23:47Rich Roll?

  Right. All right. So, let's go back to allyship. Like, what does it look like to you to be, for someone like myself, to be like, a good white ally?

• 1:23:59Mirna Valerio?

  Um, I wish we could get rid of the word ally.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  Let's get rid of it, then. What would you, what should it be called?

• 1:24:06Mirna Valerio?

  Be an advocate and do the work. That's what, that's what it looks like. It looks like you, um, doing what you do now. Um, asking questions of yourself. Um, evaluating your behavior, your actions, your attitudes, your thoughts, all the time. It's really, really tiring. But that's what you have to do if you want to continue doing the work, if you want to be an anti-racist, if you want to... Call yourself someone who is an advocate. I think ally is a term that's been diluted. So I think a better, a better way to think of, of doing this work is advocacy, advocacy for other people.

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:24:45Mirna Valerio?

  And

• 1:24:46Rich Roll?

  I like, I like transcending the, the, some of these words.

• 1:24:50Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, like body positivity.

• 1:24:51Rich Roll?

  I think, I think people

• 1:24:52Mirna Valerio?

  That's another word that I can't stand.

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. When I was getting ready for today, I read an article, I was poking around the internet to see what was new with you that, that I might not have, have come across previously. And there was, there was a woman who wrote an article that was titled something like, "Body positivity isn't enough, we need inclusivity." And it was premised upon her being mistaken for you. Did you see this?

• 1:25:15Mirna Valerio?

  Was it Latoya?

• 1:25:16Rich Roll?

  I can't remember. I don't know.

• 1:25:19Mirna Valerio?

  Or Latryagram. Yeah. We get, we get confused all the time.

• 1:25:23Rich Roll?

  But it was interesting because it was all about like, because you're, you know, the moniker that gets attached to you is, oh, she's the body positivity person. But it's really, it's about moving past that

• 1:25:34Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Rich Roll?

  to something bigger and broader.

• 1:25:37Mirna Valerio?

  Right. You can, you can say that. I believe all bodies are good bodies. You can say that, but do you really believe that?

• 1:25:43Rich Roll?

  And are you going to welcome that person?

• 1:25:45Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, right. Are you going to welcome like, I, I am considered a small fat. There are all these like, all of these names for differently sized fat people. There's like super fat and there's some other types of fat people, but like to a certain extent, I, my kind of fatness is, is acceptable. But then anyone who's bigger than I am, and, and a lot of the body positive community is not seen as acceptable. So like the, the term body positivity, like what does it even mean?

• 1:26:17Rich Roll?

  The striations of the body positivity community.

• 1:26:20Mirna Valerio?

  Does it even mean that all bodies are good bodies? Or are only certain bodies good bodies? And so that's why, that's why I, I try not to use the term anymore. I, I do prefer to use inclusion because you include more and more people into your sphere, whether it's body positivity, whether it's, you know, whether, whether we're talking about combating and dismantling racism.

• 1:26:49Rich Roll?

  When you're giving your talks or you're going to all these races when there wasn't COVID, do you bifurcate the diversity training part of your brain and your advocacy from Mirna, the Myrnavator, the runner, the inclusivity on the trails person? Or are these all, do you think of these things as being-

• 1:27:11Mirna Valerio?

  It's all wrapped up into one sort of thing. Because when I get hired to speak, you know, I, all of the various things that I do and that I'm about, I mean, that's what I do, you know? So if you invite me to speak, and chances are you're inviting me to speak to, to either talk about diversity in the outdoors or to talk about, you know, I give a thing called, a workshop called Passion Forward, where I speak on your work being a reflection of your core values. And my core values, and I present my core values, my core values are joy, adventure, community, and inclusion. That's everything I am.

• 1:27:56Mirna Valerio?

  So, and I think that permeates, anytime I, anytime I do a workshop, that, that sentiment of, you know, my core values permeate every single word that I say.

• 1:28:09Rich Roll?

  I like that. I like the clarity on your core values.

• 1:28:12Mirna Valerio?

  It took me a long time to get there.

• 1:28:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how did you, how did you, what was that process like?

• 1:28:16Mirna Valerio?

  Well, because people kept asking me about my brand.

