361: My Sit Down with Nancy Grace: Kohberger Posed Victims Bodies? Monique Tepe Shot MULTIPLE Times?!

Nancy Grace joins Annie to discuss Bryan Kohberger, the murders of Spencer and Monique Tepe, and more.. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources CNN | Superior Court of the State of Washington | The New York Times | WOSU Public Media ••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

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• 1:32Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serial Sleet.

• 1:55Annie Elise?

  Hello and welcome back to Serial Sleet. Today, I am joined by somebody you all know, former prosecutor, never afraid to tell it like it is, host of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nancy Grace, welcome to the show.

• 2:10Speaker 04

  Thank you for inviting me. It's a real honor.

• 2:13Annie Elise?

  Well, thank you so much for joining. I actually have so many questions about cases that you have covered in the past in your career, that you are currently ongoing investigating and covering. So I want to just jump right in. And I actually want to start with the news in Idaho and Brian Kohberger, because as we all know, Brian Kohberger pleaded guilty back in July of 2025 to the brutal slaying of the four college students. And we all knew that it was extremely horrifying what he did and the manner of deaths and everything that happened. However, a newly unsealed document was released that outlines just how barbaric it truly was. It indicates that Brian Kohberger stabbed these victims

• 2:57Annie Elise?

  over 150 times. And I have a very specific question I want to ask you. But before I get into that, I just want to outline how they broke it down. It was, starting with Kaylee Gonzalez, she was stabbed 38 times, 24 of which were to her face, scalp, and neck. Maddie Mogan, 28 times, 13 of which were to her face, scalp, and neck. Xana Carnotl, 67 times, 23 of which were to her face, scalp, and neck. And Ethan Chapin, 17 times, four of which were to his face, scalp, and neck. Now, we know that Xana fought back. We heard that early on, based on her injuries, and just how horrible that crime

• 3:40Annie Elise?

  scene looked. And that also explains why her injuries were nearly double, if not triple, the other victims. But my question for you is, why did Brian focus so many of the stabbings on their face, scalp, and neck area?

• 3:54Speaker 04

  Annie, again, thank you for inviting me. That is a question the prosecution does not have to answer at trial, the question, why? That goes to motive. The state is never required to prove motive. Because it asks the prosecutor to go into the mind of literally an evil killer. A lot of people don't use the word evil, or the devil, or Satan. But I think that all of that is personified in Brian Kohberger.

• 4:33Speaker 04

  Why did he do what he did? We'll never know. But I can tell you this, Annie. I have seen multiple cases where the victim is attacked specifically in the face. Often, we see women attacked in the genitals, the breast, the crotch area, the vaginal area, which indicates a sex motivation, even if the victim isn't sex assaulted. In a lot of killings related to hatred of homosexuals, of gay people, you will see their genitals mutilated,

• 5:15Speaker 04

  which gives you a very strong indicator of motive. They are driven by hatred of either misogyny or hatred because of someone because they're gay. But again, the state doesn't have to prove that. This is what my takeaway is. He was destroying the beauty of these victims. Kiele Goncalves was stabbed so many times in the face that her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth. Her teeth were around her. And that's what Mr. and Mrs. Goncalves, Steve and Christie, have to think about. I don't know how they think about anything else.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  And then when you look at Xana's 67 stab wounds, because she dared to fight back. And in the midst of this, Annie, you have the roommate hearing Kohberger say, "I'm here to help you", and then stabbing the victim multiple times in the face, destroying their beauty, wiping out their identity.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  It's heinous, it's evil, and to me, it goes to motivation, which would be one of the first things I argued to, I would argue to the jury. If we had had that opportunity and were not given a weak prosecutor that didn't have the spine to take the case to trial.

• 6:50Annie Elise?

  You bring up an interesting point regarding the hatred and that being a potential motivation and destroying their beauty. And early on, a lot of people, I think, assumed that Kaylee was Brian's target and that he went there specifically for her, not only because of the level of injuries, but also because of the blunt force trauma and the facial injuries that caused her facial disfigurement. But now that we have seen the autopsy results and the way that this attack was so brutal on all of the victims, do you think that with the evidence that's been made public, she was the target? Do you think there was a target, a specific target, or he just wanted to go on a rampage?

