Lecrae Grammy Award winning artist reveals path from streets to finding his purpose, cheating death, power of redemption, Christian beliefs and how he's become a cultural bridge to faith, turning lessons into lyrics.

“I feel like God had his hands on me because I shouldn’t be alive.” On this powerful episode of the The Pivot Podcast, the hosts sit down with Grammy-winning artist Lecrae for a raw and inspiring conversation about transformation, faith, and purpose. Lecrae opens up about his turbulent upbringing, sharing how a tough past filled with instability and street influences shaped his early identity. He reflects on the lessons he learned from the streets—both the survival instincts and the emotional scars—and how those experiences ultimately pushed him to search for something deeper. That search led him to Christian music, where he found not only faith, but a calling that would redefine his life. Lecrae also dives into his evolution as an artist, discussing the challenges of balancing authenticity, faith, and mainstream success in today’s music industry. From building a groundbreaking career in Christian hip-hop to using his platform to inspire and uplift others, he shares the mindset and mission that keep him grounded. From his musical hits to working in the studio with some of music's top artists, Lecrae carved a niche for him that has led to high success and a global impact. At its core, this conversation is about growth, redemption, and purpose—highlighting Lecrae’s goal to bridge worlds, impact lives, and prove that your past doesn’t have to define your future. Pivot Family, comment, like, hit the subscribe button, we enjoy hearing and learning from you- the good and the bad, we want to know! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Before this,

• 0:05Speaker 00

  there's this.

• 0:08Speaker 00

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• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  Lecrae Devonmore, or known by one simple name, Lecrae. He's a New York Times bestselling author. He's a Grammy award-winning artist. So don't just call him a Christian rapper. Although, that shoe does fit. But he's just more than that, too. His journey isn't a linear Christian journey. He's dealt with demons, stints in rehab, group therapy. And sometimes, it's probably best to be around others so you can find yourself. Well, you find yourself that way, and in your room with a small Gideon Bible. He takes us to the moment that music saved his life and the day he thought he was losing his mind. Versus with danger, but also salvation.

• 1:12Ryan Clark?

  Lecrae doesn't want to be one of those Christians that beat you over the head with the Bible, but he does want to live in a way where he's creating disciples. He's the best at what he does, but I had to ask, what's more important to him? The acceptance of Christians or the acceptance of the hip-hop world? That feels like an earthly battle versus an eternal battle. He talks about the way he relates in walking into sports teams. And one of their stars, an all-star, Boogie Cousins, he wasn't going to mention the name, but he did, immediately saying, nah, this ain't for me. That's the fight he's fought his whole career, and he'll never stop fighting.

• 1:53Ryan Clark?

  This is the pivot, and this is one of the world's ultimate pivoters. So tap in with me, Freddie T and Chan, as we welcome Lecrae to the show.

• 2:23Ryan Clark?

  What up, brother?

• 2:24Speaker 02

  You got it, man.

• 2:25Ryan Clark?

  Man, I feel like this been dang near 22 years in the making for me.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm telling you.

• 2:29Channing Crowder?

  The Lord got a big angel.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Hey, you know what I'm saying? He got the big angel. Ah, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:37Ryan Clark?

  Chan, they won all, lil'.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  I did about 10 pushups before I got in here because I knew I was gonna be with y'all.

• 2:42Fred Taylor?

  10 more than Chan.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:45Ryan Clark?

  I hit 40 the other day. You remember hitting 40?

• 2:47Speaker 02

  40 pushups? Straight through, boom, boom, knocked them out.

• 2:50Ryan Clark?

  Alright. In a row?

• 2:52Channing Crowder?

  Man, that's an old country strength, though. There ain't no weight room.

• 2:55Ryan Clark?

  Oh, man. Welcome to the show, Lecrae, man.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Feel good, man.

• 2:58Ryan Clark?

  Grammy Award-winning artist, New York Times bestseller, and actually, one of the first Christian gospel rap albums I ever had in 2004.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, you was rocking with me back then.

• 3:10Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, so it was, at that time, my two favorite were "You" and "The Truth."

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:15Ryan Clark?

  Yep. My kids didn't know certain songs had cursing until I retired, actually, because I would always buy the clean versions. But I was in a time in life, I was like, well, I wanted to pour, or whatever I was letting into my atmosphere, I wanted it to be about God. And so you were a huge part of that. So I've been growing with you since then. This is Chan and Crowder, Fred Taylor, Ryan Clark. Pivot fam, thank y'all for pivoting in with us. Speaking of that, one of my favorite songs.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:41Ryan Clark?

  I think it's, other than the church closed intro and the first mixtape, that they don't, they do not offer that on iTunes, by the way. So I would love for you to tell them not to.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  I'll break that up.

• 3:53Ryan Clark?

  "Welcome to America." Right now, it's a very relevant statement. I think at the end of the song, he was like, "I dominated in America. I'm amazed at America, but I couldn't get approval to stay, so they sent me away from America." And in 2014, to say that, and now see how relevant that is 12 years later.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:18Ryan Clark?

  What are your thoughts on how that connects?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  I'm a prophet, bro.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  You should have knew that. You should have known. Man, here's the thing. I think if you... So when I wrote the song, I was talking about multiple perspectives. Because at the time, I had a multitude of different audiences. You know what I'm saying? So every verse is me speaking from a different person's perspective. So I got the person who went to war. I got the person who grew up on the block. And then I got the person who immigrated to America. That's like the third verse. So the thing for me is I think a lot of times, people don't spend time in the trenches. They just... They live on whatever level they live on. You know, America, whether you want to believe it or not, it's a caste system. It ain't India. But there's just different levels that we have. And not... I'm not just talking about financially.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  I'm talking about the way people perceive you, or the way they treat you, or the way they think about you. So for me, writing that song for a kid who... I lived in San Diego, southeast San Diego for a season. And my grandma would take me to Tijuana. And, you know, I seen how people was living. I seen when people was fighting to get into America. I seen the struggles of people trying to stay in America. I had neighbors who allegedly, you know, didn't have their papers. You know what I'm saying? So I just know them struggles. I got artists on my label whose parents have been sent back to their country. So it's a muddy mixture. And I was just speaking from a perspective of like, man, this is a real issue that people got to deal with. Whether you... Wherever you draw your line in the sand, wherever you feel like, no, this is the way it should be.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Okay, but that still don't change the reality that people got to live through. You know what I'm saying? So I just think at the end of the day, man, you got to humanize people and you got to deal with that reality. And for me, I'm always... I'm always listening. I'm always learning. I'm always trying to, you know, throw my little perspective. Plus, if you say it in the song, people don't... Sometimes they don't... You say it online, they gonna clip it. And then they gonna run that back. Say it in the song, they like, ooh. That's a bar. That's a bar.

