109: Healing Single Vs. In A Relationship With Samm Murphy

Whether single or in a relationship, healing is a deeply personal journey. Today, Sabrina and guest Samm Murphy emphasize the importance of curiosity, self-awareness, and connection throughout the process. Sabrina highlights how being single can create space for self-discovery, allowing individuals to break habitual patterns and focus on their inner child work. Samm shares that while healing in a relationship adds complexity, it also offers unique opportunities for growth through triggers and mutual support. They agree that healing isn’t about reaching a final destination but embracing a continuous process where triggers become opportunities to evolve. Sabrina and Samm discuss how relationships can provide evidence to counter negative core beliefs, fostering change when both partners are committed to growth. They underscore the importance of communication and aligning on values, emphasizing that understanding a partner’s unique needs while staying true to oneself is vital. For those single and healing, Sabrina advises recognizing patterns and shifting beliefs, while Samm encourages curiosity about what triggers anxiety and exploring new behaviors. Together, they stress that relationships require intentional effort, appreciation, and a shared vision, creating an environment where both individuals can continue to heal and thrive. Whether single or partnered, Sabrina and Samm advocate for compassion, openness, and the courage to embrace imperfection as integral to the healing journey. Get Masha and Sabrina's new course, the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknown in Early Dating HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free episodes HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hi guys, welcome back to another week. I cannot believe we are ending the year soon, which is so wild to me, but I'm excited today. Today, we have a very special guest. Not only is she a personal friend, but she's just an amazing human being. And it's Samm Murphy and we are going to talk about healing, single versus in a relationship. A question that you guys ask so often that I felt like it was time for us to have the conversation and there was no one better than to have it with than Sam. So I'm super excited, guys. As always, thank you, thank you for everything. Please don't forget, rate and review the show, subscribe on YouTube, leave a comment,

• 0:44Sabrina Zohar?

  be kind with the comments that we leave and just let us know how you think about the show. And please don't forget five stars, share it with a friend. That's all we ask. As always, guys, if you need anything, everything will be in the link in the show notes. We have the new course out with Masha on regulating your nervous system in the first zero to three months of dating, which is truly just for anybody at this point. But, or the foundation course, whatever you guys need, it will always be in the show notes. And guys, I'm just so excited. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

• 1:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Hey, girl.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Hey, what's happening?

• 1:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I'm so excited to have you in studio.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  I know, I'm so excited to be here. I feel like it's so fun. Rub the chairs, I get all these fun things.

• 1:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Welcome to ADHD land in person where we're like, ooh, shiny.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  I love it. I'm like, mm, what else? Look at this, oh, I love this. I was like, what's it called, a cup mat? No, it's a coaster.

• 1:41Sabrina Zohar?

  It's a coaster.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  It's a coaster. I mean, it could be a cup mat.

• 1:44Sabrina Zohar?

  I really love that.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh God, this conversation's gonna be fun. Sam?

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49Sabrina Zohar?

  For anyone who doesn't know who you are, could you please share a little bit about yourself? Introduce yourself and just tell us, like, how the fuck did you get here?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I would love to and thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here today. So I got into this work by, you know, via needing my own healing, right? As many of us do, wanting to get into this space. And, you know, I work in this space too for a long I was like, what do I do? What do I call myself? I was like, I can't decide what I want for the name to be, but really more, what is it that I do? So I kind of settled on transformation and relationships, but really it's helping people get more of what they want out of life from the boardroom to the bedroom and everything in between. Is it joy, happiness, fulfillment? You know, and looking at what are the barriers that are blocking us to having what we want? And how do we remove those? And because I'm type A and I like to do things this way, how do we do it in the fastest way possible? So through my own imposter syndrome, over certified

