‘Stop This Mass Invasion’: Mayor Frey Blasts ICE Operation in Minneapolis

For the last few weeks, Minneapolis has been the epicenter of President Trump’s aggressive immigration crackdown, but tensions between residents and the administration exploded after an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent shot and killed Renee Good earlier this month. And after the killing of Alexander Pretti by federal agents on Saturday, it's safe to assume the situation will only get worse. Approximately 3,000 ICE and Border Patrol agents have deployed to the metro area. Roughly the same number of people have been arrested. And the Justice Department has issued grand jury subpoenas to a handful of local elected Democratic officials, including Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. Kara and Mayor Frey talk about why he thinks the DOJ’s subpoenas are about politics, not public safety; what his office is telling the local immigrant community; and why he doesn’t agree with calls to "abolish ICE." They also talk about Trump’s threats to use the Insurrection Act against protesters, and why he thinks everyone — even Republicans — should be outraged about what’s happening in Minneapolis right now. This interview was recorded on Thursday, January 22nd. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Before Renee Good was shot, the chief of police and I were both privately and publicly expressing concerns that somebody was going to get shot or killed. And by the way, it's going to happen again on top of that. Because this is the kind of conduct that we're seeing that inevitably will lead to people getting hurt.

• 0:32Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. For weeks now, Minneapolis has been ground zero for the Trump administration's sweeping and aggressive immigration crackdown. The city hit an inflection point when an ICE officer killed Renee Good, a 37-year-old U.S. citizen and mother who was protesting their presence in the city. And then, on Saturday, the 24th, federal agents killed another American citizen. Alexander Preddy was a 37-year-old ICU nurse who worked at the local Veterans Affairs Hospital. Videos show him trying to help a woman who had been shoved and pepper sprayed by agents. Preddy himself gets sprayed, wrestled to the ground by multiple agents, hit repeatedly

• 1:15Kara Swisher?

  in the face, and then shot in the back when he's on his knees. That is called murder, and there is no statute of limitations for prosecuting it. According to the Trump administration, you shouldn't believe your lying eyes and the multiple videos from many angles that were taken on the scene and widely proliferated on social media. Instead, they want you to believe their lies. According to Kristi Noem, the Secretary of Homeland Security, he was a domestic terrorist. According to Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bavino, Preddy was intent on massacre, and the agents who killed him are the victims. Preddy was legally carrying a gun, which was holstered before the agents took it from him and killed him.

• 2:00Kara Swisher?

  Some 3,000 ICE and Border Patrol officers have deployed to the Twin Cities. President Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act to deal with the constant protests that have sprung up in response, though he's backed off that threat a bit in the past week. And the Justice Department has also issued subpoenas to a handful of local Democratic lawmakers alleging they've impeded ICE's actions in the area. My guest today is one of those officials, Jacob Frey, who is the mayor of Minneapolis. He's in his third term running the city. We spoke to him on Thursday morning before the agents killed Preddy and before Vice President J.D. Vance appeared to walk back his claims that ICE agents are protected by absolute immunity. Frey is handling this situation well,

• 2:44Kara Swisher?

  even though he's being attacked by the administration. He has only 600 police officers in Minneapolis, and he's faced with a force of 3,000 heavily armed and masked federal agents. This is not a fair fight, and he doesn't want to fight. He wants them to leave, and that's what they should do. This is a critical moment for our country, and the people of Minneapolis have shown bravery and fortitude to what is a fascist threat from their own federal government. It has to stop. They have to leave, and we need to vote these bastards out. In any case, we should listen to on-the-ground reports from mayors of cities like this that are under siege.

• 3:28Kara Swisher?

  Our expert question comes from California Democratic Representative Robert Garcia. And before we get to my conversation with Mayor Frey, I'd like to read a statement released by Alex's family. "We are heartbroken but also very angry. Alex was a kind-hearted soul who cared deeply for his family and friends and also the American veterans whom he cared for as an ICU nurse at the Minneapolis VA Hospital. Alex wanted to make a difference in this world. Unfortunately, he will not be with us to see his impact. I do not throw around the term hero lightly. However, his last thought and act was to protect a woman. The sickening lies told about our son by the administration are reprehensible and disgusting. Alex is clearly not holding a gun

• 4:12Kara Swisher?

  when attacked by Trump's murdering and cowardly ICE thugs. He had his phone in his right hand, and his empty left hand is raised above his head while trying to protect the woman ICE just pushed down, all while being pepper sprayed. Please get the truth out about our son. He was a good man." Thank you. Condolences to the Preddy family. It's heinous and horrific what they're going through, as well as to the people of Minnesota who we stand with.

