“Success” Looks Different for Every Family with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach

Author Glennon Doyle and superstar soccer legend Abby Wambach sit down to give advice about what an IMO listener should prioritize while figuring out where to move her young family. Glennon shares why she moved her family seven times, and, as the “bonus parent,” Abby discusses what she thinks is most important to their kids’ and family’s happiness (hint: It’s not unlimited cake-pops, though she’s tried). Craig and Michelle discuss their own stories of uprooting families for careers—including a very strange move to a big house in Washington, DC. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Craig Robinson?

  Would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

• 0:05Michelle Obama?

  Well, I I'm biased. I think New York is just a hard place to live. I don't, you know, no offense to New Yorkers, but man, yeah, you know, I mean, I just, when I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there. Pick them up. Pick them up away from the dirt.

• 0:32Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Pine Sol.

• 0:38Craig Robinson?

  I am so excited to be here.

• 0:41Michelle Obama?

  So.

• 0:43Craig Robinson?

  Very excited.

• 0:45Michelle Obama?

  It's good to see you.

• 0:46Craig Robinson?

  It's good to be seen.

• 0:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. What's been going on with you?

• 0:50Craig Robinson?

  Well, got a high schooler again.

• 0:53Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Round two, round two.

• 0:56Craig Robinson?

  Austin's going into high school.

• 0:58Michelle Obama?

  Is he gonna be playing basketball?

• 1:01Craig Robinson?

  He's properly worried about making junior varsity, which is good.

• 1:08Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:08Craig Robinson?

  Because most kids who are freshmen think they should be playing in the NBA. And he doesn't feel that way, so I'm happy about that.

• 1:16Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:17Craig Robinson?

  But he is, um, he's got just enough confidence. But that's because he puts in the work. He, you know, Austin's a worker.

• 1:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25Craig Robinson?

  Aaron just shows up game.

• 1:29Michelle Obama?

  Well, your two are pretty exceptional.

• 1:31Craig Robinson?

  I appreciate you saying that. And speaking of exceptional, Malia and Sasha at the wedding.

• 1:36Michelle Obama?

  Your oldest wedding, yeah. We had, they, they came to the wedding. We did not.

• 1:40Craig Robinson?

  It was so nice having them around. And, and you know, we, we stayed in an Airbnb. They stayed at a hotel, but because we had the Airbnb and plenty of room, they were at our place almost entirely the whole time. So it was real, really fun for all the kids, all the cousins to hang out together.

• 1:57Michelle Obama?

  Great cousin time. I mean, you know, the four of them together, plus the two little ones. There's nothing like it.

• 2:05Craig Robinson?

  And the two little ones think that they are in their twenties with, with Malia and Sasha, with the big crew kids.

• 2:11Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 2:13Craig Robinson?

  You know, I had to tell them, just settle down.

• 2:15Michelle Obama?

  Great, great. Well, I I'm I'm excited for the kids' next journey. This is gonna be a big year.

• 2:22Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 2:23Michelle Obama?

  But I think they're gonna do okay.

• 2:24Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm gonna segue to the our question. We have a great question from one of our listeners, talking about family and what to do, where to live, and kind of the stuff that we've had to deal with in in our family.

• 2:42Michelle Obama?

  Absolutely.

• 2:43Craig Robinson?

  On a couple of different occasions. But we have a great, I'm so excited.

• 2:48Michelle Obama?

  I am too.

• 2:49Craig Robinson?

  We have.

• 2:49Michelle Obama?

  I know. We've got some good guests today.

• 2:52Craig Robinson?

  Good guests to help with with with this question. First off, we've got Glennon Doyle, who's the author of number one New York Times bestseller, Untamed, which has sold more than 3 million copies. And I'm reading this to you. You know these people.

• 3:09Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:11Craig Robinson?

  And she's joined by her partner, Abby Wambach, who's a two-time Olympic gold medalist. Now you can see why I'm holding back on the sports.

• 3:18Michelle Obama?

  Settle down, settle down.

• 3:19Craig Robinson?

  FIFA World Cup champion and six-time winner of the US Soccer Athlete of the Year Award. And I'm just gonna stop right there. You know how hard it is to be an athlete of the year one time?

• 3:33Michelle Obama?

  I don't know, because I've never been athlete of the year. So I assume it's big. That's a rare thing.

• 3:38Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, it is rare. It is rare. She's also an activist for equality and inclusion and the author of a number one New York Times bestseller. Imagine that.

• 3:48Michelle Obama?

  Powerhouse couple.

• 3:49Craig Robinson?

  Just you know something about that.

• 3:52Craig Robinson?

  Her her book is entitled Wolf Pack. And together Glennon and Abby co-host the beloved chart-topping We Can Do Hard Things podcast. Welcome, Glennon and Abby.

• 4:05Michelle Obama?

  Come on down. Yay.

• 4:09Craig Robinson?

  It's so good to see you.

• 4:11Michelle Obama?

  Guys.

• 4:12Craig Robinson?

  Guys.

• 4:14Craig Robinson?

  Have a seat.

• 4:15Michelle Obama?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome. Thank you, guys, for being here. I mean, Craig, he doesn't really know how amazing, really amazing you guys are.

• 4:24Craig Robinson?

  I do. I did my homework.

• 4:25Michelle Obama?

  No, you don't know like I know. But I had the pleasure of talking to you guys sadly on Zoom. And it was amazing. I was like, right after our Zoom conversation, I was like, I want to be with them. So here we are. Here we are. You know, we got my big brother here, but we're doing some talking about things, sharing ideas. And you two were at the top of my list. So I am so grateful that you have come to Martha's Vineyard, taking time off of your busy schedules. And I'm glad that we're in the same room. Because it really is a different kind of thing. So, so thank you. Thank you both.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Thank you for having us. That's an honor. Really an honor, really special. And I think it's so special you're choosing to do this together.

• 5:12Michelle Obama?

  With my brother. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see how long it lasts.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  How's it going so far? Is it going okay?

• 5:16Craig Robinson?

  Like, she's looking at the side of my head, wondering, what is he talking about?

• 5:22Michelle Obama?

  But it is fun. This is our first joint project, really, I mean, ever in our lives. That it's been just you and me.

• 5:31Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Michelle Obama?

  You know, but we're glad to have you guys here. And we've got a really fun, not fun, but you know, a question that is kind of familiar to all of us.

• 5:42Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Michelle Obama?

  We've all sort of dealt with this as, as parents and, you know, good natured people trying to figure out what's the best thing to do for family and kids.

• 5:51Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, and we've got a question from a listener named Shira. Let's take a listen.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Shira and I'm 43 years old. My husband and I have lived in New York City for many years, but after having two children in the last five years, we decided to move to rural Maine for more space and more affordable living. However, now that we've been here for a couple of years, it no longer seems like the right choice. We're isolated from a large network of friends or any family, and there aren't as many career opportunities for our professions. I have my own handbag company and my husband is a film editor. On one hand, moving back to New York City doesn't feel like a long-term solution. I want to provide an anchored home base for my children, and the city doesn't really feel sustainable, especially without affordable childcare. On the other hand, there isn't really any other city

• 6:40Speaker 03

  that offers a surefire support system for our kids' care. Our parents are in Massachusetts and California, and they're aging, and their siblings' families are just too busy. And there still isn't a better place for our joint careers other than New York. Given that there isn't one perfect city or one obvious reason to move anywhere, what should we prioritize when deciding when we have limited financial resources to draw from, but life is too expensive in the city where we can make the most money? What guiding principles should we use when deciding where to set up our family for the greatest ability and success? Thanks, Shira.

