EP.248 - LOYLE CARNER

Adam talks with British-Guyanese hip hop musician Loyle Carner about Mums, Dads, being a parent, kids' music, bear attacks, managing ADHD, unwelcome thoughts and the value (vs the potential danger) of hope. Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 12th May, 2025 Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support and additional conversation editing. Podcast illustration by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/ SIGN UP FOR NEWSLETTER https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/ PIC AND MORE LINKS https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/82dyw29p3may2fa (ON ADAM'S WEBSITE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adam Buxton?

  I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buckston, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

• 0:31Adam Buxton?

  Hey, how are you doing, Podcats? It's Adam Buckston here with my best dog friend Rosie. The hot dog. Happy to say she's trotting along beside me and doing some panting.

• 0:51Adam Buxton?

  Would she rather be in the kitchen on the sofa? Yes. But even she can't deny that it's nice to be out on a pleasant, slightly blustery and cloudy evening at the very beginning of June 2025. How are you doing anyway, Podcats? I hope you're well, wherever you are. Thanks to everyone who came out to the Hay Festival last week. It was lovely to meet some of you. I'll waffle a little bit more at the end about that and some forthcoming events. But right now, let me tell you a bit about podcast number 248, which features a rambling conversation with British Guyanese rapper Loyal Kana. Loyal facts.

• 1:35Adam Buxton?

  Benjamin Gerard Coyle Lana, his stage name is a spoonerism of his surname, was born in 1994 to a British mother and a Guyanese father, who Ben did not have much contact with growing up. Instead, he and his brother were raised by his mother and stepdad in Croydon, South London. After studying drama in his teens, the death of Ben's stepfather in 2014 played a large part in his decision to commit full-time to music. He played his first official gig in 2012, aged just 18, at The Button Factory in Dublin, where he supported rap royalty in the form of MF Doom.

• 2:19Adam Buxton?

  Five years later, in 2017, Ben released his first album, Yesterday's Gone, which garnered both Mercury Prize and Brit Award nominations. This year sees the release of album number four, entitled Hopefully, out on the 20th of June. But earlier this year, Loyal went back to acting with his first major role in a BBC TV drama, Mint, directed by Charlotte Regan, whose much-praised debut feature Scraper was released in 2023. Mint is described as a darkly comic and unconventional drama about a crime family's inner life.

• 3:00Adam Buxton?

  I think the first time I was aware of Loyal Khan properly was in 2019, when we showed one of his videos at Bug, the one for Otulengi, directed by Oscar Hudson. One of my favourite kinds of video, the sort of thing Michel Gondry used to do so well. Very simple visual tricks, all set on a train journey on which Loyal has fallen asleep and begins to dream. I'll put a link in the description. Brilliant video, but also a lovely track, and I just thought, yes, please.

• 3:40Adam Buxton?

  My conversation with Ben was recorded just a few weeks ago, as I speak, in mid-May. We met in a North London recording studio where Ben and his band were rehearsing for the Glastonbury Festival, have you heard of that one? Where he will headline the other stage on the Friday night. And as well as some festival chat, we spoke about mums and dads and navigating the uncertainties of parenthood. Ben is the father of two young children. We also talked a bit about kids' music, a part of the conversation which took an unexpected turn into a fairly graphic description of a bear attack, just so you're aware, that was my fault. Not the attack, the conversational turn.

• 4:24Adam Buxton?

  We also spoke about the value of hope and to what extent it can also be dangerous. Some big philosophical topics in this convo. A name dropped Nietzsche and then Descartes when we talked about unwelcome thoughts, especially in the context of managing ADHD, which Ben has done throughout his life. I had a great time talking to Ben about all this stuff. He's one of the more emotionally engaged men I've ever met, I think. And though his voice, as you will hear, is always beautifully calm and steady, there were several moments during our conversation when his eyes filled with tears as he talked about moments that were meaningful to him,

• 5:08Adam Buxton?

  being with his mum at Glastonbury and watching the British musician and sometime collaborator Sampha playing the piano in the studio, for example. It was, if I say so myself, a beautiful ramble, which began with me trying to figure out what I should actually call him. Back at the end for a brief waffle slice, but right now with Ben slash Loyal Kana. Here we go.

• 6:16Adam Buxton?

  Now, do people in this setting call you Ben or Loyal?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Um, it's up to you. You call me Ben or Loyal, whatever you feel. It's honestly up to you, which is such a horrible answer, isn't it? Um, yeah, Ben, go for it. Yeah.

• 6:28Adam Buxton?

  Okay. But do you, do you think of yourself as loyal in your head?

• 6:33Speaker 02

  In, in this setting, probably a little bit more than usual.

• 6:37Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  But as I've got older, I think I kind of, I think of myself more as Ben, you know?

• 6:42Adam Buxton?

  Okay. Now, I keep thinking of you as loyal. I want to call you Ben.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  But it's confusing.

• 6:46Adam Buxton?

  But it is confusing because that's my relationship with you as your loyal.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  The loyal it is.

• 6:51Adam Buxton?

  Do you, and forgive me if this is a massively hack question.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 6:56Adam Buxton?

  But do your fans call themselves loyalists?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Wow. I don't know if I have enough listeners to have like a group yet, but maybe. It would be nice. I know there's like a loyalty card that you can get.

• 7:09Adam Buxton?

  I was gonna ask.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's like, I've seen that online, but loyalists, it would be nice.

• 7:14Adam Buxton?

  I guess the thing about loyalists though is there's some political baggage that goes with that.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Maybe it's maybe best to stay, to stay clear.

• 7:23Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, exactly. So you are officially on the kind of promo circuit for this record, is that right?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Actually, yeah, yeah. But it's still quite small, you know, trying to only speak with people, you know, if I really want to do it. You know, which is a bit of a blessing of this process compared to others. So I feel really lucky to sit down with you.

• 7:41Adam Buxton?

  Well, thank you so much for doing it. Do you enjoy promo though? Like, is it easy for you or does it make you anxious?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  I think, I think I, I'm anxious sometimes, you know, because I, I speak without thinking sometimes, you know? And that's like in this, in the climate of now, it's kind of dangerous sometimes, you know? So it's more just that, like, I don't wanna, you work so hard to like articulate how you feel in quite a nuanced and refined way, you know, and that's the piece of art you've made. And then sometimes I worry that like you can butcher that by over explaining it or, or not kind of summing it up as efficiently or eloquently. So, but I, I enjoy it. It helps me understand personally and selfishly. It helps me understand where I'm at with the piece of work I've made, you know? So I do find it useful and it sounds quite beautiful.

• 8:31Adam Buxton?

  Have you ever had media training?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  No, I wish. I need it.

• 8:36Adam Buxton?

  I need it as well.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:38Adam Buxton?

  I'm promoting a book at the moment. And every other interview, I come out and I've just got a knot in my stomach and I'm just like, ah, I am an inadequate agent for my art.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  But that's what's so difficult, isn't it? Because it's not, I've never been able, like, I'm not like the one to promote it. But I say, you know, like, back in the ages of Motown or whatever, obviously, the artists were never getting much money or respect, but like, there was like a whole world that were helping put it to people, you know, to explain what it is and how to engage with it. And I think when you're the person who makes it, it's really hard because you have no perspective, you know, I'm looking at it like right in front of my nose. And I think you really need to be able to zoom out to see what it is, or what it could mean to other people in order to be able to kind of um

• 9:22Speaker 02

  present it, you know, like, to kind of make it seem like it's something of of note, of interest.

• 9:27Adam Buxton?

  Understanding what you mean to other people is the big, massive quest, isn't it?

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 9:34Adam Buxton?