• 1:28:20Mirna Valerio?

  What? I don't, I'm not a company. I mean, I am, but-

• 1:28:24Rich Roll?

  It's a weird thing, isn't it?

• 1:28:26Mirna Valerio?

  What's your brand? What's your brand? And then as I started looking into what a brand is, there was a lot of talk about core values and guiding principles. I was like, oh, I can get with that. I know what my core values are. And then, and then I had to, I was at an event that I wasn't supposed to be speaking at, and all of a sudden I was called to, to speak in place of someone who couldn't make their, their workshop. And I, so I had to develop a workshop in 24 hours. On something career related. And so I'm really good at this. Oh, you want me to speak in 20 minutes? Okay. Do you have any idea of what you want me?

• 1:29:12Mirna Valerio?

  Okay, I got it. I got it. Done.

• 1:29:15Rich Roll?

  That's from decades of being an educator. A teacher. That would make me panic. I wouldn't be able to do that.

• 1:29:21Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, I mean, had it been a few years before, I would have, I would have panicked. Because this is a new community to me. This is a fancy, Ariai-type, outdoor community that I had to do this in front of. And so I said, okay, well, I'm very happy that I was a teacher. And I know how to do that. I know how to put together a lesson plan and, you know, have some learning goals and some experiential stuff in there. And so that's what I did. And I said, well, you know, I can talk about my transition from being a teacher to doing what I do now and how I achieved, how I was able to leave teaching and still kind of maintain some integrity about who I am and this new thing that I do.

• 1:30:06Mirna Valerio?

  And so, and then I came up with those four things as sort of my guiding principles. Like in the couple of hours that I had before I had to do this, this presentation. And so as I, you know, I've refined it a little bit. And because I had, there were some other things that were my core values. But those, those are the four that really, really speak to me and are really present in everything that I do. So.

• 1:30:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And are you still doing the, you've got these running retreats? The slow as fuck running retreats? Did you actually do these?

• 1:30:39Mirna Valerio?

  I did.

• 1:30:40Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 1:30:41Mirna Valerio?

  I absolutely did.

• 1:30:42Rich Roll?

  That's like the best name ever for a running retreat.

• 1:30:45Mirna Valerio?

  You know, over and over again.

• 1:30:46Rich Roll?

  Because it's like, oh, all the fear that people have, like, I can't do a running retreat.

• 1:30:51Mirna Valerio?

  It immediately tears down a wall.

• 1:30:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:30:53Mirna Valerio?

  Oh, well, I think I can do that. I can.

• 1:30:55Rich Roll?

  I'm slow as fuck.

• 1:30:56Mirna Valerio?

  Right, exactly. Exactly. And so, and that.

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  What are those about? Where do you do those?

• 1:31:03Mirna Valerio?

  So yes, they are called Slow as Fuck, Trail Running Adventures.

• 1:31:07Mirna Valerio?

  And I created them specifically to serve a community that is made up of runners. Some of them are plus-size runners, some of them are not, but everybody's slow.

• 1:31:24Mirna Valerio?

  And by slow, I mean, we don't run 10-minute miles.

• 1:31:28Rich Roll?

  What if you're fast and you want to go?

• 1:31:29Mirna Valerio?

  And I tell people, I said, "This is not for you. This is not the experience for you." Because we're going to be on the trails, we will run, we will walk, we will take selfies, we will have a picnic, it'll be a whole day thing. This is not competitive. You should not be, you should not consider this as training, because we're just gonna, we're gonna play it by ear, yeah, play it by ear, and yes, pick daisies. We're going to climb mountains, we're gonna do some, we're gonna do some sort of reflection work, and we're gonna have a good time. So, yeah.

• 1:32:07Rich Roll?

  How many people?

• 1:32:08Mirna Valerio?

  The very first one I did was 22 people, which was a lot of people.

• 1:32:13Rich Roll?

  Do you just do it in your backyard trails? Or do you go somewhere?

• 1:32:17Mirna Valerio?

