Pod Insights Modern Wisdom The New Way Young Boys Are Being Shamed - William Costello About this episode William Costello is a psychology researcher and Ph. D. student specialising in evolutionary psychology.
With the recent release of “Adolescence” on Netflix, it has stirred up quite a bit of controversy. But what are the real dangers of incel-related violence, and how can we begin to confront them?
Expect to learn what Netflix’s “Adolescence” got wrong in their adaptation, if incels are a bigger danger to themselves or others, why there is not more incel violence, what The Low Mate Value Theory of Misogyny is, what the reaction to “Adolescence” has been from various factions of the internet, if fear, shame, and shock actually can change behaviour, and much more…
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00:00 Is Netflix's "Adolescence" A Bit Too Real?
11:36 Was Jamie A Good Avatar For An Incel?
22:24 Aspects The Show Got Wrong
33:01 What Contribution Does The Show Make To Male Sedation Hypothesis?
40:13 What Has Been The Reaction From The Incel Community?
46:05 Were Any Interesting Points Made About Masculinity?
56:17 Why The Incel Community Attracts Attention
59:36 Is This Turning Into A Moral Panic?
1:04:27 Defining Masculinity
1:19:13 Achieving Positive Masculinity In A Modern World
1:25:04 Why The Terms Manosphere And Incels Are Being Demeaned
1:36:16 Where To Find William
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Transcript 18,069 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Chris Williamson? Is Adolescence a bit too real?
0:03 William Costello? So Adolescence is this Netflix show that's absolutely blowing up and getting crazy amounts of attention at the moment. It's on track to become Netflix's most watched mini-series of all time, and that's just within a couple of weeks. So it's really capturing public attention. And one caller into a radio station that I heard from England this morning said that it just, it hits home too much. It's a little too real. And this kind of left me floundering a little bit because, okay, you know, creative people who are making a show, I'm not going to hold their feet to the fire. They have creative licence, they can make a show and depict whatever they want.
0:43 William Costello? But we just need to hit pause a second because if this show is prompting roundtable discussions with Parliament, with the Prime Minister, which it has, and the Parliament are going to fund this show being shown to every student in the UK throughout the next couple of months, all within a couple of weeks of it airing, by the way, then I think we're entitled to maybe scrutinise the realism or the realistic nature of the show, or how much it depicts accurately the problem it's talking about. And on that front then, you can ask the question, how realistic is this problem? So let me just be very clear, there is no epidemic of manosphere-inspired violence like depicted in the show.
1:28 William Costello? Unlike, however, the epidemic of knife violence, which is a very real phenomenon and perhaps is more tightly tied to drill music, for example. That is a very real problem. So on that front, it absolutely is not realistic of the problem it's painting. I commented that the show depicts a plausible narrative of how a tragedy like this might unfold. And I stress the word "might" there because there has been no tragedy like the show depicts.
2:00 Chris Williamson? It's a fictional boy stabbing a fictional girl in a fictional series.
2:03 William Costello? There has been no 13-year-old white kid who's getting good grades in school and not causing much trouble, suddenly. Going and stabbing a girl. When I say that-
2:12 Chris Williamson? Because of, exclusively because of incel manosphere content coming from a good family, blah, blah, blah.
2:17 William Costello? Exactly. So when I say that the show depicts something plausible, here's what I mean. So it, instead of depicting a cold-blooded psychopathic killer, and it's up for debate whether Jamie, the, the boy in the show, is meant to be depicted as a psychopath, I tend to think no, but there may be some reason to think yes. And but it doesn't depict this cold-blooded, calculated killer who's, and, and the show doesn't claim to have a straight line answer that it's definitely was the manosphere influence that made this happen. It kind of, skillfully, I think, presents a couple of potentially contributing factors. In any case, it presents a young boy, Jamie, who's depicted as being very insecure about
3:00 William Costello? and giving the impression to others that he's sexually successful. And that's kind of recognizable to a lot of sexually developing young males. That's a big concern of theirs and that's how you derogate other rival males. Young men always derogate each other in that way. He has his masculinity challenged by the girl he ends up killing, actually. I should say spoiler alert, but I think everyone in the world has seen this show by now. So yeah, the girl he ends up killing, I think it was actually bold of the, the creators of the show, the writers, to write in that she was bullying him online, calling him an incel. And I thought that was important because it shows that whether or not you buy into being an incel at age 13.
3:45 William Costello? I mean, every 13-year-old boy is probably an incel. And but whether or not you've bought into the ideology, it depicts that this being on the table as an insult kind of affects you. And his, the pressure that Jamie feels to present himself as sexually successful is probably exacerbated by consuming manosphere content, right? Incel is the insult of choice. It depicts that social media exacerbates this problem even further because he can see hundreds of classmates liking her comment. It also depicts that he kind of clumsily came upon a knife, which is fairly realistic. And maybe it wouldn't find its way into the hands of a 13 year old white, well raised kid.
4:28 William Costello? But there are a lot of knives on the ground in England at the moment. And he happened to find in his possession a knife. He didn't intend to, well, as far as my reading of the show goes, he didn't intend to go out and kill the girl. He intended to confront her about this challenge, this insult to his masculinity. And having the knife, things got way out of hand. So that's what I mean when I say it's plausible. But in terms of a depiction of the epidemic of knife violence in this country, in the UK, which is specifically what the writers of the show have spoke about in interviews where they talk about what inspired the show, they talk about two specific instances and
5:11 William Costello? then they go on to talk about the epidemic of knife violence. So on that front, it's not representative of prototypical knife violence in the UK. To bring in the racial demographics as well, it's not typical of the scale of the manosphere problem. Like I say, there's never been a killing like this. There's been one killing with Jake Davison that's loosely tied to incel ideology, very different in nature to what's depicted in adolescence. And in terms of manosphere fans, it's also not really representative because ethnic minorities are actually way overrepresented in their admiration of manosphere guys. How so? So and specifically, how much do you admire Andrew Tate?
5:54 William Costello? I think it was like 12% of rates of approval among white boys and that rose for Asian. And I should say in the UK, Asian means South Asian, not East Asian. And then for black boys, it was much, much higher. I can't remember the specific statistics, but the study is from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, who are actually quite a progressive, almost you'd say woke, organisation. So for them to actually publish those findings tells you something. So that's kind of an interesting, the way it's depicted. Now, like Say with creative license, I'm not going to hold Stephen Graham's feet to the fire. He chose Owen Cooper, who's an incredible actor and his performance speaks for itself.
6:36 William Costello? Anyone would want to cast him in the role if you had access to him. Stephen Graham obviously probably wanted to play the father himself. He's going to realistically cast someone who looks like him. But I just think we need a bit of perspective. If Parliament are calling the writers of the show in for an emergency roundtable discussion, that's going to, I mean, my reading of it is it seems like it's going to inform policy. We need to be a bit more, have a bit more perspective there. Policy should be research based. It shouldn't be based on emotive performance art, no matter how powerful that art is.
7:13 Chris Williamson? Yeah, it certainly seems like people are confusing a work of fiction for a documentary.
7:19 William Costello? Yeah. And I will give credit to Jack Thorne, one of the writers of the show. He was interviewed by Sky News after, after speaking with Prime Minister Starmer. And he said, it is important to remember this is just a fiction. And I hope this starts a dialogue and leads to further discussion with people, perhaps who've done the research and things like that. But that begs the question of how research backed was the creation of this show? And if it's not very, then why is it being used as kind of this benchmark or catalyst to start the conversation? And how useful it will be to show this, to find four hours in a curriculum in every school up and down the UK to show this? What will that lead to?
8:02 William Costello? Is it, is there evidence to suggest that this such an intervention will lead to positive outcomes? I'm not so sure. There's, there's good reason to maybe think that it wouldn't. And I just recently, before I came over here, I've seen that there's a petition has been started to, to pull, pull the pin in the project. And a couple of the reasons cited seem quite compelling to me. Some of them include that the blame and shame doesn't work. So it'll make the potential. People who would be guilty of this crime clam up and reject the intervention. It also will give ideas to people. It makes notoriety towards this type of crime. I mean, that's something I'm very concerned about.
8:42 William Costello? So with spree killing like this, like mass shootings, incel violence, notoriety is often a big factor. So if you're suddenly talking about a crime that will get you perhaps a show that is the most watched Netflix show of all time within a couple of weeks, Parliament are going to discuss this problem. It's going to be shown to every school in the UK. That gives notoriety and that's perhaps will have a backfiring effect.
9:11 Chris Williamson? Yeah, I remember with the United Health CEO shooter that, you know, I don't think it really matters whether you thought he was a appropriate flaming sword wheeling truth teller or a person that, a murderer, just a straight up murderer that wasn't doing anything right. What you can definitely guarantee is that if you create a sex symbol and make an awful lot of attention around someone, everybody that has a cause and everybody's cause to them is the most important cause because by definition, it's the most important cause. You are going to end up in a world where people just think, well, if I want to get climate change or if I want to get immigration or if I want to get gun control, if I want to get health CEO,
9:53 Chris Williamson? if I want to get hypergamy on the table, all I need to do is commit one of these acts of violence and look at how much positive attention I'm going to get or look at how much attention I'm going to get.
10:03 William Costello? Yeah, absolutely. And there is a reason why incel stories really capture our attention. So it could be actually really dangerous to not fully understand why that's happening and to continue doing this. I mean, I remember when Jake Davison, the incel killer in England, who's loosely tied to incel ideology.
10:24 William Costello? His videos were played all over Sky News. And if you're, there is evidence that these extremist killers, mass shooters, they cruise for a cause and specifically to gain notoriety. There's an institute for male supremacism. They have some guidelines.
10:41 Chris Williamson? Are they pro or anti?
10:43 William Costello? They're, it's always confusing to me that they categorize incels as a typifying male supremacism because incels themselves, they're really keen to stress to you how they call themselves subhuman, you know, they're really keen to show how they're not supremacist. But in any case, they have some guidelines on reporting on incel violence. And one point that I really, really agree with is the no notoriety protocol. It, you shouldn't give, make potential heroes or anti-heroes out of these people. And that's perhaps potentially what showing adolescence to every student in the UK perhaps does. It also brings the number of people, it moves those who have never seen the show
11:26 William Costello? or never heard of Manosphere from zero to everyone overnight when you're showing it suddenly. And, you know, I don't know how effective it's going to be.
11:36 Chris Williamson? Is Jamie a good avatar for the typical incel?
11:40 William Costello? There are some ways in which he's not, but I think they do speak to an important point about how, like I said earlier, the incel topic being on the table or the incel rhetoric being around affects every young man. So he's affected by the threat of being perceived as an incel. But according to our research, incels are disproportionately ethnic minorities. So in our recent data, 42% of incels were a person of color. That's exclusively US and UK sample. The extraordinarily high rates of autism among the incel community, roughly 30% based on our latest data. So that really wasn't touched on at all in the show.
12:22 William Costello? The mental health wasn't touched on an awful lot in the show. Little bits of his low self-esteem and how insecure he was. That maybe was spoken to a little bit, but the suicidality, like I've often said, that extremist violence of incels is often likely self-directed.