  Like, either you don't care or you and you cut yourself off completely from that. You don't ever think about it. You just plough your own furrow and whatever. Or you go the other way, which so many people in the modern media age, like the digital age and the internet age do. You can, you can spend your whole life checking out what people think.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Just know what people, but you don't know what they really think as well. You just know what they're comfortable to say, you know, on a keyboard or. But yeah, it's harder and harder to not engage with that. And I think it's making, it's affecting art, you know, in like a in some ways, you know, like the the presentation of it, there's so many blessings that come along with the how immediate it can be to share and comment and you know, like not comment, I guess, doesn't really help because you would never go to a gallery and see the Mona Lisa or whatever and then see like all the comments underneath of like, this many people have viewed it. Oh, she's got a double chin or you know, like, you would never see it.

• 10:24Adam Buxton?

  Dash.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it kind of gets, you know, it definitely gets in the way. But I think more than that, what I find, you know, from peers of mine and people I really look up to that I've had a chance to speak with is it's really hard not for it to get in the way and stop you from sharing stuff. You know, that like I find it like I make videos, I direct my own videos and if one doesn't get as many views, it makes me kind of go or likes or positive feedback or whatever, you kind of go, oh. I probably won't release enough of one of those for a bit, because that kind of hurt me. You know, when really you're not doing it for that, you know, you're, you're, you know, there's, I feel like there's a lot of people out there who would release a lot more, share a lot more if they weren't thinking about like the open engagement of it. Because engagement is fine, but like it being so public, you know?

• 11:04Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, that's the thing. It's nice when you know that the people listening or engaging are well disposed to you. So they're going to receive everything you give them in the best possible spirit. But when you travel beyond that into the wider world where people are a little more indifferent, then they're not so well disposed. They might misinterpret where you're coming from or just view it in the most unkind light.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  It can, which can be fine, you know, I think like in, in the real world, that's fine, you know, when we play festivals and you see kind of the first few rows of people who are intentionally there to see you.

• 11:37Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  And then you see the next few rows of people who are kind of like friends have brought them. And then behind that is people who are just waiting for the next person or because they can't move to move or they're drunk or whatever. And sometimes to me, that's kind of the most honest representation of how you're really doing, you know, because these are just people that are coming to experience what you have with no explanation, you know, which I think in a way you kind of should engage with some art like that, you know, like. Like I don't like to watch trailers before I watch a film because I don't want to know what it's about, you know, I want to experience it. But I think because of online, it's like I, I want you to like people to engage with it however they want to. But I don't want to know how they engage with it. I think is the issue online, you know? Like if you hate it, that's fine, but you don't have to like let me know immediately with loads of emojis, you know?

• 12:21Adam Buxton?

  That's the thing, isn't it? Like in the live environment, then that's fair enough, isn't it? And that's going to encourage you to really pull out the stops to win the crowd over as well. So that must be quite fun.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Hmm. For us, when we play festivals, especially in Europe or, you know, further afield, sometimes we're on in the middle of the day and there's just no guarantee that anyone will show up. And at times those shows have been the best because you start to understand actually what songs are good and what songs are not good. Because it's easy for people to sing along if they know, even if it's not a good song. Because if I see someone that I kind of half know and their big single is out or whatever and it comes on, part empathy, because I know how it feels, but also just because I want to be seen to know it. I'll be singing along just to be like, oh, I know this one, even if I don't really like it. But I think if you play songs in front of people and they know nothing about you, you'll then know quite quickly what songs or whatever you make, you know, if you put it in front of an audience who doesn't understand you.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  You'll know what things work universally in a meaningful way, you know.

• 13:17Adam Buxton?

  So you're playing Glastonbury this year.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:20Adam Buxton?

  And you've got a good old slot there, if you don't mind me talking about your slot.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're headlining the other stage on Friday night.

• 13:27Adam Buxton?

  Nice.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  I think is the best night to play because it means that you can kind of enjoy the festival without pressure. You know, like I'll be bringing my kids and my partner and stuff and. Yeah, to be able to kind of go and treat it as a show and to enjoy the ceremony of it, but then not have it hanging over me all weekend. Because it's such a big deal.

• 13:44Adam Buxton?

  So you're on at what time, nine thirty or something?

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Something like that, nine thirty, ten, in that, in that ballpark, yeah.

• 13:51Adam Buxton?

  And how long do you play for?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Um, about seventy five minutes, which to me is too long. I, I really feel like an hour is like the perfect thing for anything, you know, a movie, maybe ninety minutes and a, and a set sixty minutes.

• 14:03Adam Buxton?

  Agreed.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Want to leave people in, I never, maybe it's just my, when I go to see a show, but I get to the point after about an hour and a bit where I'm like, I've loved this and I would really love it to end now.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  And when it doesn't, I start to resent it and I don't want that ever to do that to people. So. But I've had a lot of complaints when I started of, of my set being too short. Because not everyone thinks like me about it, so.

• 14:24Adam Buxton?

  I just think you're absolutely right. It's just so much better to leave people wanting more and to have a little nice concise moment. I guess I understand when there's a financial

• 14:37Speaker 02

  True.

• 14:38Adam Buxton?

  dimension to it and people feel like, oh, well, I paid for these tickets and I want my money's worth, but on the other hand, you want to have a good time and you don't want, that feeling is so sad of just feeling like, I'm a little bit bored now.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:52Adam Buxton?

  You know.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  And it's someone that you love. I think also, you know, we, my friend was talking about this the other day about art in general and, and the best art to me or the stuff I love, there seems to be this current thread of, like this continuous thread of like things being a bit incomplete. That I get to finish it off in my head, you know, and I think in a way to watch a set where you don't see everything and you don't hear absolutely everything. So there's still a little bit of mystique and magic to it, you know, like I love watching festival sets because you know, in a way, sometimes they play their best bits or they play their new bits or whatever. And you're kind of left going, I really want to see them again. And you might never get a chance to, but just that like feeling of, that childlike feeling of hope and wonder and.

• 15:28Adam Buxton?

  Do you remember? Your favourite festival set or one of the festival sets you ever saw that really stuck with you?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, actually, and it's kind of taboo now, I guess, but not.

• 15:41Adam Buxton?

  Bill Cosby.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Nah, nah, nah, nah, but it's, I saw Kanye West with my mum.

• 15:48Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  And I was meant to see Kanye West, um, old Kanye West, which is also a phrase that I don't like to say, but it's true. I was such a big fan of his, you know, when College Dropout came out and I was very young. And I think someone had been shot or stabbed or something at Brixton Academy and my friend had tickets. And I said to my mum, like, I would love to go see Kanye West. It was like my, would have been my first gig. And it was, you know, just as he was kind of becoming a person, you know, like a person of note in the world that I existed in. My mum was like, there's no way you're going. There's no way. So it's too dangerous. And I was like, I'll be with my friend and his dad and his mum's going and another friend.

• 16:22Adam Buxton?

  How old were you?

• 16:23Speaker 02

  I think like between like twelve and fourteen, in that, like, maybe a bit younger, maybe a bit older, but, but young for sure, you know? I guess for my mum's generation of parents, like the, the view of rap was a little bit like unless you grew up on it, there was like negative connotations with it, whatever. And she was like, you can't go. And I never let her forget it, basically, you know? I mean, it worked out in, you know, for me because it made me end up doing it as a job, but years later, he played Glastonbury and I had lost all the people I'd come with. And my mum was there with some of her friends and she had lost them. And we were, we both kind of bumped into each other just before we started playing. And I said to my mum, like, you know, Kanye West is playing and would you want to stay with me? Because obviously you let me down years ago. And she was like, of course, I'd love to. So

• 17:07Speaker 02

  more, not so much with the show, because the show is very ego centric even at that stage of his career, but to be there with my mum was almost worth missing it as a kid, you know, to watch it with her and, and for her to like, kind of, in a way was like cool for her to watch it and understand why I wanted to see it so bad when I was a kid and, and just how much I love it, you know, makes me want to cry actually, I don't know why, but like and the, the articulation of those emotions and how he feels at that time on that album meant so much to me. And she saw me. Feeling that and understood it, you know, so.

