Jason and the Argonauts

From clashing rocks to golden treasure, Jason and the Argonauts is the ultimate Greek mythological adventure. But what lies behind the legend? And why has it endured for millennia? In this episode, Tristan Hughes is joined by bestselling author Caroline Lawrence to chart Jason’s epic quest for the Golden Fleece. From harpies and dragons to the witch Circe and the bronze giant Talos, discover the mythical monsters, heroic crossovers and extraordinary journey that make this tale a timeless example of the hero’s journey — from Greece to Colchis and back again. For more of Caroline Lawrence and Jason and the Argonauts on The Ancients: The Minotaur: https://open.spotify.com/episode/72Efg0BmVFYunKg2FsDOQO The Golden Fleece: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6OtHIiiC87BN4RMyOngK0t Presented by Tristan Hughes. Audio editor is Aidan Lonergan, the producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music from Epidemic Sounds The Ancients is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tristan Hughes?

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• 0:32Speaker 01

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• 1:44Tristan Hughes?

  This episode is sponsored by Smart Travel, a new podcast from NerdWallet. Now, you know that one friend who always finds the best travel deals, picks the right cards, and somehow ends up in first class for the price of coach? Smart Travel is like that friend, but in podcast form. They cover all things travel finance, so you can stop stressing and actually start enjoying your trips. I'm lucky enough to travel a fair bit. You might have heard me talking about being on tour with The Ancients in Australia and New Zealand quite recently.

• 2:18Tristan Hughes?

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• 3:07Tristan Hughes?

  It's The Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today, we're exploring arguably the greatest of the mythological Greek adventure stories, and a story that has survived in full: the legend of Jason and the Argonauts. Their quest to retrieve the golden fleece, the fleece of a magical, golden-winged ram, protected by a dragon and owned by a faraway kingdom east of the Black Sea. Jason and his crew of heroes' many adventures during this quest to retrieve the golden fleece have captivated people for millennia. This is a story that goes from Greece to the Bosphorus, that narrow strait of water where

• 3:47Tristan Hughes?

  Istanbul is today, to modern-day Georgia and the ancient kingdom of Colchis, before an extraordinary return journey that sees the Argonauts voyage up the River Danube, around the Adriatic Sea, across the Alps, navigating North Africa, before finally returning to Greece. It is quite the epic story, full of famous heroes from Greek mythology, a crossover par excellence. And it also features many well-known mythical creatures, ranging from harpies to the dragon that guarded the golden fleece, to the witch Circe, the sirens, the metal giant Tellus, and more. Joining me to cover this epic ancient voyage from beginning to end is the bestselling

• 4:32Tristan Hughes?

  author Caroline Lawrence. Caroline has been on the podcast before to cover the story of the Minotaur. She has recently written a book about Greek mythology, which includes the legend of Jason and the Argonauts, and how it is a classic example of the hero's journey, something we see time and time again in movies today. Let's get into it.

• 4:55Tristan Hughes?

  Caroline, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Welcome back.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Oh, I am so honoured to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It was really good fun last time, and I hope we'll have fun today.

• 5:06Tristan Hughes?

  Oh, I'm sure we will. And as I said, last time was the Minotaur. This time you've got just as juicy a topic of ancient Greek mythology. Jason and the Argonauts. I mean, Caroline, this feels like this ancient Greek version of the Avengers, this epic story of heroes all together going on a quest to a faraway land.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And no other story from the Greek myths has been retold in as many different ways by as many different authors as Jason and the Argonauts. And it's one of my favourites. I think it started off being one of my favourites because of the 1963 film, Jason and the Argonauts, which is so cheesy, but it's so wonderful. And it's got amazing special effects by Ray Harryhausen, including gods that grow and puffs of smoke, and Jason being taken to Mount Olympus and put on a board like he's a little chess piece. And Thalos, the bronze man who turns his head and chases them slowly around the island.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  And the skeletons that Jason has to fight. It's just so visually stunning. We watched it again last night, and it's just so cheesy and so fun. But really, he's a very wonderful hero. And I think one of the reasons his story is the most retold is it's kind of the primal hero's journey narrative. And the hero's journey, as I'm sure you know, is where a hero goes on a quest to get a thing, which Alfred Hitchcock calls the MacGuffin. It's just something the hero goes for to get them on the journey. And along the way, they meet allies and opponents, and they undergo tests and trials. And they finally return back home and they've learned what they need to learn.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  And the hero's journey, of course, as Joseph Campbell coined that phrase and said that all world myths can be summed up in this cycle, the hero's journey. And then Hollywood screenwriters just ran with it. George Lucas was the first to take the idea of the hero's journey and make it into Star Wars. And then another guy, Christopher Vogler, wrote a book called The Writer's Journey. And then Blake Snyder, another Hollywood screenwriter, actually coined a genre, the Golden Fleece Story, which is the hero's journey. So he actually calls it the Golden Fleece genre, where the hero goes on a quest to get a thing and comes home again.

• 7:37Tristan Hughes?

  Because it's not just Jason and the Argonauts, is it? There are so many stories of Greek mythology where it is centered around heroes going to do a quest. I might immediately think of Heracles or Hercules with his labors. Why do you think that the Greeks loved these stories of heroes going on these epic adventures, going on the hero's journey? What made them so popular, do you think, in ancient Greece?

