118: Why Do They Ghost? + How Long Should You Wait for Love to Grow? In The Trenches with Sabrina and Tech Guy

Tired of getting ghosted? Unsure how to navigate your situationship without losing your mind? Welcome to the new bonus series, "In The Trenches," where Sabrina and guests break down real-life dating dilemmas and relationship dynamics in a lighter, community-driven format. This series is all about addressing your burning questions and helping you make sense of modern dating chaos. In this debut episode with Tech Guy (Ryan), Sabrina highlights the pivotal role of curiosity and open communication in managing anxiety and understanding a partner’s behavior, particularly when navigating concepts like "going slow." Ryan complements this by emphasizing the importance of providing space and avoiding defensive reactions, especially when engaging with avoidant individuals. Together, they unpack how recognizing and addressing personal triggers can lead to mature and constructive dialogue, fostering healthier relationships. Want to share your stories? Send in your dating questions and stories to [email protected] and include screenshots or other pertinent information for context. Send in your dating profile for the chance of an on air review to help you understand how you are presenting yourself to strangers on the internet. Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hosts Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department, ever, so carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  I don't know what I'm doing.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  Need a break. Forget it, I quit. Escape to Pluto TV.

• 0:34Sabrina Zohar?

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free. Shwing! Even our news is uplifting. You stay classy, San Diego. Watch Tommy Boy, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more. We're not worthy! The best things on TV really are free.

• 0:53Speaker 04

  You just have to know where to look.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 0:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. You guys, welcome to a very special first episode. Well, obviously not of the show, but of our new series, In the Trenches. Because like, I love our Friday show, I love our conversations, but I really wanted to add some levity, I wanted to add some fun, I wanted us to have different conversations and help you guys with the stuff that you're actually dealing with day to day. Because of course, we can heal, we can do all those things, but you guys have questions, you need the advice, so we are here to help. So guys, now, we need your help. Send in your screenshots, send in your stories, send us in like, hey, here's what's going on, here's the background, I've known this person for this long, here's the, here are

• 1:43Sabrina Zohar?

  the screenshots, I don't know what to do, need your help. Send us in your dating profile, so that we could do an audit. We will blur out your face, privacy is very important to us, so please don't worry about us blasting anybody, everything you guys send us, we're just gonna keep anonymous and we'll just share the stories. Your profile potentially will be featured, but we will blur out your face. So if you guys want to submit a dating profile, you don't want to pay for an audit, send it on in, we'll do it on air, and we will blur it out and just protect your privacy. But guys, we're here to do this for you. Some weeks You'll have me, some weeks you'll have me in tech, guys, some weeks you'll have me with somebody else. And the point of this is for us to have some goddamn fun, because I love this community and I love helping you guys and I really want to connect on a deeper level. So please, submit all your stuff, whether it's on the Stan store where all my stuff is, and you can submit a story at the end, or you just email in the trenches at sabrina zohar.com.

• 2:28Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm gonna be a broken record every episode reminding you guys, because this episode will only be as good as the content you guys give us to help you. So guys, thank you for everything. Thank you for supporting. Thank you for rating and reviewing the show. Don't forget to send it to a friend. Resubscribe to your auto downloads. Apple and Spotify have changed things, so make sure that you are up to date on all the new episodes. Please, please follow along on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, rate and review the show. And just, like I said, share it with a friend. It helps us grow and it helps us continue to be able to create this incredible community that we have. Guys, if you need anything, everything will be in the show notes. You can join a course, you can get some free guides. There's something for everybody, so check it out. The new nervous system course is out and it's fucking awesome. And I'm just grateful to be here with you guys. So guys, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

• 3:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, hey babe.

• 3:24Speaker 05

  Oh, hi, sweetie.

• 3:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, your tech guy is back, guys. And truthfully speaking, guys, we were doing the bonus episodes and we were loving it. It was so much fun. We were having a good time. People were loving the episodes, but it felt wrong only having a limited amount of people being able to have access to this material. And so that's why we came to the decision that it's time for this to be, we're not, we're not gatekeeping anymore. We want to help you guys when you need it. So we are here to help and I'm just so excited. So, welcome back, babe.

• 3:51Speaker 05

  Oh, excited to be here. Are you upset that your Spice Girls shirt is being covered up by the mic?

• 3:56Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so devastated. You guys know how I feel about my band tees. I'm so proud. This one was like probably one of my favorites and Little Sab is so excited. Yeah, I'm gutted. But babe, I'm really excited to have you back, because I think you offer such a really unique perspective as just a different person, a different mindset, somebody that, truthfully, most of us date, somebody with just a different way of dealing with things. And I think-

• 4:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Point checkmate. And I think, you know, being able to offer something different is going to be really helpful. So I'm super stoked and I'm excited. So should we dive on into a question?

• 4:30Speaker 05

  Let's get right on in.

• 4:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's get right on in. Okay. So she said, hi, I follow you and absolutely love you. But for some context, I'm in the green, he's in the white. I just desperately need reaffirmation. Okay. Just so you guys know, moving forward, more info, always appreciated. Like, let us know because we're going to read this text chain. We don't have any background context. So there's a lot of nuance missing, but let's have some fucking fun, shall we?

• 4:53Speaker 05

  Let's do it. Let's fill in the black and white.

• 4:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Fill in, let's make some gray. Hey, I don't really know how to bring this up, or if I even should, but I've been getting this feeling of distance more and more and just wanted to check in with you. If, if you wanted me to just leave you alone, I totally will if you want. It's all good. I just don't want to assume you want me to continue reaching out if you're not into it. I know you have hard stuff going on with your mom and in your life, and I get it, no hard feelings. I just don't want to be bugging you and you don't want it. And I'm thinking, maybe you're just being too nice to say it.