• 17:40Adam Buxton?

  It's a big deal.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  It is, yeah, yeah, I just had a lot of love for it, yeah.

• 17:44Adam Buxton?

  Now, you were very kind and agreed to meet my daughter.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:49Adam Buxton?

  Uh, who's called Hope, who's a big fan of yours, and she was very excited when I said there was a possibility I was going to be talking to you. So she travelled to London to just say hi.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 18:01Adam Buxton?

  And we got a photo, but I also asked her if there were any things that she wanted me to ask you.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 18:09Adam Buxton?

  So I've got some questions that she came up with.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  That's awesome.

• 18:14Adam Buxton?

  Uh, question one, how do you feel about the blending of your personal life and your music?

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I don't know how to feel about that sometimes. I think I never thought about it when I started out making music, because I was very like unaware that anyone would ever really hear it, you know, I was doing it to make myself feel better or understand how I felt. And I think, especially now I have kids, it's like, that's been like a whole new thing on this process of like finding a way to articulate, you know, like how I feel, uh, like the love I have for them, but but not sacrifice any of their privacy or, you know, their life and and not to commodify them, you know, into ever feeling like they're partly in use of a product or to sell a thing, you know, which, um,

• 19:03Speaker 02

  yeah, it's easier said than done. Um, I think on my second album, I got some like mean reviews, which everyone gets at some point, and but I remember them being like quite targeted to like the subject matter of my album, but then that being my family and and having to kind of reconsider because for someone to cut down your work is fine, you know, but to cut down your work, that's actually just a reflection of, you know, a real representation of your family or the people you love is a bit harder to navigate. And so as I've made music, I've become more coded, I think, more protective of those that I hold close to me. And also with the understanding now that a few people might actually hear it when I release it, you know, which is not something I was thinking about at the start.

• 19:44Adam Buxton?

  Have you ever had awkward moments off the back of that kind of thing?

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Um.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Not really, you know, I think uh like some of my early music about my dad was like kinda angry. You know, but we we have like, I think actually was kind of good, you know, it kind of helped. It made, I was able to kinda like say some stuff to him that maybe I wouldn't have said, or I couldn't say to him.

• 20:06Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  You know, but he understood and heard it and was like kind of, you know, embarrassed or his friends would hear it and then. It kinda made us have to talk about it. So maybe good actually, to my mind, like as a parent, you have to face up to it, I think. And you can go into being a parent as I did, being like, I'm gonna be the best one, ever is. And then about like a week in, you go, oh, actually, I'm gonna be terrible, you're like everyone else. And I think like. Being able to turn over your heavy stones and look at it and speak with your kids or whatever and go. Because also things that are big memories for you and usually not big memories for them and the things that you don't remember. Tiny things that you like flip away like, oh, they will never remember that or not even, you don't even like comprehend it.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  They're the things that really stick with them. And if, you know, my son ever says to me, dad, you know, when you do X, Y and Z or you did this or. That really hurt my feelings or it made me sad or all you can do in that moment is acknowledge it. Because it's true, you know, it's not like him saying it hurt him or you saying your parents did what, I don't know what you said, but like. I think the only thing a parent can do is go, yeah, sorry.

• 21:08Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, of course, you're right.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  You know.

• 21:10Adam Buxton?

  But I've had that, the first time that happened to me, when my kids got old enough and they were in their teens and they were starting to. Articulate things that they'd been upset by when they were little.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:20Adam Buxton?

  And in my mind, it's like, what? You totally misunderstood that. It was fa- that was nothing. I remember that and it was absolutely nothing. You're making too big a deal out of it. That that was my initial response.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah, to defend and.

• 21:34Adam Buxton?

  Because, yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  That's also your perspective though too. And and it probably did, like if you were to zoom out as an adult, it's like, oh, that is. And if any other adult saw it, they'd be like, yeah, that's fine. Other parents would be like, no worry, nothing to worry about. The kids just don't, like especially when you're a kid and you live with your parents and you're young. Your parents are like. They're your whole existence and they're your whole like reference point, if you're lucky to live with both of them, or at least to live with one, of the outside world and how they navigate the outside world is how you will and start to navigate it until you learn that probably it's not the best way or whatever, you know, so. I think even if you, obviously you can caveat it with with like, this is maybe not real real past your experience. But you have to acknowledge it, you know, but it's I'm saying it like I do it and already I find it hard.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Cause whenever he says like, if me and my partner are arguing or whatever, he's like, guys arguing and I'm like, we're not arguing, we're just talking about this thing. And we disagree and we're both frustrated, you know?

• 22:27Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  But he doesn't get that. He just gets like the voices that are raised. No one's listening to him about turning the T V on and he doesn't like that, you know?

• 22:35Adam Buxton?

  Yes, exactly. Me and my wife had a row a while back and um, one of the kids said something like, you guys are always arguing. And I said, that is just simply not true and I've got the argument log and I can show you dates. And we don't argue. I mean, we know, we go through phases. Where we might be touchy with each other, but we're not one of those couples. We're not like my parents used to be. They were hammer and tongs the whole time. And plus, I think we've got a lot better, but it is always, you know, again, it's a reminder. It's like, well, from their perspective, every single confrontation, every single uncomfortable meal is a big deal.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  True.

• 23:16Adam Buxton?

  And it's a sadness, you know?

• 23:18Speaker 02

  But to repair it is the thing. I don't know if you've you read that book by um, Peppa Perry, the how.

• 23:23Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah, I know of it.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Your kids will be glad you read it. The opening chapter, which I think is clever is the opening chapter, cause you know, I'm like many people maybe don't like. Ever finish books, but I always start them with a good intent and she's put like, to my mind, like the most important chapter at the very beginning and it's about kind of that, like this idea of rupture and repair and that rupture is inevitable. You know, like if you're living with people, um, no matter who the relationship is with, parents or children, friends, you know, like romantically. And the rupture is, if it's inescapable, the best thing to do is accept it, but the next thing, the thing that's most essential, especially for kids is to repair it, you know, is to go not to leave it, not to be like you fall out of your kid or you fall out in front of your kid.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  And then to never address it and the next day at the dinner table, you act like everything's fine, but to kind of go, last night sucked, right? Like me and mom are really shouting and. Was kind of, you were really sad and then you went to bed and we didn't really talk and I could see you, you know, like completely unpack it.

• 24:20Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  So that there's no secret there. And also to show that it actually affected you too. Because if my son sees me. Kind of go, last night sucked. Then for him to feel like last night sucked is not like. He's not worried he's gonna be in trouble if he says, like, that really made me sad, you know, because we can be like, that made us sad too. We don't wanna fall out, you know?

• 24:39Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm presuming your parents did not do the.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  And the repair. My mom, my mom, I feel like my mom did, like. But then in a way, sometimes my mom was like, um, like, was like conscious, because it was just me and her for a long time, like, wouldn't. Like, didn't wanna even get to the rupture, you know, like, it would start to happen, it would just like, kind of be like, it's, it's fine.

• 25:00Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  It's fine, don't worry, you know. Uh, but me and my dad, like, we, we've had to, like, but the thing what's so crazy about it is that me and my dad must have repaired, like, probably the biggest rupture. Like, that I had experienced, like, you know, probably in my life with him. And, like, at the hands of him, you know, and, like, we was kind of in a way when able to, like, begin to repair it. Almost like fucking twenty five years later, you know, so it's what I remember when me and my dad were hashing it out and it was like. Almost felt like yesterday, you know, to get a hug and like, just, I'm sorry, that's my fault. Like, as small as that, you know, and I was like, whoa, like. Like the scene in Ratatouille when the guy, like, eats the Ratatouille and it takes him back to his childhood, you know, I was like, straight there.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  And felt like the kid that didn't get a hug then, or the kid me, got that hug now and then, you know, like in a child and, and out a child. Um, yeah, it's heavy.