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yes, you get the single hero, the lone hero, you know, who goes off on his own, maybe with gadgets like Perseus, you know, he's got lots of gadgets to help him. And Heracles has his weapons. But Jason is fun because he gathers allies, a bit like Neo in The Matrix, who actually goes on a ship called the Argo and has pals with him. That's a fun aspect, that there are all these different helpers. It's a team exercise. But also that the Greeks were so interested in their world. And in this, Jason sails to these amazing places that they might or might not have heard of. And actually, the journey always changes as people, the poets, keep retelling it and

• 8:46Speaker 02

  get more knowledge of the geography, they get more and more accurate about where he's going. And so it's kind of a travelogue, really. You can travel and go to these amazing places and meet amazing characters. So I think those are fascinating. And there's also an etiological element. That's, of course, explaining how things came to be. For example, how certain races of people founded different cities. And I'll tell you about, if we have time, I'll tell you about Euphemus later on, one of the Argonauts, who has a really fascinating story.

• 9:23Tristan Hughes?

  Does the story then of the Argonauts, as I said, if it's not just Jason, of course, he's the main protagonist, and we'll get to more of his story in a moment. But it almost feels as it has all of these other heroes on it, who all have their own stories attached to them. You know, in modern Hollywood today, in films, sometimes you get these great crossovers where you have several heroes who have their own movies, but they come together in a greatly anticipated movie where their stories collide and they work together. This feels like the equivalent in ancient Greece, doesn't it? This was the epic crossover story of ancient Greek heroes.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. And in a way, all of Greek mythology is this spider web of connections and interconnections. And what's really interesting about Jason is that he's the generation before the Iliad. So he's what I call the Caledonian Argonauts. They went on the Caledonian boar hunt, and they went on the Argo. And they're often the fathers, like Peleus, the father of Achilles, is on the Argo with Jason. So we haven't yet had the Trojan War. And in fact, Jason was raised by Chiron, the centaur. And when he sets off on his quest, he waves bye bye to Chiron, who's holding little baby Achilles, because of course,

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Iron teaches Achilles. Chiron, the centaur, is the great teacher and kind of mentor. So that's really fun. And I think that that's something to keep in mind, that these are the generation before the Trojan War, and then we're going to get all these subsequent fantastic stories.

• 11:04Tristan Hughes?

  Well, that leads me nicely into what I was going to ask next, Caroline, which would be, how old do we think the story of Jason and the Argonauts is? I mean, when do we have the earliest mention of it? And then when do we finally get the whole text in itself? Or do we get the whole text in the in the beginning? What do we know?

• 11:20Speaker 02

  I'm glad you asked. I think it's probably got an oral tradition, as the Iliad and the Odyssey did. So a lot of oral stuff was already there. Almost everybody mentions him, but let me just tell you who the six main, I found six main poets. We've got Pindar in the sixth century B.C. tells about the quest, Herodotus in the fifth century B.C., Calymachus, the fourth century B.C., Apollonius Rhodius in the third century, Diodorus Siculus in the first century B.C. Then you go to the Roman, you've got Ovid and Valerius Flacis. Ovid kind of straddles the two centuries. Valerius Flacis was a Flavian author who wrote a version

• 12:03Speaker 02

  called the Argonauts as well in Latin. And finally, we've got Apollodorus, who does a really succinct kind of summary in the, at the end of the first century. So they all told the quest, but the earliest mention we get is in the Iliad, where Homer actually mentions Jason's son, which is really fun. He doesn't mention the quest, he just says, "Many ships were there from Lemnos, bearing wine, sent forth by Jason's son Eunias, whom Hypsipoly bore to Jason, shepherd of the host." Now, that's a really interesting little epithet that's given to Jason, the shepherd of the host, and it's also used by Hesiod, who's

• 12:46Speaker 02

  about the same time as Homer, who mentions Jason marrying Medea, and also calls him a shepherd of the people, a shepherd of the host. And then you also get a mention in the Odyssey, one line, that the Argo was the only ship that ever went through the clashing rocks safely. So you've got the little snippets that show that in that, in the eighth century, they knew about him, but there are no complete, the first complete story of the quest is from Pindar. One of his Pythian Odes, the Fourth Pythian Ode, often considered his best. And that's in, actually, we know the exact date of that.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  It's four, six, two BCE is the date of the Fourth Pythian Ode that first tells the story of Jason. And it's got some of the basic elements in it, but not all.

• 13:41Tristan Hughes?

  But I think that also means we need to raise an important point right now. Is it Caroline? And this seems to be something that we hear again and again, that with Greek mythology, although we may love it and we will cover the main beats. Is it important to highlight that in these different versions that that stretch from, you know, classical Greece and Pindar to the Roman period? That they all have their own elements into it. You can almost see the story evolving over time and certain characters being there in one version, not there in another version, kind of thing.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does. It does. What it does is it stays pretty much the same. You've got the tropes, but they will emphasize what they want to emphasize for their political. One, one thing I realized is that poets were political in the past, that the Fourth Pythian Ode was actually written, probably commissioned by a man who wanted to be reinstated to in favor with a certain king. So he got Pindar to write this ode to the king who'd won a chariot race with hints of, you know, I'm your pal, reinstate me. And of course, we know that Virgil wrote the Aeneid to, to promote Octavian, who became Augustus. And so there's a lot of political stuff in these, in the retellings.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  And then you get different flavors according to their, their tastes. For example, Apollonius Rhodius, who's the Hellenistic writer in the so-called Alexandrian style, which apparently means fancy schmancy, showing off your knowledge.