• 4:47Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

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• 6:48Kara Swisher?

  Mayor Fry, thanks for coming on, on, and so quickly. I really appreciate it.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 6:53Kara Swisher?

  So I'm gonna get right into, because I know you have limited time, and you've got other things to do, more important than talking to me, but let's start with the subpoenas. The Department of Justice sent grand jury subpoenas to you, Governor Tim Walz, and a few other local Democrats. The DOJ says it's looking into whether you and your office conspired to impede their immigration crackdown, but the subpoenas reportedly didn't cite a specific criminal statute. Talk about what you think they're doing here, besides trying to terrify you, which you don't seem terrified to me.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  The subpoenas were purely designed to intimidate. This is retaliation against local Democratic officials, largely for political reasons. This has got nothing to do with safety, it's got nothing to do with the law, it has nothing to do with immigration. This is targeting me and my office for performing one of the basic duties that we have under our city charter, which is to speak on behalf of the residents of our city. I mean, this is one of the core functions that I do on a daily basis. To be targeting me for what is definitively protected First Amendment speech should be deeply concerning for both Democrats and Republicans throughout the country, because, you know, there's other

• 8:05Speaker 00

  countries in the world where this kind of thing does happen, where political opponents are attacked, the equivalent of their Department of Justice will be weaponized against opponents. That shouldn't happen here in America, you know, and I never thought in a million years that this kind of thing would take place here.

• 8:22Kara Swisher?

  How are you looking at it, what happens, for people to understand what happens when you get a subpoena like this?

• 8:27Speaker 00

  Well, I'm gonna be, obviously, following the advice of our attorneys that are working hard on this case right now. I mean, one thing is very clear, that whatever the allegations contained within, which are fairly minimal, the way they're going about this is all wrong. This is not how America works. There is no reason for this kind of investigation. It's not even clear what the allegations are. allegations actually are.

• 8:56Kara Swisher?

  Are there any specifics about the allegations they're making besides you're noisy?

• 9:01Speaker 00

  I'm genuinely telling you the truth here. I can't even really tell.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  You know, look, I'm a mayor. We fill potholes. We try to keep the city safe. We put up more affordable housing whenever we can.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  And yeah, I care deeply about the people that I represent. I love them. And I'm gonna do everything I possibly can to help them. But this idea that we are somehow, I don't even know, the problem is, is I don't even know exactly what the allegations are. And so that's what's so confusing about this.

• 9:38Kara Swisher?

  The White House is also piling on and accusing you and the governor of riling up a group of protesters who disrupted church services in St. Paul earlier this month. The protesters said one of the pastors is an ICE official and the Justice Department announced those arrests today, Thursday, which was when we're speaking. Talk about those accusations, which are more specific. And do you have any sense if they're part of the investigation into you?

• 10:00Speaker 00

  I have no sense as to whether they're part of the investigation into me. In fact, I doubt it just based on the timing.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  But yes, we learned this morning that Nikima Levy Armstrong was arrested for being involved in that church protest. Look, I'll say, first of all, that you should not get arrested for something like that. I mean, we've got local politicians that are being investigated while they're refusing to investigate the ICE agent that shot Renee Good. We have local activists getting arrested while they don't seem to care at all about the unconstitutional conduct of both border control and these ICE agents. We're calling on Nikima Levy Armstrong to be immediately released. By the way, I disagree with her around this particular protest. I

• 10:51Speaker 00

  do not think you should protest like that in a sacred and privately private place. But it doesn't matter because you shouldn't be arrested for it. They are taking this to a level that is unconstitutional and I believe that is illegal in so many different perspectives.

• 11:09Kara Swisher?