• 7:32Speaker 04

  I don't know if rampage, and I've used it myself, would be the right description. Because a rampage seems to indicate a blind, wild criminal spree.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  This was not blind, this was pre-planned. He had stalked these victims, not necessarily in the traditional sense of the word, but he had driven by their home over and over and over. I believe he stalked them online. I believe that he went into their places of work, maybe even onto their campus, to spy on them. As it turns out, when he first moved to Pullman, he went to a pool party. And at that pool party, he took a lot of pictures of women and spoke to them at the pool party. Some of those, at least one of those women, were online friends with the victims.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  I don't know if that's how he first became aware of them, but likely. And the stalking began.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  So this was not a wild, blind rampage. This was very well thought out.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Who was the victim? You can't go by the number of wounds alone because you see Xana was 67 wounds. That doesn't mean she was the original victim. That means most likely that she fought back and sustained more injuries. Who was the original victim? We don't know, but I also know that Kohberger had shown an interest, and this is from his digital footprint, in sex assaulting women that were passed out, were comatose, were asleep, or in this case, asleep. And he came on to something very, very different. They were awake.

• 9:32Speaker 04

  And he had to fight tooth and nail to murder them. I don't know what his original plan was, nor do I care. He murdered them. And I don't think one day goes by that some ding dong online doesn't say, "Why do you insist Kohberger's guilty? He was framed, or he had a co-defendant, or an accomplice. He pled guilty, under oath, in a court of law. He did it."

• 10:03Annie Elise?

  That infuriates me as well. I think that that group has now dubbed themselves the Pro-Burgers, and they advocate for his innocence that...

• 10:10Speaker 04

  Don't care. Don't care what they call themselves.

• 10:14Annie Elise?

  I'm with you. I'm with you.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Sing it to somebody that cares.

• 10:19Annie Elise?

  Now, speaking of him not perhaps expecting what he saw when he went into the home and expecting people to be awake and being caught off guard, a forensic scientist from Brian's defense team has said that Kaylee and Maddie were posed in bed together after being killed. Specifically, that Kaylee was moved from her head being on the pillow to on top of Maddie, and then the comforter was pulled over them. I thought it was really interesting that he used the word posed because I think that it could perhaps be that, or that Brian was trying to conceal the crime that he had committed so that when people walked into the room, perhaps it would be a little bit, you know, delayed in seeing what had really transpired.

• 11:03Annie Elise?

  But what is your opinion in hearing that?

• 11:07Speaker 04

  Posed is a term of art in the criminal world. It staged is a term of art in the criminal world, which means that the scene was tampered with. That's really all that means. But I agree with your analysis that they were posed. Why put one female victim on top of the other? That's posing. That's in the traditional sense. Anytime you tamper with a scene, whether you turn off the lights, whether you put a blanket over the victim's face, which I've seen in many, many murder cases. I had one case that I looked at

• 11:52Speaker 04

  where a mom was murdered in her home. She was found on her bed, completely naked, but the killer had taken a wicker bathroom basket, um, trash can and put it over her head. What a demeaning way for your body to be found by homicide detectives. I've seen many cases where a sweater or a blanket was put over the victim's face or over their body. I worked on a case where a victim was covered in leaves. In the Delphi double murders of Abby and Libby, for instance, the girls were covered with limbs,

• 12:36Speaker 04

  tree limbs and twigs and brush. Um, you ever seen a dog circle three or four times before it sits down? Have you ever seen that, Annie?

• 12:47Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm, yes, I have.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Why? Why? I don't know why. But I know dogs have been doing it since thousands of years before we came to the world.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  It's instinctive. Did Kohberger intend to cover up their faces? Don't know, don't care. But he did. I think it's something instinctive. That, you know, there's a lot of theories. The killer doesn't want the victims looking at them. They don't want to see their faces after, in this case, disfiguring them. They are repulsed by the victims. They are repulsed by the victims as they look in death. It could be any number of things. But what does it mean to me? All I care is about its probative value. What can I prove?

• 13:43Speaker 04

  I learned in court. There's, there's, if you could see the stacks of paper on my desk right now. And I'm working on, have been working on the Tepe story. Just stacks and stacks of facts that I've amassed. All of them are not probative. They can't prove something in court for me. If I can't use it to prove something, it doesn't exist. I need every scrap, every scintilla, every shred of evidence to prove something. This proves something. This proves to me that the murder was not random. This wasn't somebody that just broke in to burglarize or rape and went, oh, ah, ah,

• 14:26Speaker 04

  and then killed the victims and ran. No. This killer took time to stage the scene. Whether it was just turning off the lights, or moving the body, or putting a blanket over the face, it doesn't matter. That's staging. That means typically not random. If it was a random burglar that lost it and killed the victims, they would run. They wouldn't take time to stage the scene. Not random, which is probative. It proves to me it was someone that picked out these victims to kill. It's probative.