• 6:22Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 6:25Channing Crowder?

  But to that point, brother, like, I think life not makes the man. I always get uncomfortable around real religious people because...

• 6:32Speaker 02

  We bite.

• 6:34Channing Crowder?

  I'm spiritual, but I'm, you know, I'm not religious.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 6:37Channing Crowder?

  I believe, I know there's a higher power.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Well, why you uncomfortable? What do we do?

• 6:41Channing Crowder?

  Because I don't wanna cuss. I, you know, I don't wanna say nothing that's not in the Bible. And I say something, you be like, no, cuz John forty-six and Episcopal seventy-two and seven says that.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  So you feel like people just be wanna beat you up?

• 6:54Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, yeah, and they know when I talk about crazy stuff, talk about sex all the time.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  That ain't me.

• 7:00Channing Crowder?

  I've been locked up a bunch of times. But that's kinda, that's kinda the question is where, we just had Gigi on, I was asking him like, he's progressed in life.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:09Channing Crowder?

  But if he didn't go through or do what he did young, he would never be able to get where he is now. And you talking about knowing illegal, not doing, but knowing illegal things are going on.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  He's done illegal things.

• 7:22Channing Crowder?

  Probably being a part of some, I don't wanna put the man in business, I was gonna let him say it. But being a part of those illegal things and at those times, still believing in God and never questioning that path, did he put you in those situations to make you what you are now? Or did you put yourself in them situations to make you come around to where God wanted you to be?

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, this is a struggle I think I have. Cuz you started off with like, man, I feel, I get a little nervous around religious people. I think, one, people don't, people only really say that about Christians. Cuz if a Muslim dude was sitting here, you probably wouldn't feel that way, low key.

• 8:03Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, cuz I'm Christian, so I've, I've been reprimanded.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Okay, tell him, stop talking about all that sex, old line.

• 8:13Channing Crowder?

  I got three kids, I know about sex.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  So my thing with that is that I think a lot of Christians get bad PR. I think we get bad PR, like, because you get these caricatures, you get like Druski playing this character on. And it's like, yes, that is real, there's people like that, but that ain't, it's a whole bunch of little mom and pop pastors who just trying to get by. They ain't doing all that crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? And then the other thing, for me, I didn't grow up in church, you know what I'm saying? So I, I can't, I'm, I come out the, just a lower working class community.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  You know, my uncles was gang members. I didn't sold stuff I shouldn't have sold. I didn't dust. I didn't, the police threw me in the back of the car more times than I can count. So I'm used to being in the jungle. The church is the greenhouse. I understand the language in the greenhouse, but I'm more comfortable as a bridge from the greenhouse to the jungle. I'm a bridge, you know what I'm saying? I'm not, I'm not uncomfortable here until they like, you wanna go to the strip club? No, I'm good. I'm not uncomfortable here until they say, you, you gotta raise your hand, you gotta do this, you gotta. I'm like, I don't know all them rules. You know what I'm saying? But I always wanna be a bridge, so I love running into folks who think like you think, cuz I like to change they perspect, like, I'm, true story. I'll tell the story every so often because at the height of my career, it felt like, well, I was bubbling.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  You know, it's like, nah, not the height, but like, back when I did that first church closed mixtape. I got a little mixtape, right? It's back when we had CDs. I got mainstream producers on there. I got Kendrick Lamar who shouted me out at the beginning of my first song, like, shout out to my dude, Lecrae, cuz me and Kendrick was cool. I got this mixtape, bro. I get invited to come to the Sacramento Kings' practice, you know what I'm saying? Cuz the coach Bobby at the time, you know what I'm saying? He was believing, he's like, yeah, come to the prac, come to the. So I come and, and all the players are sitting down, coach like, hey, hey, hey, y'all, hey, y'all, I want y'all to meet my man. This is my man, Lecrae. He's the number one gospel rapper. I was like, I wish you wouldn't have said gospel.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  I wish you wouldn't have said that. Not cuz I'm ashamed of the gospel or ashamed of Jesus, but it's because that put a seed in their brain or whatever. Oh, this dude about to be lame. So then I got my mixtape, I'm like, man, I was just trying to get y'all this mixtape, you know? One dude, and I ain't gonna say his name, but Boogie took my CD and was like, man.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  He said, man, I don't wanna hear no gospel rap, bruh. And to me, that like, I was like, bruh, but you don't, like, you don't know, we relate more than you think we do. There's more we connect on than you probably think we connect on. And all I'm trying to do is be that bridge from where you come from to what God done done in my life. So I don't, I get it. Like, I ain't offended when people wanna, I'm gonna be me, so be you. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna be me. If I convince you that I didn't, I wasn't waving my finger at you, that was you.

• 11:07Channing Crowder?

  So I, I could go to Magic, but you ain't going.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  I don't want no wings.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Actually, you can bring me back some wings.

• 11:18Fred Taylor?

  So you will take some magic wings.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:22Fred Taylor?

  But when faith first entered your life, did you find peace right away? Or did it take a while for you to unlearn like a lot of, it's called survival habits?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  It shook me, you know what I'm saying? It shook me because I just didn't, I didn't get it. I was a skeptic. I just didn't believe, I thought faith was for weak people. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, in black homes, you're not really allowed to be atheist or agnostic. It's like, you playing around, boy. But I low key was, I just couldn't tell nobody.

• 11:50Fred Taylor?

  Okay.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? Because I was like, I don't believe this. This is lame to me. Like, y'all shouting and falling on the floor, like, eh, cut it out. You know what I mean? So, but then I was going through some real problems. You know what I'm saying? And I just didn't want to turn to God because I felt like that's a cop out. So when my problems started getting heavy, pregnancy scare at a seventeen year old, and then, you know, I'm doing some dirt, my partner get arrested, my cousin get arrested. I'm like, oh, shoot, like, I'm really going through it. I think that's when I was like, alright, I need to be more responsible. But then you try to be responsible, but it just don't, they just keep calling you. It's like, Pookie, like, it's calling. You know what I'm saying? Like, the drama.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  And man, I think for me, my partner, Jamin, he became a Muslim. He's like, man, come over to Islam. And I was like, nah, I'm gonna check it out, bro. But it was too many, I like pork.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  I like bacon, pepperoni, sausage. So the pig had you.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  And then it was like, it was like I was trying to stay away from the girls, but I just, I couldn't. You know, like, I'm trying in my own power. And one of my homegirls invited me to a Bible study, University of North Texas. So I go, and it's football players in there, and it's like, regular people, you know? I'm like, huh, y'all look like me. They was cool, but they wasn't telling me to stop what I was doing. They was just telling me to learn and come and listen. And man, over a period of time, I think one day just, I just got smacked. I just heard all this stuff I heard about Jesus that I didn't believe. Like, it's like the scales fell off my eyes. And it was like, oh, you really lived, you really died. I got to, and I didn't feel like I had to, like, try to be better. I just felt.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Like even though I was dirty, I was clean. You know what I'm saying? So that made me, it was like love motivated me to change. It wasn't like I was like, I gotta get myself better. It was like, I just didn't feel, I don't know. I didn't feel like doing the stuff. You know what I'm saying?