• 7:15Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 7:16Craig Robinson?

  So a lot of meat on the bones here.

• 7:18Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. A lot of meat, but it's...

• 7:19Craig Robinson?

  Gang.

• 7:20Michelle Obama?

  This is a great question because I feel like I talk about this all the time. Not so much in my personal life, but we have young staff, and many of them are starting to marry and build their families. And this is something that everyone is grappling with, especially in this day and age where people are so transient, you know, and there are so many options and opportunities. I mean, gone were the days when you grew up in the neighborhood that you were raised in, bought a house down the street from your mom, went to the school around the corner, and spent your life in one neighborhood. We're now all over the place. And so what does that mean for families? And how do you make decisions?

• 8:02Michelle Obama?

  I mean, I literally talk about this a couple of times a month with young people who are trying to figure out how to build a life. So it's one of the reasons why I was excited about this because I know there are a lot of people who are grappling with this. But Barack and I have talked about this because he sent us an article. It talked about the... how unusual the concept of the nuclear family is. I don't know if you guys read that article. We didn't. But it's like... That is a concept, the concept of two parents and children building their lives together is a relatively new concept to this generation.

• 8:46Michelle Obama?

  That it isn't really how we were designed to be because we're kind of pack animals. We live in community in ways that I think are more foreign to couples now because a lot of young couples are thinking about, how do I make it on my own? I moved away, I don't have support, and so now I'm trying to do all this stuff, have a family, find childcare, and everybody is trying to do this alone. And that's just a recent occurrence. So I wonder whether we've sort of lost our direction in terms of what we should be looking for, but I'd be interested in how you guys have thought about it.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  I mean, it's interesting because this question, whether we've admitted it or not, has kind of been swirling around our family from the beginning of time, even before I met Glennon. Do you want to tell the story of Chase and the plants?

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we have, our oldest is now in college, but became in high school obsessed with plants. So he, his whole room was, there was 30 plants in there. We called them our grand plants. It was exhausting. I didn't ever, I always had to be on guard when he was, had a sleepover and...

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Well, when did he, how did he get into plants? That's very...

• 10:02Speaker 04

  We don't really know. He's an interesting kid. Yeah, but just covering, just a jungle. And there was this one plant that...

• 10:08Speaker 02

  There was like 50 plants in his room.

• 10:09Speaker 04

  The vines were all the way across the wall and he had like tacks guiding the... So at one point I said, you know, what's the deal? Where did this come from? And especially this one with the wall. And he said, I think I just really like to be able to see the passage of time and roots because we've moved so many times that I don't have that.

• 10:33Michelle Obama?

  Wow. Ooh. Shank. Twist. Pull out.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  It has not stopped. That was three or four years ago. And that has been, we did, we moved all the time. And we moved for money reasons. I was teaching and we couldn't afford our area. Then we moved close to my parents for the support. Then we thought, like, a lot of people have this experience where you love your parents and you think they're wonderful and you also kind of revert to a version of yourself when you're around your parents that you don't want to be the version of yourself that's raising your kids.

• 11:09Michelle Obama?

  Right, right.

• 11:10Speaker 04

  So I moved away from there and then in seven or eight moves. And now we're in a situation where our kids don't, you know, our kid comes home from college, but it's not home.

• 11:24Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 04

  It's a nice place.

• 11:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  But his friends aren't there. So I just love that they're thinking about this because I think what happened to me, I did a little of the Goldilocks situation. This place is too this, not enough that.

• 11:38Michelle Obama?

  Right, right.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  But I think I just ran out of time. I think I just kept thinking, I'm gonna find the place.

• 11:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 04

  And then, so now they have a lot of, of, of wings.

• 11:48Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:49Speaker 04

  But they don't have.

• 11:50Michelle Obama?

  The roots.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  The roots.

• 11:52Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I don't know. It's just something we think about all the time right now, like, what do you need in a place? And I like that she said there's nowhere perfect because there is nowhere perfect.

• 12:03Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  When the kids are younger, you're a different kind of person in a parent.

• 12:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Than when they're a little bit older, getting into their teenage years and becoming young adults. And so their needs change.

• 12:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  And we've been talking a lot about this because we're getting to the point where our youngest is about to go to college, empty nesters. And, and we're wondering, oh, are we building a life so that they keep coming back to? Or are we building a life that we want to live?

• 12:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  In? And I think it's probably gonna be a mixture of both, but the truth is, they're not gonna come back very often as time continues to go on. So we have to figure out a world in which we want to live in.

• 12:43Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  With each other.

• 12:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  That maybe when they pop in, it's good. This is such an interesting question because there's work involved. Work versus family.

• 12:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Where can you do the both?

• 12:54Craig Robinson?

  And, and I, I think there is a level to the work part that we're, we're not talking about because gone are the days when you can get a job and end up somewhere for 30 years and get the gold watch and the party, retirement party at the end. What I always feel like is we're training our kids to not.

• 13:17Craig Robinson?

  Be so sedentary where they are, oh, my gosh, I just got let go from a job and I can't operate.

• 13:25Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 13:25Craig Robinson?

  Because that's going to be more the rule than the exception.

• 13:29Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 13:30Craig Robinson?

  I get that feeling because being a coach, we've had to move every time there's a job opportunity or a firing, you have to move. And I always put it off as, oh, this is good for the kids.

• 13:44Michelle Obama?

  I do, too.

• 13:45Craig Robinson?

  But it's not necessarily always that way. It may be, I know it's good for the family, but it may not be good for the kids. And it begs the question is how important is community for these young people?

• 13:58Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. The biggest worry that I had when Barack was elected, it wasn't the difficulty of the job. It wasn't the strain or the hardship or the, you know, the threats or all the things you might imagine. I worried about my girls. I worried about moving them out of what was the only community and home they had ever known, where my brother was down the street and my mom was picking them up from school. I mean, we had a really wonderful life in Chicago. And I thought, I'm, I'm going to do the worst thing to these kids. And they were seven and 10, second grade and fifth grade. I'm going to pluck them out in the middle of the school year,

• 14:43Michelle Obama?

  mind you, because the presidency doesn't work for families. You know, it's like all the timing of it is really stupid. So while we're transitioning, you know, trying to hire staff and come up with the initiatives and Barack is, you know, building his cabinet, I'm thinking, I gotta get these kids in a school where they're not going to just be any kids. They're going to be kids with Secret Service. You know, I just couldn't wrap my arms around of course, how to make this feel good for them. But the, the long story short is that they did way better than I thought. I mean, they transitioned better than I was transitioning.

• 15:33Craig Robinson?