• 15:14Tristan Hughes?

  It's as, as third or second century B.C., isn't it? After Alexander the Great.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  He is the third century B.C. Yeah, second century B.C. Yeah. He's writing around two fifty B.C. So he's, apparently he writes the best Medea, apart from Euripides, of course. He writes a really good Medea, but his Jason is insipid. Whereas Valerius Flacis is said to write a really good Jason, but Medea's kind of skimmed over. So they show their interest, but they, they play with the same basic tropes. And that's what I think. All of those who retell the myths today, do we take these basic building blocks of each myth and we emphasize the one that we want to promote our own views with?

• 15:56Tristan Hughes?

  Well, let's start going through these different tropes now, Caroline, and it feels right that we start at the beginning, doesn't it? So how does the story of Jason and the Argonauts? How does it begin? I mean, how are we introduced to this character that is Jason?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, he's, he's great. He's often introduced, grown up, and then we have a little flashback to him. And in, I think, probably the best, one of the most famous accounts is Apollonius of Rhodes, the one who wrote around 250 B.C., his Argonauts. He starts off with Jason arrives with one sandal, essentially. So let me just tell you basically first what the kind of essence of Jason is, what his basic story was. All the traditions agree that Jason is a hero who goes with a bunch of other heroes called the Argonauts to get a fleece from a faraway country called Colchis,

• 16:58Speaker 02

  the country of Aetes, father of Medea. He's got to overcome lots of tasks and he's got to get the fleece from the dragon and bring it back to claim his kingdom. So that's the kind of basic account. And most of the accounts give Jason 50 heroes on his journey, one or two give him 100, but he sails in a pentaconter, a ship with, with 50 oars. So it makes sense that you've got 50 heroes, one for each oar. And his name is interesting. It means healer or atoner. And it's actually linked to, it's actually linked to the word, the name Jesus in some accounts, or Joshua. So that's interesting.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  And he's the son of Isan, grandson of Creteus. And he's the heir to the throne of Yolchus, which is kind of...

• 17:54Speaker 02

  In Greece and Thessaly, and if you imagine Athens and Olympia up north, halfway between, kind of on the coast there, that's Thessaly, and it's now a place called Volus. So he's gonna set out from Colchis, go to the end of the world, which is essentially, he's gonna go to Colchis, which is the Black Sea, that's that big body of water above Turkey, on the right-hand side, I'm not good with east and west, so the very right-hand side, go there, through all sorts of places, and then come back again. So that's his most basic story. And we start off with him arriving with one sandal. And the ruler of Iolcus, who's, I think, his uncle, Pelias, which should be his kingdom, has been warned about the one-sandaled man. Now, some of the accounts are really fun.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  They have Jason just losing the sandal as he crosses a river. One account has Jason saving an old woman in a river, who's actually Hera in disguise, and he loses his sandal that way. So that shows he's kind and good and noble, and Hera likes him, and she's gonna be his helper. And unusually, because Hera is usually the enemy of most heroes.

• 19:02Tristan Hughes?

  Yes, that's unusual, isn't it?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Very unusual. And in the great film, she actually, there's a little twist in the film of Jason and the Argonaut, where she appears on the riverbank and makes Pelias, the evil king, fall in the water, and Jason rescues him, and when they come out, Pelias looks down and sees he only has one sandal. So that's, that's a really good twist. So that's the first trope, is the prophecy about the man will come. And in Pindar, this is so great. Pindar describes, has a wonderful description of Jason arriving in Iolcus, wearing two different types of clothing. Get this, a tight-fitting magnesium tunic that clung to his superb limbs,

• 19:47Speaker 02

  and a leopard skin to protect him from shivering showers, and his long hair flows down his back. Now, that shows he's really young, he hasn't cut his hair yet. And in almost all the accounts, we emphasize that Jason's quite young and many of them say he just has his first beard. So he's like 20 years old. He's quite young and good looking. So this is very impressive. So that's our first trope.

• 20:13Tristan Hughes?

  Before we go on to the the next trope, Caroline, I'd like to ask a bit more about that region. So Thessaly. So as you say, imagine Athens and Delphi, a bit further south, Thermopolis, like the the southern border of Thessaly, isn't it? And above Thessaly, you have Macedonia, Thessaloniki in in modern day Greece. And I believe also Thessaly, you do have much later, you have a king called Jason, Jason of Pharai. So it almost seems like the name Jason really does stick in that area of the world. With with the old colossus as well. I mean, I must admit, that's not a name of a place that I would instantly recognize. But I believe it's it's big in Bronze Age times. So if you also mentioned that the whole setting is

• 20:55Tristan Hughes?

  a generation before the Trojan War, should we also be imagining that this young Jason, this story of the sandal and the river and all of that, this is taking place more than 3,000 years ago in in the Bronze Age? Is that is the idea, is it? That's the setting?