• 13:50Fred Taylor?

  You said that they didn't pressure you. Like they just welcomed you and necessarily didn't pressure you. At that moment, did you also learn what grace was?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Kinda, yes and no.

• 14:00Fred Taylor?

  Okay.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yes and no, I say I learned what grace was. Cause grace is like getting something you don't deserve, right? You know what I'm saying? I'm a earner. I've always been a hustler. I've always been an earner. You know what I'm saying? That's, that's just in my DNA. The reason why I am where I am is because of the Lord. But there's hustle in me too. So I've always been a hustler. And then my pops, you know, the war on drugs took him out. Both in the system and he became addicted. So he wasn't in my life. So I felt like deep down inside, I needed to earn his love. Earn the love, like I gotta, I'm not worthy because he left. He split on us. So I felt like I had to earn that. So it was weird for me to like be like, okay, but God, I ain't, you know, I done messed up. And, and God be like, yeah, it's grace. And I'm like, I gotta, let me do some pushups after this or something.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  You know, give me a chore or something. Cause I, you know what I mean? It was, that was a threesome, Lord. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, what do I gotta do?

• 14:57Ryan Clark?

  That was two of them.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying?

• 15:00Ryan Clark?

  That's the double scene.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  That was two in one. I got the two for one. So you gotta put some, what I need to do? Give me a penitence.

• 15:07Ryan Clark?

  Hey, you was, you was watching too many confessionals, right? Too many times people go to confessionals and they say, say seven Hail Marys and do this and do that. And when someone is telling you that's not the way Jesus Christ's love works for you. It is hard to fathom because we have human brains.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:25Ryan Clark?

  Right? And in my, and in my human brain, I know there are things you could do to me. That's gonna make me feel a way about you.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:30Ryan Clark?

  And have somebody say that that's not a thing when it comes to being a believer is difficult. And you know, you mentioned the grace, right? The, the getting things you don't deserve, right? There's also the mercy.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:40Ryan Clark?

  And him saving you from the things that you have earned.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 15:44Ryan Clark?

  And the things that you, you do deserve. Um, you know, I read something about you being in group therapy, right? And I'll tell on myself a little bit. I've never been someone that drank all the time. But when I would drink, I'd be like, I'm drinking to get drunk.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:00Ryan Clark?

  Right? And some things get out of control and I had a friend who was in AA and I was like, I just wanna go see. Right? And during this time, I wasn't really drinking and I got there and people started telling their story and I was like, hell nah, I ain't no alcoholic.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:14Ryan Clark?

  I was like, you bad off.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:16Ryan Clark?

  You know what I'm saying? And so you, you start to sort of rationalize, rationalize those things to yourself. When you were in group therapy, you know, you're, you're hearing these stories and you're now amongst these people in rehab. What were some of the revelations that came to you during that time?

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Boy, so this how it goes down. This, this, this is how that story goes down. I'm drunk one night. I'm at my homegirl's house. I don't, I'm not really attracted to her like that. I'm just hanging out with her, but her, she got a jealous boyfriend. I don't take threats lightly, so you know, he was like, man, what you over there doing with that dude? Da, da, da, da. And I'm drunk. I'm like, man, what? No, nobody wants your man. If I wanted her, I'd take her. You know, so I'm, I'm like, what?

• 16:58Ryan Clark?

  You popping off?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. He said, alright, alright. So he leaves. I'm over there talking to her, just la, la, la, la, la. You know, she like, man, you, you should go, cause he gonna come back and he gonna be tripping, da, da, da. I said, man, nobody worry about this dude, da, da, da. But, but it was like, you know, but it's all good. I ain't tripping anyway. So I leave, on my way out. He misses me, so I'm, I'm going out and as I go out, he's coming in. I don't see him, but he sees me. He starts shooting in the air. Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, wow. I'm like, man, what is that? What's going on? I don't know it's him. So the next day, she calls and she's like, man, he came, da, da, da. He was shooting at you and da. I said, oh, that was him shooting? So now, I'm hot. I'm like reverting to, you know, a different mindset.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, ain't nobody finna shoot at me. So I'm really contemplating doing something bad to this guy. I'm headed to go, you know, get a weapon of mass destruction.

• 17:54Ryan Clark?

  Damn, massive pressure.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  To go do something bad and I'm drinking and drinking and I'm, I'm drinking and I'm headed to go do something bad. At this point in time, like I, I am a believer, you know, I didn't, I didn't gave my life to the Lord. I'm just, I'm, I'm in a bad space. Something just hit me as I was driving, like you gonna ruin everything. You gonna ruin your life. You, you are just, you're a terrible person. All this is terrible. You might as well just take yourself out. Like you, this is it. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, man, what the heck is going, my brain just starts skizzing on me and I was like, I'm losing my mind. So then I, I pull over to the side. I'm like, yo, I'm going crazy. Like I think, you know, now I know I got some genetic mental health stuff from my grandparents and whatever. So I'm like, man, I'm, I'm tweaking.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  So I go in the hospital, hospital's literally right there by the grace of God. I walk in hospital, I say, yo, man, I'm, I'm, I'm bugging out. I'm about to do something crazy. And they like, are you drinking? I said, yeah, I probably had too much to drink, da, da, da. And it was like, I didn't realize that I had said so much crazy stuff to them. They was like, your choice is gonna be jail or rehab.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  So I was like, rehab, please. I would be going to rehab. So I'm sitting in there and as I'm, and I'm in rehab, you know, down the line and I'm listening to these stories of people who really, I mean, I drink a gallon of gin a day. You know, I done done this and done that. And I'm like, oh, oh, this is, this is serious. But at the same time, what I learned about myself was that you can't also compare yourself to other people either because you could still have an addiction or you could be a functional addict and not realize it just because you handle it differently than they do. I was still making bad decisions. I just wasn't making the same decisions that they was making. So I think that's what I learned.

• 19:46Ryan Clark?

  You start, you start to give yourself a little false grace.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:49Ryan Clark?

  Right? Like, cause, cause I'll be honest, I was sitting there and listening to those stories and I'd be like, shoot, I, I wanted to, I could actually go drink right now. Cause I ain't gonna be nowhere near as bad, as bad as he is. But there, there is something about those, those settings though, that they make you both sort of introspective and.

• 20:07Ryan Clark?

  You have to really also look at the outside of you and realize, okay, I can't compare myself.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 20:12Ryan Clark?