• 15:03Annie Elise?

  That's an interesting point you make because based on your experience as a prosecutor and your knowledge of the case, what do you believe Brian Kohberger's MO is? There's been the term incel thrown around as well as far as who he was and what could have potentially motivated him. What do you think? Do you think he just wanted, he had a thirst to kill and he had been planning this? He wanted to be smarter and prove he was smarter? What do you think it is?

• 15:30Speaker 04

  I've thought about this a lot, which of course, none of this is probative, but I have thought about a lot because I think I was about five years into felony prosecutions, nothing but felonies. And at that point, I developed an expertise. I was dealing with nothing but hardcore, typically murder, serial murder, mass murder, serial rape, serial child molestation, and any type of arson, which is extremely difficult to prove. And I was sitting in court looking over at the defendant. The jury wasn't there, of course, because I wouldn't look at the defendant from the jury.

• 16:11Speaker 04

  And I was thinking, why did he leave this wake of pain behind him? You know, like a speedboat leaving a wake that would touch so many lives. And I can speak to the truth of that. My fiance was murdered shortly before our wedding. I dropped out of school. My dream of becoming a Shakespearean literature professor was over. My dream of being a wife and a mother and having a family, over, destroyed.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  And because of that, over 20 years passed before I could bring myself to have that dream again. And I was an older, pregnant mom, highly, highly risky. And my daughter Lucy and I almost died because I gave birth so late in life. My little girl. It affected my life, my decisions, my career as it is.

• 17:22Speaker 04

  The way I raise my children, the way I see the world, everything.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  So, I was sitting in court looking and thinking, "Why would you leave that wake of pain? It ruined so many lives." And then it hit me like a thunderbolt. Why ask why? You're wasting your time. That said, I will entertain your question as to motive. Think about Kohberger.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  Who was he before the murders? His sister had described him as a fat slob. We don't use the F-word in our home. Fat.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  Her words, not mine. A heroin addict, couldn't get a job, tried repeatedly to get on with police departments. So, like Barney Fife. Couldn't get on. He had to prove himself. He had to be a star of something. So, he began his studies in criminal procedure and criminology. He studied to the point where he was hired as a teaching assistant.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  Gets into a graduate degree program at WSU, Washington State University in Pullman. And he conducted all of these interviews with hardened criminals about their motivation and how they got caught and how they targeted their victim and what went through their mind at the time of their murder. And he'd pick felons that had committed violent crimes, like rape, like homicide. Almost as if he was trying to live vicariously through them. And I believe that the four victims were guinea pigs. He wanted to prove he could do it and not get caught.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  He wanted to feel what they felt, the other criminals. And he wanted to be master of his craft.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  That's why I think he did it. That's why I think he picked these victims. And a deep, deep misogyny hatred of women. Yeah, maybe because he couldn't get a woman. I don't know why. He hated women, but he obviously did. So you mix all that together and you get a devil's brew personified by Brian Kohberger. May he rot in hell.

• 19:58Annie Elise?

  Amen. And he obviously was not smart enough to get away with it. And the evidence that even has been made public to this day has been overwhelming, which leads me to my last question regarding Kohberger. And then I want to jump into the Tepe case, which you had mentioned earlier.

• 20:19Annie Elise?

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• 21:04Annie Elise?

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• 22:38Annie Elise?

  If you had been the prosecuting attorney on this case, what would you have done differently?

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Number one, I would have had the balls to take it to trial. Let's just start with that. Trial is never easy. It's arduous, it's painful, and this would have been a long trial, too. But that's why you're elected to the district attorney's position. That's why you get paid. You don't get paid to hide in your office and take cheap pleas. That is not what is expected of you.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  So, effin' do it! Get in there and try the case!

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Overwhelming evidence of guilt. There's never a slam dunk. Do I have to say O.J. Simpson?

• 23:33Speaker 04

  But there was so much evidence in this case. I mean, if you're gonna have the death penalty, and I'm not preaching pro or anti-death penalty right now, but if you're in a jurisdiction with the death penalty and you are the elected DA, you're just a house pet sitting in your office, you're afraid to get out there and try the case, get in the ring, get dirty sweat, bleed, but try the case? I mean, I don't know, if they reelect him, it's on them.

• 24:01Annie Elise?

