868: The State of JavaScript

Wes and Scott talk about the State of JavaScript survey, tends, popular features, and the evolving landscape of tools and frameworks. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 00:27 Brought to you by Sentry.io 01:16 The state of JavaScript Twitter fantasy football 02:27 Syntax features The State of JavaScript survey 05:27 Logical assignment 07:49 Strings 08:18 Arrays 14:16 Sets 2025 New Years resolution: use maps and sets more and objects / arrays less. 16:10 Browser APIs 22:50 Library tiers list 27:21 Upgrading from M1 Mac Chris Coyier - M4 30:08 Front-end frameworks 32:18 The top front-end frameworks used at work 33:49 What is the highest paying framework? 35:01 Meta frameworks 36:32 Meta frameworks pain points 42:33 Testing tools 43:58 Build tools 44:41 Most used libraries 46:33 Back-end frameworks 48:34 JavaScript runtimes 50:35 Serverless runtimes 51:25 Other languages people are using 52:49 AI tools 53:37 The State of JS Awards 57:18 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs Sick Picks Wes: Headted Vest Scott: Super Mario Party Jamboree Shameless Plugs Syntax YouTube Channel Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Wes Bos?

  Welcome to Syntax. Today, we've got the State of JS, the State of JavaScript. This is a survey that goes out every single year. And what we like to do is kind of go through it and get an idea of where is the industry at? It's always interesting to take a look at what are people actually using? What are people building with? What is sort of coming up on the horizon? It gives you a nice little look on into it. So we're going to check it out. This is the State of JS survey at stateofjs.com. Real quick, before we get into it, let's talk about Sentry at sentry.io/syntax. Sentry is going to help you figure out errors on your website, any performance slowdowns, and help you fix issues on that. So if you've got a slow website, whether that's something on the client side,

• 0:44Wes Bos?

  whether that's a database query that is abnormally slow, you know, sometimes, oh, this database query is being fine, but all of a sudden, boom, this is taking three seconds to actually run. Might be something going on there. Session replay, really cool, which gives you a video-like replay of what the user was doing to hit a specific bug, as well as code coverage. Now, it gives you some stats on, are your tests covering all of your codes? Check it out, sentry.io/syntax. All right, let's take a look at State of JS. First thing we have here on the left is libraries.

• 1:17Scott Tolinski?

  Sorry, Wes. Before we get into the actual State of JS, can I tell you about the State of JavaScript Twitter Fantasy Football?

• 1:24Wes Bos?

  Uh, no. Yes, tell me.

• 1:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, I know you don't care about fantasy football or football for general.

• 1:31Wes Bos?

  No, no. Last thing I would like to hear about. I would rather play a board game.

• 1:35Scott Tolinski?

  I don't think the audience cares either, but I just want to say, for record here, I am terrible at fantasy football. I lose every time, and I lose specifically because I only pick Detroit Lions. Well, let me tell you, I joined a fantasy football league with like Ken Wheeler-type craft, you know, Ian Landsman, Adam from Terminal, a bunch of JavaScript dudes. And I won. I won the whole thing. I won the championship. I won the playoffs. I never get anything other than last place in fantasy football. And I just want to take this second to say, I won the whole dang thing. So that is the State of JavaScript Fantasy Football for anybody who cares. And I just want to say, the Lions, the Lions propelled me to an epic victory overall.

• 2:17Scott Tolinski?

  And I'm just going to take that minute to gloat for any of the, any of the, the folks in the league who are listening to this episode. So thank you. All right. Let's get into the actual stuff here.

• 2:27Wes Bos?

  All right, let's start off with the features, specifically syntax features. Which of these syntax features have you used? 85% of people using nullish coalescing. And nullish coalescing is really cool. If you haven't used it before is if you have a variable that is possibly null or undefined, you can use the double question mark to sort of provide a fallback. That is better than using a ternary, ternary? I can never say it. Ternary, which will detect if something is falsy. And the difference between null and undefined and falsy values is that zero, empty string, several others are also falsy, which is often not what you want.

• 3:12Wes Bos?

  So nullish coalescing, it seems like almost everybody's using it, which is really cool.

• 3:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I like nullish coalescing. I like to use it. You know, I do find myself oftentimes just doing the double ampersand instead, but I do use nullish coalescing. Dynamic imports, surprisingly, a lot of people using dynamic imports, which I don't find myself using that much for some reason, even though I thought that I would before dynamic imports are a thing, where that import is a way to do a non-static import and that you're doing the import somewhere within the JavaScript, not at the top of the file and you're not, as a promise to import that code.

• 3:49Wes Bos?

  I'm redoing my website right now and I have to use dynamic imports to import the markdown for each of the files. And the reason I need to do that is because I'm using NextJS and I need like a listing of all the blog posts, like initially, right? So what I do is I run a big loop and I just run through and import every single file in there. And it's a pain. Dynamic imports are really tricky because like partially because like when you deploy something to a serverless environment by the import tree, they will figure out which pieces are needed and they'll try to take the rest out and tree shake it. But with dynamic import, they have to try to figure out

• 4:34Wes Bos?

  Oh, you're going to need this not at build time, but on demand. So that's a trick. Figure out which parts you need. And if the name, the part of your dynamic import is like a variable, then it gets a little bit tricky and it's like webpack hell all the way down. So try to avoid dynamic imports if you can. It's not, of course, it's not always totally possible because you don't know those things or the thing is much larger and you don't want to have to import it until you need it.

• 5:02Scott Tolinski?

  And number three on here is private fields and classes. This is a class based thing. You know what? Since I've started using classes more often, I'm using private fields. I'm using this. So I'm on here as somebody who's added classes to their, their skill base, I guess. I don't know. I use classes now.

• 5:17Wes Bos?

  Classy guy, Scott.

• 5:18Scott Tolinski?

  I'm classy. I got classy and I like my private properties. So I use this feature, which I wouldn't have said last year. New year, new me, right?

• 5:27Wes Bos?

  Logical assignment. Oh, I don't know that. I've, I've used this before.

• 5:32Scott Tolinski?

  Let me tell you, I had the same reaction.

• 5:33Wes Bos?

  Pipe, pipe equals. So logical assignment is if something is a falsy, which we just talked about, right? So their example is if a variable title is empty, then you can do pipe, pipe equals, and that will set the default to 10.

• 5:52Scott Tolinski?

  That's interesting.

• 5:53Wes Bos?

  I have never seen that. Man, I feel like I'm pretty dialed on this stuff too.

• 5:58Scott Tolinski?

  Same. Yeah.

• 5:59Wes Bos?

  Wow. What's the, the browser support for that? Um, here, I guess I could open it here. Can I use logical assignment?

• 6:08Scott Tolinski?

  Full support, Ben. 95%.

• 6:11Wes Bos?

  It's been in every browser for a long time. Wow. I'm very surprised I had never heard about. That's why I love going through these things is because even folks like us whose, whose job it is to stay on top of the stuff. There's, there's things you never come, come around. A hashbang grammar, 20% of people using it. This is the ability to provide a path to a specific JavaScript interpreter. So like if you were to run like a, a JavaScript file from the command line, you can, instead of saying node run dot TS, you can just put the, uh, uh, environment up at the top. I don't know. That's more for like, I, every now and then I've used that, but that's more for like C and, and bash scripts.

• 6:55Scott Tolinski?

  Yep. And the next one here, error dot cause, which allows you to specify the origin of the cause of the error. And I didn't use this either. I'm interested in this, but I have not used this. Their example is when they're throwing a new error inside of a catch, they're saying that the cause is of the initial error. So that way you can, it's not like you're throwing an entirely, I mean, you are throwing a new error, but you're saying it originates from this other error, which I think is interesting.