  So this summer, we had a wonderful occasion happen in our family. It was our eldest son's wedding. The resort we stayed at had about 500 homes and we were able to Airbnb one of the homes there. And it was a guest favorite home. And what that is, is that's one of a collection of 2 million homes that are the most loved in the Airbnb collection, based on ratings, reviews, and reliability. And our son, yes, the one who is getting married, wanted to make a cake as a tribute to my mom, his grandma, who had just passed away. And I get choked up when I think about it, the fact that he wanted to do that.

• 16:16Craig Robinson?

  Well, not only did he want to make it, he wanted his little brothers, who are 14 and 12, to help him make it. And our daughter, who's 28, was sort of supervising the whole thing. And we're sitting there watching. All I could see was disaster happening. And the cake turned out beautifully. Our son Avery wanted it to be at the reception. So we get to the reception where there's a table of desserts, these beautiful, well catered desserts. And in the middle are two gigantic red velvet cakes that look like a 12-year-old made them. There was icing everywhere. There was coconut not quite on each piece. But the good news was that every single piece of that cake was gone.

• 16:59Craig Robinson?

  And I'm here to tell you, it was a delicious cake and a real tribute to my mom. It turned out to be a wonderful opportunity for, for all of us to be together, share some time together, and celebrate our son's wedding. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Theraplu. Hey, it's Craig Robinson here. And let me tell you, being sick is no joke. But you know what's even tougher? Feeling like you can't take the time to rest and recover because you've got bills to pay or a job to keep. You know, being a coach, even though I was afforded paid sick time, it was the type of job that you really try and muscle through for your team.

• 17:43Craig Robinson?

  And I have done that. It made me realize, though, that it is tough for folks who don't have the benefit of paid sick time. It's not only tough on the individual and their families, it's also tough on your coworkers. Maybe you, like so many Americans, have felt that stress too, wondering what your boss will think, or if your paycheck will take a hit. That's why I'm proud to talk about what Theraplu is doing with their Right to Rest and Recover campaign. For the past four years, they've been championing the right to paid sick time for everyone. I love that Theraplu is making this a priority. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund

• 18:26Craig Robinson?

  at theraplu.com/righttorecover.

• 18:36Michelle Obama?

  And it was interesting because Barack wasn't worried about it because he was more of a transient kid, you know? His mom was an anthropologist and traveled the world. And, you know, he was born and raised in Hawaii, but spent time in Indonesia. His mom was in, she wasn't there, he didn't know his father. He grew up with more instability in that sense. And thought, moving is not a big deal, you know? They're seven and 10. We didn't move at all. My mother, when she left the White House, she moved back into the home that we grew up in. So that's how sort of steady and stable and secure we were.

• 19:18Michelle Obama?

  And I was terrified that this was gonna ruin them.

• 19:22Craig Robinson?

  You were.

• 19:23Michelle Obama?

  I really could barely focus until, it wasn't until I got the final, you know, when the kids get invited to their first playdate and it feels like a real friend. Yes. And, you know, that wasn't until March where I felt like... Okay, I can breathe. I mean, forget about everything else that was happening and the attacks and the, all the politics. Knowing that they were settled and were gonna be okay, that was the biggest relief that I had. But I say all that to say that they turned out okay.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 19:56Michelle Obama?

  Because kids are way more resilient, I think, than we give them credit for. And even if your father is president of the United States and you live in the Strange Museum and you have men with guns following you around all the time, if you're grounded, you know, if you have that place of assurance somewhere, then that kind of gets you through.

• 20:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:21Michelle Obama?

  And strangely, that has me arguing to Shira that, as you were saying, Abby, figure out the life you need to live.

• 20:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:31Michelle Obama?

  You know, because kids, they're gonna be gone.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 20:35Michelle Obama?

  And these years are just a blip on the screen in their lives, if, assuming that they're young, and they, they do better than you expect if you're okay with it.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  If you're okay.

• 20:47Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 20:48Speaker 04

  If you're okay. Yeah, because the stability, the stability, the home that our kids have always had is us.

• 20:55Michelle Obama?

  Uh huh.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  Right? It's, it's, that is the guiding principle is, I see you. I'm letting you reveal yourself forever.

• 21:05Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 21:05Speaker 04

  And I'm here. And that's not geographical, right?

• 21:08Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  But I do think, sometimes when I think back, and I don't beat myself up about it, I did the best I could, but I, right when I was freshly sober.

• 21:18Michelle Obama?

  Uh huh.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  I was just growing up.

• 21:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  I was growing up, and could I do it over again? I would have found a way, I think, to been doing work on myself as I was going along.

• 21:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  Like, I think that's what I would say to a new parent. I don't know what the answer is geographically.

• 21:35Michelle Obama?

  Uh huh.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  But I think if I had had some sort of accountability partner, I know that nobody can afford therapy, it's awful, like.

• 21:41Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  But somebody who may have said to me, "You seem to be moving every 18 months."

• 21:46Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 21:47Speaker 04

  It's like, "Is it possible there's something going on with you?"

• 21:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 04

  That, that feels like the life for yourself and being right with yourself then flows out to the babies who are just looking at you, really.

• 22:00Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  I also think that there's something inside of Shira's question that has a desire for structure. And when we have the conversations around families, children, and all of the stuff that I know Shira knows about, and a business that she's running, and her husband, and dealing with it, it is nice to feel as though that there is some sort of structure in place in our lives.

• 22:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  But there just isn't.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Like, we're all just making it up.

• 22:37Michelle Obama?

  Yep.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  All of us.

• 22:39Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  And because our parents did it in a vastly different way than than most of us are doing it now, my parents are still in the same house that I was born in. For me, it's like, I do like, structure liberates me in a way, to be like, held to also be free within it. But also, as these children grow up, and as you grow up, like, when we become adults, I think people just assume at 25 that we're now adults forever. Like, my 35-year-old self was very different than my 25. My 45-year-old self is gonna be very different than 35.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  Next Wednesday, I'm gonna be different.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  We're all still growing up and trying to figure out, because the world is so different.

• 23:23Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  And so be easy on yourself, Shira, and and know that, yes, it feels good to have some structure, but also there has to be a fluidity in the creating of these philosophies or priorities when trying to decide what is most important here. Is it work? Is it marriage? Is it kids? Is it, you know, support systems around you?

• 23:47Michelle Obama?

  This whole notion of growing up, it never happens. I was just having this conversation with Malia, our oldest, who is now... How old is Malia? She's... She's 26 because she doesn't have insurance now. Oh, there we go. We were rushing. She was like Obamacare. Thanks. It's like, yeah, thank your dad. Thank your dad. But she just turned 26. But it's so, so they live on their own. They live in LA. She's writing, directing, doing her thing. And it is so funny when she goes, is this it? Am I an adult now? And I'm like, you know, this is kind of what life is. You know, she's like, but I don't feel like I know anything more than I did three years ago.

• 24:32Michelle Obama?

  And it's like, yeah, and you're, you're going to feel that way at 35 and 45. I mean, there isn't a time when you reach adulthood and you go, I'm an adult. Yeah. I'm 60 and I'm still waiting to grow up.

• 24:43Craig Robinson?

