Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society Kateryn Parr | Secret Lives of the Six Wives About this episode At the time, surely Kateryn Parr had her reservations about being Henry VIII's sixth wife?
Aside from being a tyrannical maniac who'd just beheaded his last wife, Catherine Howard, he was getting old, angry and his ulcerous leg was getting smelly.
However, Kateryn was smart - she was the first queen to be a published author - and she loved the glitz and glamour of her new position.
What was her life like before Henry entered the picture? How did she narrowly escape being sent to the tower for heresy? And why was her marriage after Henry so controversial?
In the sixth and final episode of our limited series, Secret Wives of the Six Wives, Kate is joined by Tudor export Nicola Tallis, to help us find out more about the woman who would thrive as a queen and go on to live to survive Henry VIII.
This episode was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
All music from Epidemic Sounds/All3 Media.
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0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:38 Speaker 01 Hi folks, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. And I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous, delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavours with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.
1:19 Speaker 02 Would you believe us if we told you there was a podcast that was haunted? Well, there is. It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. We didn't want to believe it at first, but we can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. We're talking ghosts caught on camera. Demonic possessions. Cursed mirrors. Bigfoot. Poltergeists. Exorcisms. Near-death experiences. Unsolved mysteries. Missing persons. Each week, we explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world. Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen.
1:52 Kate Lister? At your own risk.
1:56 Kate Lister? Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. I am back once again with Betwixter Sheets and you are back once again with your listening ears on. Hurrah. But before we can go any further, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. We call that the Fair Do's Warning, because once we've said it to you, if you continue listening and you happen to get offended, well, tough, that's kind of on you, because fair do's, we did tell you.
2:25 Kate Lister? Being a Tudor Queen was very difficult. I mean, you got jewels and nice things, but wow, it was strict. And if you were one of Henry VIII's wives, well, then the rules just meant doing exactly what he said, bending to every whim and desire, no matter how air-brained or deranged. But, as history tells us, that didn't always go to plan.
2:54 Kate Lister? The women in Henry VIII's life were smart.
2:57 Speaker 03 She was a woman who had her own voice and wasn't afraid to use it.
3:01 Kate Lister? Powerful.
3:02 Speaker 03 She wanted to send Henry the dead king's body as like a war trophy.
3:09 Kate Lister? And rebellious.
3:10 Speaker 03 She was a definite seductress who knew exactly how to play Henry.
3:16 Kate Lister? But they could also be naive.
3:17 Speaker 03 She is well aware that there is someone trying to get to the bottom of her previous life and she slips up.
3:24 Kate Lister? And downright unlucky.
3:26 Speaker 03 I think that there was no way that her life was ever going to be saved.
3:30 Kate Lister? Who were these women that entered the volatile world of the Tudor Court? They're known for their individual fates. Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. But we're finding out who these six women really were, and why there is so much more to them than just their husband, a fat ginger cereal killer with an oversized codpiece and a punch on for jousting. Join me in this mini-series as we explore the secret lives of the six wives.
4:12 Speaker 04 What do you look for in a man?
4:13 Speaker 05 Oh, money, of course.
4:15 Speaker 04 You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.
4:17 Speaker 05 I make perfect compliments of whatever my boss needs by just turning him up and pushing his butt.
4:30 Speaker 04 Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derek.
4:40 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. I can't quite believe it, but we are here. The finale of our limited series, the sixth and final woman, who's etched in the history books for being Henry VIII's last wife, Catherine Parr. He was only 55 when he died, you know. How many more could he have squeezed in if he clocked up another decade or two? But Catherine Parr was the final one. After all of the chaos and the tragedy of the women that came before her, there seems a very weagled calm about Catherine Parr. Dare I say it, a dignified end to a story which, thanks to the bloated tyrant she married, a man, by the way, who married so many women that three of them were called Catherine,
5:23 Kate Lister? had many indignant moments along the way, to put it mildly. Despite her having two prior marriages to Henry, Catherine Parr fit right in as the Queen of England. How did she use her power to become an influential leader and stepmother to Mary, Elizabeth and Edward? And as the last woman standing when it comes to playing the Henry games, what became of her after he died? In this final episode of Secret Lives with the Six Wives, I am joined by, of course, author and impeccable Tudor expert, Dr Nicola Tallis, to help us get to know Catherine Number Three a little bit better. Without further ado, let's do it.