• 7:21Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I definitely need that because half the time, like you, you get a stack trace and the stack trace is showing you where the error was logged. And it's like, no, I want to know where the error was, was initially thrown. I know you caught it, so you could provide some nice, nice use case for that, but I need to, I'm, I'm sure the folks at Sentry are really happy with this one.

• 7:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Well, since the, since we started doing async await and try catching everything, it's like, it feels more necessary.

• 7:50Wes Bos?

  Ah, string features, replace all, that's a, that's a killer one, right? Match all, that's a killer one as well. And match indices, this will store the start and end positions of each matched capture group.

• 8:05Scott Tolinski?

  Have not used this, but that sounds useful. That sounds useful to me.

• 8:09Wes Bos?

  What is, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I've used this where you can get the pieces of the matched array.

• 8:16Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 8:17Wes Bos?

  Oh, I like that.

• 8:18Scott Tolinski?

  Likewise, array features, we have, you know, it's so funny. We see these bars go all the way to right and you think, oh, a lot of people must use this, but it's only 40% of people who have responded actually use this. Array dot two sorted. I have not used two sorted. Um, I know you, you've talked about it before. Uh, it's, it's basically the same as sort without mutating the original array. I, I pretty much always just use sort, but uh, two sorted seems like much more up my alley considering most of the array methods I use are, you know, non-destructive.

• 8:47Wes Bos?

  So I was working on my, my website and I had a array of blog posts. And every time I saved the file, it would reverse the blog posts. I was like, what the hell is going on? And it's because I was. Taking the array and sorting it based on whatever we had, but it would just every, every single time it was actually mutating the original array. So anytime you do something that needs to be deterministic, it should be like what's called like a pure function, meaning that like you always get the same result every single time. So dot to sorted is, I would go as far to say just use dot to sorted by default,

• 9:27Wes Bos?

  because you shouldn't be mutating your original data unless you explicitly want to. So use all of the immutable methods on an array. And so another example is splice. Splice will modify the original array, whereas slice will not. So now we have dot to splice, which is number four. Only 20% of people using it.

• 9:52Scott Tolinski?

  Cool. Yeah. You know what? I never think about these for some reason. I just always use, because it's like you have so much, you know, mental, I don't know. It's the way I've always done it, right?

• 10:03Wes Bos?

  Yeah, yeah, you just know.

• 10:05Scott Tolinski?

  Sort and splice. It's like, well, now I gotta remember these other ones even exist. But it makes sense. Definitely.

• 10:12Wes Bos?

  Number two is find last. This will allow you to search an array beginning at the end. So previously you would first reverse the array and then find it. So that's, that's really handy. To reverse will reverse it. Array dot width will, I did a video on this and now I'm blanking on what it is. Returns a new array with the element at a given index. Oh, so it's like.

• 10:37Scott Tolinski?

  Value. Yeah.

• 10:38Wes Bos?

  Yeah. So you can, how is that different than?

• 10:43Scott Tolinski?

  I, you know what? Here's what I would do in the same situation. I would create a new array first and then I would then replace the item at that index with the classic style. And I don't know that this, I didn't know this existed. So yeah, what makes it better? Is it a shorthand? It's probably just a shorthand, but still.

• 11:00Wes Bos?

  No, it's not. It's, it's the mutating versus splicing. So here, let, let me open up my.

• 11:06Scott Tolinski?

  But what I would do, like I said, is I would create a new.

• 11:08Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. Here, let's, let's do a quick example right here. So cause people is equal to, hey, look at this. I already got one in my, my dev tools here. So we have Scott, we have Wes and we have Snickers.

• 11:26Wes Bos?

  And we have sunny. I always go for these, right?

• 11:30Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I do too, yeah.

• 11:31Wes Bos?

  So we have people dot with two and three. That gives you two, three and oh. What? Oh.

• 11:42Scott Tolinski?

  It's swapping the the second.

• 11:43Wes Bos?

  This is a replacement, not a slice. Okay, so that's really handy if you want to replace an item of an array. Versus having to take it like Scott just said, take a copy and replace that item or spread everything before.

• 11:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Wes Bos?

  Put the one in you want and spread it after. Man, I can't. Literally have a video on this and I was like blanking on what that was for. That's good.

• 12:07Scott Tolinski?

  There's too many features. We're getting too much stuff. It's all great. Yeah.

• 12:12Wes Bos?

  And array dot from a sync is similar to array dot from, but for a sync integrators. That's really handy. If you've ever tried to take an array that is a generator. And you're just like, I don't, I don't care about this next, next, next done thing. I just want an array of the actual values. From a sync is gonna be handy for that.

• 12:35Scott Tolinski?

  async features, you know, number four on this list with only 13 people responding have using, which is 0.1% is top level await. No, I'm surprised by that. I've used top level await.

• 12:46Wes Bos?

  13 people?

• 12:47Scott Tolinski?

  13 people.

• 12:48Wes Bos?

  Probably was written in.

• 12:50Scott Tolinski?

  Ah, yeah, maybe. I use top level await this year. It's not super well supported. It's kind of obnoxious sometimes. It causes Safari to lose its mind. I will tell you, there is a longstanding bug about Safari and top level await. And it's just like, hmm, pretty much makes using it not so much fun in certain situations. So. Yeah, top level await. Yeah, it does say it's supported, but hey, man, I couldn't get it to work no matter what I did.

• 13:15Wes Bos?

  Really?

• 13:16Scott Tolinski?

  With Safari. Safari specifically, there's a, there's a, there's an open issue about it on GitHub and there's not a whole lot you can do.

• 13:22Wes Bos?

  The funny thing about a lot of this stuff is people will be like, oh, I've been using it for forever. And people don't realize that the bundler is actually doing a lot of the heavy lifting under the hood. Like, I see this with NextJS users all the time. People are like, I've been using ESM for 100 years and I can use all these features. And NextJS is still CommonJS. NextJS is, is, compiles everything to CommonJS. And you, you think it looks like you're using ESM, but you're actually not.

• 13:50Scott Tolinski?

  What I would like is top level await support in Svelte for like async components. That would be nice. That's something that I would like. But yeah, I think, I think that's a feature that people will start to use.

• 14:02Wes Bos?

  Totally.

• 14:03Scott Tolinski?

  You know, it makes modules really nice to await things without having to create a function and run that function. So yeah, top level await feature that I would like to see better supported and, you know, better used throughout just the general landscape. There's a lot of new features for sets, which I, I can't say that I've used any of these this year. Set dot union, set dot intersection, set dot difference. I don't think I've used a ton of sets this year. But, you know, CJ released a video about.

• 14:30Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 14:31Scott Tolinski?

  You should be using sets and maps. And it's a really good video. So I need to watch it three or four more times before I like reach for sets every time. And we've talked about them enough on this show, but it's one of those things where like my brain just doesn't go there enough, you know?

• 14:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 14:47Scott Tolinski?

  I don't know about you. Yeah.

• 14:48Wes Bos?

  Stop yourself. Next time you make an array, stop yourself, make a set instead. Because a set is like an array, however, it has a bunch of really nice features around it, right? They, they can dedupe themselves. And now there is this whole swath of almost like low dash type methods for checking if data is similar to another piece of data and seeing if things are inside of each other. You might not be working on these types of apps, but anyone who's doing like. Data-heavy stuff, you've you've got lots of arrays of of either numbers or comments or things like that, or sort of data visualization.

• 15:30Wes Bos?

  These things are a massive, massive improvement. Even the symmetric difference. Have you ever had two arrays of data and you needed to figure out what items are in both of them and which items are are not in these ones, you know? Or or you have like a whole list of possible values and then you have your your actual values and you say, OK, which ones are not in this array? You know, it's it's kind of annoying because you have to like take the first array and filter it down for all the items that are not in it. You have these sort of nested finds.

• 16:07Scott Tolinski?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 16:08Wes Bos?