  Yeah, I know so many people were angered with that and still are angry with that. So, thank you for sharing your opinion on that. I want to move into the Tepe murders. You mentioned you have stacks and stacks of paperwork regarding this case, and this is relatively...

• 24:16Speaker 04

  Rains.

• 24:17Annie Elise?

  Oh, perfect, because I have a lot of questions. Now, for anybody who's listening, who's a bit unfamiliar, back on December 30th, 2025, Spencer and Monique Tepe were gunned down in their home while their one-year-old and four-year-old children were inside the home, luckily left physically unharmed. However, weeks went by without any arrests, until finally, an arrest was made, and it was Monique's ex-husband of nearly a decade ago, Michael McKee, 39 years old, which shocked everybody, I think, to be like, it's been 10 years almost since you divorced? How long has he been in the picture? Has he been harboring a grudge? And court documents do allege a history of threats and abuse stemming from Michael toward

• 25:02Annie Elise?

  Monique, not only during their marriage, but after their marriage as well. And the probable cause affidavit that was just released regarding the arrest and things regarding in this case, it showed that Michael McKee was actually at the house on December 6th, which was 24 days before the murders happened. Now luckily, Spencer and Monique were at a football game that night, so nothing happened. However, based on your knowledge and what you have been covering and looking into, do you think that Michael was there casing the area, getting familiar? Or do you think he was intending to actually kill them 24 days earlier?

• 25:45Speaker 04

  I think he knew their movements. I don't know if he hacked into their email. I don't know if something was mentioned on social media that they were going to the championship playoff in Indianapolis, the Big Ten playoff. I think he knew that they were gone. He was caught on a neighbor's surveillance video entering the curtilage, which is a legal term of art, meaning the area surrounding your home or your domicile. It could be an apartment, it could be a camper, it could be a tent. What is curtilage? It could be a garage. It could be a portico. It could be a tool shed. It could be a disconnected garage.

• 26:30Speaker 04

  It could be a dollhouse. It could be a doghouse in the backyard. You typically, under the law, do not need a separate search warrant to search the curtilage. But this is what I think happened. Looking at the outside of the Tepe home, Monique and Spencer shared with their two children, there was an enclosed back, I'll call it a yard, but it was bricked over. There's a little bit of grass surrounding the brick. And it was, from what I can see, and it was, the fence was attached to the house. Here's the house, and there's a little bit of fence on either side, which is attached to the house.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  And that fence goes around the back and completely encloses the back area. From looking at the wedding photos where Monique and Spencer are standing in the backyard, yes, they were married and murdered in that same home. That fence looks to be at least four to five feet tall. And it's solid. You can't see through it. The affidavit states that surveillance reveals Dr. Michael McKee, the murder defendant, entered the curtilage of the home. That doesn't mean he was seen entering the front door.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  What does that tell me? He was seen getting over the fence,

• 28:02Speaker 04

  into the backyard area, such as it is. On the back of the home, there is a door entrance in either a basement door or window entrance. And he stayed in there for hours, which means to me, he got access into the home proper.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  What did he do in there?

• 28:25Speaker 04

  I don't know. Go through her underwear drawer? Look at scrapbooks? Look at the wedding album? Go in the children's room? He had on his dating website. He wanted children. And as he sat, gnashing his teeth and twisting his tail, he watched Monique remarry to the man of her dreams, Mr. Right, not Mr. Right Now. And have two beautiful children. He probably saw christening photos. No telling what he saw. Now, Monique did not keep a social media profile. She's probably too scared to. But it leaked out. Family members, friends would post pictures and the wedding video was posted by a relative.

• 29:10Speaker 04

  How many times do you think he went through that? But I believe the neighbor surveillance video caught him jumping the fence and then disappearing and not coming back out for hours. He was in that home. He got the lay of the home. He probably had already looked up the floor plan. He probably had already looked at the home on Realtor.com or Zillow or something.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  I imagine he knew the layout before he went in, but he stayed in there hours, luxuriating. Probably smelled of perfume. I don't know what he did. But he knew where he was going the night of the murders. I think he knew they would be gone. And I think he went in to look around the home. Now, this is why I think he knew that they would be gone. That night at the Big Ten Championship, Annie.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Monique was there with her husband Spencer and a group of friends. The friends go, "Hey, where's Monique?" And Spencer said, words to the effect, "Oh, she went back to the hotel." This was at halftime in a very expensive ticket game. She never came back. She was so upset. And they go, "Well, what's wrong?" And he said, "Something to do with her ex-husband." It's no coincidence that he's skulking around in her home and she gets upset, something to do with her husband, and leaves the game halftime and goes to her hotel room, upset, distraught. "I don't know what he did. Did he send a text going, 'Hey, you left your bedroom light on,' or, 'Hey, I just checked to see if the coffee was still on,'