12:44 Chris Williamson? Yeah, they're a bigger risk to themselves than they are to anybody else.
12:47 William Costello? Yes, I mean, like, it's unverifiable how many have actually followed through on their suicidal ideation. But just to remind your viewers of the statistics, they're quite stark. Thirty percent of incels in our recent data said they thought about suicide or self harm every day over the last two weeks. When you, thirty three percent more said they thought about it more than half the days or several days over the last two weeks. So two thirds have had these thoughts pretty regularly. At least once in the last two weeks. Now, if you put that into context, in the general population, it's five percent of people had have had a suicidal thought that year. So it's a massive, that's a story that wasn't really spoken about in terms of realism,
13:31 William Costello? of the threat of extremism from incels that I think people need to pay attention to is as much the mental health as anything else. What else about Jamie that was right and wrong? So I thought, episode three is extremely powerful, where it depicts him and his psychiatrist having a a kind of an interview to gauge, she's trying to gauge how, if she can get into his mindset about why he did what he did. And in that episode, it's quite powerful acting, but I recognize, and a lot of people online are commenting that, wow, you can see how, what a psychopath he is, how manipulative he was. And I'm kind of thinking, well, no, I just saw a pretty normal teenager who's angry.
14:13 William Costello? He oscillates between really charming and trying to cultivate rapport and extreme anger, insecurity. I also saw, there was little hints that he perhaps treated the female figures of authority in his life a little bit differently. I thought the school, the school that was depicted showed that as well. That the male teachers were kind of angry and shouting and able to command maybe a bit more. Women were a little bit more fawning or useless. Right, and maybe that speaks to what Richard Reeves talks about, the need for really positive male role models as teachers in the school. One of the male teachers they depicted was pretty floundering, Mr. Malik is his name, he comes in late. His shirt is untucked and he's, he's, he's burning.
14:57 William Costello? And that's a real problem in UK schools. I have a background in education and I know it's really hard for schools to retain teachers more than five years. So they really depicted that the schools function more as behavioural management. That was one thing that's really accurate. And I don't know if that mirrors your experience of UK schools.
15:15 Chris Williamson? Absolutely.
15:16 William Costello? It was pretty normal.
15:17 Chris Williamson? I, I, the northeast of the UK, a place famous only for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in England. And then it lost that. So we didn't even have that title anymore. But yeah, very much so. I mean, you know, it was a zoo. It was a fucking zoo. I think of everybody that went to school in my year at Grangefield. I would guess
15:38 Chris Williamson? less than ten of them went to the sixth form college that was about a quarter of a mile away. And maybe out of the entire year group, two or three other people went to university except for me. Out of a whole, and it's a big school. There would have been hundreds of kids per year.
16:01 William Costello? Yeah.
16:01 Chris Williamson? So it's just not got that. And I mean, to be honest, looking around at that school, they even talk about, are you thinking about doing your A levels? He's like, this kid's 13 and they're talking about him doing his A levels. So I mean, yeah, the, the psychopath thing. I guess you have to play into tropes in some way. And lots of killers have been portrayed as somebody that's psychopathic. Because we need to have, there needs to be an othering of not only how was this person sort of caught up and whipped around? But there needs to be some culpability on them. And I think that's sort of some endogenous issue, like the personality of this person. He's a psychopath, but I would be very surprised if somebody that's even mildly psychopathic would wet the bed. When the door gets kicked in at night, they're not going to care.
16:45 William Costello? Yeah.
16:46 Chris Williamson? They're not going to be worried about it.
16:47 William Costello? Yeah. And the show did go to great lengths to show that in other facets of his life, he was perceived as a normal kid. He wasn't in trouble in school. He wasn't in many fights. It was.
16:56 Chris Williamson? He's great. Okay. He had two friends.
16:58 William Costello? Yes, this did seem to come kind of out of the blue. One thing that's kind of ironic is Mr. Malik, to bring it back to throw him under the bus a little bit more. He's. Depicted, he's kind of lampooned as being inept because of his over reliance on showing videos to the students.
17:14 Chris Williamson? Meanwhile, Keir Starmer says, hold my beer.
17:16 William Costello? Yeah, absolutely. So that's kind of, I don't know if the irony is lost there. But yeah, the school, the depiction of the school was pretty accurate and that it's moved towards more behavioural management. And you know, there's a rush to maybe not exclude behaviourally disruptive students. And it creates a school environment where for those years, you're trapped with the best and the worst in terms of behaviour of your peer group. That can be hell for a lot of people.
17:43 Chris Williamson? Yeah, it was a meme.
17:44 William Costello? Yeah, right.
17:45 Chris Williamson? It was for anybody that wanted to try and be sort of educationally effective.
17:49 William Costello? Yeah.
17:49 Chris Williamson? You end up in this environment that kind of does tend toward the lowest common denominator. You know, the naughtiest kid in class determines the pace at which the class moves.
18:00 William Costello? And given that, you know, we're describing that this is an accurate depiction of the school. The decision has now been suddenly made that this is now a challenge that those type of schools have to manage. Showing this type of programme to all their students. The programme itself is rated fifteen and I don't know what age bracket they're proposing to show it to in schools.
18:21 Chris Williamson? It's only going to be the top two years in the UK.
18:23 William Costello? Okay.
18:23 Chris Williamson? You know, if, if this is the case, if they're going, or they go, oh yeah, eleven year olds are allowed to see this pretty disturbing series. That's got some very adult themes in. Yeah. What about his family life? What about the background there?
18:35 William Costello? Yeah. So it tries to depict a kind of a normally well raised, well meaning parents and family life. And one thing they struggle with is they talk in the final episode, they're kind of retrospectively thinking back of what they could have done differently. And I think the show is really good at depicting the confusion and fear of modern adults about this topic and about just the new generation in general. They do depict the father as having some kind of anger issues. He, he has outbursts as well. Now, you could say that by the end of this series, he's had enough to be angry about and people are writing nonsense on his work van and all this stuff. But it does depict that he's taking it out on the women around him.
19:18 William Costello? And perhaps that's a theme the show was trying to depart with, that it does depict the parents trying to break that cycle and demonstrating some therapeutic tools that they've clearly learned.
19:29 Chris Williamson? Oh yeah, was it, we're gonna, we're gonna win the day or something.
19:31 William Costello? Not gonna let the day get away from us or something like that. Yeah. Which I presume is a clinical psychology.
19:36 Chris Williamson? Yeah, I mean, I have to say, I only watched the fourth episode last night. I got 20 minutes in, I started fast forwarding and I was like, this, this episode was totally fucking pointless. The final episode of that series, maybe, I don't know, dramatically, it's interesting. But in terms of sort of driving the narrative forward, for me, it did absolutely nothing in terms of educating me about
20:01 Chris Williamson? any of the motivations for any of the characters, really, it didn't deepen much, other than it just said, like, his course, his case hasn't yet been determined.
20:09 William Costello? Yeah, and it also, so even, and I thought a charitable interpretation was that this was skillful on the part of the writers, that they didn't paint such a clear causal arrow of what made Jamie do it. They hinted at a scattergun approach of a lot of potentially contributing factors.
20:25 Chris Williamson? Could it be the stuff online? Could it be the, the
20:28 William Costello? Yes.
20:28 Chris Williamson? feelings of inadequacy sexually, but it, what it, one of the things it wasn't was broken home, abusive father, kid falling behind.
20:35 William Costello? Yes, but in that kind of claustrophobic approach, it, it didn't really unpack the rabbit hole of manosphere inspired violence at all. I think the, the whole thing was explained to the floundering cop by his son in a very short clip. And by the way, it said a lot of misinformation, like this idea that incels are communicating with this covert emoji language. Yes, incels have a kind of a hidden lexicon of trolling language, but I'm not, I've been studying this topic for a number of years now and I'm not familiar with.
21:09 Chris Williamson? Have you ever come across the dynamite thing?
21:10 William Costello? No, I've never. And the 100 emoji, oh, I've never heard that. No, have you?
21:15 Chris Williamson? No.
21:15 William Costello? No.
21:15 Chris Williamson? Ever.
21:16 William Costello? And we're close enough to this topic.
21:17 Chris Williamson? I'm fucking on the vanguard, dude.
21:19 William Costello? We're the academic manosphere, we're both.
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22:05 Chris Williamson? Getting these lab tests done would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is only $500. And right now you can get the exact same blood panels that I get and bypass their waitlist by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernd wisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernd wisdom. Yeah, very, I thought that was very, very interesting. And look, there's two ways, there's a million ways to look at it, but there's two ways that I'm looking at it, which is one, it left lots of potential open loops. And you could say, well, how many lines of manosphere related content was there, like maybe 10 lines, 20 lines?
22:44 William Costello? Yeah, and I've heard in apparently in another 60 Minutes interview from America, that apparently the child actor Owen Cooper had to educate the writers a little bit more on some other mistakes that they had originally written in. They said that that's not really realistic. So, you know, the idea that this show is then depicted to be shown in schools and inform politicians. And it's not accurate in a lot of meaningful ways is kind of worrying.
23:12 Chris Williamson? Well, I mean, I guess there's an interesting mirroring going on, which is in the show itself, a lot of the adults seemed confused by what was happening with young people, specifically with young boys, especially with the lexicon and the emojis that they've got that are going on. And it's been reflected in how confused the real world is when this thing has landed. And it's like, you know, to lump all of these groups in together, to use these emoji thing, I would love, I mean, maybe someone will tell me, yeah, yeah, yeah. The dynamite thing is an exploding red pill. You are. Maybe the number one researcher of incels on the planet. And it's something that you've never seen. I've been swimming around the world of sort of mating research and sexual selection stuff for half a decade.
23:56 Chris Williamson? And I'm still like, I've never seen this. I didn't know that orange heart meant this. Now, the orange heart like means like hot to trot, but not. And then purple meant good, I love you, but I don't love me or whatever the fuck. All of that, I'm like, eh, that doesn't really have anything to do with the world that we're in.
24:10 William Costello? Yeah.
24:11 Chris Williamson? But most of the other stuff, I was like, I, I think this is largely, and if it's just a dramatic device, if it's like, oh, we're gonna make it up. Is this interesting sort of key to things? Then fine, but it definitely seems to sort of lay a lot of uh, stock and a lot of motivation at the feet. It's, it's the only, it's the only um exposition, the only clearly stated motivation for why it would have happened. The rest you have to infer yourself.
24:41 William Costello? Yeah.
24:41 Chris Williamson? Everything else has to be inferred.
24:42 William Costello? Yes, and you can infer that because the parents are looking back through the rear view mirror. And they very much feel guilty about not going in to see what type of content he was accessing on the internet.
24:52 Chris Williamson? It doesn't even say, like, all it does is talk about he was posting uh photos of women. Doesn't say who you were following, doesn't say, oh, you were on this Reddit forum. We see that you got Discord on your phone. These were the groups that you were a part of.
25:03 William Costello? Yeah.
