151: What Healing REALLY Looks Like with Dr. Richard Schwartz

What if the key to healing is understanding the different parts of yourself? Sabrina Zohar is joined by Dr. Richard Schwartz, the creator of Internal Family Systems (IFS), to explore how IFS therapy can lead to profound emotional healing. In this video, Sabrina shares her own healing journey, confronting her inner critic, navigating trauma, and embracing personal growth. Together, they reveal how understanding and healing your inner parts can help you find true inner peace and self-compassion. Get Introduction to Internal Family Systems by Dr. Richard SchwartzStuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! If you've ever felt like you're too much, not enough, or always chasing validation in dating or relationships, the Self Love Course gives you the tools to rebuild your worth from the inside out HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Somebody asked me how I define myself and I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others. Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox intense and the new sweet chemistry by Prada.

• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Happy Friday, babes. I'm so excited. Today we have such a special guest. I'm coming apart at the seams. We have Dick Schwartz here. We have the creator of IFS Partswork, what you hear me and all of our guests talk about all the time. We have the person that created it and he is here today. And we have live coaching. He coaches me. We go through some inner work, some parts work and I'm so excited. Guys, thank you so much for everything. As always, if you need anything, everything will be in the link in show notes. If you want to join a course, work one-on-one, whatever you guys need, we are here for you. And I'm just so grateful. Thank you, guys, as always. Don't forget, rate, review the show. Please, please leave a comment. Anything at all is so, so helpful.

• 1:43Sabrina Zohar?

  And just remember, the language that we speak is the only thing I ask. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Well, hello, Dick. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show. I'm so excited to have you.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Thank you, Sabrina. I've been excited for this, so really glad to be here.

• 1:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Me too. And now, okay, so for a lot of the folks that come in, they listen every week. They have heard me at nauseam talk about whether it be IFS, Internal Family Systems, or Partswork, or having Britt on talking about the inner critic and then all the parts, right? But I think before we even dive in, because there's so many things I want to talk to you about, I would love to learn more about you, more about... How you came about with everything that you came about and just a bit more about your background so we can get to know you a little bit better.

• 2:25Speaker 03

  Okay, depends on where you want, how far back you want me to go because I'm very old, but.

• 2:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's go to where we are with professionally in the career and then we can go from there.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Okay, so I trained as a family therapist, Maryland family therapist, I have a PhD in that. And I was all Gaga about systems thinking and how to understand a kid in a family who's having a symptom, not as just an individual entity, but how dynamics of the family were pushing him to into this protective role of either the family or himself. And that that wasn't who he was and that the mistake is to diagnose him and say he's got some illness. But what we were finding was is we could shift these family dynamics, he would be freed up and he could be more who he was directly. And so I was very excited

• 3:16Speaker 03

  about that as a family therapist in those days was very revolutionary. And I was one of the most obnoxious of the revolutionaries. So I seriously avoided studying interpsychic stuff and thought we could change everything by just reorganizing these external systems. And went out, was in a department of psychiatry in University of Illinois, Chicago and decided to try and prove that. And so I gathered together 30 bulimic kids and their families together with a colleague named Mary Jo Barrett and tried straight family therapy and found that it wasn't happening, that these kids continued to binge and purge despite

• 3:59Speaker 03

  how well we had reorganized their families. And out of frustration, I just started asking them, why, what's happening? And they started talking this language of parts. And they would say some version of when something bad happens, this critic starts to attack me inside. And then that make that goes right to the heart of a part who feels empty and alone and worthless. And that feeling is so scary.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  That the binge comes in to take me away from it and turns me into a kind of unfeeling eating machine. So I'm kind of numbed out from those feelings. But then the critic attacks me for having binge. And people in the outside world attack me for having binge. And then that goes right to the heart of that worthless, empty place. So the binge has to come back. And as they're describing this, I'm thinking, this sounds similar to what we've been studying in families, these circular sequences of interaction among the different family members. And so I got intrigued and I began to try and put some systems thinking into this inner work. And also, at that time, I was making the mistake most everybody still makes, which is to assume these parts were what they seemed to be.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  So the critic was some kind of internalized parental voice and the binge was an out of control impulse. And when you think them that way, you're going to try and get your client to control them or fight with them or something like that. And I was doing that and my clients were getting worse. But I didn't know what else to do until one client who, in addition to all that, cut herself on her wrists. And by then, I had learned what's called the Gestalt Open Chair Technique. So I was having clients talk to these parts who they would imagine sitting in a chair across from them. And I was talking to these parts. And so one session, I decided I wasn't going to let this cutting part leave the office until it had agreed not to do it to her. And I come, open the door to the next session. She's got a big gash down the side of her face.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  And I just totally emotionally collapsed and spontaneously said, I give up. I can't beat you at this. And the part said, I don't really want to beat you. And that was a turning point in the history of this work because I shifted out of that kind of controlling, let's get these symptoms to stop, into just spontaneously being curious. And I said, why do you do this to her then? And the part started to tell me the history of how when she was a child being abused, it had to get her out of her body and contain the rage that would get her more abuse. And the cutting was a way to do that. And I Now I shifted, not just not curious, but I have kind of appreciation for the heroic role it played in her life.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  And I could convey that to the partner, and it broke into tears because everyone had hated it and tried to get rid of it. Finally, somebody was listening to it. And as I got that and tried a similar process of just me getting curious or my clients getting curious about these scary parts, we would get the same response. They would appreciate, finally, somebody's listening. And they would all have these heroic stories of how they desperately were trying to protect my client. And as I got more and more clients do this, it became clear that they weren't living in the present, that they were stuck in these trauma scenes in the past where they got this role of being this big protector.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  And that they also carried the emotions and beliefs that had come into the client during those scenes and those traumas, what we call burdens. And that those beliefs and emotions were organizing the way they were operating. So forty-something years later, thousands of clients later, the basic assumption is we're all multiple personalities. And that that's a good thing because we're born with all these little sub-personalities that all have valuable resources and talents to help us navigate life. But that, just like the kid in the family I was talking about, trauma and attachment injuries and things like that

