How to change your personality

Who are you, really? Our friends at The Gray Area ask whether it's really possible to change. Guest: ⁠Olga Khazan⁠, author of Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change For show transcripts, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/unxtranscripts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ For more, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/unexplainable⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ And please email us! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ We read every email. Support Unexplainable (and get ad-free episodes) by becoming a Vox Member today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠vox.com/members⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:55Noam Hassenfeld?

  It's Noam Hessenfeld. I'm unexplainable. I remember my first day in college when I realized I could be anyone I wanted to be. Like, no one had any idea who I was. And I thought, what if I was suddenly this chill, easygoing, totally not neurotic guy? So I tried. And within a couple of days, I had fully forgotten the entire plan. I was the same person I'd always been. But that doesn't mean changing who you are, changing your personality, is impossible. Today on the show, a conversation that first aired on another Vox podcast, The Gray Area. It's

• 2:37Noam Hassenfeld?

  an interview that made me think differently about who I am and who it's possible to be. Here's The Gray Area with host John Ely.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Today's guest is Olga Hazan. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of the book, Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. The book is a joy to read, full of ideas, but also personal in the sense that Olga documents her year-long effort to change things she doesn't like about her own personality. Along the way, she does a nice job of weaving in the science and marking the limits of what we know and don't know. It's honest, curious, and reflective. And so, it turns out, is Olga. So I invited her on the show.

• 3:32Speaker 04

  Olga Hazan, welcome to the show.

• 3:34Speaker 05

  Thanks so much for having me.

• 3:36Speaker 04

  Let's start with the basics here. Because personality is one of those words that, or one of those concepts, that we all intuitively understand what it signifies, at least loosely. But it is pretty tricky to define. You've now written a book on it, so give me your neatest, clearest definition.

• 3:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. Personality is the consistent thoughts and behaviors that you have every day. And some researchers think that, in a In addition to just having those thoughts and feelings and behaviors, they also help you achieve your goals. So depending on what your goals are, your personality kind of helps you get there. An example of this would be the personality trait of agreeableness, which helps you make friends and social connections. So people who tend to be more agreeable also tend to value friendships and connections and achieve more of those.

• 4:34Speaker 04

  You use the word consistent there. To what extent is personality just a performance? And to what extent is it something much more concrete?

• 4:45Speaker 05

  So personality is, in some ways, a performance. Let's say you describe yourself as an introvert, but you have to give a big talk and it's very important to your career that this talk go well, right? You are probably going to perform to a certain extent extraversion. Or let's say you're going into a room full of investors and you have to raise money for your startup, but you're just a very introverted coder guy who just wants to code all day and not talk to anyone. You're going to perform extraversion in that situation too, because it's very important for you to get whatever is at the end of that performance, the money or the, you know, professional accolades or whatever comes with it. You know, it doesn't have to be financial.

• 5:30Speaker 05

  It could be, you know, going on a first date is kind of a performance as well. So we do all perform elements of these traits every single day. But what most researchers think is that there is sort of a tendency that we all have toward a certain pattern of behaviors and thoughts that are more or less consistent, especially if we don't try to change them in any meaningful way. But like you kind of get up and you have like these like little patterns that you fall into. And that's sort of like your quote unquote natural personality.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  So we have what people call the big five personality traits, neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, which you just mentioned, openness to experience, and conscientiousness. Are these categories generally accepted in the field of psychology? And how useful do you find them?

• 6:25Speaker 05

  They are generally accepted. This is, that's now like, if you read a personality study, it will be most likely based on the big five. So things like a neogram and Myers-Briggs are not generally accepted. That said, they are imperfect. There are some cultures that have traits that are very important in those cultures that the big five doesn't really pick up as much. Meanwhile, things like openness, it's sort of a catchall. Like, it doesn't really, it doesn't really map very cleanly onto, onto someone's personality as, as other people would observe it. So yeah, it is valid. It has weaknesses, but personality is so hard to measure and kind of scientifically get your head around

• 7:10Speaker 05

  that it's sort of the best that we have right now.

