Neil deGrasse Tyson On Aliens, Simulation Theory, and What Happens Inside A Black Hole

No.1 Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson returns to reveal what the government whistleblowers are actually telling us, why aliens almost certainly exist, why Mars can't save humanity from disaster, and whether science has left any room for God! Neil deGrasse Tyson is America's most famous astrophysicist and Director of the Hayden Planetarium in New York City. He hosts the StarTalk podcast and is the author of over 20 books, including his latest, 'Take Me To Your Leader'. He explains: ◼️ Why the scale of the universe makes it nearly impossible for us to be alone ◼️ Why it would be easier to fix Earth than escape it, and why Mars won't save us ◼️ What actually happens to your body if you fall into a black hole ◼️ Why human creativity is your most powerful protection against AI ◼️ How every atom in your body was forged inside a dying star Chapters 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:19 Why Are Humans So Fascinated by the Universe? 00:07:30 How Small Are We in the Universe? 00:16:19 How Understanding the Universe Can Change Your View of Religion 00:20:53 How Did the Big Bang Actually Happen? 00:23:38 What Existed Before the Big Bang? 00:24:39 The Craziest Theories About How the Universe Began 00:26:49 Did Obama Reveal Something About Aliens? 00:29:03 Why Intelligent Alien Life Could Exist 00:33:21 What Might We Never Know About the Universe? 00:35:19 Is Infinity Actually Possible? 00:37:03 How Do Black Holes Actually Work? 00:46:00 Ads 00:48:19 Why Aliens Might Communicate With Other Earth Creatures First 00:52:07 How Far Could Humans Travel Across the Universe? 00:53:54 What Happens as Nations Add More Satellites to Orbit? 00:59:58 Who Makes the Laws in Space? 01:00:31 Why Is Everyone Racing Back to the Moon? 01:02:54 What Happens If China Gets to the Moon First? 01:03:27 What Valuable Resources Are Hidden on the Moon? 01:04:44 Could the Moon Become a Tourist Destination? 01:05:15 Ads 01:06:17 Is Any of the UFO Footage Actually Compelling? 01:08:06 Would Humanity Be Ready to Meet Actual Aliens? 01:10:29 Why Do Alien Sightings Follow the Same Archetypes? 01:12:14 Why Do People on DMT See Aliens? 01:20:39 Are We Living in a Simulation? Follow Neil: X - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/8uoUwC3 TikTok - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/9ADXUUq Facebook - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/G6V4a9r StarTalk - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/1n73kWW You can purchase Neil’s book ‘Take Me To Your Leader: A hilarious guide to your first alien encounter, from the world's best-loved astrophysicist’, here: https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/FJDB5ED The Diary Of A CEO: ◼ Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼ Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ◼ The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼ The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: https://linkly.link/2hm7r ◼ Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼ Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Pipedrive - https://pipedrive.com/CEO HeyGen - https://heygen.com/doac

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  You had Obama make those comments about the subject of aliens.

• 0:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're real, but I haven't seen them and they're not being kept in Area 51. Unless they hid it from the President of the United States.

• 0:09Steven Bartlett?

  I think he was joking when he said, there are aliens, he's just never.

• 0:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, no, no, no. Obama is scientifically literate. But if you have the aliens and you don't want the president to know, the president's not gonna know.

• 0:17Steven Bartlett?

  So do you believe there's intelligent life in the universe?

• 0:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, we have whistleblowers saying we have actual aliens. People testified we have aliens, that we have alien crash parts. So I don't see why they wouldn't be, given the size of the universe.

• 0:28Steven Bartlett?

  Neil deGrasse Tyson, what is the most pressing question that people are asking right now about the universe? And the first thing I wanted to ask is, why are people so interested in going to the moon?

• 0:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's geopolitical. China says they're going to the moon, 50 years after we go to the moon and we all of a sudden decide we wanna go to the moon?

• 0:43Steven Bartlett?

  Is there an economic upside to it?

• 0:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No.

• 0:45Steven Bartlett?

  Talking about dick to scientists.

• 0:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, I already answered you. I said, we don't want them to go to the moon without us going to the moon.

• 0:51Steven Bartlett?

  And there's no laws up there, is there?

• 0:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Space law is a, is a wild west at this point. It's like, who owns the moon?

• 0:57Steven Bartlett?

  Nobody.

• 0:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, they're trying to figure that out. But don't delude yourself into thinking we ever went to the moon for science, then or now.

• 1:03Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, next, do you believe that we're in a simulation?

• 1:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm whining about that, and I'll tell you why.

• 1:07Steven Bartlett?

  And then, can you explain what a black hole is, like if you get sucked in?

• 1:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you will see the entire future history of the universe unfold. And then the difference in gravity between your feet and your head gets greater and greater and greater. Eventually you'll snap into two pieces, likely separated at the base of your spine.

• 1:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that's not even the worst part, and we'll get to that.

• 1:28Steven Bartlett?

  And then, just how small are we? Is there a most compelling UFO sighting that you can recall? Has your view of religion changed through all that you've learned about the universe? And what is the point of life?

• 1:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, you have a good question. So let's get into this.

• 1:45Steven Bartlett?

  Guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. The algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make the show better. And I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much.

• 2:20Steven Bartlett?

  Neil deGrasse Tyson, people come to you to try and understand the universe.

• 2:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 2:25Steven Bartlett?

  What is the most pressing question people are asking you right now about the universe?

• 2:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are we alone in the universe? And that's influenced by pop culture. Is, I'll give you an example. When the movie Ghost came out, polls showed that more people believed in ghosts after that movie than before the movie. So pop culture has a huge, is a huge force of influence on our thoughts and feelings and attitudes and what we believe is or is not true. So when you say, what is the most pressing question? Are we alone in the universe? Then they say, have we been visited? And how will it all end? That's another one. Usually God shows up in there, is there God? There's an assumption, I think it's a naive assumption, but an interesting one nonetheless, that people who study the universe

• 3:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  might stumble upon God because we're told, or at least in our artwork, gods live in the sky. So people then study the sky. When the Apollo astronauts came back, people said, did you see God? Did you see heaven?

• 3:28Steven Bartlett?

  What is the essence of why people are so curious about these subjects?

• 3:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My best speculation, and this is a wild speculation, and you know, my ego is not based on whether this is true. But it's fascinating for me to think about the fact, we are completely comfortable sleeping on our backs. Ask yourself, how many other animals do that? At all? Does a beetle say, I'm gonna turn over and go on my back and go? Do spiders just go on their back? Think about it, that's quite vulnerable. You're asleep and your belly is exposed, right? We sleep at night, typically.

• 4:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you're outdoors, us sleep on your back at night and you wake up. What's the first thing you see? The universe, the sky. You'll see, you know, comets and meteors and the moon and brighter stars, which we call planets eventually. And from night to night, wait a minute, the moon had one shape and now it's a different shape and it's a different part of the sky. And these lights are moving and how could we not be curious? When, in the middle of the night, you wake up and the universe presents itself to you.

• 4:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I think that's sort of in our DNA, the curiosity about the night sky. I didn't make people interested in the universe. In fact, when I was a kid, my first encounter with the night sky was a planetarium, the Hayden Planetarium here in New York City. I said, wow, I wanna study the universe. But the universe is so interesting, everybody's gonna wanna study the universe and there'll be no room for me. And then, as I got older, I realized there are other things people are interested in. Not everybody wants to study the universe professionally. However, whatever you choose as a profession, it doesn't change the fact that somewhere in you, you're gonna look up and say,

• 5:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  what does that replace in the universe?

• 5:32Steven Bartlett?

  I thought you were gonna say, when you talked about sleeping on their backs, that we are now so comfortable being the sort of apex predator, that we're able to sleep on our backs and actually, if, but we want, we're so interested in aliens because it's the only thing that would threaten our place as being able to sleep on our backs as the apex predator.

• 5:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, I'm, I don't know that ancient people were dreaming up aliens. It's just, just the night sky itself. Well, all right, let's not use the term alien, let's just use the term gods. Where are most people's gods? They're in the sky.

• 6:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Even in ancient Greece, the Mount Olympus, not in the sky, but they're in high places. If you look at posters with religious sayings on them, typically it's a sunbeams coming through clouds and a beautiful landscape. You're looking at the sky. And by the way, what are our images of deity? Many of them could pass for aliens, like the Gorgons, for example. Look at, look at Medusa, snakes for hair Medusa. That's as alien as anything you would ever conjure. What else? Images of Jesus, he's floating, he's got beams coming out of him. If he's not floating, he's walking on water. These are, these are things that go beyond anything that's earthly.

• 6:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now, people imagine aliens with all these same powers and weirdnesses. So I don't know that alien is something specific that's in our DNA to think about, but to imagine things beyond ourselves is. And so I would lump them together in that respect.

• 7:09Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that made me, I guess, more curious about aliens and meaning and purpose and gods and all these things was watching Cosmos, which was your series around the universe and specifically it was.

• 7:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Carl Sagan did it first.

• 7:20Steven Bartlett?

  Carl Sagan, I watched both.

• 7:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My series.

• 7:22Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I watched both.

• 7:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A series I happened to host, yes, okay.

• 7:25Steven Bartlett?

  And they're both, they both had the same impact to me, which was, they made me feel insignificant in the grand scheme of the cosmos. I think when you realize how insignificant we are, or small we are, should I say, in this grand scheme of even this Milky Way galaxy that's on the table in front of us, the delta in the size of me and my world versus all of this is mystery. And I, and I almost feel called to fill it with something. There's, is it Parkinson's Law where you like, you, you fill the space provided? It's, it's the same thing with the universe. Just how small are we, Neil, in the grand scheme of the universe?

• 8:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, if you don't think in terms of metric size, how big are you? This big, this big, this big. If you think in terms of powers of 10.

• 8:15Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 8:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So there are things 10 times bigger than us, 10 times bigger than that, 10 times bigger than that, just keep doing that. We're small compared with the universe, but we're huge compared with atoms and molecules. Now, instead of going 10 times bigger, go 10 times smaller, one tenth, to be precise. What's one tenth our size? Well, that's this big, one tenth that is that big, one tenth that. You keep going down, you enter the realm of molecules and then atoms and then particles. So there are things much smaller than we are. In fact, I addressed some of that in, I wrote an alien book recently, Take Me To Your Leader.

• 8:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's a lot in there about changing your perspective on what you might expect life forms to be like out there. So you can ask the question, are the life forms the size of a galaxy? Or are the life forms the size of atoms? Are we just biased by what our senses can drink in from our own size scale? And that's an interesting fact. And so you know who'd feel small if you were a life form the size of molecules? That, then you're feeling small. There's not much smaller than you if you're molecular sized life. Now, we don't know how you would make that because life, by our own understandings and definitions, has a metabolism, there's things that happen. You ask a biologist, what is life?