  For listeners who don't know, Nikima Levy Armstrong is a local civil rights attorney. So what are the guardrails to stop that? Obviously, it's a lot of cosplay. It's a lot of, you know, power cosplay that's going on. But, you know, you think about what public officials can do besides make a speech if they want to do these things. You're seeing photos of gassing, you're seeing photos and video of, you know, 10 ICE agents in front of a house with huge enormous weaponry, you know, an armada of weaponry. So what are the guardrails that exist? Because it's not like you're going to use your own police to get in their way, for example.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Well, first is the guardrails that traditionally should exist in our country. And some of those have been bulldozed.

• 11:56Kara Swisher?

  Well, shame is gone, so.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Right, well, shame is a very powerful guardrail, especially in, you know, my Jewish tradition, the guilt, I guess, but it's, there's the guardrail of the judicial system, which is critically important, the federal court system, the local court system. We need to be able to rely in part on judges to abide by the law, not have a partisan outlook, not be approaching things from an ideological or political perspective, but what does the law say? And so we have a number of both preemptive and responsive lawsuits that we're undergoing

• 12:36Speaker 00

  right now, including one, yes, to stop this massive operation by ICE in our city, which I'll tell you, does in fact feel like an invasion. This lawsuit talks about the fact that we've only got like 600 police officers in our city, and there are 3,000 ICE agents and border control with potentially more on the way and another 1,500 militarized troops that are on standby to potentially be deployed to our city.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  I want your listeners to know that Minneapolis is a safe place. Crime has been down in virtually every category, in virtually every neighborhood. I want your listeners to know that we have extensively partnered with federal agencies to drive down shootings, drive down the narcotics trade, keep people safe, and with great success. And so, we do work with them when it's about safety, or when it's about reducing crime. This ain't that. This is about terrorizing people. This is about plucking five-year-olds off the street, using them as bait to try to get more of their families out of the door. This is heinous and does not belong in America.

• 13:50Kara Swisher?

  So, we're watching the President of the United States label his opponents, including you, as domestic terrorists in real time. Besides being maximally divisive, the administration also appears to be expanding the legal definition of what domestic terrorism is to include activities that the Constitution does clearly protect and could expand their investigative powers. Talk about, in the middle of it, what worries you the most at this moment? Obviously, they've tried in other states, but they've been most successful here of continuing the abuse and it not being stopped. And what do you think it portends for the next three years? At some points, he does get tired and moves on. At other points, you push back hard enough, he tends to go away.

• 14:32Kara Swisher?

  It happened just now about Greenland, or Iceland, or whatever he wants to call it. Talk a little bit about that. What worries you most at this moment and over the next couple of years?

• 14:43Speaker 00

  My first and primary responsibility is to the safety of our residents. And so, for over a month before Renee Good was shot, the chief of police and I were both privately and publicly expressing concerns that somebody was going to get shot or killed, that either a civilian, a resident, a police officer, or an ICE agent was going to get shot and killed. And tragically, that happened. And then it happened again. And by the way, it's going to happen again on top of that. Because this is the kind of conduct that we're seeing that inevitably will lead to people getting hurt.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  It's deeply concerning. But it's not just Minneapolis that should be concerned right now. I have a deep concern for the endurance of our republic when the constitutional norms and these mainstays of good governing principles are thrown in the trash can. We have had a long history of Minneapolis, going back way before I even lived in the city, of working together with the federal government. When the 35W Bridge collapsed, it was a Bush administration that came to Minneapolis. They weren't all that popular, but they did the right thing.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  The politics stopped at the water's edge. You had mayors and presidents and governors, everybody, regardless of partisan stripe, working together for the sake of keeping people safe and getting the bridge rebuilt. Tragically, we don't have that right now.

• 16:26Kara Swisher?