• 8:03Speaker 03

  forced them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be quite destructive, even though they might have been necessary another time in your life when they're stuck in the past. And then as I was hearing all this, as a systems thinker, I'm trying to map out this territory. And it became clear that some of them, before they got hurt, were these inner children we love to be with because they give us so much great energy and playfulness and love other people and their innocence and their sort of creativity and joy, but they're the ones who are the most sensitive. So they get hurt the most by these traumas.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  So they take on the burden of terror or of emotional pain or of worthlessness, and they get frozen in these scenes in the past. And once that happens, they have the power to overwhelm us with those feelings. And so we try to get away from them, thinking we're just moving on from the bad feelings and the memories, not realizing that in doing that, we're locking away our most precious qualities, simply because they got hurt. So these we call exile parts. And when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate. The world seems more dangerous. So many things could trigger them. If they get triggered, it's like this, this rush of raw,

• 9:29Speaker 03

  fiery emotion comes flooding out of your gut and is going to take you out. So to deal with that, other parts are forced out of their naturally valuable states to become protectors. And some of them protect you by organizing your life so that your exiles don't get triggered again. So maybe they never let anybody close enough to hurt you like that. Or maybe they're trying to make you look perfect so no one rejects you. Or maybe they get you to achieve a lot, so you get accolades to, to counter the worthlessness and so on. Maybe they make you take care of everybody, so they depend on you and don't leave you, but they don't let you take care of yourself. So these we call manager protectors because they're trying to manage everything

• 10:14Speaker 03

  and control it and please everybody. Doesn't always work. Exiles still get triggered. So we, most of us have a set of other parts who immediately go into action to get you higher than those flames of emotion or to douse them with some substance or to distract you until they burn themselves out. And these we call firefighter parts, protectors. And most of us have a kind of hierarchy of them. And if that one doesn't work, you go to the next. But in contrast to the managers who were planful and, you know, the ego quote unquote, these parts are impulsive, reactive. They don't care about the damage to your relationships, to your body.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  They know they just got to get you away from that feeling, or you might die. That's what they believe. So anyway, that's the map of the territory. It's pretty simple. Protectors and exiles. One class of protector managers, the other firefighters. But the big deal about IFS is that as I was mucking around with all this and try to do what I was doing as a family therapist, which is to have my client dialogue. Once I got hip to the fact these parts aren't what they seem and they deserve to be listened to, I might be trying to get you, Sabrina, to listen to your critic rather than hate it. And you're going okay, but suddenly you hate it.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  And things break down. And it reminded me of family sessions where I'm having two family members talk to each other. And then a third one jumps in siding with one against the other and everything goes south. I thought maybe as I'm having Sabrina talk to her critic, a part who hates the critic has jumped in and is doing the talking. And so I would ask you, could you find that one who doesn't like the critic? And just ask it to stay out of this until we're done. And most people can do that. And then they're back. And as I was doing that with other clients, would like this other person would pop out suddenly as I got these parts to open space and would have all these great qualities and would know how to relate to the target part in a healing way.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  And so they, you know, where they hated it at first, you get that to step out. Suddenly they're, they have compassion for it, for your critic. Or they are calm relative to it, or they have confidence relative to it. Or just curious, just curious about why do you call me names all the time? And in that state, the part, the critic, or whatever part we're working with, would relax and would share its secret history of how it got the job. It's that, how much it doesn't like having to be your critic, but it feels like it's got to do that or you might get hurt. So, and then I could have you. Extend compassion to it and appreciation and learn about what it protects and maybe even

• 13:06Speaker 03

  go to the parts, the exiles that it protects and heal them, and then it can be freed up from this role. So there's a model of transformation. All these parts aren't what they see and they want to transform, and this is a way to do it. And again, the big deal is that this self that I'm talking about with those C-word qualities I mentioned so far and four others isn't everybody, can't be damaged, and is just beneath the surface of these parts. So when they open space, it pops out spontaneously. And that's a big deal. And that's counter to a lot of what other theories say about who we are. So anyway, I didn't know if you asked for all of that.

• 13:44Sabrina Zohar?

  I loved it. Thank you. It's better than me asking you a question, you going, yep, and then being like, okay, well, at least we've got 45 minutes left of that.

• 13:51Speaker 04

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• 14:20Sabrina Zohar?