• 2:39Speaker 01

  in many methods and modalities. And then got the beauty of that, though, was then I could cherry pick from these different modalities, what was really powerful, what was really effective and put it together in a blend. So from hypnosis to parts integration, IFS, a bunch of different modalities, really looking at the internal stuff of what are the barriers that are blocking us from what we want? And then also, I never intended to work with couples and co-founders and in this relational dynamic. But one of the things that I realized when we started getting into the work is oftentimes, the quality of our life is really dependent on the quality of our relationships. And if we're looking for happiness or fulfillment or some of these things, when we really started to unpack, it was, oh, my relationship's really struggling, or I can't figure out how to do it.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  And one of the things I get really fired up about too, is when we can heal that relationship, when something can shift there, right away, we can make big drastic impacts in our life and our happiness. Because oftentimes, people will think that it's separate, it's siloed, here's my work, here's my love life, here's my health, here's my fitness. But really, they're all pillars that hold up this platform on which we exist. So when one is wobbly, you know, it's leaking energy, they're all interconnected. And the other thing too, that really fires me up is, relationships are so vital, yet no one teaches us, no, they don't, how to have them. Right? And if anything, I feel like we're sort of sold a sack of shit, that says Hollywood and society of, oh, we're gonna meet, and it's gonna be easy, and it's gonna be great. Where's the movie of like, you meet,

• 4:08Speaker 01

  and it's a lot of work, and it's, you know, we've got a move in process through this, and then we climb out of the trenches on the other side, and you think it's good, and then we're in it again. We just don't see that, you know? And so one of the things to me too, is, I think for a lot of people, it's scary, or how do we do it? It's confusing. And part of what I'm very passionate about is, how do we demystify that? It's actually not hard. There is a roadmap, but no one taught us.

• 4:31Sabrina Zohar?

  No, they didn't. And I will say, what was, what was I taught? Love has to be earned. This is really tough. Like even just those core beliefs of like, oh, I don't deserve rest. Right? No, no, you have to work. And it's like, I know, I also do deserve rest. Right? And I think that's well, one, for anyone who doesn't know, like, I'll get vulnerable for a second. Sam has been coaching me and been working with me personally on like, and I wanted to touch on this inner child journey very quickly before we kind of go in. Cause I do think it plays such an important part in the rest of what we're going to talk about. But what I love is that you and I are very similar in the way that we work. Like, I love to really go back, understand the story, the narratives and things like that. So when we started to work together and continue to do, for me, I think it's really, really fun to explore these opportunities to go deep.

• 5:15Sabrina Zohar?

  But I was curious to even just hear kind of your thoughts on this, because I think when it comes to this inner child work, right? Like, I think so much of what we're going to be talking about is this basis around like, you're not going to be able to have a relationship with other people or really yourself, if you don't come home to yourself, if you don't really understand.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 5:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like all of the layers and the variables. But I think, you know, for me, like inner child work was something that I fell upon. Like, it wasn't something that I went to go find. And I just started to notice like, oh, wow, this version's coming up. And I learned about parts work, like the world started to collide. And now for me, especially like being in a relationship, the reason I wanted to share this is like, the work doesn't stop. Right? The work.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  If anything amplifies, it's well, it's a new, it's a new layer and it's a new level. Even, you know, I think people accept a lot of things in other areas of life that in relationship, they sort of have this double standard. You know, like in business, we'd say, oh, what got us here won't get us here. And it's very accepted. But in relationship, we don't maybe really think about it that way. And it's like, oh, what got us here may or may not be the thing that gets us here. You know, there's this continued evolution.

• 6:19Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent. And like, I think for a lot of folks, the inner child aspect of it is confusing. Or they're like, I don't understand how to tap into this. So I'd love to hear, how do you normally like work with people when they're struggling to tap into the, I don't know where this root is coming from. I don't know what's going on. Where did I learn this from? Because when you and I first started working, I didn't know what to expect.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:39Sabrina Zohar?

  And it wasn't until you were like, okay, close your eyes and let's explore. And I was like, what? And it was an hour and fucking half later that I opened my eyes and I was like, I just.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Where'd we go?