• 9:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They'll give you a list of criteria, which are hard, if not impossible, to be fulfilled by life that's extremely small. And they still debate whether viruses are alive, right? Based on some criteria. But some had speculated that life could be the size of nucleons. So a nucleon is the size of the particles in the nucleus of an atom.

• 10:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Things happen very quickly on that scale. So they might wonder, how is it that we live so slowly?

• 10:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so inverting your expectations is a time honored exercise in keeping you honest, keeping your ego in check.

• 10:24Steven Bartlett?

  You can go the other way, right? We, this whole universe could be something in a, another life form's gut microbiome.

• 10:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, okay, so that was briefly addressed in the, in the film, Men In Black, okay? What I can say is the laws of physics manifest differently on different scales. So you can't just scale everything up, which is why you don't have human sized insects.

• 10:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Their legs would break under their own weight. It's why heavy animals have thick, chunky legs.

• 11:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's why if you fell off the roof, you're dead, but an ant can just land and keep walking, okay? Forces don't interact in the same way depending on your scale. One of my favorite scenes in the film A Bug's Life, which I think that was a Pixar film. Pixar, they must have a room full of scientists working for them. There's a mosquito at a bar, the mosquito orders a drink, so what drink does he order?

• 11:32Steven Bartlett?

  A mojito, I don't know.

• 11:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A Bloody Mary, of course.

• 11:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, how big is a mosquito? It's this big and it's a bar, it's like an insect bar. And so the bartender brings over the Bloody Mary and just puts a blob of the liquid in front of her. It's not in a glass, not in a jug, it's just, there it is. Because surface tension is something that manifests in ways that insects care about greatly and we don't. Unless you're waxing your car and then this water gets on it and it beads up, okay? Surface tension is a property of fluid, liquids, where the outer surface, the molecules are a little more tightly gathered

• 12:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  because they don't have forces above them to pull them into the solution that is the liquid. So transitioning from the liquid itself into air creates a kind of a film, all right? And it holds the liquid in place. Unless there's too much liquid, then gravity becomes stronger than the surface tension. And it just flies, exactly. But below a certain amount, the surface tension is greater than the gravity and it beads up. So they knew this in that movie and I thought that was brilliant. My only point of this is to communicate that you can't just scale things up and expect everything to be happening in exactly the same way.

• 13:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I wanna get back to your point when you said you felt small after you saw Cosmos. You only felt small because you went in there with an ego that was unjustifiably too large to begin with. I'm accusing you of that.

• 13:16Steven Bartlett?

  Probably, yeah.

• 13:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  However, I go in there with no such ego, okay? And I look up at the stars and I learn from modern astrophysics that the elements in our body were forged in stars. That exploded, the, the elements, the, the oxygen, the carbon, the nitrogen, the, the iron that courses through our blood was forged in stars that at the end of their lives exploded, scattering that enrichment into the galaxy, out of which the next generation of stars and planets are formed. Early in the universe, we didn't have these ingredients, we could not exist as in our current form.

• 14:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So when I look up, I don't feel small, I feel large because I'm connected to the cosmos chemically.

• 14:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that connectivity, let's, let's make it a little more poetic. Not only are we alive in this universe, the universe is alive within us. And that fact borders on the spiritual. There's an astrophysical fact that gives you a pathway of relevance to the universe. We are part of this great unfolding cosmic story. The fact that we are made of elements forged in the stars. Next time you go out and look up, I want you to feel large, not small.

• 14:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because we are not only made of what stars have produced, we are solar powered.

• 15:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What do I mean by that? Okay, if you're, if you're omnivorous, you maybe had a steak last night, okay? That you're getting calories from the food you eat. And the steak was once a cow, okay? What'd the cow eat? Cow ate plants. What do plants eat? Well, they don't eat, they just sit there and receive sunlight. So a cow, I said this once on the internet and freaked people out. You know, I should not shy away from speaking truth just because it freaks you out. A cow is a machine that we invented, because cows don't exist in the wild, they're, it's domesticated. A cow's a machine that we invented to turn grass into steak.

• 15:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So because at the end of that chain is grass that has photosynthesis, essentially 100% of our caloric value comes, is traceable to the, to stars, specifically the sun. So you are solar powered and the universe is alive within you. So don't ever sit across from me again and say, I feel small in the universe. Sorry, you have a lower pitched voice than that.

• 16:19Steven Bartlett?

  It's strange, isn't it, this idea of like significance as a concept? Like, I'm trying to understand one's significance and I think religion often gives us a sense of significance.

• 16:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it does, yes, of course, hence its, its value to people and its persistence throughout time and across cultures.

• 16:36Steven Bartlett?

  Has your view of religion not changed through all that you've learned about the universe in any way? Since you were this, I've got this, photos of you as a young man.

• 16:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's that? You did some homework there, what'd you do?

• 16:45Steven Bartlett?

  I've got so many photos. I mean, I've got this one here of you and your, I mean, this one's a fascinating, I love that one.

• 16:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, oh, okay.

• 16:50Steven Bartlett?

  My hair was like this when I was that age. So.

• 16:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, so this one was my first telescope and that's my father helping me put it together.

• 17:00Steven Bartlett?

  If I think about this young man here and what he thought about religion, are you more religious, less religious? If so, why?

• 17:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, you know, by the time I was eight, it was, nothing was making sense that people were telling me about religion. What I didn't know is that belief systems don't have to make sense. That's why the belief systems, if they were, made complete sense, it would just be objectively true. If it's a belief system, then it, it's beyond critical analysis. It's just a belief system, okay? So when I say beyond critical analysis, what I mean is, if something in your belief system lends itself to be tested, we can test it. And if what we test shows that what you believe is false, are you gonna stop believing?

• 17:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Generally not, because it's a belief system, okay? Most people want to engage you ultimately with some kind of spiritual religious conversation, I have found, especially given my access to the universe. And in the early days, there were easy answers. It was like, this is, this is religion, you know, go ahead, I'm doing science here. Then I thought, I owe people who are religious a more informed and nuanced engagement because of the power and force that religion has exercised on the history of the world. It's not just cultural, it's political, it's economic, it's.

• 18:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I started reading religious tracts and now, when I'm engaged in a conversation, I have a full up conversation with people on their beliefs, whatever intersection, if any, with the objective universe and what those beliefs do for the person who holds them. And there are many places on the internet that claim me as an atheist. And it's like, I've never embraced that title.

• 19:12Steven Bartlett?

  So you're not an atheist?

• 19:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The only ist I am is a scientist, okay? Let's start there. Now, titles are lazy, I'll tell you why. Once you hand a title to someone, that gives you license to not have to think anymore about who and what that person is regarding that subject. And that has never ended well, in my experience. So first, it's odd that such a word as atheist exists at all. Think about it. It's a word that says what you're not. Is there a word for non golfers? Is, is there a word for not? Ask yourself, how many things do we have words for, for which you're not? Very few.

• 19:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so this exercise of saying, you're either with us or you're against us. And if you're against us, I have this word for you that says you're not this. Like I said, that never ends well, it ends in war and bloodshed typically. Leading atheists today who write books on this, okay? Richard Dawkins is among them. He wrote a book called The God Delusion, that's fighting words if there ever was one. These are people who reject God, reject its influence on politics and society and lives and and would just as soon see a world without it. I'm not that guy. I have behavior.

• 20:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That would be rejected by any modern atheist thinker. So what am I? We pick the next word would be agnostic. Okay?

• 20:47Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so let's pick that next word, which I also relate to. I would consider myself to be agnostic as well.

• 20:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Agnostic, sure.

• 20:52Steven Bartlett?

  I kind of, I just don't know. What's your leading view of where all of this stuff came from?

• 20:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's consistent with observations and experiment. The Big Bang.

• 21:00Steven Bartlett?

  The Big Bang.

• 21:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, it is so thoroughly supported, as fantastical as it is.

• 21:05Steven Bartlett?

  Explain the Big Bang to me like I'm fifteen.

• 21:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll explain to you like you're twelve.

• 21:10Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, please, even better.

• 21:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So approximately thirteen point eight billion years ago, everything that you see and interact with in this universe began in an infinitesimal point. That is the birth of the space and time of our universe. We have been expanding ever since. Now, how does something that big ever become that small? Well, it's not matter trying to occupy the same space as itself. Energy can be essentially any size compacted. And then you can measure what's there by what the temperature is. And so very hot fireball, basically.

• 21:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And as it expands, it cools and the cooling energy makes matter. It's equals mc squared. Energy on one side, mass on the other side. This c squared is just the speed of light, just a constant. But Einstein came up with this in nineteen oh five, and it made so much of the universe make sense at that point. And so, and it would take a while. Do we expand? The, we cool enough to make stars and galaxies, and we're still expanding to this day. There are mysterious forces operating that we don't yet understand, what we call dark energy. That's a pressure in the vacuum of space, making us expand faster than what would be allowed by the collective gravity of all the galaxies.

• 22:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a frontier question that is not yet resolved. Then there's sources of gravity that we don't know what's causing it. We call that dark matter. If you add up dark matter and dark energy, it's ninety five percent of what's driving the universe. So everything you and I know and love about the biology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, forces, food, calories, molecules, solids, liquids, gas, it's five percent of what's going on in the universe.

• 23:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's amazing. And this is why, when I began, I said to you, sometimes I wonder whether we are smart enough to figure out the entirety of the universe. Would we just figure out our little, our little fraction of it and, and live happily ever after within it? Now, that scenario, you have full rights to ask, what was around before that? So ask me that.

• 23:44Steven Bartlett?

  What was around before the Big Bang?

• 23:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We have no idea. Well, we have suspicions. There might have been a multiverse, which has come out of latter day mathematics related to quantum physics and Einstein's relativity. What comes out of those equations is a multiverse.

• 24:01Steven Bartlett?

  What's a multiverse?

• 24:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of just, it's, it's this medium that is pumping out universes. We are just one of them.

• 24:07Steven Bartlett?

  What caused the multiverse?

• 24:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We don't know.

• 24:11Steven Bartlett?

  Eventually.

• 24:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a, it's a frontier. There's no crime in asking the question at the frontier of our knowledge. There are people who have to have answers. They don't make good scientists. The urge to have an answer can be influenced by their bias, by their culture, by their, just take a look at all around the world, the origin stories. The origin stories flow out of the cultures from which they emanated.

• 24:39Steven Bartlett?

  What are your untested, unverified, untestable ideas about where all of this universe stuff might have gone? Because I know you must sit at home sometimes and just mull. You do a lot of mulling about the origins of the, the Big Bang and those things.

• 24:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, we all do. I just, so when you, when you confront the unknown, you write the recipe for more data.

• 25:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's all it is.

• 25:03Steven Bartlett?

  And what are those recipes that you've written?

• 25:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's what we need to tell us. We have telescopes. I haven't written, I mean, my field has written them. We have telescopes specifically designed right now to get a better understanding of dark energy and its manifestation throughout time in the history of the universe.