  It's interesting. I started getting really emotional when you were talking about your client that was cutting herself. And not because I'm not having the same situation, but I think for me, at least my wound all my life was like, I'm too much. I'm not good enough. Narcissistic father who was always leaving of like, I'm too much, but I'm not enough. And why am I pushing you away? But I'm too much when you're here. And I know that when I got into the dating world, I was so, to your point, it was like just very traditional talk therapy of like, here's what's going on in my week, and here's why I'm sad. And a lot of, oh, what makes you think that? And you're like, I don't fucking know. Maybe you could tell me. That's why I'm here. And I was dating the same patterns over and over and over. And there was one word that kept coming up to me that I really want to pick your brain on in a second.

• 15:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Once I'm done shutting my mouth sabotage. I kept saying, oh, I just keep sabotaging myself and I just keep doing this. And you hear it all the time. I keep self sabotage and why do you do this? And you know, it's not good for you, but yet I kept doing it. And when you were talking about when you had your client come and understanding that part, I think why I got so emotional was it reminded me of when my therapist once asked me, my IFS practitioner I was working with, what parts of yourself do you not think are lovable? And I remember at first going like, I don't have any, what are you talking about? I love myself and I literally stopped myself and I went, I'm full of shit. That's not the truth. I was like, there are a lot I can't fucking stand. And I started listing them all.

• 15:46Sabrina Zohar?

  And once I did, and then we started going a little deeper and she said, okay, well, can we start to understand them a little bit more? I will never forget my little looking at me saying, you abandoned me. And I'm just scared that everybody else is going to. And that was the first time she'd ever spoken to me. And I was like, what are you talking about? I abandoned you. And then it bloomed the lid open of like, I have, I've done to you what everybody has done to me. I'm speaking to you in the same ways, but I didn't really understand it because everyone's telling me I'm self sabotaging. So why do I do this to myself? And then it was reframed. Could that be self protection? Could we find a space to understand? So I wanted to understand from you. I think there's a lot of people listening right now being like, I keep sabotaging myself. I know I shouldn't talk to them, but I want them so bad. What does that even mean when we think of sabotage?

• 16:30Sabrina Zohar?

  And how can we learn to reframe to work with it and not against it of get rid of these parts? As opposed to let me understand them because if I give them a voice, like somebody gave me the voice, I was able to stop having to scream so loud to be heard and was able to be in the present moment because I could finally sit with those parts and understand them.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that's a great question. So what I found, and a lot of this is in a book called, You're the One You've Been Waiting For, that I wrote some time ago. But what I found is that when you have these exiles, these parts that you've locked away, a lot of times. They were hurt by one of your parents and they were desperate to be redeemed, or they were desperate to be seen as valuable by that parent. And that never happened. And then, when you leave, they're still in there and they're still desperate to be redeemed, or to be valued, or to be protected. And when you're dating somebody, they're scanning unconsciously to see if this is the one who's gonna do that for your exile, who's gonna take care of it, or protect it,

• 17:32Speaker 03

  or show that it's really valuable and loved, or to redeem it. And when you find somebody, and often they'll resemble the parent that you were desperate to get that from, then that big hit of idealization and, "Oh, my God, this is the one," and infatuation comes from that little one. And that little one becomes desperate to get that from that person. And then your protectors are leery because it resembles the parent that hurt you, and they know. But these exiles can overpower that and really make you try in a relationship that may not be the healthiest for you, because they do resemble that parent. And at some point, they're gonna hurt you like that parent did.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  At which point, your protectors will go into a bunch of different projects. Either they'll try to get you to change yourself so that the person likes you again, or they'll try to change the person so that all your change attempts are focused on getting that person back to where they're supposed to be, you're a redeemer, you're a protector, or whatever. Or some part will say, "Oh, this was a mistake. This isn't the redeemer, this isn't the one. That one's still out there." And you'll dump this one quickly, but you'll go find somebody who's very similar. Like you said, it becomes a pattern that way. And then you have the same thing over again. And then at some point, many people will just give up on getting it from a human being,

• 18:59Speaker 03

  and they'll go to drugs, or they'll go to some way of dealing with these exiles. And what IFS does is helps you become what I call the primary caretaker, or the primary attachment figure to these raw, young parts of you, so that they trust you. And they don't need that person as much. And you can get them out of where they're stuck in the past with your parent. So that they aren't constantly in that longing or striving state. So you, when you can become the primary caretaker of those parts, then whatever partner you have or your date is freed up to be the secondary caretaker.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  Because when you expect your partner to be the primary caretaker, it's not only not realistic, but it's a big load on that person. To be careful all the time of not triggering your exile. So anyway, that's the way I've come to understand these patterns. So does that make sense?

• 19:58Sabrina Zohar?

  It does. I think what you're exemplifying is really the strength that comes into when you face your own stuff. How we don't then project that onto everyone else. Because I get that. I dated the same type of people over and over again, because they were replicas of my father. Not the exact, like, right? It doesn't have to be that, like, oh, they looked like him and talked like him. It's like, some may have. But what was consistent? The way I felt when I was with them? How I would go back to being that same little girl begging for someone to see her, begging to get the attention. And then what did I learn? Okay, to your point. And I'm personally me. I wanted to ask too, like, how do you differentiate? Because I'm still trying to understand, like, what's an exile part? What's a manager, right? Like, without getting too in the weeds, I try not to get too, like, let me psychoanalyze everything. But I know for me, when I was in my heyday, like, I would meet somebody.

• 20:42Sabrina Zohar?