• 7:12Speaker 04

  Well, part of the inspiration for this project is that you wanted to change some things about yourself. So what did you want to change? And why don't you love yourself, Olga? Don't you know you're good enough and smart enough and people like you? Why do you want to change?

• 7:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I did want to change and I also love myself. The two are not mutually exclusive. Though I know that it can, it can feel that way, that like, if you admit that you want to change, that it can feel like you're saying that you don't love yourself. But I think that's where like, the idea of personality traits as tools to help you achieve your goals can be really helpful. Because we all have goals we want to achieve, even if we all like our lives and ourselves. And for me, what I realized is that things were going well. I had a pretty nice life. You know, nothing was seriously wrong. But my reactions to situations were not benefiting me. They were kind of...

• 8:16Speaker 05

  undermining me and making me not able to enjoy my life. So I I start the book out with this like actually great sounding now as a new parent of this great sounding day in Miami where honestly, all that happened is that I got a bad haircut, then immediately had to get professional photos taken, then got stuck in traffic and then had this like weird debacle with a grocery store shopping cart.

• 8:44Speaker 05

  And it honestly, just like because of my high neuroticism at the time, the accumulation of all of those like small things made me have like this epic meltdown when I got back to my hotel. And I realized that that kind of happened a lot in in various ways, like small things would happen that would make me kind of not able to appreciate the big picture or not able to just be happy with what I have or be grateful. And so that's really what I wanted to work on is sort of appreciating my life for what it was. And also just, you know, outside of neuroticism, I I really like I was feeling the COVID social isolation and I wanted to deepen my my social connections as well. So that's why I wanted to change.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  Would you say that you had or have a tendency to catastrophize? Because I do, and I I don't know if that's a function of neuroticism or something else, but I would say that is the one thing that I'm trying most aggressively to stop. Is that tendency part of neuroticism or is it a little more complicated than that?

• 9:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's definitely part of neuroticism. You know, neuroticism is sort of the trait that's it. So to kind of simplify it, it's associated with depression and anxiety. And basically, all those are are just like a feeling of threat, like you just constantly see threats everywhere. You, the reason you're catastrophizing is not because like you're silly or because you're not realistic, but because like you kind of can see the threats coming from every direction and you're like, how do I prevent those from happening? And that's what makes people who are high in neuroticism so miserable.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Well, I like the. I think it was Judd Brewer's argument that you talk about in the book, that anxiety is a habit loop where anxiety triggers the behavior of worry, which feels like it's a temporary relief, but really it just makes us more anxious in the long run. And this is something, this is something neurotic people do by default, right? I mean, it's just, it's just the first instinct.

• 10:51Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. I always thought anxiety and worry were the same thing. But worry is actually, it's a behavior. It's almost like a self-soothing behavior. And people who are very anxious think that if you just worry enough, you won't be anxious anymore. But instead, worry kind of sometimes can make you more anxious. Like, you're never going to get to the end of the worrying.

• 11:13Speaker 04

  Well, it's also about the discomfort with uncertainty, right? You talk about like, the neurotic person is the one who gets the, you know, have a second, do you have a second slack from your boss and freaks out, you know, I'm the type, if I get the, do you have a second out of nowhere from the boss, you know, I'm, I'm filing for food stamps, like, before lunch, you know what I mean? It's just, my mind just goes there. Okay, this is becoming too much about me already.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  No, it's okay. Yeah, I'm right there with you.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  But uncertainty is wrapped up with this, right? It's just, it's, it's, it's an uneasiness about what the future might hold and our ability to control or not control. And so you just, you're just anxious about, about the world. And, I mean, I'm sure there's evolutionary utility in that, but, but boy, past a certain point, it just becomes pathological, really.