• 25:19Steven Bartlett?

  Explain dark energy to me like I'm twelve.

• 25:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it's just, it's, it's something in the vacuum of space that's making the universe accelerate in its expansion.

• 25:29Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 25:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From that original explosion, we have all the galaxies, all the matter, all the gravity. You expect the expansion to be slowing down at some rate based on the gravity.

• 25:40Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, but it's speeding up.

• 25:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like tossing something in the air. Gravity of earth slows it down and actually makes it reverse. So we expect that. We went to make that measurement and we got the opposite answer. The universe is accelerating. That won a Nobel Prize. Nineteen ninety eight Nobel Prize. It's a term in Einstein's equation that he rejected. So there can't be a negative gravity. What the, its value in his equation must equal zero. And so let's move on. Then we discover it. We, we come up with a term for it. I think it's a bad term, bad because it's, it leaves the witness. We don't know what it is at all. So don't call it dark and don't call it energy.

• 26:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Call it Fred, okay? Something. And dark matter? We don't know what that is either. Okay? Let's call that Wilma. We got Fred and Wilma. We don't know what it is.

• 26:32Steven Bartlett?

  There should be a button just down below here. And if it says subscribe, you're already subscribed. If it says subscriber, that means you're not yet. And if you're not subscribed, please could you do us a favor and hit that button? It helps the show more than you know. And according to the algorithm, you're someone that watches our show, but you haven't yet hit that button. Thank you so much. So the, the key question, I think, that people are talking about at this moment in time, because you had Obama make those comments in that interview saying that he, he was joking, I think he was joking when he said, there are aliens he's just never seen.

• 27:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. First, A, Obama is scientifically literate. It's A. B, he said, because he's scientifically literate, he said, what is scientifically defensible? That there probably aliens in the universe. Anyone who studied that problem will arrive at that conclusion. They're real, but I haven't seen them and, and, and they're not being kept in, what is it?

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Area fifty one?

• 27:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Area fifty one. There, there's no underground facility unless there's this enormous conspiracy and they, they hid it from the President of the United States. That's what he said. But as former president of the United States, and we have sort of alien adjacent culture, it was, oh, that must mean there are aliens in the basement of the White House or somewhere in, in, in government custody. They took his statement that, sure, there are aliens out there and turned it on to the US government. And when I heard his comments, that's exactly what any scientifically literate person would say.

• 28:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What people did with that information, he, he then had to come back and explain. I didn't even think that was necessary, but apparently it was.

• 28:15Steven Bartlett?

  And then Trump responded.

• 28:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Trump responded, okay.

• 28:18Steven Bartlett?

  On Air Force One in an interview and said.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Well, he gave classified information. He's not supposed to be doing that, you know?

• 28:25Speaker 04

  So aliens are real?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if they're real or not. I can tell you, he gave classified information. He's not supposed to be doing that. He made a, he made a big mistake. He took it out of classified information.

• 28:36Steven Bartlett?

  Trump seemed to stoke

• 28:40Steven Bartlett?

  the idea that there is aliens. And then from that, shortly after, we had the UFO files announcement.

• 28:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sure, great. Bring them out. I love it.

• 28:48Steven Bartlett?

  That they were going to release the UFO files. And now we find ourselves at a place where the general public is again, really, really curious about the subject of aliens. And you see it on the Google trend data, which I've got in front of me here. You see the up, the down, the up, the down, based on what people are talking about. So my question to you is about, is this central question, which is, do you believe there's intelligent life in the universe?

• 29:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that, one of those peaks in May, in part, was because there were files released that week by the Pentagon. And dare I suggest, my book was released in May, on May twelfth.

• 29:16Steven Bartlett?

  Good timing.

• 29:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, it just turned out that way. I decided to jump into the ring, not jump in, put a foot into the ring, more accurately, when I saw these, these high ranking whistleblowers come forward in, in Congress, sworn testimony.

• 29:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Whistleblowers, former intelligence officers, former military folk. And I said, all right, I have to, it's time to jump in. Because no longer can you discount the testimony the way you might have done so before with the farmer in the back forty, you know, who saw something and is talking about it, but didn't take a picture of it. All right? All these testimonies that have existed in the past and accounts of UFOs, now when official government people are doing it, then, all right, it's time to take it up a notch. And what is it, what do I mean by that?

• 30:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Bring out the alien. If you're saying you got an alien in the shed, in the back forty, just bring it out. And the moment you do that, no one will ever have to ask again, do you believe in aliens?

• 30:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the question I've been asked. Do I believe in aliens? No one has ever asked me, do I believe in elephants? Why? Because we've shown elephants. Okay? We have elephants. We've seen elephants. So.

• 30:51Steven Bartlett?

  But do you think there's intelligent life in the universe?

• 30:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't see why there wouldn't be, given the size of the universe and the age in the universe and the ingredients of the universe. I mean, think about it. The early Earth, life got underway within a hundred million years of as early as it possibly could have. That sounds like a long time and it is, but that's small compared with the timeline of Earth itself, of life on Earth. It's like five percent of the timeline of the Earth. Almost as fast as it could possibly happen, the basic ingredients on Earth, which match the basic ingredients of the universe, went from organic molecules to self-replicating life. Whatever our challenges in the lab, Earth didn't seem to have a

• 31:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  problem accomplishing it. And so look how quickly that happened. Yes, it would take a long time, much longer, to generate what we're calling intelligent life. But given how many planets are likely in the galaxy, our catalogs now have six thousand exoplanets in them. And that's just in a tiny little area. That being a little circle, that being a little, you know, if, if the sun is here, do a little bit circle around it where we've searched for exoplanets and we have six thousand just in that little.

• 32:11Steven Bartlett?

  What's an exoplanet?

• 32:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Exoplanet, planet orbiting another star.

• 32:15Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, there's six thousand in a little.

• 32:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We've catalogued six thousand. In nineteen ninety five, what year are you born?

• 32:21Steven Bartlett?

  Ninety two.

• 32:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ninety two. So you were three years old when we discovered our first exoplanet.

• 32:29Steven Bartlett?

  Really? Wow.

• 32:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And now we're, we're rising through six thousand. It was banner headlines back then, not today. But if life happened on Earth as swiftly as it did, no one of, among us who've studied the problem are given reason to doubt that it couldn't happen frequently elsewhere in our galaxy or in the trillion other galaxies in the universe.

• 32:54Steven Bartlett?

  This is just the Milky Way galaxy.

• 32:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is a version, yeah, we, this is, if you could step out of our Milky Way, it would resemble this greatly.

• 33:02Steven Bartlett?

  And this is one galaxy, right?

• 33:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  One galaxy containing hundreds of billions of stars. This cloudy thing, you cannot resolve the cloud into the individual stars. Galileo did this. He said, I wonder what that Milky Way is. Is that just a cloud? Took his telescope, put it on the Milky Way. He saw individual stars.

• 33:21Steven Bartlett?

  And how many galaxies are there in the universe?

• 33:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hundred billion stars in a galaxy, at least a hundred billion galaxies in the universe.

• 33:27Steven Bartlett?

  Is the answer that we just don't know how many there are?

• 33:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's quantify what it is to not know. In the universe,

• 33:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  things range over such a huge scale

• 33:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  that if you're off by a factor of two, which sounds significant in most everyday life, but if things range over factors of trillions,

• 33:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  then if you can get an answer within a factor of two, you're doing really well. You have a basic understanding of structure, space and time. And so our galaxy has several hundred billion stars in it. No, we don't have an exact count, but that's a very good estimate because we know the total mass of the galaxy. And we know how much mass a star occupies. We know how much dark matter there is. So we can calculate the likely number of stars there are in the galaxy.

• 34:23Steven Bartlett?

  Planets?

• 34:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So now, given our data on planets that we've obtained, we have many star systems with multiple planets. And that's just in our neighborhood. So if that's representative, then you just scale that up. So if you looked in that little zone everywhere and just up the number, you end up with millions of planets, possibly billions across the galaxy. That's how you would estimate that. So it's not knowing the exact answer is not the same thing as having no clue.

• 34:54Steven Bartlett?

  And there might be hundreds of billions of galaxies.

• 34:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes. Not just might be, there's at least that many. In the observable universe.

• 35:04Steven Bartlett?

  In the observable.

• 35:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The actual universe goes beyond our horizon in the same way for a ship at sea. You have a horizon. Are you saying to yourself, well, that's the edge of the earth or that's the edge of the ocean? No. You keep sailing and more ocean comes in view.

• 35:19Steven Bartlett?

  Is it infinite?

• 35:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It might be. We don't know. You're asking all good questions. And you're going right to the edge of what we don't know.

• 35:27Steven Bartlett?

  Is it possible for something to be infinite?

• 35:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm not gonna put a prerequisite on the universe that it's not.

• 35:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just because infinity is kind of hard for the human brain to wrap your head around, doesn't mean the universe can't or shouldn't be it. We've made assumptions about the universe, just to be consistent with our own philosophies, that just turn out to be flat wrong. Copernicus, a religious man, comes up with an idea that maybe the sun is in the center of the known universe and not Earth. So we go from geocentric to heliocentric. All right? Well, if you do that, then we don't have epicycles. All right? Then we just have orbits, simple orbits around the sun. Well, he did that. You know, it didn't match the observations as well as the epicycles did.

• 36:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So do you throw out the whole idea? No, we would learn later, fifty years later. The orbits are not perfect circles. He made them perfect circles because it's the universe. God created the universe. God is perfect. The circle is a perfect geometric shape. Clearly, anything moving in the universe is going to be in a perfect circle. That was an assumption placed on the universe derived from our own philosophical proclivities. In that case, a religiously philosophical proclivity. So, given this exercise, this failed exercise in the history of science, of which there are many examples one can give, I will not say that the universe can't be infinite.

• 37:03Steven Bartlett?

  What's in the middle of the galaxy? Because it looks like a, a light.

• 37:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's a black hole. Well, just, in this picture, the density of stars is way higher in the middle of the galaxy than out here.

• 37:13Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 37:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're figuring that out. We think in the formation scenario of the galaxy, then most of the mass is near the center and it gets thinner as it comes out. And so we're going to have the most stars, where the most mass is that you start with. So it's not, it's not a surprise that the middles of these things have the most stars because they have the most mass. And in the exact middle, in the center, is a supermassive black hole,

• 37:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  which we've measured to be there. In fact, a Nobel Prize was given for that measurement.

• 37:46Steven Bartlett?

  Can you explain what a black hole is like I'm twelve?

• 37:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah. You know, at first you gotta respect black holes. Give them, don't ever diss a black hole because you will lose. So we're, we're here on Earth and

• 38:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  the old adage, what goes up must come down. You've heard that. I would learn by the time I was nine that that's just false. No, by the time I was ten. Because I was ten years old, because that's how old I am, we walked on the moon. And then we left, you know, rocket parts on the moon. Those are never coming back to Earth. So there are things that went up that never came back. Okay? All right.