  Makes it a million times. Yeah.

• 16:10Scott Tolinski?

  I have a fun thing we want to do here for the browser API section. The browser API section, beyond the amount of percentages of people that have used these things. Let's go from the top to the bottom and we'll each say if we've used these in the in 2024. So did you use WebSockets in 2024?

• 16:27Wes Bos?

  I sure did. I hooked it up to my receipt printer.

• 16:32Scott Tolinski?

  Exactly. Progressive web apps. I'm raising my hand.

• 16:35Wes Bos?

  Absolutely, yes.

• 16:37Scott Tolinski?

  Geolocation. I did use geolocation.

• 16:40Wes Bos?

  I believe so. You know what's wild is I went back to some of my old demos where I did geolocation and I built like a speedometer with it. And like that was that was 15 years ago that I built that. Like, it's been in the browser for a long time.

• 16:56Scott Tolinski?

  Geez. And yeah, not that many people. I mean, when you it's one of those things, when you need it, you need it, but you don't always need it. Web animations, Wappy. I use Wappy. I put it in some of my demos. Yeah.

• 17:07Wes Bos?

  I don't think I did. I just use the, what's the new CSS?

• 17:13Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, view transitions.

• 17:15Wes Bos?

  View transitions API. That's not considered web animations, is it?

• 17:18Scott Tolinski?

  It's not. No.

• 17:19Scott Tolinski?

  The Web Animations API is like a JavaScript where you can specify a to and from and it interpolates

• 17:20Wes Bos?

  OK.

• 17:25Scott Tolinski?

  values for you. It's great. It's really nice. I use it actually to animate accordions with details. I've used it to animate dialogue elements, all kinds of stuff with a library. WebGL. I've used WebGL, but not directly. I've used a library that used WebGL for me.

• 17:42Wes Bos?

  Yes. Yeah, I used it in a couple talks. I had a couple nice little kind of animations while I was doing the talk and what else did I use on? Oh, I built a 3D visualizer for, hold on. Depth Detection West Boss.

• 18:02Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, you did? AI depth detection. Oh, yeah. That was the coolest. Man.

• 18:08Wes Bos?

  I built this depth thing. So this is an AI model with Transformers JS and you feed it a JPEG. And what it does is it gives you out the other end a map where the black pixels are the furthest away and the white pixels are the closest to you. And then you can feed that

• 18:29Scott Tolinski?

  This image.

• 18:30Wes Bos?

  map or mesh. I forget what the word is for it, but yeah, here's basically the video of what I'm doing here. It's a depth map. Yeah. And then I pipe that into 3JS and that's how you can visualize the the depth of things, which is, it was very good. Like even like the basketball behind me on the shelf, it knew that it was slightly bigger. And like if I can do that in the browser with JavaScript, like imagine what these like self-driving cars have that are, they're using video for that.

• 19:06Scott Tolinski?

  Okay. Page visibility. Did not use that. If the page is open, I believe.

• 19:10Wes Bos?

  Yeah, like if you've tabbed away or you've minimized something, you can detect when somebody has done that. So I.

• 19:19Wes Bos?

  Did not use that.

• 19:21Scott Tolinski?

  Wasm. We use Wasm on the syntax site. I used it for text recognition. So used Wasm this year.

• 19:28Wes Bos?

  Heavily, yes.

• 19:29Scott Tolinski?

  I did not use WebRTC this year, even though I have in the past.

• 19:33Wes Bos?

  I don't believe I did either. I was pretty, when like the video stuff came out, I was into it. And then the web torrent was also built on WebRTC.

• 19:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Wes Bos?

  But I think that was, was it?

• 19:46Scott Tolinski?

  Web authentication. Did not use.

• 19:49Wes Bos?

  I was a user of it. I did not code anything with it, but that's the web authentication API is what pass keys are built on. And we had the, we had Anna Pablitz on episode 710.

• 20:00Scott Tolinski?

  Awesome episode.

• 20:01Wes Bos?

  Pass keys and the actual tech behind it.

• 20:04Scott Tolinski?

  Temporal. I use Temporal. It's the new date API. It's wonderful.

• 20:08Wes Bos?

  Very excited.

• 20:08Scott Tolinski?

  It's very exciting, which is funny. I forget who somebody was posting on Twitter being like, this is the thing that people are excited about? I'm like, yeah, I'm very excited about it. I've read a lot of date stuff and I don't want to write dates anymore.

• 20:20Wes Bos?

  Like, once Temporal hits, it's going to be a while before people really understand the benefit. I think it's going to be similar to like a CSS grid. People are not going to understand that this is such a killer feature that the browser has. Like, I still get comments every single day on some of my videos about CSS grid being like, so it's tables? So we had table. I'm like, no, we've been able to do this 100 years for tables. No, you don't understand the benefit of it. And I think Temporal is going to have the same thing where other languages don't have this amazing data API that we're going to be able to use. So I'm excited for it.

• 20:56Scott Tolinski?

  Broadcast channel API. What is that? I have not used that.

• 21:01Wes Bos?

  Broadcast channel allows you to message between multiple tabs or multiple windows of an application.

• 21:11Scott Tolinski?

  You used this, didn't you?

• 21:13Wes Bos?

  I actually didn't. So I did a, I have a YouTube video where I had like multiple. Windows open and I had my video streaming in and you could move the window anywhere you wanted. And it would draw lines between the windows. And everybody's like, you're using broadcast channel API. And you know what I was using? Local storage.

• 21:34Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I thought you were using broadcast.

• 21:36Wes Bos?

  Yeah, because local storage is shared between tabs, right?

• 21:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Wes Bos?

  All right. No, I haven't.

• 21:43Scott Tolinski?

  That's fun. The web speech API. I did use this. I've used this a couple of times. It's cool. There's a lot of, there's voices you can pick from. You can get it to synthesize speech for you. It's cool.

• 21:53Wes Bos?

  The web speech API, it's almost one of those things where it's, it was amazing when it first came out, but now with like 11 labs and whatever.

• 22:02Scott Tolinski?

  Sure.

• 22:03Wes Bos?

  It's like, oh, this is actually not very good anymore because I, I have a video where I, I had Ricky from Trailer Park Boys insulting me.

• 22:11Scott Tolinski?

  I had an app where a robot voice goes, 30 seconds. And that's pretty cool to me.

• 22:16Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 22:17Scott Tolinski?

  It just talked to me.

• 22:17Wes Bos?

  And you don't need internet connection for that. It just works.

• 22:21Scott Tolinski?

  I don't need Snoop Dogg to tell me that I have 30 seconds left. I can have a robot voice do it. The gamepad API, which allows you to connect video game controllers, have not used, but hey, that seems like something fun to play around with at least. The WebXR device API also did not use, but I should. I'm a big VR person, so I could see myself using the WebXR API to do something fun. And it's one of those things that's always on my list. Like, yeah, I should give this a try. I haven't done it.

• 22:50Wes Bos?

  All right, let's move into the library tiers list. This is kind of interesting. So the S tier, what does S tier even mean? It's so funny that like, we all just know this. Is this a meme or is this an actual like, like data science thing?

• 23:05Scott Tolinski?

  I'll tell you what, it's from video games. It's from specifically Japanese video games. It's like,

• 23:13Scott Tolinski?

  Special, super. It is funny because I don't remember, it's like, if it was like RPGs or something where you would get items being graded on and you'd have S as being the best. But it is, it is, it does originate from video games where S was the highest rank. Yeah.

• 23:30Wes Bos?

  So we have V, Vtest, V and Vtest are always just dominating these things.

• 23:35Scott Tolinski?

  I have an official answer here. S stands for SHU, which in Japanese means excellent. So that's where it comes from.

• 23:44Wes Bos?