  Just so people are aware, on the personal level, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, who enjoys meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell, went so far as to accuse you and Governor Walz of terrorism for encouraging violence against law enforcement.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Never once have I encouraged violence, never once. I would ask them, very plainly, "Give me one instance when I have ever encouraged violence against law enforcement or anybody else." I have encouraged First Amendment speech. I have encouraged peaceful protest. And we have been very clear, in Minneapolis, we can't take the bait. I believe that this Trump administration is looking for any excuse to further deploy militarized force. We cannot take the bait. We're not going to counter Donald Trump's chaos with our own brand of chaos. And in fact, when people have gone beyond peaceful protests here in Minneapolis, they've been arrested. So this notion that we've encouraged violence is ridiculous.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  I'll tell you, we have seen a ton of violence, however, from ICE. We have seen some of the most gruesome tactics that I could imagine that are playing out on and around our streets.

• 17:37Kara Swisher?

  Well, let's talk about that. You said there are 3,000 ICE and Border Patrol agents on the ground in the Twin Cities. Comparison, as you said, the Minneapolis Police Department has around 600 officers. Neighboring St. Paul has about the same, and they're near each other for people who don't know Minneapolis. Paint a picture on the ground of what the federal presence looks like, and that is before the possibly 1,500 federal troops, which seems insane, would enter the picture.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I think it is important to explain to people what's going on here because there are multiple truths that are taking place at the same time. The first truth, which I will reiterate, is that Minneapolis is a safe place. Crime has been dramatically down, and if the federal government wants to restore additional order and prevent chaos from happening, there's a very easy and straightforward antidote, which is to leave, stop this mass invasion of our city, and we'll be just fine. In fact, a huge percentage of the total shootings that have happened thus far this year in Minneapolis have been ICE. As of last week, I think it was something like 50% of the shootings that took place were by ICE agents. And so, we are a safe city.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Allows to be safer. Now, there are a number of different truths here. So, oftentimes, I'll give the example of the other morning, I woke up, walked out of my apartment with my five-year-old, down to the street, to the coffee shop, and picked up a raspberry white chocolate skull. I mean, if there's anything that is emblematic of not a lot of bad things or chaos happening on the streets, it's a skull. And that is true. And that is a vast majority of the city at any given time.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  But then the Latino people in the back of the house came out and were crying.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  And they were telling me about their fears, their concerns, and their families, and how deeply hurt they are, but also how grateful, I guess, proud they are that they've got a whole city that they are part of, that they are residents of, in most cases, citizens of, that is standing up for them. And so you have a city that is incredibly safe, and you also have a city that has this mass invasion of thousands of ICE agents that are creating far more chaos.

• 20:04Kara Swisher?

  And I would note masked ICE agents, masked, so you can't see them.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  Masked, and sometimes not even badged.

• 20:10Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  And that's, this is really problematic, especially in Minnesota, where just a number of months ago, we had Melissa Hortman, Speaker of the House, get assassinated by a person pretending to be a police officer without a badge. And so when you've got these ICE agents running around without a clear description of who they actually are.

• 20:33Kara Swisher?

  So you don't know who's who.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  You don't know who's who. It would be very easy for somebody to just put on a bulletproof-looking vest, some SWAT gear, a black outfit, and pretend that they are ICE, and they're not.

• 20:48Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 20:58Kara Swisher?

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• 21:41Kara Swisher?

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• 22:32Kara Swisher?

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• 23:38Kara Swisher?

  So the Trump administration has linked their actions to this massive fraud scandal that has rocked the state government and the local Somali community, but most of the people who've been charged are US citizens. Some were born here, some are naturalized. So when you say the people who see this fraud, hundreds of millions of dollars, and see that it's tied to a specific community and think the federal government has a role to play here because President Trump ran and won on promising mass deportation is one of the most popular issues, talk a little bit about that. It's the excuse presumably, from your perspective.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Well, let's again talk in a way so that everybody's not talking by each other, because I feel like that often happens in discourse.

• 24:20Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 24:21Speaker 00

  So the fraud is real. The fraud that took place here is very real. And when you commit fraud, you get investigated, you get charged, you get prosecuted, you get arrested, and you go to jail. As an individual, you go to jail as an individual. The whole community, however, that you are part of and the whole city that you live in is not held responsible. The whole state you live in is not held responsible. That's the way things work in Minnesota, that's the way things work in the United States of America, because everybody has due process and habeas corpus rights.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  And what we saw is people villainizing our whole Somali community. And then what I speculate took place is that you had somebody from pretty high up in the Trump administration say, "All right, we got them. Go to Minneapolis and arrest and deport a whole bunch of Somalis."