• 25:51Adam Buxton?

  That is heavy, man.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 25:54Adam Buxton?

  That's wonderful that you got that, though. Most people just dream about that moment.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I think, but I think also because people sometimes are scared to ask about, bring it up, you know what I mean, to actually be like, wicked heavy down. But also, yeah, like, how awesome that my dad is able to do that too.

• 26:07Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Because it's, it's easier to just go, nah, like.

• 26:12Adam Buxton?

  Instead, what most people do, I guess, is, I know I've done it, I mean, you could sort of say, I've written two books about it. Is, actually, I hope I don't blame my parents for everything, and I hope I do. Remind myself that and other people that, you know, I loved them both so much and they were, I I was so lucky to have them and they did me so many favors in so many ways and and you know, got me this amazingly privileged life that I'm very grateful for.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Um.

• 26:39Adam Buxton?

  But the temptation is always there to kind of make sense of your own life by identifying all the ways that your parents screwed you up.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 26:48Adam Buxton?

  And all the, all the hangups you inherited from them and that they put on you. But I was watching this John Waters video, you know, the director, American director.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Um, uh huh.

• 26:58Adam Buxton?

  He said, you can blame your parents until you're thirty, but after forties, that's it. You've got to stop whining there. Everyone's dealt a hand. Everyone has ups and downs.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  True.

• 27:08Adam Buxton?

  You can't order your kids. You can't order up your parents. You just popped here. You're cast with whatever's in you. You've got to make the best of it. So have a good old wine.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Um.

• 27:17Adam Buxton?

  For, for the first half of your life.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  True, because that's the, in the, in the whining at the first half, you're like, you're getting feedback and kind of learning what bits are valid and which bits are probably a bit of you, right?

• 27:27Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  And by at least that, you should be kind of knowing, okay, I keep complaining about this one thing, but it keeps coming up and, you know, my parents only did it once. So surely there's a bit of me in there too, you know?

• 27:37Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:39Adam Buxton?

  What do you think the values are that you got from your mum? That's a big old question. I mean, have you got a sense of what the main things are that you want to pass on to your own children?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, just, you know, like, let them do what they enjoy doing, you know? And help them find that. Trust them.

• 27:59Adam Buxton?

  Like, what are the big rules with my children?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:02Adam Buxton?

  The thing I'm, like, I didn't have many.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:04Adam Buxton?

  I felt like, you know, you, you feel so inadequate. You're like, God, there's so many things that I've done wrong and that I continue to do wrong. It feels weird to act like you know anything with your children sometimes. But the things I have tried to pass on that I know are true are don't lie.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Um.

• 28:23Adam Buxton?

  Take pleasure in trying to do things well.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Um.

• 28:26Adam Buxton?

  Like, that is a fun thing to actually care about how well something is done.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow.

• 28:32Adam Buxton?

  And generally to sort of try and fight the urge to be negative about things.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:37Adam Buxton?

  As far as possible.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Those are the main things. Also, don't lick the back of a metal ice tray. You've just taken out of a freezer. Please, never again. Cause I did that. And I peeled off the top of my tongue. I don't know, I mean, definitely, I mean, like, the first one, my mum taught me, but it's just to be kind, you know? Like, as much as possible. And always go there. If you don't know which way to go, like, lead with that, you know? Um, especially if people are being unkind. Um, and to like to listen in that way, but I think, yeah, just to help them like learn how to love themselves and put themselves first. You know, and to, and to do what they enjoy. Hmm. You know, like to, to really like not feel any pressure.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Of course, there's financial pressure, uh, housing, all this stuff that comes as you get older, but like, especially in those formative years. To like lead with like things that make them feel good, you know, and to help them discover those and nourish those. And to show, I mean, like, my promise to them is just, it's just to show up, you know? Mm hmm. Like, if they do, if they're interested in something, if they like something, I just, to love that. You know, whatever it is, even if I don't agree at the start, to under, to try and understand it enough. Before I dismiss it, or to try and say it's not helpful, or it's not healthy, or whatever, you know, to really like, to like walk in their shoes for a bit. You know? Hmm. But I think that's it, just to love what they love and who they love and, you know, that good stuff. Do your kids listen to your music?

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I mean, the, on this album, actually, it's been nice, cause they're, to me, quite a good. Music stick of like, what is a immediate music, like, what is the music for the real sense of it, you know, like? To uplift or to carry or to hold or to, you know, to sit with someone in sadness. Like, not, like, I'm trying to make, simplify my music in a way so that it. It, it's really hard to sum up how I feel about them in words. And my music has become more melodic and become more abstract because my love for them is that, you know, it's not literal. Cause it can't be the love of kids, you know, like, the love of my children is confusing and like, uh, every, I have no words for it. And so I think my latest album, they love.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Because of that, you know, because I think that they can feel their presence on it. You know, there's like chaos and then complete calm and then destruction and then hope, then anguish. You know, like all the things that you feel like getting changed for swimming or whatever, you know. So, yeah, I I think on this album, but they they don't kind of comprehend it's me so much. Or they don't comprehend that like it's different to what other parents do. You know, like, I think they think that all parents get in the car and listen to the same song with tiny differences to check. The EQ of the drummer, you know, like where their dad's shouting or whatever. So. Um, yeah, and I long may that continue. I I'm kind of hesitant. You know, the shows, I guess, is the only place where they kind of see that there's something like weird going on with me.

• 31:30Adam Buxton?

  What kind of stuff do they like listening to in the car if it's not your music?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Red Hot Chili Peppers.

• 31:34Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Californication, it's my son's favorite album. They love samphire. They love, well, I'm playing a lot of Elliott Smith to my son right now. And then he's starting to really enjoy that, like guitar. They just love guitar.

• 31:47Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  And drums. Those two things are like, my daughter loves drums and my son loves guitar.

• 31:54Adam Buxton?

  That's a lot of roughage in their musical diet.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:56Adam Buxton?

  When I was a kid, we just listened to my parents' music, which was Glenn Miller.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 32:03Adam Buxton?

  And Wagner, if my dad was driving.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 32:07Adam Buxton?

  And then Frank Sinatra and things like that.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:11Adam Buxton?

  And then The Muppet Show. We got The Muppet Show cassette and that was a big deal. Do they listen to kids' music?

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, like Bluey. Bluey's like the number one because that's my favorite kids' show and there's. And then Baby Jake. Don't even know Baby Jake.

• 32:24Adam Buxton?

  Don't know Baby Jake.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Ogie, ogie, ogie, doot, doot, dee. That's a big tune in the car.

• 32:28Adam Buxton?

  How does it go again?

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Don't worry. A nice try.

• 32:33Adam Buxton?

  Ogie, ogie, ogie, doot, doot, dee.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Bar, bar, bar, beep, beep. You'll see. Yeah, it's like a, it's it's a beautiful show, actually. It's about. That little boy has a little brother and I'm pretty sure that they actually recorded, like they've kind of made sense of the baby's like ramblings. And they kind of made this whole world out of like what's seemingly disconnected, which is quite beautiful.

• 32:54Adam Buxton?

  Did you ever listen to Baby Shark?

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Of course. Thanks to the nursery, actually, and I'll never forgive them for that because we didn't give it to them. But they came back one day just being like, doot, doot, doot, doot, Baby Shark. And how could you say no to those eyes?

• 33:08Adam Buxton?

  I didn't even know about Baby Shark because my kids were by that time too old for it, I think.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:15Adam Buxton?

  And so it totally passed me by and I only found out about it when I was listening to a podcast of survival stories. And there was some guy who'd been mauled by a bear and his whole face had been ripped off. I'm laughing because it was so horrific. It's not funny to be mauled and have your face ripped off by a bear. I suppose the hopeful part is that he survived this guy.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:37Adam Buxton?