  All right. So S tier, we got V, Vtest, Playwright, Astro, PNPM, ESBuild, Testing Library, and SvelteKit coming in. Absolutely everybody loving it.

• 23:55Scott Tolinski?

  I love all that stuff, except for maybe, yeah, I don't know. I like all that stuff. Yeah.

• 24:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to look at it. I'm a big fan of everything. Like, out of this list, I'm probably biggest on, I use Playwright quite a bit this year. Obviously V I use quite a bit. PNPM I've been on for a while. ESBuild under the hood. Obviously SvelteKit, we're big fans of.

• 24:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, big fans. The A tier, we got MockServiceWorker, which I used in the past before, which allows you to, as it says, it allows you to mock requests with a service worker. So that way it doesn't actually hit a server. It's great for testing. That's, that's the context in which I've used it before. Svelte, VueJS, SWC, which is a bundler? SWC or no, oh, stale? No. I, I know there's SWC, SWV, like all these things. I don't even know anymore with the SW.

• 24:49Wes Bos?

  SWC is the bundler, speedy web compiler. Yeah, SWC is the Rust-based, like, I guess, like bundler or parser. And it's used by Next, Parcel, Dino. I'm assuming this is used in TurboPak. I'm assuming that that's what this is under the hood. It's kind of similar to, RV uses ESBuild and Rollup and Parcel and Dino use SWC.

• 25:19Scott Tolinski?

  I'm more of a fan of SWV for people out there who like 90's R&B.

• 25:25Wes Bos?

  B tier. Let's, let's pick a couple of our favorites from, from the B tier.

• 25:30Scott Tolinski?

  Turbo repo. Surprise that it's in B tier. You know what? I resisted using Turbo repo because I just felt like I didn't need it. Like, what is this doing for me? And then I used it. I'm like, oh, wait, this actually solves all of my annoyances with mono repos and orchestrating build commands and dev commands and stuff. So, yeah.

• 25:48Wes Bos?

  I think that stuff's hard regardless. No matter how good the tools are, some of these mono repo stuff is, is tricky, you know, tricky to get set up. So it's probably why it's in B tier because it's, it's a fantastic piece of, uh, piece of equipment. Turbo pack also in there. So I've been moving my site to NextJS and I've gone back and forth from the web pack to Turbo pack several times and it is stable now, but there's still a whole bunch of gotchas that I've, I've hit along the way.

• 26:21Scott Tolinski?

  Electron, surprisingly in here. You know, you only hear people talk negatively about Electron. Every time I've used it, it's been more than fine. You know, it's one of those libraries that people complain about, but in the same regard, it's super handy and useful. So, you know, little surprise that Sentiment put it in B.

• 26:39Wes Bos?

  The benefit of being able to write desktop apps in JavaScript, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, like frigging VS Code, Discord, all of these things are Electron based is amazing. Obviously, the downside to that is there's a huge node bundle that comes along with it, right? These, these Electron apps can be very large and can be memory hungry, but I think, I think as these processors get faster, like it's, I know I have a very fast computer, but it's, it's not really an issue as these computers get so much faster and as the processors and as you get more memory on your devices.

• 27:21Scott Tolinski?

  Speaking of, when are you going to upgrade again?

• 27:25Wes Bos?

  I don't know, man. Like, my M1 has been, is like, really fast. I'm kinda tempted to do it because of some of the, the video editing speed stuff.

• 27:35Scott Tolinski?

  Chris Quayle had a really convincing blog post the other day, why he upgraded. It was just that, like, his M1 still rules, but the, the video stuff was enough to make him go there. I, I still, I'm, I think I will hold out for one more iteration. Or I'll hold out until they get rid of the notch. The first one without the notch, why? Unless it's next year, then I'll buy it.

• 27:59Wes Bos?

  Yeah, or they put a webcam in the middle of the screen or something like that. Yeah, I, I think, like, it's crazy to say that, like, if you're just a developer and you're not doing video.

• 28:10Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:10Wes Bos?

  Maybe the M1, which is, what, three years old now, is

• 28:15Scott Tolinski?

  Cooks.

• 28:15Wes Bos?

  Is more than enough for what most people need.

• 28:18Scott Tolinski?

  It's super powerful. The fans never come on. It's a great laptop. But in the same regard, if I'm doing, like, some crazy masking, uh, stuff inside of DaVinci Resolve, it grinds to a halt. And I, I might like something that does not do that.

• 28:34Wes Bos?

  Isn't that cool, how as technology gets better, at a certain point, I guess, yeah, we're, we're happy with it. It, it's good enough. But now we're like, oh, what else can we do with it? You know, like, what video stuff that you was never possible before without a eight-hour render?

• 28:51Scott Tolinski?

  Totally.

• 28:51Wes Bos?

  Can we now do, you know?

• 28:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I know. I remember leaving my computer overnight just to have, like, a preview render and be like, alright, oh, it actually looks bad. Let me redo it and wait another eight hours. C-tier, Angular. You know, I think Angular gets a bad rap. I think it's cool. I don't use it, though, so maybe C-tier is fine.

• 29:09Wes Bos?

  Angular always gets destroyed in these things, and it's just that, I think it's because of most people taking this. It's a pretty heavy, modern React audience. And a lot of those people used Angular 10 years ago, and they're still. Bitter.

• 29:27Scott Tolinski?

  Or they didn't use it at all and just heard somebody say, oh, Angular bad.

• 29:31Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Scott Tolinski?

  You know, React good. And that's why, you know?

• 29:34Wes Bos?

  The lowest one, Cordova. I don't know a lot of people even use Cordova anymore. Gatsby. Kind of sad to see that go, but I think it's funny to see Astro, one of the highest, and Gatsby, one of the lowest. And I wonder if they are intentionally both purple because Astro's the spiritual successor to Gatsby.

• 29:55Scott Tolinski?

  It does feel like Gatsby could have become Astro, you know? Does feel like that. Yeah. Lerna, not surprising that it's this low. I don't like Lerna. Workspace has kind of solved all those problems, plus Turbo Repo, whatever. Yeah. So let's get into front-end frameworks over time and whether or not people like them are using them. There's different categories on this for usage, awareness, interest, retention, and positivity. I think positivity is an interesting one all the time where, you know, how people are feeling about. It's interesting that React has been over time since 2016 up until, up until 2023, React was still the most positive. And then Svelte passed it in 2023.

• 30:38Scott Tolinski?

  And then in 2024, Svelte and Vue passed it in terms of positivity. So sentiment of React, an 84% positivity in 2016, down to 69% positivity in 2024. So definitely an interesting trend. Not a sharp decline as Angular had from 2016 to 2019, a massive decline. But now it's got a little boat shape. Yeah.

• 31:07Wes Bos?

  Yeah, Angular popped up three, three notches from 10 to 7. That may just be because Lit, Preact, and Alpine have gone down. I'm surprised to see Alpine. I think that is probably more of an audience thing because I think Alpine is probably at its, at its peak. All the cool stuff Caleb is doing right now.

• 31:30Scott Tolinski?

  Totally. HTMX going down by 11% is, it's only surprising because I think, you know, when you first try HTMX, there's something magical about the simplicity. I really like the way it feels to use, but then when I need to do certain things, certain client-side things, if I'm not just loading like HTML from a server, then it's like, oh, that's the limitation. I think it's great for what it does, but I'm not surprised that people initially might try it and be like, oh, this is really cool. And then they hit the, oh, wait, I actually want to do more client-side stuff.

• 32:06Wes Bos?

  I'll just make this a server component. I know that it's not the same thing, but I think server components are close enough to what people want. And then the ability just to hop into a client component is, is pretty killer. In terms of what are people actually using at work? Not what do people love and what is hyped right now, but what are people getting paid to use? So tell me, what are the top five things that people are being, are using at work?

• 32:36Scott Tolinski?