• 25:28Speaker 00

  And nobody engaged in the proper pushback to that direction so that they get here only to realize that the Somalis that they would deport, they can't because they're American citizens. They got here on a plane, on Delta, they're here legally. And then, of course, they're just looking for some ability to claim victory off of this massive operation that they got going. And they start diverting attentions elsewhere and then I feel like the floor fell out from under them.

• 26:03Kara Swisher?

  So no one to really arrest. I mean, Trump, in fact, did call Somalis garbage and said he didn't want them in the country at all, even though they are here legally.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Well, right, and if he wants to go after fraudsters, you know, look, this is a state issue.

• 26:17Kara Swisher?

  It is a state issue.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  It's not a city issue, it's a state issue, that's where the funds came from. But if you want to go after fraudsters, I think you would get pretty good reception for us working with you. I know you would. We would work to catch fraudsters. If you want to go after murderers, or rapists, or all of these other horrible things that he talks about, yeah, we're anti-murder and anti-rape in Minneapolis, that'll be about the simplest position, the easiest position that I take this year. But that's not what they're doing.

• 26:50Kara Swisher?

  Now, an appeals court just lifted restrictions on how ICE agents can interact with protesters, which is probably disappointing to you. An ICE memo says agents can enter the homes of people subject to deportation without warrant signed by a judge. An administrative order is enough, apparently, according to whistleblower group. It's not clear how widely shared the memo was. ICE always reportedly detained some children, including a five-year-old boy, in order, as you said, bait. Vice President Vance is in the city today, later today, I assume you're not meeting with him, to buck them up. What advice are you giving Minnesota residents, given these new developments?

• 27:26Speaker 00

  I have not had a chance yet to read the order that came out from the Eighth Circuit, but the guidance that we are giving and continue to provide to people is that if someone's trying to get in your home, you don't need to let them unless they have a judicial warrant that is signed by a judge. The administrative warrants are not worth the paper that they're printed on. It's got to be a judicial warrant signed by a judge.

• 27:52Kara Swisher?

  And they may be coming in anyway because they're being told that they can't?

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Well, I mean Vance is talking about this concept of absolute immunity. You do not have absolute entire immunity to do anything, no matter who you are in this country. That is not the rule of law. I mean Vance went to, I think, Yale Law School. I went to Villanova, but I think any law school out there will tell you that you don't just get absolute immunity. You get, yes, immunity in some instances while you're operating within the scope of what your job is supposed to be.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  If ICE agents are doing basic ICE things, no, you can't get criminalized for that. But what we are seeing is ICE go outside of what we believe to be constitutional. And there is a point where, no, you just can't do that anymore.

• 28:54Kara Swisher?

  What would you say to Vance if you were to meet him? Are you meeting him?

• 28:58Speaker 00

  We are not, no. I was not invited to any meeting as of right now.

• 29:03Kara Swisher?

  Did you offer to meet with him?

• 29:05Speaker 00

  Look, if people are willing to work in good faith with me, I am willing to work in good faith with them. If the goal is, and this is what I would tell him, if you want to partner with us in further driving down crime, if you want to partner in getting murderers or rapists, no matter where they are from, we would do that. But we're not going to work together on ripping families apart. We're not gonna work together to separate beloved members of our community from their children. That's not what Minneapolis is about.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  And, you know, I also have an obligation as mayor in terms of safety of this city.

• 29:52Kara Swisher?

  Of the rest of the citizens.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  The whole city, the citizens of this city. We have got, as I mentioned, a limited number of police officers, about 600 cops. I want them spending time preventing homicides and shootings and preventing carjackings and arresting perpetrators of violent crime. That's what I want them doing. You know what I don't want them doing? I don't want them spending a single second hunting down a father who just dropped his kids off at daycare, who's about to go work a 12-hour shift, who happens to be from Ecuador. That guy makes our city a better place. He's not a threat. He's certainly not a danger. I'm proud to have that dad in Minneapolis.

• 30:28Kara Swisher?