• 5:19Speaker 05

  I don't know the right response to that. I enjoy hanging out with you. I obviously am really turned on by you, but I just can't get past the reality of it. You live a totally different life in a totally different place than I do. I'm not planning on coming over there anytime soon. If anything, I'm especially not coming in the next little while. And I'm so alone and living my own day to day thing that you coming here is hard for me. Believe me, I enjoy it. It's just all so hard to have, or it's also hard to have someone else to consider. I'm not sure what I'm doing tomorrow. I'm even considering running away to Portugal on Thursday, if there's a good airline mile flight. This is a long way of saying that it's probably for the best. I don't want you wondering if I'm going to text you or if you shouldn't text. That said, I don't mind if you say hi every now and again. I hope

• 6:03Speaker 05

  this is coming off the way I'm intending.

• 6:05Sabrina Zohar?

  No problem. I just needed some clarity so I can let you go. Take care of yourself. I really wish you all the best in life.

• 6:10Speaker 05

  I'm sorry. I never wanted to cause you any pain. You're so sweet to me and I've really enjoyed any time that we've been together.

• 6:16Sabrina Zohar?

  Don't be sorry. You've done nothing wrong. It's been really, really fun. You'll always be my favorite, but no need to keep in touch. It'll just hurt too much. Sweet dreams.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  Okay, I'll respect that. Sleep well.

• 6:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. So obviously after reading that, we see enjoyed any time that we've been together. So we know that there is a basis, right? Okay. So here's my biggest.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  I have thoughts.

• 6:36Sabrina Zohar?

  I have thoughts. One doesn't she have thoughts? I have, you know what, fuck it. Why am I going for it? Babe, talk to me. What did you notice out of this?

• 6:44Speaker 05

  I really did not like the lack of power in her original statement, that she was couching it in all of these qualifiers that didn't need to be there. Instead of saying, is this of interest to you? And do you want to continue? It was couched in all of these qualifiers that she was looking for some sort of reaffirmation and wanting him to choose her.

• 7:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Agreed, because I've sent this text a million times. Like, you guys know, when we're talking about this stuff, like, we're not helping you if we don't point stuff out, right? Like, if we're just like, oh, yeah, great job. Because off the bat, I am so excited that you spoke up. Like, Jenny, fuck, yes. Like, good on you. I'm so happy that you said something, especially like, if this is something that you felt, like, I am here. I'm always a fan of gaining clarity, because what's the point otherwise, right? But I think to Tech Guy's point, the way that it came, I've... Oh, my God, I've sent this text to me. I was like, oh, my God, well, I don't want to bother you. Like, if you're busy, like, that's totally cool. Like, I don't need to bug you. And it's like, what I get from this is just insecurity. There is a core belief that, what, like, you're a burden? You're annoying them, you're bugging them. No, no, no, you're too busy. I'm just here. And it's like, no, baby.

• 7:49Sabrina Zohar?

  You're an amazing woman. Man, they, I don't really care who you are. You're an amazing person. And as an amazing person, you're not a burden to somebody because you have a need and you want clarity. And so I think that's the first thing to look at, is it's not... Remember, it's never like the message a lot of times, it's the delivery, right? And it's not like, again, it's not good or bad. This isn't about that. What it really is, is I'm sensing an insecurity coming from this, that this core belief is driving the car on the messaging. My other concern here is, when the fuck were you guys talking? Right? Like, who... Okay, because what I hear is what you and I have talked about extensively in the past. Like, I can't get past the reality of it, because long distance is great for people that are not actually ready for a committed relationship.

• 8:33Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 8:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Because it's a fantasy. You're able to create this entire fantasy of what this is going to be and what's happening. He said, my mom, or she said, like, you know, you have a lot going on with your mom, or whatever, like, he's got some stuff happening. And like, I remember when my mom was sick and she was in the hospital, I was texting a bunch of dudes, because I need to... The escape. We were all, it was very clear that this wasn't turning into anything. Some of them didn't even live there or they, you know, were different cities, whatever. But I really desperately just needed to take my mind off of what I was dealing with. And for me, it worked out because we were having these fantasy conversations and no one was ever talking about it becoming reality. Right?

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 9:06Sabrina Zohar?

  And I was also very clear of letting them know, like, hey, I'm emotionally unavailable. Like, this isn't going to be something. But I think that's my thing is like, so we've spent time together. We've obviously had some times with this person. And now it's coming out of like, oh, by the way, like, you know, this isn't something I can actually do. You're not coming here. I'm not going there. And for me, that's why when we talk about long distance, the number one fucking thing I'll say to you guys is like, what is the reality? Who's going back and forth?

• 9:30Speaker 05

  What's your end game?

• 9:31Sabrina Zohar?

  What's your end game? Who's moving?

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 9:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Who has the money to go back and forth? Do you have the bandwidth, the time, the resources? If you have kids, are you able to get away? Right? If you have a job, can you do it remotely? Because oftentimes, a lot of people that'll go on to long distances.

• 9:47Sabrina Zohar?

  There's an escapism aspect of it.

• 9:49Speaker 05

  Yep, I couldn't agree more. There was one piece at the end that really stood out to me. She said, you'll always be my favorite, but no need to keep in touch. It'll just hurt too much. Sweet dreams. Again, just giving away your power in that statement. And it didn't seem like it was coming from a place of security. It seemed like still wanting him to choose her, but not knowing how to accurately communicate that.

• 10:12Sabrina Zohar?

  I have been there. Like, I have said that where you're just so good and you're like, okay, well, like if anything changes, like, please don't hesitate to reach out. But like, you're trying to get this person to then.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  It's like responding to a marketing email.