• 38:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, what started the adage, though? Well, if you take something and toss it,

• 38:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  it actually slows down, comes to a stop, and then speeds up and comes down again.

• 38:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's captured by Earth's gravity. Turns out there is a speed with which I can throw this

• 38:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  so that it never comes back.

• 38:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's get there. If I throw this a little faster with more energy, it goes higher before it comes back, right? How about even faster? Even faster. It gets higher and higher and higher and higher and higher. You can calculate using physics and gravity equations, there's a speed with which this will go so high up, it'll reach infinity.

• 39:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If it reaches infinity, it's not coming back. That's called the escape velocity for Earth. How fast is that? It's really fast, really fast. Seven miles per second.

• 39:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If I throw this at seven miles per second, it'll reach the edge of the universe and never come back to Earth. Suppose Earth had more gravity than it currently does. Does it make sense that that escape velocity would be greater than seven miles per second? If Earth's gravity were stronger, it might be ten miles per second, a hundred miles per second.

• 39:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Keep up this exercise. You'll reach a point where your object has an escape velocity that equals the speed of light.

• 39:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The moment it achieves that, light cannot escape.

• 40:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not moving fast enough. And if light can't get out, it's black.

• 40:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If you fall in, you are never coming out because you can't ever reach the speed of light. There's no greater definition of a hole than that. Hence, black hole.

• 40:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  By the way, Einstein could have predicted them, but it was too weird for him to go there with his equations. We would learn about black holes mathematically in the 1960s, make our first discovery of one in the 1970s. A famous source of X-ray energy called Cygnus X1. And now they're common, and we've even discovered them in the centers of galaxies that have super, like a million times the mass of the sun. Monstrous black holes, dining on anything that comes close.

• 41:02Steven Bartlett?

  Just things that come close?

• 41:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, it's not going to reach out. So if the sun were to become a black hole now, it won't reach out and grab us and suck us in. It'll have the same gravity as a black hole as it does as a star.

• 41:17Steven Bartlett?

  But it's if you go close?

• 41:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, now you can get really close to it, and then you're not coming out.

• 41:22Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a certain distance where?

• 41:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It turns out there is. There's a distance around every black hole. I think it's called the ergosphere. It's got a name where there are no stable orbits around it. You get closer than that, you will fall in no matter what. Whereas beyond it, you can maintain a stable orbit and look at black holes from a distance.

• 41:46Steven Bartlett?

  And where'd you go if you get sucked in?

• 41:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well.

• 41:49Steven Bartlett?

  You crushed or you?

• 41:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it depends how big the black hole is. Small black holes, that's all she wrote, okay?

• 41:57Steven Bartlett?

  This one?

• 41:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, that one, you'll fall in.

• 41:59Steven Bartlett?

  And then where do I go? I'm just collapsed.

• 42:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, there are books, I have one on my shelf, and I've even read it. It's a graduate textbook that describes the mathematics of space and time on the other side of a black hole. And it shows that a whole new spacetime opens up in front of you.

• 42:22Steven Bartlett?

  What?

• 42:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Inside the black hole, the whole universe. The math shows that. Given the general theory of relativity, which gives us black holes in the first place, if you follow the math, you get a whole spacetime that opens up inside the black hole. And as you fall in, your time changes. So time ticks more slowly for you relative to the universe. It's called time dilation. And so as you look out in the universe, the universe will unfold faster and faster and faster. And you will see the entire future history of the universe unfold as you descend into the black hole.

• 42:58Steven Bartlett?

  When you say descend, because I thought of it as like, you know, if you go close to a black hole, you're going to be crushed into a small mass.

• 43:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, I didn't get to that part yet. I'm describing what happens to space and time as you descend through what's called the event horizon. That's the region out of which you don't escape. That's the functional size we give to black holes. How big is its event horizon? You cross over within that volume, that's where the escape velocity is greater than the speed of light. And you're not coming in. So it has taken the fabric of space and time and folded it back on itself. So there's no pathway you can take to get out of a black hole. You're in there forever. And for the small black holes, here's an interesting fact. You don't think about this, but it's true. When you stand, your feet are closer to Earth's center than your head is.

• 43:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay?

• 43:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You can calculate what the force of Earth's gravity is at your feet, and the force of Earth's gravity is at your head, and you'll get two different numbers. They're very close to each other, so we don't think about this. It doesn't matter to us. But as you descend a black hole, the difference in gravity between your feet and your head gets greater and greater and greater. They're called tidal forces, and they end up stretching you head to toe.

• 44:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And initially, it probably feels good, right? You just sort of stretch, and then you realize, oh my gosh, this is unrelenting, and it's getting stronger. Eventually, you'll snap into two pieces, likely separated at the base of your spine, if you sort of look at the structural integrity of human physiology. And then you're still falling, and now those same tidal forces will operate on your torso and on your lower half. They'll stretch and they'll snap into two pieces. So you go from one to two to four to eight to 16, and you'll bifurcate in pieces all the way down to the center of the black hole. The worst part is, well, maybe equally as worse,

• 45:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  is you're occupying a narrower and narrower volume of spacetime as you go down to the singularity that is the center of the black hole. So not only you get stretched head to toe, you're getting extruded through the fabric of space, like toothpaste through a tube.

• 45:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Have a nice day. So, yeah, you don't want to test, all of our equations tell us that's what will happen to you.

• 45:35Steven Bartlett?

  What's at the heart of the black hole? You said you pulled it down.

• 45:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We don't know. So here's a problem. General relativity that gives us the black hole in the first place. If you follow the equations, the center of the black hole is infinitely dense and infinitely small. How does that even happen? We don't know. Maybe something prevents that. But that is the limit of Einstein's general theory of relativity.

• 46:01Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things you've heard me talk about quite a lot over the last couple of years, and this is something that's true in business and content, but also with everything in life, is that consistency is the thing that really, really compounds. The same is true in sales. When your team is small, consistency happens naturally. The team knows of every deal, so nothing gets missed. But as I've experienced, when you grow, this starts to break down, and deals start to slip, follow-ups don't happen, leads go cold that shouldn't have. And when this happens, a lot of leaders look at it and think they have a people problem, when actually, it's a systems problem. The businesses that I've watched scale well commercially all have a system their team uses every single day. And for my team, that system has been our sponsor, Pipe Drive. It's an easy-to-use intelligent CRM tool for growing sales teams

• 46:43Steven Bartlett?

  that gives you visibility of every deal in your sales pipeline at every single stage, and it shows you what needs to happen for that deal to move forward all in real time. It's what keeps our commercial operation consistent when we're a team of five or when our commercial team was a team of 50. Over 100,000 companies are already running their sales on it. So if you'd like to join them, sign up at pipedrive.com/CEO, where you'll get an exclusive 30-day free trial instead of the usual 14 days, and there's no credit card needed at all. Head to pipedrive.com/CEO.

• 47:18Steven Bartlett?

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• 48:02Steven Bartlett?

  Whether you're building an audience on social media, launching an online course, or rolling out training across your team, check out HeyGen now. Your first three videos are totally free at heygen.com/DOAC. That's H-E-Y-G-E-N dot com slash D-O-A-C. See you there. So aliens, in our galaxy, is that possible? That there's intelligent life in our galaxy in your view?

• 48:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I have no reason to doubt it.

• 48:28Steven Bartlett?

  Really? You think it's, on a balance of probability, you think it's more probable than not?

• 48:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah. Just given the size, like I said, given the age, the size, the ingredients, the how quickly life got underway. By the way, when you say intelligent,

• 48:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  there's intelligent life on Earth. Like, do you know where we are in brain size?

• 48:52Steven Bartlett?

  Relative to other animals?

• 48:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 48:55Steven Bartlett?

  We're not the top?

• 48:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we're definitely not the top.

• 48:57Steven Bartlett?

  I have no idea.

• 48:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, we're like fourth.

• 48:59Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 48:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's the whale, and then the dolphin, and then the porcupus, and then the elephant, and then us. So if aliens came to Earth and they knew that brains are important, we'd be like fourth on their list for who they want to talk to. Just chew on that for a moment. Second, what we were told in school was, oh, but if you take the ratio of the size of your brain to your body weight, we're at the top. Well, that's our ego speaking there. We didn't have the biggest brain, but we want to believe that we're smart. And so is there some math magic we can perform on brain size to put us back at the top of that list?

• 49:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. Ratio, the size of your brain to the mass of your brain to the mass of your body, then we're at the top. However, what they didn't say is that, no, we're not at the top of that list. We're only at the top of that list among mammals. There are mid-sized birds, like the magpie and the parrots, where the ratio of their brain size to their body weight is greater than that of humans.

• 50:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So look at the efforts we put in to just distinguish ourselves from all these other animals, and it's quite the exercise in ego stoking.

• 50:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You want to think you're special in the tree of life. There are birds that fly, and we can't fly. Newts can regenerate their limbs, and we can't do that. And so badly do we want to, especially with military veterans, right? With missing limbs and things. You want to regenerate that. We can't do, newts can do that. Crustaceans can do that. We can't do that. So might an alien consider whales to be intelligent? Probably. But we add extra elements to this. Do you have technology? The whale is not building telescopes, but we are.

• 51:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The whale doesn't, you know, have art, but we do, all right? So we are a thing. We have what we call civilization. So if you want to ask, are there intelligent aliens that have civilization? That's yet another layer of that question, is there intelligent life in the universe? Then you can ask, is there intelligent life that has civilization that has technology? Because the Roman Empire, they didn't know anything about electricity or computers or AI or anything. And if aliens were sending them radio signals, they're not sending radio signals back. So the operational definition of intelligence might include your ability to communicate across space

• 51:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  or your ability to build a spaceship to move. The Romans were not building spaceships. So would they count as intelligence if that was an alien species somewhere else in the galaxy?

• 52:07Steven Bartlett?

  But is it plausible that there is intelligent life in this universe that hasn't got the capability of visiting Earth?

• 52:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, sure, why not? Sure. That's probably the standard.

• 52:18Steven Bartlett?

  How far can we have we gone?

• 52:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a great question. The fastest spaceship ever launched was the New Horizons mission to Pluto. And one thing in space exploration, there's an unwritten rule. However you design the spacecraft, make sure it gets to your destination before you get old and die.

• 52:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So this spacecraft that went to Pluto was on the most powerful rockets available, and they made the payload as light as possible so it could accelerate. And so it got to Pluto quickly. If you instead took that and directed it to the nearest star, the Alpha Centauri system, instead of going to Pluto, at those speeds, direct the nearest star, take you 50,000 years to get there.

• 53:07Steven Bartlett?

  50,000 years?

• 53:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The nearest star!

• 53:09Steven Bartlett?

  To Earth?

• 53:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, to the sun.

• 53:11Steven Bartlett?

  And how many stars did you say that was again?