  No, I rent a house somewhere, and that's near a lot of trails. And, yeah, and I bring people in, I contract a lot of people in to do yoga, meditation, to, you know, had Roz Mays, who's a pole dancer, come in and do some sensual movement without a pole, just so that, and with the goal being that people begin to get more comfortable in their own bodies and in the space that they inhabit, and they transfer that out onto the trails and hopefully in the rest of their lives. And so, so that was fun.

• 1:32:53Mirna Valerio?

  And so, yeah, so that's what we do. Another thing that I'm good at is bringing people in to create like a really fantastic experience that just is not only centered on me, because, you know, I can get annoying.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  People who can talk about other stuff, do you give presentations, stuff like that?

• 1:33:08Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, that are fun, that are engaging. So I did my first virtual, it wasn't called Slow as Fuck, it was Love Your Body, Love Your Body and Run, virtual retreat. And so we did that, and had some of the same people do, like Roz did her sensual movement on Zoom. Uh, you know, we, we, we read and we did some writing. Uh, we talked, we did talk about body image in that. And then the beginning of the day and the end of the day were reserved for running.

• 1:33:37Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:33:38Mirna Valerio?

  And we, and every run was prompted. So you always had a prompt from the, the writing teacher, uh, that was there that you'd be able to think about on your run.

• 1:33:45Rich Roll?

  Right. So they're like theme based. I like that. That's cool.

• 1:33:49Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah. That's the teacher in me.

• 1:33:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When do you think we're going to be able to get back to doing stuff with people in person again?

• 1:33:56Mirna Valerio?

  Oh, maybe the end of next year. I don't think it's going to be anytime soon.

• 1:34:00Rich Roll?

  I know. Do you have Zoom fatigue?

• 1:34:02Mirna Valerio?

  I, oh, absolutely. Sometimes, Jesus, I'm on Zoom a lot, like, and everyone wants to meet now. Everyone, you know, what used to be a phone call?

• 1:34:14Rich Roll?

  Right. Now we have to, it always has to be on video.

• 1:34:17Mirna Valerio?

  Or a FaceTime. I don't know. No, not at eight o'clock in the morning. Anyway.

• 1:34:23Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:34:24Mirna Valerio?

  Uh, and sometimes I just, I will just turn my video off and like, I don't, this could have been a phone call.

• 1:34:29Rich Roll?

  I find it very draining.

• 1:34:31Mirna Valerio?

  It is. Cause you always have to smile. You're always on. My face hurts after every single Zoom.

• 1:34:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Mirna Valerio?

  You know, or Microsoft Teams, whatever platform they're using. But, uh, that is definitely tiring. But I think people really are, are hungry for, um, interaction and, and connection with human beings outside of their homes.

• 1:34:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. I mean, I, I don't know. I just, this is like my one outlet where I get to be with people. And other than that, I'm just at home, aside from the occasional grocery store visit. And, uh, it's definitely, you know, I thought at the beginning of this whole coronavirus pandemic, stay at home thing, like, I'm kind of an introvert, you know, basically I like to stay at home anyway. I go trail running by myself. My life isn't that different. But, you know, even for somebody like me, who I felt, I feel like I've been training my whole life for this. Like, I'm going to be totally fine. It really has created like this melancholy that's, I think, going to be.

• 1:35:38Rich Roll?

  You know, I think we're gonna see a lot of mental health issues. You know, we're already starting to see it, but you know, long term. And what is it, what is the impact on young people? You know, I have a 16 year old daughter and a 13 year old daughter. Like, these are Corona kids. Like, what is, 20 years from now, what is the imprint of this experience on how they think about life? And what their experience is gonna be?

• 1:36:00Mirna Valerio?

  Right, I worry about my kid, who's extremely independent.

• 1:36:08Mirna Valerio?

  And, I mean, to a fault. And, you know, I remember the first couple of weeks that we were in lockdown.

• 1:36:18Mirna Valerio?

  This kid's not afraid of anything, but like, in the middle of the night, heard the wind knocking on the window and got freaked out. And I was like, okay, please check in on your kids. Because, you know, it was out of character. And he ran into my room, was like, what's that? You know, and so, I was like, oh, whoa, this is weird. Because, you know, nothing wakes him up, ever. But clearly, he was having some anxiety about something. And about not being able to, we travel a lot as a family, not being able to travel, not, you know, not being able to go outside without fearing getting sick. You know, he wouldn't go to the supermarket for a very long time.