  To those people. When you got time to be quiet, though, and get out of there. I know Romans was

• 20:19Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 20:20Ryan Clark?

  A huge influence on you. Why was that particular book of the Bible such an important turning point for you? I think it was what a Gideon Bible?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, little bitty Bible, man. They took, they, so, you know, they take everything from you in this particular rehab center. You ain't got nothing, you ain't got no shoelaces, because they're like, you might do something bad to yourself or somebody else. So they get, you don't got no pens or pencils, just crayons. So I got crayons and a little bitty Bible. I'm like, man, you know what I'm saying? They don't even give me a big Bible. I might hurt somebody with the big Bible, I don't know, you know what I'm saying? And I'm in Romans, man, and, and, and one of the verses that I see is, you know, kind of to your point earlier, is like, shall we continue in sin so grace may abound? You know, in Romans 6, like, should you just keep on doing this so you can see how much grace you got? Like, no, you're not a slave to this no more. Like, you're actually free, you're just not living free. And I think that was a revelation for me.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  It was like, it was like, oh, I'm not a slave to this. I can really live free now if I want to, but I'm just choosing not to. It's kind of like, I always tell people, I used to work, I used to work at Albertsons. I don't even know if there's any more Albertsons in existence, I'm old.

• 21:29Channing Crowder?

  I don't remember Albertsons.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  They still got, okay, yeah, I used to work at Albertsons, bro. And then they built the Kroger across the street. And I was like, Kroger was paying better, the building looked better, and I was, I was high up at Albertsons, you know what I'm saying? I was doing my thing, and then I was like, the manager of Kroger was like, man, you got experience, you can come over here and work right away. We can give you a better deal, better raise, so I'm out. I, I'm young, I didn't even tell my Albertson, I just quit, I'm out. The manager, the front end manager didn't know that I had a new gig. So I'm walking by one day, and she's like, hey, you're supposed to be at work, you ain't been on the schedule, such and such and such. And I was like, I don't work for you no more. I got a better job. And I think that's what I had to tell my old self. It's like, man, sin, the devil, I don't work for you no more.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  I got a better job, you know what I'm saying? And that's kind of what Romans took me to in that time of my life.

• 22:21Ryan Clark?

  I love that.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:22Channing Crowder?

  And, bro, talking about rehab versus faith.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:27Channing Crowder?

  Because I was getting in trouble and all that stuff. You got the old, the old Baptist women. Maybe you got to go to church, baby.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:36Channing Crowder?

  I can go to church, I'm still about to go party at night. Like, I don't know.

• 22:41Ryan Clark?

  Same day.

• 22:43Channing Crowder?

  Same day. Same day. I can go to church on Sunday, and then I'm gonna hit the. Magic City Monday. I'm about to hit the forge, Sunday night, and I'm gonna hit Magic City on Monday. I'll go back to Bible study Wednesday. But like, let the God put his hands around you. If God has his hands around, why you need rehab?

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Okay, so the question.

• 23:04Channing Crowder?

  Good question, bro.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  That's a good question. The issue there is like, I think people get this idea that once you give your life to Jesus, that all of a sudden you this perfect person. Like, you got it together now. Like, I'm good. And I think it's not that, it's that you now have the ability, the power to walk a straight and narrow. You know, you can still make bad choices if you want to, but if you've really been changed, why would you want to? That's the question. So the real question is, you gotta ask yourself, am I really changed like I say I am, or am I just going through the ritual? You know what I'm saying? Because if you get hit by a Mack truck, bro, you not getting up the same. And I feel like God hit me with the Mack truck. I can't be the same person that I am.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  I do feel like God had his hands on me because I should have been dead. You know, I should have been dead a million other times. I just think he gave me a lot of grace. He gave me a lot of chance. I felt like Samson, you know what I'm saying? It was like, man, Samson was wildin'. And it was like, hey, Samson, listen, bro, I'm gonna give you one more shot. You gonna be blind pushing pillows in a minute if you don't get it staying together. So I just feel like he gave me, he gave me so many chances, bro. I understand where you coming from, because you might be talking about rituals and religion. I'm talking about more relationship. You dig what I'm saying? So like, ritual is when I come home and I know I want to sleep with my wife. I know I'm trying to get some action. Ritual is when I be like, here you go, here go some flowers, here go some candy.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Can I get some candy?

• 24:35Channing Crowder?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 24:37Speaker 02

  That's ritual.

• 24:37Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  But relationship is like, man, I've been thinking about you all day, babe. Like, you was on my mind, I missed you, man. I just want to spend some time with you, baby, you know what I'm saying? I done cleaned up the house for you, because I just thought about you, I got you some flowers. She like, oh, get your tail up in here. That's relationship, you know what I'm saying? So I think some people are religious with God. Like they, I'ma read my Bible, go to church and do the thing. But they don't really got no relationship. They don't like, man, you just being so good to me. I'm trying to do this, you know what I'm saying?

• 25:06Fred Taylor?

  What was that moment that told you you can take all of this that I've gone through, all of these experiences, put them together and then present them in the package of music?

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Man, music was like my salve, like my, just my savior in a lot of ways. You know, it was like a, it was my go-to. I come from a lot of trauma, you know? I done been physically abused. The men who supposed to be the men in my family all did me dirty. You know what I'm saying? Like whether that was, you know, beating me down, whether that was abandoning me. You know, I had a family member who was, she was close and supposed to be looking out for me. She molested me as a kid. My mom is a young mom, she trying to figure it out, but she didn't grow up with her mom. So she, so, so sending me to stay with my grandma for months at a time, that's not a thing to her. So I'm, you know, it's like, I got so much childhood trauma that music was my escape. You know what I'm saying? And I, you know, I never missed a meal.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  I was fed, I had clothes on my back roof over my head, but it was still a lot of trauma. And I would listen to Tupac, man. Tupac had this song called Daddy's Home. And then Tupac just became like my pops in a lot of ways. You know, I just would, man, he get me. And so hip-hop just became, just like, this is my family. You know what I mean? Hip-hop was my family and it was the way I could express myself. And it was the first thing I was good at. Like you see me, I'm 6'4", 230 pounds. You see what I'm saying? Like, I should be, everybody look at me, when I be in first class, they be like, you play for uh... You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, I didn't make it that route. You know, my coach looked at me and said, hey, man, I done coached some good players, some great players.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Great players play pro ball. You ain't great. You know what I'm saying? And so it was like, alright, you know, uh, this is, I ain't going, that ain't gonna be my route. This is my route. It wasn't even to make it, just to express myself and just to be something. And I always wanted to make music that said, this is who I am and how I feel. And so that's what I started doing. And when God changed my heart, it wasn't like, I'mma be a gospel rapper. Now, I didn't even know, like, I just was like, God changed me. I'mma start writing songs about how He changed me. That's really what, what, what took place.