• 10:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. But it's like, you know what it reminds me of is like this, this fantasy that someone's going to come save you. That like, if you just tell someone like, I'm really hurt and all this, that he's going to just suddenly be like, you're right. I, I don't want to do this. This is a huge mistake. Like, let's be together. And it's like, no, instead he was like, okay, I'll respect that. Take care.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 10:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's like, oh, so I'm with you 100%. Like, I am stoked that there was a conversation. I'm really, really happy that there was something that was talked about because I think that's really important. But this is also like, and here's the thing, let me also say Jenny handled it beautifully, the response. Like, I think she handled it with grace of like, hey, thank you for telling me.

• 10:56Speaker 05

  Couldn't agree more.

• 10:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Like, it's, this is us just nitpicking at this point to be like, hey, reclaim your power.

• 11:02Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 11:02Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, like, babe, have you gotten messages like this from women?

• 11:04Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:05Sabrina Zohar?

  If you could tell.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I would have been. More direct in my response than homeboy, but it would have been similar messaging. I also never found myself in long distance relationships, so I wouldn't have been in this specific situation, but I've gotten very similar texts.

• 11:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, and I'm also, I have so many questions about that. I agree with you too. I think his text shows us how jumbled he is, right? Like, it shows us he's all over the place. Like, I might go to Portugal, and you're like, man, this dude doesn't even know what fucking day it is, does he?

• 11:37Speaker 05

  No.

• 11:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's okay. Like, no one in this situation, like, this is a beautiful example that no one's good or bad. There's no-

• 11:44Speaker 05

  This just doesn't work for you guys.

• 11:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. Like, there's no what an asshole, or what a dickhead. It's like, no, because I also think that we need to have an element of reality that part of dating means that, like, it might not work out. There's a probability it won't more than there's a probability that it will, because it takes one.

• 11:58Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 11:58Sabrina Zohar?

  If you needed more than just one, we'd have a polyamory, right? But if you're in a monogamous relationship, it's one and one, so it takes one person that this works out with. So, overall, Jenny, really fucking stoked that you followed your gut. I'm happy that you had this conversation. Now, of course, would I want it on the phone? Yeah, that would be nice, but like, not the end of the world. And I would just say, moving forward, one, when you guys are going to be doing long distance, take your rose colored glasses off, right? Like, especially when it's just very, like, especially when you're like, wow, yeah, well, they're more avoidant, so I don't want to say anything, and I don't want to push, let me just give them their space. And it's like, there's, there's a difference between, actually, babe, can you take this away? Because you and I were talking about, there's a difference between avoidant attachment, and there's a difference between an avoidant personality disorder.

• 12:43Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 12:44Sabrina Zohar?

  And I would love just your thoughts. And like, for anybody who's unsure, like, tech guy studied psychology in school and worked in this field. So, like, this is coming from somebody who actually understands the terminology, and I'm, I'm gonna take this moment.

• 12:55Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, avoidant attachment style is only when you're triggered, and responding in a way in which you would to a caregiver. Avoidant personality disorder is predominantly in any other facet. And so, if they are not triggered and very avoidant, then that's most likely not an attachment style.

• 13:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Totally. And then the other aspect, too, is like, what, this guy, he just sounds emotionally unavailable. He just sounds like, and he's saying that, like-

• 13:20Speaker 05

  He's being very direct with that.

• 13:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, like, and that's, there's nothing wrong with this, because I think, you know, people always ask, like, what does bandwidth mean? And it's like, bandwidth is like, the mental capacity to handle something.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 13:30Sabrina Zohar?

  And I think often it's like, oh, but, but I'm amazing, and why won't he? It's like, because he doesn't have it.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 13:35Sabrina Zohar?

  I've been there.

• 13:37Speaker 05

  I've been there.

• 13:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like when I, after Clem passed, like I, I didn't really have the bandwidth for a lot, but I was like, I can show up in a little bit of capacity, which worked out for both of us because you were a little bit more avoidant leaning. And so it was like, oh, okay. It allowed me the space to process and do what I needed to do, but it allowed you the space to become more comfortable and us to grow something.

• 13:53Speaker 05

  Very true.

• 13:54Sabrina Zohar?

  So I would just suggest like, you know, listen, if you've been dating this person and they were blowing hot smoke up your ass and telling you all these things and it's like, and then this happens, like it, welcome to life, right? But I think I have a sneaking suspicion that this dynamic that perhaps it just wasn't communicated, that you guys just kept hanging out and I really like you and like, let's just see where this goes, blah, blah. But there wasn't necessarily an intentionality because when it comes to long distance, there needs to be an intentionality because like he said, the reality of this is what I'm struggling with.

• 14:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. And rightly so.

• 14:24Sabrina Zohar?

  I've definitely had that where I'm like, oh, it's only like a three hour drive or it's only a flight. And you're like, that's cute until it's not anymore. Until you're like, oh.

• 14:31Speaker 05

  LA is two hours away from us and we complain every time we have to drive up there.

• 14:34Sabrina Zohar?

  Time. It's true. But it's because like, again, in, in theory, you're like, oh, I could totally do that. Until the day comes and you're like, I have a stomach ache. I have a headache. I didn't get sleep last night. Like, I don't feel like dealing with this today.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  This can be five hour round trip.

• 14:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. And so it's just about, you know, understanding like nuance in dating.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Host Thanksgiving with industry leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are no antibiotics in their meat department ever. So carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 15:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. Next question, shall we?

• 15:23Speaker 05

  Let's get right on into it.

