Behind the Scenes Minis: Greetings and Context

Holly and Tracy commiserate about sending greeting cards. Tracy talks about how she shifted away from an episode exclusively about Frances Thompson. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:34Speaker 01

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• 0:49Speaker 02

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic

• 1:34Speaker 02

  reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 2:04Speaker 03

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• 2:34Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 3:10Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 3:21Holly Frey?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey.

• 3:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 3:26Holly Frey?

  We talked about greeting cards this week.

• 3:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  We did. When you said, like, the outline of the episode just said something to the effect of, like, I'm working through my feelings on greeting cards. And I thought that meant something very different than what you actually talked about on

• 3:43Holly Frey?

  Yeah, no.

• 3:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  the, in the introduction to the episode. I thought your feelings about greeting cards was going to be about, I don't know, their content, or any time I go to buy one, I can't find one with a sentiment that I like, so I always wind up getting blank ones. I thought it was going to be something along those lines and not

• 4:01Holly Frey?

  No.

• 4:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  what you were actually talking about.

• 4:04Holly Frey?

  Yeah, trying to make space in my life. Yeah. Uh, it kind of did help me make some rules about what stays and what goes. I also think I might make myself a rule that they have to get integrated into some kind of art. They can't just be sitting in a drawer somewhere, but that's weird, too. One of the things that really struck me, I didn't mention it, but it was in that report we talked about the, at the end, about the current status of the greeting card industry. And one of the people from the greeting card association made this very good point of like, you can send electronic greetings as much as you want, but you can't in the same way, hold like a text from a loved one that has passed in your hand.

• 4:49Holly Frey?

  The way you can a card that they've sent you and like, keep it as a memento. And like the sentimental value of them is, I think, also a part of what's driving new interest among younger purchasers, which is really interesting.

• 5:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  That has been a factor in ones that I have kept, that I might not have kept otherwise.

• 5:06Holly Frey?

  Hundred percent. I mentioned in that Duque d'Orléans poem translation that I

• 5:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:13Holly Frey?

  translated part of it because here is why. There are a lot of translations I see of it that translate a section of it literally. And the way it conveys to the English ear, the English speaking ear, is not really in line with what he is saying. And that is, instead of saying, I am lovesick,

• 5:40Holly Frey?

  it says, I am sick of love. And that makes it sound more negative. And so I switched it. But I didn't, I'm like, no, he's obviously like very sad to not be with her. It makes it sound like he's like down with love. I don't have time for it. So that's, if you go looking for a translation and you're like, that's not what this says. That's what's going on there. Yeah, because you would say in French, it would be mal d'amour. Sick of love, but it's like sick from love, not Yeah. Not tired of it. Here was another cool thing that I didn't get into and debated about getting into that I really, really liked about the Egyptian

• 6:24Holly Frey?

  use of scarabs. Oh, yeah. As a greeting and as a way to show people you cared about them, which is that unlike, we talked about the development of greetings in China and in, you know, the US and England, really, where it starts out as something that like rich people are doing and eventually becomes affordable for everybody else. Right. Scarabs, it appears have always been something that like were used this way across all of the the social and economic strata of that culture. Like it was something that was available to everyone as a means of showing other people that you love them, which I really, really like. Just cool. Yeah.

• 7:07Holly Frey?

  I read a listener mail about figure drawing. Yeah, yeah. And how ballet dancers are perfect for it, which is a really good idea. Thank you again, Kieran. So J C Horsley, John Calcott Horsley, who designed what is often called the first Christmas card. I didn't know until I was looking up information on him.

• 7:30Holly Frey?

  Was sometimes called Mr. J Clothes Horsley. Okay. Not for the reason you might think, because I read that and I was like, oh, was he a dandy? No, apparently he was a little bit of a puritan and he didn't, he refused to do life drawing with nudes. Okay. And as a consequence, like throughout his career, that's one of the things that gets criticism is like, he didn't really know how the human body works. He's not very good at proportions on human body because he was like so worried about seeing somebody without clothes on that he would never do a nude drawing class or a nude drawing study, which is so fascinating to me, right?

• 8:10Holly Frey?