• 6:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh my God, that was a trance. I was like, we just saw like 40 versions of me. But I am curious, like, how do you like to work? Or what can we help the audience with if they're struggling to tap into that? Like, what is a good place to start, even just on the healing journey?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think a good place to start is noticing, okay, what is the symptom? What's happening? Are we anxious? Or what is the thing that is coming up? And really just starting with even making a note. Okay, I'm noticing in this situation, in this place, I am experiencing, right? So we can start to just have that awareness and identify, okay, what is it we want to look at? What is it we want to work with? Sometimes, just to sit and say, okay, I'm anxious when this happens. What does that remind me of? Is there anything earlier in life? Whether it's recent history or far back history, is there anything this reminds me of? And sometimes, we will find something. Sometimes, we won't. So I think the beauty is, sometimes, we can find this place of, ooh, okay.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I noticed this feels very similar. I feel anxious that they won't be here for me. Oof, that reminds me of the same way I felt with my parents. Okay, now I've got this. I can identify where it came from. Awareness is beautiful. Awareness is only the first step. So one of the things that I want to encourage people to do, and there's, we can do some self-guided, and at some point in time, maybe I can even record something and share, if that's beneficial to the audience, is how do we find those parts for ourselves? The other thing that can be really helpful is sometimes awareness itself is not enough. So we can know the root, we can see the connection, we can't shift it, we can't unhook it. So when we do the work where we're closing our eyes and we're sort of, our goal is to remove the barrier between the conscious and the unconscious mind. What we're getting curious about and what we're working with when we get in there is what is the operating system that we're not always conscious about?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  So one of the things I want to encourage people to, if they feel frustrated or stuck, and they don't know where it came from, that finding the right processing modality, whether it be EMDR, IFS, parts work, hypnotherapy, different blends,

• 8:41Speaker 01

  We can identify through sessions and support with people, or some even self-guided, where we can uncover what that thing is, even though we weren't consciously aware of it.

• 8:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's one of the first places. So I think it would be for people, okay, noticing the symptom, because it's just informing us, okay, I'm anxious. Where's it coming from? And then two, if we're feeling stuck, looking at, okay, maybe there's a self-guided hypnosis I could check out. There's probably tons of stuff on YouTube that we could even like point towards, you know, to explore, or working with a practitioner. Because the thing to restore hope, because I feel like some of us often get so down and so stuck in that losing possibility, or hope that something could be different. And it's, oh, hey, you just need some support. I mean, one of the things I think is so important is so much of our wounding occurs in isolation. So heal in community, heal with support. Because a lot of us, myself included, it's like, I gotta do it myself. Give me that tape, you know, I'm dating myself, MP, whatever, all the things.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  You have that audio file, and let me listen to it, let me do it. Which has merit and benefit, and if we can find that person and it works to work with someone, so much that can be healing too, is our nervous system, our system or unconscious knowing, oh, somebody's here with me, I'm not alone.

• 9:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  And then in this, what we're always wanting to do for so many is establish safety. It's safe to do this, I've got you, we have support, someone's here to guide. And even that can often open up so much more for us.

• 10:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, 100%. I mean, I probably have shared this story, but I'm gonna share it again. I'll never forget when my ex and I broke up, and like, I think a lot of people could probably resonate with this, like, being with, like, a true narcissist, okay? Not this nonsense bullshit that we see on the internet of like, that guy was selfish.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  It is, it is overused.

• 10:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Not a fucking narcissist.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:21Sabrina Zohar?

  And he was, I mean, this guy, it's like, anyone you meet, it's like, says it. And I was so isolated from him. I was alone. I didn't have my friends, I didn't have, that was the goal, right, was to divide and conquer, was to make me his puppet and his flying monkey. So I was just beholden to him, and everybody else was alienated from me. So I was... 25 pounds lighter than I am now, like literally looked like people were asking if I was okay. That's how bad it was. For me, yeah, therapy was, it was there, but I was so fucking broke. I didn't have any money and I was like, I don't even know how I'm gonna afford this. Like that was what was going through my head of like, how am I gonna even just afford to live without him living in this house? Let alone, how can I get help for myself?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:59Sabrina Zohar?