• 15:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's go. Hey, Sabrina, I was hoping for some advice. I'm a lesbian and I've been dating a woman for three months. We are both looking for a long-term relationship, but she is very cautious and told me she wants to go slow. She went through a traumatic divorce about a year ago and she said she is dating with intention to make sure we are right for each other. I do respect that because I'm also divorced because of my wife cheated on me. But I have an anxious attachment and it makes it difficult to go slow because of the uncertainty. We've had conversations and we're trying to navigate this stuff. She leans more avoidant in my past relationships. I have around this time decided that my partner to take the step back. I guess my question is, what can I do for myself to make this easier and how long should I wait? I listened to both you and Jillian. You're both great and have helped me. Shout out. What's up, Jillian? And, and your name is Jillian too. So hi, both my Jillians. Um, okay. Babe, I'm always curious. I'll give you, because I talk a lot, so I don't need me.

• 16:09Sabrina Zohar?

  What are you here when you hear that?

• 16:10Speaker 05

  Anxiety.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  And I don't really have a lot of experience with anxious attachment, so I don't really have a specific guidance based off of lived experience, so I would defer that part to you.

• 16:25Sabrina Zohar?

  I think here's my issue. Why are we blaming your anxious attachment on this?

• 16:28Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 16:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like, that's my, that's my concern.

• 16:30Speaker 05

  Reason or excuse.

• 16:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you. You know, it's one thing to say, like, because of my upbringing, somebody being inconsistent is really triggering to me, and I'm working on that stuff, but I'm trying to navigate the waters. Totally get that.

• 16:40Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 16:40Sabrina Zohar?

  But it feels like, like, well, I have anxious attachment, so like, going slow is hard. And it's like, so that's a muscle that we need to work, right? Like, then that means, so that's where the work lies, right, is?

• 16:49Speaker 05

  Sit in that discomfort.

• 16:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. Sit in that discomfort of, okay, like, my partner leans more avoidant, so she needs a little bit more space when she gets triggered. And like, again, that's why we talked about this earlier, is like, my partner, like, somebody who is really, like, significantly more avoidant in how they attach to people, doesn't mean that in day to day, he's completely avoidant of me and with me. That means when certain things trigger him, like, deep emotions, or specific conversations, or talking about specific emotions especially, will trigger him. I mean, I'm talking for you.

• 17:18Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 17:18Sabrina Zohar?

  You want to take it from here?

• 17:20Speaker 05

  No, I think you're on the right track.

• 17:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Perfect. Will trigger him to just shut down.

• 17:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:24Sabrina Zohar?

  And, and I'd be curious, babe, is that because I'm too much? Or is that because the emotion makes you uncomfortable?

• 17:29Speaker 05

  Makes me uncomfortable. It really has nothing to do with you.

• 17:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you. And the reason I ask that is not because it's for me, it's for you guys to hear from the horse's mouth, that somebody with an avoidant attachment style isn't that there's something wrong with you and I'm too much. What ends up happening is that's our core belief that gets triggered.

• 17:45Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 17:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Because now, when he shuts down, I don't go into, I'm too much. I go into, hey, what's coming up for you?

• 17:51Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And, you know, I also have to grow in that discomfort and learn how to communicate with you through those times of internal discomfort. And instead of shutting down, actually be able to communicate to you. But that also requires time and space, like this partner that you're trying to build a relationship is asking for.

• 18:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And I think, here's my thing with going slow. Again, it's not an excuse for bad behavior. This doesn't just mean that, like, oh, we just, like, never talk, or like, we text once a month. It's like, no, no, no. The point of going slow is to see, like she said, I had a traumatic, you know, my divorce was traumatic, and it ended like, huh huh. She also had trauma.

• 18:31Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 18:31Sabrina Zohar?

  And what I'm hearing there is like, there's more of an attachment happening than a connection of like, boy, are you gonna leave me? Are you gonna abandon me? But you need the space? What is going slow? I don't like to sit slow. I want to know what's happening. And it's like, I'm gonna say something that's probably a dickhead thing to say. That is why you guys get into relationships with people that will cheat on you or do stuff, because it's not about who is this person? Am I genuinely getting to know them? Am I really seeing that this is the right person for me? Now, again, that's not me blaming anybody. No one deserves to be cheated on. That has nothing to do with it. But two conflicting thoughts can hold, well, fuck, I didn't really know this person, or I rushed into it. I really wanted that safety. I just didn't want the unknown anymore. And then shit, we ended up actually not really even knowing each other. And then this person was unfaithful to me behind my back. Right? Because maybe they had their own insecurities and their

• 19:16Sabrina Zohar?

  shit. And I didn't see that in the beginning. There's not anything to blame, but it's just about looking and being like, oh, my part in this is X, Y, and Z. And so, again, and by the way, Gillian, I am so sorry that your wife cheated on you. That is not acceptable, and that's not okay. And you do deserve better. So I'm happy that you made that decision to move on with your life and say, this doesn't work for me.

• 19:36Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 19:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Fuck, yeah, kudos to you. But I don't want you to repeat the same shit by just rushing into something and going head on. And this isn't just because...

• 19:44Speaker 05

  Well, then, she will continue to, so long as she doesn't actually take the antidote. And the antidote is curiosity. Because what she didn't say is, I then asked a follow-up question. What does going slow look like to you? There was no probing or digging to further understand that experience, so that there could be a mutual understanding.

• 20:05Sabrina Zohar?

  That's a great point. And I think, you know, the question is, what can I do for myself to make this easier? And how long should I wait? Well, how long you should wait is, that's not for me to decide.

• 20:14Speaker 05

  No.