25:04 Chris Williamson? None of that, but actually he doesn't give them access to his phone. So it'd be interesting what would have happened if they had gone on there and they'd have seen that. But even listen to us now.
25:10 William Costello? Yeah.
25:10 Chris Williamson? As we're discussing this now, we're analyzing this kid as if he's a real person.
25:14 William Costello? Yes.
25:15 Chris Williamson? And it's one of the, the interesting things about the drama that's kind of taken on a life of its own, that the reaction to it and the reaction to the reaction is now way bigger than the actual
25:26 William Costello? Yeah.
25:26 Chris Williamson? series itself.
25:27 William Costello? And I'm sympathetic to someone misspeaking, but to hear Prime Minister Starmer first call it a documentary.
25:35 William Costello? That's kind of troubling. So just to get back on the mistakes it makes and the representation of the manosphere, I thought that that was intentionally depicting the confusion of the adults involved. And that's a seemed to be a creative decision. And it even described that one of the female detectives says, oh, incels, that's that Andrew Tate shite. And I don't know whether that's intentionally by design to show the confusion, because there's a world of daylight between Andrew Tate, incels, they hate each other. I've seen Andrew Tate antagonize incels on Twitter, saying, come out with me for the weekend. You'll no longer be incel.
26:15 William Costello? I'll prove it to you. And they go back and forth. Incels hate the red pill guys, the guys that claim they can game the system. They hate each other. It's a there's a world of different meaningful differences.
26:26 Chris Williamson? But there's some degree of insight, because they talk about blue pill being sort of not seeing the world accurately, red pill seeing the world accurately. And it's like, okay, well, where's black? Where's the black pill? Because that's the one that actually is adhered to by incels.
26:39 William Costello? Yes.
26:40 Chris Williamson? And they fucking hate the red pill. They hate the blue pill. In fact, they probably just like pity the blue pill or kind of think of them as like.
26:46 William Costello? Normies.
26:47 Chris Williamson? Yeah, yeah, they're just muggles.
26:48 William Costello? Yeah.
26:48 Chris Williamson? But the red pill, they actually think, oh, you kind of could see what it's like, but you're choosing to not see the full truth.
26:53 William Costello? Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree. So and a cursory look at some of the research would have informed that. And.
26:59 Chris Williamson? Do you know if they had a consultant psychologist? Why the fuck were you not called up to?
27:07 William Costello? I don't know. But specifically with regard to the government now paying a lot of close attention to this topic, we actually were commissioned by the UK Government Committee for Countering Extremism to do the largest incel study in the world. And we presented this in to the Women and Equalities Committee in Parliament. That's all online for people to see. And some of those findings would have informed a more accurate depiction of the show, or certainly should be reviewed again in light of looking into this topic again. But no, we weren't consulted and I'm not going to get annoyed about that. But as far as I know, no incel researcher. Was no, no research team. I have heard, and I can't know how verified this is. I heard it from
27:52 William Costello? the Tin Men, George, so I'm throwing him under the bus.
27:54 Chris Williamson? Good.
27:55 William Costello? Now, he says in his
27:56 Chris Williamson? Deserve it.
27:56 William Costello? Initial research into the show that they had a school psychologist and a child psychologist. And that could be for the welfare of the child actors. And or it could be to inform the, the child actor portrayal or the school portrayal, which on that front, I think they did a pretty good job. But one incel researcher could have
28:15 Chris Williamson? fixed all of this.
28:16 William Costello? Fixed a lot of it.
28:17 Chris Williamson? Also would have made pretty massive changes to the script. You know, these wouldn't have been minor changes.
28:21 William Costello? Yes, and a direction like you could have built in the mental health problem, the nihilism of the black pill differently. One thing that was, you could say depicted Jamie's misogyny was what I called the low mate value theory of misogyny. The show actually kind of depicted that a little bit. It depicted Jamie seeking to make a romantic play for Katie, the girl in his class. When he describes her as feeling weak. So he says, her nudes have just been leaked by another misogynistic boy in the class who described her as flat chested. And Jamie chooses that time to opportunistically try and capitalize on this attack towards her self esteem. And that's precisely how I hypothesize the low mate value theory of misogyny to work.
29:06 William Costello? It's kind of like an analog from within relationships where low mate value men in relationships try to attack their partner's self esteem in order to lower their self perceived mate value. So they don't feel like they can leave the relationship. They say things like, who would have you except me, things like that. I hypothesized that incels misogyny or male misogyny from outside of a relationship is just that strategy, trying to lower women's self esteem. There's also the aspect of incels in particular. It could be a very, very sneaky strategy to try and encourage your rival males to stop trying. Nobody knows who these incels on the other end of the screen are.
29:45 William Costello? They're just espousing this ideology to others online, hoping that some of them buy into it and give up, take the black pill. Meanwhile, they could be out trying to capitalize on their misogyny.
29:55 Chris Williamson? That's interesting.
29:56 William Costello? So there's two tandem kind of strategies that would work very complementary to each other.
30:01 Chris Williamson? Yeah.
30:01 William Costello? But by the same token, I really do believe most incels I've interviewed or talked with, they really do seem to believe it. So I don't know, maybe there are some really.
30:12 Chris Williamson? I'm like 4D chess with this.
30:13 William Costello? Yeah, maybe there's some really dark triad incels that are doing this or dark triad men, because you needn't be an incel to do this. You could just anonymously participate in this. And it's kind of like a free rider concept of you're free riding on the effectiveness of their collective misogyny, but not getting any of the bad reputation yourself because it's anonymous.
30:31 Chris Williamson? Yeah. And also not dragging yourself down in your own sort of sense of hope.
30:35 William Costello? It only works if you create a sense of consensus in the woman that most men think like this. And if you think about the misogyny of incels, it does seem almost like functionally designed to to achieve this. It reminds women of their poor mating choices. Oh, you can't tell that Chad is going to end up beating you up, reminding them that they're going to hit the wall. Their mate value is going to expire quite sharply. Reminder, basically trying to function to help them lower their standards, which is kind of what you might expect if you're getting the cues that you're on cue to be an incel, you might activate some of this psychology.
31:11 Chris Williamson? On the 4D chess thing, there's an interesting take from Bill Burr where he says, ladies, if you could only support the WNBA, the way that you support a fat chick who's given up on her diet and is no longer a threat to you. And what he's pointing out is a really fucking fascinating insight about intersexual competition, where you could say some more less gracious areas of psychology research may say that one of the reasons that women are so in support of the body positivity movement is that it causes certain women to eat their way out of the mating competition, right? They size themselves up and out. It's like, no darling, please go on. Like, you look beautiful as you are. Meanwhile, I'm not going to adhere to the same body shape and size that you are, which means that you're at whatever level
31:53 Chris Williamson? and I'm going to be at a level which is more typically attractive. And you could see the same if you did have the 5D chess guys in there that like, yeah, women don't want you. They're all sluts. They're going to break your heart. I lost all of my stuff in a divorce. Meanwhile, they can actually go out, it's like, get yourself out of the mating pool, other men that are potentially in my competition.
32:11 William Costello? And it's important that you do that by coordinated condemnation. So you have to create the sense of consensus. Oh, it's not just me that thinks like this. Now, that might backfire in very modern environments because modern women get enough positive reinforcement probably.
32:27 Chris Williamson? They're going to be able to coordinate every man in Austin.
32:28 William Costello? Right, and 20 DMs a day from people saying how hot you look, it's probably going to backfire. But imagine in our ancestral environment, if you could create consensus that, oh, hey, every guy in the tribe thinks that you're getting too big for your boots and you're not settling down fast enough or something like that. I argue with my supervisor about this because he thinks, I don't know, there weren't many single women with too high standards in our ancestral environment. They were all married up pretty quick. But I think it could have, it could be a strategy that modern men pursue.
33:01 Chris Williamson? Let's talk about young male syndrome and the male sedation hypothesis, which you guys very kindly put into a paper recently. What commentary, what contribution do you think the show makes to that?
33:16 William Costello? It kind of doesn't really speak to it that much. So the male sedation hypothesis suggests that incel violence or sexless young men violence isn't as
33:28 William Costello? as big a threat as we might expect it to be. You should expect the rise in sexlessness to also correspond with the rise in violent crime. And it doesn't seem to be happening so clearly. And our hypothesis was that, well, young men are actually spending time
33:44 William Costello? cathartically or being pacified in online worlds, not just pornography, but online worlds themselves. And the show kind of does the opposite, that it suggests, oh, we thought they were safe in their room on their computer and. Yes, there are dangers to being online and there are problems associated with that and dangerous content you can access, but you almost certainly are safer in your room rather than out causing trouble in the streets. Now, that's not for me to say, oh, I think it's good that young men aren't getting out into the world, but it may be a case of choose your poison, that if we didn't have these kind of online outlets, online status games, that could be buffering against the real world violence.
34:28 Chris Williamson? I think so massively. I mean, this is my whole thing, that where is all of the incel violence at? Is a great question to ask, you know, and the show psychologically, I think, does kind of a poor job of creating, maybe it's more shocking, this is the thing, you don't know whether it's 7D chess from the writers or if it's not, and I guess, again, that's the beauty of art, right? It's open to interpretation, but if you come from a good family, if you have relatively good grades in school, you've got two real world friends that you hang about with outside of the house, so you're not a stay at home basement dweller, you actually have these things. There was some stuff about he tried to do sports and he struggled with that and he
35:09 Chris Williamson? didn't have like typical masculine pursuits and things, but largely, if you're from a good family and you don't have any of the sort of prototypical predictors of this kind of violence, it suggests that the online influence is a bigger deal.
35:25 William Costello? Yeah.
35:26 Chris Williamson? Look, it could happen to your boy too.
35:28 William Costello? Yes.
35:29 Chris Williamson? You don't know what he's up, you think he's just going and playing tennis on the weekend and hanging out with his friends during the week and his grades in school are good, but this is how nefarious the online content is, that it could turn even your boy into a cold blooded.
35:40 William Costello? That's my reading of it as well, and interviews I've read from Jack Thorne, he talks about how, you know, phones are the new cigarettes, and he does, and to be fair to him, he says 90% or 99% of boys who are exposed to this content would never take it as far as Jamie, but he does also, in the same breath, suggest, if you think the mating market is organized in this way, anyone takes it to its logical end. I'm like thinking, that's a huge leap to make, that the only move you have if you buy into incel ideology is to turn violent to level the playing field.
36:16 Chris Williamson? But also remember, I don't think that, do incels talk about 80/20 that much?
36:21 William Costello? They do a little bit, to be fair, and they increasingly move the goalpost.
36:24 Chris Williamson? I was gonna say, I would think it would be like ninety ten or ninety five five.
36:28 William Costello? They're more extreme. I've noticed an extreme Martin Bailey tactic among incels recently whereby they used to suggest, well, it's impossible for not very physically attractive men to attract any partners. And a lot of people would just come back to that and say, well, look around you. What about all these physically unattractive men who have partners? How does that happen? They obviously seem to pull it off. So incels have now shifted, in what I've seen, towards, well, they can't inspire genuine desire in the woman. And that's a very unfalsifiable kind of claim, because who knows if they can or if they can't.