6:06 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's Nicola Tallis. How are you doing?
6:13 Speaker 03 I'm absolutely brilliant, thank you, Kate. It's so nice to be back again.
6:17 Kate Lister? For our final instalment, and we've got to the end, to the final one, the one who, well, who outlived him. If it had kept going, god knows how many wives you would have actually had.
6:30 Speaker 03 Yeah, I know. I often think that myself. I wonder if Catherine thought that too.
6:35 Kate Lister? Yeah, but Catherine Parr, not to be confused with Catherine Howard, who we looked at in the last episode. So to paint the picture of where we've got up to, Catherine Howard lost her head in quite dramatic circumstances and it all came out that she hadn't been a virgin when she married Henry and she'd been, well, they said she'd been carrying on with other people. Today, we would have said that it was child abuse, but okay. And there was some, well, there was an admission that she'd been fraternising, I suppose you'd say, with Culpeper, even if it wasn't actually sex, it was meeting and flirting and trysts and sneakiness that you shouldn't be doing when you're the queen. So she loses her head and by all accounts, Henry was gutted about it.
7:20 Kate Lister? He was, he was really upset. If only there was some other way that he could not have ordered his wife's head to be cut off.
7:26 Speaker 03 I know, I know, right? I mean, he is absolutely devastated at the loss of his fifth wife and I mean, he could have perhaps been forgiven for thinking that marriage wasn't for him at this point.
7:38 Kate Lister? A lot of other people must have been. A lot of other people round him must have been thinking, look, you've had a really good go at this, bud. You've had five cracks in the whip now. Maybe this just isn't for you.
7:48 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, quite right. But again, Henry's still fixated on this idea of having another child. It's still ongoing. Yeah.
7:57 Kate Lister? Okay, so despite what other people must have been thinking, he decides, I need another wife.
8:04 Kate Lister? I'm just imagining his advisers around, I'm just like, shit, shit, not this again. Okay, so how, how does Catherine Parr even get dragged into this? Who is she? Where is she from? Was there any suggestion that she would ever have been queen?
8:19 Speaker 03 No, absolutely not. And she's quite an unusual choice of bride for Henry in lots of respects, because by the time she comes to his notice, which is in 1543, she has been widowed twice herself. So she's already got her own experiences of marriage. And she was the daughter of Thomas Parr and his wife Maud Green, who Maud Green had actually been a lady in the household of Henry's first wife, Catherine of Aragon. And in fact, Catherine Parr had probably been named for Catherine of Aragon as well. So there's this kind of strange link there too.
9:02 Speaker 03 And yeah, Catherine is widowed twice. Her second husband dies in March 1543. And it seems that within a very short space of time, Catherine is at court, she's at Henry's court here. She catches his eye and before long, he is determined to make her his wife.
9:27 Kate Lister? Does this not seem like there's some hypocrisy in this? He's just cut his last wife's head off for not being a virgin when they got married. And now he's really interested in a woman that's been married twice.
9:39 Speaker 03 Yeah, I know. It seems like a really strange thing to do. But I think that with Catherine Parr, she was more mature than his last wife, Catherine Howard. Catherine Parr is in her 30s at this point. And she's proved herself to be a good wife to her first two husbands. She hasn't had any children. However, she does play the role of stepmother to her second husband's children from his first marriage. And I think that there was something in that that quite appealed to Henry. Let's not forget, he's got three children of his. Own Mary Elizabeth and Edward, who have all been left without mothers. So
10:20 Speaker 03 I think that whole idea of having a positive female role model to look after his children as well would also quite have appealed to him. But it's clear as well that he was quite physically attracted to Catherine as well. So this precedent that Catherine set of being a wife and being a wife successfully without cheating on our husbands effectively, I think was something that quite appealed to Henry.