• 1:37:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what is the psychological implication of just being afraid to be in the presence of another human being?

• 1:37:07Mirna Valerio?

  Right, and it's because they're in like, in this like, truly formative part of their development as teenagers. And so, whatever happens now, is going to stick with everybody. But like, particularly, you know, their brains are still developing. You know, that prefrontal cortex is not finished growing yet. And so, you know, I'm sure that there are, you know, some genetic imprints happening now because of coronavirus and lockdown and not being able to do the things that... Teenagers should be doing.

• 1:37:41Rich Roll?

  It would be an interesting like sociological experiment to look at the kids who went through the 1918 pandemic and to see, you know, what, what, what kind of culture was like 20, 30 years later and how that impacted like choices that they made.

• 1:37:57Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:57Rich Roll?

  Cause there's gotta be a corollary there and something we can learn from that, from looking at that.

• 1:38:02Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 1:38:03Mirna Valerio?

  Ooh, ooh, deep stuff.

• 1:38:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Is there a difference, um, living in, I mean, Vermont's a pretty progressive place. I would suspect compared to Georgia. Yeah, like it's gotta be different for you.

• 1:38:18Mirna Valerio?

  Vermont is magical. It is. I loved where I lived. I mean, like where I lived in Georgia, but I adore Vermont. I mean, it is for the most part, very progressive and, um, and liberal. Uh, I mean, I'm very left leaning, so I mean, it's kind of the perfect place for me to be. Um, even though it is, I think the third whitest state.

• 1:38:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pretty white there.

• 1:38:47Mirna Valerio?

  In the, in the country. But I definitely, I feel fairly safe. I live, everybody knows where I live. And where my son lives.

• 1:39:01Rich Roll?

  Why does everyone know where you live?

• 1:39:02Mirna Valerio?

  Because, well, I live on a very, uh, I live on Main Street. And I see everything and everyone passes through Main Street. Um, and, uh, and now that I, now that we've been home.

• 1:39:17Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:17Mirna Valerio?

  You know?

• 1:39:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:19Mirna Valerio?

  Uh, when I started living there, I was still traveling a lot. And so I would come for like two or three days.

• 1:39:25Rich Roll?

  What does your son do when you're gone?

• 1:39:26Mirna Valerio?

  He is, uh, my son is into culinary.

• 1:39:30Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:39:31Mirna Valerio?

  And, um, we call him G R T B for Gordon Ramsay the black.

• 1:39:36Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Okay.

• 1:39:39Mirna Valerio?

  He's obsessed with Gordon Ramsay and also culinary. So he, right now, he's actually, right now, having a cooking lesson with, with one of my friends.

• 1:39:46Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:39:47Mirna Valerio?

  Um, he's learning how to use.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  He didn't come on this trip here, though.

• 1:39:50Mirna Valerio?

  No, because he didn't, he didn't want to. He was, I said, hey, we're gonna be staying at a nice hotel and no. I'm just gonna enjoy the fact that I, I'm the only one using the bathroom. Uh, yeah, again, very independent, very, um, self-sufficient, um, loves cooking and loves, um, playing basketball. So he's found a friend, um, that plays basketball with him in, in Montpelier. And, you know, he's, he's having a good time. He really likes it. And like, I, I don't worry about him.

• 1:40:25Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:26Mirna Valerio?

  Uh, and, and actually, Montpelier has a new police chief, uh, who is black.

• 1:40:30Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:31Mirna Valerio?

  Um, we'll see what that means. Uh, but, uh, people are very, you know, people are very interested in social justice and they work actively towards it. Not everybody, but a lot of people do. Um, and, uh, there's a lot of discussion and, and conversation. Um, you know, after, after we had our Black Lives Matter protests in Montpelier, the number of people who said hi to me as I was running on the rec path or, you know, people, you know, honking their horn, hey! Like, you know, you can always be nice to black people.

• 1:41:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's kind of, that's kind of like the Venmo thing, right? A little bit?

• 1:41:16Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah, it is, it is.

• 1:41:17Rich Roll?