• 27:15Ryan Clark?

  But talk about the transition, right? Because, like I said, down with real talk.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:22Ryan Clark?

  Right? And then I remember around church close, I was like, oh, this is different.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:27Ryan Clark?

  You know, like, you could, you could see there was growth in the person, but also growth in the artist. And the music started to feel more like what you would hear on the radio or what you would buy from other artists. And we'll get into the quote unquote secular conversation, because I know you love that word. What was the transition in your music where it did? Because I remember listening to early gospel Christian rap, right? And literally, there would be verses that were just scripture, right? You would almost feel like you were listening to a sermon. And then it almost moved into, we're gonna tell you, live for God in the relational way. We're gonna tell you to love God.

• 28:10Ryan Clark?

  We're gonna speak about certain principles of the Bible, but we're not gonna beat you over the head with it. And also, you could put it on in the car, if Channing's riding with you, he'll bop his head to it.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:19Ryan Clark?

  How did you start to make that transition?

• 28:22Speaker 02

  I lived in Memphis in the trap, and them kids was like, man, that lame, man.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Man, put that juicy on, man. Come on, man, that lame, bruh. Come on, hear that, man? Slaughting them up, man.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  That's real though. I was living in Memphis and I was mentoring young kids in the hood, man. And I really was like, I want to be effective. You know what I'm saying? I want to be effective. I don't just want to be beating them over the head with songs. I want to talk, what's your life like? What are you experiencing? What you going through? What you dealing with? And then let me show you how God can speak to that. You know what I mean? And that's kind of how I started right now. I got a lot of pushback because the OG Christian rappers that I found after I became a Christian, they was really about, it need to be a sermon. You need to scripture, scripture, scripture. And I tried. Like I tried, y'all. It just wasn't in me.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  I just was like, bro, this ain't me. Like, I'm growing up on Pac and Nas and, you know, listening to them pour their heart out in songs and talk about their life and their world. And for me, I'm like, man, I should be able to spend my time with God so much that when you prick me, I bleed truth, but not forcing it on you. And I feel like if I'm being honest, and you know, I'm just gonna be honest. I'm gonna say what people don't like to hear, but a lot of Christian movies, Christian music is not good because they so focused on getting the message out there. They don't tell good stories and they don't do good art. They just want message, you know?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  And they don't understand, like, God care about the craft and the story too. We all here because of a story. The whole story, the Bible is a story. So I was like, man, I need to tell stories. And people beat me up for that. They were like, ain't enough Bible in this song. Ain't enough scripture. Where your Jesus is at? Put some more Jesus on this. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, bruh, my life is a living testimony to this. You know what I'm saying? Let me just tell my stories and let it affect. And then that's when I saw people was impacted. People was like, bruh, this song hit me in a different way, bro. And it wasn't a song where I was like, in Genesis and Exodus, Leviticus. You know what I'm saying? It was a song where I'm just telling my story and they was connected.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 30:52Channing Crowder?

  Like you said, you're saved, but you know how the people talk on the streets. You was just doing the Memphis accent. Bruh, he like, yeah. Are you ever writing that you, you know, the Lord and Savior hit the switch? I know a word that rhymes with switch.

• 31:10Channing Crowder?

  You know what I'm saying, like, are you ever writing it like, ah, I'm gonna grab me a bitch?

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Hey, Chad, did you delete it? You typed it in your phone, you deleted out your notes? Nah, we can't say that.

• 31:23Channing Crowder?

  Cause you, I'm hearing you talk, bro, I've heard, I heard interviews with you before. You know how the boys talk, like you said, you can play both sides. I know it has to pop in your mind sometime.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  You got, okay, so it's so many, it's different phases of my journey with God. You, when you meet people in their first phase, they ready to beat you up about Jesus. They like, man, when you say, you, hey, babe, you know what I'm saying? You read the Bible, Chin and come here, let me tell you about the Lord. Hey, God is good, you know, and they just, it's, but that's like that with anything. When you first learn about something, you telling everyone, vegans, when you first get vegan, hey, put that meat down. Don't you touch the meat. Start eat, oh, you eating tofu this and tofu that. You know what I'm saying? It's just when they just be evangelizing for whatever it is they passionate about. It take people time to learn how to like, oh, like, and, and, and add this to my lifestyle. Cause it's more effective that way.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  I'm more likely to be vegan if you just always vegan and then you be around me and then you be like, I'm like, oh, you ate, oh, that's vegan? I didn't know that, like, what you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's interesting, like, oh, okay. Versus you being like, mm, that meat gonna kill you. You know what I'm saying? I say that to say, my first phase of walking with God, heck, no, I wasn't like that. I was like, very strict. I was in the studio one time, I ain't gonna say his name, but he, he a big, he a big rapper who, who found the Lord and he invited me to the studio. And he was rapping and he didn't know I walked in and he was in the booth and he was saying all kind of stuff, like some song, song. And you know, the Bible is my trigger, I'll kill a nigga and I was like.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  I'm like, what? So my younger self at that point in time was like, oh, this man is not of God. You know what I'm saying? Like, he's fake. But as you get older, as you grow, you learn, like, man, everybody's at different stages of their journey, at different stages of their walk. And, you know, some stuff that is meat, that you thought was demon meat, you realize, that's just meat. I won't eat in front of nobody else because they offended by that, but it's just meat. To me, and they're gonna hate this, but words, words are cultural. You know what I'm saying? What is the meaning behind the word is really the bigger issue.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  So if I'm like, if you say your name is Dr. Channing, and I'm like, but you're a doctor, and I'm like, okay, doctor. Like, I really low-key just cuss at you. You know what I'm saying? I'm not giving you grace, I'm making fun of you. But if I'm like, yo, man, that dude, that dude the damn doctor. It's like, oh. There's a reverence in that. Exactly. I'm trying to give them grace. There's a reverence in that. You see what I'm saying? Again, they're gonna crucify me for that, but at the end of the day, I get it. Language is cultural. I try to oblige by different cultures and like, hey, that's disrespectful to you, I ain't gonna do it. You know what I'm saying?

• 34:24Channing Crowder?

  But, no, I tell we had Kirk Franklin on and actually asked him somewhat of the same question.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. I will break your neck.

• 34:33Channing Crowder?

  Heard it like, you heard my mixtape.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  But to your point, my pastor, Pastor David Hughes at Church by the Glaze in Lauderdale. I went fishing with him, and I cuss. I'm a big time cussler. And every time I cuss, I'll be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And he told me, there's nothing in the Bible about cussing, it's about saying words with malice. It's a hard issue. Yeah, if you're saying it with malice, then that's negative.

• 35:01Channing Crowder?

  The N-word.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:02Channing Crowder?