  I could tell I'm getting triggered, I'm seeing. And instead of stopping and being like, hey, whoa, what's happening for me? Right? Do I feel like an adult right now? I kind of feel like I'm a seven-year-old dealing with this. Like, this doesn't feel, pinch doesn't match the action. No, no, no, no, dick, I never did that. What did I do? Okay, this person's not texting me. Instead of like, ta, it's stopping. And no, it was, how can I make this go away? Because there's something wrong with me. Fundamentally, I'm fucked up at my core. So if I messed up, then let me, how can I change myself? So that I could be what you want me to be, right? It was all about manipulation, the game. How can I be what you want me to be? Instead of, how can I sit with myself and take up space? That I'm not going to be for everybody. But that if I'm not, and somebody rejects me, that that's okay. And I'm curious, how can we learn to work with the parts?

• 21:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Because I hear every day, people saying, I'm terrified of getting rejected. I don't want to get hurt. And what I hear a lot of is, I don't trust myself. I don't trust that I'll be OK. I don't trust. How can we actually reconnect? Because I get this question every day of like, I don't get it. I'm telling myself everything's fine and I'm saying that I support myself. But what does it really look like to show up for you to reparent, to figure out what parts are at play? Like, what do you advise for people, especially if they're new to any of this?

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Somebody asked me how I define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox Intense and the New Sweet Chemistry by Prada.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Well, it's hard for people to understand until they either see it or they experience it themselves. And so in the time we have left, if you're interested, I could

• 22:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Please.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  do a little piece of work with you and we could demonstrate how it works.

• 22:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's do it.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  All right. So you were talking about your dating in the past. Is there a part of you that still gets in the way?

• 22:42Sabrina Zohar?

  To where I'm at now?

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:43Sabrina Zohar?

  I will say the one thing that's become the common theme, and then this is also why I'm glad we're doing this, because I'm not dating anymore, but it shows up still in my life.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:51Sabrina Zohar?

  And was that kind of that same topic of like, they're going to forget about me, you're going to leave me. And so in my dating life, that was prevalent of any, the minute I'd walk away, that was, I was having a panic attack. Then I started to notice that was showing up in friendships of, why didn't they text me back? I don't get it. Where'd they go? Right? You start to just that little twang of, that's fine. Now what it's manifested is in my career of if an episode, you know, if something doesn't do well, that's it. Nobody likes me. They've left me. They don't care about me. I'm going to lose everything. And I know I'm talking to my father, but yet I can't seem to work with this part to let me be the adult.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  So you're ready to do that?

• 23:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. And if I'm ready to cry, let's go.

• 23:32Speaker 03

  So focus on that one who feels so insecure and is always assuming that you're going to lose everything and see if you can find it in your body, around your body.

• 23:42Sabrina Zohar?

  She comes up in the same place, right there.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Okay. And as you notice her there, how do you feel toward her, Sabrina?

• 23:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Very uncomfortable. I want to understand her, but she's just so really, it hurts a lot. So I'm trying to find a balance between not trying to get rid of it, but also understanding it.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  So any parts that are uncomfortable with her or try to get rid of her, we're going to ask them to give us a break for about two minutes and ask them to really give us some space in there. So we can just get curious about her and maybe even help her. So see if they'll all separate a little bit. So you can open your mind to her.

• 24:19Sabrina Zohar?

  It's interesting what they came to me and said, as you said, that was, but if we don't stand around her, they're going to figure out who she really is.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Right. And I can tell you now that everybody's going to like her when they figure that out. And I know that's hard for them to believe. And we're going to help her unload the feelings that make her feel so insecure. And then they won't have to protect you all the time. They'll be freed up to do something else.

• 24:47Sabrina Zohar?

  That they love.

• 24:48Speaker 03

  Okay. So ask them really to just trust for a minute and open a lot of space. They don't have to hang around this way.

• 24:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  So how do you feel toward her now?

• 24:58Sabrina Zohar?

  A lot less light or a lot more light. It's actually not as heavy towards her anymore.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  Good. So with the light, do you feel, do you care about her? Or how do you feel toward her?

• 25:08Sabrina Zohar?

  My heart breaks for her because I could see she wants to just, I get it. She wants to be loved. And it's so hard to see her screaming for attention, thinking that there's something wrong with her. And that's why she can't get it.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  So let her know you see all that and you're, you have a lot of compassion for her and just see how she reacts to your compassion.

• 25:25Sabrina Zohar?

  It was like a weight was lifted. Like she just kind of was like, oh, you see me.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. But let's just hang this way with her for a while until she trusts it more. This is a bit new for her to. Feel seen by you and cared about. So let's just keep doing this until she trusted it.

• 25:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I mean, she just keeps saying, like, you tell me that they're gonna like me, but then they don't. And I know I could be honest, it's not about the current time. Like, I can feel in my body that this is about friendships. This is about childhood. Like, this isn't about the current situation, but it feels visceral.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so does she seem to trust that you care about her right now?

• 26:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Yes.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  So then ask her where she's most stuck in the past. And don't think, just wait and see what comes to you from that place in your body.

• 26:12Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like a revolving, it reminds me of being back in elementary school. I was really bullied growing up. Just there was always something about me that people found to bully. And we had a really fucked up family, and I think everyone in the area knew about that. Like, it wasn't hidden that my brother had a drug problem, that he was sent away, he got arrested. It was like, we were that family that was just the mess of the neighborhood, even though it was my brother. And I would just remember going to school and feeling so alone and realizing at home, no one saw me. And hoping that maybe elsewhere, somebody would see me. And just going, I can see her just going around the halls, just feeling like she's invisible. Like, just you look right past her.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. So ask her if she does now feel like you get how terrible that was for her. Or if there's more she needs you to know about it.