• 12:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a huge part of it is like, is, you know, neuroticism is all intertwined with a feeling of wanting control, of really fearing uncertainty. You know, in the, in the modern world, it's all about learning how to live with uncertainty and accept that there is uncertainty in the world, you know, without letting it rule you, basically, this, this fear of uncertainty.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  What about agreeableness? Agreeableness sounds pretty agreeable. I mean, who, nobody wants to be called disagreeable, I don't think. But is agreeableness more complicated than that? I mean, how much agreeableness is too much? When do we need to be a little disagreeable?

• 12:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, agreeableness was one of the ones that I was working on. And it's basically like warmth and empathy toward others and also trust. And that element of agreeableness can be really good and it can deepen your your relationships and and give you more fulfilling friendships.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  Where some people say that like they're actually too agreeable and they want to pare back is when they feel like they're being people pleasers.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  And they feel like people kind of walk all over them or like they don't know how to say no. So part of agreeableness is like learning how to communicate boundaries, how to like make friends, but also not just by saying yes to everything that your friends ask of you and to still, you know, to still have your own boundaries and your own things that you're you're willing and not willing to do.

• 13:36Speaker 04

  So for your year-long personality transformation project, you did focus on on all five of these traits to varying degrees.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Which did you find was the hardest to tweak in any direction?

• 13:49Speaker 05

  So neuroticism was the hardest by far for me. It is like because the way to improve on neuroticism is meditation or like any kind of mindfulness practice, you know, it can be like yoga, not core power, like slow contemplative yoga.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  You know, it can be different different forms of mindfulness, but it's it's basically mindfulness. And I found that really challenging, like I I am not a natural meditator. I kind of have a loop of like ongoing concerns and worries and to do list when I'm not, you know, thinking about anything. You know, I I don't like it when people are too relaxed. I find that irritating.

• 14:35Speaker 04

  Why?

• 14:37Speaker 05

  Um, I just like, you know, I think it was, it was like a little bit hard for me to let go of my anxiety because on some level, I think, and I still sometimes kind of think this, I think that like anxiety

• 14:50Speaker 05

  is protective, at least for me, like it like forces me to do things and it helps me like it like is like the fire under me. And I think at times I was a little bit like, oh, sure, this is fine for like people who don't have a lot going on, but like I need my anxiety.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  How long did you try meditating? I mean, did you ultimately find it to be helpful? Did you, did you score less neurotic at the end of, of that practice?

• 15:17Speaker 05

  I think I like did meditation really, really seriously for about six months of this. And it did work in the sense that my neuroticism went down. But when I said that neuroticism is depression and anxiety, it was actually mostly my depression score that went down. So I became less depressed and my anxiety also went down, but it was still like quite high. It was not as high as it had been, but it didn't go away completely. But I think one reason why I became less depressed is that the class that I took, which was called MBSR, it was the meditation class that I took, had a lot of like Buddhist teachings that were part of it.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  So one of the things that my meditation teacher said was, um, things happen that we don't like. And for me, even though obviously things happen that we don't like, um, I realized that I was someone who, when things would go wrong, I would start to blame myself very intensely. And I would have this like very intense self blame that would be very hard to break out of. Even if it was something that was like clearly not my fault, it was, you know, like an act of God or like really awful traffic or like, you know, just, just something that, that had nothing to do with me. You know, I would start to be like, well, I should have left earlier. I should have blah, blah, blah. I should have predicted this. And I think just this reminder that things happen that we don't like, and that everyone has things that happen in their life

• 16:43Speaker 05

  that they would rather not happen and like, we all have to deal with that. I don't know. That was like weirdly very helpful to me.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  What is the scientifically best personality? And that, look, there is a part of my philosophical soul that shudders even at asking this question because I don't think science can make these kind of value judgments. But what I'm getting at is, you know, what does the research on happiness and personality tell us about what kinds of traits tend to be most correlated with happiness and well-being and a flourishing life?