  It can be said in two different ways.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 35:05Channing Crowder?

  Very disrespectful racist.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 35:07Channing Crowder?

  And you my boy.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:09Channing Crowder?

  And so he, he kinda explained it to me and that's how I took it. Is that how, is that how you feel about cussing people around you?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, for me, I don't care. Now, there's certain words where I'm like, I don't know, that's offensive. No matter, I don't know how you can spin that.

• 35:21Channing Crowder?

  GD, you told me that, you can't say that.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's offensive, like, you know. But then there's other terms where I'm like, man, it's culturally offensive, then I understand. There's certain things culturally we don't do when we go to other countries. There's certain, if a black cat crosses your path in America, it's like, whoa. If a black cat crosses your path in Asia, it's like, good luck is coming your way. It's cultural meanings. When we was in London doing a show, we was like this. And they was like, you can't do that. That's like a middle finger. And we was like, word? So we ain't trying to be offensive.

• 35:51Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  It's just different cultures, you know what I'm saying? So in American culture, especially church culture, it's like, certain words, it's like, don't say that. It's like, cool, I respect you. It don't mean I think it's a sin. You know, I just respect.

• 36:04Ryan Clark?

  It's also about intent and impact.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:06Ryan Clark?

  Right, and, and, and if you're truly, if your heart's in the right place, you accept the impact and try to refrain from the action.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:14Ryan Clark?

  Like you said, you know, you weren't trying to be disrespectful, but since y'all, since it's disrespectful to you, I'm gonna respect you and your space.

• 36:21Fred Taylor?

  With that, cause people expect you to be like this when you're a Christian. But like away from it all, like off camera, if people can spend a day with you, like what would, what would surprise them the most? Like your playlist or, you know?

• 36:35Speaker 02

  I think, well, it depends on which, which person you're talking to. There's some super Christians out there, I call them super Christians, cause I be like, y'all just telling me when y'all get to heaven. Cause they, I can't do right by them. I can't do right by them. So they would actually be shocked that I do regular Bible studies, that I be mentoring my, my family members, that I share my faith with people, that I'm praying over my wife, that I'm involved in my church. They would be shocked, you know what I'm saying? But then you got some people who like, man, he just like, he cool in the fact, bruh, cool. You're like, oh, you know, I mean, hang with Shannon, Shannon, man, I like, bruh, bruh, cool. They would probably be shocked at like how much like them I am. You know what I'm saying? Like, bruh, I thought he was gonna be kinda like, you know what I'm saying? Like, they would be shocked, like.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Oh, you listen to this, or you watch this, or you you know this, or you. Because to me, I understand, like, in order to reach culture, you gotta experience culture. You know, I don't get washed over by it. I'm not just sitting here like bathed in, you know, all the negative things going on, but I'm aware, you know what I'm saying? So I think people will probably be shocked, like, oh, Buddy Cool, I didn't realize he was, you know what I'm saying? So I got a line, you know what I mean? I got a line, but.

• 37:47Ryan Clark?

  But isn't that the kind of juxtaposition that you're in? Right? Because, and and I don't know why I think you always have to explain this to, you call them super Christians?

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:58Ryan Clark?

  You know, hey, the the same Bible that you're trying to beat me over the head with, you remember who Jesus sat with?

• 38:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:05Ryan Clark?

  Right? You remember who Jesus communed with?

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:07Ryan Clark?

  And he's the only perfect being.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:10Ryan Clark?

  We've ever known. And and it's hard to explain those things because they try to treat you like you're Luke Warren.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:16Ryan Clark?

  Right? They they they try to treat you like you got one foot in, one foot out, when for me, and I think early on in your career, I was like, I have to listen to this.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:28Ryan Clark?

  Right? Like, I have to, like, this is what's gonna, I gotta put this on instead of putting on Wheezy, because I know what it does to set my mindset in the morning.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:38Ryan Clark?

  Right? Or on a Sunday, I tell my son, nah, you can't play that until, you know? And then when you made the transition, I was like, oh, I could listen to this Monday morning, I could listen to this Tuesday night, right? And it was like, I now feel reached. But it's the same thing about being able to go talk to Channing. Right? The pastor or the super Christian may not be able to have a conversation with him, but if he's talking about lust or something like that, you can say, no, I understand it.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:01Ryan Clark?

  Right? And you're not immediately delivered from that just because you give your life to Christ. How much of your ability to relate has allowed you to connect with other people and be that bridge to Christ?

• 39:15Speaker 02

  That's why I don't listen to nothing they got to say. Because I'm like, well, you got your mission, I got mine. I can go places you can't go. I can say, I can connect with people you don't connect with. For me, relationship is everything. If you off putting, as soon as I meet you, I'm not gonna wanna build no relationship with you. You know what I'm saying? The first thing, Channing, the first time I meet Channing, and he like, he cussing, I'm like, bro, your spirit is is is is bad to me, and you need to repent. Like, that's the first thing I say.

• 39:41Ryan Clark?

  He not talking to you no more.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's like, oh yeah, well, forget you. I don't know this dude, right? And I, and I think it says something when you can look at a person and say, man, yeah, I know where you are. I know where you been. I actually been there. And I walk with you. You know what I'm saying? I walk with you. That's changed everything. That's made people reach out to me more behind the scenes. Is they like, man, buddy, relatable. And I'm not giving them nothing false. I'm not telling them like, you know, yeah, man, you can sleep with your girl and love God at the same. It's all good. I'm not telling them that. I'm telling them like, oh, you in a place where this don't bother you. And I'm not finna sit here and tell you that you're a terrible person.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  I'm finna sit here and tell you, hey, man, when you tired, I'mma be right here. You know what I'm saying? I tell people that all the time. I told, I told one of my, my partners, man, I said, hey, bro, I don't care if it's four o'clock in the morning, you got a stripper in your bedroom with cocaine on her backside. Call me. Don't you ever be ashamed to call me. And he was like, man, that scenario too familiar.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  But, but somebody gotta be available. You know what I'm saying? If, if everybody feel like, ah, no, I can't talk to him because he gonna judge me.

• 41:01Ryan Clark?