• 27:00Sabrina Zohar?

  It's interesting. When I said, you know, I get that, right? She said, but do you?

• 27:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, so just stay with her in any part that says, I think you get it, or I think you, whatever. Just ask any part that are assuming that to wait and just be curious. And ask her again if there's more she needs you to get about it, or what she needs to trust that you do get it.

• 27:23Sabrina Zohar?

  It's interesting. When I asked her that, all she said was, I'm just scared.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  Okay, ask her if she feels like you get how scared she is.

• 27:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Her response was, not really, because you keep telling me that everything's okay.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I'm, I'm saying any parts that do that.

• 27:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  We really want them to stay out of this. So, and Sabrina, are you okay really feeling her fear? Without saying it's okay?

• 27:46Sabrina Zohar?

  I think I'm scared to feel the fear.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  And what's the fear of feeling it? What are you afraid would happen if you felt it?

• 27:53Sabrina Zohar?

  That I'd go back to how that felt.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're gonna do that, but then we're gonna get her out of there and we're gonna help her unload that fear.

• 28:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I think I've been back so many times that I guess, I don't know, to be honest, I'm normally I'm not very afraid to go back to these places, but there's, yeah, I think maybe just a vulnerability right now.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  Okay, so we don't need to do it here in this context with an audience and all of that?

• 28:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I don't mind it. Oh, I'm very, I'm open. I'm actually surprised that I'm this, I have this much trepidation.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  But we want to respect the part that's afraid to do it, but if it can be clearer with me about its fear, I could have a chance to address that fear.

• 28:31Sabrina Zohar?

  I think the only fear that comes to mind is they're gonna realize I'm a failure. They're gonna realize that I'm a loser, that, you know, there's a reason that nobody at home wants to talk to you.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  And who's the they if you go back there and realize that?

• 28:43Sabrina Zohar?

  I think to her, it's the kids at school.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 28:46Sabrina Zohar?

  It's just that the outside world is gonna realize that maybe there's a reason that nobody at home wants to be around me. There's a reason that we're so chaotic is because I genuinely believed it was my fault.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, so the part that's reluctant to let us go there, is it afraid that you'll find that's true or what's its fear?

• 29:03Sabrina Zohar?

  I actually think it might be afraid that we're gonna realize it's not.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  And what would be bad about that?

• 29:08Sabrina Zohar?

  I have to let go of that narrative.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  And what would be bad about that?

• 29:11Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't know if there's anything bad about it, but I guess to this part, the bad thing is then how am I gonna believe in myself?

• 29:17Speaker 03

  If you don't have the narrative that you're not good, how are you gonna believe in yourself?

• 29:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't have the narrative that there's something wrong with me, then how am I gonna motivate myself to actually move forward in my life?

• 29:26Speaker 03

  Oh, now we're cooking. Yeah.

• 29:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Shame.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  No, it's really an issue because I run into this that there are parts, the parts that want to achieve a lot, that rely on this feeling of being not good enough to motivate you. And they're reluctant to let you heal that. Does that make sense?

• 29:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. It's safer for me.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:48Sabrina Zohar?

  I know how to do this. I know how to attack myself. I know how to put myself down. I know how to hear my dad call names all the time. But to believe in myself would mean that I could actually achieve it. And it's like, what do you mean I could actually achieve it? You mean I could be successful? That, come on.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  Too scary or too what?

• 30:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Too scary. Even the thought of making a lot of money, that's terrifying to me. The thought of having a healthy relationship scared the shit out of me for years because I didn't know how I was going to receive it.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. So tell the part, we're not going to do it if it's too scary. Cause I'm hearing all the reasons why it's convinced that you can't let go of this worthlessness.

• 30:23Sabrina Zohar?

  It's funny, when I said like, we don't have to do it. It's like, the part was like, oh, okay, cool. And then the little, she kind of was like, wait, what? Like, no, no, but don't leave me. Like, I want to do this.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:33Sabrina Zohar?

  So I do feel like there's the dichotomy between the two.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  All right. So let's try to make a deal with the protector and tell it, if it lets us go to her and get her out of where she's stuck back there. We don't necessarily have to unload the worthlessness. We just want to get her out of there so she's not suffering all the time.

• 30:54Sabrina Zohar?

  They're in for that. Oh yeah, they were like, oh yeah, they're fine. You could take her.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  All right. All right. So I want you then to go into the scene in the school and be with her in the way she needed somebody and just tell me when you're there with her.

• 31:09Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm there. I'm in art class and she was wearing a little costume and it was her favorite costume. And people made fun of her because I had to wear it again, two years in a row, because my dad refused to buy us another costume. And so my mom did the best she could. And she said, could you just do this again? And my mom said it was her favorite costume and that's why I had to wear it again. But I think a part of me believed that it was because nobody cared about me enough to get me a different one.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Makes sense. So how are you being with her back there?

• 31:36Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm just listening to her.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  Good.

• 31:38Sabrina Zohar?

  And letting her feel the feelings and say that that makes so much sense because that is really hurtful. And I don't think there was anyone there to let her know that that feels really shitty and she's right.