  And even for me, it's like, okay, you know, I reached out to you for you to come back on the podcast. So that's, is that really that different? You know, cause I was like, oh, I knew you were a diversity teacher. You know, we had a rapport from last time and I was like, oh, you'll be great to come and talk to you.

• 1:41:33Mirna Valerio?

  We actually know each other and we've had conversations.

• 1:41:36Rich Roll?

  But I found myself thinking, is she gonna think that like, cause it, I, I said the same thing to, uh, To a friend of mine the other day, I was like, oh, so you know, every black person's phone's ringing off the hook now, right?

• 1:41:50Mirna Valerio?

  It's true.

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so, and, and I did that, I reached out to you for you to come back on. And I'm thinking, well, Mirna, think that's weird, you know, weird?

• 1:42:00Mirna Valerio?

  No, I think, I think, I have this skill.

• 1:42:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:04Mirna Valerio?

  So I, so I think that for me, I saw the importance in exercising this muscle that I have in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion at this time, but not for everybody. You know, because a lot of people did reach out, um, you know, hey, can you talk about this or that, you know, when, when they're, when we don't have any previous relationship or, or because they don't know any other black people. So I've had to be very judicious about choosing when and where I speak and, and with whom.

• 1:42:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:42:41Mirna Valerio?

  Because it is overwhelming.

• 1:42:43Rich Roll?

  Did some of your sponsors reach out to you for help trying to figure out how to communicate around this?

• 1:42:48Mirna Valerio?

  Yes.

• 1:42:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I hope you, I hope you charge them for that. Because this is like, it's very important how they configure their, their, you know, corporate communication around this issue that's so fraught at the moment, right? Like, that's a very valuable service.

• 1:43:08Mirna Valerio?

  But I, but I've definitely said that as I, I can't solve your company's problems, what you know, whatever they might be in terms of systemic racism or structural racism within the company, but what I can do is I can talk to your people and give them some tools and strategies for, for educating themselves and for examining their own attitudes. Because I mean, that spills over into your work and your personal life, right? So you will need to hire somebody else to deal with that higher, the HR level type of thing.

• 1:43:39Rich Roll?

  Or the like, is this Instagram post okay?

• 1:43:41Mirna Valerio?

  Right. So yeah, I don't do that, but I, what I do is the interpersonal stuff. And, and so, yes, I've definitely.

• 1:43:51Mirna Valerio?

  I have some large clients.

• 1:43:53Rich Roll?

  Good, you should.

• 1:43:56Mirna Valerio?

  Which I will tell you off the air.

• 1:43:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, you're perfectly suited for that. You know, you have the experience. This is what you do.

• 1:44:05Mirna Valerio?

  Well, you know what? And I'm really grateful, but it's also like it's very necessary work. And, you know, if I can give to the movement in this one specific way, then I'm going to continue to do it.

• 1:44:17Rich Roll?

  All right, well, let's land this plane. But I can't let you go without getting a gauge on like, are we? Are you optimistic?

• 1:44:25Mirna Valerio?

  I am extremely optimistic. But my optimism is definitely rooted in reality. So like, you know, I use, you know, what's going on now? The awfulness of the situation or situations that we are in now. And I use that to sort of fill myself with hope because I know that I know that things can be better. And that I know that things have been better. They can be better again, but we have to do the work in order for that to happen. And so that's why, that's why I do what I do.

• 1:45:04Rich Roll?

  So if someone's listening to this and this is like their initiation into thinking about this a little bit more deeply than they have, where does that person begin? If they can't, you know, be privy to your.

• 1:45:17Mirna Valerio?

  To my very expensive course.

• 1:45:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, or like, where do you direct those people?

• 1:45:23Mirna Valerio?

  I, I think you should be reading. I think reading is really good. You know, you doing all of the, you know, looking through all the checklists. 25 resources for anti-racism.

• 1:45:42Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of those getting circulated around.

• 1:45:45Mirna Valerio?

  I think it's a very, very important starting point. But I also think that you should, and it's very, it's difficult now, but you need to broaden your circle. You need to have, you need to be proximate to different kinds of people. And start embracing their various identities. You know, examine your own. Examine the way in which you were socialized.

• 1:46:11Mirna Valerio?