  And wait till you have a kid. You won't know what's going on again.

• 24:46Michelle Obama?

  That's right. That's a whole new sense of. But I think you make a good point about, you know, we've got to be easier on ourselves in terms of how we define life. You know, in this question is this notion that there's a right way to do this. And if you've lived it, you know, there isn't an answer. There isn't a one way that a family looks. And that's not where the happiness comes from, that you're following some straight, narrow definition of what it means to be a family, whether it's geographically or economically or what have you. And that's a beautiful lesson for kids to learn early, you know? That home is wherever you make it.

• 25:27Michelle Obama?

  I mean, I think that's what I learned after our eight years in the White House, is that home is wherever we are. Yes. You know, we will build the home from within. The external factors are just the nature of life and life changes. Yes. And things happen.

• 25:48Craig Robinson?

  It's really interesting that Mish says that it came to her later. Because I always felt that. And I'll tell you when I really felt it. I grew up on the South Side, but I played basketball on the West Side, which is.

• 26:07Michelle Obama?

  In Chicago, it's like being in another.

• 26:09Craig Robinson?

  It's like being in another country. It was a rougher area as far as I could tell. But I came to find out that the guys from the West Side thought the South Side was harder.

• 26:18Michelle Obama?

  Oh, interesting.

• 26:20Craig Robinson?

  But my dad worked a swing shift.

• 26:24Craig Robinson?

  And when he could, he would come to practice. He was the only parent there.

• 26:30Craig Robinson?

  And when one of the kids from the other team said, "Man, you must really love it that your dad comes to practice." In the meantime, I was hating the fact that he was the only dad there. And it was at that point that I realized that my family was special.

• 26:58Craig Robinson?

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• 27:40Craig Robinson?

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• 28:26Craig Robinson?

  The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease, and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only. This episode of IMO is also brought to you by Acorns.

• 29:11Craig Robinson?

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• 29:50Craig Robinson?

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• 30:35Craig Robinson?

  Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com/imo.

• 30:51Craig Robinson?

  It was at that point I realized wherever my family is, I could feel home. And when I think about Shira's question, I would hope that she would get from us here today that it doesn't matter where you live.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  Right, it doesn't.

• 31:08Craig Robinson?

  And the point I want to get to is that Shira and her husband have to be more empathetic to themselves. I think they're being hard on themselves and understanding that, hey, it's up to you too. And you may not know what the answers are. You may not know. But just love those kids, love your community, get involved, and have your parents come visit when they can come visit.

• 31:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. But I think people have to be careful not to parent out of guilt.

• 31:42Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 31:43Michelle Obama?

  And what I worry about, or I would caution Shira, is to, when you do make that choice, whatever the choice is, don't parent them like you've hurt their feelings. You know? Because sometimes people over... They overcompensate for choices that they feel bad about. That's the disservice to kids. It's not moving them. It's not that they can't see their grandmother, or they, you know, live in a city or an apartment, or don't have a yard. Kids respond to their situations based on how you act.

• 32:17Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 32:18Michelle Obama?

  You know? I mean, Barack was president of the United States, and I could have felt sorry for my girls, right? It's like, oh, my God, you know? Look what we did to you. And I sort of went the opposite direction. It's like, this isn't about you. We just happen to live in this house. It's your father's job. Every father has a job, you know? So just get on with it. Yep, you got Secret Service. I'm not gonna pour thing you to death. It's odd, but it's what you have. And I think, parents, we have to be careful not to push our guilt into our parenting. Because that can mess your kid up.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. I got divorced when my middle one was seven? She's seven? She was 10. Your middle was 10. Whatever, I never know how old.

• 33:05Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I know, I'm like that. I barely remembered how old Malia was today.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  Oh, my goodness. She's 18 now. Every once in a while, she'll be like, I'm like your room. She's like, oh, it's just the divorce.

• 33:17Speaker 04

  Like, you know what? You just really do have to, like, it's hard. Yes, you do have to move them along.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  That just makes me think of, this might be a side tangent, but as a stepparent, we call it bonus parent. I have often wondered, and Glennon's been such a wonderful leader in our family in this way, and helping me learn how to parent, because I became an Insta mom. Like, that. In fact, one of the times, we were going through a drive-through, and they wanted a cake pop. And I said, yes, this is great. I'm gonna get cake pops. And, and they said, can we, can we have one? I'm like, yes, okay. And so I ordered, and they said, how many? And I said, all of them.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  And I said, oh, no, I will turn this car around. Nobody gets any cake, no cake pops.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  I was just trying to buy their love.

• 34:09Craig Robinson?

  Wow, with all of them, you would buy mine.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  So Glennon, luckily, she was there, and she put the kibosh on that.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  But I don't know why I went down this road.

• 34:19Michelle Obama?

  No, but it's, it is about the parenting. And sometimes I did overkill on the parenting of trying to be normal, to the extent that one time, Malia was on punishment for a semester. I mean, it was, it was too much, right? It was a whole semester.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  I mean, did she do something? Like, did she murder a human?

• 34:40Michelle Obama?

  No, she didn't murder a human. She did teenage stuff. This is, you know, every time something happened, and there are teenagers in the White House, I'm thinking, oh, my God, this is a sign that they're gonna be on the street, they're gonna be addicts, and this is really gonna mess them up. So I gotta put down the hammer, right? And so the hammer over this incident was you're grounded for a semester. And it didn't start out as a semester. First, it was a month. And then I let her off and then she didn't make curfew or did something like that. And, you know, I'd have these lectures and this guilt stuff. And, you know, my oldest, who's very sweet, she understood how to just look me in the eye and go,

• 35:22Michelle Obama?

  "You're right, Mom. I don't know what got into me. You're so right." She'd just sucker me and it's like, "I'm gonna think about that." And, ooh.

• 35:31Speaker 04

  You have one of those.

• 35:32Michelle Obama?

  And I'm just like, "This kid..." Then I was like, "You're just, you're punking me." You know, so now it's a semester.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:39Michelle Obama?

  You know, and Barack is trying to, he's trying to be the president, but also trying to be a good parent. And he's like, "Yeah, whatever your mom says." Although he's looking at me like, "Oh, semester?" I was like, "I said a semester."

• 35:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:49Michelle Obama?

  And I cannot go back on it.

• 35:51Speaker 04

  No, you can't.

• 35:51Michelle Obama?

  You know, so.

• 35:52Craig Robinson?

  Wait, wait a minute. Stop. Abby, what's the longest you've been on punishment?

• 35:58Speaker 02

  In my life, like when I was a kid?

• 36:00Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  I mean, I was a pretty bad kid.

• 36:02Craig Robinson?

  But, but, but the longest one term?

• 36:05Speaker 02

  I got grounded once and it was one night.

• 36:09Craig Robinson?

  And how about you?

• 36:10Speaker 04

  I was grounded for a quarter. We had quarters. I got a couple Cs and that was it. But I used to get grounded outside because I, all I want to do is sit inside and read. So my mother would ground me outside of the house.

• 36:22Michelle Obama?

  You must go and be with people.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, you must people and that was horrible punishment. You never got to see again.