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yes, I think we can firmly place it in the Bronze Age, especially the oral traditions and the kind of establishment of who are these people in different areas of ancient Greece? By the way, there's a great resource on the internet, which is the World History Encyclopedia. And there's a map of the hero Jason and his quest with the Argonauts. And it's absolutely superb because it shows you, it follows Apollonius's version, and it shows you his very circuitous route all around the ancient world and what happens in each place. And for me, I'm not good with geography, so it's good for me to get a a vision of where Yolcus is.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  And it's kind of like, again, the middle right coast of Greece. And you can just sail across to Troy. And in fact, one of their places, they sail by Troy in the Argo. But they don't stop there, but it's a kind of little hint. Oh, there's Troy on the starboard bow.

• 22:12Tristan Hughes?

  So you've mentioned that first trope straight away, Caroline. Does the second one follow straight after in the story? Is that the logical place to go next?

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, second one follows as ever. The king says, and they do this in various ways. You can have the kingdom if you do this task, if you complete this task, go get the golden fleece. Now, we don't have time to go into what the golden fleece was and everything. I think you've got another brilliant history hit telling the story of Phrixus and the golden ram that flies and stuff, that he's got to go to the end of the world to get the thing, the golden fleece. So Jason says, yes, I will go to the end of the world and I'll get lots of heroes. So that's the next trope kind of is the gathering of heroes. And he's got to gather all the heroes and Apollonia starts off with a great long list of the heroes.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  And the movie has a really fun version where they have games to compete to see who will come, who gets to go on the Argo. And Hercules arrives and says, Hercules is here. What do I do? When do I compete? And they go, ha, ha, you don't have to compete, Hercules. You're just naturally in. And then Hylas, this young boy comes and he says, oh, I'm too late to compete, but what if I can beat Hercules or Heracles at one task? And Heracles says, the discus, hit that rock out to sea. And of course, Heracles throws the discus with his immense strength and it hits the rock way out at sea. And then Hylas, super clever, this always impressed me so much.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  He uses the discus like skipping stones on a pond. So he uses his brain and he hits the rock by skipping the discus. It skips on the water and hits the rock. And Heracles says, ha, ha, Hylas, you can come along. So that's one version. In another version, Hylas is Heracles's lover, boyfriend. And he will get only, they get only so far. And that's another trope that's coming up further.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Another fun trope is they get a bit, they make the argo, then they build the ship and they get a guy called Argo to build it, Argus to build the ship, name it after him. And they get a bit of magic wood from the Oaks of Didona, Zeus's sanctuary. And this bit of wood can speak. So they put the little speaking bit of wood into the argo so it can kind of, it's got a sat nav for them, it can help guide them along the way. And of course, in the great film, they do a figurehead of Iherera at the back of the ship and she opens her eyes and tells, gives Jason advice. So that's the third trope you could say is wood from the oak of Didona as part of the argo.

• 24:52Tristan Hughes?

  And just to jump in there as well, Caroline, that's an interesting point to make, isn't it? Because when someone says oracle was of ancient Greece, people will go straight away, Delphi, you know, the oracle of Apollo, or they might think of Olympia as well. But Didona in northwest Greece, which was the ancient region of Epirus or Epirus, as you said, oracle to Zeus, so king of the gods, and a very archaic oracle too. So even though the name of Didona is not as big as Delphi today, the fact that you've got wood from this sacred oracle to Zeus in the argo, I mean, that is a big deal. Don't, just because it's not Delphi, don't think that it's less important. Arguably, it's more important in the framing of the story.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And I love the idea that wood can speak, that's so great, isn't it? And you, again, you've got the idea of the approval of the gods, the presence of the gods are here. So that's super fun. Then they set off. And the first place they stop is the island of Lemnos. I don't know if you've ever been to Lemnos, I've not been to Lemnos, but it's roughly halfway between the eastern seaboard of Greece and Troy. And they arrive there.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  And there are all these women and no men on the island. Because unbeknownst to them, the women, for a various reason, have killed off all their, all the men on the island. They've murdered their husbands and killed off all the men. It's all to do with the curse and not worshiping some goddess and getting punished and a bad smell. So the Argonauts arrive there first off and all these women are there. This is great stuff. So they hang around there having fun for a while. And the only woman who didn't kill her father is Hypsipoly, who is the kind of queen of Lemnos. And she has a little dalliance with Jason.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  And he's gonna have two kids by her. So this is really interesting because of course Medea will kill his children, spoiler alert, later on. But these two children, one of them is the one who goes to fight at Troy. So that's where that son comes from. So they have fun on Lemnos and finally Heracles says, guys, come on, we got a quest. Let's go. So they all go.

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• 28:49Tristan Hughes?

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• 29:38Tristan Hughes?

  Before we get on to the next part, would you mind explaining a little bit more about who these other heroes are? We won't go into their big backstories, but of course, we've got the name Heracles there already. And we've got Jason, we've got their ship, the Argo. And if we go with the tradition, that it's just 50 of them on this ship. Who are some of the other very notable figures that we should think of being part of this? This crew of heroes assembled together, part of this great crossover?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, great, great, great question. Well, you've got Castor and Polydices, also known as Castor and Polix, who are slightly problematic because they're supposed to be the brothers of Helen of Troy. But she's much, she's the next generation, isn't she? If they're the generation before Troy, we'll just skim over that. The Castor and Polydices, who are good at boxing and they're good at, they're good at horse riding. And each of these heroes has a fun kind of talent. And one of them, there are two sons of Boreas, who are called Zetes and Calais. And they can fly.