  And his face has kind of been more or less sewn back together and, you know, he's able to talk about it and have a sense of humour about it. But while he was sitting there under a tree, looking around after this bear had attacked him and the bear went away and then came back.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Like the revenant, basically.

• 33:51Adam Buxton?

  It was like the revenant.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Which is the scariest.

• 33:53Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Adam Buxton?

  And he, this guy was looking around through the blood that was pouring down his face. And at one point he describes seeing his nose a little way over and, you know, bits of his ear and stuff like that and thinking, ah, that's my nose. And he knew he had to kind of not pass out and stay awake.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:17Adam Buxton?

  And so he started listening to Baby Shark.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  No way.

• 34:20Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Baby Shark saved his life.

• 34:22Adam Buxton?

  Sort of, yeah. Cause his daughter was into Baby Shark, so it was, it was there on his phone. So he listened to Baby Shark over and over to keep him conscious. And then he managed to get down that, down the mountain. He was hiking out in, uh, maybe Canada.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  No way.

• 34:39Adam Buxton?

  And, um, he was able to get back to his car, drive to a house.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 34:46Adam Buxton?

  Go out and ring the bell of the house and like a kid answered the door and just screamed.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Like what the fuck?

• 34:53Adam Buxton?

  It was in a bad way.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  That's, it's actually such a beautiful story because the main part of it is like, obviously the connection between him and his daughter, you know? That it's like immediate, like repetition of like, cause I have those in the car with my, with my son, like finite little sections of songs where I've looked to him and he's been like, eyes closed or belting something out. And they're so, they're like little capsules that whenever I listen to the song, I'm, I'm like there, you know, like he's right by my side. Maybe that's what's happening for him. Cause there's no other way that you could, you know?

• 35:23Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  There's no other way that you're handling that than by being like so lifted by that, you know?

• 35:29Adam Buxton?

  Well, the musical connection is a very powerful, magical thing, isn't it?

• 35:33Speaker 02

  True, yeah, true, true. I feel very lucky because, you know, like. I try and play loads of instruments, but I'm not very good. And so like to be around musicians, like real ones, ones that like at a high level. For me is like, I feel very privileged because I'm around it a lot, but like. A few times, like I was, the first time I was in a studio with Samfa and he started playing on the piano and singing at the same time. That was like.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, again, makes me wanna cry at that. I was just like. I felt so lucky to watch it happen, you know, it was like watching like a volcano erupt or, you know, like things that you just, you shouldn't ever get to see or like a. Whale coming out of the ocean, you know, like just those things where you're seeing something doing what it's meant to do. And it's really rare, you know, um, but yeah, that has happened a few times, happened with um, a guy called Nick Hakim. On on this album, you know, he was like kind of reluctant to. Sing and you know, he's so, it's so beautiful, his voice, he doesn't wanna use it much and. We're kind of these goofy guys from London that are like trying to like coax this amazing thing out of him, you know, and then he just stood up, I'd written it and sung it and then. On a song called Don't Fix It, and then he got up and like.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Just started singing in the corner, like hunched over the mic, we couldn't see his face, but just like, yeah, again. Yeah, I think for me, I think singing is a big one for me when I, because I can't really do it, like when I watch people. In all things, when I watch someone do the thing that they are meant to do, you know, not necessarily that they wanna do, but like the thing that they're like. Unquestionable, like they're just like so incredible at it. I just can't help but like wanna cry, you know, and be and feel so lucky to be on that patch of land with them, you know.

• 37:14Adam Buxton?

  I do know, yeah. Watching people do things really well is very emotional, isn't it?

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:19Adam Buxton?

  I do remember my dad saying that, watching Torville and Dean, you know, the ice skaters.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

• 37:26Adam Buxton?

  And I remember when it was all about Torville and Dean and they were doing Bolero and.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 37:31Adam Buxton?

  And this early eighties, I guess. And uh, and I remember my dad just getting quite emotional and in a way that I. Did not expect him to.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 37:40Adam Buxton?

  It was not all about ice skating. He was just like, wow, look at them, they're in the zone.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And seeing someone loves like love something, you know, like, or even if they don't and they're challenged by it, but you know, like watching someone. Who's been able to achieve a thing that they, you know, they they set out to do that's not easy, you know, like I feel like I wanna watch football all the time, like. Just the poetry in motion of someone who's like. Because what you're seeing, you're getting a glimpse into like the best bit, you know, like that piece of magic. And that's like a combination of like, however, many hundreds of thousands of hours of getting it wrong, falling, hurting, injury, etc, you know, like ice skating, slipping, cutting your fingers, whatever. All just for that little finite moment where you would like achieve, you know, like that whatever flow state or, you know, where someone's just enjoying something.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  And it's so intoxicating to watch that, you know, to watch someone enjoy themselves. That's what, like I was saying before, that's what I really want for my kids is just to like, watch them enjoy something. So much so, you know, that like, it means that they do it really well, you know?

• 38:41Adam Buxton?

  Do you enjoy yourself on stage or are you concentrating on just not fucking up?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Uh, it depends. Yeah, no, I think I do. I've actually been on set recently, like making a TV show.

• 38:53Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah. What are you doing? Can you talk about it?

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Working with this, um, working with this director called Charlie Reagan, who did a film called Scraper. And I'm a, I'm a big fan of hers. And now like, now we're friends and I feel like that to me has been, it reminded me of when I first, you know, and even on it, maybe this album is probably the closest I've got to it in a while, but like, you know, when you first start doing something and you're doing it for the first time. And when I was young, when I started making music, playing those first shows, I felt so alive, but I, I didn't know that like, that's like a special thing. I was like, wow, this is, I can't believe I'm doing this thing and I'm gonna just be alive always, you know? To be like thirty and to step on set and be petrified, but also so fulfilled and challenged and like, respected, you know, and, and pushed like to feel so alive, but also have a little bit of perspective to go like,

• 39:41Speaker 02

  fucking hell, this is like, I might never feel like this again on this, you know, so like, you're live, you're living it right now. You're living that thing that people dream about living, you know?

• 39:48Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Um, and to be able to feel it and then acknowledge the feeling without getting in your own way was like a, a mad thing. So that, that to me was like the closest memory I have at the moment of like doing something and going like, yeah. I love this, you know, I love it.

• 40:04Adam Buxton?

  You seem like you live life on a a real intense emotional pitch.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, today you've caught me on a crazy day because I'm really there, I really am.

• 40:13Adam Buxton?

  That's good. I feel, I mean, I feel that coming through and it's it's really nice, you know, I relate to that. I feel like that myself sometimes. Sometimes it annoys me that I do get emotional. I feel like it would be nice just to cruise through on a little bit. Like, I wish there was a bit more uh flattening out sometimes, you know, and sometimes my friends who take um medication for depression and the way they the way they describe the flattening out of their life, which sometimes is bad, but now I understand in the modern pharmacological world, they've got better at fine tuning those medicines. So that you do, everything just feels a bit less all over the place and a bit more manageable. Have you, you've never taken antidepressant?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  No, no, I I used to take, I it scares me a lot that like to, because I'm I'm on the like, you know, I really feel the high and I really feel the low, you know? And I kind of love that, like the feeling of being like, because it makes me feel alive. I feel more worried when I feel numb, because I've felt like that before, you know? And so like the times when I feel, when it's when I'm really at the edge of like the tears and I don't know if they're happy or sad, but I'm just feeling them anyways. It's like, this is my best days, you know? Yeah, albeit a little bit embarrassing. But I did used to take um ADHD medication, like Equin, Concerto, Ritalin, like those kind of things when I was a kid. Um, which is like, I guess effectively speed, you know?

• 41:37Adam Buxton?

  Is it?

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically.

• 41:38Adam Buxton?