• 20:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like, for, for some people, like, we are still going slow, and we're two years into our relationship. Because for me, but here's the thing, we communicate consistently. We don't, it's not like we're just going slow and then we just don't have conversations for six months and then all of a sudden it's like, what? But like, why aren't we doing this? We are consistently having conversations of like, how are you feeling about this? Are we at this pay? Hey, here's where I'm feeling. Here's the areas of opportunity. Here are still the things that we need to work on for us to move to this level. Because I'm very cognizant for me to get married to somebody, for me to make that decision and bring somebody into my life and let the government make those decisions as well, means that I need to be pretty goddamn sure that this is something that will work for both of us. And it takes time because you have to see people in different environments to determine if that's right for you.

• 20:56Speaker 05

  Couldn't agree more.

• 20:57Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm not saying it has to take you two years. It could take as long as you want. So the how long should I wait would be contingent upon the questions you're asking.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 21:04Sabrina Zohar?

  So if you're getting curious and asking her, so what does going slow mean? If she says, listen, I'm really traumatized from my relationship. All I'm saying is I just don't want to be in a relationship after three months. Can you give me four or five for like us to spend more time together? Okay. Right?

• 21:16Speaker 05

  Yep. And then that also allows you to feel more connected to that person and have a better understanding and quell some of the anxiety that's at least seemingly navigating the ship right now.

• 21:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Because when then, so what can I do for myself to make this easier? Hence why Masha and I created the nervous system course.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 21:34Sabrina Zohar?

  This is the exact reason we created it is like, hey, I'm feeling this anxiety. It's like, cool. What's happening in your nervous system? What's going on? Where is the curiosity internally? Because the reality is like, sure, the option could be stop dating her. Okay. Right? That is a reality of like, hey, if this is too much and you're like, no, my nervous system can't handle it. But what I look at here is how can I, how can I grow my nervous system? How can I grow my window of tolerance? Right?

• 21:58Speaker 05

  Yep, absolutely. And it really navigate the unknown. That's what it seems like the issue is right now, that there's a lot of unknown and how does she be able to navigate through that without triggering her anxiety quite a bit?

• 22:17Speaker 05

  The problem is your anxiety is probably going to be triggered quite a bit. You have to learn how to sit through that discomfort and then get curious in those moments instead of just assuming.

• 22:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent like there's a lot of stuff ice baths. I talk about this all the time. I fucking hate them. I will avoid them like the plague, but we're getting one like we're trying to get one so that I can force myself to do things that make me uncomfortable so I can expand my window of tolerance. So it's not just two seconds in there and I hop out because I don't like it. No, I can sit through this. I could breathe through it. I can find new techniques. And then what happens is my resistance and my resilience in my brain. I go, wait, I can do this. Wait, this is really good for me.

• 22:53Speaker 05

  Creating new neural pathways.

• 22:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. And, you know, what we have to be cognizant of is like, that takes time.

• 22:59Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 22:59Sabrina Zohar?

  That's the number one thing that we have to remember is like creating new neural pathways. If it was that easy. I mean, then the world would be a totally different place, but our brains don't work that way.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  No, they do not.

• 23:08Sabrina Zohar?

  So Jillian, what I would advise is this, believe in yourself. Have some faith that one, let's start to look at the narrative, right? Is this anxiety? Are you creating a narrative like, are we hyper vigilant? Are we looking for, right? Like, are we scanning for safety? Are we saying, well, but, you know, but they don't, they haven't texted me and they haven't done this. It's like, are we getting onto that where there's a narrative of there's something wrong with me? They're going to leave me. I'm not good enough. I blah, blah, blah, right? Insert narrative here. And then the body sensations, right? When I get anxious, I can feel it in different parts of my body. It's very palpable versus your intuition. Something feels off. I'm just going to call them, right? Like you notice how when we have an intuition thought, it's not about what's wrong with me, blah, blah. No, it's just, hey, for my highest good, what can I do to serve myself? I'm going to have a conversation with this person.

• 23:51Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm just going to get curious and let them know, hey, you know, when you mentioned going slow, I didn't probe deeper and for that I want to take accountability and ownership. I want to get curious. What does going slow mean to you? For me, I have a lot of anxiety with the unknown. And so it would really help me to understand where you are in things and how I can support us through this to make you feel more comfortable as well to open up to me.

• 24:10Speaker 05

  I think that is exactly the right answer.

• 24:14Sabrina Zohar?

  All right. And I think like somebody, if you had more avoidance, like hearing that, how does that sound?

• 24:18Speaker 05

  I mean, it's at least giving me the space and it.

• 24:22Speaker 05

  I'm not going to say that other person wouldn't be triggered, but it's at least reducing the likelihood that they will. You're not coming at it with hostility or any of the other main hallmarks that are going to automatically cause a more avoidant person to shut down. You're at least giving them the opportunity to show up.

• 24:42Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's funny, because as we're talking about this, how often do we hear like, well, why won't the avoidant talk to me? And they always shut down. It's like, because oftentimes, we're not actually communicating. You're talking about things that bother you, but there's oftentimes, it's not processed. There's not really facts to back it up. A lot of it comes. And so that's the difference. It's like, the avoidant person, you're right, it might be frustrating that they shut down. I totally hear it. But babe, what are your frustrations with the anxious person from an avoidant perspective?

• 25:07Speaker 05

  Scatter shot. So shotgun versus rifle. You know, it's a spray and pray. I can't follow the through line. It's just all over the topic. There's no clear issue at hand. It's just here are all of my issues. Now deal with them.