  You think about all of the great artists in history who are known for their understanding of how the human body works. Michelangelo pops to mind, of course, and it's because they did so many nude studies like. Even a thin layer of clothing is gonna change your perception of like, how the muscles and tendons and everything are connecting to one another. And I'm like, horsely. Oh, baby, you could have been even better.

• 8:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Holly Frey?

  Just made me laugh. The only other thing I wanted to talk about was end of year letters.

• 8:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 8:43Holly Frey?

  I can't even get my act together to send cards.

• 8:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Holly Frey?

  I don't know how people do it. And yet, the people in my life that do it, I love those letters every year. Like, they're often super funny. And I'm like, oh, that's such a great thing. And then I'm like, I don't. I'm sure it would only take a couple hours at most.

• 9:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:06Holly Frey?

  But like, my brain is so resistant to the idea.

• 9:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  I feel like there's been a year of my adult life when I sent Christmas cards, not letters, just cards, to a lot of friends and relatives.

• 9:23Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I managed to do that once. When we bought our house, I, ahead of time of actually buying the house and moving, used one of those, you know, services where you can design your own cards to put together a change of address card. And I already had those printed. And if I recall correctly, they also had an addressing service. And so I might have had them address it for me, largely based on the address list that I had developed for our wedding, uh, which was a few years before, like, I went and updated that list. And I sent those cards out so quickly after I moved that a friend of mine said it made her angry.

• 10:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  She, because she could not imagine having been that on the ball in the middle of a move. And that's the only time that I've managed to be that on the ball. I have much more often done things like bought Christmas cards with the intent of sending them and not sending them.

• 10:25Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah. Still in a, still in a thing.

• 10:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, once I bought a variety pack of those Love Pop pop-up cards.

• 10:34Holly Frey?

  Oh, they're beautiful. I love them so much.

• 10:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think they were flowers. It was like 12 months of flowers. And my intention was that I was gonna send my mom. A flower card every month. And that's how much I didn't have my act together. I didn't get it together to send a card every month to my mom. And then the pandemic started and everything shut down. And I was like, I have this dozen cards. And so I sent greeting cards to like, a lot of friends and family that like, when everything shut down. And then because it was at that time of the pandemic, when we really didn't know what was happening and we didn't know how it spread and people were washing their gross threes and whatever.

• 11:15Holly Frey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  I sealed it with a wet paper towel and I wrote across the seal sealed with a wet paper towel.

• 11:22Holly Frey?

  So careful. So careful and good. I mean, in a good way. Yeah, I am. The only time I've ever been even moderately okay at it. Some years back, we had a sponsor that printed custom cards. And I had New Year's cards that had my wonderful and horrible cat, Mr. Burns on them.

• 11:46Holly Frey?

  And then, um, this is a little sad, but Mr. Burns died kind of early that year.

• 11:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  No.

• 11:53Holly Frey?

  And I had not sent a lot of the cards and they're still in a drawer somewhere because I can't.

• 11:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh.

• 11:58Holly Frey?

  Don't have it in me to toss them.

• 11:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Holly Frey?

  Again, maybe they'll become an art project.

• 12:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Maybe.

• 12:03Holly Frey?

  We can draw something Halloweeny on it and make it like ghost Mr. Burns. I don't know. We'll do something. Uh, Mr. Burns. Mr. Burns. I, this also did kind of inspire me to think about like, is there a way I can make the card thing happen?

• 12:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 12:19Holly Frey?

  Because my, here's my holdup. I think I would be okay with it, except this sounds so cockamamie when I say it. It's like, how lazy are you? Getting to the post office from our house is weird.

• 12:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 12:33Holly Frey?

  We have a post office that's quite close, less than half a mile away, but it's not walkable.

• 12:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:40Holly Frey?

  And it's in like a shopping center that getting into and out of it is a real pain in the neck. So I'm always like, I want to do that. And then we have another one. The next closest one is actually where my P O. Box is, but I don't go there super often.

• 12:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:54Holly Frey?

  It's kind of like one of those things where I'm like, oh yeah, I'm having dinner over there. I'll stop by there.

• 12:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:59Holly Frey?

  I'm just terrible at going to the post office. That's the biggest problem.

• 13:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:03Holly Frey?

  One day.