• 53:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, 100 billion, hundreds of billions.

• 53:15Steven Bartlett?

  And the nearest one would take 50,000 years?

• 53:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  50,000 years to reach.

• 53:18Steven Bartlett?

  Gosh.

• 53:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because space is empty. Right. So maybe there are intelligent aliens out there, but space travel's too hard, so they haven't come to visit us. This is one of the hypotheses, because if aliens are everywhere, then where are they?

• 53:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I think they came to Earth and they saw all of our debris orbiting the Earth. There's a lot of space debris. And they said, I'm not coming, I'm not going to risk my life. They just passed us by looking for another planet.

• 53:48Steven Bartlett?

  I've wondered about this space debris thing, because it seems that every nation...

• 53:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's worse than you think.

• 53:53Steven Bartlett?

  But what I was going to say is, every nation now seems to be racing to throw tens of thousands of pieces of metal satellites into our orbit. Is it a problem?

• 54:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well.

• 54:05Steven Bartlett?

  There's no laws, is there?

• 54:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, you have to ask, who is it a problem for? Is it a problem? Yes. Who's it a problem for? Not the people who want high-speed internet in the middle of the ocean or in the Arctic or in the middle of the desert. Because these satellites, the SpaceX Starlink satellites, are providing that in these remote places of the world. So it's not a problem for them. It's a blessing. It's a problem if you're just trying to observe the night sky the way we've done as astronomers since time immemorial. And I'm trying to get images of the night sky, and I see satellites crossing back and forth. This amounts to visual noise in my data.

• 54:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if I'm trying to track an asteroid that might be headed our way and have thousands of other streaks of light in my image, there's a chance I might miss the asteroid.

• 55:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Also, if there's some object of interest and a satellite passes right in front of it, that will contaminate the data that I seek. I don't know if this is reversible, but what it tells me is that the future of telescopes are going to have to be spaceborne telescopes, which we've already made that transition, and/or the moon. Telescopes on the moon.

• 55:27Steven Bartlett?

  They've launched roughly 5,000 satellites objects into orbit in 2025. We're on track to launch even more than that this year.

• 55:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's correct. We've probably already launched that by now. We're being recorded mid-year 2026. We're already high up there. So the last number I saw, SpaceX had 10,510 satellites.

• 55:54Steven Bartlett?

  There'll be 100,000 active satellites in orbit by 2040.

• 55:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Probably more. This is the utility of space. Not only for reconnaissance, for surveillance, basically military security, but also commerce. There is no Uber without GPS. So it's not the value of the satellites themselves that matters here. It's the value of the economy, the economies that they enable. And that's why we have a space force now, a space force which has been percolating for decades. Trump, in Trump One, decided, let's make this official, and so he did. So now we have a space force, and people say, oh, does that mean there's going to be like Star Wars and everything? There already was a space force. They didn't call it that. It was called the Air Force Space Command.

• 56:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was a sector within the Air Force. And so you pull that out, now the mission is a little more pure about what its goals are and what it needs to accomplish.

• 56:55Steven Bartlett?

  Have you heard about Kessler syndrome?

• 56:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 56:58Steven Bartlett?

  Could you explain Kessler syndrome?

• 57:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah. So 1978, I don't remember who's a physicist or a mathematician named Kessler, who saw the increase in satellite launches that had been going on, and he did a calculation, and he said, hmm, there must be some threshold of satellites orbiting the Earth where if one of them gets destroyed by any means, maybe two collide with each other, or one is intentionally taken out by a missile, which has happened three times now, three or four times. China's done it, India's done it, Russia's done it, and we've done it four times. We've done it to our own satellites, which means what?

• 57:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Think about it. If you can do it to your own satellite, you can do it to anybody else's satellite. It's a demonstration of your sovereignty in a way, of your powers over what you might perceive as an aggressor. Anyhow, if you destroy a satellite,

• 58:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  let's say it breaks into 10 pieces,

• 58:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  each going orbital speed. Orbital speed is 17,000 miles an hour. That's way faster than a rifle bullet. So little pieces of satellite can be far more devastating than a high-powered rifle bullet shot into another satellite. All right, so these pieces scatter. If any one of them hits another satellite, breaking it into 10 pieces, you go from one to 10 to 100 to 1,000 within just a few orbits.

• 58:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  100% of the satellite can be taken out if you have enough satellites for that thresholding to take place. So in other words, if low Earth orbit space is mostly empty and you destroy a satellite, the particles are not going to take out another satellite. They'll orbit harmlessly or fall to Earth harmlessly. But if you have another satellite in that path, then that destruction is going to take out other satellites. So he warned us of these thresholds. I don't think we're there yet, but we need to keep it on our radar. And the movie Gravity, it portrays exactly that scenario.

• 59:23Steven Bartlett?

  Objects in orbit travel at blistering speeds, 17,500 miles per hour.

• 59:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Correct. Just five miles per second.

• 59:30Steven Bartlett?

  At that speed, even a fleck of paint carries the destructive power of a bullet.

• 59:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, a rifle bullet.

• 59:35Steven Bartlett?

  Or an exploding grenade.

• 59:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Correct, correct.

• 59:39Steven Bartlett?

  A fleck of paint?

• 59:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 59:42Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, that makes sense. So if there's one collision and there's lots of them up there, it's like shrapnel.

• 59:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, correct. Yeah, shrapnel is the best analog to that. Because it comes out and it damages other things beyond the target that was intended.

• 59:58Steven Bartlett?

  And there's no laws up there, is there?

• 1:00:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, they're trying to, you know, space law is a Wild West at this point. Forget orbit. It's like you go to the moon. Who owns the moon? Who owns a plot of land on Mars?

• 1:00:12Steven Bartlett?

  Nobody.

• 1:00:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, they're trying to figure that out.

• 1:00:15Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:00:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If I go to an asteroid and I want to mine it for its minerals, who owns those minerals?

• 1:00:20Steven Bartlett?

  So they're trying to figure out who owns the moon?

• 1:00:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, owns anything in space. Anything in space.

• 1:00:25Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't it just who gets there first?

• 1:00:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes.

• 1:00:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's what I mean by the Wild West.

• 1:00:31Steven Bartlett?

  At the moment, it seems like there's a race to go to the moon. A lot of companies are interested in that. We've got this Artemis program happening. The US seem interested. Why are people so interested in going to the moon? And is there merit in their motivations?

• 1:00:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, we could have stayed on the moon in nineteen seventy two, but we didn't. Could have gone in nineteen eighty, but we didn't. Nineteen ninety, we didn't. Two thousand, no. Two thousand and ten, no. Oh, what happened in the twenty teens? Oh, I know what happened. We learned that China wants to put astronauts on the moon. Tycanauts, they call them. We then say, hey, wouldn't it be good if we went back to the moon? That's an interesting idea. Let's do that. Happened under the first Trump administration. So the Artemis mission gets birthed. Artemis. Do you remember who Artemis was in Greek mythology? Artemis is the twin sister of Apollo. That's good. That is going to name a program. That's good. Twin sister of Apollo.

• 1:01:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we say, we're going to go back to the moon. My read of that landscape is that China put a flame under our ass. No different really from when Russia first launched the satellite Sputnik. Put a flame under our ass. Within a year, we created NASA. By the way, it may take just such a thing to bring Congress together for a unified project. Do you remember when we had the testimonies in Congress of the whistleblowers? We had Republicans sitting right next to Democrats asking questions about aliens. And so there's everyone paying attention to the aliens.

• 1:02:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I said, wow, Republicans and Democrats are agreed on some process in Washington. I thought that was, that was a beautiful fact.

• 1:02:22Steven Bartlett?

  So what are our motivations now to go to the moon? Is there an economic upside to it?

• 1:02:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it's geopolitical. China says they're going to the moon. Fifty years after we go to the moon and we all of a sudden decide we want to go to the moon? Let's be real about that. And while that came out under Trump, Biden comes in, we keep the program. Biden could have said, this is a Trumpist thing. I don't want to do, you know, he could have done that. And what would have anyone said? But he didn't because NASA has, is a geopolitically responsive organization.

• 1:02:54Steven Bartlett?

  So what if China get there first? Why does that matter?

• 1:02:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There are geopolitical egos.

• 1:03:02Steven Bartlett?

  Just ego?

• 1:03:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. I mean, did you see the hearings in Congress with the head of NASA? When they're asking, why did China land on the far side of the moon? What do they know that's there that we don't? Okay, this is the competitive urges that we have. And don't delude yourself into thinking we ever went to the moon for science then or now.

• 1:03:27Steven Bartlett?

  What about resources? Is there resources on the moon?

• 1:03:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're looking for them. NASA has an entire branch of itself called in situ resource utilization, ISRU. You go there, we think there's water at the South Pole. So you go get the water. Maybe if you get a three D printer, you can take, you know, the silicates from the moon's surface, dump it in on top and make tools, whatever. That would be interesting. There's a whole piece of space exploration that concerns itself with that. Because you can't take everything with you.

• 1:03:59Steven Bartlett?

  Is it cold on the moon or hot?

• 1:04:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It depends on if you're facing the sun or not. Because we say, is it cold? You're generally referring to the temperature of the air around you. That's what you mean. Well, fix the thermostat, change the air temperature. Where there is no air, your temperature comes from any source of or absence of a source of energy. So if you face the sun, this side of you will burn up and the side of you on the other side will freeze. So what we really need are rotisseries or a highly insulated spacesuit.

• 1:04:34Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think in my lifetime, it's three days away, isn't it, the moon?

• 1:04:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So you can get there quicker, but the minimum energy to do so will take you three days.

• 1:04:44Steven Bartlett?

  Don't you think that would be a great tourist destination?

• 1:04:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of course, completely.

• 1:04:48Steven Bartlett?

  Three days?

• 1:04:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I would save up multiple years of vacation money to go to the moon. Yes, completely. If you can bring the price of that down, make the moon our backyard. So what I wanted to be clear earlier, when you says there are economic reason to go to the moon, not initially, until you set up bases and hotels and restaurants and this sort of thing. And if you have restaurants, there'd be really weird food that they would serve, right? Like in moon gravity.

• 1:05:16Steven Bartlett?

  I travel all the time. I made a rule in my life that I'll only travel with a cabin bag. The problem with this is not much space. And here's the solution. It is called an Exter one percent travel pack. And I teamed up with Exter to make this. Typically, I can only bring some of my black shirts. And it's a trade off of which black shirt shall I bring? How many of these do you think I can get in here? So let's try one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. Let's try fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty four. Okay, so that's twenty four black T shirts. Here's where the magic comes in. Zip it up, make sure it's nice and sealed, and then you use this little contraption.

• 1:06:01Steven Bartlett?

  Stick it on there. I can now take more than twenty black shirts with me, which will last me three weeks. So if you travel frequently and you want to get one of these, you can save more space and be away for longer. Go to exte.com and use code DOAC for 10% off our collection. The UFO files, I'm assuming you've seen all the footage that's been released.