• 31:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Somebody asked me how I define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined? When we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 32:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox Intense and the New Sweet Chemistry by Prada.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  So do that now. You be that person who wasn't there then. And just let her know that was shitty.

• 32:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 32:25Speaker 03

  Wasn't about her, but it was a shitty thing. And see how she reacts to that validation.

• 32:30Sabrina Zohar?

  She just said, thanks.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. And see what else she needs back there from you.

• 32:35Sabrina Zohar?

  I mean, the first thing that just came to mind was, I need you to accept me who for who I am too.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  And what do you say to her?

• 32:41Sabrina Zohar?

  She's right.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  She's right.

• 32:42Sabrina Zohar?

  I have it. I'm hard on myself. I'm the first person to be like, nope, see, you were terrible. That's why this didn't do well. Because it's easier to blame myself.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  Yep. So you give her a big apology about that. That you have been as hard on her as the parents or other people. And it's not fair to her. And see if she can hear your apology. What's it like for her to have your apology?

• 33:04Sabrina Zohar?

  It feels like a hug. Like it felt a little warm where I think she was not used to that. Because very little did anybody validate me growing up. It was a lot of, you're being dramatic, shut up, stop, God, you're here again. It was a very like, oh.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. And like I say, you've been doing that to her too. So let's just hang with her in this more accepting place. And let her know that you're different. And right now, you're different. You have parts that are similar. And they've been doing that to her. But the you who's with her now isn't going to do any of that. And just see how she reacts.

• 33:37Sabrina Zohar?

  She said, you promise? And I said, yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  You know, tell her it's going to take some work. Because these other parts still exist, right? And they're still apt to do some of that. So tell her your intention is to get to the place where she never has to suffer like that again with these parts of you. But it might take some work.

• 33:55Sabrina Zohar?

  She said, I'd love that.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Okay, good. And you can make that commitment, Sabrina?

• 33:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. I love her. I love seeing her. And I'm curious, I actually wanted to ask you, like, in these types of moments, when you do this type of work and you get so close to those beautiful parts of you, I love her, but I really struggle to love those other parts. How do you suggest we approach meeting all of them? Because it's so difficult. You see the little and you're like, I love you, come here. And then you see these mean parts, you're like, why are you here? What do I do with you? And I know of these, like, love them, but like, really, though, when we do see them in these moments, how do you approach them typically?

• 34:29Speaker 03

  All right, if you give me a five more minutes, I'll show you.

• 34:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  So, you're back there with her?

• 34:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  So, ask if she'd be interested in leaving that time and place with you and coming to a safe, comfortable place.

• 34:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah. She's already, as I said, standing up.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  Good. So, ask if she'd like to come live with you in your house, or in your body, or come to a fantasy place of her choice.

• 34:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. I have a little, like, bed I've made for her in my heart, so she wants to go back there. There's other parts that are there, but I haven't brought her there.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so let's bring her there. Tell me when she's there with you.

• 35:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, she's in. She's a little cozy in the bed. She's got her blanket.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Right. And just tell her she never has to go back, and you're gonna stay with her this way as best you can, given these other parts. But see if she'd like to unload the feelings and beliefs she got back there now, that she's safe.

• 35:19Sabrina Zohar?

  It's interesting. When I told you that, she was like, okay, awesome. Like, I'm so glad we don't have to go back. And then it kind of stopped where she was like, what is it like when I'm sick? You know when you're sick as a kid? And you're like, oh, cool, I got the day. And then you're like, wait, do I have to go back tomorrow?

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:32Sabrina Zohar?

  That was kind of bad for your...

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Never has to go back, because she can just live there with you in that bed.

• 35:38Sabrina Zohar?

  She believes it, but she's struggling to believe that that's real. She's like, there's no way. There's no way that we could live here every day. Like, she just, I think she's struggling that.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  Just let her know that you're gonna have to prove it to her. You're gonna have to meet with her every day for a while, and reassure her she doesn't have to go back.

• 35:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, she's stoked. She's cool with that, yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  And if you can pull that off, ask if she's ready to unload the feelings and beliefs she got back there.

• 36:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Whenever you ask me that, I can feel the pang in my chest, and then I can feel the resistance.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  The resistance from her or from some other part, just to ask?

• 36:07Sabrina Zohar?

  From some other part. It's definitely not, I can see she wants to, and it's almost like this, comes in of like, excuse me, sorry, no.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  Right, right, right, right. You know, we made a deal with that part earlier that we wouldn't do this. So, let it know, we're not gonna do that right now, but we appreciate it allowing her to come and live in that bed. But she can hold on to the worthlessness. Until this part trusts it doesn't need it to succeed, to achieve. How's that?

• 36:33Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm literally seeing us like handing her the worthlessness where I'm like, here, you could just hold on to this and then we're just gonna like, you could take all of that and you could stand by the door and then we're gonna be here. And she's actually like cool with that.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  That's perfect because yeah, there's no reason this girl has to carry that.

• 36:48Sabrina Zohar?

  She's so, I see her and she's so incredible and beautiful. And I think I, there's like an anger that comes up when I think about the fact that I didn't have the caregivers there to say that. And I look at my dad being like, how could you look at this beautiful child and say those things to her? It's bananas to me.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that anger is very valid. So you can validate that part.

• 37:07Sabrina Zohar?

  And his anger is another part, right?