10:47 Kate Lister? It's weird though, isn't it? Because if he's still hell bent on getting a male heir, that he would go for a woman that was in her thirties. Today, very young, I'd have said, but by the standards of the day, if that's really what he's interested in, then you could have gone younger and also somebody that's been married but has never had children, like her fertility must be in question. It seems like an odd choice for him.
11:09 Speaker 03 Yeah, it does in that respect. I think her, her second husband, he was older than Catherine. So perhaps they may not have necessarily expected to have children together, who knows? But there's this view with Catherine Parr that Henry might have viewed her more as a nursemaid because of the fact that he's not in great health. But actually, that isn't true at all. We know that Catherine was busy doing things to try and make herself sexually attractive to Henry. So she clearly expected that to be an important part of their relationship. Like she buys these special lozenges to make her breath sweet and she buys perfume.
11:53 Speaker 03 And she tries to ensure that everything about her is enticing. So clearly she is expecting to have a physical relationship with Henry.
12:03 Kate Lister? And how old is Henry at this point? And what state is his health in?
12:07 Speaker 03 I mean, his health is, is in a terrible state.
12:10 Kate Lister? It's in the bin, isn't it?
12:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly. He is, I mean, his eyesight is failing as well, which is no reflection on Catherine, I should add. And he is, is still suffering from this ulcerated. Leg, he's huge at this point. He's put on so much weight and he can barely walk, which makes it ten times worse. So he's definitely no fine physical specimen and he's in his fifties by contrast to Catherine, who is in her thirties. So he is definitely not particularly physically attractive by now.
12:47 Kate Lister? And how much time has passed between Catherine Howard losing her head and Henry finding Catherine Parr and setting this marriage up?
12:55 Speaker 03 It's over a year, which is quite, almost quite a record.
12:58 Kate Lister? By, by Henry's standards, isn't it?
13:01 Speaker 03 It really is actually. It's, he's, he's done quite well to leave it this far. And I think it's because after Catherine Howard died, there was no really obvious candidate to fulfil this role. And it's only when Catherine Parr herself becomes available, following the death of her second husband, that perhaps Henry starts looking at her in that way. But she also by this point was in love with somebody else.
13:30 Kate Lister? Oh dear.
13:32 Speaker 03 Have to mention that.
13:33 Kate Lister? Who was she in love with?
13:35 Speaker 03 She was in love with a gentleman called Thomas Seymour, who was the brother of wife number three, Jane Seymour. So she was quite attracted to him. He was younger, more like her in age. And she seemed to have been very, very fond of him and that feeling seems to have been reciprocated in turn. And then Henry just steps in the way and makes it clear that he expects Catherine to marry him instead.
14:03 Kate Lister? I'm just wondering, how does she get away with this but Catherine Howard didn't? Because that Catherine Howard fancied Culpeper.
14:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, I know. But I think at this point, nothing had actually happened with.
14:17 Kate Lister? Oh, she was smart enough just to let it go then?
14:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, like Henry makes it clear that he quite fancies Catherine. And yeah, she's smart enough to know. She later says, oh, I did really want to marry Thomas, but God basically told me that I had to marry Henry and that I was destined for greater things. So I think she also maybe realised Henry's health isn't that great. He's, he's older. Yeah, that maybe this marriage won't last for too long.
14:47 Kate Lister? All right. So what was Catherine Parr like? Do we have records of her? Was she? Because they're all so strikingly different, all of these women. It's kind of hard to even get a handle on what Henry's type was. Was she devoutly religious? Was she fiery? Was she docile? Was she into arts and crafts? What was she like?