• 1:06:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, most of it, there's a redundancy after a certain point.

• 1:06:24Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, it's this kind of stuff where they're showing objects flying through space.

• 1:06:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Typically, it's monochromatic and very low resolution as this is. That's correct.

• 1:06:32Steven Bartlett?

  Was any of it compelling to you?

• 1:06:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, it's something that we don't know what it is. It's, let's back up. Even UFO enthusiasts of the most severe kind would agree that most sightings of what we call UFOs have natural explanations, that you just didn't know what you were looking at. And then you figure it out later. Is it a cloud formation? Is it lightning? Is it twilight conditions? Sure. But then there's some that no one knows how to explain. I don't have a problem with that. There's some that are sort of interesting. I like the Tic Tac. Tic Tac is fun.

• 1:07:11Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah, the Tic Tac.

• 1:07:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The famous Tic Tac.

• 1:07:12Steven Bartlett?

  What's interesting about that?

• 1:07:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, because I don't know what it is. I'm a scientist. We are attracted to things that we don't know or understand, attracted to them. It's cool. Yeah, that's it. There it goes. Yeah. And you can see it move in one of the frames. And you can see it sort of gimbal in one of the frames. So let's see, it's coming up in just a second. And of course, it's combined with the statements of the pilots, how shocked they are and how surprised. There it is. That's kind of fun. It looks like one of the alien spacecraft that Steven Spielberg showed in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. But that's not what intrigues me.

• 1:07:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What intrigues me is we have whistleblowers saying we have actual aliens. So I'm, give me the actual alien.

• 1:08:06Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think if we did, we would tell the public?

• 1:08:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  People testified we have aliens, that we have alien crashed parts, that we have reverse engineered alien technology, that we have no end of movies portraying aliens. And somebody says, oh, we're not ready to see an actual alien. Of course, we're ready. Hollywood has prepped us for decades for this day. I think it'll be charming. What would surprise me most is if the alien were humanoid. Most Hollywood renderings of aliens are humanoid, with they had two eyes, a nose, mouth, ears. Oh, they're bald. Okay. Or they're pointy ears or they've got, but they're still walking and they still got elbows and fingers and knees.

• 1:08:53Steven Bartlett?

  Like this.

• 1:08:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And.

• 1:08:55Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, we've got ones like this as well.

• 1:08:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we've got, there's a good ET. This looks like the xenomorph. And this one looks like Predator. Okay. So notice, they all have eyes. There's a mouth. There's, you know, teeth, because teeth are scary. And this is humanoid. These are humanoid. This is a little more reptilian, I would say. It's definitely vertebrate, but it has a tail. So these are humanoid characters. I would be most surprised if the alien was humanoid.

• 1:09:28Steven Bartlett?

  What would you expect them to be based in the atmosphere of the universe?

• 1:09:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I would expect it to not be humanoid. Most life on Earth is not humanoid. And we have DNA in common with all life on Earth. And most life is not human. Oak trees, worms, lobsters, none of those life forms are humanoid. And so here we are, we have, you know, oh, by the way, the xenomorph is not building spaceships. So if this comes to Earth, it's because we brought it here, not because it flew. Okay. Based on its conduct. It looks like it just want to be parasitic. ET has fingers and, you know, it looks like ET can build a spaceship. And this is just a hunting mission with the alien.

• 1:10:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Notice that its eyes are even the same separation of our eyes. And so this is, there's an actor in this costume and the actor is human. That's really what this comes down to. Yeah, that's good photos you got here. Oh, hey. So in the book I stumbled on, I didn't come up with these. I stumbled on the fact that people who care about sightings, aliens, not UFO sightings, alien sightings, people who've said they've seen aliens. By the way, like I said, that whole exercise didn't reach the fever pitch until you had whistleblowers saying they've met aliens under oath in Congress

• 1:10:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  and not the drunkards coming out of the bar at 2 AM. Okay. So they divide into archetypes. So little green men, that's, you know, we had a lot of those back in the 50s and 60s. And of course, the fact that we would even use the adjective men meant they're humanoid. Okay, little green men. So that's one variety. Another one, what do we have here? This one is much more common today, the grays. Okay, the gray alien color. These also tend to be bald. So these are the two most common.

• 1:11:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then there are others, Arcturians, they're from the star Arcturus, Lyrians from the constellation Lyra, the harp in the sky.

• 1:11:47Steven Bartlett?

  We'll put these on the screen for anybody.

• 1:11:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sirius is aliens from the star system Sirius. So yeah, in my book, there's a dozen of them. Oh, the tall whites. Oh, insectoids, this is a good one. I love this one because we hate insects. Not, I can't speak for everyone. Insects are ugly to most humans, right? So if you have a creature that resembles an insect, you don't want to become friends with it.

• 1:12:14Steven Bartlett?

  If you listen to people that have done DMT, they often.

• 1:12:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, DMT, yeah.

• 1:12:18Steven Bartlett?

  They often cite seeing or meeting these types of.

• 1:12:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. And the commonality of that is intriguing. Rather than jump to a conclusion that they're all having some common interdimensional experience, it's easier for me to think that they all have human brains and the chemical is exciting the same part of each one of their brains and thereby sharing in some experience that. And plus, people, I don't know if they've done this across cultures. The English speaking cultures have reported many more alien sightings than other cultures. Vastly more sightings, which is a little weird. So either aliens just like visiting English speaking countries

• 1:13:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  or we just know better how to report what we see, which is probably what it is. But you go to other countries, they don't have this alien fixation.

• 1:13:15Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever done psychedelics?

• 1:13:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Never.

• 1:13:17Steven Bartlett?

  Are you curious about it?

• 1:13:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not really. Because the human brain barely works as it is. Barely. Just open up any book of optical illusions, turn to any page. Oh, is it bigger? Is it smaller? Is the line in the page, out of the page? I can't figure it out. Simple drawings confound your perceptions of reality.

• 1:13:48Steven Bartlett?

  But doesn't that mean that reality is fragile?

• 1:13:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. And so if I want to now stir chemicals into my brain as a scientist who values what is objectively true, since my brain barely works as it is, to put in chemicals, it's not clear to me that that gets me closer to any reality at all. And it's reality that I value in this world.

• 1:14:08Steven Bartlett?

  What?

• 1:14:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that's why, that's why I haven't done psychedelics.

• 1:14:11Steven Bartlett?

  What I think about is if I can inhale something and suddenly my subjective experience of reality is entirely, it's 4K and I'm somewhere else, does that not then mean that my current subjective experience of reality is as fragile as an inhale?

• 1:14:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sure.

• 1:14:27Steven Bartlett?

  And then.

• 1:14:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it's chemicals. So, yeah, it's a reminder that your brain functions based on electrochemical signals.

• 1:14:35Steven Bartlett?

  But does that mean?

• 1:14:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And to put some other chemicals in there to disrupt it, to re-channel it, the sky is the limit.

• 1:14:41Steven Bartlett?

  But doesn't that mean that reality itself is just a bunch of chemicals?

• 1:14:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There are philosophers who like thinking about that and debating it and arguing it. I tend to be way more practically minded in that conversation. Okay. In that, I can perform an experiment outside of your five senses. And it will get a result that everyone coming together to look at that result will agree on.

• 1:15:07Steven Bartlett?

  That's one of my senses, though, looking.

• 1:15:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sure. But if you don't have that sense, then you can't participate in that exercise. I find some way for you to then be able to identify it. But I can create a measurement of ultraviolet light. You can't see ultraviolet light. But I have a detector that fires and you can look at the detector firing. Okay. And so there it is. I've measured ultraviolet light and I didn't need your eyes, your retina or your brain to make that measurement. So when Einstein said E equals MC squared, and that became the foundation of atomic weapons that we then drop in warfare, killing tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, you can't tell me, oh, it's just our imagination, or it's just chemical thing.

• 1:15:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That is a real phenomenon based on real physics, drawn from an objective reality that we established while not doing drugs. And so that's why it took so long to develop science, to separate measurements of an objective reality from the neurochemical synapses of your brain.

• 1:16:13Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't a rule though, observation, isn't that what science is?

• 1:16:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So if I can have a device that makes a measurement and most people look at that can agree of what that thing is, if I'm a betting person, I would bet that that is a representation of objective reality.

• 1:16:31Steven Bartlett?

  So we can measure our current reality.

• 1:16:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If I bring a completely crazy person to it, they're not going to know how to. And so how do I value their interpretation of the data? And is it subjective? Are we the crazy ones and is that person the normal one? Right? So these are legitimate questions, but they're answerable using the methods and tools of science for what is repeatable in this world and what is not.

• 1:16:57Steven Bartlett?

  And this world is an experience manifested by the chemicals in my brain. So we're measuring this reality that we live in.

• 1:17:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You inhale something and there's a whole other reality. Well, you're right now inhaling oxygen and you have this reality. How many other realities can you visit?

• 1:17:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And which is the real reality? And all I would say is, I make mention of it in the book, people on DMT have these shared experiences. So let's do experiments on that to see if, can one person experience an insectoid, glean information from that psychedelic alien that matches someone else's information? That's how you would probe this. Otherwise, you say, oh, it's real and then we'd make, start a new religion. I can tell you that if there was a drug, that if you imbibed it, I mean by whatever means, if it got me closer to an objective reality, I would do it.

• 1:17:58Steven Bartlett?

  An objective reality?

• 1:17:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes. Like I said, the brain barely works. Now, is there a better objective reality? Well, that's why we have science. I have tools that measure infrared and ultraviolet and X rays and gamma rays and magnetic anomalies and electrical currents. And I can measure all these things. And you, your brain is irrelevant to those measurements.

• 1:18:24Steven Bartlett?

  I had a physicist come on and he said that we can only, we can only see that which we need to see in order to survive. And thus, if you look at a bat or another species of animal even here on the earth or a dog.

• 1:18:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, evolutionarily.

• 1:18:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Steven Bartlett?

  So theoretically, there could be spirits in this room now, but because they're inconsequential to my survival, I actually don't even need to be able to see them. I didn't need to develop the senses to be able to know that they were here.

• 1:18:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's why science has dozens of senses. We've gone beyond human physiology in the sciences. So that's why I don't have to have that conversation about my reality versus any other alternative reality and which one is real. That's why science exists. We have the microscope that gets us into the realm of the small, the telescope that gets to the realm of the large. Your senses have no access to either of those places. The Dead Sea in the Middle East was called dead because there were no macroscopic fishes there because the salt level is so high. But their microbes doing the backstroke. Okay. And salt resistant microbe. So they couldn't see those.

• 1:19:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So their reality missed something. Yes, your reality is going to miss things that are not otherwise going to put your health at risk evolutionarily. But science changed that forever.

• 1:19:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Deal with it.

• 1:19:53Steven Bartlett?