  You would think you want the opposite.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  True, but what is fascinating, actually, like a lot of things that like are supposed to stimulate, like, you know, uh, my brain, I have ADHD, neurodiverse, the neurodiversity. Um, being that there's like synapses in your brain, you're like going from, you're basically going from thought to thought, right? But like, the gap is just a little bit too big in my brain, or like, instead of having like one, like a single minded thought, I go, I'm gonna do this, and my brain goes, cool, you're telling yourself to do this. We've received it, we're gonna go do this. Before it gets a chance to like land, it splits into four, eight, twelve, sixteen. So I go upstairs, being like, I'm gonna go get my socks, and then I see my notebook, and then I start writing in it. And then I'd look down and see my shoes and go, oh yeah, I should put those away. And then an hour will pass, and before I know it, I'll be outside like cleaning the car. Or talking about this, when really I was trying to answer your question. Basically, it zeros you in, so you can

• 42:26Speaker 02

  be singular, you know, and in a way that's useful if you're working in a job that's.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  I in the society that we live in, in the metropolis, but it's not really like for how we're to my mind, like how we were intended to be, you know, um, but yeah, so I used to take them would like have no appetite all day. Wouldn't eat, would do all my work, but was just like not fun. I mean, I'm not funny at the best of times, but like I really was not funny at all, not creative. And I come back at about seven o'clock, like I get home at four or five and then by about seven it'd wear off. And I'd be starving and have all these jokes I want to tell, you know, like I just, I would come back and I guess what I learnt through that was like ADHD was not so much like a thing to get rid of. Cause when I got rid of it, I was like getting rid of like of me, you know, it wasn't like, it was like a separate piece, you know?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Like people talk about, you know, you know, any neurodiversity, autism, ADHD, OCD, all these things, right? But actually they are you, right? And so, yes, you get some benefit from losing the bad bits in them, but you also lose all of the positive. Um, but yeah, I I I took those, then I was like firmly not taking them anymore and, um.

• 43:33Adam Buxton?

  And so do you have strategies? Do you need to have strategies for managing it?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  For sure, for sure. But I think the main, the main ones is like, like therapy, like cognitive behavioural therapy is what I do, CBT, which I find like quite profound. And I, and I have done for like ten years now and seeing the same lady, which is fucking crazy since my dad died, um. And that I think, you know, of like, almost like treating it like the gym for my brain, you know what I mean? Like going and the repetition of it and the consistency and the willingness to push through things that are really scary and hard, you know, I've got better at it, I think, since I had kids, but that's like my number one. And then the other ones are harder to get as a parent, but like eating well and sleep. And it's the therapy for me though, is like, that's the thing that like, and just like learning, like basically like the acceptance of myself, you know, like talking to myself

• 44:21Speaker 02

  like I'm not a dickhead, basically, you know, actually like I'm a person who's trying hard, you know? That I'd say is the main one.

• 44:28Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:29Adam Buxton?

  Is there a strategy you got from cognitive behavioural therapy? That was a real game changer that you just thought, whoa, hang on, this is a hallelujah moment?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, like all the time, but I mean, just like the self-talk, you know, like understanding to kind of be a little bit less like.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  I'm trying to find a way of articulating it simply because it feels so convoluted.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  To kind of be in acceptance of your thoughts, you know, to be able to like to understand that you're almost like, if your thoughts are clouds, then you are the sky, you know, you are not your thoughts, you know what I mean? And that you you have to allow them to pass like clouds do in the sky, you know, like, there's no point zeroing in on one and going, I'm defined by that because the sky is not defined by a cloud, you know? The sky is the sky, so. Um, yeah, to me, like, I think that was a big thing and and and and learning that, like, when I'm feeling anxious, when I'm feeling guilty, ashamed, or even if these feelings don't have merit, and they're kind of being conjured up through false fear or anxiety or whatever, to accept them. And to accept that I feel like that and not go, this is a, this is gonna ruin my day. I can't be feeling anxious right now because I'm supposed to be on stage at Glastonbury, I'm supposed to be

• 45:37Speaker 02

  talking with you or whatever, and as I talk about it, I feel it coming into my belly, I always feel like a real like guilt in the pit of my stomach and like, to like, accept that and go anyways. Like that, even with this happening right now, it's not a threat to my like current happiness or to my relationships or to myself or, you know, it's just, it's just a part of my day.

• 45:58Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, that is such a valuable insight, isn't it? Because, you know, when you first read Descartes saying, I think therefore I am, and that's part of a sense you have as a human being that you are your thoughts, that human beings are defined by the way they think and and the fact that they think and that they can articulate their thoughts. And so the idea that you can actually separate yourself from that and that it is useful to separate yourself sometimes.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  That you can choose, you know, that you can go like, this one is important to me, I like that one, I'm gonna run with that. And the ones you don't like, to go like, to not put so much pressure on to be like, I don't like that, can't ever think that again. But to go, oh, there goes one I don't like, you know, and to let that one go, and that's fine.

• 46:42Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  What a nice thing to be able to do that, to kind of go like, to to pick and choose.

• 47:41Adam Buxton?

  I want to ask you about Hope, because that's the name of the album.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, hopefully, yeah, yeah.

• 47:46Adam Buxton?

  Hopefully, and it happens to be the name of my daughter as well.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yes, of course, well, yeah. I didn't even twig, you know, but there is such a, I really, after the fact, really wish I'd, not wish, I'm glad, I'm happy with my daughter's name, but I, I did think, oh, Hope is such a beautiful name, right? Um, it was, it came about in a really small way, that when we were in the studio, we were making music, and music making is really awkward sometimes, or all the time, because there's loads of people with all this energy, and a want to make something, but they're not making anything, you know, they're just like, kind of, thinking about making something, or talking about making it, and everyone always, kind of, says to me, in my sessions, because I'm like, whatever, you know, like, trying to lead it to my taste, but like, what does it feel like, you know, like, what do you want it to sound like, whatever? I just find that, like, the worst question ever, because I don't know.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  If I knew, I'd have made it already, you know, or I'd be like, trying to explain it. But it became really apparent, as we started talking, that everyone just kept being like, oh, we'd play something, causing a guitar, some break on the drums, or whatever, and someone'd be like, oh, sounds so hopeful, you know? And it was like a thing of, if today was bad, tomorrow can be better, you know, not like a happiness or a sadness, but like, that kind of intersection between the two, and I think that's what kids give to you, you know, like, the heaviness of my day, or my life, or the adult experience, matched with like, this complete, like...

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Like innocent, feeling everything, highs and lows, but always like this. Like I watch my daughter all the time. She gets like, she'll be trying to like do something for a whole day. And she'll just fail over and over and over and over and over.

• 49:22Adam Buxton?

  How old is she now?

• 49:22Speaker 02

  She's one and a bit, like fourteen months. But she was trying to climb on a little chair and she small smack like full smack her head. I pick her up, take her to the other room and then like she'll just get straight off my lap and walk back to the chair and climb and do it again over and over. And it's like that belief that like I can't do it now, but I can, I will do it. Or like it's bad now, but I it will be better, you know?

• 49:43Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  And that is something that like, for me, I needed, which is why I made it, because I loved feeling like that. And it had been a long time since I'd felt like that, you know, so it was like to print it onto wax and be like. Even if I never feel like it again, you know, for my kids to go like, wow, when dad was like thirty. There was like a small pocket where he was just like, only hopeful, you know? Yeah, I mean.

• 50:05Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I mean, that was one of my dad's favorite virtues. I guess that's why I called my daughter Hope. Even though he himself could be very pessimistic and downbeat. I think he was also tortured by um. The idea that it might be a sort of form of self-delusion, you know, you have.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:25Adam Buxton?