• 17:16Speaker 05

  If your goal is happiness, which I am not saying that it has to be, there's more life than happiness. But if, as far as like happiness, well-being, longevity, all those goodies, it's basically being high, but not too high on all of the five traits. So being pretty extroverted, pretty agreeable, pretty open to experiences, quite, like very conscientious, and then very emotionally stable.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  You say in the book that extroverts are happier, in part because they interpret ambiguous stimuli more positively. How true is this? I mean, I'm sure there are some people out there who might find this kind of claim a little crude. So how clear is the evidence on this? How confident are we that extroverts in general are happier? I mean, they certainly look like they're having more fun, but that's anecdotal.

• 18:11Speaker 05

  So the evidence that extroverts are happier is pretty consistent. It's been replicated like quite a few times, including by researchers who weren't connected to the original studies and were like dubious, and they replicated it. And like the one researcher who did that, who I talked to, is himself an introvert. So it is pretty clear. The reasons why are less clear. So as you mentioned, one interpretation is that they, you know, they walk into a room full of people and they're all strangers and they don't immediately get a smile out of anyone. Like, it's just kind of like, kind of a straight-faced kind of, people are like, what are you doing here? I, an introvert, would be like, oh, my God, I'm not supposed to be here. Nobody likes me.

• 18:55Speaker 05

  Like, I, you know, I need to leave, like, you know, kind of just like flee, flee, flee.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  Self-talk, right? All that self-chatter.

• 19:02Speaker 05

  Right, right, right. An extrovert would be like, oh, awesome. Like, I just need to introduce myself around. And like, like, pretty soon, like, people will warm up to me. Like, they just, like, have a different interpretation of events that that helps them be happier. They are more active, like, they're just always out and doing things. Like, the people who are signed up for a million clubs and things are are extroverts. And they they have more social connections, not just friends. They also have more, like, weak ties, like, more acquaintances, just people they talk to throughout the day. And that, like, helps them feel happier.

• 19:54Speaker 00

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• 22:44Noam Hassenfeld?

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• 23:34Speaker 04

  Well, let's talk about change, the science of personality change. As you say in the book, there is this idea that at around 30, our personalities are, quote, "set like plaster." How true is that? I mean, how fixed is our personality?

• 23:55Speaker 05

  So that idea is sort of not considered totally true anymore. There's been quite a bit of research that shows that even when people don't try to change, they actually end up changing over the course of their lives. So one example is that people get less neurotic as they get older. They also tend to get less open to experiences. So if you ever notice that like, people get more conservative as they get older, that could be because openness to experiences goes down. In studies where they follow people over decades and decades, most of those people in those studies change on at least one personality trait from like, young adulthood to late adulthood,

• 24:39Speaker 05

  you know, their 60s. So it's true, like, you're not going to be like, unrecognizable, probably, but people do change over time, just kind of naturally. But what kind of the heart of my book is about is about changing your personality intentionally, which is sort of an even newer branch of research where they actually ask people if they would like to change their personalities, give them activities that are meant to help change their personalities, and then kind of measure their personalities after the fact. And so then, your personality would change even more.

• 25:13Speaker 04

  This part of it is so interesting to me. I mean, I've had psychologists on the show before, people like Paul Bloom, who I love. I think he's just fantastic. And I may be bastardizing his argument here, so if you're listening, Paul, you can write in and tell me. But, you know, he always says something to the effect, not necessarily that we, "Look, you are your brain, and that's it." But he does suggest that, you know, kind of like...

• 25:41Speaker 04

  By the time you're pretty young, you know, five, six, seven, eight, you know, so whatever, somewhere around there, your personality is kind of clear and it's kind of constant. Like you kind of, you kind of are what you are. You can tinker a little bit at the margins and, and the environment matters. Of course, it always matters, but that you, you really are sort of, you kind of are what you are, which isn't to say that you can't, you can't change anything, but you kind of are what you are. I mean, do you, do you think that is a little overstated?

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, I think, so there is a little bit of truth to that. So, so part of personality is inherited, right? Um, it's, it is genetic. So like, in some ways, you start to see someone's personality emerge in childhood and like, they're gonna be kind of like that, you know, probably for the rest of their lives, like, you know, barring anything major. But when you talk about tinkering at the margins, like, that is actually like quite important. Like, a lot of, um, therapy is basically just tinkering at the margins. Like, um, one of the books that I read, kind of in, in reporting out my book is 10% Happier.