  And then see other people, see others' identities. Embrace them. Welcome them into your life. I think that's a, that's the way to go.

• 1:46:24Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Thanks for coming here today.

• 1:46:27Mirna Valerio?

  It's my pleasure. It's always.

• 1:46:29Rich Roll?

  It was fun. You're always welcome here, Mirna.

• 1:46:32Mirna Valerio?

  Thank you.

• 1:46:33Rich Roll?

  Thanks. Good luck with the surgery in three weeks?

• 1:46:37Mirna Valerio?

  Ah, the end of August.

• 1:46:39Rich Roll?

  End of August.

• 1:46:39Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:40Rich Roll?

  What's the rehab plan for that? How long before you're back out there?

• 1:46:44Mirna Valerio?

  Start PT immediately, the day after. This is an arthroscopy thing. At Stay on the Bike. Got some bike videos coming up.

• 1:46:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:57Mirna Valerio?

  I'm a potential bike sponsor.

• 1:47:00Rich Roll?

  Ooh, shameless shout outs. You know where to reach her.

• 1:47:06Mirna Valerio?

  Um, oh, I already got one and it works, so.

• 1:47:09Rich Roll?

  Okay, good. All right, awesome.

• 1:47:11Mirna Valerio?

  And, um, yeah, and I, as soon as I can, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna push it. I'm not gonna force it. I'm gonna let my body heal. Cause literally there are no races until January and that might not even happen. So I'm just gonna let myself heal. If I need to keep hiking and cycling for longer, then I'm gonna keep doing that. I mean, I still get to be outside and I'm in Vermont.

• 1:47:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Mirna Valerio?

  I can stand up paddleboard, even though I hate that. You know, I can, I can do some climbing if I wanted to. I could, you know, I could swim in a lake, so I'm, I'm good.

• 1:47:44Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 1:47:45Mirna Valerio?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Rich Roll?

  All right. Um, if you wanna, if you wanna learn more about Mirna, check out the show notes on the episode page. I'll link up a bunch of stuff, including a bunch of the resources that we were talking about earlier. Definitely, we didn't even talk about your book. We talked about it last time, but a beautiful work in progress, which is a beautiful book. You did an amazing job on that book. I highly suggest everybody check that out. You can listen to our earlier conversation, which I'll link up in the show notes as well. And you're pretty easy to find on the internet at the Myrnivator, basically, right?

• 1:48:15Mirna Valerio?

  Yes.

• 1:48:15Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Thanks so much. Enjoy the rest of your stay here.

• 1:48:19Mirna Valerio?

  Thank you.

• 1:48:20Rich Roll?

  Thanks.

• 1:48:25Rich Roll?

  All right, we did that, and it was good. Hope you guys enjoyed that. She's just so lovely. What an incredible human being. My only regret from this conversation is that I didn't compel her or ask her to sing opera at the end, like I did at the end of our first conversation, episode 340. Go check that out if you missed it the first time. She has an incredible Juilliard-trained voice. And after the podcast, I was like, "Oh, I forgot to ask you to do it." And she said, "Oh, I was ready to do it. I was warming up and I was prepared to sing." So, anyway, again, my only regret. But that aside, I thought that was amazing. Hope you guys enjoyed it as well. Please give Myrna a shout out on the socials. Let her know how this one landed for you. She's

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  @themyrnavator on both Instagram and Twitter. We also have another Roll On AMA coming up this week, so if you would like your question answered, leave us a voicemail at 424-235-4626, or you can drop it on our Facebook group page. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I love seeing the screen grabs and little videos that people share, and I tend to spread them around from time to time, so thank you for that. And you can support us on Patreon at ritual.com/donate. Thanks to everybody who helps put on this show, week in, week out. Jason Camiolo for

• 1:49:52Rich Roll?

  audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Marana for graphics. Ally Rogers for portraits. DK for advertising relationships and theme music by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here in a couple days with another Roll On AMA. Until then, be well, get outside, try to experience a little bit of joy, and maybe think a little bit more profoundly and deeply about body inclusion, diversity, and...

• 1:50:25Rich Roll?

  Uncovering Our Own Unconscious Beliefs. Peace, Plants, Namaste.