37:09 Chris Williamson? I had this written down, the concept creep of inceldom.
37:11 William Costello? Yeah.
37:12 Chris Williamson? You know, it's the same as people from the right that were pushing back against sort of woke overreach over the last few years. It's like, well, if everything's racism, nothing's racism.
37:21 William Costello? Yes.
37:22 Chris Williamson? It's like, you know, if this minor indiscretion, if you joining a different queue or, you know, something that's kind of open to interpretation, well, this is my truth.
37:31 William Costello? Yeah.
37:31 Chris Williamson? I know that she's not truly, and given that most relationships end up breaking up, it actually does end up kind of predicting the fact, well, look, see, she never actually really liked him. And you go, I mean, you've you've made this point previously, which is incels, if the point was simply to get sex, prostitutes exist in every city on the planet.
37:49 William Costello? Yeah.
37:49 Chris Williamson? Like, you can go and pay for sex.
37:51 William Costello? Yeah.
37:51 Chris Williamson? But it's not that, it's the desire to be desired, right?
37:55 William Costello? The big difference between paying a sex worker and being sexually selected in terms of status, so that's one thing. But you're right, now, incels now have moved that even if they found themselves into a relationship, their pathology is so extreme that they would never even accept it. And that may be a future problem we're gonna have to look at is, what happens to incels once they form relationships or if they ascend? And I had a little back and forth with the administrator of the main incel forum, and I wasn't trying to antagonize him, I genuinely was interested in this. How would he know, how would he define an incel who's ascended, who's no longer an incel, who formed a relationship? How would he know if he has or has not inspired genuine desire? How can anyone know?
38:37 Chris Williamson? Was there an answer to that?
38:38 William Costello? He just said, pointed to some data that dead bedrooms suggest that this is a massively pervasive problem. And now his evidence was from a Reddit forum for dead bedrooms and which is self-report, which is sometimes selectively scrupulous about. But I just quickly sent him back evidence about dead bedrooms being not that pervasive of a problem for most people. Most people, when they're in relationships, have sex, I think, on average, at least once a week. Many have more than that. So it's not like there's a
39:08 Chris Williamson? An issue that that was a five-year-old study, like five years old in academia. Yeah, exactly.
39:13 William Costello? Yes.
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40:26 William Costello? In classic incel trolling character, they're at first just happy that the 80/20 rule is being mainstreamed. And they think it will black pill a lot of people, but I don't think that's very likely. They do see it as a demonization, making them a boogeyman. And perhaps they have a little bit of a point that it may be. Used as the catalyst to bring in pretty draconian online safety bill measures, often, you know, very excessive control measures are brought in with the guise of keeping you safe and protect the children. So I think that's kind of their take on it.
41:09 William Costello? But other than that, they've just, they've been bringing home the point that there hasn't been this epidemic of violence. They do bang the drum about my mental health findings about incels, which is also self-report. So it's strange that they believe them when it suits them. And the political views of incels, they believe that, but anything else self-report, they don't really buy into.
41:31 Chris Williamson? That's interesting. At least there's a degree of defence, I suppose. Has there been any other manosphere reaction stuff to this? I haven't seen anything. I was totally offline. When this went out, I was in the middle of a nightmare, well, not a nightmare week, like a dream week, I suppose. I went on Rogan and then went straight to SF to do the Naval episode. So I was balls deep in prep. So I only got to, I only got to finish the series last night, weeks after it had come out. And yeah, I haven't seen any other reaction from the broader men talking on the internet community.
42:01 William Costello? I think it's backfiring in a lot of ways, though. There's a lot of people, the reaction to it is, oh, it's miscasting the race and really fixating on that racial component, which I think there is a fair enough argument to make on that front. I'll raise another argument. The genuine epidemic of grooming gang violence, there's a Netflix show about that called Three Girls. Why aren't they showing that in Parliament? Why don't they show that in schools? Perhaps too heavy, but you know, that's a genuine thing that happened on a mass scale in cities all around the UK.
42:37 Chris Williamson? Documentary rather than a fiction series?
42:38 William Costello? No, it's a dramatization, but there is documentaries too. But there's a really good dramatization called Three Girls that depicts it fairly accurately. And this is a genuine issue that verified has happened. So people are pointing out that, people are pointing out that it might be used for draconian overreach in terms of internet safety. But even On the left, I've seen a lot of people, like that petition that I talked about, that's from a really far left, I would say, person, Jess Taylor,
43:08 William Costello? very feminist kind of scholar, and she's sparked that. So I think it is backfiring a lot because it's asking a lot of teachers, it's really knee jerk, and it's not research backed. And I think people are really, they see it as a bit of a PR stunt. I mean, I watched LBC this morning and Cami Badenoch was raked over the coals because she hasn't seen it yet. And that's, it's kind of just crazy that a politician is being chastised for not watching a Netflix show. That just seems like we're living in clown land.
43:42 Chris Williamson? Yeah, as if this is the most seminal piece of work that you, it's, it's just a window into exactly what's going on. Again, it's people getting confused between this being fiction and this being.
43:52 William Costello? They're treating it as a documentary.
43:53 Chris Williamson? Tell you what, I haven't heard anybody talk about, even you, yet, the guy in the DIY store in episode four. So he is the final, and I don't know how many people would have picked up on this, but he said, like, if you need to put a crowdfunder together for good quality legal support, there's lots of us out there that would support him. And that suggests to me this would be a nod to, he's kind of autism-y. He's sort of, immediately when asked, how would I get paint off the side of a van? He sort of goes into this rote memorization of exactly what you need. He's got odd eye contact. He seems to be socially very awkward. He's sort of leaning in, his body language is, is a little bit odd. And I think that he is supposed to be a nod to a much more typical incel type person.
44:39 William Costello? That's interesting. I didn't pick up on the autism bit, but that's plausible. But definitely it's a nod to the shadowy other part of the internet, the conspiracy theorist.
44:47 Chris Williamson? We know that, like, how can there be any, yeah, exactly. There were stab wounds where there's no body parts, et cetera, et cetera. And he's, they definitely selected sort of an uglier guy than is, you know, quite normal looking teenager to like a little bit less of a flattering look for whoever the actor was that played that guy.
45:05 William Costello? Yeah, that's what I think the show tried to do was throw out. A hint at a lot of themes of these problems associated with online modern generation that adults are confused about. And how intentional that confusion was and how much they meant to depict it that way. Uh, or whether they are genuinely just confused themselves in some ways. But that, yeah, that for me, he was meant to point to the shadowy conspiracy theorists, uh, maybe anti-vax type thing of, you know, anti-establishment. But one point I made to you when we were coming up the stairs, art has typically been used to subvert the establishment. Stand-up comedy, film, music has had kind of protest political themes.
45:48 William Costello? It's very strange to see right from the top, number 10, prime minister endorsed art, right to your Netflix. That just seems strange. It seems like a, a weaponized tool for, for, for the government now. And that's, that's kind of new.
46:05 Chris Williamson? Hmm. Do you think it made any interesting points about masculinity? Cause there's a episode three where he's sort of in this long conversation with a psychiatrist, criminal psychiatrist. And she's asking a lot about what does a man mean to you? What does masculinity mean to you? What are the typical traits of a man? Do you think that it's important to be sort of sexually successful? Do you think that people think you're good looking? Do you, et cetera, et cetera. What did you think about the, the commentary on the masculinity question in the modern world?
46:32 William Costello? Yeah, I think that they made totally valid points about that. And I think it's very sophisticated that they depicted that the incel insult being one that can be levied against you does put an extra pressure on young men. Like they made a very important point that the detective says, well, what 13 year old boy isn't an incel? But that's the point is that younger and younger men, maybe because of manosphere content, maybe just increasingly because of porn for a million different reasons. They're feeling that pressure to present as sexually successful earlier and earlier and to a greater degree. And that perhaps is a real fear, but, but again, that's not quantified. We don't know if they're feeling intense pressure to present as sexually successful. That's plausible to me, but uh, I'm not aware of any research on that.
47:17 William Costello? But uh, yeah, I mean, somebody would probably criticize me now for asking for citation about everything.
47:23 Chris Williamson? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is the word uh, in. Like incel, a powerful insult?
47:29 William Costello? I think so, yes. To derogate anyone's, particularly a man's, ability to attract their preferred sex is a derogation tactic. While it's not, you wouldn't say the same insult towards a woman. It would be the opposite. They derogate their promiscuity.
47:46 Chris Williamson? Sluts.
47:46 William Costello? So absolutely, your ability to attract women is an implicit cue of your status. It's absolutely important and it becomes very concerning to young men as they become a teenager. And like I've said to you lots of times before, the mating market is something you're just thrown into deep end when you become a teenager. And you get no training for it. No one guides you. And the only people perhaps offering some semblance of guidance in this arena are the red pill pickup artist guys. And they will only train you how to achieve a very shallow, superficial, short-term mating success. And something I've spoken about before that I'd be interested to get your take on is that I think there's an opportunity to make a credible role model intervention
48:31 William Costello? out of the developmental trajectory of a lot of these pickup artists. So take someone like Neil Strauss, Tucker Max, even Dan Bilzerian. They have this reliably developmental trajectory that they climb the mountaintop. They achieve all the short-term mating success. All the fast cars, the money. They get to the top and they realise, it's not what I want. It's not fulfilling. And actually what I want is a flourishing relationship.
48:56 Chris Williamson? Waiting for Tate's redemption arc.
48:57 William Costello? Well, maybe. I don't know about him, but there's opportunity there because what's very important in these interventions is the credible role model. A guy coming in with a modern take on masculinity, how he's going to show you how it's real masculinity to be a feminist. And they can see right through it. They don't buy it, these young guys. But no one could say that about someone like Neil Strauss, Dan Bilzerian, who's been there and done that. One, at the game that they're selling and say, it's actually hollow. That's a more powerful story to point to, in my view.
49:32 Chris Williamson? It's complex though. It's way more, I mean, it's great.
49:35 William Costello? There are some guys who climb that mountaintop and realise, actually it's great.
49:39 Chris Williamson? I fucking love it up here. Yeah, exactly. Come and join me. Like, join my course. Yeah, I like, I mean, you know, Neil's been on the show, Tucker's been on the show, Dan's been on the show, Andrew's been on the show, even though didn't publish it.
49:53 Chris Williamson? A lot of these guys, they've got very interesting stories. I think Tucker's got a wonderful arc to him. Neil's arc's a little bit more complex. But I wonder whether, I wonder what the story that a young boy, young man would take away from that. What my body is telling me is I want more. I want more sex. I want more attention. I want more status. I want women to like me. I'm uncertain about myself. And you're saying that I need to like transcend this thing that I've owned, this dynamic that I've only just begun to become aware of.
50:26 William Costello? Yeah.
50:26 Chris Williamson? I feel like, I mean, look, some guys mature very quickly. My ex-business partner from when I was running nightlife, met his to-be-wife in the start of second year. I remember dropping him off outside of a house when we were 19. They were together for six years, got married, dogs, dogs, kid, kid, kid. You know, and now they're 37 and still married together.