• 26:49Speaker 05

  And that was Dan Harris meditating every day for like, an hour a day, just to become 10% happier. Um,

• 26:57Speaker 04

  That's a lot, though. 10% is a lot.

• 26:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, but that's, so like, it kind of is, it depends on how you look at it. Like, I was a really anxious kid and I'm an anxious adult. Um, you know, does that mean that I am exactly the same as I was when I was seven? I mean, you know, I'm recognizable, but I also think that I have, um, knowledge and tools now to like, control my anxiety a lot better, obviously, than I did when I was a kid or a teen, even a young adult. So, I don't know. I, I think that's, that's true, but also the margins are really important.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, there's a, a lot of difference and, yeah, little tweaks here and there do, do matter.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  So you know, thoughts and behaviors are these two elements of personality. I mean, how much power do we really have to alter our behavior by consciously, deliberately altering our thoughts? I mean, how clear is that relationship? Because if it is fairly clear, that that is, seems like one of the more reliable ways to go about, you know, making some of these tweaks.

• 28:03Speaker 05

  The traits where it's all behavioral are definitely the easiest to change. So conscientiousness is a good example of this. It's the one that's all about being organized and on time, eating healthy, you know, exercising. What they found is basically that you don't have to like really want it in order to become more conscientious. You just kind of have to do the stuff associated with conscientiousness. So like making the to do list, making the calendar reminders, leaving, you know, whatever, 10 minutes earlier, you know, decluttering your closets. Like if you do enough of that stuff, kind of regularly and consistently, that is conscientiousness.

• 28:46Speaker 05

  Like you will become more conscientious, you will get stuff done and like achieve your goals and have a higher level of conscientiousness. With some of the other ones like neuroticism or even agreeableness, like the reason why they're harder to change is that you have to really want it. And it is kind of more about your thought processes and like challenging your thoughts and, you know, thinking about situations differently. Like if I was to revisit that day in Florida now or in Miami, I wouldn't necessarily like do anything differently. I would just think about it differently. And I would be less anxious as a result of how I was thinking about it.

• 29:30Speaker 05

  But like, that is obviously harder than like making a to do list.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  Well, I did, I like that quote from Jerome Bruner in the book. You more likely act yourself into feeling than feel yourself. Into action, which kind of just feels like, you know, fake it till you make it.

• 29:48Speaker 05

  So Nate Hudson, who's like the main researcher that does the personality change research is, I think my quote from him was like, fake it till you make it is the reasonable way to do personality change. And that's because a lot of this is sort of like, the actions kind of make you think about things differently. So one example for me was with extroversion, where I really did not want to go to all the stuff that I signed up for. So I signed up for like improv class and I just really dreaded it every single time. I did not really want to go. But I kind of found that if I like made myself go, it would make me happier and I did

• 30:28Speaker 05

  have a good time and I enjoyed it. But it just like, my thought process around improv was I'm not good at it. I'm not going to have fun. I don't like this. I'm an introvert. So that was like sort of the clearest example of how sometimes you just kind of have to do something and the thoughts will follow from there.

• 30:48Speaker 04

  I want to talk more about improv. I've always wanted to do it. But again, I'm an introvert. I feel like I would just be paralyzed up there. But tell me about how long you did that and how transformative it was.

• 31:01Speaker 05

  Improv was probably one of the best things I did and also the scariest. I did that for about a year, kind of like, but it was like several sessions of improv that I guess altogether was about a year of a year's worth. And I was at times so afraid that I froze up and like didn't know what to say next. But something that's really cool about improv is that like, it's all about learning that other people can supply part of the interaction, right? Like, like you, you're not responsible for everything going right in improv. It's okay

• 31:40Speaker 05

  if things are just kind of chaotic and strange and not going perfectly. And I don't know, it's like a good lesson to have for social interaction because a lot of times when you're just out there dealing with people, it's going to be kind of crazy and you just kind of have to roll with it. And I don't know, to me, that was, that was like a good thing to see.