• 30:46Tristan Hughes?

  That's pretty good special power.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  According to Pindar, they have purple wings. Now, they'll come into play when Jason meets the harpies, when they chase the harpies away. And Apollonius totally blows it. He could have a great scene where they're flying after the harpies and stuff, but he just has them kind of ambiguously chasing the harpies. So those guys can fly. Then there's another guy I mentioned called Euphemus. And he's the son of Poseidon. He can walk on the water.

• 31:18Tristan Hughes?

  Wow.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Is that not cool? I mean, I can totally see a film of these guys, you know? Two guys can fly with purple wings. One guy can walk on the water. And then you've got Orpheus, of course, who plays music so beautifully that when they come to the island of the sirens, instead of having to plug up their ears with wax like Odysseus, he can kind of play his music and overwhelm their siren song. And only one guy jumps in the water to get to them. So there's some really cool other heroes. I think, so I said Castor and Polyx, Orpheus, Heracles, Zetes and Calais. And of course, Euphemus, who can walk on water. And then Atalanta, according to some versions, but not in Apollonius's version.

• 32:03Tristan Hughes?

  She's the famous huntress, is it? Or the one with the, the other golden apple story, is it? With, with the race or she's a famous athlete and huntress? Is that the idea?

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I think I mentioned that I, I call this generation the Caledonian. Argonauts. So they also, a lot of them go on the Caledonian boar hunt and she's one who went on the Caledonian boar hunt. And she could run super fast. And she, her father didn't want her to marry, so he said, or she didn't want to marry. So she said, you can only marry me if you can beat me in a race. And the guy who beat her threw a golden apple, three golden apples to distract her and manage to win the race that way. So this is before she has run the race. She's appears on a lot of Greek Vases wrestling Peleus, the father of Achilles. That's apparently some fun story that we've kind of lost, but

• 32:52Speaker 02

  it's on a lot of pots, Greek pots. So that's lots of fun. I talk about that in my, my book about the Greek gods and goddesses. Pantheon, she said, getting in a little plug for her book.

• 33:04Tristan Hughes?

  Well, well, let's continue with the story then. So these women on the Isle of Lemnos, where Jason has a bit of fun and the others have a bit of fun for a time. Then Heracles is like, no, no, no, no, no. You need to remember what we're doing. We're going back on this quest. How does the story go on from here?

• 33:21Speaker 02

  This is a throwaway line in Apollonius. They stop on Samothrace and they're initiated into the mysteries. Then they get to the famous clashing rocks because they're coming up to the Hellespont, which is a narrow channel of water that goes from the Aegean, I believe, into the Propontis and then the Black Sea. And those are the famous clashing rocks, which Pindar describes as being alive, which is really good. And they're often confused with the rocks, the other rocks with Scylla and Charybdis down by Sicily. But these are clashing rocks. And again, that's done really in the film. It's huge fun. A giant Triton comes up and

• 34:06Speaker 02

  holds the rocks apart. And there are other methods. They, in Apollonius, they let a dove through and the dove goes through and the rocks clash and just get its tail feathers. And then as they're opening again, they quickly row and get through that way. And again, they're, they get their tail feathers kind of clipped off the very back of the ship. What's that called? The stern? Yeah. They get that clipped off. So that's the next fun bit. Is the clashing rocks. But then we go to Propontis, which is a little mini sea before they get to the Black Sea. And a very sad thing happens here. They land on another island and people there, Prince is called Sisyphus.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And he's young again with with downy hair and a beautiful young wife. And they're very friendly and they welcome the Argonauts and they feast them. And they even let them spend the night with with the unmarried women, you know, again, being very, very generous here. Argonauts are great. Everybody's happy in there. Bye bye. So the Argonauts sail off that night. There's a terrible storm, which which makes them run aground and it's night. And when they get on to the beach, the the people there start to attack them and they fight back. And they kill the people who are attacking them. And when dawn comes, they've killed their hosts from the day before. So young Sisyphus has been murdered and his wife is so destitute that she hangs herself.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  And they try to do funeral games in apology, but it's no good. They've killed their hosts from the day before. So they're kind of blundering around. You're getting a sense that they're blundering around.

• 35:45Tristan Hughes?