50:47 William Costello? Yeah.
50:47 Chris Williamson? So, you know, it's, some people just kind of get that sense of where they're going. They have that level of emotional, sort of self-awareness.
50:57 William Costello? I thought that was something very important that was hinted at in the show too. In the final episode, the father, Stephen Graham's character, they tell the story of how he met Jamie's mother, the wife. And Stephen Graham, I hope he won't mind me saying, he's not exactly the most physically attractive guy. I think he's pretty short like me. And not exactly Chad, will we say. But he describes being very, very funny and very popular in school. And he met his wife there and they stayed together. And that's a much simpler time, right? Compared to what Jamie's dating environment, he's graduating into from being a young man. It's way more complex. And I think a lot of adults are kind of floundering because it's so novel to them.
51:41 Chris Williamson? Hmm. Yeah. I mean, that confusion, like I say, there is some real.
51:47 Chris Williamson? Like poetic irony in the fact that the reception of the show has as much confusion about the messaging of the show as the adults in the show do and that everybody is just.
51:59 Chris Williamson? Well, one interesting point, I guess, is had it have been a mixed race family, had it have been somebody from a broken home, had it have been somebody from an obvious sort of underclass background, I think the headlines would be very different, especially if it had been, you know, a black boy that had done this to especially a white girl, it would have been uproar.
52:21 William Costello? Yeah.
52:21 Chris Williamson? This would have been playing into racist tropes. This would have been sort of completely unacceptable. And then if it was, this is one thing Rob Henderson said that would have been really interesting if they'd done it this way, if the boy had come from a single father home.
52:35 William Costello? Hmm, interesting.
52:36 Chris Williamson? That would have been super, super fascinating. Okay, so what does this mean? Oh, well, now we're getting into sort of role models, young, young men's role models within the house, that you have one that isn't absent.
52:45 William Costello? Yeah.
52:45 Chris Williamson? You actually have one that stuck about.
52:47 William Costello? Yeah.
52:47 Chris Williamson? More, maybe you would say in some ways than a father that stays in an intact home.
52:52 William Costello? Yeah, there's lots of different directions that could have gone with it. But yeah, there's a lot of more questions than answers after the show. And for me, I'm going to turn it real art critic now, but for me, there were too many unfired Chekhov's guns. Are you familiar with Chekhov's gun?
53:06 Chris Williamson? No.
53:07 William Costello? So Chekhov is this Russian author, and he says, if there's a gun in the first scene on the wall, by the end of the third act, it has to be fired. Otherwise, what's the point in having it? But for me, there were elements like the young black girl who was acting out, the friend of Katie, a lot of hints at her storyline and would it be significant? Didn't really go anywhere. Where did Jamie get the knife? Didn't really come into play that much. Was he seen going home? A lot of things just kind of unanswered. But yeah, but whether that was strategic by the writers or not, I don't know.
53:41 Chris Williamson? Hmm. Well, you know, I think looking at the motivation of this kid to kill the girl, if he removed. The couple of scenes that refer to online Manosphere content. What you end up with is a boy who stabs his bully.
54:00 William Costello? Yes, yeah, and that was bold of the show to depict the victim as the bully and specifically about.
54:06 Chris Williamson? Somehow culpable, or at least initiating it, because up until the point at which Jamie confronts her and has a knife on him, she's in the wrong.
54:14 William Costello? Right, yeah.
54:14 Chris Williamson? Right? And again, there is no amount of bullying that justifies getting stabbed.
54:18 William Costello? Yes.
54:18 Chris Williamson? A fictional girl being stabbed by a fictional boy in a fictional series.
54:21 William Costello? Right.
54:22 Chris Williamson? To reiterate.
54:23 William Costello? Justifying.
54:25 Chris Williamson? But what you've got is a girl, what seems to be a kind of popular girl, coordinating an online bullying attack for a lower status boy.
54:35 William Costello? Yes, yeah, and that's what I mean when I say it's plausible that this perceived slight about such an important feature of your masculinity in front of all your friends online and they get the ability to ratchet up that, the likes on it. So he gets the perception, wow, everyone's believing what she's saying. I have to sort this out and it just, he clumsily had a knife.
54:58 Chris Williamson? Redeem my masculinity.
54:59 William Costello? Yes, and he initially tried to make a play for her romantically when she was feeling low. But yeah, that's what I mean. This idea of young men receiving a perceived slight and having to sort it out, that actually is a plausible trigger for a lot of young male violence. Now, young male violence towards young women is the lowest category of all young male violence. It's typically young men against other young men. Very rare for an actual instance like Jamie. And certainly there's been no instance like Jamie inspired by Manosphere, nothing like that.
55:32 Chris Williamson? Hmm, yeah, well, I mean,
55:35 Chris Williamson? the young male syndrome and sort of male sedation thing of, at some point, there will be some incident which can be referred back to, whether it's in one month or 10 months or 10 years, there will be something that could be sort of related back to them.
55:50 William Costello? Yes.
55:51 Chris Williamson? And the sort of. Finger pointing Cassandra complex can come out appropriately.
55:55 William Costello? Rather than the show perhaps maybe being culpable and inspiring something like that, they'll probably say, we told you so. And let's get this straight. There is not like a hidden epidemic of incel violence that we're just not picking up on. The media are all over this stuff. I told you before coming on air, the reasons why incel content is so captivating to us, it ticks all the.
56:17 Chris Williamson? Why, why do people care so much about incels?
56:19 William Costello? Yes, this is an important point. And I just recently on the back of the show, wrote to a former professor of mine, Alberto Acherbi, who has this model of cognitive attraction rules. So types of content that are really, really attractive to humans. And incels ticks every box. And we're hoping to write a paper on that because it's important to understand why this content is so appealing and why we put it all over the news all the time. So the point that made me get on to this was the media are not missing incel violence. They're, they're on it. Anything that's even loosely connected incel violence, they're connecting it. So for example, I, I saw that Southport killing, I think, was reported on that the parents said they have fears about how Andrew Tate.
57:04 William Costello? The headline was, parents fear that Andrew Tate may have been influential in the killing. And I read the article and an important kind of sentence, it says, there is no evidence of him accessing Andrew Tate content, or this being an influential factor in him doing what he done. So the media is already clamoring.
57:23 Chris Williamson? Primed.
57:23 William Costello? For incel violence. So back to the attraction rules. So the specific rules for attractive content, it has to be about sex. It has to cue the idea of a threat. It has to be minimally counterintuitive. So for incels, the idea that this group of men on the internet forming an identity around such a peculiar aspect. It has to activate the tribal other psychology, be very negative. All these rules, incel violence, it also piggybacks on our evolved protective instinct about women. It's often framed as the potential violence and harm against women. Steve Stuart Williams has a really cool paper on the harm hypothesis.
58:06 William Costello? And he talks about all the women are wonderful effect findings that we have that both sexes seem to just prefer women, have pro women biases in a whole host of different ways. Sentencing, just general preferences. Really encourage people to read that paper. But this. That's an example of it. The incel, the attention grabbing nature of incel narratives piggybacks on that as well.
58:29 Chris Williamson? And that's why this story's made such a splash.
58:32 William Costello? It takes all the boxes. It's attractive to us.
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59:16 Chris Williamson? do not like it, they will give you your money back. Right now, you can get $350 off the brand new Pod4 Ultra by going to the link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com/moderndwism using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's e-i-g-h-t-sleep.com/moderndwism and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Is this turning into a moral panic?
59:38 William Costello? I think so to some degree. The extent to which I'm quite happy that the show is being used to spark a dialogue and all that, but the extent to which it's being taken seriously and being used as a catalyst for what seemingly is policy change, that's pretty troubling. And the extent to which it seems like it's not research-backed and how the government seem to be latching on to this creative piece of performance art rather than the research, clamoring to charities who, as far as I'm aware, haven't done research in this area either. It just all seems a little bit much. And just the machine that has kicked into gear in terms of promoting it so fast is very...
1:00:22 William Costello? They're disconcerting.
1:00:24 Chris Williamson? Yeah.
1:00:25 William Costello? Yeah.
1:00:25 Chris Williamson? It's a surprise. Certainly, I think, um, I don't know. I mean, the, the way that it shot, the one-shot thing is, is really fascinating. Uh, and because of that, you don't get as much content per minute as you would if it was quick cut, because you have to track where the camera's going.
1:00:43 William Costello? Yes.
1:00:43 Chris Williamson? And that means that there's way more Chekhov's guns lying around. There's unclosed loops all over the storyline. Uh, but I, similar to you, I'm like, okay, so what are the policies? If the policies were something similar to what Australia's got, so a social media ban for under 16s, I don't think that's a particularly bad idea. I think I'd probably be in support of that. Uh.
1:01:05 William Costello? Or at least fund more research into it. There's no real consensus. I mean, Jonathan Hyde, I know you've had him on, has made a massive splash with the, the social media kind of findings, but they're not uncontroversial within academia.
1:01:18 Chris Williamson? He gets pushed back a lot.
1:01:19 William Costello? A lot, right? So it's not.
1:01:20 Chris Williamson? What's the current, what's the current state of that? Do you know how, how much you know about it?
1:01:23 William Costello? I'm not as familiar. I know Christopher Ferguson had some really interesting meta-analyses, finding small or null effects. Um, theoretically, very plausible idea, all these reasons why social media would be harmful. Um, the empirical data is less clear, but, um, but yeah, it's worth looking into more and don't make knee-jerk policy decisions on it until you have a bit more consensus in the science rather than, I'd never say settled science, but you can have consensus.
1:01:53 Chris Williamson? What would be some of the worst policy proposals that you could think of?
1:01:58 William Costello? Um, I, I don't know. I just think, uh, I'm pretty libertarian in my sensibilities that this, I'm not keen for this idea of bans, banning phones. And I don't know, maybe bans of the phones while they're in school could be okay, but I think the, the horse has kind of bolted on that.
1:02:16 Chris Williamson? I don't know. I'm fucked, dude. There's a. I remember I brought this up maybe a year ago. I think I told Rogan about this where it was like, uh, they've had to ban vapes in schools as if, as if that wasn't something that kind of should have already been banned.
1:02:30 William Costello? Yes.
1:02:31 Chris Williamson? Um, but I mean, you and me both went to school when I think I got my first Nokia bullshit at fourteen or fifteen. I don't, I, there's no way I would have even taken it to school.
1:02:43 William Costello? Yeah.
1:02:44 Chris Williamson? Like I wasn't texting anybody off of it. I wasn't like using it to call people.
1:02:48 William Costello? Yes.
1:02:48 Chris Williamson? So.
1:02:49 William Costello? Yeah, I think I just guess with the interventions, the danger is it, uh, brings a lot of attention to it that might not have already been there. Like we look at those figures of how popular is Andrew Tate among young people? Fairly low. Um, so you potentially have made it really cool to be popular, to be into this stuff.