• 36:27Craig Robinson?

  How long have you been grounded?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  We, I was never really grounded.

• 36:31Craig Robinson?

  Grounded.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  But I never, I wasn't a bad kid.

• 36:34Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  I wasn't doing anything.

• 36:36Craig Robinson?

  Who, who never gets grounded?

• 36:38Speaker 04

  What about you?

• 36:39Craig Robinson?

  What, but who never gets grounded and then assigns a semester?

• 36:43Speaker 02

  But somebody who is worried about the, the choices her husband is making.

• 36:48Michelle Obama?

  That's exactly my point.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Is royally messing up her children.

• 36:52Michelle Obama?

  I get it. Thank you.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Because, look, anytime our kids do a very, very minor, minor situation, I'm like, "Oh, they can't ever leave the house again."

• 37:01Speaker 04

  She thinks it's because you think it's your fault.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, it's because of the fame."

• 37:04Craig Robinson?

  You're only grounded for a week or a day or whatever it was.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Of the, the world knows us. It's because of money, whatever it is.

• 37:10Michelle Obama?

  You don't want them to be entitled.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:12Michelle Obama?

  You know, you don't want to get any of those signs. That's exactly now. So let me finish. I was wrong. That was too long.

• 37:20Craig Robinson?

  No kidding.

• 37:22Michelle Obama?

  It didn't work. It didn't have the desired effect. So, but I was learning is my point to Shira. It's like, sometimes we overcompensate our, you know, I mean, and this is a strange position. I didn't have any role models of kids in high school in the White House. And your dad's the first black president. I mean, come on, give me a break. I was kind of flying blind on this, you know? So much so that, you know, I learned with Sasha coming up, who was rarely on punishment. But of course, Malia heard about it. It's like, why isn't Sasha on punishment? It's like, because what I did to you was wrong. So I'm not going to repeat it just because you did it.

• 38:02Michelle Obama?

  But the broader point is, is that sometimes our guilt, our, our issues get in the way of our parenting.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  So true.

• 38:12Michelle Obama?

  And, you know, making a move and making changes, moving into a smaller house, moving away from friends. All those things can feel really heavy as a parent. And I guess my experience is like, it, it didn't really hurt them that bad. They turned out to be pretty good kids and it wasn't because of the semester punishment.

• 38:31Craig Robinson?

  It wasn't.

• 38:31Michelle Obama?

  I was just trying to keep her off the front page of people.

• 38:34Craig Robinson?

  The burden of being the oldest, right there.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, I think like where, where Shira might be at too. I think we are in a world that we can make lists of pros and cons. And we can talk to the people. We can even send in a podcast question to Michelle Obama.

• 38:57Michelle Obama?

  Tell me what to do.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  To figure out. But the truth is, and I think Glenn could probably expand on this a little. I think she already knows.

• 39:05Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  I think deep down, there's a knowing inside of her. She's just looking for confirmation, some which way. Because at the end of the day, nobody knows what the heck they're doing. We just have to make decision after decision. And some are right and some are wrong.

• 39:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  And you just kind of like flow with it.

• 39:23Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Flow with it.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  And the fact that she's even asking it.

• 39:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  I talked to this one parenting expert that said that the trouble is that all the parents that come to her to say, am I doing this right? What should I do? Those are the parents that don't need her.

• 39:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  The fact that Cher is even asking these questions, even saying, what does success look like for my family? That's a great question. Like, I wish I had done that. Sit down with your person and say, what does success mean? Because you don't want to take the culture's default of that. That's a beautiful question.

• 39:55Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 39:56Speaker 04

  You know, what does it mean? What do you want your adult children to? All I care about is that they are who they are. And that they know that they have a home in us to constantly return to.

• 40:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Speaker 04

  And so if that's success, that's enough. Right?

• 40:13Craig Robinson?

  So would we be? Would we be changing our answer if it wasn't New York?

• 40:20Michelle Obama?

  Well, I I'm biased. I think New York is just a hard place to live. I don't, you know, no offense to New Yorkers, but man.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:30Michelle Obama?

  You know, I mean, I just, when I'm in New York and I see people with strollers and little kids, I just think it's dirty down there. Pick them up. Pick them up away from the dirt. You know, I mean, you walk the streets of New York in white pants and they're dirty by the end of the day. I was like, you got your kid down there.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:48Michelle Obama?

  And so I'm, you know, Chicago is a very different city.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:51Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's smaller, it's cleaner. It's just, New York is just one of a kind.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 40:57Michelle Obama?

  And it just seems like a hard way to live.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:00Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 41:00Speaker 04

  Little ones.

• 41:01Michelle Obama?

  A little ones in a stroller going down the subway. I'm just like, wow, that looks hard.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  It does. I'm a three day New York City person. Three day max, two nights, three days, and I'm solid. I love it. I'm like, this is like.

• 41:14Michelle Obama?

  Love it for those three days.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  The wonderland. And then I'm like, please help me get out of here.

• 41:18Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 04

  Is there something, though? I would, I do think, like, when I hear you talk about the way that you were raised and the community, I do.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  Crave that. I wish for people, for young couples. I don't think it has to be your family. Like, not everyone is lucky.

• 41:36Michelle Obama?

  I agree.

• 41:36Speaker 04

  Sometimes it can't be. Sometimes the support you need is not that.

• 41:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Speaker 04

  And I think there's a lot of pressure that it's that or nothing, which is no good for a lot of young couples. Sometimes you really do need to start

• 41:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 04

  new. But there's something to the accountability of community. I think it's just so easy to, when things get hard, and I think I did this many times, to just eject. And there's something that doesn't develop character-wise as much, I think, in that. Like, I do wish for people some kind of steady community.

• 42:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  In one way, but not that it has any form.

• 42:16Michelle Obama?

  I completely agree with you, because that's my lifeblood. I mean, I've got, I'm blessed to have a brother that I love. My mother was there for us. We had a good extended family. But, you know, a lot of my support came from friends that I built. The friendships that I built outside of my family. But I do know that that, you have to have intentionality to do that. And it is well worth the effort. You know, at every stage of my kid's life, I made sure that I knew other parents, you know, that I got to know them. So that I wouldn't know who my kids were going to a sleepover with.

• 42:57Michelle Obama?

  And that required me to invite some people to dinner, or go to lunch with a mom, or, you know, extend myself. And when we got to the White House, that was even weirder and harder. Right? Because here I am, the First Lady of the, you know, no matter how I acted, I come in with all the First Lady smoke. You know, the Secret Service, the, you know, the assistants, the putting me in a hold room. And, you know, we were just a disturbance to the, you know, ether. I had to try to be so much smaller to fit into a place. To try to build community because nobody really could come up to me.

• 43:38Michelle Obama?

  I mean, as friendly as I might be, there's just a wall of, you know, and if you came up too fast, you might get a, you might be in a lockhole, you know? So there was some physical barriers. So it was incumbent upon me to reach out or to cozy up to somebody on the bleachers and start a conversation or to put a call in to the mom and to thank them. And from that, each phase of my life, whether it was in Chicago on the South Side or in the White House, I built this community of moms and other friends and people that I could call and get the inside scoop on where the party was

• 44:20Michelle Obama?

  for the sophomores and whether the parents were actually there. Did they have drugs? And, you know, you're only going to get that information from other parents. Your kids aren't going to tell you. No, they're not.