  You got, you got some of those downbeat philosophers like Nietzsche or whatever, who'll tell you that. Actually, it's just a form of denial and delusion and it's better to come to terms with how crappy the world is.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  I just think it's like, you know, how fine at the time we have and, you know, what we do that that like. Cause a lot of people, you know, said to me always it's like delusional to be hopeful, right? And I think for sure, probably, but like it works out a lot better if I approach the same. When I approach a situation and go, probably gonna fuck this up, I always, always fuck it up, yes? But if I approach it going like, I don't know, I feel like I could kind of smash this. Sometimes I fuck it up and go, no way, I really thought I was gonna smash it or. More often than not, you do better because you're kind of going into it going like, kind of, there's something there. I've got a bit of, you know? That's how guys win Champions League final or whatever, because there's, there's no way, especially with sport, that it's not down to luck.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  But that little extra feeling of belief, you know, like in Harry Potter, when, I don't know if you've seen Harry Potter, but there's this thing called Liquid Luck. They have, which I always was so interested in as a kid. It's like a little vial with luck in it.

• 51:28Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Drink it and you get luck, right? And so he says to his friend, like, I've given it to you. And then instantly his friend, Ron Weasley, is like, I'm gonna, he's going to play like a Quidditch match. And he goes out to play this match and with like, he's like unbelievable, plays the best game of his life. And then at the end, Harry Potter's like, oh, I didn't actually give it to you. And it's true though, because you, as soon as you think something is on your side, you're on your side, you know? And I, I think that's the thing that people miss. It's like, the hope is not so much the universe aligning or whatever, but it's just those little bits where you would give up. You kind of go, no, I'll just, I'll, I'll have two more tries, you know, or I'll stay here for ten more minutes and maybe a fish will come or whatever, you know?

• 52:06Adam Buxton?

  Exactly. And the fact is that you can kind of make your own luck. You are.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:13Adam Buxton?

  The.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 52:14Adam Buxton?

  Author of your luckiness. And that's the thing I could never get my head around as a kid. And my dad would say things like that to me.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:21Adam Buxton?

  And I'd be like, what are you on about? You can't make luck. Luck is something that happens to you. That's the definition of luck.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 52:28Adam Buxton?

  But you can, because you can put yourself in the right headspace, you can make yourself available to good fortune.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can show up. You know, you're never gonna be lucky just sat in a flat all day, you know, like, you know?

• 52:41Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, that's the point of the kind of positive philosophy as opposed to closing yourself down from everything. I always think of John Lennon saying that. You know, he went to the Indica Gallery to see an exhibition by Yoko Ono and she had a piece with a. Step ladder and a magnifying glass and you would go to the top of the step ladder and she had written something on the ceiling in tiny letters. And you would stand on the top of the step ladder and look with a magnifying glass at what she'd written. And she'd just written, yes. And John Lennon said, if she'd written no, he would have left the gallery and that would have been it. He wouldn't have got it together. But he just, at that moment. I mean, it's so, it's sort of trite, I guess, isn't it? But at the same time, that always spoke to me. And I just thought, yeah, I mean, you're either.

• 53:25Adam Buxton?

  Someone who's gonna go up and go. Uh, it says yes, how lame.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:31Adam Buxton?

  Or you're gonna go, yes, here we go, come on.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. And I think, what do you lose by approaching it like that? You know, like all of my, like, the people I know that are negative, or like, are like pessimistic or whatever, and say that's the way to be. It's not working out, you know what I mean? It's not like, it's not like I go, fuck, your life is so much better because you think everything's shit, you know what I mean?

• 53:51Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  And I think in honesty, like, in a sad way, a lot of them, like, don't know how. And actually, I envy us of, of, of hope, you know, I know I have been in times when I haven't had it, you know, and like, I think it's true of a lot of people, people who kind of agree, like align to a form of like pessimism. In a way, you're kind of like, it's ea-, it's a lot easier, isn't it? You know, to be like, god, this sucks, you know?

• 54:13Adam Buxton?

  I mean, they're often the ones that want things to work out most of all.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. And maybe too afraid, because, you know, in a way, it's like you're scared of wanting something and not getting it.

• 54:21Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  But the thing that's scarier to me is like, not wanting anything, you know, or not believing you could get anything. Because then you're not gonna get anything ever. That's the scarier thing to me is to not, to not, to not, to not want any, you know? To like, expect nothing to work out. Because even like, sometimes the best part of it, like, isn't the moment where it happens, but it's like in bed the night before. And you're kind of picturing it happening and living in it, or you know, like, just the little dreams that you have of things that you wanna happen that might never happen. Maybe it'll work out. And even if it never does, like, just the fun of that thirty minutes, you know? Before I fall asleep is kind of enough, you know?

• 54:55Adam Buxton?

  That's true. I still remember fondly the fantasies I had that Tom Hanks and I would become best friends on the podcast.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 55:04Adam Buxton?

  It wasn't to be.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Never were, no.

• 55:06Adam Buxton?

  But that was, that was still a happy time.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but do you know what I mean? And almost sometimes it's better, you know? Because you could have become friends, really good friends with him, and then he could have like, you know, asked you for a kidney or something crazy, you know what I mean?

• 55:18Adam Buxton?

  I would have given it to him.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  True.

• 55:20Adam Buxton?

  Just for, you know, Cast Away.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. Captain Phillips.

• 55:25Adam Buxton?

  Captain Phillips. I haven't seen that for a while.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  I'm the captain now. Apparently, they never met, those two guys, until, until that scene. They kept them separate. So when he says I'm the captain, it's the first time he's being like, this is my fucking movie.

• 55:39Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Tom Hanks. Brilliant.

• 55:42Adam Buxton?

  Is that your favourite Tom Hanks film?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's the one I remember the most, I think, because it was like visceral. And also the guy, the guy cast as the pirate, I thought he was brilliant, you know.

• 55:50Adam Buxton?

  He's amazing.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  I thought he was fucking amazing and and it didn't feel like they were. It felt like a film where, you know, you would usually the bad guy is usually someone, you know. I don't really believe in minority because like it depends where you are in the world, who's the minority, right? But like from a Western gaze, an ethnic minority, like there's always so much stereotype. And there's no nuance to why they're going through what they're going through. I love that, like, at least you kind of were like, because I was basically watching it going, I hope, I hope they do get away. You know, like, I hope they get it all and get out. I hope no one dies. But I hope that he like sails off into the sunset with like this little submarine and makes loads of cash.

• 56:25Adam Buxton?

  The Somali guys.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I kind of, I kind of wanted, I kind of wanted it to work out for everyone, you know? I watched it a long time ago though, so maybe I'm remembering it badly. So if you're listening and I'm coming across like a fucking dickhead, then I'm sorry.

• 56:38Adam Buxton?

  You love terrorists.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  There you go. That's the bite. I knew it was coming.

• 56:44Adam Buxton?

  No, but I know exactly what you mean. At first you were sort of, yeah, you were really willing them to like.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  I think you just understand.

• 56:51Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  In a way, like, is that they have nothing? And you never get to see the people who have nothing, have nothing. You just see them being bad. Bad people are bad because, well, they're not even bad, but people do good or bad things depending on where they're at, you know? If you've got absolutely fuck all and you see a big ship going past every day that has everything, surely you're gonna go get some of it.

• 57:12Adam Buxton?

  Plus, Tom Hanks is the captain.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Tom Hanks is the captain and he's like a lovely guy who's kind of got like a bit of a smackable face. You're thinking, do you know what? I'll just, I'll just, whatever. I'll take your stuff.

• 57:21Adam Buxton?

  I spoke to a guy called Michael Scott Moore on this podcast and he wrote a book. About being captured by Somali pirates.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 57:29Adam Buxton?

  And he was the person who introduced me, I think, to the concept of not trusting hope. Because he was.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 57:40Adam Buxton?

  He was their prisoner for several years.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 57:43Adam Buxton?

  And he reached a point where he thought, actually, it's gonna do me more harm to carry on being hopeful.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 57:50Adam Buxton?

  Just, you know.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:52Adam Buxton?

  Just for the sake of self-preservation to get through his days, it was beginning to torture him to be hopeful. And he needed to make peace with the idea that he might never be freed.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Isn't, in a way, is that not like kind of?