1:03:09 Chris Williamson? And that's a, that's a question. I would have guessed, has anybody looked at why Andrew Tate isn't more popular? Among young boys? And, uh, I, that this isn't me saying, I can't believe it. Uh, but I don't know. I get the sense, what was it? Like twelve, thirteen percent of white, white boys. Maybe they don't resonate with the messaging so much. Maybe they're way more mature than I give those sort of young kids credit for. Uh, maybe they're sufficiently immature.
1:03:41 William Costello? Yeah.
1:03:41 Chris Williamson? But that messaging doesn't yet land that like Bugattis and sparkling water and the bitches and stuff like isn't really hitting home.
1:03:48 William Costello? Yeah.
1:03:48 Chris Williamson? So that's kind of interesting, but I, uh.
1:03:51 William Costello? Yeah, I guess I'd just be reluctant to come down too hard and condemn any type of intervention. But I would condemn the knee jerk, non-research backed interventions, that any interventions that are even trialed should be informed by research and rolled out fairly slowly. Don't, don't have every school in the UK now has to follow this intervention path. That's almost unheard of.
1:04:15 Chris Williamson? Yeah. I mean, I, I, the, the coordination, thankfully, I think we're protected, at least in the UK in that the government is so useless that they wouldn't be able to get this together. So the rollout would just straight up wouldn't happen. I mean, there was a healthy masculinity was this thing that me and George from the Tin Men were talking about, where they'd. Schools had realised, or at least some of the people that were talking about this, had realised that using the word toxic masculinity had kind of become a meme of itself.
1:04:44 William Costello? Yes.
1:04:44 Chris Williamson? Kind of like referring to something as feminism, when it covers a whole range of sins. Uh, or toxic feminism or whatever. Toxic masculinity was used. So they changed, uh, being against toxic masculinity to being for healthy masculinity.
1:05:00 William Costello? Being pro something is probably more galvanising than against, maybe.
1:05:03 Chris Williamson? The problem, the problem is it's the exact same set of policies.
1:05:06 William Costello? Okay.
1:05:07 Chris Williamson? And like being pro healthy masculinity was just being anti what they called toxic masculinity.
1:05:12 William Costello? Yes.
1:05:12 Chris Williamson? So, uh, I'll be very interested. I don't even think that the why are young boys struggling and where are all of the good male role models at conversation has got off the ground yet.
1:05:24 William Costello? Yeah.
1:05:24 Chris Williamson? Uh, you know, I was listening to an interview with the director Thorn. Uh, or is he one of the writers?
1:05:31 William Costello? The writers, yeah.
1:05:32 Chris Williamson? Writer.
1:05:32 William Costello? Yeah, Thorn.
1:05:33 Chris Williamson? And, uh, it was, you know, one of those classic BBC channel, like Radio Five type interview shows went on for about half an hour. And one of the ladies that was on the, on the panel said, you know, there's a lot of women that feel quite upset about this, about this conversation around how men, men are struggling. Because they're thinking, and they had to bleep it. It was the only swear word that was said in the entire interview, which is about 30 minutes long. Fucking hell, you know, we've only just had a bit of attention paid to us. How long ago was me too? And I'm like, 2012, 2014?
1:06:05 William Costello? Yeah.
1:06:06 Chris Williamson? And the world moves pretty fucking quick.
1:06:07 William Costello? Yeah.
1:06:07 Chris Williamson? So it was almost the entire.
1:06:09 William Costello? Not zero or some either.
1:06:11 Chris Williamson? Yeah. Oh, the attention that's being paid to boys that are falling behind somehow takes away from girls that are out stripping them. So that was, uh, that just really gave me another.
1:06:19 William Costello? Yeah.
1:06:20 Chris Williamson? I don't know. Every time that I think ground has been broken and that sort of progress has been made and that maybe we're getting a really nicely balanced sense of what, how the world sees the struggles of everybody, right? But specifically with my interests, those of boys and men.
1:06:37 William Costello? Yeah.
1:06:38 Chris Williamson? And, uh, every time I'm like, I mean, it's just, it's self evident.
1:06:41 William Costello? Yeah.
1:06:41 Chris Williamson? Now, right? Like you even look at, I would bet if you look at sixth form colleges. Enrollments in the UK, don't even go to universities. Look at sixth form colleges, you're going to start to see that sex ratio skewed. I would imagine it's going to be fifty five, forty five, maybe sixty, forty, something like that. By the end of this decade, it's going to be two thirds to one third, uh, women to men on every pretty much campus.
1:07:01 William Costello? I, I think you raise an important point. I do believe in the positive male role model thing, that getting that conversation off the ground could be effective. And there are good ones out there. I'd count you among the good male role models out there. You encourage people to quit alcohol for a thousand days. You're getting people's sperm count checked. You're doing force for good, right?
1:07:20 Chris Williamson? Have you had yours done?
1:07:21 William Costello? Not yet, I'm on, I'm on the case. Girlfriend is harassing me to do.
1:07:25 Chris Williamson? Chirping away.
1:07:26 William Costello? Yeah, that's a positive role model, right? But I do think these interventions, they need to be real. So I'll give an example. I just watched a debate about this topic in an Irish debate channel on primetime RTE. And there was two very polarized depictions of masculinity. There was one guy who was very, very traditional masculinity, who described masculinity to him as being protector and protect the women in his life and very, very kind of old school, but not, not kind of crazy stuff. And then you had the very modern guy in a man bun who's a teacher. And he literally said, and it was kind of a comedic incident.
1:08:06 William Costello? He said, I hope that masculinity doesn't mean that I'm expected to take care of the women in my life and protect them. And it scans to the audience, very pretty girl, just goes. It was like, you couldn't write comedy like that. But that kind of shows there has to be somewhere in between, but they have to be credible. They have to be seen as credible to young people. I don't think the guy with the man bun, speaking about this softer, gentler masculinity, is gonna inspire a guy who's already down the rabbit hole of Andrew Tate. I did, I was encouraged to hear Scott Galloway, who I think speaks a lot of sense on this topic. He was on with Stephen Bartlett in The Diary of the CEO. And he speaks about that idea that I talk about, uh, the dating market, you're untrained for it and you get no coaching.
1:08:52 William Costello? And he speaks about the need for credible male role models. And that's something. Like sexual education in schools. As far as I know, it doesn't include how to actually become attractive to your preferred sex.
1:09:03 Chris Williamson? Yeah, I can tell you what the urethra is, but I have no idea what how mating dynamics were.
1:09:07 William Costello? Right. So maybe there's pretty benign how to build a dating app that's appealing to the other sex type of workshop.
1:09:14 Chris Williamson? How to disagree with somebody in a partnership.
1:09:17 William Costello? Yeah, how to build a flourishing relationship.
1:09:18 Chris Williamson? I mean, I think, you know, so much of the modern, uh, whether it's Cosmopolitan or Elle magazine or whatever, that are talking about women's sex positions and, you know, whether it's the sort of new flurry that we're seeing of attachment and childhood issues that are coming up and how to heal these things and anxious attachment and, you know, a lot of that, I think, is providing adults with the education they were never given as children.
1:09:44 William Costello? Yes, yeah, very important. And I, I thought it was bold of Galloway to make this point. He said that it, within his own personal experience, learning and someone telling him that actually developing yourself as a man, achieving more status, getting an education, succeeding in work, that that actually can help you be more attractive to women. That's a very empowering message. There's nothing more motivating to young men than doing this will help you be more attractive to women. It will be in school every day.
1:10:14 Chris Williamson? I was gonna say, if you're looking to try and fix the neat problem of boys dropping out of school, remind them that it doesn't even need to be for their education. It doesn't even need to be for their earnings.
1:10:24 William Costello? Yeah.
1:10:24 Chris Williamson? But it, it can be for their future partner and their sort of eligibility to the women.
1:10:29 William Costello? Absolutely, yeah. But the problem is when you attach the goal of becoming attractive to women to any sort of male self-development, it gives this impression that it's misogynistic. I've spoke to you about Barack Obama's autobiography, where he, he said he was reading different types of literature to attract different types of women. And that's kind of intuitive to young men is get the goal, get the girl, you kind of develop yourself, you succeed at a contest and you get the prize. Maybe people think, think that framing is very misogynistic. I don't know. I think if you don't use that type of motivation to young men, you're gonna lose them to the manosphere.
1:11:06 Chris Williamson? Yeah, I.
1:11:10 Chris Williamson? There's something odd, I guess, that what women are supposed to be looking for is an honest signal of who you really are. So when I first started working on my diction for the show, I worked with a speech coach. And I remember thinking, I was like, kind of surprised at the reaction of some of my friends when I started doing it. I'm like, hey, I'm working with this speech coach, go a TEDx talk coming up later this year, and I'm gonna start doing this thing. Like, why? You speak fantastic. I'm like, well, I, yeah, I think I can speak sort of more accurately. There's certain conventions when it comes to communication that I think I'm gonna be able to improve on. So, you know, just make sure that you don't lose your character. And I was like, huh. It took ages. It took like three or four years for me to actually realize what they meant.
1:11:52 Chris Williamson? What they mean is there is a sense of self very closely tied to the way that you speak, to the presentation of your thoughts. And for some reason, getting something like a speech coach doesn't feel disingenuous, but it feels like you're changing something that's very sort of innately connected to who you really are.
1:12:14 William Costello? Okay.
1:12:15 Chris Williamson? But for instance, if you were to say, I'm a saxophone player, and I take lessons to become better at saxophone, and someone stepped in and said, but what about your true, real saxophone ability? Don't be worried about, you know, what if they get rid of that? And you go, well, there are objectively sort of better and worse ways to do this. Nobody looks at their saxophone playing ability or their football kicking ability as sort of a sense of self. So they're able to improve on it in this kind of a way. And I think that there's an equivalent when it comes to the way that men attract women.
1:12:45 William Costello? I think that, yeah.
1:12:46 Chris Williamson? What you're supposed to be doing is having a natural outgrowth, which is a reliable signal of your real humor, your real charisma, your real conscientiousness. And if you game this system by becoming better at these things through a conscious process, that actually makes your signal less reliable.
1:13:05 William Costello? Yeah, so you and I spoke about this white pill vision of a dystopian future where young men use AI to train themselves to be better. But I wonder whether that's another downstream unintended consequence.
1:13:19 William Costello? That the very fact of having to practice will be seen as lowering your status.
1:13:23 Chris Williamson? And you'll just have to shut up about it, wouldn't you?
1:13:25 William Costello? Well, that's it. Practice in the dark. Or something I spoke with Elliot about on his show was that it will come across as a bit more inauthentic. It's kind of like when people use the tricks of saying your name too much or, you know, it does come across as that inauthentic. That's an interesting kind of perspective. But yeah, those are the kind of brave new worlds we're going to find ourselves in. But, but yeah, it's interesting that I wonder whether women or people in particular are aware that sexual selection is that filtering effect. And they don't want too much artificial training on it. So you can get a low mate value male. They almost have an ick about him learning how to improve his attractiveness acumen.