• 32:14Speaker 02

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• 33:38Noam Hassenfeld?

  Support for this show comes from Airbus. Every experiment we've ever done down here on Earth has involved gravity. So when the International Space Station launched in 1998, it opened up new frontiers for research in human biology and medicine, an opportunity to see how DNA strands, stem cells, and more might grow and evolve without the weight of the world on them. Now, a game-changing new space station, StarLab, is launching that will study agriculture, medicine, robotics, and more. And Airbus, who lead the ongoing design and engineering of the station, have designed it to be the next evolution for early research and real commercial production. On Starlab, it's possible to scale the amount of research and manufacturing.

• 34:21Noam Hassenfeld?

  The research humans are doing up in space can help us down here on Earth. And experiments in microgravity might fundamentally change our understanding of biology and medicine. Learn more about Starlab and how Airbus is making it happen at fly.airbus.com/theflightpath.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  Well, look, there's a, I think, a very important question you posed near the end, and I want to ask it here.

• 35:03Speaker 04

  How do you know when to keep trying to change? How do you know when you've tried enough? Isn't there some point at which you do more harm by resisting who you are? And would be better off just making peace with that?

• 35:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, this is like, you know, it's not going to be a hard and fast rule for everyone. But what I found is that when I was doing things that were like no longer enjoyable on any level and were not getting me any closer to like what I valued or like what I actually wanted is sort of when I would give up on them. So the big example of this is that I led a meetup group for a while based around foreign films, which is my hobby. And I, I just like didn't really enjoy it. I just don't like running meetings. I, I do moderate professionally for work, but like I just don't like to do it in my free time, I guess.

• 36:03Speaker 05

  I just, and it kind of like wasn't, you know, I didn't have that high afterward like I did after improv where I was like, yes, that was so fun. I kind of felt just like, oh, thank God, that's over. And to me, that was like a sign that it was maybe just time to wrap up and like hand it over to someone else. And I think that's okay. Like you don't, you know, trying something doesn't mean you're like stuck with it for life.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, and look, I, I ask this in part because I am sympathetic to the idea that...

• 36:34Speaker 04

  You know, being a little maladapted to a world that's actually pretty shitty in lots of ways, isn't the worst thing. And our society has a way of conspiring to make good and honest people feel weird and unlikable. And that's a society problem, not a you problem. But also, it is generally healthy to be well adjusted. So I don't want to gloss over that either.

• 36:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I mean, even things like neuroticism, you know, in small amounts or in certain situations, can have some benefits. Like, I mean, I never did away with my anxiety completely. It's now like at more manageable levels, but it's, it's not like gone. And, you know, in, in the last chapter, I, I interviewed Tracy Dennis Tawari, who is a psychologist. And she talks about how anxiety can have some positive elements. And when her son was born, he had like a heart condition. And she talks about how anxiety really helped her prioritize, like finding the right specialists,

• 37:39Speaker 05

  you know, getting him the right treatment, coming up with a good treatment plan, you know, all of the things that are involved in, in caring for a, a sick child. It would be hard to do that stuff if you were completely not anxious. Like if you just didn't care about anything. Like anxiety is in some ways a, a way of caring. So, you know, I think it's fine to like, find ways of, of living with your anxiety. But, but to not like, do away with it entirely.

• 38:07Speaker 04

  Well, what, what are the most concrete, practical interventions you discovered along the way that people might find useful in their own efforts to improve or align their values and actions?

• 38:23Speaker 05

  Sure, I will just toss some out that I, that I found worked really well for me. I would sign up for something. Don't just tell yourself you're gonna go out to drinks with your friends more. Like, sign up for a thing that like, requires you to be there. With improv, you couldn't miss more than two classes. So you had to go, even if you didn't feel like going.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Accountability, right? There's some accountability.