15:07 Speaker 03 Oh, Catherine is totally fabulous. There's so much to like and admire about her. She was someone who really, really cared about her appearance. I mentioned those things about what she did to make herself attractive, but she really, really loved clothes. She really, really loved jewels and finery. And she was also very scholarly. So she'd been very, very well educated and she had a great interest in books. She also just loved everything about the trappings of queenship.
15:43 Kate Lister? Okay.
15:43 Speaker 03 And she seemed to be interested in everything. She loved music as well. She loved poetry. She had a lot in common with Henry in that respect, in terms of their scholarly interests, I suppose. And intellectually, she was quite a good match for him, I would say.
16:01 Kate Lister? Oh, that's interesting. Okay. And what about her jewellery? Because I know that's your specialist area of research. What kind of bling was Catherine rocking?
16:08 Speaker 03 I'm so glad you asked, Kate. It's really nice to talk about it. Yeah, she loved bling, particularly diamonds. She really loved diamonds.
16:16 Kate Lister? Well done.
16:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, quite right. And she wasted no time in putting her own stamp on her jewellery collection. And she was busy ordering things that really reflected her personality, I would say. So we know that she commissioned this very special crown brooch that we can see in portraits of her that was made largely of diamonds. And that really reflected her interest in royalty and being part of the royal family. And she also ordered a brooch that contained images of herself and Henry. And she had a number of diamond rings as well and beautifully lavish.
16:56 Speaker 03 Dependence, things that she really loved to show off. And something that I also think is quite interesting and reflective of Catherine's personality is that she spared no expense in covering all of her everyday items in jewels as well. So
17:14 Kate Lister? Oh, nice.
17:15 Speaker 03 Even the bindings of her books had jewels on them. I mean, it's almost like she thought, well, I've got all this money. What am I going to do with it? Oh, yeah, I'll just add a few diamonds to my book cover. So
17:26 Kate Lister? Oh, I love that.
17:27 Speaker 03 Yeah.
17:27 Kate Lister? So she's quite extravagant in her own way then.
17:30 Speaker 03 She's so extravagant. Like in her first year of being queen, she orders a hundred and seventeen pairs of shoes.
17:36 Kate Lister? Holy hell. Wow. Well done.
17:37 Speaker 03 Yeah.
17:38 Kate Lister? Because she has this reputation as being sort of like the nursemaid queen of like of her pushing a frail Henry around and kind of being like this rather subdued companion who after looking at Henry's dating past is just gonna, well, do what most of us would do, which is just shut up. But she seems to have had quite a lot of character and quite a lot of pizzazz about her.
17:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, she definitely did. I mean, this was a woman who, yes, Henry wouldn't have been her first choice of husband, but once she is his wife and she's put into that role, she really excels at it. She's got character. She is not afraid to make her voice heard in what's very much a man's world at this time. So she has got this kind of quiet confidence about her and this real sense of of knowing who she is and wanting to show people who she is. I mean, even her toilet is covered in crimson velvet.
18:34 Kate Lister? Oh, I like her. I like her. This is, this is somebody who is going to absolutely make the most of this quite quite bizarre situation, actually, I would have said, is that she's suddenly the fucking queen. Like, how has this happened? And married to a lunatic as well. So we may as well, yeah, put velvet on the toilet seats. Do we know, do we know how they met? How or when they met? Or was it, was it just one of these, like, she was at court and he fancied her stories?
19:01 Speaker 03 Yeah, we don't know exactly how she met. There was some suggestion that perhaps Catherine had been part of the household of Henry's eldest daughter, Mary. But that is disputed. We don't know if that was the case. She was just somebody who does seem to have been at court on occasion and someone who just caught his eye.
19:21 Kate Lister? Wow. It's interesting to sort of wonder what he was looking for at that point because he was constantly in pain. He'd been heartbroken. He's been king for a long time. He's, he's not doing very well. He's fucked things up with, well, I wouldn't say fucked things up, but he's split from Rome, fucked things up depending on who, your perspective, I guess. You sort of get the sense that maybe he was just looking for a bit of peace and quiet, or maybe I've got that wrong.