  React.

• 32:37Wes Bos?

  Number one, at 67% of respondents using React.

• 32:44Scott Tolinski?

  React. Okay. And this is just front-end frameworks?

• 32:47Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 32:48Scott Tolinski?

  People are actually using at work, front-end frameworks. React, number one. I might put Vue.js at number two.

• 32:55Wes Bos?

  Yep. Nailed it. 31%.

• 32:58Scott Tolinski?

  Angular, number three?

• 33:00Wes Bos?

  Yep. Exactly. 28%. So it's, it's amazing. Angular is getting bullied in all of these things, but what are people actually using to build like business stuff? Angular.

• 33:12Scott Tolinski?

  But also it's been around for a while. So, hey.

• 33:14Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Or they're trapped in an 11-year-old Angular application.

• 33:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. No, number four is where it gets really tricky for me. You know, it could go a number of ways. I might even say... Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. I might say preact, but I don't know if that's.

• 33:32Wes Bos?

  Preact number six. Number four is svelte.

• 33:36Scott Tolinski?

  Okay.

• 33:37Wes Bos?

  So 11% of people are using svelte in, at work and production.

• 33:41Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, 11. That sounds right. You know what? I often hear people say like, oh, I wish I could use svelte at work, but I can't. And so that's maybe what I was basing on.

• 33:49Wes Bos?

  Sorry. One more question is, what is the highest paying framework out of it? So they, they give ranges. So tell me, what is the highest paying framework?

• 34:01Scott Tolinski?

  Angular.

• 34:03Wes Bos?

  Is surprisingly lit.

• 34:05Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, okay.

• 34:06Wes Bos?

  So average or, or 50th percentile, not average, $90,000. But the highest paying at the 90th percentile is preact.

• 34:18Scott Tolinski?

  Preact. Yeah. So it's interesting to me. That makes sense because they're more niche. You know, maybe lit might be used. I don't know if this is true, but they might be used more at Google. I could, you know, or those types of things. And same with like preact. Preact is one of those ones that you get into when you really need it. And like, if you need it, then somebody's got some specialty there. But also too, less respondents, right? And the less respondents there are, the, the, the higher likelihood of.

• 34:45Wes Bos?

  Yeah, yeah. Could just be one. The cool thing about state of JS is they have query builders for everything. So if you are, if you're like, well, I think this is pretty heavy React or I think it's whatever. Run, run the numbers, brother. You can do that.

• 35:01Scott Tolinski?

  If we go into meta frameworks, next to us, usage has gone down for the first time from 2023 to 20. It only went down 2%, but the trajectory before was pretty much going up and up.

• 35:15Wes Bos?

  Major up.

• 35:16Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Wes Bos?

  It was like 10% every year. And then this year it finally went down 2%. Which ones did go up though?

• 35:23Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, Felt Kit went down by 1% from last year.

• 35:26Wes Bos?

  Astro went way up.

• 35:28Scott Tolinski?

  Went way up, which is not surprising because Astro is a delight in a lot of ways. And it's, Astro is one of the only ones doing things different enough where you're like, oh, this is interesting. But that's just usage. If we get into positivity, NextJS went from 77% in 2022 all the way down to 50 something. It's, my mouse isn't letting me hover over it. 50 something percent in 2024. So that went down a lot in terms of positivity. Gatsby continuing to go down. What has increased in positivity? Astro. Increased in usage and in positivity is always such a great sign.

• 36:06Wes Bos?

  Everything else went down.

• 36:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that's such a good sign, though, in terms of like, more people are using it and more people like it. Like, that says a lot.

• 36:16Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's true. But what is it a sign of literally everything else went down in positivity? Do you think that's just the industry in general is a little bit overwhelmed or burnt out or?

• 36:27Scott Tolinski?

  Maybe Astro's eaten them. I don't know. I honestly don't know. Yeah, yeah. Let's do Meta Frameworks pain points. 12% of respondents had NextJS issues. So you know what? It's funny is that in the other pain points, the number one was React issues. And I do wonder, you know, how many of these issues are either, you know, they're the same thing, you know, this is, or because the boundaries have blurred between the two, like, what is a React issue? What is a NextJS issue? Yeah.

• 36:56Wes Bos?

  I've been in NextJS world for like the past month or so, quite heavily moving my own side over. And I've hit, like, as I'm, I'm a huge fan of NextJS and I still think it's the best way to do server components. And it's a great way, but because Next has been around for so long and they are, they're aggressive about backwards compatibility. There's just so much in NextJS. There's so many little things that they have to support. And now there is also a turbopack, so there's two different ways to build it locally. Like, I had, I have this issue with, when I did the receipt printer with singletons. Then you can't use a singleton in, in NextJS because there's,

• 37:39Scott Tolinski?

  Geez.

• 37:40Wes Bos?

  If you call a server action from the server or you call a server action from the client, they're two different bundles. They don't share between the two of them as a singleton. There's just like, yeah, lots of little. Lots of little edges and I feel like I hit them all. It's not like a slight about it, but I think it's just that that happens when things get so big and older, you start hitting these little edge cases, which is kinda, kinda tiring.

• 38:09Scott Tolinski?

  I do have some wonder about the hard lean into server. As much as there are benefits to it, I just, the more I think about apps I use every day, like sure, like Reddit, that's a perfect use case for server or anything, right? You want all that indexed, you want all that, you want all that information rendered server side, right? Reddit still is, I believe it's, I mean, I might be using web components these days. I forget what it was because their React rebuild was so rough. But in another regard, you use something like Sentry. Sentry doesn't need server side rendering. Why would it need that, right? It's all client side. I don't know if they do use server side rendering. Honestly, I have no clue. But it feels like, you know, there was such a shift that everything needs to be rendered server side.

• 38:53Scott Tolinski?

  And now like I look at the things I use daily and it's like, all right. I look at an app and I say, all right, server side. And then I look at another app, all right, this one needs to be client side. And you get this like, this, I don't know, this interesting thing where people always feel like you gotta lean really hard to one side or the other. And I think there's just very specific use cases for both. I think they're both fine.

• 39:13Wes Bos?

  I think like being able to switch between them is, is key. Because like, like a silly, silly example is syntax highlighting. You shouldn't have to syntax highlight in the browser when you can just syntax highlight on the server and send the HTML to the thing. Like syntax highlighters are huge. And why are you loading all this JavaScript on the client and an entire theme just to put like a little box with a console dot log in there, right? That's, that seems like a crazy amount of JavaScript to run. So that certainly should be server side, right? I think the, like what you're getting at here is that a lot of.

• 39:59Wes Bos?

  People said, everything has to be server by default and the like, the hard switch from, all right, I just built everything client side and now all of a sudden, everything is server side by default. And you gotta put use client and everything that like sort of burned a lot of people because

• 40:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Wes Bos?

  Like, I think it's, I think it's great, the server side. It makes a lot of sense to me.

• 40:23Scott Tolinski?

  I think it's great too, yeah.

• 40:25Wes Bos?

  But I don't think that you need to like make a, like a choice. It's just on a component by component basis of where should this thing be rendered?

• 40:35Scott Tolinski?

  I think you do make a choice because if you look at something when you're starting out, the first question to me is like, what needs to be server rendered and what doesn't? And if it doesn't need to be server rendered, to me, adding server rendering is just adding unnecessary complexities to it.

• 40:52Wes Bos?

  But then you just don't use it though. Like, shouldn't that just be the case?

• 40:57Scott Tolinski?

  Well, that's what I'm saying. You look at it, you start and you say, all right, does this need server side rendering or not?

• 41:02Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 41:02Scott Tolinski?

  That, that is the choice. That is the choice you have to make. But yeah, I, I mean, most of the things I work on could probably be either way. But it matters more to me in terms of like data loading. Like where is the data living? Uh, how is that data being loaded? Is it, you know, coming in as HTML from the initial call or is it coming in as JSON from a fetch request somewhere? I mean, those are the, yeah.