• 38:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, like, that's what I would do for extroversion, is I would sign up for a thing. Um, for conscientiousness, I would actually start by decluttering. Um, like if you feel like you're really disorganized, um, before trying to like quote unquote, get organized, um, I would just throw away as much stuff as possible. Um, that was like the loud and clear thing that all the professional organizers told me is that like, it's all about just like having less stuff in your life. And that can be like, you know, commitments too, and like sort of extraneous stuff that you're doing.

• 39:21Speaker 05

  And, uh, I honestly would take a meditation class for anyone who's, who's interested in, you know, reducing their neuroticism to whatever degree, even if not, like it's just like an interesting intellectual exercise. Um, and, um, you know, possibly an emotional exercise.

• 39:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I found the ACT acronym, the A C T acronym, pretty handy, actually. It's, you know, accept your negative feelings, commit to your values and take action. And you can say, you can say anything you like about that, but it is certainly the acceptance part seems really fundamental. I mean, one thing that comes across in a lot of the stories you tell in the book is that it doesn't matter who you are, what you do, where you are, uh, you're going to have negative feelings all the damn time. And we add so much unnecessary suffering to our lives when we resist those feelings. Anyway, I'll, I'll, I'll let you say anything you want about that.

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I thought, I found that so helpful. And that was really how a lot of the people who, um, I talked to who did change their personalities kind of muddled through, um, because those first few attempts at, you know, being extroverted or, or, you know, even being conscientious can feel really uncomfortable, like getting up at, you know, 5:00 AM to go for a run is uncomfortable.

• 40:49Speaker 05

  And so they really were just like, I'm going to feel uncomfortable, like I'm not going to like this at first, but it's important to me that I keep doing this. And so I'm going to take action and actually do it. And I, I don't know, I think that's like a good, a good little rule to live by for things that are, that matter to you.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  How important is it to really believe in your own agency? Is that a fundamental precondition of any kind of change? To believe that it's possible that you have the, the freedom? And the will to do that.

• 41:19Speaker 05

  The argument that I always get into with people is like, some people think that like, people never change, right? And kind of the extension of that is like, I will never change because people never change. And if that's truly what you think, you probably aren't going to try to change and you probably won't change. There does have to be like some fundamental openness to change in order to even like embark on something like this because it takes a lot of like energy and courage to do some of this stuff. And you can't follow through on it if you think that like, it's not going to work.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  All right. Once again, the book is called Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Olga Hazan, this was fun. Thank you.

• 42:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, thanks so much for having me. This was great.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know I did. Personality change is something I thought about a lot over the years, in part because I'm constantly trying to fix things about myself. This book and this conversation gave me some useful perspective on that, both that it's completely cool to want to improve things about yourself, but also it's important to make peace with who you are and not make yourself miserable fighting that. But as always, I want to know what you think. So drop us a line at [email protected] or leave us a message on our new voicemail line at 1-800-214-5749. And once you're

• 42:54Speaker 04

  finished with that, please go ahead, rate and review, and subscribe to the podcast. This episode was produced by Beth Morrissey, edited by Jorge Just, engineered by Christian Ialla, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, and Alex Overington wrote our theme music. New episodes of The Gray Area drop on Mondays. Listen and subscribe. The show is part of Vox. Support Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today. Go to vox.com/members to sign up. And if you decide to sign up because of this show, let us know.

• 43:36Speaker 06

  Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities, it fosters understanding, it expands horizons, it connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.

• 44:22Noam Hassenfeld?

  Support for this show comes from Airbus. When the International Space Station launched in 1998, it opened up new frontiers for research in human biology and medicine. Now, a game-changing new space station, StarLab, is launching that will study agriculture, medicine, robotics, and more. And Airbus, who lead the ongoing design and engineering of the station, have designed it to be the next evolution for early research and real commercial production. With its unique microgravity environment, they can make discoveries in space that help humans down here on Earth. Learn more about StarLab and how Airbus is making it happen at fly.airbus.com/theflightpath.