19:47 Speaker 03 Well, I, I feel like he was not necessarily looking for a bit of peace and quiet. I think that he was looking for a wife who, who was mature, as Catherine was considered to be, who could provide a bit of stability for his children and be a good role model to them, which Catherine definitely was. And yeah, who could offer him a bit of companionship, but who he was also attracted to. I think like we do have to remember that he clearly was physically attracted to Catherine and they did share a bed. And Henry was still hopeful that they would have children, which obviously they don't.
20:30 Speaker 03 But I think Catherine really ticks a lot of boxes for Henry at this point in his life. And he did see her as someone who wasn't going to screw him over, who would just provide him with everything that he needed in his later years.
20:48 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Nicola and Catherine after this short break.
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22:21 Speaker 01 Hi, folks. This is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman, and I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department, so carve up turkey and spiral-cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 Brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous, delectable pies are made with no high-fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.
23:02 Kate Lister? Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.
23:32 Speaker 02 Would you believe us if we told you there was a podcast that was haunted? Well, there is. It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. We didn't want to believe it at first, but we can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. We're talking ghosts caught on camera. Demonic possessions. Cursed mirrors. Bigfoot. Poltergeist. Exorcisms. Near death experiences. Unsolved mysteries. Missing persons. Each week, we explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world. Tune in to Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. Listen at your own risk.
24:12 Kate Lister? Did she get on with his kids? That's another crucial piece to this game, it seems to be, how you treat his children.
24:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah, she got on brilliantly with all of his children. They all adored her. Mary, the eldest, there was only four years between her and Catherine, so the dynamic of that relationship is a bit different. It's more like friends. But with Edward and Elizabeth, who are still young children, so Elizabeth is just about to reach her 10th birthday at the time that Catherine marries Henry, and Edward's four years younger. So these are two children who are very much in need of a mother, and Catherine was delighted to provide that and fill that role for them. And she really did care for them, and they adored her in turn.
25:02 Kate Lister? And she was a published author as well, wasn't she?
25:04 Speaker 03 Yes, yes. The first Queen of England to publish, well, not just one book, but two books under her own name and another one anonymously. So yeah, she was incredibly clever. She was, there was a lot to admire about her. She wasn't afraid to put her thoughts on paper. And these are all religious works, the works that she, the books that she published. But yeah, she's definitely really, really intelligent and extraordinary. And these books are bestsellers. So there's clearly a demand for them. And Catherine was obviously very proud of them because she ordered copies of these books to give as presents to her
25:47 Speaker 03 family and her friends. So she was obviously somebody who was not only hugely intelligent in her own right, but wanted people, other people to see that and benefit from that as well.
25:59 Kate Lister? She was very popular, but not popular with everyone, because there were some plots against her, weren't there?
26:04 Speaker 03 Yes, yes. In fifteen forty six, so the last year of Henry's life, these plots to remove Catherine come to light. And these are really under the auspices of Stephen Gardner. Who was Henry VIII's bishop of Winchester. And he was fearful of Catherine, really, because Gardner was very much a Catholic religious conservative. And there were rumours swirling that Catherine was basically a secret Protestant. So even though Henry has removed himself and England from.
26:41 Kate Lister? Just about to say, what?
26:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, I know. So it's quite confusing, but even though Henry has removed England and himself from papal authority in Rome and established himself as head of the Church of England. He is still very much a Catholic at heart. It's only the authority of the Pope that he objects to, rather than the religious beliefs themselves. So Henry's Catholic at heart. And there are people at court like Gardner who are also Catholic. But it's feared that Catherine has got religious leanings which are far too radical than those that Henry believes in, that they're more in keeping with the Protestant movement that's been taking cold in Europe.