• 41:26Wes Bos?

  Yeah, the, the two different ways to go about it. I, I think the, the next JS approach is while people are sort of tired of it because it's server by default. I think it's an awesome way. I do think it should have been the opposite, which is client default. And then opt in to server just for the sake of, of making people not mad. And that's what, what Tanner's doing with the tan stack start.

• 41:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 41:51Wes Bos?

  But it's just the ability to do either one or. Like RPC call stuff on the server from the client is such a nice thing. And of course, we can do that in all frameworks now.

• 42:05Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah, totally. It just does feel like, yeah, it feels like that that transition burned a lot of people. And some people it burned didn't have to be burned by it because they didn't actually need it.

• 42:17Wes Bos?

  They didn't have those problems. Yeah.

• 42:19Scott Tolinski?

  Right.

• 42:19Wes Bos?

  That's the other thing. You talk about all these amazing improvements. And some people were like, hey, my app was great. I didn't need any of this, you know? I got enough stuff to do at work than have to fuss with all these these changes.

• 42:33Scott Tolinski?

  You know, testing here, the testing tools, if you look at the testing tools, what there's like 10 plus testing tools on this list. And I wonder how many of these will go away the more that people use the built in node test runner. Now, I'm not sure, you know, you have things like mock service worker. That probably won't go anywhere if you need it.

• 42:54Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Scott Tolinski?

  Puppeteer and playwright and Cypress and Storybook, those are all certainly their own things. But like Jest and maybe even Vtest to an extent, like Mocha, Selenium. Like some of these things, it's like, do these need to exist anymore now that we have a built in test runner? I don't know. I don't do enough testing. I'm sure there's experts who do enough testing that could answer that for me, but.

• 43:20Wes Bos?

  Yeah, well, now that node supports TypeScript, like it's it's another reason not to have to fuss with that, right? You're not having to transpile your code to run it in like a different environment to make sure that it works.

• 43:35Scott Tolinski?

  Right.

• 43:36Wes Bos?

  So, yeah, it's, let's see, if we look at rank, number one, still Jest is still number one.

• 43:45Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that's got to be Stockholm syndrome or.

• 43:47Wes Bos?

  Yeah, well, just you don't want to, the last thing you want to do is move your test runner.

• 43:52Scott Tolinski?

  No, thank you.

• 43:52Wes Bos?

  To over, you know, if it's working, it's working. Don't fuss with it.

• 43:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 43:58Wes Bos?

  Real quick, we're going through build tools here. I think this is kind of interesting is V and Webpack are at par with what people are using at work. That's. That's amazing that V has climbed. I wonder what it is over year, year over year, but I think at this time, probably next year, we'll see V have a significant improvement over top of Webpack.

• 44:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it'll be interesting to see too with the roll down stuff. Man, V is such as a killer trajectory all over.

• 44:28Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 44:30Wes Bos?

  Pain points in Build Tools config, performance. Yeah, those are probably the two biggest one, right? It's slow and I hate having to fuss with it and, and make it work. All right, let's talk about libraries. I'm going to ask you, yes, can you name some of the top or most used libraries or almost called these like utils that people bring into their projects?

• 44:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Okay. Well, if I know anything about this section of the survey, it's always stuff like underscore. So I will say low dash is first.

• 45:05Wes Bos?

  Low dash 43% number one.

• 45:07Scott Tolinski?

  Is underscore second?

• 45:09Wes Bos?

  Underscore, no. 7% still though. Like that just goes to show like underscore has not been the move for probably eight years now.

• 45:18Scott Tolinski?

  I know. Yeah.

• 45:19Wes Bos?

  And it still has quite a bit of usage.

• 45:23Scott Tolinski?

  Okay. So in that case, I will say moment JS.

• 45:26Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Moment coming in at number four, 27%.

• 45:30Scott Tolinski?

  Does date FNS take over moment?

• 45:33Wes Bos?

  Yeah, it does. Thankfully, uh, number two, uh, which is funny because we're almost out of spot now where.

• 45:38Scott Tolinski?

  Well, you don't need either. Yeah.

• 45:39Wes Bos?

  Other libraries, uh, what day JS is number five. I think that's one that people like to use instead of date functions. And then we'll have temporal taking over all of that. Although I, I still think we're gonna, we're gonna have like a.

• 45:53Scott Tolinski?

  You'll have a layer.

• 45:54Wes Bos?

  Util library.

• 45:55Scott Tolinski?

  I already built my own.

• 45:56Wes Bos?

  On top of temporal. There you go.

• 45:57Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I've already built my own of just like functions that I need, you know? So I can't imagine that there won't be some official one. Okay. Uh, so I'm missing number three.

• 46:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 46:06Scott Tolinski?

  Is that? Oh, boy.

• 46:08Wes Bos?

  It's not surprised me. I don't know that. It's something you've used, and I think something that you're a fan of.

• 46:13Scott Tolinski?

  Something I've used and I'm a fan of.

• 46:16Wes Bos?

  It's for, I'll say it's, I'll give you one word, validation.

• 46:21Scott Tolinski?

  Validation. Is it ZOD?

• 46:23Wes Bos?

  Yeah, number three.

• 46:25Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Wes Bos?

  ZOD is, that's 36% of people using ZOD.

• 46:30Scott Tolinski?

  Cool.

• 46:30Wes Bos?

  Seventy percent using jQuery. Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan.

• 46:34Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, okay, cool. All right, let's do backend frameworks. What do you think is number one here?

• 46:39Wes Bos?

  Express.

• 46:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, of course.

• 46:41Wes Bos?

  Number two, I'm gonna say Fastify.

• 46:48Scott Tolinski?

  Fastify is number three. I'm surprised with that, yeah.

• 46:50Wes Bos?

  Number two, I'm gonna say number four is Hono.

• 46:54Scott Tolinski?

  Five is Hono.

• 46:55Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 46:56Scott Tolinski?

  So close. So you're missing number four and number two.

• 47:00Wes Bos?

  The number two framework. Man, what's the Express one that people used? I know what it is, but I can't think of the name. It's similar to, Koa.

• 47:09Scott Tolinski?

  Not Koa. Koa is number six.

• 47:11Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 47:12Scott Tolinski?

  It's something that has been around, obviously not as long as Express. It is not used a whole lot in the React community, but is very popular. It's used a lot in Angular community.

• 47:28Wes Bos?

  Is it like Eliza?

• 47:30Scott Tolinski?

  Eliza is number seven.

• 47:32Wes Bos?

  That's like a, like a Hono alternative, right? And then like, there's probably like Nitro is on there as well.

• 47:39Scott Tolinski?

  Nitro, I don't see Nitro. Nitro is way below, it's below Meteor on here, so.

• 47:44Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 47:44Scott Tolinski?

  Not many people using Nitro. Do you wanna?

• 47:47Wes Bos?

  I need, I don't, I can't, I can't think of what number two would be.

• 47:50Scott Tolinski?

  So number two, the word is kind of like next, but not next.

• 47:53Wes Bos?

  Is it Nest JS?

• 47:55Scott Tolinski?

  It's Nest JS. By a long shot, it's number two. It's.

• 47:58Wes Bos?

  Wow.

• 47:59Scott Tolinski?

  The next one, Fastify, is only a third of the respondents that said Nest. And then number four is Strappy.

• 48:07Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, I should have known that.

• 48:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Wes Bos?

  Strappy. What else is on here? Adonis JS, Happy Meteor.

• 48:18Wes Bos?

  Sales, Redwood. Man, every time I see the Redwood not getting any love.

• 48:23Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, same, yeah.

• 48:26Wes Bos?

  Payload 36. That's more entering the CMS. We need to do a CMS episode.