• 44:38Craig Robinson?

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• 45:22Craig Robinson?

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• 46:03Craig Robinson?

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• 46:47Craig Robinson?

  Thanks again to DoorDash, your go-to for making someone's day even from afar. Whether it's flowers, a meal, or a sweet treat, DoorDash makes it easy to show appreciation, no matter where you are. I love this time of year, but hosting during the holidays can be a bit of a challenge. So Kelly and I have collected a few hacks to make it a little bit easier. One of our favorite moves is an extendable dining room table. It's this great walnut color and it's mid-century modern, so it looks awesome in our space. And it even has extra storage in the legs. When we don't need the middle panels, we just slide them out and our space is back to how it was before.

• 47:31Craig Robinson?

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• 48:04Speaker 05

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• 48:06Craig Robinson?

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• 48:50Craig Robinson?

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• 49:40Michelle Obama?

  You have to tell yourself that that's important, and then you have to make the effort to build that community. So Glenn and I agree. I mean, our community is our friends as well, and they saved me during those years. And for Shira, I think that, you know... Wherever they go, that should be the goal. Don't try to do this parenting thing on your own. You know, you need help, you need insight, you need advice, you need other people's perspectives. And that's as important as your job. That's right. You know, it's like, so you might have a great career and you might have a wonderful business, but you need to have friendships that nurture your family.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:25Michelle Obama?

  And you've got to make time for that and you've got to be intentional about that. And to say that it is just as important as the success of your handbag business. Right. That you have this community of support and love and your kids are gonna, they're gonna benefit twofold.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  It's so true. And Craig, I'm gonna get you excited about the line of conversation. I think we'll go with this. Get the, the oldest into sports. That is, because I've moved a lot in my life and we've moved a couple of times. Getting the kids into sports is like, first of all, the kids are the same age, so they're gonna grow up. The parents are around-ish the same age as you. And nowadays, unfortunately, although your dad was great, nowadays I think it's the opposite, that it's kind of bizarre how much the parents watch the practices.

• 51:16Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 51:16Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  I'm like, just let them practice.

• 51:18Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Stop, because they're, they're there like yelling at them and they're like trying to coach them. It's not, it's not as, it's not as sweet as what your father was doing.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  But it's like a Insta friends, like you sit on the sidelines and you're just like, hey, how's it going? You know, what's going on? So that's something for sure and, and her partner to, to think about.

• 51:40Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, no, that, that, I completely agree with that. And our moving around was made easier because our kids were in sports.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:49Craig Robinson?

  So they had a natural group to, to have an affinity with. And there's nothing better.

• 51:58Craig Robinson?

  And even your girls.

• 52:00Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, no, we always had them in sports. They were not sports kids, but they were required to do a team sport and an individual sport. Yes, you know, it's just like, just get out there, just learn how to compete. You know, learn how to lose, you know, we don't care if you like it or not.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what we did with our middle one. I didn't understand that. I was like, well, but if they're not good.

• 52:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 04

  Should they not play sport?

• 52:22Craig Robinson?

  And no.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  What I, I have never, during the divorce, I was thinking about putting one of them into more therapy. And Abby said, how about not? And we just put them in soccer.

• 52:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 04

  And I thought, that's strange.

• 52:36Michelle Obama?

  Is that therapy?

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. But really, wow. All the things that you, it's like a little container to practice safely, everything that's hard about being human.

• 52:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Winning, losing, trying, all of it. It really shaped her completely, I think.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  It really did. And look, we learned very quickly that sports were not going to be a thing for her. She came off the field one day and she was talking to her friend and she said, you know how like you're out there and you're miserable and you hate it?

• 53:05Speaker 04

  And you're terrified the whole time.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  You're scared. And her teammate was like, no, what? And she came home and she said, I'm not supposed to be terrified. And I said, no, honey. And so she now does music and she's doing great at that.

• 53:20Speaker 04

  She said, here's a guitar.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  Try this.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Do something.

• 53:25Michelle Obama?

  And you cry at night before practice? Every night, you're just nothing but tears.

• 53:31Craig Robinson?

  But I want, I want to get back to Shira here. I just want what.

• 53:36Michelle Obama?

  All this was for Shira.

• 53:38Craig Robinson?

  This is, and one of the things she talked about was being where she is up in rural Maine. The resources for her family are limited, which is why she was thinking about moving to New York. And I, I love the fact that you're, you're thinking, Abby, that both of you are like, she knows the answer. She wants some justification, but there is some.

• 54:03Craig Robinson?

  Concern for parents and people if they're not making enough money.

• 54:09Michelle Obama?

  Sure.

• 54:10Craig Robinson?

  For their families. And let's just say that they weren't thinking New York, right? They were thinking Chicago or LA or Dallas, Texas, or somewhere.

• 54:21Michelle Obama?

  Another big expensive city.

• 54:23Craig Robinson?

  Another big expensive city. Where it might help their overall resources. How do you look at that?

• 54:32Speaker 04

  I mean, I wish here I'd be looking at preschools. I mean, when I was teaching, I had to quit teaching when I had my second baby because I couldn't afford to teach.

• 54:40Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 54:41Speaker 04

  I could not afford to go to work.

• 54:43Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 54:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. So then I ended up starting a preschool in my home, which I do not recommend.

• 54:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. Don't do that.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  No, no. But wow, there are so many places that do have beautiful, affordable daycare. You just have to find them. And getting kids started in a really strong preschool and elementary school, to me, feels like the most important thing. I would look at that. I mean, it's tricky because she said, I want to be in a city so I can make money. But the cities are too expensive to live in.

• 55:15Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 55:16Speaker 04

  So it's a double bind that is.

• 55:19Michelle Obama?

  Well, it's almost like they've got to really run the numbers, right? Because sometimes people make snap decisions. And this is one of those things, like especially if it's New York. Where you, you know, you might price yourself out of a life, you know, just being there.

• 55:37Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 55:38Michelle Obama?

  So now you're working to work.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 55:42Michelle Obama?

  And that's when I think, you know, you got to start thinking about quality of life too with your career. Because if you're living in such an expensive place where all your income is going to rent and tuition, and you can't save for college, and you can't have a vacation, you can't take time off, you know, you're working to live, those answers are in the numbers.

• 56:10Michelle Obama?

  You know, I don't know how the average family can afford to live in New York City. It's a harder way to live. Some people don't have a choice. But if you have a choice. You know, I personally wouldn't want to be so tied to my job and a salary because you just never know what's gonna happen. Yeah. People get laid off, you know, somebody gets sick. You know, when you have a family, you gotta have some, a margin for error. That's right. You know, a kid could get sick. You might have to, you know, take off of work. And, and this is one thing my, our father was pretty good at. Cause I know when we were little, I always wanted a house, you know?

• 56:53Michelle Obama?