• 37:09Speaker 03

  It's another part, but it's got a point, you know? Parents should have done that. And now that she's with you this way, let's bring in the ones who've been so hard on her and just now have them just see her this way and just see how they react.

• 37:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Interestingly enough, like they kind of all came in ready to attack. And then when they saw her there, they were like, oh, oh, she's mine. Oh, she doesn't actually need us.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Right, exactly. Because back then she needed them so that if she felt bad, then all the other stuff wouldn't hurt so bad. So it makes sense. They were really protecting her, actually.

• 37:43Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like an imaginary group of friends almost. It's like this like whole kit and caboodle that comes together to keep us safe.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 37:50Sabrina Zohar?

  But like when we say it's like it's maladaptive because that's not keeping us safe anymore.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  That's right. They're all stuck back in that time. So, but let them know they don't have to do this nasty job anymore. They'll be relieved to know they can do something else.

• 38:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, that they're excited about.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  Okay. So anything else before we come back?

• 38:09Sabrina Zohar?

  No, because already in my head, I was like, we have more questions. It's like I have more, I want to come. No, I, it feels so nice to see her, to acknowledge her, to validate her, to be there. But now here goes in down, let's flip hats back to, I have a question for you about what we just had because it's beautiful. For the people that are like, I didn't have trauma. I don't know where this is coming from. You hear it, I hear it, we all hear. No, no, my parents were amazing. I don't know what you're talking about. How do we help them to understand? Because I feel like there's a disconnect, right? Like, I'm sure you, it doesn't have to be the big Ts to have issues. You can have the little T traumas, but how can we help people connect to these different parts if they don't know where they came from or how they even got that?

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, how did we do it with you? I got you curious. I got you to be curious rather than wanting to get rid of or not liking. This scared part and the part that felt worthless. And once you got curious and asked her about it, she showed you where it came from and then you got it. Then you had compassion for her. And that's true for anybody that does this work. Initially, you have no clue. You just have these feelings and these patterns and these repetitive sequences with people. But if you get curious about it and focus on it, the parts will tell you what's going on with them. And so it's not that hard.

• 39:23Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm curious for a lot of people that really struggle with how do I tell if it's my intuition? Right? Like, how do I know it's that authentic me? Versus, is it one of the parts talking? Is it my anxiety? Is it all of these things? What do you normally recommend? Because I know it works for me, but I'm curious clinically or in your profession that you've seen, how can we understand the difference between the two when we stop and listen?

• 39:45Speaker 03

  Well, the big parts detecting question is one that I asked you, which is, how do you feel toward her? And then I'm listening for the answer. And if it isn't one of those C words, you know, if initially you were afraid of her or afraid to expose her or there was a part that depended on her to achieve. So you had a lot of different feelings. There were parts that were afraid to expose her. Remember all that? So those are all parts. Those aren't those C words. Those, I was listening for, I'm just curious about how she got this way. Or I care about her. I feel sorry for her. And short of that, I know I have to get these other parts and make deals with them and get them to step out. And then, once we make the deals,

• 40:29Speaker 03

  and now I ask you, how do you feel toward her? And I love her or see her. I'm so sorry for her. Now I know I've got self. And sorry, it is related to your tone of voice and your facial expression. Because all that's a signature for self. And it wasn't long before you were in that self place. And then I knew we could get her out of there.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Somebody asked me how I define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined? When we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox Intense and the new Sweet Chemistry by Prada.

• 41:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, Dick, let's play a fun game. I'm gonna ask you a quick question. So, limerence. I hear it all the time, right? Limerence. Are you familiar with like the term limerence?

• 41:28Speaker 03

  No.

• 41:28Sabrina Zohar?

  No, okay. So, limerence essentially, it was coined in the 70s by a psychologist. And it's pretty much like this obsession. Like, I'm obsessed with this person. I can't eat, I can't sleep, I have everything. And it's like, sometimes you may have never even met this person. Maybe you had one date. Like, it's usually not something that you're dating this person actively. And I wanted to know, because I hear this all the time. People are like, oh, some people just date differently. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I can't help but wonder, that limerence, that obsession, that cannot be from the adult right now. And I'm curious if we looked at it from an IFS lens, because we hear more often than not, I get people that are stuck on someone, can't move on, I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed. Well, how can we start to understand that in a different lens?

• 42:05Speaker 03

  You know, I'm reluctant to generalize too much about that. But what I would do if you were in that state would be to find that obsessive part. And then we would get curious about it. And what's it afraid would happen if it let go of this person? And what does it need from you to trust that it doesn't need this other person so much? And that's a lot of what I... You know, what we did was hook you up with this little one so that you could take care of her. And now she doesn't need her father in that same way. And so, that's what I meant earlier when I said, you become that primary attachment figure to your own parts. And when these parts don't have that, then they do get obsessed about somebody else for various reasons.

• 42:51Sabrina Zohar?