  And it's an interesting part of the world, that, isn't it? I mean, just kind of retrace our footsteps in the geography. So we've gone from Lemnos with the women. It's mentioned Samothrace there, so modern Samothraki. The Hades Pont, which is the modern Dardanelles. And then Propontis, which is modern the Sea of Marmara. So just kind of south of Istanbul before, as you say, he gets to the Black Sea. And Sisyphus, that becomes the name of a prominent Greek city-state on that Anatolian side of the the Sea of Marmara, isn't it? So I'm guessing is that the origin myth of that city?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, I'm I'm impressed, so impressed by your your knowledge of. Geography. And this is what I'm saying. It's you've got the exotica of these traveling to these amazing places, but also the etiology. Oh, that's where it gets its name. That guy died there. So he's given his name to that place. And now he'll always be memorialized with that name. So yeah, and we're getting more and more exotic and more and more strange things happen. And then they come to a really fun island or the place where Phineas, the blind prophet lives. And of course, this is the story of the harpies and how Phineas, again, he snubbed some god.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  I think it was Zeus and Zeus punishes him by making him blind and but giving him prophetic powers. So Phineas knows that Jason's going to come save him from the harpies, which are these horrible half-women, half-birds, who in some accounts have rooster heads and female bodies and claws. And they defecate and drip saliva everywhere and they they be foul all the food so that you can't even stand the smell. And when poor Phineas sits down to eat, they come and they be foul his food and take it away. Now, in the film, they do an amazing thing. And I'm sorry, I keep harking on about the film, but it's so brilliant.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  They actually filmed it in Pastum, south of Pompeii, where there's some ancient Greek temples, Doric temples, Teahira. And they actually have the actors climbing on one of these temples. They wouldn't be able to do it today. And they put a big net over it and it's not CGI. It's a real net. The harpies are CGI or not CGI, they're claymation. And they actually catch the harpies with this net. In Apollonia, this is where Zetes and Callias, the flying sons of Boreus come in. And they chase the harpies and they fly after them with their swords, all the way going west, west, west, west, west

• 38:21Speaker 02

  to some islands called the Strophades, which are little islands off the left-hand side of Greece, which is the west. And where Aeneas will go. And that's Where he's gonna meet the harpies later on. So they get to stop there and Strophades actually means turning, the turning, because that's where Zetes and Callias turn around and fly back with the Argonauts. So they've chased away the harpies and they're different versions of the harpies and what they're like and Rufinius was and everything. That's huge fun.

• 38:55Tristan Hughes?

  So that's the next big one. So so far we've had the killer women on the Isle of Lemnos, Sisyphus in the Sea of Marmara and before that, the clashing rocks. The next stage from there, is there much more before they reach Colchis or is it quite a straight road once they get there?

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Let's jump to Colchis and of course, they arrive at Colchis, which is the end of the world. And there are various ways where they meet Medea, but in most of them, I'm afraid the gods have a part to play and make her fall in love with him so that she will help him. Now at Colchis, the king of Colchis is Aetes, the king with too many Es in his name, A E E T E S, too many Es. And he's the father of a couple of daughters and a son named Absyrtus and Medea's the youngest and she's a priestess of Hecate. She's a sorceress, a witch.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  She's very young in Apollonius and quite vulnerable and very sympathetic. And she falls in love with Jason, so she's very torn about whether she should be loyal to support him or her father and Ovid does this a lot too, because Ovid in his Metamorphoses really gets into Medea's head. And I think we were talking before that she, as soon as Medea appears, all the focus goes on her and away from poor Jason. She's often so, she's so much more fascinating than Jason, who's quite bland at times.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  She falls in love with Jason because of his beauty. And Aetes says, "Okay, you can have the golden fleece, but you must do this task. You must harness my bronze, two bronze bulls with breath fire and sew some dragon's teeth. And if you can do that, I'll let you have the fleece." And of course, it's an impossible task, except that Medea gives him some special anointing oil to put on himself and his weapons to protect him from the flames. And he's able to harness the fire-breathing bulls and sew the teeth, which go back to Cadmus, way back in Cadmus. Whole other story. The movie does a very clever thing.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  It has him kill the dragon, which doesn't happen in Apollonius, and then use those dragon's teeth to sew them. And of course, that's when these wonderful skeleton warriors pop up out of the ground. But in most versions, most of the ancient versions, he has to do the plowing of the teeth first. And then Aetes says he'll give him the fleece. But Aetes does not give him the fleece. So he's got to get it by another method. Now, you'd expect him to be a brave soldier, or rather, not soldier, but warrior, and use his sword to kill the dragon and everything. The snake, Drachma, means the same thing. And it's described as being as big as the Argo. So this is not your ordinary snake or dragon.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  It's a snake as big as the Argo. Yep. What he does is Medea just uses a charm to put it to sleep, which is a little bit anticlimactic. And again, in the film, they make it a hydra, and he stabs the hydra and kills it that way. He gets the fleece, and now he's gonna go home. So that happened pretty quickly, actually. Yes. A lot of it is the traveling there. And then they get there, and it's slightly anticlimactic. Except a lot of it's in Medea's head, her torturous inner debate about what she should do. And that's, of course, what makes it so fascinating and her so fascinating.

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• 43:50Tristan Hughes?

  You've highlighted the point there then Caroline. Is it the fact that actually one of the most, if not the fascinating part of the whole Jason and the Argonauts story, is their journey there and their journey back. I mean, getting to the Kingdom of Colchis and what he does there. Yes, it's pivotal to the story and the retrieving of the golden fleece. But as you say, it's not slaying the monster. It's Medea helping him, putting him, putting it to sleep. And then I guess it's their returning from what is present day Georgia. It's that area of the world, isn't it, the Kingdom of Colchis? So they've got a long way to get back after that.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  They've got a long way to get back. And as you're exactly right, it's not the thing they get. It's not the fleece, the MacGuffin, the magic potion, you know, the sword, whatever, the princess. It's the journey that's important and what the hero learns and who he meets and who he fights and who he falls in love with and who he loses and who he mourns that's important. And again, he'll come back to the, he comes back to the same place at the end. And then again, if you look at that wonderful map of his journey, he's going all over the place, including many across land. And so they're now, they're warned by an oracle, don't go back the way you came. So they decide to go by a different route. So they sail up the Danube.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  They go up the Danube.