  Okay, every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from California Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia, ranking member of the House Oversight Committee, who's getting ready to do a lot of things if the Democrats win the election. Let's listen.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  Hey, Mayor Fry, it's Robert Garcia. I just got back from a really long day in DC, actually discussing ICE in Minnesota all day, and thank you for your leadership. I wanted to ask you, in this moment, hard moment where we're all in the fight, how do you talk to your immigrant community? What message do you share to immigrants right now that are feeling obviously so scared and hopeless, not just in your city, but across the country? Good to see you. Keep up the good work.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Oh, well, Congressman, thank you. And thank you for the extraordinary work that you are doing at Capitol Hill. We need a whole team right now that's operating, and clearly you're a critical part of it. The message to our immigrant community is that we love them.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  They're our family. They are part of the core of who we are as a people. They've started businesses. They have provided services. They make our city a better place and we are proud to have them here. The further message is that you've got an entire city enterprise of 4,000 people, people that work for the city of Minneapolis, that cares about them, wants to provide services for them, and by the way, will not coordinate with any federal agency around immigration enforcement actions. And that goes to our police officers and everybody else. We will not work with any federal agency, ICE or beyond, on immigration enforcement work.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  So they should feel comfortable calling 911 because when you do so, you're going to get somebody on the other line that doesn't care what your documentation status is, but cares about you as a person, that cares about your safety, and they want to help. And so that's a clear message that has been delivered to them. Do I control ICE or the federal government? I do not. If I did have authority, then we would have pushed out this operation a long time ago because it is not helpful for the safety of our city. And what I'll also say is that I have been inspired by the tens of thousands of people in Minneapolis that have not just been peacefully protesting,

• 32:51Speaker 00

  but are escorting their neighbors to get groceries, that are providing food to those that are scared to leave the home, that are making sure that people can get into work and by the way, are patroning some of these small local businesses that are hit hardest because they neither have the workers nor the clientele that feels confident in leaving the home. And so this is the kind of stuff that's happening in our city right now. And like I said, there are multiple truths. There are multiple truths. For those, by the way, that are considering whether they should come to Minneapolis or not. Come to Minneapolis. You know, if you're a comedian, or a musician, or you're part of some big theater performance, come to Minneapolis.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  If you want, speak out. Use your First Amendment rights while you're here. And also, love on our city. Support our neighbors. Support Latino and Somali-owned businesses, because they certainly need the help right now.

• 33:47Kara Swisher?

  I would imagine tourism is down rather significantly, although it is winter, so it's not like it's the one...

• 33:53Speaker 00

  I mean, again, this goes to the multiple truths that are taking place. We've got all sorts of ICE actions, and at the convention center right now is the boat show.

• 34:00Kara Swisher?

  Oh.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  You know, I mean, talk about the juxtaposition there.

• 34:04Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. So you say you're proud to have a dad from Ecuador in Minneapolis, but going back to my earlier point, President Trump ran and won on deportation. How will Democrats win elections if the majority of the country voted to deport undocumented immigrants at the same time? Polls are showing they do not like how they're doing this, such as this dad from Ecuador, who's just a worker, not a criminal. How do you win elections with a message of, "We're working on criminals, but not regular people"?

• 34:37Speaker 00

  This question is probably somewhat out of my pay grade, because I'm a mayor, and this gets more into kind of the national political analytics. That being said, personally, here's what I think. I think that people understand the importance of securing the border. I think that people understand that we do have to get violent criminals off our streets, no matter where they are from. Whether they're from Northern Virginia, like me, from Chicago, from Minneapolis, from Ecuador, or Germany, whatever. If you're violent, you're a criminal, you have broken the law, of course, there are consequences. And I also think that people don't want to be ripping families

• 35:20Speaker 00

  out of a city and of a country that have deep roots in them. You know, families that have been here for 15, 20 years, that go to school here, that pay taxes here, that contribute to the economy and have open businesses. I feel like there should be a clear path to citizenship.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  And I think that's what most of America also believes. So securing of the border and providing a path to citizenship, I think most of America would support. Again, look, I'm not running for president here. And so I'm not as well versed, maybe, as some on the topic, but I think this is just some common sense ideas that people can get behind.

• 36:02Kara Swisher?