  It's interesting, because I remember Britt, as we know her both. When Britt was... She and I were doing something once, and she was actually doing parts work with me. And she was like, all right, let me help you. Because she saw I was just really struggling, like, as a friend to friend. And I said something, I was like, I'm scared I'm gonna lose them. And she's like, okay, can I let that part know? You already did. I remember I was like, what? And she was like, you did. You already lost them. She's like, that you're not a kid anymore. You lost that. And it was such a game changer, because to your point, when you really stop, like, anytime I'll work with someone where I'm like, okay, what are you so scared of? Well, they're gonna leave me. Okay, what's this scary week? When you really start to dig under, very rarely does it have anything to do with them. We become obsessed with people, typically speaking, because they're not a safe space. Because when somebody is safe, and consistent, and reciprocal, and honest with you, what are you obsessing over? You know every, you're not, they're not filling in the blanks.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Exactly. Yeah. And just remember, these parts are not living in the present. They're really stuck back in these scenes where they desperately needed that person. So even, you know, CBT, or, you know, correcting their irrational beliefs, it's not gonna help them, because they still live back there.

• 43:52Sabrina Zohar?

  My last question for you, especially if you're in a relationship with somebody, or you're dating somebody, if you see that they have parts come out, what's an appropriate way to handle it? Because I don't want people to start getting into therapy world of like, is that a different part of yours? But what do you do when you see that your partner is very clearly not reacting from the place now? Like, how do you handle that?

• 44:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, my wife and I have had to deal with that too a lot. And it is possible to kind of weaponize the model. And so I really encourage people not to come out on each other's parts. But when you get into it with your partner, means that these protectors are doing the talking, they're doing the fighting. It's very possible to say timeout, which my wife and I do, get away from each other, and do what we call a U-turn in your focus, and just focus on the parts that have come up during the fight, and then learn about what they're protecting, learn about the exiles that they're protecting. And then it's possible to go and work with all that,

• 44:51Speaker 03

  or minimally, come back to your partner and speak to them from this place of self for those parts. And when you can do that, it's a game changer. You just, self-to-self communication is beautiful. And instead of saying to your partner, why the hell do you do that to me? You're saying, yeah, there's this part that's very angry that you hurt this other one. And I'm going to say for it that it really doesn't want you to say that anymore. So it's a totally different communication.

• 45:21Sabrina Zohar?

  I have to say, IFS is one of the truth, I'll make a blanket statement, but look, for me, it changed my life. It allowed me to understand there's nothing wrong with me. And I think what I love is like, there's CBT, there's DBG, da, da, da, da. I could go on for days. There's all these different modalities. But what I love about IFS is that you're teaching people how to understand yourself and be curious about what's coming up for you as opposed to judging it. How can I change it? What can I do to get rid of it? And I think it's holding space for the whole kit and caboodle. And I think that is just so beautiful and I'm so beyond grateful for you and for everything that you've done for our industry and for me. So I just wanted to give you a very, very real and heartfelt thank you for saving my life because in, without you showing me, whether through your work or even today, who

• 46:03Sabrina Zohar?

  those parts are and who actually needed me, I was stuck so long on facing the wrong problems that weren't actually there. So I just wanted to say thank you.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  Well, thank you for those kind words and also for having the courage to do this today. And yeah, I love how much you're embracing the model and using it. And yeah, and this has been a treat for me to be with you.

• 46:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you. And I think to anybody that's listening, like when people struggle with like, how do I get in touch with myself? It's like you now have a really kind of very rudimentary, simple, when you think about the work. It's not like you didn't have to hypnotize me and get me to go anywhere. It's just about, like you said, the right questions, getting curious and trying to understand as opposed to trying to get rid of, which has been such a game changer for me.

• 46:45Speaker 03

  And I'll quickly mention that I waited a long time before bringing it to the public because I wanted to be sure we knew how to do it safely. And we have a workbook out now that the people really like.

• 46:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Awesome. We'll link everything. Yeah, what's the name of it? We'll link it in the show notes.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  I think it's called the IFS Workbook or the Internal Family Systems Workbook.

• 47:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Perfect.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, very clever name. So yeah, people can do a lot on their own. That's one of our hallmarks is that you wind up not relying on the therapist to heal you, relying on yourself. And that's a big value of mine.

• 47:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, same. I'm a big fan of like, of course, you might need to talk to somebody, especially if you're so stuck in your echo chamber. But at the end of the day, my healing doesn't come because I have these big kumbaya moments in therapy. My healing comes from what I do after. How do I show up after? How do I, what do I invest in myself after? How do I continue to speak to myself? And then what do I do with the information I just saw?

• 47:38Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And that is so important, all the stuff you do on your own. IFS has become a kind of life practice rather than a form of therapy. And you're embodying that. It's really great.

• 47:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks, Dick. I appreciate it. For anybody who wants to, like, we're gonna have everything linked, but where can people find more of you, learn more? How can people become more involved in IFS?

• 47:56Speaker 03

  Well, we have a website, which is ifs-institute.com. And most all the information is on there. And then I've written lots of books. The one people seem to love is called No Bad Parts. And that's available on Amazon. And there's lots of videos on YouTube and so on. So.

• 48:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Awesome.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:16Sabrina Zohar?

  Perfect. Thanks, Dick. We'll link everything. And I'm just, thank you so much for being here. And thank you for sitting with us and bestowing your wisdom. It means the world.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Well, I didn't know what to expect, Sabrina. I didn't know that you were into IFS so much. So it's a wonderful surprise and really enjoyed being with you.

• 48:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Likewise. Thank you. We'll have you when you're in town. We'll have you in the studio.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Love to. We'd really love it.

• 48:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Perfect. Well, until next time, Dick. I'll see you soon.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  Sounds good.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Somebody asked me how I define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. "Paradox Intense and the New Sweet Chemistry" by Prada.

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