• 30:48Speaker 04

  or, 'Hey, I love the nursery for the babies.'" There's no telling what he said to her or if he said anything, but something at that exact time got her really upset and she left the festivities. So he knew they were gone. Oh, by Michelle. Everyone thinks that Spencer was shot multiple times and Monique was shot once. That is not true, according to this document we've unearthed. This was a document filed Jan. 11, 2026, Franklin County Municipal Court, State v. Michael David McKee. Quote, "Complainant being duly sworn states the above named defendant,

• 31:32Speaker 04

  Michael McKee, on or about the 30th day of December did, purposefully, with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another, Monique Tepe, by shooting the victim multiple times with a firearm." She was shot multiple times, too, according to this document. Which means to me, he unloaded the gun on both of them. What?

• 32:01Annie Elise?

  Oh, absolutely. I do want to ask you this really quick, Nancy. Based on your experience not only covering cases, but prosecuting cases, have you ever seen a case in which somebody harbors such a grudge and resentment for a decade long before striking?

• 32:27Speaker 04

  In a domestic homicide I investigated and personally prosecuted,

• 32:34Speaker 04

  the husband murdered the wife,

• 32:38Speaker 04

  hit her in the head, set the house on fire. Millionaire, I might add. Beautiful home. When fire trucks arrived, he was lounging à la romanesque in the yard across the street. It was like 3 a.m. as I recall. He was completely dressed, khakis, belt, shoes, wallet, glasses. And he talked to them for like three or four minutes and went, "Oh yeah, my wife's in there."

• 33:07Speaker 04

  He had hated her for years. But I'd have to say no, because I do not believe that defendant

• 33:17Speaker 04

  had planned the murder for so long and had nursed a grudge for so long. I would say Dr. McKee is the first one I've seen that nursed his hatred for nearly a decade. And during that time, he threatened to kill her. We are now learning that he raped her during the marriage and choked her during the marriage.

• 33:45Speaker 04

  Horrible marriage. Horrible.

• 33:48Annie Elise?

  Horrible man. What advice would you give to the Franklin County prosecutor as she takes on her first felony murder case?

• 33:59Speaker 04

  Honestly?

• 34:03Speaker 04

  Let the vets try the case.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  She has never tried a homicide case. No offense. She's a great lawyer.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  But this would be her first homicide prosecution. She's third chair.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Just let these two guys that have tried many, many homicides, let them do what they do, be secure, and you are the boss of them. If you see something going sideways, which I doubt, you're in charge. But I would not trust this to a first-time homicide prosecutor. You asked me, and I'm telling you, I didn't lead a prosecution on my first case. H E double L N O. The first case I ever tried was a shoplifting, a felony shoplifting. And guess what? The guy didn't even steal anything.

• 35:07Speaker 04

  I had to beg and plead to the jury, get him for attempted shoplifting. He did, after all, cut a CD player off the display and stick it down his pants and his crotch. Do you do that when you go shopping? No, he was trying to shoplift. It was a desperate plea. But I did get a conviction on attempted shoplifting. Look, I offered the guy probation, but he had such a long rap sheet, any conviction would have triggered jail time. So they're like, hey, I'll roll the dice. You're new, you'll probably lose. No, I did not try a hot double homicide as my first case. No, you work up to that. She's a great lady. She's smart, she's talented.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  Please let these two people that are veterans season homicide prosecution, let them do their thing, please. And the rest will fall into place. She's smart. I, I, she didn't win for nothing, okay? So let them go.

• 36:10Annie Elise?

  Well, I want to switch gears for a quick second and go back in time a little bit to the Casey Anthony's.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  Oh, dear.

• 36:18Annie Elise?

  Which is obviously, I know, I know.

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• 37:19Annie Elise?

  It's obviously a very notorious case. The majority of people feel that justice was not served in that case. I personally still remember exactly where I was when that verdict was read and just the visceral reaction I had of just disappointment and anger and frustration. And you, your coverage during that case was huge. Arguably iconic. I'm just gonna use that word because it truly was. And so I do have quite a few questions for you about that case. Starting with, out of all of the interviews that you conducted while covering that case, what one still stands out to you the most?