• 13:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  You've suddenly reminded me that I'm pretty sure I got an email about my P O. Box renewal and I'm like, that I handled that.

• 13:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  I'm on top of it. I'm on top.

• 13:17Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  I'm not actually on top of things.

• 13:19Holly Frey?

  Yeah, yeah. And then I actually feel, especially having listened to this and it being inspired by me trying to clear out my house, there's also part of me that's like, do I want to dump more things in other people's lives? What if they don't want cards?

• 13:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Holly Frey?

  Treachery. Maybe I'll ask everybody, do you want cards this year? I don't want to give you things you don't want to deal with.

• 13:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  We have a number of friends that tend to send either letters or cards. And a lot of our friends who have kids have been sending like little pictures of their kids. And I had done some tidying and I had discarded like the envelopes, things that came in, that the envelopes that the things had come in, the things that like were not actually necessary. So I had the pictures and the cards.

• 14:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  But the pictures had become separated from the cards.

• 14:08Holly Frey?

  Uh huh.

• 14:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  And there was a moment where Patrick came and looked at a picture of a child and was like, who is this?

• 14:14Holly Frey?

  Whose baby is this?

• 14:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  We had to like match it up, figure out who was who.

• 14:22Holly Frey?

  Yeah. I, I'm pretty lucky in that regard. I'm trying to think through like my good friends that would send me pictures of their kids. And one couple in particular, their kids look so much like either one of the other of them that I could easily go, oh, I know whose kid that is.

• 14:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Well, and in our defense, this particular picture did not look as much like the other pictures of the child or the child.

• 14:48Holly Frey?

  Yeah, yeah, that happens.

• 14:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  For whatever reason, it was just an angle that didn't look the same, I guess.

• 14:57Speaker 06

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• 15:27Speaker 01

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 16:57Speaker 07

  First thought is like, wow, how are we gonna do all this?

• 17:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hey, everybody. It's Tracy from Stuff You Missed in History Class. That's Alan Goya, a planning engineer at AT&T. He's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, defining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 17:21Speaker 07

  It was gonna rival anything that was already built, and that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 17:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came Together and held up on game day.

• 17:35Speaker 08

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 17:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 17:44Speaker 08

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing. What the fans experienced is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 17:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love. Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 18:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  We talked about the Memphis massacre. Oof, yeah, we did. We have several similar massacres in the archive. We're going to have a related Saturday Classic coming up, and several of them are episodes I wrote. And I got to this point that I felt like we were telling essentially the same story over and over, but that it wasn't adding anything new or additional to what we were talking about. It's just sort of felt like we were revisiting the same trauma repeatedly. Right. With this one, my intent had been to have an episode that was about Frances Thompson,

• 18:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  because I thought there was more information about her than there was. Gotcha. And I sort of understood that to do the episode, I would need to talk about the massacre as part of the context. And so I was thinking between what we know about her and the massacre, there's probably a whole episode there. But then I realized that apart from her testimony that she gave before the House Select Committee, what we know about her is basically entirely in horrifying, incredibly disrespectful news articles. If the episode had been about

• 19:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  her, since our show is on Netflix now and we need some visual things to go on Netflix, we probably would have needed to use those illustrations of her, which were not things, like she was not in control of her own. Right. Depiction there. Right. It was something that like she was forced to do. And then these are, these are pictures that were being printed to make her look bad. And I just felt like there was not a way to really focus the episode on her.

• 19:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Without having to draw from this incredibly disrespectful and offensive source material. And I, like, we have said before, it is incredibly important to acknowledge the reality that for all of history, there have been people who have lived in whatever way outside of their, their society's standards for things like sex and gender. But it's also really important to do that in a way that doesn't feel like we are disrespecting the people of the past, or, or trans people living today. Yeah. And so, like, as I read just a series of awful articles, I was like, I think the

• 20:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  focus here needs to be about the massacre. Because this massacre does have some aspects that don't feel like we're just repeating the same trauma when we get into the part about the influence on things like the 14th amendment. And then also spend some time talking about her and what happened to her. That's how we sort of arrived at the episode that we wound up doing. A sort of bit of information that I could not find a good place in the structure of the episode to include is Mary Church Terrell, who was a journalist and a suffrage advocate, a civil rights activist also. She wrote a memoir

• 21:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  that was published in 1940. And she talks about this massacre in that memoir because her father was there. And her father was shot and left for dead. And in her description of this, she refers to it as the Irish Riot. And that's something that she wrote in 1940, so decades later, after it had happened. Which to me was just an, an illustration of how

• 21:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  How tightly it was still connected to the idea of the Irish community and not former Confederates or

• 21:57Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 21:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  the white community more broadly, even though at that point, it was not in public memory much anymore beyond people who had some kind of direct connection to it like she did through her father.