27:28 Speaker 03 And that's a dangerous thing to be in England at this time. And Gardner really uses this knowledge of Catherine's supposed religious beliefs to try and poison Henry's mind against her. And he's saying, well, look, your wife, she's arguing with you about theology here. These conversations that you're having about your religious views, these scholarly debates, Catherine's actually arguing. She's actually a heretic and she's dangerous. You should get rid of her. And in fact, to begin with, Henry sort of goes along with this. He believes that this is the case. Because he believes that.
28:09 Speaker 03 In some respects Catherine's become too big for her boots. They are having these conversations about theology and he is worried that Catherine has got heretical views. So he issues this warrant for her arrest. So very, very radical. And fortunately for Catherine, Gardiner supposedly drops this warrant. And it's picked up by one of Catherine's ladies who rushes to her and says, my goodness, your majesty, look what I found. And Catherine realises, being of course, very aware of the fates of and Billen and Catherine Howard before her, albeit for different reasons, but realises that her life
28:50 Speaker 03 is under threat at this point and is determined not to go the same way. And so she goes to Henry and she basically says to him, I'm really sorry, of course you're right, of course I don't have beliefs that are odds with yours. What do I know? I'm just a silly woman. Like, of course, I'm more than happy to go along with what you think and what you believe. Which is a smart move in the circumstances, really.
29:14 Kate Lister? Smart move.
29:16 Speaker 03 And she succeeds where Catherine Howard fails. She sees her husband face to face. And that's all it takes. Henry believes what Catherine tells him and he refuses to send her to the tower. And she's okay, she's let off and they become friends again.
29:34 Kate Lister? That's a fucking close call though.
29:36 Speaker 03 Very close call, yeah, very close call.
29:40 Kate Lister? Wow. What happened to the guy that was trying to get ousted?
29:43 Speaker 03 Well, Henry makes it clear that he's not too happy with him by any means because Gardiner arrives to confront Catherine with a replaced warrant by this time, having realised he's lost the first one. And Catherine is with Henry at this time and Henry flies into a rage and basically says like, this is ridiculous. You've tried to remove my wife from me. She's done nothing wrong. And Catherine is spared. Gardiner is very much in disgrace at this point. There's no other action taken against him, but it's made clear to him that he's not a His wrath in Catherine's direction any longer.
30:21 Kate Lister? That's a narrow escape there Catherine. So Henry's getting, he's getting older and older and weaker and sicker and sicker and he's not in the best of health. Was she not ruling in his absence, but was she kind of stepping into, was she involved in the sort of the, the politics and the rule of the country? Or did she just sort of keep it back to just being a queen?
30:40 Speaker 03 Well, she is given an opportunity to take part in the politics of the country. When in fifteen forty four, Henry decides to invade France. He wants one final stab in his life at military glory. And as he's done before with Catherine of Aragon. He now entrusts the government of the realm to his wife Catherine Pa.
31:04 Kate Lister? Wow.
31:05 Speaker 03 And so Catherine becomes regent, following the footsteps again Catherine of Aragon. She becomes regent of her husband's realm whilst he is away. And this is a time that Catherine seemed to really excel and she really shone in this role. And she really took her responsibilities as regent seriously. She doesn't have to face the same kinds of things as Catherine of Aragon, so there's no war with Scotland. And there's none of that, but we do see her, she attends all of Henry's council meetings. Which can't have been particularly interesting, I wouldn't think.
31:43 Kate Lister? No, no.
31:44 Speaker 03 Well done. She has all of her royal stepchildren around her as well. So that they all get the opportunity to see a woman wielding power. Which is, I think, something that's quite important in the case of girls. And she signs all of her letters Catherine the Queen Regent. So it's something that clearly matters a great deal to her and that she takes great pride in.
32:10 Kate Lister? Wow. And that sounds like she had a pretty big influence on Elizabeth and Mary, who would be queens in their own right.
32:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, definitely. I think let's not forget that at this point, there hadn't really been any precedent for female rule before. At all. And I think that this was. A really important and strong example for both Mary and Elizabeth of how a woman could assert her authority when given the opportunity and do it really, really well. So yeah, I think that both Mary and Elizabeth do learn some really important early lessons from their stepmother.
32:48 Kate Lister? So she outlives Henry and we should talk a bit about Henry's death and sort of like what happens and where where she is in all of this.
32:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, so Henry dies in January fifteen forty seven and.
33:04 Kate Lister? Was it was it a sudden death or was it sort of like, yeah, we've seen this.
33:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, it was something that had been building up really for for months. I mean, I think nobody wanted to tell Henry that he was gonna die.
33:17 Kate Lister? No.
33:18 Speaker 03 That's not something that you do until right at the end, in any case. But people had witnessed a decline in his health. They had seen it coming. And Catherine wasn't with him at the time that he died. She hadn't seen him since the previous month and she had been pretty much kept separate from him. She largely at the behest of Henry's advisers who'd been trying to set the wheels in motion for what was gonna happen next. And we know that Catherine was hoping, perhaps even expecting that she would become Regent after Henry's death. Because his son Edward is nine at this point. So it's quite clear, nine year old boy can't
34:01 Speaker 03 rule on his own. And having done so well in her earlier role as Queen Regent, I think it was only natural for Catherine to expect that she might be given a leading role. But there were other people in the realm that had different ideas and those included Henry himself. And because he ultimately believed that it was always preferable to have a man in charge rather than a woman.
34:27 Kate Lister? Okay.
34:28 Speaker 03 And he makes his will on the 30th of December 1546. And in this, he makes it clear that there isn't going to be any place for Catherine in the governance of the kingdom.
34:39 Kate Lister? Brilliant.
34:40 Speaker 03 He does leave her very generously provided for, though. He gives her lots of money and she's allowed to keep and use all of her jewels for the rest of her life. So.
34:51 Kate Lister? Not bad.
34:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, so some nice perks to it. But yeah, when Henry breeds his last, Catherine isn't there.
35:01 Speaker 03 I'll be back with Nicola and Catherine after this short break.
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36:30 Kate Lister? And so what happens to her afterwards then? She's, I mean, you know, she's kind of, she won. I know you shouldn't look at it like that, like that, but given his past dating record, like, yeah, she's, she's outlived him. She's a widow for the third time, only now she's considerably better off.
36:47 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly that. And in some respects, it seems like Catherine also thought that she'd won because it's probably only weeks after Henry's death that she remarries and
37:01 Kate Lister? Okay.
37:02 Speaker 03 She does it secretly though, because officially she's supposed to be in mourning for Henry VIII.
37:07 Kate Lister? That's risky.
37:09 Speaker 03 It's very risky, but she goes back to her former flame, Thomas Seymour, who she's always really had a soft spot for. And they begin, to begin with, it's an affair. He's snuck in and out of her house. And within a very, very short space of time, they do marry secretly. It's still so secret. In fact, no one knows exactly when this happened, but it is
37:32 Kate Lister? Right.
37:33 Speaker 03 shortly after Henry's death. And I think it's almost like at this point Catherine thought, well, I've been married three times. The last time I didn't really want to marry, but God told me that I should do my duty. Now I'm going to marry someone who I actually want to marry and I'm going to marry for love and good honour.
37:53 Kate Lister? Okay. Okay. See, I don't think I would have got married at that point. I would have just been like, no, no, I'm done now. Men haven't been particularly useful to me, but she did fancy him for a long time, didn't she?
38:05 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think there's no denying the fact that lust comes into this a lot. She really, really fancies Thomas Seymour. And I think who can, who can begrudge her that little bit of happiness on a personal note at this point?
38:21 Kate Lister? Wasn't this the same Thomas Seymour that tried on with Elizabeth though?
38:24 Speaker 03 Yes.
38:25 Kate Lister? Yeah, Scallywaxy.