  So one of the things that you are getting criticisms from the left is that you're not doing enough to protect residents from these federal agents. Democratic Socialist City Councilman Robin Wonsley is among them. Talk about your message to city residents who want to see your office do more right now. Is there really anything you can do, because save getting in the way of these agents, which seems to attract violence? What are your tools at this point? And how do you meet this criticism?

• 36:29Speaker 00

  I think, yeah, you, of course, we've heard criticisms from all fronts on these topics. And I think you hit the nail on the head, which is, look, we've got 600 police officers, and those officers are devoted to their day to day work in the city of keeping people safe and responding to 911 calls. When something goes down, they're probably not going to be on the scene. And so if they're not on the scene, they don't witness what takes place. It's much harder to intervene. However, our officers will intervene. They will intervene when somebody is getting hurt. They will intervene to try to keep people safe wherever they can.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  And obviously, there are legal and constitutional limitations on their ability to do so. And obviously, there are just limitations based in reality.

• 37:23Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  And again, we've got 600 police officers. And so, you know, our officers, and I applaud them, are working tirelessly. Days off have been canceled. People are seeing the juxtaposition between the way that our police officers operate and the way these ICE agents operate. You know, there hasn't always been a ton of trust in Minneapolis between police and the community.

• 37:47Kara Swisher?

  Correct, yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  But more and more, over the years, you have seen people that have been highly critical of police, especially recently, say, hey, you know what? They've been doing a good job at doing what they can to help.

• 37:57Kara Swisher?

  So one of the things that could happen, the FBI initially opened a civil rights investigation into the officer who killed Renee Good, but Deputy AG Blanch again said it won't be an investigation of the killing. What's stopping the state or even the city from independently? Doing an investigation because it can be done even though it's very difficult.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  I believe that the investigation should be conducted by the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. This is a state-based agency that has a long history and is quite experienced in investigating officer-involved incidents.

• 38:33Kara Swisher?

  What is stopping them?

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Well, I don't want to speak for them, but my understanding is they want to make sure that they have all the necessary evidence that allows them to conduct a full and fair investigation. Originally, this was supposed to be a joint investigation run by both the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension at the state level and then the FBI at the federal level. Well, then the FBI blocked out the BCA from critical evidence that would allow them to draw conclusions and make inferences.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  And the BCA didn't want to be part of it if they were being boxed out at the same time. And so I think that the BCA should be running an independent investigation. They have run cases before that have led both to a charge of an officer and a lack thereof.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  By the way, this is not like some radical group. This is a group full of attorneys and largely police officers. And they have deep experience doing this work and they are independent. They don't report to me. They don't report to the President of the United States.

• 39:37Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

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• 42:12Kara Swisher?

  So amid this, more Democrats are saying that ICE should be abolished. We saw something similar to the slogan abolish police after George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis. You didn't support the idea of abolishing police and you don't support abolishing ICE. So what do you say to fellow Democrats who believe ICE is beyond reform, especially since Trump has been threatening to use the Insurrection Act to deploy US military in Minneapolis? He said he's not necessary right now, but as you said, the Pentagon has 1,500 active-duty soldiers for possible deployment. We're recording this Thursday morning, so far that hasn't happened. So talk about this juxtaposition that abolishing ICE, the calls to do that, and then this threat of a much bigger federal presence.

• 42:56Speaker 00

  Well, back in 2020, there was a group of about 2,000 people that came to my home as a protest just days after George Floyd was murdered. And they called on me to commit to defunding and getting rid of the police. And I said no. And I was publicly shamed and spat on, they threw stuff at me, and I kind of thought that in that moment, maybe my political career was over. But I slept just fine that night because I was certain that I had done the right thing. Yes, we need deep reform. Yes, we need a full culture shift, which we are pushing for right now. But no, defunding the police did not make sense. Now, switch over to the concept of abolish ICE.