• 22:09Holly Frey?

  I marvel and don't marvel at how quickly this did fall out of public memory.

• 22:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Holly Frey?

  And I wonder, because we're watching the same thing happen to a lot of things today.

• 22:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 22:21Holly Frey?

  The difference being that today we're like inundated with a constant wild flow of information and news all the time. So it's kind of easy for your brain to like,

• 22:31Holly Frey?

  cycle to the next thing. Whereas with this, you know, presumably there were not as many huge violent outbreaks going on on the daily being reported in papers. So I, I find myself being like, how much of this was sort of a purposeful? And how much of it, I mean, there's no one, there's no one answer either. Right. Like, how much of it is people just being like, that was so horrific? And this incredibly horrifying reminder of the capacity for human cruelty and violence is something that like, we almost can't deal with and process emotionally or intellectually.

• 23:12Holly Frey?

  So let's put it aside versus people just like not caring. Like, those are all elements of the, the ways that people,

• 23:24Holly Frey?

  I don't even know if they forget, but they just kind of don't engage with that information anymore. And I, I, it's terrifying.

• 23:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, there have been, there have been some episodes on other, especially very traumatic incidents, incidents of racist violence, where we have gotten more into like the how of how it fell out of public memory.

• 23:50Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  And sometimes there's been an aspect of The incident becoming a taboo among the people that it happened to and people not wanting to talk about it among their family members, not wanting to talk about it among their descendants. Right. Not really like wanting to revisit that trauma. But then there have also been times that the focus was a lot more on like intentionally burying the history of what happened, often on the part of whoever perpetrated the violence. But that's been part of a lot of these episodes that we have done before. Like I grew up in North Carolina, never heard about the Wilmington coup until I was an adult. If I remember correctly, what our episode about the Tulsa massacre, similarly, like

• 24:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  the Tulsa massacre kind of was not in the public consciousness until it was resurrected by historians and activists and people trying to make sure that it it continued to be part of the history, became, re-became part of the history that was talked about. And then with the Tulsa massacre, specifically like the TV show Watchmen. Yep. It was part of that TV show and like that became how a lot of people heard about it. And like, I remember when that show was on, seeing a lot of people on social media discovering for the first time that that had happened and not really realizing that it wasn't just one thing. It was part of this pattern.

• 25:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right. That has happened over and over and over again, all around the country at points over, you know, decades slash centuries. I really appreciated the, the fact that there was, you know, a conscious effort leading up to the 150th anniversary of the Memphis massacre to say, okay, we are going to have all of these events, we're going to hold a symposium. Yeah. We're going to, like, they made a website and a blog and a lot of stuff to just try to like, make people aware that this had happened, who might not have been aware of it before. Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 00

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• 26:30Speaker 01

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor

• 27:29Speaker 02

  if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 28:01Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 28:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  trusted ADT home security in a snap. Head to ADT.com/BLU to build your system today. And to hear more about home protection and other grown-up topics, check out new episodes of Grown-Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:13Holly Frey?

  The other thing I was, couldn't help but think about, which might be a weird line to draw between two things.

• 29:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 29:21Holly Frey?

  Is, you know, we talked about Frances Thompson and her horrific treatment,

• 29:29Holly Frey?

  which was in the mid to late 1870s, right? By the time she passed. And then just, you know, 45 years later, you get Gladys being famous as a person who is bucking gender and sexuality norms.

• 29:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 29:50Holly Frey?

  And I'm like, on the one hand, if you're a single person living through that, that feels like a very long time. But in the arc of history, that's a pretty short time. Granted, there are a lot of other variables, right? Not the same place, et cetera. But it is kind of an interesting thing to think about. When we talked about Gladys's story, Gladys Bentley, I wasn't really thinking about it in terms of like, just a few decades earlier.