• 45:08Tristan Hughes?

  Okay.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  All the way across, whatever those are called, the Balkans or whatever. To the sea on the right of Italy, which is, I believe, called the Adriatic.

• 45:18Tristan Hughes?

  The Adriatic, yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, you've got your boot of Italy. They go to that bit there, the Adriatic. That's where they pop out. And their pursuers, Aetes takes, according to Apollonius, Aetes takes half the Colchian fleet and follows, goes back the way Jason came. But Absurtus, the younger brother, takes half the fleet and follows Jason all across the Danube. And when they get to the Adriatic Sea, this is where, in Apollonius's version, Medea lures Absurtus to a talk, and Jason kills him. And then when he's dead, they go and kill everybody on his ship. And the rest of the fleet are so discouraged that they decide to not go home and just settle there.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  And they're called, that place is called the Absurtian Islands or something like that. Again, another etiological. How did these people from the Black Sea get to this part of near Italy? In Apollodorus's version, he's also writing in Greek that at the end of the first century AD, he's the one who tells how Medea chops up her brother, takes him with him on the ship, chops him up in bits and tosses him in the sea. So her father, who's pursuing them, stops to pick up the bits. So there are different variations on how Absurtus is used as a kind of terrible distraction.

• 46:38Tristan Hughes?

  So is this the beginning of the story almost? And now that Medea's on board, I'm guessing it's part of the the kind of creation of the story. This idea that on the return journey, it's no longer Jason as this wonderful figure, this hero to admire. This is someone that starts getting a bit more, and I guess it's thanks to Medea and how they portray it, a bit more repulsive in the actions that they do. And this idea, I'm guessing that they're going to get their comeuppance soon because of the, the, the, well, the horrific actions that they've taken. I'd say first of all, the killing of a sibling. And second of all, the kind of, in some cases, the splitting up of the body. So the burial rites will be so,

• 47:21Tristan Hughes?

  will be more tricky and it's an abuse of the dead. Is this all coming to a head at the moment?

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Absolutely right. They start off with the most noble of motives and they deteriorate as they go along the way. And Jason, again, is often shown to be indecisive in Apollonius's version. And we also, as you say, get this focus on some of the other characters like Medea or on some of the other heroes who, again, have an etiological function to perform. But this is a terrible thing they've done. It's such a terrible thing. Killing ordinary people is bad, but killing your own flesh and blood is a point to the gods and they need purification. So they're now told that they need to go to see Circe

• 48:07Speaker 02

  on her island and that she will cleanse them from purification. So this is quite surprising. Circe's the witch, of course, who had Odysseus on her island for quite a while and did lots of fun things with him. But she is now the one who can purify them. So they've now got to go to the home of Circe, somewhere off the western coast of Italy. So that's another one of the tropes, the cleansing of Absirtus's murder by Jason and Medea. They then sail up the river Ereadamus, which is the Po, and then they go over the Alps somehow. Don't ask me how. Down, down the Rhone, the Rhone River, and then down by

• 48:52Speaker 02

  the Tyrrhenian Sea, that's where they meet Circe, according to Apollonius. Then they're going down to the home of the sirens, which is down on the shin of Italy, again, in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Then they go through Skila and Charybdis, and they go up to Drapane. I'm looking at the map here because there's no other way to understand it. Drapane is, again, near Albania or maybe Corfu. Then they sail down to Sirtes, and that's how they get to North Africa. They get blown off course. And that's where Jason meets three nymphs, the guardians of Libya, and he's instructed to carry the Argo across the desert.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  And then they go to Lake Triton, which is where they meet Triton, the son of Poseidon, who reveals a secret passage back to the sea. We're almost done here. You'll be glad to hear the end is in sight. Now we get one of the best bits, where they go to Crete and they meet Thalos, the bronze man. And he is amazing. And in the film, Jason and the Argonauts, he appears at the very beginning. And there's this amazing scene of, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but he's like this giant bronze crouching statue on a treasure house. And when Heracles steals a golden pin, his head turns with a horrible metallic creaking and he gets down off his plinth

• 50:21Speaker 02

  and follows them like, if you can imagine the Colossus of Rhodes, a great gigantic bronze statue clomping after tiny ant-like men. It's absolutely brilliant, chilling, fantastic. And in the film, Jason conquers him by unplugging a plug in his heel and letting out the ichor, the magic juice or blood. But in Apollonia, he's vanquished by Medea, who from a distance from the ship, gives him the evil eye, using magical incantations and calling down spirits of death. And she uses her eye beams and curses him.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  And he then scratches his vulnerable ankle vein on a rock and the ichor flows out. He crashes to the ground like a great pine coming down at night on the top of a mountain. So he's a wonderful character, Thalos, who's, there are different origins for him. One is that Hephaestus made him. And I like the origin that he's made to guard the island of Crete, which he can run around three times each day. And he even appears on Coins of Crete, this giant bronze man. So he's huge fun. We only have one more thing to happen before they get home. And that's this really spooky

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Kind of incident where after they leave Crete, this terrible darkness comes down upon them. And they can't see where they are. And it's it's the worst darkness. It's like worse than death. And Jason and his men pray to Apollo, who lights the night with his flashing arrows until dawn comes. And they find themselves on this little island and they're nearly home. And finally, they get home.