• 25:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. And then the point of this is, again, perspective shifts, right? He hears me all the time be like, this is what we need from the avoidant side of things. And he hear, and I hear him of like, I understand that you have anxiety, but like, we have to remember the past becomes the present. And we can't allow our triggers to then be our partner's problem. Like, when I have a trigger from Ryan, I will talk to him and say, hey, what you did really triggered me. That's not your responsibility. Like, you are not my dad, you're not my mom. But for me, as your partner, this would really help me. And he'll do the same, like, hey, this is what I need from you. Like, if I say this, like, are you cool with that? Yeah, absolutely. So that I understand my partner. That's the point of a relationship, is get curious about each other. You're not against each other. This isn't your mom or dad, who you're hoping is going to choose you and maybe one day change. This is a grown adult that you're building something with.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 26:10Speaker 00

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• 26:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, let's go on to another one.

• 26:40Speaker 05

  Let's do it.

• 26:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Been trying out dating apps for the first time since losing large amounts of weight. Been ghosted for the for a third time during what seemed like really great texting phase. I realized texting isn't dating and nobody owes anyone anything at that point, but don't understand how guys can go from enthusiastically texting on a regular basis, just falling off the face of the earth on one day. Don't worry, we'll get to it. This last one, I sent a second text after not hearing back for a few days to see if everything was okay and said if he's just no longer interested, that was cool. He could just tell me, no response, but still IG friends and he's looking at my stories, which frustrates me. I can't help but feel like the ghosting is because men find out I used to be overweight. I don't have any pictures of myself from then on IG, but I suppose there are always they can find out. I guess I have a few questions about this. One, why do people have so little respect for each other to ghost like that? And we're middle aged, not some stupid young kids. Shouldn't people by 45 know better than

• 27:26Sabrina Zohar?

  that? Two, do you think I need to be disclosing early on that I used to be overweight in case this turn that's a turn off for guys? It's a big insecurity of mine, so I'd rather wait until I'm more comfortable with someone to talk about it, but it is, but is it a big enough, big enough thing that it would be disclosed so that men wouldn't be mad that I wasted their time when they eventually find out? Three, I've also never been married, no kids, and really never dated much before. I know a lot of men find that a red flag, especially at my age. Any suggestions? I have a lot of thoughts. My first one is, there is so much projection happening.

• 27:54Speaker 05

  Correct. Let's, before we get to that, this is not ghosting.

• 28:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you.

• 28:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you. Okay, so let's talk about that because what's happening here is this is not real. First of all, you don't even know if these are real people.

• 28:08Speaker 05

  Correct. Could be a bot.

• 28:09Sabrina Zohar?

  It could be a bot. It could be a catfish. I have had it so many times where I've messaged somebody like on and off and on top. He gave me a full story where he lived, what he did for a career, the fact that he was in a flight and he couldn't answer. And then he texts me after the flight and he was doing a connecting and he was doing this for like four days. We were texting and then we kept saying, oh, let's FaceTime. He would say, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm stepping into a meeting. Let's try later. Kept buying time. And then I just never heard from him again. When I said, hey, by the way, I don't think you're real. And then that was that. Never heard from him because the reality is we don't know who people are. And so the thing is, it's like, There's a lot of projection happening. Like, why do people go like that? We're not stupid kids, shouldn't 45, we know better. It's like, well, baby, I could return the same thing and go, but yet you think that texting is that you're

• 28:49Speaker 05

  A real connection.

• 28:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. Like you have anything with these people from texting? Because what I hear is that sounds more like a younger child of like, but I understand. But like they said, they liked me. And it's like, okay, I totally get that. You're right. And it might, here's the thing, you're allowed for this to bum you out. You're so allowed for this to bum you out, but then we have to look and go, what's my part in it? Right? Okay. So moving forward, I need better boundaries to not get into a texting whole thing to get so excited. Have that dopamine reward system, have my brain going on this fucking withdrawal loop, creating fantasies of who they could be and what's their tonality and what we're going to do together. I want to create boundaries for myself around that so that I don't get too excited about the texting.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 29:32Sabrina Zohar?

  That's the first thing, because a lot of people think that I'm like this Pollyanna, never text, ever. No, I equate it to the same thing as alcohol, right? If you can go out to a bar and have a drink, enjoy the drink. The alcohol is not the issue if you can responsibly manage it. But if you're someone that goes, hey, I can't, I can't, I can't look at the bottle. It's too much. Baby, thank you for acknowledging it. Now let's set some guardrails around it.

• 29:53Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 29:53Sabrina Zohar?

  The point of it is that it's not that, oh, texting is, it's like, no, no, texting is detrimental with shit like this. When we take it personally, we take it seriously, we over conflate it. And it's like, and I understand now we, sorry, before I just answer this whole thing, any thoughts?

• 30:08Speaker 05

  The one thing that I think is really important for you to keep in mind as you're going through this experience. It'd be one thing if you had met these people in person and gone on a few dates, but you have not met these people. No one owes you their time, energy or attention, and it's okay if they choose to pull away and not give a reason. That is not owed to you. And it feels like you expect that type of communication from people that you don't even know are real or that you're meeting on the internet.

• 30:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And you're saying it like, I understand, nobody owes anybody, but I don't understand how someone can go enthusiastically texting and just falling off. It's like, because it's not real.

• 30:44Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 30:44Sabrina Zohar?

  This is fantasy. I don't, I'm not trying to be a dick. It's like, But this is just what it is. I talk to people every day that are like, oh yeah, I mean, I can, I can text somebody and then they meet somebody else and then now they're texting somebody else.

• 30:55Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 30:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Or maybe he went on a date and he met someone else. Maybe this person's not real. Maybe somebody we have no idea.

• 31:00Speaker 05

  Or they're dealing with their own shit and realizing they're not ready to date. Like there's hundreds of millions of reasons and you're going to continue to have problems if you have these expectations of people in the quote unquote texting phase.