• 38:03Speaker 04

  I guess one of the interviews that stands out the most would be the interview with the judge.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  They sat back and watched it all unfold.

• 38:18Speaker 04

  Judge Belvin knows that Tom on Casey Anthony

• 38:24Speaker 04

  is responsible for Kelly's death.

• 38:28Speaker 04

  And I can only imagine what it felt like to watch that whole train wreck happen in front of you.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  Another thing that struck me was when I first met Cindy and George Anthony in person.

• 38:47Speaker 04

  And they had been portrayed so badly, so horribly in the press. Where the media would come and get on their yard.

• 38:59Speaker 04

  And they had lost their little baby, their precious Pearl, Kelly. She was like their daughter to them. Because top mom Casey Anthony did not take care of Kelly. They took care of her, they bought her food, her pull-ups, paid for her clothes. She lived with them, so did freeloader Casey Anthony. She was their world.

• 39:28Speaker 04

  And she's found in a trash bag, ten houses away from their home, in a swampy, trashy area. That's what they were dealing with. And then their own daughter, being suspected and tried for it. They were at the worst moment of their life. People dissected everything about them, everything they had ever done wrong or perceived to be wrong.

• 39:57Speaker 04

  And when I met them, they were delightful, smart, kind, caring people. And to think that George Anthony got dragged through the mud the way top mom dragged her own father through the mud? That her mother got up on the stand and committed perjury to try and save top mom's life?

• 40:31Speaker 04

  I feel so badly for them. Another, another interview that really sticks out of my mind is when I spoke with the bodyguard, so to speak. Remember Tot Mom went to jail first on minor offenses. I don't know, was it check cashing or something like that?

• 40:51Annie Elise?

  Check cashing, forging the checks and then, yeah, she started lying about her job at Disney World. Yep.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. So she was in jail on a minor offense before she was arrested for murder. And she made bond and got out. The bonding company had to stay with her so she would not abscond because everybody knew she was going to get charged with murder. And of course, many people in that position would try to leave the country.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  He told me, she's been in jail, right? And Kelly hasn't been found, her body hasn't been found. She's still missing. She comes home from the jail. They walk into the Anthony home. The first thing she says, it's not, "What do you know about Kelly? Where is my daughter? What's being done?"

• 41:43Speaker 04

  The first thing she says, she walks in, she goes, "What's her supper?"

• 41:53Speaker 04

  I mean, really?

• 41:58Speaker 04

  I'm not a shrink, but boy, would I like to analyze that if I had the know-how. And another thing that he, the bail bondsman, observed. So many people to this day go, "Oh, George Anthony did it." He did not do it, number one. But the bodyguard observed George Anthony jump on Tot Mom and push her against the wall and goes, "Where's Kelly? Where is Kelly? What'd you do with her?"

• 42:30Speaker 04

  If he knew where she was, I don't think he would have had that outburst. George is a lot of things, a lot of good things, but he ain't an Oscar nominated actor. Okay? He did that frustration and anger and pain and loss. He wanted to find out where she was. And if you look at the jailhouse videos of their conversations, you know, with the glass between them, every time they would approach, George and Cindy both would ask, you know, what about Kelly? She would go ballistic and unload a string of curse words at her parents.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  So I just don't see George pushing her about Kelly's whereabouts and her reaction to that. That, to me, indicates George and Cindy truly did not know where Kelly was. And everything they said at trial was BS. Everything Bia said, everything Top Mom allowed him to say, it's all BS.

• 43:41Annie Elise?

  Thank you for sharing that. I feel like that's something that I haven't personally heard before, especially what Casey had said when she walked back into the house after being released. But a couple of years ago, I know you're aware of this, she came out with her new documentary or docu-series on Peacock of, you know, Where the Truth Lies, I think is what it was called, where she really doubles down firm on the stance that her father, George, is responsible for this, and she even makes further allegations, which...

• 44:10Speaker 04

  Liar!

• 44:11Annie Elise?

  Yeah, trying to throw a hail mary. But what I found was interesting is in that docu-series, she also admits that Zanny the nanny never existed, which I think we all collectively knew. But when you heard that, did you feel vindicated in a way? Or feel like, I'm so happy she finally acknowledged that, even though she still is painting George as the villain and the cause? I think we all expected that and knew that, but what was your take when you heard that?

• 44:43Speaker 04

  Woman? You think I get validation or vindication from Top Mom Casey Anthony? I never watched her documentary.