• 43:38Speaker 00

  I think we're talking by each other, completely talking by each other, and I would warn against just jumping on a slogan, let's talk about what we're trying to accomplish here. So I have heard a lot of people very poignantly say, we need to have ICE out of the Department of Homeland Security and in a different department, like for instance, the Department of Justice, given the work that they're actually charged with doing. And I think that there's a lot of merit to that idea. I have heard, and I agree, that we need a full-on, bottom-to-top transformation on how ICE operates because what is happening is ludicrous. I would also agree with that.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  I have heard people say that we need to get these ICE agents that have engaged in horribly illegal and unconstitutional conduct out of ICE and out of the government so that they're not able to harm people. I would full-heartedly agree with that.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  But here's where they're gonna get us. Uh, i- i- i- if we're signing on to this pledge without a plan. Um, I do think you need some form of customs enforcement and immigration enforcement in the country. The quickest way to erode trust in government is to pass laws that you don't plan on enforcing at all. Uh, and so there needs to be some mechanism of enforcement here.

• 45:07Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  If you wanna call it, you know, customs and immigration enforcement, you know, CIE instead of ICE, you wanna move it over to a different department, you wanna get out all the bad guys, you wanna do a top-down transformation, by all means. But just to get rid of all enforcement, no, I don't think that's smart.

• 45:26Kara Swisher?

  Right. If these troops do come in, what are you gonna do? And what do non-Minnesota citizens do to help you, if anything?

• 45:35Speaker 00

  First, I call on everybody throughout this country to have our back.

• 45:41Kara Swisher?

  How so?

• 45:43Speaker 00

  We are a city from the north. We are bold, we are tough, and we are resilient. And you see the strength and the conviction and the courage of the people of this city stand up for one another. However, this could be you next. Some political attack, deployment of troops, uh, some retaliation for being a political opponent, this could happen in another city. And it could impact your day-to-day life directly like it's presently impacting ours. That's why you gotta stop this from the very jump. It's why you gotta stop it here in Minneapolis, because that can't take place. Um, look, we're gonna use every avenue that we've got available to us to keep our residents

• 46:28Speaker 00

  safe, to, of course, prevent some further deployment, which is completely unneeded and would be absolutely counterproductive for the stated reasons of safety.

• 46:39Kara Swisher?

  And what can citizens, uh, non-citizens of Minneapolis or Minnesota do?

• 46:45Speaker 00

  Well, um, so non-citizens.

• 46:47Kara Swisher?

  Not non-citizens, I'm saying people aren't from Minnesota.

• 46:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

• 46:51Kara Swisher?

  Sorry.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Well, people, obviously, and this is kind of the oldest saying in the book, you contact your congressman, of course.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Contact the federal administration. If you run a business or are part of a group of, I don't know, restaurants or dental offices or insurance companies, your business is going to be impacted also. Make sure that the federal administration knows how it's impacted and that this kind of invasion has got to stop. If you care about your tax dollars, there is a crazy amount of money that is being needlessly spent in Minneapolis that is counterproductive. Let's make sure we return your tax dollars to you. If you care about freedom and liberty, I know these are concepts that are dear to Republicans and rightfully so. If you care about those concepts, there are freedoms and there are liberties

• 47:48Speaker 00

  that are going to be violated here and are being violated right here in our state. Let's not have that happen in yours. So we're going to be using every channel we've got, including the justice system. We're going to be suing in court. We're going to be making sure that we're standing up for who we are, not just as many Apolines, but as Americans.

• 48:09Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, federal troops should never be on the streets of cities. Unless it's dire, absolutely. Anyway, I love Minneapolis, it's one of my favorite places. I go there all the time. I've spoken there many, many times. It's a wonderful city and

• 48:21Speaker 00

  It is.

• 48:22Kara Swisher?

  probably the most safe city I've been in, honestly. It's kind of laughable.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  It's so safe.

• 48:26Kara Swisher?

  It's so, it's too safe, honestly.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  It's too safe, it's so safe. I mean, for those of you that don't know, we're rated as the happiest city in the whole country. And there is a good reason for that. You've got this kind of commonality and love that you feel as soon as you get here. It could be negative 10 degrees, but you still feel the warmth.

• 48:46Kara Swisher?

  I really appreciate it. Minneapolis is a wonderful place. What's happening to you is heinous, I agree. And on your behalf, fuck them for doing it. Anyway, Mayor Jacob Fry, thank you so much for your time.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 49:04Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

• 49:37Speaker 03

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