• 30:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Holly Frey?

  These things were still playing out and the, the really like, direct ramifications of. You know, the, the ways that particularly people of color that were seen as outside of any of those norms were treated was very different and could be much harsher. Granted, we continue to see, you know, violence today. I don't want to act like everything's fine, but it is an interesting way that we look at the ebbs and flows of how things shift forward. We talked in this episode about like the, the wave that happens after that when progress is made. And then there's like a knee jerk towards a less, less fruitful and less tolerant, you know, environment.

• 30:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Holly Frey?

  I mean, my hope always, which might be naive, is that like each progressive step forward gets us a little farther, but who knows?

• 31:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 31:06Holly Frey?

  Who knows? Trying to be hopeful today on, in a world where it's very hard.

• 31:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Which makes me feel bad for the next thing that I wanted to, I was gonna say, which is that one of the things that struck me about the news reporting around Frances Thompson was how similar some of it felt to news reporting now.

• 31:32Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 31:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  Where newspapers were basically manufacturing the idea that there was this epidemic sort of, of cross dressing.

• 31:42Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 31:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  Black people who were sexually deviant and like.

• 31:46Holly Frey?

  Dangerous deviants.

• 31:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Manufacturing an emergency over it, which just feels like the same thing happening today.

• 31:58Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  With how, like, maybe with fewer slurs and fewer.

• 32:04Holly Frey?

  Barely.

• 32:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Fewer, like intentionally incorrect pronouns. Not saying that people are never called the wrong pronouns in reporting. Obviously that still happens.

• 32:14Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 32:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  But like, that was one of the things that, that was in a lot of these articles was like intentionally wrong pronouns and putting the pronouns in a way that to make it sound deviant. But like, we're still living through a time in which reporting is, has like manufactured, made up an emergency.

• 32:34Holly Frey?

  Oh, 100%.

• 32:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  About trans people that just, like, it's not real.

• 32:42Holly Frey?

  I mean, I would say that the difference, if you want to keep it hopeful,

• 32:47Holly Frey?

  is that more people recognize now that that is baloney.

• 32:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Holly Frey?

  And will say so than probably would have during Frances Thompson's time.

• 32:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, for sure. That's true.

• 32:59Holly Frey?

  Same dance, just different faces.

• 33:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's like, this is, I feel like I'm reading an article about the need for bathroom laws.

• 33:08Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 33:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  But it's.

• 33:10Holly Frey?

  No story time.

• 33:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Years ago.

• 33:11Holly Frey?

  Don't let drag queens read books to kids. Except you should. You will never have a more fun day in your life. Those kids will have a great time. Yeah, I feel so, I feel so strongly about this. I, listen, I want a drag queen to try, read to me all the time. Can read me anything you want. It's great. It'll be fun. We'll all have a great time. I will tip you.

• 33:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 33:32Holly Frey?

  Love it. Love it.

• 33:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 33:34Holly Frey?

  If you've never been to a drag show, get your bed on to a drag show. You'll never have more fun in your life. Joy in abundance.

• 33:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Holly Frey?

  And we all need it.

• 33:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  I agree. I agree. We do need more joy. We need more joy just across the whole spectrum of everything.

• 33:51Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  I'm somehow reminded of like, having recently watched a live stream of an all trans table read of Ocean's Eleven.

• 34:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  So much fun.

• 34:06Holly Frey?

  Love it. Love it.

• 34:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  Anyway, whatever's coming up on your weekend, I hope there's joy there. And if you're having trouble finding that joy, I hope you have a, a, an opportunity to make a little of it for yourself. And if joy is not possible, then maybe peace or some kind of little treat. And I hope everyone is kind to each other. What?

• 34:28Holly Frey?

  In my head, I made a flow chart that was like joy, peace, ice cream.

• 34:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  I mean, that could work.

• 34:36Holly Frey?

  If you can't get to joy, at least get to chill. And if you can't get to chill, make yourself a dish of ice cream.

• 34:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Then get some ice cream. We will be back on Monday with a brand new episode. And we'll have a Saturday classic tomorrow.

• 34:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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