• 52:11Tristan Hughes?

  To mainland Greece. What adventure that is.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Guess how long that whole journey takes?

• 52:17Tristan Hughes?

  How long?

• 52:17Speaker 02

  According to Apollodorus, our latest source, four months. Pretty amazing. I think it'd be fun to do that, to actually follow in the steps of Jason. And it would probably take you about four months to do that, stopping along all those wonderful places.

• 52:32Tristan Hughes?

  Once again, very quickly, because I've now got the map in front of me, trying to get my head around it. Yeah, it starts in the Yorcas, goes through the Hellespont. Then there's the clashing rocks near Byzantium, modern day Istanbul, going along the southern shoreline of the Black Sea. Ending up at Colchis, modern day Georgia, gets the golden fleece. Then around the north part of the Black Sea, past Crimea, up the river Danube, somehow making it to the Adriatic Sea. I don't think you can do that today, can you? Ending up in the Adriatic Sea, then turning around after the killing of Medea's brother, the son of the king. Ieetes, the man with too many As in his name, no, too many Es in his name.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Too many Es in his name.

• 53:14Tristan Hughes?

  Goes up the river Po in northern Italy, does a Hannibal by crossing the Alps, down the river Rhone in southern France. Past Corsica, past Liguria, places like Genoa today. Down the western coast of Italy, the Tyrrhenian Sea, where you meet Circe and the sirens as well. Then through that strait, the Strait of Messenia, between Sicily and the toe of Italy. Corfu, then ending up in North Africa in Libya, Tunisia, Morocco that way. Finally, Crete with Talos that you've mentioned, Caroline. And that last kind of spooky venture before returning to mainland Greece. Have I been able to summarize the geography loosely there of the whole Argonaut story?

• 53:59Speaker 02

  You've done it brilliantly. It's essentially a Mediterranean tour, isn't it?

• 54:04Tristan Hughes?

  It is, it is, isn't it? Central Mediterranean and Black Sea.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  And Black Sea, yeah, absolutely.

• 54:10Tristan Hughes?

  I wish we could talk more and more about what happens to Jason after this, because this is an important part of the story, isn't it? But this is where Medea really comes to the fore and we could do a whole another episode on Medea's story. But can you wrap up what happens at the end when he finally returns to Iolcus and the evil king? Does Jason, is there a reward because he's done this journey? Is there a happy ending for him?

• 54:35Speaker 02

  Not really. I think he's got to go to Corinth for some reason and he can't even have his kingdom. And of course, then that's where he meets another woman and he abandons Medea or wants to marry this other woman. And I think that's a whole other story that many people know so much better than I do. But shall I just tell you about his death?

• 54:57Tristan Hughes?

  Go on then. Yes. So what is the story of his death? Is it quite gruesome?

• 55:01Speaker 02

  No, it's quite sad. He's an old man and he goes to remember his glory days. And he sits under the Argo in the shade of the Argo and a bit falls off and bonks him on the head and he dies. That's kind of how I want to go, just sitting under and bonked on the head, but I'm gone.

• 55:19Tristan Hughes?

  But it's also the ship, isn't it? The ship is right at the centre. The ship is the thing that has endured all of these adventures. The end of the day with Jason, you know, Medea has killed his children as well, hasn't she? And that's, that's another story. And he's a broken old man. As you say, it almost feels quite fitting that he dies beneath the ship that had served him so well for his most famous adventure.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's broken definitely after what happened with Medea and his own weakness. And that's a fascinating thing about the Greek heroes is they're often anti-heroes. They're like us. And that's, I think, one of the reasons that makes them so enduringly fascinating and popular.

• 55:58Tristan Hughes?

  And the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, his story and those are the people around him. Is it one that has never gone away? Is it one that has caught the attention of artists, of poets, of writers? And of course, of film directors down to the present day?

• 56:14Speaker 02

  I think it has. And I think many of these Greek myths have. But as we were saying at the beginning, this is the quintessential hero's journey with lots of adventures along the way. And lots of lessons to be learned.

• 56:27Tristan Hughes?

  Caroline, this has been fantastic. Last but certainly not least, your book, which includes the story of Jason and the Argonauts, it is called?

• 56:35Speaker 02

  It's called Pantheon, A Companion to the Greek and Roman Gods and Goddesses, and it's got lots of little fun facts.

• 56:41Tristan Hughes?

  Well, there we go. Caroline, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Thank you. It's been really fun.

• 56:51Tristan Hughes?

  Well, there you go. There was Caroline Lawrence talking through the many amazing adventures of Jason and the Argonauts. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you would like more of Caroline, then do check out our earlier interview we did with her last year, all about the Minotaur. That was also a really fun chat. And don't you worry, we'll cover the end of Jason's story in another episode in the future, exploring figures like Medea in the detail that a character like her definitely deserves. But that is for another episode. In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch

• 57:36Tristan Hughes?

  hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com/subscribe. Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at @AncientsTristan. That's enough from me, and I'll see you in the next episode.

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• 58:24Tristan Hughes?

  And Jack hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.