• 44:55Annie Elise?

  Oh, good. It would infuriate you.

• 44:57Speaker 04

  What she said

• 45:01Speaker 04

  and is not worth the salt that goes in her bread. To still be blaming George at this juncture, I mean, go away. Go away. I don't want to hear about your Substack. I don't want to hear you lecturing the Vice President about whatever.

• 45:21Annie Elise?

  She's now a legal advocate.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  I don't want to hear you or see you in your hot pants at a bar luring in another guy. What? I don't care. No, I do not get validation or vindication because Top Mom Casey Anthony admitted she lied. I already knew she lied.

• 45:38Annie Elise?

  Well, let me ask you this then, Nancy. If you were in a room with Casey today, what would you say to her? Would you ever even consider a sit-down with her?

• 45:49Speaker 04

  I was asked to be part of a documentary with Top Mom Casey Anthony. And when I learned

• 46:01Speaker 04

  I couldn't ask my own questions and I could not be assured that my appearance would not be altered or edited or my words changed.

• 46:15Speaker 04

  I didn't want to do it. I did not do it. I also do not want to give a platform to Top Mom Casey Anthony, who I, and many believe,

• 46:27Speaker 04

  murdered her little girl. Now, did she intend to commit murder? In the traditional sense? Such as I take a gun, I hold it up to you and go, "You're going to die now," and I pull the trigger? Maybe not. It could have been along the lines of making homemade chloroform, which she looked up on the computer and had Cindy take the fall for it.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  It could have been ODing her on Benadryl. It could have been giving her Benadryl and putting, putting tape over her mouth and putting her in the car trunk and letting her sleep and she dies from asphyxiation. I don't know how Kelly died.

• 47:11Speaker 04

  But I do believe it was a result of what Top Mom did.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Now, how was that murder?

• 47:25Speaker 05

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• 47:48Speaker 04

  That is murder on several different levels. It could be felony murder, which is a death that occurs during the commission of a felony. You may not mean the death to happen. Like, you and I go rob a bank, and you say, Nancy, don't shoot anybody. And I go in, I see a teller, and go bam, she's dead. And you're like, what did I just tell you? Don't kill anybody. Well, you're on the hook for felony murder. You're committing a felony, robbing a bank, and a death occurs, whether you had anything to do with it or not. I mean, one of the tellers could drop over, kill over with a heart attack, and that could still be felony murder. Yes. It could have been felony murder, child abuse or neglect by putting her in a trunk

• 48:32Speaker 04

  or ODing her on Benadryl, and she died.

• 48:38Speaker 04

  It could have been abandoned and malignant heart. What is that? Another form of murder. For instance, you get in your car, let's just pretend it's a Porsche,

• 48:50Speaker 04

  and you drive 90 miles an hour through a festival, a street festival, and you mow down four or five people. Do you know them? No. Did you mean to kill them? No. But you had such an abandoned, malignant heart, no sympathy or empathy for the human life. That's murder. So there are several legal theories under which Top Mom could be prosecuted for murder as opposed to intentional murder. I'm gonna strangle, kill, and dead, and doing it.

• 49:23Speaker 04

  I think that was a major flaw. I don't think the jury understood all the levels and all the theories under which she was guilty. But I don't want to be part of a platform letting her trash other people and giving her one-sided tale of what happened without a thorough and sifting cross-examination.

• 49:44Annie Elise?

  I think that's extremely commendable and fantastic. I mean, enough with Casey. We can leave her in the garbage where she belongs. I do have another question for you before we get into the wrap-up segment. What are your thoughts on Ellen Greenberg's case now being re-examined? Do you think that her family will ever receive the justice that they're looking for?

• 50:06Speaker 04

  I pray to my Holy Father in heaven that they do. Since I first found out about Ellen's murder deemed a suicide on the spot, just like that, I knew it was wrong and launched my own investigation, which has taken years. I even wrote a book called What Happened to Ellen to explore what happened, I think, and have been saying for years, the only way to get the truth is for the feds to take over. Why?

• 50:48Speaker 04

  At the time, the local district attorney, for whatever reason, which is a whole line of inquiry, decided not to fully investigate the case. Now, the governor is Josh Shapiro. He was connected to the DA's office at the time. Then he became the AG.

• 51:12Annie Elise?

  He connected to the uncle.