• 48:33Scott Tolinski?

  I'm down for that.

• 48:35Wes Bos?

  All right, JavaScript runtimes, 91% of people using Node and 83% using browser. So more people, we, we, we had the same thing last year. More people are using the browser than, than Node? That doesn't make any sense.

• 48:52Scott Tolinski?

  How does it not make, oh, you mean Node more than the browser?

• 48:56Wes Bos?

  Yeah. What runtimes do you use, regularly use?

• 49:01Scott Tolinski?

  Browser shouldn't be number one. 100% of people, if you're writing web stuff. I guess this is just JavaScript. Maybe people aren't writing JavaScript for the web entirely, which.

• 49:09Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, hey.

• 49:11Wes Bos?

  Maybe there's just Flash or, you know what was crazy? This is totally aside, but I, I keep thinking about it every single day. Dino has WebGL rendering now, or Web, no, Dino has Web GPU.

• 49:27Scott Tolinski?

  Web GPU.

• 49:28Wes Bos?

  Which means that you can render with the graphics card on the server. And somebody built, there's a YouTube video, someone built a, like a Spotify UI clone entirely on the server. So like server rendering and then just streaming the, the UI to the client.

• 49:45Scott Tolinski?

  It's not even HTML though, right?

• 49:46Wes Bos?

  No, it's not. It's not. It's all, it's all just like WebGL rendered, which is cool.

• 49:52Scott Tolinski?

  It's like when Ken Wheeler built a React and then at the end of his talk, revealed that the entire thing was being rendered in Canvas, even though the code was all React. You're just like, that rules. That rules.

• 50:05Scott Tolinski?

  Hilariously enough, 98 people responded that they used no runtime, which, yeah, I don't know about that one.

• 50:12Wes Bos?

  I'm surprised that Cloudflare workers got a, they got a write-in, I guess. Only 30 people, but it wasn't an option? And then Bun 16% and Dino 12. So this is what I'm really interesting in is like, how many people are actually using these other two runtimes, Dino and Bun? That's probably more than I would have guessed. So I'm happy about that. Oh, serverless. Where are people running it? I know we're getting a little long here, but let's, let's do this one real quick. 28% using Lambda, 70% using Vercel, 14% using Cloudflare Workers. That surprises me. I would have thought that the Vercel would be significantly higher than Cloudflare Workers, but they're, they're pretty close there.

• 50:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I don't know Cloudflare Workers, man. They're easy to use. That's what I reach for.

• 51:00Wes Bos?

  That's so good. Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to host my next site on Cloudflare entirely, just as like a, to see how well you can do it. And it's, it's going well so far.

• 51:10Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Everything I do in SvelteKit is pretty much, unless I want to just throw it on my, if I need a node, like a node app, I put it on my Coolify, but everything else I throw on Cloudflare.

• 51:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Scott Tolinski?

  Or Cloudflare pages or yeah.

• 51:25Wes Bos?

  Can I get you to guess what other languages people use instead of, or in addition to JavaScript?

• 51:32Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I don't know. TypeScript.

• 51:35Wes Bos?

  Uh, yeah, that's considered, considered JavaScript.

• 51:39Scott Tolinski?

  I know. Well, it doesn't, it doesn't count.

• 51:41Wes Bos?

  Not to GitHub.

• 51:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, not to GitHub. Right. Yes. That's the, uh, the joke. Okay. So, uh, I don't know. I know JavaScript people like to say things like Go and Rust. So those are going to be on there.

• 51:52Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Go number six, 18% Rust, Rust number seven. So Go and Rust, yeah, six and seven.

• 51:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. It just goes to show you hype and, and all it, uh, C sharp.

• 52:03Wes Bos?

  A very clear winner at number one. Yeah. C sharp number four, 20%. But there's like a, there's something 39%. Come on. What are the, what are the two big languages that people use?

• 52:13Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah. Obviously PHP. Yeah.

• 52:15Wes Bos?

  PHP number two, 29. Number one.

• 52:19Scott Tolinski?

  HTML. No. Um, uh, programming languages that.

• 52:25Wes Bos?

  AI, I think AI.

• 52:27Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, Python.

• 52:27Wes Bos?

  Java, Java number three and Python number one. Yeah. So yeah. Almost, almost half of people are also using Python.

• 52:35Scott Tolinski?

  Where's Swift on this list or is it on this listed on?

• 52:37Wes Bos?

  Swift. Number 12 at 5%. I think that's, people writing JavaScript are probably not writing native

• 52:46Scott Tolinski?

  Totally.

• 52:46Wes Bos?

  apps, you know, like they're probably using React Native. Ooh, AI tools, what people are using, 67% ChatGPT, 48% Copilot. Then we got Claude, Gemini, Cursor. Only 11% of people using Cursor.

• 53:03Scott Tolinski?

  Cursor is good.

• 53:04Wes Bos?

  Cursor is very good and the amount that people talk about it is, is quite amazing. So I would have thought that'd be significantly higher. That just goes to show the like,

• 53:14Scott Tolinski?

  Oh yeah.

• 53:15Wes Bos?

  Sometimes the bubble that we, we live in, you know, like Copilot has 5X what Cursor has. If, if you were to just like ask me based on what people are talking about, you would think that go, like Microsoft is shutting down.

• 53:32Wes Bos?

  Codium is very close to Cursor too. I'm impressed with that. All right, last section we have here, which is the awards. How quickly can you guess which project will take the top spot in each category? Most adopted technology awarded to the technology with the largest year over year usage and progression?

• 53:51Scott Tolinski?

  Astro.

• 53:54Wes Bos?

  Oh yeah.

• 53:55Scott Tolinski?

  We're talking year over year. I would say Veet for all of these, but.

• 53:58Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I'm gonna say Astro. It's Veet.

• 54:02Wes Bos?

  How, how does Veet keep getting more year over year?

• 54:05Scott Tolinski?

  Every year. Maybe just, oh, it's sure, it's probably not percentage or something. It's sheer numbers of people. Yeah.

• 54:10Wes Bos?

  Oh yeah, yeah.

• 54:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 54:12Wes Bos?

  Okay. 30% year over year usage. Impressive.

• 54:16Scott Tolinski?

  That's my, uh.

• 54:17Wes Bos?

  But we did, we did note that, wow, it's the same as Webpack now.

• 54:21Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 54:21Wes Bos?

  So that's, it's, it's a year. Uh, highest retention awarded to technology with the highest percentage of returning users?

• 54:28Scott Tolinski?

  Veet.

• 54:31Wes Bos?

  Veetest.

• 54:31Scott Tolinski?

  Veetest, alright, that's fine, yes.

• 54:33Wes Bos?

  Veet number, number two at 98.

• 54:36Scott Tolinski?

  98%, yeah, just barely.

• 54:38Wes Bos?

  Highest interest awarded to technology developers are most interested in learning once they are aware of it.

• 54:46Scott Tolinski?

  Once they're aware of it.

• 54:50Scott Tolinski?

  I don't know, I'm, I'm saying Svelte, just because I like it, but I think it's probably Veet.

• 54:54Wes Bos?

  I'm gonna say playwright. Roll down.

• 54:58Scott Tolinski?

  Wow. Veetest and Veet.

• 55:01Scott Tolinski?

  That's like the, the biggest, that's the funniest thing, alright.

• 55:04Wes Bos?

  Most write-ins.

• 55:05Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, awarded to the item with the most around write-ins, I'm gonna say Scott Tolinski. No, I have no idea. This one I have no clue, maybe Roll Down, because I didn't see Roll Down listed too many places on here.

• 55:16Wes Bos?

  I'm gonna say Bun. Analog.

• 55:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 55:19Wes Bos?

  Angular Meta Framework, oh yeah. Nitro number two. And a Valley Bot, what's a Valley Bot?