38:26 Speaker 03 Not good. So Catherine does end up getting her heart broken because Elizabeth came to live with Catherine after Henry VIII's death. And then Thomas comes along too, and he begins.
38:39 Speaker 03 As we would term it today, abusing Elizabeth. And to begin with, Catherine tries to turn a blind eye to what's going on. And then bizarrely, she joins in and yeah.
38:54 Kate Lister? Oh, oh dear.
38:56 Speaker 03 We're told that she tickles Elizabeth in bed along with her husband one morning. And on another occasion, she holds Elizabeth down whilst Thomas cuts her gown. It's not great from Catherine's perspective.
39:09 Kate Lister? No.
39:09 Speaker 03 And then the real crunch point comes when on one occasion Catherine stumbles across Thomas and Elizabeth. When Elizabeth is sat on Thomas's knee and she's got her arms about his neck. And it's at that point that Catherine, who's pretty upset by this point, but realises that things can't continue. And that Elizabeth's gonna have to go. Yeah.
39:32 Kate Lister? Oh dear. Oh, that's not good, is it? How old was Elizabeth when that was happening?
39:37 Speaker 03 Elizabeth's fourteen. Elizabeth's fourteen and Catherine's thirty six. So, yeah, it's, and to make matters worse, Catherine was by now pregnant with her first child. So it's not good.
39:52 Kate Lister? And what happens to Catherine after this? I don't even know how her story ends.
39:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, so Elizabeth is banished from the household. Catherine and Thomas seem to patch up their marriage and they move, they leave London. They go to Thomas's country estate of Sudley Castle in the Cotswolds. And it's there that Catherine gives birth to her first child, a baby girl. Who's named Mary after her eldest stepdaughter. And to begin with, it looks as though Catherine will recover. But very sadly, it didn't take long for her health to deteriorate. And, yeah, and she fell into this state of delirium. And she died five days after giving birth to the baby.
40:41 Kate Lister? And did the baby survive?
40:42 Speaker 03 Probably not. The baby probably survived until she was about two years old. And from that. Point on, she disappears from the records, so it's almost certain that she died young.
40:54 Kate Lister? Oh, that's a rather sad end, isn't it? But what do you think is Catherine Parr's legacy? Like, we think of her as the one who survived, the one who kind of won, but is her legacy bigger than that, do you think?
41:06 Speaker 03 Definitely, I think so. I think that we can credit her with having had a tremendous influence on the upbringing and the shaping of one of our very first Queen regnance, Elizabeth I. Probably also Mary, but Elizabeth is the one who really does it quite successfully. And I think that a lot of this comes from Catherine and those early lessons and that care and nurture that Catherine had shown her. I think Catherine is the one who really sets the precedent for showing that a woman can wield power and do it successfully.
41:46 Kate Lister? Absolutely. Oh, I've loved talking to you about all of these queens. And Catherine Parr seems a lot more sparky and plucky than I ever thought that she was.
41:57 Speaker 03 She definitely was. She was someone who brought a lot of glitz and glamour, I think, and we should credit her for that.
42:05 Kate Lister? Yeah. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
42:09 Speaker 03 They can come along and follow me on my social media platforms, which are X, Instagram, Threads and TikTok. And they can check out my website, nicolathallist.com.
42:20 Kate Lister? You have been marvellous and I've thoroughly enjoyed this series. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us about the Six Wives of Henry VIII.
42:28 Speaker 03 Thank you for having me, Kate.
42:38 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening and a big, huge, final thank you to Nicola for joining me the whole way through this mini-series. Couldn't have done it without you. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along, whatever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected] . With the Christmas period coming up. We will be dusting off our episode on the real Charles Dickens with none other than Miriam Margulies. And we will be looking forward to a new year of more filthy and fascinating histories with you fabulous people. This podcast was edited and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets for the history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains
43:22 Kate Lister? music from Epidemic Sound.
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