• 31:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. The second thing, do I think your weight needs to be disclosed? Baby, in what fucking world do you have to explain to somebody how you used to be? That's like me being like, I should disclose I used to be really, really anxious, but I've done a lot of work on myself and now I'm not as anxious anymore. But is that going to be a turn off to you? It's like, so I'm judged on who I was, but what I hear is like you said, this is an insecurity of mine.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  Correct. And that was palpable in the way in which the questions were framed.

• 31:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And it's again, this is with so much goddamn love. Like none of the, I, if I would be an asshole, otherwise I'd be like, no, just no, no, no, you don't need to say anything. Just keep going out there. It's like, I'm not going to sugarcoat this. I'm like, yeah, just keep putting yourself out there. It's like, no, keep putting yourself out there, but let's work on what's not working.

• 31:54Speaker 05

  Or how about a reframe? It is incredibly hard to lose one pound of fat. If you are able to do that and lose a significant amount of weight, reframe that. That is a accomplishment, not a net negative. So celebrate that fact, just spin that into a positive of your ability to have or set a goal, achieve that goal over a long period of time and make transformation change in your life. That's huge. Don't sugarcoat that and try and downplay that. Just because you were overweight doesn't mean that you are today. You have to understand and give grace to yourself for the version that you were. Otherwise you're going to continue to be that version.

• 32:33Sabrina Zohar?

  That was beautifully said. It's true. Look at that little version of you, because it's signed BB, so I'll just say B. Look at that little version of you and really look and say, I fucking love you. And you went through so much and this was your coping mechanism and you were dealing with it, but look what I did. I took control of our lives. I lost all this weight and goddamn, I'm fucking proud of myself for putting myself out there and doing this. Okay, you're 45, single, no, never had kids, no married, no kids, never married. So then maybe we talk about some vulnerability of like I if somebody says like, oh, no kids, never married. No, I was really finding myself for a while. I dropped like an insane amount of weight. I lost like a hundred and whatever, whatever it is, like a hundred pounds, 200 pounds, 500 pounds, two pounds, whatever it is. I lost a bunch of weight and I really

• 33:14Sabrina Zohar?

  committed to myself and I realized the shortcomings that I had and I realized that the relationship I wanted was only going to happen when I found myself first. And now I'm really, really stoked about another part of life, like kids, getting married and having children doesn't define who I am. But now I'm really intentional about at least having somebody I can share my life with.

• 33:34Speaker 05

  Beautifully said.

• 33:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like, we can empower ourselves. And then here's the beauty. If that person's like scoff, get fucked then. Do you think I give a shit? But like,

• 33:44Speaker 05

  That's a filtering mechanism for you.

• 33:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. But even as you had said, like, you know, they, I don't have pictures of myself, but I know that they're finding me. And it's like, no, that's, that, that's projection of like, you must not like me because of this. It's like, no, baby, you don't like yourself because of that. And that's okay. But don't put that on to other people when there's not a real.

• 34:03Speaker 05

  You have no data to back that up.

• 34:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you. We have no facts to back up that this is what's happening. So what we can look at is, oh, shit. Okay. I'm making this a bit more black and white. Let me add some gray in this. Yeah, these people, I don't know who they are. They don't know who I am. And that is really the reparenting. The little kid, right? When we go back to the amygdala, the past becomes the present. It's going to try to take over. And that's why we might say things that you're like, really? Like when I ask, I'll be like, really? The adult version, the buttoned up 45 year old adult that goes to work every day and takes care of themselves and pays their own bills and gives advice to their friends. Is that, that's really it? Because if your friend came and usually I get, no, I wouldn't say that. It's like, and that's okay. Because there's a version of you that believes that.

• 34:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 34:40Sabrina Zohar?

  And we just want to understand who's that version? And can we show them so much goddamn love? So that we can allow other people to love us. Because you're beautiful as you are, and I couldn't be prouder than you, that you lost all that weight and you did that for you. I don't care if you lost it or not. What I care about is that you did something for you. So please, like Tech Guy said, stand in that power, babe. You deserve it.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  And stop expecting everyone that you meet on the internet is going to be your forever person.

• 35:06Sabrina Zohar?

  We need to manage the expectations here on the internet dating stuff. Like, I mean, I know, like, I literally, if I still had the dating apps open, I told my friend the other day, I was like, I'll never forget looking. And this was just at one point. This doesn't include the unmatches. These are just, you remember on Hinge, you could archive people? I looked at my archives. I had 143 archived messages. I met four of them. Like, let that one sink in. I met in person four out of 143 people, less than 10%, less than 5% of the people I actually met.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 35:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And you know what? I remember when you and I, when you and I were gonna go out, I had dates with like three other people planned that week. Sacre bleu. And I was just, I couldn't do it. Like, I remember there was just something about each one of them that I was like, no, this just doesn't feel right. And I just, and like, I remember, you know what made me go out with you? The fact that you had asked if it was okay to bring Kobe after what I went through. The fact that you, that I didn't really, I didn't trauma dump, I didn't go, all I told you was like, yeah, I recently lost my dog. And like, you probably looked on Insta and saw that I had this memorial photo.

• 36:06Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 36:06Sabrina Zohar?

  And you said, I want to make sure that you're okay if I bring Kobe, or is that gonna be triggering? That's why I went. Because I knew that there was something about you. I was like, this person has depth to them. They care, they're thoughtful, they're, they show empathy, even though you don't like to believe that you do. But they show a-

• 36:20Speaker 05

  Altruism.