  Then they not gonna, they not gonna reach out to you. What was the most difficult space or time in this, in this journey for you since you found Christ? Of criticism, right? Because it almost, I'm gonna say to me, following you, it felt like as you got more popular, right, the, the K dots and the people recognizing you for your artistry, right? It felt like the other side, the Christian side started to say, oh, well, there, he's communing with, with the other side. There, there's no way he, he's of us. How difficult did that get for you?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  It got bad. It got so bad, I was like, I'm done with Christians, period. But they not all the way wrong. So here's what I say. If you just look at the history of people who say they love God and then they get a little fame or a little money. They do tend to fall by the wayside. You know what I'm saying? Like, and I think that's not a, it's not a Christian problem. It's a human issue. You know, y'all got, y'all done played with people who get a little money in family. Like, oh, Buddy different. Well, you know what I'm saying? Buddy done changed. I think that's just, that's a hu, that's the natural human tendency is to like, start to feel yourself.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  And it was a perfect cocktail for me, cuz I did have the number one album in the country, Be My Room Five, got the Grammy, touring all over the nation, getting six-figure checks to do a concert. And so if you mix that cocktail with Christian saying, "He fake." I'm like, well, should I be fake then? Well, I'll be fake then. Y'all don't love, y'all don't got no love for the West Coast? Y'all don't love Snoop Dogg? You know what I'm saying? I'll be fake then, if that's what you want. Because I'm, it's like a perfect cocktail. And I feel like, you know, the enemy was like, oh, yeah, I like this. They don't like you. You know what I'm saying? And now I'm getting, you know, yeah, I'm on a song with Todd Dollar sign.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  I'm in the private jet. You know what I'm saying? Oh, y'all don't like me? Forget y'all, I'ma go this way. And then add another explosive into that cocktail is, it's 2016. It's a new political regime. It's police brutality. It's black people getting killed every five seconds on television. And then I say, you know, I'm talking to my, my white brothers and sisters and I'm saying, "Hey, y'all, this got to stop." And they like, "Shut up and preach the gospel. Stop being political." And I'm like, "Oh, word? So y'all think I'm fake? Y'all think I'm being political? And I'm over here getting money? Well, forget all y'all then." And it was like, I felt like the devil was sitting there like, "Oh, yeah, baby."

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Got him now. Got him, baby. Got him right where we wanted. And so it was just the worst season of my life, I'm gonna be honest with you. You know, worst season of my life, driving a late model, expensive car, pulling up into a million dollar home, and depressed, and feeling like, well, God, I don't even know if you real. You know what I'm saying? And that's kind of where I was at. I was like, if they love you, and they love you, but they don't love me. But they don't love me. I don't want to be nothing, I don't want, I don't want nothing to do with these folks. So I guess, you must not be real. And if I'm being a hundred percent honest, this is me being, telling on myself, for real. I think, when you struggling, and you want to wild out, you don't want God to be real.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  Cause then you got to be culpable or responsible for your actions. You gotta be accountable. You gotta be accountable. So it's easier to be like, to let that hurt fester and be like, yeah, he ain't real. So, I'm finna roll up this b- you know what I'm saying? Like, we getting drunk tonight, big dog. And that was the, that's where I went. How'd you get out of that?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Uh, grace, you know what I'm saying? God was so gracious to me, man. I, I, I remember, you know, being in the darkest place in my life. I had everything you could ever imagine, but I'm in the darkest space in my life. I'm on the road. I remember waking up, we was wilding, like, on a bender. Or I was, I don't know, I ain't blaming nobody else, let's just say I was wilding. And then I woke up the next morning, and I was like, man, this, who am I? You know, like, what is up, what's down, what's left, what's right? If God is real, cause I'm a thinker, so I'm like, if it ain't no God, it ain't no purpose. And if it ain't no purpose, I don't have no purpose.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Cause we just a bunch of animals, just a bunch of molecules, living for nothing. So if we don't have no purpose, then I'm purposeless, and I started getting depressed. Just like, man. We just here for no reason. We might as well just kill each other. We might as well just rape, steal, plunder, do whatever. Nothing matters. I start spiraling into this dark place and my brain back to the mental health stuff. My brain couldn't handle that weight. And so I found myself in a clinical depression. My brain just shut off. And I was like, hey, something wrong. I mean, I didn't know what it was at the time. I didn't have language for it. But I remember trying to turn on, turn on the game and I was trying to watch the game. And I was like, I'm not excited about this. I'm not, I'm not even entertained.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  I'm just like, I remember going to get some, I was like, I'm not hungry. I'm not thirsty. I started losing weight. I was like, oh, I'm depressed. You know what I mean? I didn't have a term for it. In that depression, it was so bad. You know, I canceled all my shows. I was like, yo, I can't do nothing, bro. I'm in a dark space. I don't know what's going on with me. And I didn't want to pray because I was like, nah, I ain't praying. I ain't going back to that. You know what I mean? But I sat in my, in my closet one day. You know, I felt like God was like, hey, man, just open this Bible up. And I was like, it's the last thing I want to do. I'd have been wilding out here. I ain't finna be that dude go running back like, I'm sorry, God, I messed up. So I went to open that Bible, man, and I start reading about Peter.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  And when Peter denied Jesus three times and Jesus looked at him after the third denial and Peter just broke down crying. But Jesus wasn't looking at him saying, man, you lame. He was looking at him saying, I knew you was gonna mess up. I still chose you. You know what I'm saying? Get up. And I felt like that's what God was saying to me. Craig, I knew this. Now get up, go feed my sheep. And I broke, you know? I just broke in my closet, man. And then I called the homies and I said, hey, bro, this one I'm dealing with. This one I'm going through. I need help. You know what I mean? Thank God I had good friends. Told my wife, I said, look, this one I'm on. And she was like, all right. You know, and everybody rallied around me until I got healthy. Man, it's a beautiful story, man. That was beautiful. Ah, you fly.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  I got silly questions.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  So, so what kind of weed was you smoking?

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Was it? Did you roll papers? He was like, did you roll papers? I will say this. I hadn't smoked in a long time when I went on my little smoking bender and weed had changed a lot. We'd had changed a lot since I was a smoker.

• 48:14Channing Crowder?

  Making it a laugh.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  I was like, you mean?

• 48:20Speaker 02

  He was like, he was like, smoke dog in the chicken coop.

• 48:23Channing Crowder?

  In the chicken coop.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  I said, man, this done changed a lot, but you know, man, you know, you go through it and you own it. I'm the type of person, I'm gonna follow my sword, you know what I'm saying? I'm not, I'm not gonna sit here and act like I had it all together, you know, and all the stuff about, I ain't gonna bring that up, but when, you know, going to celebrity parties and all that kind of stuff, it's like, bruh, listen.

• 48:43Channing Crowder?

  And you talk, you talk about Ty Dolla Sign, Love Pop, uh, Snoop, you a west coast dude, but. We in Atlanta, so Jeezy, T.I., Troy, all the dudes I grew up on. Can't, you can't ask some of them dudes to jump on the, jump on the beat.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:59Channing Crowder?

  Can you ask everybody?

• 49:01Speaker 02

  He's had some of them.

• 49:01Channing Crowder?

  I know a couple of them, but.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Me and Tip just got nominated for a Grammy.

• 49:04Channing Crowder?