• 51:13Speaker 04

  Attorney General, top cop. And when the parents begged and screamed and pleaded and demanded that the case be reopened, he's like, whoa, that's my old office. Of course, we didn't do anything wrong. I know those people. They would never. And when you're friends and colleagues with people, you have on blinders. So, again, it wasn't investigated. Now, he's the governor. Of course, he's not going to claim the AG and the DA are responsible and did a bad job. He is part and parcel of it because of his connection. The only way for a full investigation to take place is for the feds to intervene. And I pray to God that they are true to their word and they do it. I've been screaming that. You're preaching to the choir. I've been asking for the feds to get involved for years.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  Do I think she was murdered? Yes. You cannot stab yourself over 20 times in the back, including severing your dura, which is the protective sheath around your spine, all on your own. That did not happen.

• 52:11Annie Elise?

  I agree. And there were so many things after the fact. Circumstantial, yes, but the fiance's uncle taking her computer the following day. So many different things. Him calling the cousin before 911 that just, I don't think anybody that I have actually spoken with believes that this was a suicide. So I've spoken with Ellen's mom quite a few times too, and I'm hopeful that they do finally get answers as to what happened to Ellen. So you are known for your hot takes, your no nonsense, and your just straight, you know, no bullshit opinion. So I want to just get your hot take, your one sentence hot take on the following people, and then we're going to wrap this up. Barry Morpheus.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  There was one person in the state, the one civilian that had access to BAM, B brother, A alpha, M mother, which is a very, very powerful animal tranquilizer. It brings down rhinos and elephants. That was found in Suzanne Morpheus's system. That one civilian, we are told, that had access to that is Barry Morpheus. Chew on that, Morpheus. Next.

• 53:19Annie Elise?

  All right, Jodi Arias.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  Jodi Arias, the ultimate grifter and con who actually shot a bird at me in the courtroom. Haven't forgotten that. But that said, she changed her story multiple times. First, I wasn't there. Then her digital camera that caught shots of Travis Alexander during his death, and her foot on the scene was found in the washer tangled up in the sheets. When she was confronted with that, she goes, oh, okay, I was there, but two guys dressed as ninjas came in. They killed him and I got away. Really? What farce of a crime story movie have you been watching?

• 54:06Speaker 04

  Finally, she changed her story to self-defense and tried to paint Travis as a perv. Rot in hell, Arius. Next.

• 54:15Annie Elise?

  All right, my final one, Scott Peterson.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  Ooh, talk about the devil. This is my, one of my favorite stories about Scott Peterson. This says it all. So, two bodies washed ashore, San Francisco Bay. Detectives go to Peterson, and they say, "Scott Peterson, we have horrible news. We've gotten a DNA match. Those two bodies are Lacey and Connor." Within 15 minutes, the detectives tell me, "This did not come out at trial." Scott Peterson's in the backseat, he goes, "Hey, can we drive through In-N-Out? I want a double double with cheese and a shake."

• 55:03Speaker 04

  Really?

• 55:04Annie Elise?

  Gum, the worst.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  He just found out, Lacey and Connor are absolutely dead. Their bodies on the San Francisco Bay beach, washed up. Somehow Connor escaped Lacey's uterus. They're both dead. The hope is gone. You will never hold your son in your arms. I have a son and a daughter. That would be the worst thing that could ever happen to me, is to be taken away from them. And he wants that effin' double double with cheese? Anything else?

• 55:45Annie Elise?

  Yeah. No, thank you so much for joining today, Nancy. Can you let everybody know where they can watch you, where they can listen to you, just so they can get more information too?

• 55:54Speaker 04

  Well, thank you. We are at Crime Stories on YouTube. We also air first at Fox One, the streaming giant. We are on Sirius XM every single day, and of course, on iHeart, our radio home. So, please join us. We live chat throughout the program on YouTube every single night, so please join us.

• 56:17Annie Elise?

  Amazing. Thank you so much, Nancy.

• 56:21Speaker 04

  Thank you for inviting me. Please invite me again. My dear.

• 56:24Annie Elise?

  All right, so I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. I certainly enjoyed talking with Nancy. I feel like I could have chatted with her for hours. I just, look, I have papers and papers and papers here on my desk. I had so many questions that I wanted to ask her, and unfortunately, we didn't get a chance to get to all of them. So, we are definitely gonna need to have her on for round two. So, let me know in the comments if you enjoyed this episode, what you want me to ask Nancy next time she's on, and your thoughts on these cases. All right, guys, until the next one. Be nice, don't kill people, don't join any cults, and just be a good human. All right, bye.

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