  I was a little girl that wanted a house with stairs and a station wagon. There were things in my mind and we lived in a teeny tiny apartment over our aunt's house. And my mom, eventually my aunt died, she gave the house to our family. That was the only reason we could afford to own a home. I don't think that it mattered that much, you know? It felt like it when I was a little girl, but in hindsight, I thought that our life was brilliant, you know? That we didn't have a lot and that wasn't what made me who I am, having a house with stairs. But our father was pretty clear on not being house poor.

• 57:36Michelle Obama?

  So he just didn't make a lot of risky decisions that would put us in a position where he couldn't pay the bills or he couldn't save for college. So the trade off was we didn't have a house with stairs and a nice fancy station wagon. And we weren't worried, you know? We weren't, we weren't living hand to mouth. Things felt fine and good. So I do think it's important for families not to push themselves to the margins where things can't go wrong. That's right. Where you're, you know, beholden to one thing. You gotta leave room for error.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  That's why it's so beautiful to ask yourself, like, what is success?

• 58:16Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  I mean, the amount of communities that I've stepped into where the idea of enough is not even a thing. There are communities in New York and everywhere where you will enter and never, you will never see the end to what the, the Keeping Up With The Joneses, the Keeping Up With The, it just becomes a pursuit of something that is unattainable. And so to actually ask yourself, what is success for this little family? Like not feeling scarcity?

• 58:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  Having a cushion?

• 58:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 04

  Then you start to make different. Decisions, if your idea of success is different than whatever culture you're in is telling you, it is. I think people, I really feel like people are starting to do that. I think the like, emperor has no clothes of the treadmill of more and more. It's, it's, it's an empty promise that now is feeling empty. And I think these are the questions people are starting to ask, and it's really cool. People are gonna make different decisions.

• 59:11Craig Robinson?

  Do you all feel, and this, this can be anybody. I'm getting the impression that parents today are rushing their kids to be free of their kids.

• 59:27Michelle Obama?

  Like they, we want, they want their kids stable so they don't have to worry about them anymore.

• 59:31Craig Robinson?

  They want their kids out in the world and doing the right thing and supporting themselves. So they won't be bounce back kids. And I feel like I never felt that from my parents. I could always go back home. As a matter of fact, when I was going through my divorce, I did go back home. And I moved upstairs where I grew up with my kids and my mom lived downstairs. It seems to me that some of the mental health issues that are, that are young adults are having are just the fear of going out into the real world and not being ready. And then you can't come back home because your parents are trying to push you away for whatever reason.

• 1:00:14Craig Robinson?

  It could be a valid reason, or it could be that they just want to do their own thing as parents. And have, have you guys seen that or thought about that?

• 1:00:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, when you say it, it makes me think of, oh, because that's what we were told is, is success.

• 1:00:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 04

  And that is actually, like, in my heart, I understand that they need to be able to be independent. But that's not what I want or think of. Like, I want. There to be an interdependence, like especially because because of the fact that we move so much, I am their community, like we are each other's community. And I don't, it doesn't make sense to me, like other cultures and other countries don't have that rigid of a structure. I do think maybe that is a thing that we could let go of as the barometer, complete independence by 21.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  I also think that I've been informed in a little different way because when I left for college, I never went home. Right. And I knew that was gonna happen. I knew that I was a good soccer player. I knew that I was gonna be gone. Like, I never even went home for the summer. Like, I was just always training with the national teams, with the youth national teams. And so there is a part of me that knows that that was probably not healthy and probably not great for my overall connection, probably with my birth family. And there's another part of me that is so grateful because it forced me to take care

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  of myself and become this like force, this independent person who is, has a ton of agency. I'm not scared of much. Anything that comes through the door, I'm able to handle it.

• 1:01:53Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  And so I see our youngest, kind of, she's, she's in soccer, she's getting recruited right now. It's very exciting. And, and there's going to be a time where I know that if she really wants to go and signs with the college, I know that she's gonna come back less than the others. And that's gonna be hard on this one. And it will be hard on me too, but I will, I will have, I have walked that walk.

• 1:02:22Speaker 04

  That's why I was trying to keep them mediocre before she came. That was my whole job. Seriously, every time somebody, they'd be in gymnastics and somebody would say, they're getting really good, do you wanna do the, I was like, oh no.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  Let's go swimming.

• 1:02:33Speaker 04

  Like mediocre was the goal. I didn't have to give up my weekend. And then this one came and now they're being recruited.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Oh, Lord. Yeah. So it's interesting, you know, there's probably no right or wrong way necessarily.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  I do think that there is a wisdom in our children's generation and also a little bit a softness. Both. I think because of, because of parents getting more therapy and being more open to listening to what their kids have to say and talking more about trauma and being more in that kind of frame of mind. These children have more wisdom and they have more understanding than they see the world differently and they experience the reality of their world very differently than we did on television screens. They're doing it 24/7 on their phones.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  And I also think there's a part of the generation that our children are growing up in that is, it's not in the real world as much. And so it's scarier for them.

• 1:03:44Michelle Obama?

  Abby, I agree. I mean, I feel the feelings of wanting to be somewhere in the middle. It is a delicate balance because it's like you want your kid. I want my daughters to feel independent. I really want them to have the confidence to know that they can figure this stuff out, that life isn't rocket science, that it's a lot of common sense. And, you know, and some of that you're only going to learn by doing, which means you're going to have to fail. And I think a lot of parents are afraid of watching that failure. It is the hardest thing to do to watch your kids walk into a wall that you knew was there.

• 1:04:26Michelle Obama?

  And you told them not to walk into it until they hit it and get a lump on their head. They just won't learn it. That's a painful thing for us. If you keep your kids from that experience of bump in their head, you're robbing them of their own competency.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:04:42Michelle Obama?

  Right? They need to know you can bump your head and you can figure it out. Go to the doctor, put some ice on it, don't do it again. Let's talk about it after the fact. But as you get older. I shouldn't have to walk you through everything. I think it's a constant exercise of extending the leash. Mm hmm. You know, always err on the side of making it longer, not letting it go. Mm hmm. But it's for them to say, you like the bump on the head? You got this. Yeah. You're good, you know? And they, this, these aren't hard choices, but I think sometimes parents are, you know, holding on a little bit too long. Yeah. And with that said, I want my kids to know when things are really bad. Right. Right?

• 1:05:27Michelle Obama?

  And you're really in a bind, no, don't even question. Mm hmm. Because we know you work hard. We know who you are. We know that you're not trying to get over. We know you wake up every morning, giving it a shot, but life can be hard. So take some risks because you'll land softly here. Yes. But you can do this. Yes. I think that's always my message. And you start with Shira when your kids are five and two, you know? Start making decisions, no matter what they are, whether it's moving or staying, or you go to one school or you don't, you tell them, you can handle this. Yeah. You got this. Yes. And then you're watching from the gate, just making sure everything is okay, but they shouldn't know that you're watching.

• 1:06:12Michelle Obama?