• 58:06Speaker 02

  I don't know, maybe think about Nelson Mandela, obviously, you know, like in a cell and like being so stripped from everything and still maintaining this like love of self or hope, you know, hope of release and but I wonder if even in that, even by obviously not being hopeful that you'll be released. But there is like a hope in a separate way, maybe I'm clutching a little bit, but like

• 58:26Adam Buxton?

  Clutch your way.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  Of like trusting yourself that like actually to go. This will make me feel better. Do you know what I mean? Like if if I'm a bit more realistic about this, I'm gonna feel better about this than if I feel hopeful. Which is kind of hope, because you're kind of hoping that this will make you feel better.

• 58:41Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? In a way, like

• 58:43Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  There's still this kind of thing where you're you might not like the hope as a as a like a literal theme is maybe gone. But the hope of like God, I feel bad now. And if I do this for a couple of weeks, maybe this whole ship thing will actually be a breeze.

• 58:58Adam Buxton?

  Well, that's a very positive view of humanity, isn't it? Just the fact that the fundamental urge to make the best of a situation or to survive.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:07Adam Buxton?

  Is in itself a a form of a hopeful act.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  I think so, because to be to like, because he could have killed himself. You know what I mean? Well, maybe I don't, you know what I mean? Like to be to do something to make your time on the planet more palatable to me is hopeful because you're going, it's worth being here, you know? It wasn't like this is so bad that I, you know, I'm a, I don't know.

• 59:26Adam Buxton?

  Sure, like

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Maybe I'm clutching, but that

• 59:28Adam Buxton?

  Well, let's talk about this after we've been captured by terrorists. For three years or whatever.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  True, true, true, true.

• 59:34Adam Buxton?

  And see how that works out. But anyway, I think it's when I saw the title of your album, I thought, yes. Yes, please. That's what I want.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 59:45Adam Buxton?

  I don't want a big slice of nihilism. Thank you very much.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Wait. This is an ad for Squarespace. Okay, we'll return to the AI apocalypse in just a wee wee moment, but first I wanted to talk about Squarespace. Do you know about Squarespace, Steve? Uh, yes, Monty. I think I might even be a little bit more tuned into modern tech, websites, et cetera, than you. I don't know, just guessing. Oh, Steve, I love this dynamic. I'm old and conservative, and you're young and progressive, and that's what makes the Newswind podcast such great listening. But yes, you're right, I must admit, I didn't know much about Squarespace. But because my new grumble book, Hell in a Handcart, is out this month- And I look forward to getting enraged by that! So I should hope. Em, um, em, um. Anyway, the publishers, Bluestar and Dogwhistle, made a beautiful website for the book using Squarespace. I know, I got the newsletter that you sent out using Squarespace, and the website

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  does look great. Videos of you airing your views, members' areas for your mad fans. You've even got a merch store, I see. That's right, a Union Jack top hat is a big seller. But they constructed it all so fast with Squarespace. They did most of it over one lunchtime, Steve. Well, you wouldn't want to spend much longer on it, would you? Shut up, Steve. But here's the thing, anyone listening to this can start a free trial right now at squarespace.com/boxton and see how easy and versatile Squarespace is. And when they're ready to launch a new website or domain, they can save 10% off their first purchase by using the offer code BOXTON at checkout. Right, well, maybe I'll visit squarespace.com/boxton and start a new website just to refute all the nonsense in your new book. Oh, don't do that, Steve. I will. Oh, shut up, Steve. Uh. Shut up. Now, back to more depressing matters on Newswind.

• 1:01:24Adam Buxton?

  Continue.

• 1:01:35Adam Buxton?

  Hey, welcome back, podcast. That was Loyal Kana, although now I think of him more as Ben. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. And his album is great, the new album, I loved it. It's got some definite indie rock vibes. Reminded me a bit of King Kruel sometimes. That same slightly woozy, hot afternoon, dreamlike atmosphere, which I think Loyal Kana does so well. I might even go so far as to say it's better than my single, Pizza Time, which came out last week, of course. Thank you very much,

• 1:02:19Adam Buxton?

  by the way, if you have been listening to Pizza Time.

• 1:02:24Adam Buxton?

  Every stream takes me one step closer to playing on Graham Norton. Anyway, thanks if you listen to it. And also if you pre-ordered my album Buckle Up, out on the 12th of September, I sent out a newsletter last week about it. And if you aren't signed up for the newsletter and would like to be, I mean, I say the newsletter as if it comes out regularly, well, there's been two this year, which is unusual. I don't send out too many of those things. But I guess this is an unusual year for me. I've got more um, stuff plopping out than I would normally.

• 1:03:05Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, if you'd like to receive any further newsletters about upcoming shows and that sort of thing, then go to my website, adam-buxton.co.uk, there's a link in the description. And if you scroll down on the homepage, you'll find somewhere where you can sign up for the newsletter, if you wish.

• 1:03:27Adam Buxton?

  Ah, look, it's Techno Bird.

• 1:03:32Adam Buxton?

  Hopping above the field. I talked about Techno Bird on the podcast I did recently with Russell Howard, which I think is out now. Five brilliant things, one of which was the Skylark. That was fun. And I think the Harry Hill podcast is also out. A lot of buckles, maybe too much. Next weekend as well, I'm going to be on Virgin Radio, filling in for lovely Tom Allen, the comedian, friend of the podcast, that was a nice episode I did with Tom back in the lockdown. Anyway, he's taking a break for a couple of weeks. So I'm covering one of his shows on Sunday, the 8th of June, between 10 and 1 on Virgin

• 1:04:17Adam Buxton?

  Radio. And I think Joe Cornish is going to come along and be my guest for an hour or two. I imagine there'll be some book talk.

• 1:04:28Adam Buxton?

  And other nonsense, hope you can join me for that. Thank you very much indeed if you came out to the Hay Festival last week. Over in Wales, I was on stage with Samira Ahmed. And we had a good talk about the book. While the wind raged outside, it was very stormy that day. And I couldn't figure out if the audience could actually hear anything. The lighting rig was swinging around in front of the stage. It was fairly apocalyptic, but fun. And afterwards, I signed books for an hour. Thanks for coming. Loyal Kana though, there's lots of links for Loyal in the description of today's podcast.

• 1:05:13Adam Buxton?

  You've got more info on the album, plus tour dates. There's the video for his recent single About Time. There's that Otulengi video, It's a Peach. There's the Baby Jake song, Do Do Dee. There's Baby Shark, of course, in case, like me, you somehow managed to miss that phenomenon. Look at Techno Bird swooping down there over the field. It's got something yummy. There's also a link to that clip of John Waters. Adults need to stop blaming their parents. It's only a short clip.

• 1:05:52Adam Buxton?

  And as well as a link to the Baby Shark video, there's a link to the podcast I mentioned, which is on BBC Sounds, Real Survival Stories, Grizzly Bear Attack. It's pretty epic, but it is grizzly in every conceivable sense of the word. So be warned. All right, that's it for this week. Got to get back to signing books. Thank you to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Thank you so much, Seamus. Thanks to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork. Thanks to everyone at Acast for all their help liaising with my sponsors.

• 1:06:32Adam Buxton?

  But thanks particularly to you for listening to the single, for buying the book, for coming to the shows. I don't know, maybe not all of you did those things. That's okay, because you listened right to the end. And I'm very grateful, which is why I think it's time we had a creepy hug. Come here, hey.

• 1:06:56Speaker 03

  Great to see you.

• 1:06:58Adam Buxton?

  Alright. Go carefully out there.

• 1:07:02Adam Buxton?

  And, until next time, please bear in mind, for what it's worth, I love you. Bye!

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice take a punch when me bums up. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice take a punch when me bums up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Please like and subscribe. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice take a punch when me bums up. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up. Nice take a punch when me bums up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.