1:14:08 Chris Williamson? Yeah, well, it's so strange. I just want to sort of sit on this a little longer and try and work out what are the areas in which this does and doesn't matter. Because is it the same for a puny guy to go to the gym? Cause that was me when I went to university. I was like 65 kilo. I remember when I was 20 years old and I was living in Edinburgh. I spent about six months in Scotland running, doing my placement year with my business partner. And I remember the day that I hit 70 kilos. I was like, I am fucking huge. Remembering that now I'm close to sort of 86. So I've gained since then, probably a kilo a year, pretty much linearly. And I remember thinking that's, but then if you look at it, you go, okay, well, what about your true 65 kilo self?
1:14:54 Chris Williamson? You know, going to the gym in many ways is sort of gaming that. You can even start to adjust facial structure, the thickness of your neck. Has a really big impact, I think, on how attractive a lot of men look. That's sort of much more. Yeah. What about when your beard comes in? What if you dye your beard? Well, girls can dye their hair. What about girls that wear makeup? Makeup is sort of, but there's certain, no one would look at a girl that wears makeup and say, that's an unfair signal. It's just most societally accepted. But then we also see those videos of. Surprisingly normal looking girls that turn into supermodels.
1:15:25 William Costello? Right.
1:15:26 Chris Williamson? The transformation and they're painted on with all of this sort of stuff.
1:15:29 William Costello? Really good point. I saw on Twitter this morning, actually, an account, I don't know his real name, actually, but Nuance Enjoyer. Often posts some really interesting stuff. And he spoke about how looks maxing actually might be more realistic for a lot of unattractive young men than fundamentally changing your personality. Like, a lot of people kind of think, oh, it's not all about looks and cells. You can just cultivate a real winning personality. That's not that easy at the best of times. It's a lot easier when you're perceived as attractive anyway.
1:15:58 Chris Williamson? Oh, so you lead with the way that you look.
1:16:00 William Costello? Lead with the way they look. And you can actually probably, like the gym, for example, unfortunately, your height isn't one you can change much. But yeah, you can fundamentally change your look. You can hire a stylist to kit you out in the right gear. The gym can transform you. So it actually is plausible that you could change, improve your mate value by looks, looks maxing more than changing your personality. There's not an awful lot of personality change interventions that reliably work. Neuroticism is one you can slightly change, but the rest.
1:16:28 Chris Williamson? If you're talking about, if you're talking about status as well, I would say that it's not easy to acquire, but it's not impossible either.
1:16:35 William Costello? Yes.
1:16:35 Chris Williamson? And really, one of the main things there is just consistency. That if you keep hammering away on anything for long enough, you'll probably accrue some degree of it. And if we're, if we're going to say that status is a non-insignificant predictor of how successful a man's going to be in the mating market. What you end up with is, well, for women, it's just like youth and fertility cues, right? Like, it's sort of the typical beauty stuff, which is much more fucking ruthless.
1:17:03 William Costello? Yeah.
1:17:03 Chris Williamson? Like, yeah, sure, you can use enhancement and cosmetic surgery and stuff like that to kind of stave off.
1:17:08 William Costello? Yes.
1:17:08 Chris Williamson? This, this entropy. But for a guy, I would say that if you were a low value male, you are in a better position to increase your likelihood of becoming sort of higher value than if you're a woman. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's. Yes, because frankly, I'm dependent on it. For the last three years, I've started my morning every single day with Element. It's a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need, nothing that you don't. It's got a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium with no sugar, no colouring, no artificial ingredients or any other junk. And it plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimising brain health, regulating appetite and curbing cravings.
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1:18:28 William Costello? Well, this explains the young male syndrome is that when you're at an evolutionary zero, when you're in cell and you have no mating prospects, you can make a big play, win big or go bust. That's what it is. It's the young male syndrome is I'll go to war, I'll go do, I'll go do whatever, take a massive risk for a win big and change my trajectory. But yeah, you're right. But it's interesting that the mating market is there's a certain type of person that wants to pretend it's completely opaque. And even when I use language like the mating market, people say, oh, it's not a market. It doesn't, doesn't, that's icky to do that. You are selected in it, you compete in it, you're chosen along.
1:19:08 Chris Williamson? Rank order.
1:19:09 William Costello? You have value in it, it's completely behaved.
1:19:12 Chris Williamson? Like, like trades. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, your point about masculinity and sort of where we're at with that is a really good one. And this is something that I had this debate, it never got shown. I know where the, I got flown all the way to Qatar. I think I was.
1:19:26 William Costello? I remember, yeah, yeah.
1:19:27 Chris Williamson? Yeah, we helped, we did a bit of prep for it. I did this big debate in Qatar, I flew from LA to Qatar, which is 16 and a half hours and was put up for a bunch of days and I did this debate and it's really interesting and all this stuff happened. Never got shown, or at least hasn't been shown yet. And in it, the, my interlocutor mentioned that he felt like masculinity was in too tight of a box. And if you have too tight of a box, it meant that somebody like him, who was into performing arts and dance when he was a young, gay.
1:19:55 Chris Williamson? Lebanese man, which I was like, I just wanna kind of recognize that's probably not an easy circle to square somehow, that it didn't allow him to conform to any versions of masculinity and his goal was to blow the box open. And as with the racism question, as with the misogyny question, if everything is masculinity, then nothing is masculinity.
1:20:14 William Costello? Really good point.
1:20:14 Chris Williamson? And what you're saying to young men, if you say, well, you can define masculinity for yourself.
1:20:19 William Costello? Yeah.
1:20:19 Chris Williamson? That is the exact same as you get no guidance on how to be a person.
1:20:23 William Costello? Yeah.
1:20:24 Chris Williamson? Because defining from first principles, discarding the wisdom of fucking thousands of years.
1:20:34 William Costello? Yes.
1:20:34 Chris Williamson? And going, yeah, work this one out for yourself, dude. It's like, hey, I don't have to do that when it comes to tying my shoes. I didn't have to come up with my own knot to tie my shoes with.
1:20:44 William Costello? I'm trying to give a charitable interpretation of how you would achieve what he's going for with still providing some kind of guardrails and guidance for young men. So maybe something like positive masculinity is locus of control or agency. So that gives space for whatever your vision of success is, masculinity is your ability to cultivate enough agency to achieve that. That includes everyone, you know.
1:21:10 Chris Williamson? That's true, but that's only one very small portion of a much bigger map that you want to get in there.
1:21:15 William Costello? Yeah.
1:21:15 Chris Williamson? You know, what about masculinity, what about competition, what about, you know, the need for aggression, the need for protection, you know.
1:21:21 William Costello? I had a comment actually on my Instagram, this is this mother who watched my episode with George, the Tin Men with her daughter and tried to suggest that you need to train men to not be competitive with each other. And I was thinking, well, first of all, women select on status a lot, so there's no point lying to them about that. Humans form status hierarchies. It's an absolute crime to convince someone that they don't. Imagine what a hamstring you give your son if you tell him, you don't need to compete in any way with others in society.
1:21:59 William Costello? I think you're really setting them up for a loss.
1:22:01 Chris Williamson? Something tells me that the woman who commented on your Instagram does not have a son.
1:22:05 William Costello? Right. She may have a different intuition if she had a son.
1:22:07 Chris Williamson? Because if you had a son, you go, well, I can do the whole luxury beliefs thing. It rules for thee, but not for me and my progeny. But I, what you can do, you can like permanently fucking tie your son's hand behind his back and say, yeah, you don't need to compete. You don't need to be bothered about that.
1:22:23 William Costello? But yeah, it just, the fundamental point is that if there's any positive masculinity to be pushed, we have to go post woke on this. The days of describing Jimbo culture as being far right, right wing, that has to just die. We have to go for whatever the opposite of that is. That's just never gonna catch on.
1:22:43 Chris Williamson? Yeah. Well, it's, you know, we've had a bunch of artistic interpretations of this. Was it, uh, Don't Worry Darling?
1:22:50 William Costello? Oh, yeah, yeah.
1:22:51 Chris Williamson? Had a character that was based on this incel god, incel king or something.
1:22:55 William Costello? Based on Jordan Peterson.
1:22:56 Chris Williamson? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Red Skull as well, you remember?
1:23:02 William Costello? Yeah.
1:23:02 Chris Williamson? Yeah. So we've had a few of these and I do kind of get the sense that Tate is perhaps a slightly orthogonal successor to that position. But you have a, a group that is traditionally in a position of preference and authority and some degrees of privilege. But you know, that Christine Ember article from about 18 months ago just fucking hits the nail on the head with this. So she says, modern men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy they no longer feel a part of.
1:23:34 William Costello? Nails it, yeah.
1:23:34 Chris Williamson? And you think, well, what, who is it? If you're going to use the Andrew Tates of the world to say, look at how they have all of this money and all of this power and all of this influence.
1:23:45 William Costello? Fraternity with their brothers and kin.
1:23:47 Chris Williamson? And you think, well, yeah, but what about the 14 million men in America who are like out of Nicholas Eberstadt's sort of silent generation of workless men? Of 50% of which is spending almost every day on some form of recreational or prescription drug. You know, these guys, and then. The thing that George talks about, you know, we've got suicide stats, the number of men, the number of more men that killed themselves from nineteen ninety nine until about twenty twenty was half a million, right? More than women, right? So we would have had the same number of men that died in World War Two here had that have not happened.
1:24:26 Chris Williamson? But even when you look at the suicide statistics, one of the things that's missing is deaths of despair overdose that are like, was this a, you know, did he just take a bit much on purpose or not? And a lot of the time that isn't, that's just an accidental death. It's a drug overdose as opposed to a, you know, like they couldn't have death by cop, death by drug.
1:24:45 William Costello? But yeah, checking out of society for all intents and purposes and dying at the end of the way. Yeah, that's really, it's really sad and harrowing figures. But yeah, I hate when people hear those and make it the zero sum response that you have to say, well, what about women? And they're only getting their attention taken away from them. We have to stop that zero sum thinking for sure.
1:25:04 Chris Williamson? Jake Paul and Logan Paul hit the limits of the manosphere.
1:25:08 William Costello? Again.
1:25:08 Chris Williamson? Do they?
1:25:09 William Costello? This is demeaning the term manosphere. The term manosphere and the term incel are being demeaned and bastardized left, right and center. And it becomes no longer useful. If Jake Paul, who incels and red pill pickup artist guys lampoon him for being too much of a cocked wife guy, right? Is it Jake or Logan?
1:25:29 Chris Williamson? Both, both, well, one's engaged, one's married.
1:25:32 William Costello? Right. They are lampooned by the certain corners of the manosphere. So it speaks to this total lack of familiarity with the nuances of the manosphere. But yeah, just quick to put it on a headline.
1:25:44 Chris Williamson? Well, it seems like a term now that has sort of firmly got its, do you know where it came from? Do you know where the original origin of it was?
1:25:51 William Costello? I don't, but it's a, it's a pretty nebulous term now. It catches all, like to include in it, incels, pickup artists, so.
1:26:00 Chris Williamson? Andrew Tate, men's right activists.