• 36:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Altruism. But that's what I mean by like, that was me being a better buyer. These other guys, and I'm sure they were lovely, I just, I was her. I was the girl messaging back and forth for days and then being like, sorry, I can't do this. And that was, I was going through my shit. I don't think I'm a bad person for it. I just, I tried my best to be honest in the time.

• 36:39Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And most people on the internet are very much in the same boat. And we have to stop expecting that everyone that you meet is automatically going to become your forever partner.

• 36:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Or treat you the way that you would treat them, or think like you do, or act like you do. Like Masha has always said, your lived experience isn't everybody else's lived experience. And we have to hold space for that. I even, even when I'm talking, even when I'm talking to people, clients, every single day, it's like, I keep that top of mind of, just because I experienced this, or I'm able to do it, doesn't mean other people can.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 37:14Sabrina Zohar?

  And when we're talking about dating, like, even just, I think, what is the kind of the theme here? In the, the questions that I see is like, babies, we gotta start trusting ourselves, we gotta start finding our voice. And, and I understand. And, and the reason I say we have to start finding, isn't because I'm doing this like, here are some niceties, right? Like, love yourself. Good vibes only. Don't think negatively. It's like, all right.

• 37:39Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm the queen of hating that shit, right? Like, don't give me this, like, 140 characters or less than a bumper sticker. But what I am saying is to actually love yourself, to choose yourself, would mean I do trust that what I think is right. Like, when I have a, when I have something, even if I come to you going, I might be totally off, but this is how I feel.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  And set better expectations for yourself so you have a better experience overall. Think how dumb the average person is and then realize that 49% are dumber than that. We have to stop expecting that everyone that you meet online is going to automatically be the perfect person for you. Could they? Yes. Will they? Most likely statistically, no.

• 38:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. And that includes also not just meeting them online. Like, where there's this fetishization now of like, I want to meet in person and I don't want to meet online. And it's like, that's cool. Trust me, I would love a cute about us of like, oh my God, we looked over at each other and that was it, right? How amazing.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  We met at a bar. It's like, okay. And now he's an alcoholic.

• 38:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. This is for next time, the story about the girl I knew in New York that over conflated the first meet that she had with the guy.

• 38:38Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 38:39Sabrina Zohar?

  We'll share that next time because that is some crazy shit. Moral of the story is whether you meet somebody in person, whether you meet them online, you don't know who these people are.

• 38:46Speaker 05

  You absolutely do not know.

• 38:48Sabrina Zohar?

  And we think, we think we do.

• 38:50Speaker 05

  That's because you're just making up stories and filling in the gaps.

• 38:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. And oftentimes, like, my mama has said this to me since I was a kid. Do you think that bad people are always going to look bad? She was like, do you think they're going to come with a warning and that they're going to be, she was like, some of the most attractive people on the world could be some of the worst human beings we've ever seen. So let's not pretend, I'm not saying everyone's a fucking serial killer, that's not the point, but they can be. That's holding that truth of this person could be like, even.

• 39:14Speaker 05

  The point, though, to drive that home before you go off on a tangent is to become a better buyer on the apps. It makes your experience better if you are more intentional or intentional and directed in the way in which you are going about this. And especially the expectations that you're setting with yourself about the experience so that you're not setting yourself up for failure and expecting that these connections that you've been texting back and forth for three days, haven't met in person, is going to become your forever.

• 39:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's pin it with a bow. Take up space. It's okay. Like, I think we have this fear of, no, no, no, I can't. Ask for what I want and I don't wanna, I don't wanna push somebody away and I don't wanna scare them. And no, no, no, I don't wanna come off as too much. The only reason I have the partner I have is because I showed up like this from day one. Like, let me ask you, have I drastically changed the person that you see now? I mean, I've evolved, but the woman that you met, is that who you see?

• 40:05Speaker 05

  Very much so. I mean, she has a few hundred thousand more followers and has grown her voice and her,

• 40:14Speaker 05

  her impact on the world. And so you are still the same fundamental person, but it's also fun to be able to watch the evolution. And that evolution only happens when you give people time and space.

• 40:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. And so it's okay, allow yourselves to take up space of like, no, I want a relationship. Like if you're in a long distancing, like, no, I want a relationship. This is the reality I'd like. I don't wanna live in fantasy. You're matching with people on the apps. Hey, let's meet in person. I don't wanna do this endless texting. I'd rather see if we have a connection. Do yourself the favor. And so here's the thing, yeah, you might be alone, right? You might, oh, well, but I'm in half less people. You will also have your peace of mind back because you wanna deal with this bullshit? You wanna constantly be wondering like a pump and dump and figure out which one's gonna land?

• 40:54Speaker 05

  We use that phrase very differently.

• 40:55Sabrina Zohar?

  We use that phrase very differently, but you know what I'm saying? So guys, I think this was a successful first episode. We still have extra questions for next time, but we could save those and we'll need more. So guys, please don't forget.

• 41:07Speaker 05

  So many more, not just questions. Send in your texts, send in your dating app profiles. If you don't wanna pay for a profile audit, we will do a live review and also be able to, to touch on prompts and the consistent issues that we see in the way in which people are presenting themselves.

• 41:26Sabrina Zohar?

  And if you want relationship advice as well, this isn't just if you're single. This isn't just if you're dating. We'll give you whatever we need to give you whatever you guys need.

• 41:33Speaker 05

  We are in the trenches with you.

• 41:35Sabrina Zohar?

  We're in the trenches with you. Where's the warp paint? So guys, thank you for, thank you for being here. Thank you for supporting and thank you for listening to this far. So I'm super excited. Don't forget in the trenches at sabrina zahar.com to send us more stuff. And until next time, babes.

• 41:58Speaker 02

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• 42:22Speaker 04

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• 42:28Speaker 06

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