• 55:27Scott Tolinski?

  Isn't it, uh, yeah, it's validation.

• 55:30Wes Bos?

  Validate unknown data with confidence. Valley Bot is an open source library for TypeScript with bundle. Oh, okay, similar to Zod.

• 55:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yep.

• 55:37Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's, you really need this with, when you're using like a, either just like a fetch API or if you're using a, an AI to return JSON.

• 55:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 55:48Wes Bos?

  Because you parse that and you hope it's there, right?

• 55:51Scott Tolinski?

  You sure hope.

• 55:52Wes Bos?

  You certainly should also, if you really want to be type safe, you should also check that the data looks like you, what you want.

• 55:58Scott Tolinski?

  Totally.

• 55:59Wes Bos?

  Most commented library, library that received the most comments.

• 56:04Scott Tolinski?

  A React, next to a React.

• 56:06Wes Bos?

  I'm gonna say Nest Jazz. Angular.

• 56:11Scott Tolinski?

  Storybook and Webpack, I'm, I'm floundering on these. Uh, most loved library, Veet.

• 56:15Wes Bos?

  Veet.

• 56:16Scott Tolinski?

  Or Veetest.

• 56:16Wes Bos?

  It is Veet, yeah. Beautiful. That's great, there also is, there's a couple more, uh, things we didn't go through here on resources. You can see, um, courses and newsletters, uh, podcasts. Number one, we are now competing with the YouTubers in the podcast category. So I asked. I asked Sasha, I'm like, what's the deal with people that don't have podcasts in the podcast category? And he said, it's just, it's all content, which makes sense.

• 56:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it's all content. Next time, vote for us on video creators then, folks. I know we're on that list, but you gotta, you gotta vote for syntax on all the things.

• 56:56Wes Bos?

  Way down at the bottom.

• 56:58Scott Tolinski?

  Just put in syntax for every single write-in that you can.

• 57:04Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's great. Cool. Well, that was really interesting to go through. Kind of gives us a good look into the JavaScript world. And as always, thanks to Sasha for putting this thing together. And anything else to add?

• 57:18Scott Tolinski?

  I got nothing, man. Want to get into sick picks and shameless plugs? I know it's been the holiday, so.

• 57:24Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 57:25Scott Tolinski?

  Probably a lot of stuff happening, huh?

• 57:27Wes Bos?

  Have I got one for you.

• 57:29Scott Tolinski?

  Oh.

• 57:32Scott Tolinski?

  I saw your tweet about this. I knew this was coming.

• 57:35Wes Bos?

  So this is a heated vest. And my sister got it for me for Christmas. And it, you hold it down, hold on. And it will heat the entire vest, including the collar. And at first I was like, oh yeah, I've seen them before in like the Home Depot or whatever. I'm like, yeah, it makes sense if you're a trade. But man, sitting at your desk, you're a little bit chilly. Or if you just run around shovel in snow or whatever, having your core nice and heated is amazing. And it's just a USB battery bank. It's a USB A plug, so you can use any, it comes with a battery bank, but you can use any battery you want. I'm assuming I could just plug it into my desk here, like hardwire it.

• 58:20Wes Bos?

  I'm worried I would just walk away.

• 58:22Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:23Wes Bos?

  Without unplugging. And it lasts like, I don't know, five, six hours, something like that on a single battery, which is significantly long. So I'm, I'm surprised at how much I like this thing. And I would say if you're cold at your desk. Get one of these. It's great.

• 58:40Scott Tolinski?

  I didn't get a heated vest, but Courtney did get me like one of those back recovery things where you like strap it to your back and it has.

• 58:49Wes Bos?

  Oh, I've seen those. Yeah, yeah.

• 58:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And man, that thing really cooks. It gets really hot. And then I'm not, that's not negative. That's perfectly great that it gets so hot. But yeah, man, it's cool. It just charges. You wrap it around and you, you get cooking. I might actually use that in my office to heat up. I'm going to sick pick Super Mario Party Jamboree. Man, I, I've always played Mario Party, you know, as a, I've been playing it since middle school or high school or whatever. Love Mario Party. But they've always been like the more modern ones have always been kind of iffy in various ways. We'd still buy them, but they're, they're always kind of iffy. The latest one, it feels like, man, it feels like Nintendo 64 Mario Party in the best way. There's enough like new stuff, but

• 59:35Scott Tolinski?

  our kids are just the perfect age where on New Year's, Courtney and I in the past, we would just play Mario Party. We would do a long Mario Party thing. That's what Courtney and I would do instead of going to parties or whatever. And it was always a lot of fun. And this year we were like, let's buy the new Mario Party and play Mario Party with the kids on New Year's. And we did that. And they're just like the perfect age for it. So it was a lot of fun. We, we've been playing it and our kids really getting the hang of it. So.

• 1:00:05Wes Bos?

  Really?

• 1:00:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Wes Bos?

  What Mario Party? Which one's that?

• 1:00:09Scott Tolinski?

  So Mario Party is like a board game and you, you roll a dice and you go around a board and the board has various elements that do things. And then after everyone does a turn, it does a mini game. You all do a mini game and the winner gets a certain amount of coins. Second place, and then you use those coins to buy stars and this person.

• 1:00:26Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, and this on Switch?

• 1:00:30Scott Tolinski?

  This is on Switch and it is so, you know, you could use the, the little sideways controller. So you only need like two sets of Joy-Cons.

• 1:00:37Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 1:00:38Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, our, our kids went nuts for it. There's, there's motion ones where you're, you're doing stuff and there's, there's platforming ones. And even Brooklyn has a great time. Land and even won. He won like two times ago, which is like the the transformation of our kids like not being able to play the most basic video games to winning a round of Mario Party happened like overnight. It was kinda crazy.

• 1:00:58Wes Bos?

  Our kids too, you know, we a couple of years ago, we bought a Wii.

• 1:01:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:01:02Wes Bos?

  And they played it and it was it was okay, but I I hacked it. And I'm able to get like any game backup on it that I already own. And then I downloaded every single I put a NES emulator on there. Guess how big every single NES game ever is?

• 1:01:20Scott Tolinski?

  Forty gigs?

• 1:01:22Wes Bos?

  Seventy megs.

• 1:01:24Scott Tolinski?

  That's I actually downloaded, or maybe it's because I downloaded N sixty four too.

• 1:01:28Wes Bos?

  Yeah, yeah, not N sixty four, but like every NES emulator ever or every ROM seventy megs, amazing. And like, of course, you get like the GameCube or whatever, they're they're much bigger, but I put it on there. And I was like, what games do these kids even play? So we were just playing NES games, but Mario Party, is that on the Wii?

• 1:01:48Scott Tolinski?

  Uh, there is Mario Party for the Wii.

• 1:01:49Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I'm gonna get that for them.

• 1:01:51Scott Tolinski?

  There's one that was actually pretty good because I had the Mario Party for the Wii. I think it was Mario Party.

• 1:01:56Wes Bos?

  Nine.

• 1:01:56Scott Tolinski?

  Which one? Mario Party eight was good. I did Mario Party nine, not good. Mario Party eight, good. Yeah.

• 1:02:03Wes Bos?

  Okay, that's good to know. I will, uh, I will buy that on eBay.

• 1:02:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, a lot of fun.

• 1:02:09Wes Bos?

  Yeah, cool. That's good. All right. Check out the Syntax YouTube channel. Uh, we are posting videos like nothing, uh, or not nothing. We are posting lots of videos, uh, in in the new year, so check it on out if you wanna, of course, watch the podcast, but also we've got just dedicated videos coming for you. So check it out. Syntax FM on YouTube. Is that what it is?

• 1:02:33Scott Tolinski?

  As Syntax FM on YouTube. Yes, it is.

• 1:02:35Wes Bos?

  Beautiful. All right. Peace.