1:26:02 William Costello? They're just so different in meaningful ways that it needs to be discarded. I think I heard Richard Reid saying that the term needs to be discarded and I'd probably agree with him.
1:26:11 Chris Williamson? Dude, we can't get rid of toxic masculinity. You're not getting rid of the manosphere. It literally just became popular.
1:26:15 William Costello? Right, yeah.
1:26:16 Chris Williamson? Three weeks ago.
1:26:17 William Costello? And we're in the academic manosphere.
1:26:18 Chris Williamson? We are the academic manosphere right here. Yeah. I, look, I am fucking really sort of close to this. It's interesting. I've been thinking for a while, you know, whatever, fucking an hour and twenty and I can talk about my, my deepest, darkest plans. Been thinking for a while about.
1:26:36 Chris Williamson? Pitching a limited series documentary about masculinity. I think I mentioned this to you briefly, that I think protector, provider, payer of attention, or at least provider, procreator, payer of attention will be an interesting sort of three part to do it. And the reason being,
1:26:58 Chris Williamson? you would be able to really tap into what's happening with men in work socioeconomically, what's happening with mating and what's happening with sort of personality and the role of men overall, like payer of attention would be the third one. The reason I don't like protector is that role was outsourced to the police like fucking 500 years ago. Like you don't really need that anymore. And this has been something that's like been bandied around, I guess internally for a little while. And I'm like, fuck, that's be really cool. Great team of people that I'd love to film it with if I could, some of the best documentarians on the planet. You've got all the tools. And now I'm like, how much fucking unwinding? How much of Netflix's adolescence am I going to have to refer to in order to be able to get us to the stage?
1:27:41 Chris Williamson? Like basically, is this a net positive or a net negative?
1:27:48 Chris Williamson? In real world impact, I genuinely would probably say net negative. I think I don't know what it's drawing attention to. Like it's drawing attention to the plight of young boys. Well, is it the plight or is it the danger? Because if it's drawing attention to the danger, the dangers are mischaracterized. And if it's drawing attention to the plight, it's unsympathetic. Yeah. Oh, it's drawing attention to the risk of the online ecosystems. You go, well, it didn't close those loops particularly well. It's drawing attention to the risks of childhood bullying. It's like, well, the blame wasn't placed at the feet of the victim. And if it was about bullying, then why would you leave the? So fantastic pieces of art, because obviously it's generating all of this intrigue and all of the loops are open.
1:28:31 Chris Williamson? I think Stephen Graham's quoted as even saying, I just hope it sparks conversation. And that's fantastic. But the problem is if the conversations can never fucking agree on what anybody takes away from it, you end up kind of just tying up mind cycles.
1:28:47 Chris Williamson? Not really coming to a conclusion.
1:28:48 William Costello? A positive male role model like yourself can't be unanimously agreed upon to be championed.
1:28:54 Chris Williamson? That's right, unanimously agree on me.
1:28:56 William Costello? I mean, I don't know, that a guy who quits drinking for a thousand days, does all this positive stuff, doesn't lie to young men, is earnest, is seen as credible, I don't know what other kind of CV you'd need for this role, but you know.
1:29:10 Chris Williamson? I spoke to Rogan about this the other week and said, uh.
1:29:14 William Costello? But that might be enough to damn you, right, going on Rogan.
1:29:17 Chris Williamson? Oh, yeah, it's whatever, it's guilt by association, I'm sure.
1:29:20 William Costello? I'm only gonna go on the podcast that could reach the most amount of young men in the world.
1:29:25 Chris Williamson? Yeah, that maybe influenced the outcome of the US election. And look, I think it's very easy to castigate and sort of smear entire groups, especially when you've got a cool term that's kind of very badly defined and pretty nebulous, like manosphere. And I'm sure, you know, to fucking fly the flag for the other side, I'm sure that well-meaning feminists like Mary Harrington, Louise Perry, Freya India, all of whom I guess would consider themselves some version of some kind of feminist, would hate the fact that they're lumped in with a bunch of fucking screeching, blue-haired, you know, like zero-sum man-hating people who don't care about women all that much, or maybe some of them aren't even women.
1:30:10 Chris Williamson? I don't think that they would appreciate that either. Actually, that's an interesting one. I wonder whether there's any women that are part of the manosphere.
1:30:16 William Costello? Oh, I wonder.
1:30:16 Chris Williamson? You know what I mean? Because you can have male feminists.
1:30:18 William Costello? Female MRAs, I mean, the original Red Pill documentary was Cassie J, it's a Cassie, I feel like that might be a porn star's name now. Cassie something.
1:30:28 Chris Williamson? Right.
1:30:29 William Costello? For sure. Had the Red Pill documentary, which was about her investigations into the men's rights activism corners, and a really powerful documentary.
1:30:38 Chris Williamson? Well, wasn't the term incel originally coined by a female as well?
1:30:41 William Costello? Yeah, absolutely. A lesbian woman, actually. And it's obviously.
1:30:45 Chris Williamson? God damn it, women, just give it up. You know what I mean? Give it up more easily. You're making the women suffer. You're making the men suffer.
1:30:50 William Costello? One final point, while I think of it, is on the idea of role models, and I've said they need to be credible. One really important source to look to, I think, is a positive incel forum, incel exit. It's full of stories of former incels who navigated their way out of it and how they're managing their new relationships and all the problems that go with that. That's very rarely spoken about, gets a lot fewer bits of attention is paid to that, and it's very important.
1:31:18 Chris Williamson? That's cool. Have you looked at, I think it's Married Red Pill?
1:31:22 William Costello? I haven't, no.
1:31:23 Chris Williamson? R slash, I want to say Married Red Pill. I might have got that wrong. But it's basically guys in committed, I think, I think, I might have, it might have got totally toxic and fucking useless. But guys in committed relationships using insights from EP and mating dynamics to kind of enhance their relationship. That sounds fucking great to me.
1:31:42 William Costello? That sounds like a book Jeffrey Miller would write. That is like.
1:31:44 Chris Williamson? Correct. Well, I think that that's the next thing that Jeffrey should do.
1:31:47 William Costello? Yeah.
1:31:47 Chris Williamson? For the people that never read it, because it was criminally uncirculated mate, become the man women want.
1:31:54 William Costello? Yeah.
1:31:54 Chris Williamson? Probably the best men's dating advice book of all time.
1:31:57 William Costello? Yeah.
1:31:58 Chris Williamson? I think.
1:31:58 William Costello? And Jeffrey used to run like an online call in show with Tucker Max and Karen Perelou, who used to be in our lab. So those were like the early days of trying to help young men.
1:32:09 Chris Williamson? Twenty twelve, twenty fourteen. There's a huge podcast. You can go back and listen to all of those. But I think that what would be, especially in this sort of new era, an equivalent that's like, those insights, but for long term relationships. I know that Diana's got How to Train Your Boyfriend.
1:32:27 William Costello? Yes.
1:32:28 Chris Williamson? Coming out soon, which I guess is the sort of female to male equivalent of that. But yeah, I think that a reverse version, a male to female thing of that would just be like.
1:32:35 William Costello? Yeah.
1:32:36 Chris Williamson? It would be great.
1:32:36 William Costello? And Jeffrey, to be fair to him, he's been at the coalface of trying to wrestle evolutionary psychology away from red pill or darker corners of the manosphere for the best part of a decade.
1:32:47 Chris Williamson? Yeah.
1:32:48 William Costello? So, you know, kudos to him on that one.
1:32:50 Chris Williamson? With limited or zero. Success.
1:32:52 William Costello? Just one other point while I remember it. We recently had a paper out that was kind of a white pill type paper, where we found that incels massively overestimate the animosity that society has for them and underestimate the sympathy. Now caveat, that wasn't true for feminist women. They actually were pretty accurate at detecting the amount of animosity they hold them in, which is perhaps understandable. But that's kind of important points to to show is like that. Society does have sympathy for these people. But in that paper, I had to write, we must take this all with a pinch of salt because incels do encounter a lot of hostility online.
1:33:34 William Costello? So take, for example, the amount of them that report to have childhood bullying. Sixty percent plus compared to roughly thirty percent in the general population. Now, it's hard to know, you know, you take everything incels say with a pinch of salt. They're very victim oriented. They're very rejection sensitive. And but you can look online now for real examples of the bullying. So for example, another forum is incel tier, which is literally a forum for bullying incels. It's literally recruits people to share stories of ridiculing incels. And incels are very performatively antagonistic and try and incur your criticism online for sure.
1:34:15 William Costello? But this forum got so bad that they had to instantiate a rule. I wrote this in our paper that they had to instantiate a rule saying, no more encouraging of suicide for incels, please. That's rule number one in this forum. So they do encounter, right, really, real hostility. So, yeah.
1:34:33 Chris Williamson? Yeah, it's it's a real. The term incel is one that I don't think anybody is ever going to call you out for using.
1:34:41 William Costello? Right.
1:34:41 Chris Williamson? You know, it's the perfect balance of comedy, ridiculousness and cutting.
1:34:48 William Costello? Yeah.
1:34:48 Chris Williamson? You know what I mean?
1:34:49 William Costello? And men use it to advertise that they could never be seen that way. Like, oh, ridiculous. So I would never call myself incel.
1:34:59 Chris Williamson? Yeah, I think actually cucked is probably the exact same, but both of those are around men. And I don't know. I don't know if there's an equivalent for women that would work in the same way. You couldn't call a girl a slut. You're gonna get a lot of pushback against that. Like, who the fuck do you think you are calling her a slut? Fuck you.
1:35:18 William Costello? Yeah, no, it's, it, people get really mean about it. So I've given talks in academic settings where I bring up the suicidality figures. And honestly, some scholars in the audience, depending on the type of group, come back to me with almost coming so close to saying, who cares? Are almost, you know, and they never like the idea that mental health can explain the misogyny. Because, but that's true. Mental health looks ugly sometimes. Really poor mental health looks really ugly. It looks like Kanye West acting out, right? That's poor mental health. It looks, it doesn't look nice and warm and fluffy of opening up about your feelings and getting in touch with your masculinity in a more healthy way.
1:36:00 William Costello? Yes, it could, but it more often for young men looks like aggression lashing out.
1:36:05 Chris Williamson? Yeah, rage, bitterness. Yeah, yeah.
1:36:08 William Costello? So it's a kind of a naivety, I would say, for people to think that the misogyny can't be explained at least partially by the mental health.
1:36:16 Chris Williamson? William Costello, ladies and gentlemen. William, you're great. I appreciate the fuck out of you. Where should people go? Don't want to keep up to date with that.
1:36:21 William Costello? I'm still spending far too much time on X, so that's the main place I'm hanging out these days, at Costello William. But if you're interested in our academic work, go to my ResearchGate profile or my Google Scholar and or email me and I'll send you whatever was that.
1:36:36 Chris Williamson? Fuck me, we need to get you a website, dude. So bad. Maybe before next time.
1:36:40 William Costello? Yes.
1:36:41 Chris Williamson? Appreciate you.
1:36:41 William Costello? Very good.
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