  But I'm saying, but have you ever asked somebody to jump on the beat and then you listen to the verse and be like, hey, I can't, I can't, I can't put this out.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  This was crazy. They, they have a different level of respect for me, you know what I'm saying? When, like, it's a, because I take the, the craft serious. They like, oh, you really be rapping. So you not, you not just here trying to make some like Jesus beats. You really like, you know, most of the time, like when I first started, people be like, bruh, you Christian, bruh? You sure you wanna just do Christian, bruh? You nice, bruh? You know what I'm saying?

• 49:37Channing Crowder?

  That's a compliment though. That's a compliment.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  So I think it's a respect thing, but then it's also, they see the, now, I will say this too. I ain't talking about Tip or none of them, because it's a respect thing with them, but if some of them early on, they just saw the success. You know what I'm saying? We built the, the number one independent label in, in Atlanta, you know what I'm saying? Fully independent, like, I ain't saying, I know it's QC's and everybody else, but we don't, didn't have distribution. We doing it all independently, you know, platinum albums, gold albums, you know, over and over again. So I think they saw that and was like, well, shoot, I, I don't need to jump on this bandwagon too. You know what I'm saying? But outside of that, it's been respect. It's been big respect, and I think that's really what it comes down to.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  The BET cipher back in the day too, let people know like.

• 50:25Channing Crowder?

  He can rap rap.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Oh, buddy can rap, you know what I'm saying? So I think it's just been, now, we done had a couple of characters where it's like, bruh. Now, you know good and well, bro. We ain't finna... This... Why would you give me this song? Why would you... Like, "Cray, I got the song for you. We gonna do this record." And I'm like, "Wow." Now, what would make you think?

• 50:44Channing Crowder?

  You can't jump on Trap or Die.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Like, what? You know what I'm saying?

• 50:47Channing Crowder?

  Could you, like, could you, could you get on, you know, one of those? Could you get on Trap or Die? Could you lay a verse down?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  'Cause here's the reason why. It's because there's so much honesty in them projects. That there's a weight, there's, is a connection point. So, when Jeezy says, when Jeezy says, "And when I get to hell, yeah, right, I'm gonna fry." Then I could literally come back in and say, "I understand why you feel like that." "I felt the same way." You know, some, some, and, you know, and just, you, it's just authenticity. I can, listen, I got some trap stories for you. You know what I'm saying? So, I think it's just being authentic. Me and Waka did a song, we was talking about the other side of the game, where it's like, everybody talks about, you know, put, sell into work, but nobody talk about sitting behind them, them walls. Nobody talks about losing your mind and them nasty meals,

• 51:36Speaker 02

  and then your girl messing with some other dude, and, you know what I'm saying? You getting bedbugs, you know, biting on you, and, you know what I'm saying? It's like, you gotta, you sleep with one eye open. Like, that's not fun.

• 51:47Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? But nobody writes those songs. We only write the songs where we glorify the other side of the game. So, you know, it's like, that's, that's more so my perspective on it.

• 51:56Fred Taylor?

  Before I ask you this question, I do wanna give you your flowers. For the Grammy years ago, for Gravity, Anomaly. They do a number one on the Billboard, 200.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:05Fred Taylor?

  And your work with Healthy Hip-Hop. Platform for Kids, I, I do wanna give you flowers for that. But we always ask our guests their biggest pivot in life. That's the one moment you can look back on and say, "Because it's happened to me or for me, I am who I am today."

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Whew. I mean, I...

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Man, that's a good question. I'm, I'm, I'm in a, a massive pivot now, which, so let me, let me speak to that first, then I'll speak to the, the biggest pivot. The pivot I'm in now is, man, I think a lot of artists, especially rap artists, man, they don't understand, it's like athletes. They don't understand how to go from where they were to this new version of themselves. And this pivot of not having post-syndrome. I really did... Start a record label, you know what I'm saying? I really did create a podcast, Shout Out To The Deep End Podcast. You know, we looking at y'all, we learning, you know what I'm saying? But it's doing well. I really did start an app. The app's called Reconstruct You, where we help people transition into growth, you know?

• 53:05Speaker 02

  And these are real tools that have proven successful. And I can look back and say, wow, I'm not just a rapper. So when I'm sitting in first class and they like, you play ball? Nah. You rap? Yeah. Nah, I bump that. I'm an educated businessman. I'm an entrepreneur and I can own that, you know? I made that healthy pivot. So that's one. But the biggest pivot, I would say, honestly, bro, and this is no, I'm not trying to be cliche. But man, being downtown Atlanta at this Impact Conference and hearing that God wrapped himself up in human flesh, got on that cross and breathed his last and resurrected from my raggedy self. That changed the course of my life.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  I would not be where I'm at today had that message not impacted me in a way that it did.

• 53:55Ryan Clark?

  I have a last question. What has filled you more? The acceptance of Christians? Or the acceptance of the hip hop community that is non-Christian?

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Ah, for a kid who came from not being accepted and thought acceptance was everything. All I ever wanted as a kid was to be accepted by the hip hop community, right? It's all I ever wanted, all I just wanted, y'all love me. And then I got to a place where I realized like, it's not real love. It's, we accept you, we respect you, but we not really here for you in all of the ways that you think we are. To be accepted by my Christian brothers and sisters was probably the most powerful thing ever. And I'm not talking about the super Christians, you know? Like, they never gonna accept me probably. I'm never gonna be good enough for them.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  God bless you, tell on me when you get to heaven. But to be embraced by people, and I'm talking about like, I mean, I'm sitting here with y'all, man. Y'all, you know what I'm saying? Like, I look, I look and see you doing your sportscasting and I see my book behind you on the shelf and people screenshotting and texting to me all the time and I'm just like, man, that's dope, bro. Like, to be a part of a family that's way bigger than I could have ever imagined, man, that's, that's mind blowing, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm honored to be a part of that family.

• 55:26Ryan Clark?

  Nah, man, listen, I've been, like I said, man, you know, we've texted back and forth about a lot of stuff. You know, when I sent it to our producer, I was like, I really think we could get him on the show. And she sent it to everybody. I just told them how excited I was, how much it meant to me, how much of my journey and my walk in faith you've been a part of. And I just, I appreciate you, I appreciate the realness. And I think sometimes the non-super Christians need to hear a Christian say that just because you give your life to Christ doesn't mean he paves a road for you of perfection. And it's the ups and downs that draw you closer to him. And so, man, thank you so much.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 56:05Ryan Clark?

  Appreciate you, pal.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  And you are huge, though, by the way.

• 56:09Ryan Clark?

  Hey, when he walked in the door, I was like, look, he tapped, he's like, man, you been working out.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Man, he'd be a hell of a receiver, wouldn't he? Boy.

• 56:24Speaker 05

  Hopefully my son get it.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Get on that goddamn kneecap.

• 56:26Speaker 05

  Hopefully my son got it.