  Ah, yes. You know? They shouldn't know, but you're watching, you know? But they should think, look at what I did, you know? I, I, I started a new school. I made a new friend. I figured out my own homework. I wrote my own paper. I got a C, but I didn't get an A paper because my mom wrote the other half of it. Yeah. You know, this was my C. It was my, is my victory, my failure. And I think parents making decisions that make sense for the whole, you know, and, and giving your kids credit for being resilient, letting them build that, that resiliency muscle. I think that's what readies them, right?

• 1:06:52Michelle Obama?

  For life, which is our ultimate job, not to have them in our basement. Because if that was, my kids would still be sleeping in my bed. They would not. They would. Barack is the only reason that, you know? They would not. I love sleeping with my kids. Mm hmm. Anytime that I got a big one, you sit on my lap, I'm just like, meh. So.

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  Same with Glennon, don't feel bad about yourself.

• 1:07:20Speaker 04

  No, I would still be doing it.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  We had two twin beds on the floor at the edge of our beds.

• 1:07:26Michelle Obama?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:07:27Speaker 04

  See, look at her face, look what you did.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  No, I'm not judging, they were just like, looking away.

• 1:07:31Craig Robinson?

  She's saying, why didn't I think of that?

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  She's like, dang it.

• 1:07:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I am picturing that. It's like, yeah, then they just roll over and be so nice.

• 1:07:40Speaker 04

  It's a good point, though, to figure out for Shira what Shira needs and wants. Because what you're talking about when you say all of that, I'm thinking, we do that because we want to still be needed.

• 1:07:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:58Speaker 04

  We do that because we're like, oh, I'm right now in the, my children are becoming adults and I, my role is completely different. It's the hardest, the hardest part of parenting I've done. And there is the tendency to create the codependent thing because you don't know who you are without that. And so it could be the most important thing to be creating a life where your kids know you're okay, so that your job actually can be to create resilient kids.

• 1:08:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 04

  Because some people, some of us get confused and think our job is to keep, not keep them needing me.

• 1:08:33Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:08:34Speaker 04

  And so to build the community that they need, that Sharon her partner need, and to build a career that she feels enlivened by and a life, then her kids can know she's okay and they'll be okay.

• 1:08:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Craig Robinson?

  No, that's, that's the perfect segue to, and I don't want Shira to be saying, ah, I wish I hadn't sent in this question because I don't know any more. What are our takeaways? What are a couple of takeaways for Shira to, to be able to go, she and her partner go back and at least formulate a plan for a decision?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  Sit down with your husband and figure out what you need. I mean, I think Michelle was saying that, write it down. Figure out what is the bottom line, what the cost is going to be, what the pros of that cost. And then go deep, deep down and figure out what you want. I think we're all afraid. To actually figure out what it is we really want. And we tend to stay in the I should lane. And so get brave enough to go figure out what it is. And it sounds like she's good at it because she's she's a handbag maker of her own. That sounds probably like something that she wanted. And and geographically, it's not about the geography. I don't want to take away from your guys' options.

• 1:09:58Michelle Obama?

  No, no, that's that's absolutely true. It's like the job of the couple, the family, the adults, is to make the adult decision, you know? And don't be afraid to be guided by what the adults need, you know? But don't parent out of guilt. Once you make the adult decision, don't feel sorry for your child because you did something that you wanted to do. Love them, give them stability, you know? Help them grow in their new community and their new surroundings, but still parent.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, and I would just say, what is success? Really talking to each other about what does a successful family? What do you mean by that? What do most of us don't even get to the differences of those ideas until 10 years in. But we've all been taught different things from our families of origin about what success means. I think sometimes people don't think enough about, yes, let's build community. But the community you're in right now is the two of you. So what does a successful dad? What does a good dad mean to you? What does it mean to be a good mom? Because those are loaded things that we don't pull apart. We need to like, you know, really get the mental load written down and really assign things. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do?

• 1:11:19Speaker 04

  The support often needs to be worked out within the family first, right? So I think there's beautiful conversations to be had. And anybody sitting down to figure out what success is instead of defaulting to the culture is going to be better off.

• 1:11:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  And there are many ways to build a family.

• 1:11:35Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:11:36Michelle Obama?

  There's no right answer. There really isn't. And you guys both said it. It is filled with roadblocks and stumbles. And even when they do all the pros and cons and lay it out, they may make a decision and it doesn't work.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:11:51Michelle Obama?

  And guess what? Change it. You know? You get a do-over. There are so many do-overs in life. There are few things that really, you know, ruin a kid or ruin a family. There's just, you know, if there's love. You know, if there's effort, right? And if there's trust, all the rest of it, you're just figuring it out. That's right.

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  Forever tries. We always say families forever tries.

• 1:12:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Speaker 04

  And make your little plan.

• 1:12:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:21Speaker 04

  We'll see.

• 1:12:21Michelle Obama?

  You're right. That's right.

• 1:12:23Speaker 04

  Just trust, trust me.

• 1:12:24Michelle Obama?

  That's what you thought, right?

• 1:12:26Speaker 04

  A year later, the plan will be different. I always think the only stability we really have is like you and me right here. That's the stability, you and me, and then me and Emma, and then me and Tish. It's like a direct, I'm looking at you, you're looking at me. That's the stability we have forever. The geography, even our family structure changed. Sometimes stability isn't what you need.

• 1:12:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:49Speaker 04

  To step into the next most beautiful imagination of your family. So, but that, that direct line, person to person, that's what has to be stable, I think.

• 1:12:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Craig Robinson?

  Wow. Well, Sheera, I hope this has been helpful. Has this been helpful for me?

• 1:13:05Michelle Obama?

  What are you gonna do? She's gotta send in and let us know. We need follow up.

• 1:13:08Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, we need some follow up for it.

• 1:13:10Michelle Obama?

  And then we can judge it. That's right. That's right. Terrible decision. Sheera, well, I don't know how you got that out of what we just said.

• 1:13:16Craig Robinson?

  I must say that the thing that I got, and this could be my coaching background, is you always have to be prepared to pivot. And not be afraid to pivot. And I'm hearing this from your family. I know it happened in our family. As parents, we've all had to pivot and the kids are better for it.

• 1:13:39Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Craig Robinson?

  So I really appreciate that on Sheera's behalf.

• 1:13:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Craig Robinson?

  Thank you for the wonderful.

• 1:13:46Michelle Obama?

  Abby Glennon, thank you, guys. Thanks for having us. For taking the time, being a part of this incredible conversation. I want to do it again and again. So, yeah. It's good to see you guys. Me too. Really. It's good to meet you.

• 1:14:01Craig Robinson?

  It's good to meet you. We have to talk about elite athletes.

• 1:14:05Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 1:14:05Craig Robinson?

  One day, just.

• 1:14:07Michelle Obama?

  Okay, we can do a show on that.

• 1:14:09Craig Robinson?

  We can see.

• 1:14:10Michelle Obama?

  An episode on that.

• 1:14:12Craig Robinson?

  We'll bring her around.

• 1:14:13Michelle Obama?

  We can heckle them.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Well, we just absolutely, I love this conversation. Thank you so much for having us.

• 1:14:18Craig Robinson?

  Thank you, guys. This is, oh.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:14:20Craig Robinson?

  It's great to meet you both.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Be well.

• 1:15:28Speaker 06

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.