  I was gonna say, yeah, I mean, a lot of it's predicated on, you know, believing in my observable experience and

• 1:20:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't have to, because, like I said, we have tools. That's why I can look in the sky and say, wow, what is that? I don't know. I pull up binoculars? Tools? Oh, my gosh, it's a drone. And I can see it better with higher resolution and it's brighter. Oh, what is that over there? I don't know what that is on the horizon. Oh, it's a it's a bear crawling on the side of the thing. It's not some alien. You bring out the tools, supplement your your senses.

• 1:20:27Steven Bartlett?

  And these are all observational tools?

• 1:20:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Those that I just mentioned, yes. But there are others that you can test things without observing them. You can look at what effect they have on something else, for example.

• 1:20:39Steven Bartlett?

  If a couple of chemicals are responsible for this entire experience, like the things that I feel, touch, smell, hear, is it plausible then that actually

• 1:20:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's more than a couple, but it's that your sentiment is accurate.

• 1:20:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Is it then plausible that we are just a bunch of chemicals in a Petri dish somewhere? That are creating a subjective experience? And that subjective experience manifests as a universe that I can see, this iPad that I can touch, but actually, we are just a chemical reaction in a Petri dish? That some aliens are doing? Because if chemicals are my entire subjective experience

• 1:21:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's way more likely that we are just a simulation.

• 1:21:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I think we probably are a simulation. I think I've

• 1:21:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's based on what you just said, it's if we have to be in a Petri dish? With it's more likely that we're simulated by some snot-nosed kid in in its alien parents' basement.

• 1:21:29Steven Bartlett?

  That was a biological simulation I described.

• 1:21:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, it was. So like I said earlier, the laws of physics are different on different scales. You can't just put us in a Petri dish and have us behave the way chemicals and work and microorganisms would behave, like bacteria, that sort of thing, would behave in a Petri dish. Petri dish is ideal sized for bacteria, not for us in some larger Petri dish. No. We function differently with our environment than microbes do in a Petri. You can't just scale it up. As much as people would want to, that would make everything easy. We're just nested dolls.

• 1:22:08Steven Bartlett?

  Do you believe that we're in a simulation? Do you think it's plausible?

• 1:22:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't wanna believe it.

• 1:22:13Steven Bartlett?

  You don't wanna believe it?

• 1:22:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't wanna, I'm whiny about that.

• 1:22:17Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:22:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, no, I, nobody wants to be a simulation. My best argument that we're not, or rather my best way to improve the odds that we're not, is just to remind you how the simulation argument works. You have some universe and then they have computers that are very powerful. They simulate a world within the computer. And the life forms in that world believe they have free will. So there they are. It's like a video game, right? And then they are, and then they say, I'm bored. I wanna make computers. So they invent computers. And then they create a video game inside their computers. And then it's video games all the way down. Okay? Okay.

• 1:23:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So if I close my eyes and throw a dart, which universe am I most likely to hit? The one that started them all or the 999 bajillion that followed? Probably one of the ones that were manufactured. Which argues strongly that we're in a simulation. However, the only universes that could create other worlds are the ones that have the capacity to create other worlds. Okay? So each one of these in the sequence had the computing power to create a whole other world. That's why it continued the sequence. We, humans on Earth,

• 1:23:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  do not yet have the power to create an entire other universe. With people in it who have what they believe is free will. We don't have that power yet. Because of that, we are not one of the ones in the sequence. Because every one in the sequence has the power to create another universe, and they did. We don't have that power, which means we are either the very first universe in that sequence or the very last that has yet to achieve the power of simulation. So we go from, you know, a hundred bajillion to one likelihood that we are to maybe one and two. And I like those odds.

• 1:24:34Steven Bartlett?

  Does this not assume that the creators of the simulation modeled their universe as being a one-to-one copy of our own and they wanted us to have

• 1:24:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, they can make any kind of universe they want. Who cares? Not a one-to-one copy. This universe happens to have like planets and stars and people in it. The other one could just be Mario characters.

• 1:24:55Steven Bartlett?

  Probabilistically, I think I've had Elon Musk say that he thinks probabilistically this is a simulation. Which I thought was compelling. And he did reason that, you know, they've got these three potential options. Either humanity just blows themselves up before they get to this technological advancement. Either this is a simulation or either this is base reality. Those are the three plausible outcomes. And one would say, hmm, it being base reality is highly improbable. Do we blow us

• 1:25:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Why is that highly improbable?

• 1:25:20Steven Bartlett?

  The size and scale of the universe and the speed in which we've gone from being like frankly, relative speed of cavemen to being able to do large language models of vast intelligence and VR simulations. This, that's, it's like this in the, I mean, Cosmos taught me this. It's like this.

• 1:25:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, it's, it's actually not like that. It's not. Can I explain why?

• 1:25:42Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 1:25:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. So it's simply exponential growth. It's all it is. Excellent. So if you plot Earth's population, very common encounter with an exponential curve. Okay? So you have a plot and you have time. Go back, I don't care how much time. You go back and it's like almost flat line and then it goes up. This is what you're talking about. It happens like this. That is the plot of an exponential on linear graph. Okay? Here's what all exponentials have in common. If you truncated it somewhere here, let's say. So go back 20 years, 30 years, 50 years.

• 1:26:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And then replotted it? It would do this. Go back again, replot it, it would do this.

• 1:26:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everybody in an exponential thinks they're living in special times. They think that all the greatest, most important discoveries happened recently. Yes, that is true, but it's true for everybody along the exponential. When we invented the car, the automobile, no one is saying, look how backwards we are. They're saying, look how advanced we are. We now have an automobile and we have railroads that cross the, cross the lands and we have steamships that cross the ocean. Look at how advanced we are. Look how far we've come in just decades.

• 1:27:07Steven Bartlett?

  If you imagine any rate of improvement at our current trajectory, we get to a point at some, at some stage in the future where we can create simulations.

• 1:27:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. Yes. It's a natural

• 1:27:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, we get there.

• 1:27:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But we're not there now. And since we're not there now, we're not one of these middle universes.

• 1:27:23Steven Bartlett?

  But if you, I mean, whether it's 100 years or 1,000 years or 10,000 years, we eventually get there. And then if you layer that over with what you said about there being 100 billion galaxies with 100 billion stars, it's conceivable that we are not at the front of that race. And if we're not at the front of that race, that means that someone else theoretically got there at some point. And therefore, we might be their simulation.

• 1:27:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, of course. Yes.

• 1:27:47Steven Bartlett?

  And that seems way more

• 1:27:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, no, no. What I'm saying is

• 1:27:49Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, we could be their simulation, but we can't simulate anybody within our world yet.

• 1:27:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, not yet.

• 1:27:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's why we are either the last one in that list created by some other civilization that can't yet create the next civilization, or we're the first one that's authentic.

• 1:28:11Steven Bartlett?

  Or it could be, it could be a tree, though. It could be like they did one, they did, they did 500, and this person here did 300.

• 1:28:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. So I'm taking the very straight line model. Yes. It could be fully branched out.

• 1:28:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And sure. All I'm saying is we're nowhere in the middle of that. We have to be at the end because we don't, we can't make another universe yet. So that greatly reduces the total number of universes your dart can hit when you toss it against the wall. You're either the first universe or the last one. And I had it, gave it in a line, but it could be the last of any of these.

• 1:28:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it could be the last of a tree. Like, I think a family tree, you don't have kids.

• 1:28:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's fine. So how many, how many would the last be? 500, 1,000? Whatever that is, there's countless other ones that came before us, leading up to that.

• 1:28:59Steven Bartlett?

  And we could have cousin simulations that

• 1:29:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sure.

• 1:29:01Steven Bartlett?

  went on and it seemed, that seems more probable in the balance. I can't think of a singular argument that's more convincing that, okay, if, if humans eventually get to technological advancement, thus, so that they could create their own simulation, then it's conceivable that in such a vast universe, other, other living intelligent life got there first. You agree that there's intelligent life in the universe? It's quite, I think it's quite arrogant of us to think that we are the most technologically advanced in the universe.

• 1:29:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. No one should be thinking that.

• 1:29:31Steven Bartlett?

  So thus, it's a simulation, Neil?

• 1:29:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Unless we are not the simulation and we're the original universe that hasn't started the ball rolling yet.

• 1:29:39Steven Bartlett?

  And could you imagine the odds of that? What would the odds of that be?

• 1:29:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is my point. The simplest way is the look, in the line. In the straight line example, which we can spread out in just a moment, we're either the starter universe who hasn't figured out how to make a universe yet.

• 1:29:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 1:29:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or we're the last in that line, which have yet to evolve the capacity to make a universe, because it doesn't happen instantly. They have to invent computers and they have free will. And so they're doing their thing.

• 1:30:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. So however many universes are in between, it goes from that number of possible universes we could have been to a one in two chance that we're real. One in two. We're the original or we're this one. Which is simulated. That's a one in two chance. Now you have branches. Fine. I don't mind branches. Where each one creates 10 universes. Fine. You have branches. Once again, we are either the last one in a branch or the first one that started it all.

• 1:30:37Steven Bartlett?

  Here's my, here's my drawing of how it might look. So we could be that one? Or we could be that one, that one, that one, that one, that one, that one, that one, that one, that one, that one, that one? Why is, why is that not plausible? It's kind of like a family tree. Some of them have kids, some of them don't.

• 1:30:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so in that case, only one of them evolved to make another universe.

• 1:30:59Steven Bartlett?

  This one did here, but also this one did here.

• 1:31:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. That's the only one in that generation that made another universe. Correct?

• 1:31:05Steven Bartlett?

  And this up here at the top?

• 1:31:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That one made a whole, made 10 of eight of them. And only one of them made another universe. Okay, now two of them made another universe. Okay?

• 1:31:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay? That's fine. Okay, so now

• 1:31:20Steven Bartlett?

  And one of them made another universe as well.

• 1:31:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. Correct. So you keep doing that. If we're early in the game.

• 1:31:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then we could be any one of those at the edges of the line. That's correct. Okay? We could be any one of those. And we're plotting along. But if all the rest make more universes, we know we're not them. Because we don't have that ability yet. So it, and your top row example, if one of them continues to not be able to make another universe and the others do, once again, it, in that case, is one out of three chance that we are real, that we're the starter universe. Because you have two other places that have yet to make, in another drawing that you

• 1:32:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  could draw. All the rest make new universes, but two don't. In the simulation scenario, yes, you could do that. But that's not what anyone is thinking about. They're thinking that it's simulated universes all the way down. And you, you just drew a whole crop of universes that are not simulating other universes. So it's not very fertile in the simulated universe, universe.

• 1:32:36Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe this is what the multiverse is. Maybe this is what infinity is. Maybe this was what the big bang was, was a universe creating the next universe.

• 1:32:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. Well, that's what we call it, the multiverse, creating universes.

• 1:32:47Steven Bartlett?

  And maybe that's what it is. Maybe the civilization becomes so advanced in their technology that they're able to create one of those big bang moments and

• 1:32:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. I mean, that would be interesting if they just summon it up at will. Yeah. That'd be weird.

• 1:33:01Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe the point in which we, as a civilized, as an advanced civilization, can come together with, I don't know, AI and build a, a new universe is the next big bang.

• 1:33:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's no reason to say it couldn't be that. Right? But what's interesting, though, is that the laws of physics we measure on Earth apply across the universe and across time. So that's just an interesting, maybe that's just the programmers' rules for the universe they just created. So I have no way to step to the side of that argument.

• 1:33:40Steven Bartlett?

  So do I get an Nobel Prize? What happens now?

• 1:33:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So the difference is, in our big bang, we went through single-celled life, then multicellular organisms, and then intelligence, then technology. So if, if the technology, we have technology that enabled all that. And the, in a simulation, wait, back up. So in a simulation, are they starting you from the beginning of the universe? Is there a big bang in the simulation? Were they just, people just showing up fully formed as an intelligent species in the simulation? And maybe they're implanted with a memory that's not real. This is very matrix-y.

• 1:34:27Steven Bartlett?

  What is, what is the point of life? What is the point of all of this stuff? You got, you got, you get to live, I don't know, 80, 90, 100 years, whatever it is. What is the point, Neil?

• 1:34:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The point?

• 1:34:37Steven Bartlett?

  The point of all of this? Why are we here?

• 1:34:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that question asked by many people will keep religion in business for a long time. For many, the purpose in life is to serve God. Okay? And that's a little odd to me. Because if I created a universe, I would not need people to praise me. That just feels weird. I would just create it to have fun, you know? Let me work on the next universe now. Personally, I wouldn't feel that need. So it's odd that a all-powerful, all-knowing entity seeks your

• 1:35:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  submission and obedience. And it's just, I, I've never fully wrapped my head around that, that idea. But the meaning in life is really what you're asking. What is meaning? I derive meaning from life. I, I create meaning from life. When I say, when I say I derive it, I create meaning in life. I don't look for meaning. Many people look for meaning. Is it under a rock behind a tree? I'm still in search of the meaning of life. You realize you have the power to create meaning? Create meaning. We all have the power to do so. Add it to the meaning that you're looking for, but right now, you can create meaning.

• 1:36:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  One way is, this might not be the recipe for everyone. I wanna learn something today that I didn't know yesterday. I wanna learn something tomorrow that I didn't know today. Thus, growing my awareness of the objective realities of the world. That's my first. And as I grow my awareness, I have new nuanced, informed perspectives. So you can grow in wisdom. Wisdom, knowledge, wisdom and insight that wouldn't otherwise be possible if you didn't keep learning. Second, I wanna do something today that lessens the suffering of others.

• 1:36:51Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 1:36:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because if I have the power to make the world a better place for me having lived in it, I value that. I value happiness. Because people like, apparently, people like being happy. Unless you're clinically depressed. Happiness is something that I valued my whole life. It brings joy to being alive and at all. So that's how I think about it. And in, in my podcast, the humor is an important element of the podcast.

• 1:37:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's a braid of science, pop culture and humor. People return. They come back to the podcast because they were, they laughed, they smiled. They felt good at the time they learned the thing that they learned and they wanna reproduce that feeling. So we should not be surprised that we wanna do things that make us feel good. And again, why does helping another person make me feel good? It's not, I don't do it for me. I do it for the person. I, I don't help the person across the street so that I feel good about myself. I help the person about, so that the person feels good that they made it across the street.

• 1:38:19Steven Bartlett?

  Which in turn makes you feel good.

• 1:38:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, except, I, I don't wanna be needlessly semantic. There are things that I could do that make me feel good that I don't do because it doesn't spread the goodness. I can live in my own, this feels good. But when you spread it, then other people can share in your emotions. And so I don't do it so much for myself. I just do it because I think we should spread more joy in the world. Here's, here's a way to do that. Again, it's not about you, right? It's I do you a favor.

• 1:39:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you say, thanks. I really needed that. I'll repay that favor one day. And I'll say, no. Pass it forward. Do that favor for someone else, ideally a stranger. Okay? A stranger who will never remember your name. Do it for them. And you know what'll happen? That favor, and you tell them to pass it forward, that favor will work its way through society, through cultures, through civilization. Never being closed back. The moment you say, hey, I'll repay you the favor, that closes it off and make, and it's no longer available to anybody in civilization. If you don't close it, send it forward.

• 1:39:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Then there are these tributaries of favors working their way through civilization. And everyone is better off for it.

• 1:39:59Steven Bartlett?

  Neil, we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.

• 1:40:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:40:04Steven Bartlett?

  And the question left for you is

• 1:40:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do they know it's me?

• 1:40:07Steven Bartlett?

  They didn't know it was you.

• 1:40:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 1:40:09Steven Bartlett?

  What is it that you would like us to write on your gravestone if we were the authors of the message?

• 1:40:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let me back into that by saying, I don't want, I don't need anything that memorializes my life. Because it's not, as an educator, it's not about my life. It's about the life of those who I've touched. It's about their lives. It's not about my life. No statues, no plaques, nothing. I don't need that. I don't seek it. I've had photographers come up to me, say, oh, I, I'm a fashion photographer and I photograph all these famous people. Do you wanna be a part of that? No. It's not about me. I don't need you to look at a picture of me in a book. What I want you to do?

• 1:41:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Open up a book that I wrote and read what I wrote in the book. And you read that and you will learn from it. You'll be enlightened. Because as an educator, it's about you. It's not about the educator. So so I don't want memorials or anything. Nothing. But I know what I want on my tombstone.

• 1:41:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's the full quote, which I will begin with, but it's the end of the quote that fits the tombstone. It's by Horace Mann, the educator, American educator of the early 19th century. He was a university president, schools named after him, Horace Mann School, an educator. For one of his farewell addresses at a university, he said, "I beseech you to treasure up in your hearts these, my parting words. Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."

• 1:42:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's what I want on my tombstone.

• 1:42:10Steven Bartlett?

  Be ashamed to die until you have won...

• 1:42:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Some victory for humanity. And as educator, that's my goal. Humanity is better off for me having been in this world. That's my goal. Because all too many, there are too many people where humanity is worse off for them having been in this world. Well, not too many, there's a few key people in the history of the world for whom that's true. And if we can do our little bit to improve the world.

• 1:42:48Steven Bartlett?

  You've most certainly done that. You've done it for arguably hundreds of millions of people. I think, if I was really thinking then of like, what is the net impact you've had on my life from...

• 1:42:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  On your life?

• 1:42:58Steven Bartlett?

  On my life, from, you know, all of the content and information and movies and books and documentaries and so on that you've written. And I think for like, the net impact, if I crystallized it down to a word, was about curiosity. And I'd say it's like expanding my mind to what is, to wonder, to wonder more.

• 1:43:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Unfortunately, that does not exist in most schools.

• 1:43:24Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:43:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The kids are doing their class, they can't wait until the end of the period, they see the clock. They can't wait till the end of the school day, can't wait till it's Friday, can't wait till it's vacation, can't wait till school's over. Can't wait till graduation. All of these sentiments are, are... I don't want to keep learning anymore. It's a chore. I don't enjoy it, I don't like it. There's even a rock anthem celebrating that fact. By Alice Cooper, says, you know it, "School's out for the summer."

• 1:44:02Steven Bartlett?

  I think this photo and what you said about your...

• 1:44:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  "School's out forever."

• 1:44:06Steven Bartlett?

  I hated school.

• 1:44:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But it's my point, I don't blame the students. I'm blaming the system where you can't wait to get out of school, which means they're not teaching curiosity. Because if they did, staying in school would be fulfilling that. And if they did, leaving school would birth the rest of your life as a curious person where you continue to learn. That's what school should be about, and it's not.

• 1:44:32Steven Bartlett?

  And that's what you're doing for others, expanding the curiosity, the aperture, and allowing them to wander beyond the narrowness of whatever.

• 1:44:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I want people to say, gee, I miss school.

• 1:44:43Steven Bartlett?

  I absolutely don't miss school. But do you know what I do miss? Well, I don't miss it, but we have to make a distinction between school and education, or school and learning, and we kind of conflate the two and think they're the same thing.

• 1:44:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, because what, school's got a bad name, it's got a bad, uh... It's a place where you go to have curiosity fulfilled, stoked and fulfilled. If all schools were that, imagine how different the world would be.

• 1:45:08Steven Bartlett?

  We can only imagine.

• 1:45:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Imagine.

• 1:45:10Steven Bartlett?

  I am, have your book in front of me here, it's, by the way, it's beautiful, and the title is great. It's called, "Take Me to Your Leader: Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter. If you've ever wondered why there are so many UFO sightings, whether aliens might already be amongst us, Tyson offers an informed perspective that is both factual and fun. Take Me to Your Leader is a tantalizing exploration of what would be the most mind-blowing experience of your life. The book for anyone who has ever wondered, as we all do now, are we alone? Thank you so much. I'm going to link this book below. Anybody that's into the subject matter of aliens and wants to wonder and have some fun.

• 1:45:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if I can give you just my favorite example from the book, on the chapter, "Alien to Us," there's "Alien to Us" and "Alien to Them," whole chapters, right, like little things like, let's say you befriend the alien, and then you say, "Excuse me, I have to lay down horizontally and go semi-comatose for one-third of Earth's rotation." They'll look at you and say, "Whaaat? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what, you guys don't sleep? What's sleep?" I mean, it could be that, it should be ready, the things we take for granted might not be obvious to an alien. And another one, if the alien has some appendage, right? Don't just reach it, grab it, and shake it.

• 1:46:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You don't know what part of the alien that is. And maybe you don't want to find out after you just shook it. Just, and shaking hands is not even Earth-wide. In Asia, shaking hands is not as common as it is in the West. So don't take your own, one of the biggest lessons there is don't take your own assumptions and apply it to the alien. And in the "Alien to Them" chapter, it's a fast one, and then we can wrap. Just imagine they landed in Los Angeles, okay? And they're in the median of the 405, right, and they're just looking around. I'm certain they would conclude that the dominant life form on Earth was the automobile.

• 1:47:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because there they are, just doing things, and then they see like, a car hauler go by, and they say, "That one's pregnant." They would see cars inside. If there's an accident, other automobiles come up to take it away and repair it. These automobiles go up to fast food establishments, and people don't get out of their car to go in, they stay in their car. Wait in line, in a slow line, to get fast food handed to them through a window, and then they eat it in the car. So the aliens would say, okay, the life form is the car, and the squishy things inside, that must be the squishy middle of this life form.

• 1:47:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What this book tries to do is recast all of your assumptions about what an alien would think of us and about what we would think of an alien. And I try to have fun doing it along the way. So that's all, thank you for bringing it up.

• 1:48:11Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much, Neil.