  And the one decision I made was I went to a narcissist anonymous group. And I only went once and it's all I took because I'll never forget being there and sharing my story. Cause I was new. So of course they were like, Sabrina, can you share? And I'll never forget one of the older women just looking at me and I just, cause I, I remember just ending it going, but this is like normal, right? Like this was how my dad was. And she just looked at me and she goes, honey, that wasn't okay.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:25Sabrina Zohar?

  And even just her saying that, I was like,

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Oh, the validation, right? The acknowledgement, you can like feel it in your system, like,

• 11:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I felt for the first time, I was like, oh, you see me, like you get it, like holy shit. So I'm not crazy. Oh my God, I didn't make this up. And then another girl chimed into her story and she was like, Sabrina, I was you. And she was like, and I'm now married to another amazing man. And I asked her, I said, why are you here? And she was like, because I was you. And she was like, this is how I feel like I can heal is by giving back and coming to these meetings. And the reason I share that is because I understand if financially you're not able to work with somebody, but there are support groups, if you Google just in your, I didn't know about this in New York. I had no idea that on 7th Avenue on the fucking 15th floor of a building.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  There would be something, yep.

• 12:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? And so there is support and community available. And so I just wanted to clarify, but like the importance of even just someone saying like, hey, what you experienced growing up wasn't normal.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Totally. I feel like, and not being alone in it, right? So I love that you're bringing that up. Yes. Across all different price points, wherever we are at, that there is something. Yeah.

• 12:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Cause it's not always spending more money doesn't necessarily mean you get better results, right? So like, sometimes it really is. I've had so many situations where if somebody I went on one date with just so happened to call me at the right time, never see these people again, but that was what I needed to go, okay, I'm okay. And so I really wanted to kind of enter in because I think the conversation comes all the time, right? We hear this, which comes first, the chicken or the egg, right? Do I need to be fully healed before I get into a relationship? Or can I heal in a relationship? And for me, I think off the bat, we're going to go ahead and debunk one really important aspect that I think we need to talk about. There is no such thing as being fully healed, right?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  No, we're on a journey, right? And again, talking about myths that I feel like do not serve us is that we are one day there. We have arrived. This is the thing. And it's, no, life is ever moving, ever evolving. And to reframe that, that doesn't have to be scary, or a downer, or terrible, or we haven't made it, or, ugh. It's, oh, no. Neat. We're always growing. We get to keep evolving.

• 13:27Sabrina Zohar?

  I'll tell you this, if this is my peak, no, thank you. Right? Like, if this is it, if I was like, that's it, I've reached my highest goal, okay, I'm no more healing, unsubscribe. I'm not interested in that. For me, I think it's fun. When I get triggered, I look at this as an opportunity for growth. I look at this as how can I level up as a person? I don't look at it as, oh, my God, it's happening for, to me. It's like, no, no, no, this really is happening for me. But for me, I really wanted to just, before we even fucking dive in, just kind of clarify, like, there is no such thing as being fully healed. And if you think that, no, no, I'd rather be single, what I hear from that is like, I don't want to be triggered. And that kind of led me to the first question. Someone said, why am I only healed while I'm single and then codependent and anxious in a relationship? And I think, to me, it was the perfect place to start because, one, I hear so many issues

• 14:12Sabrina Zohar?

  with this question. Healed, like, you're not. There is no such thing as being healed. But secondly, I'm excited that we get to talk about the aspect that, like, there was this fucking reel I saw the other day, and it was, a secure man is going to heal your anxious attachment style. And I was like, fucking bullshit. You know what someone's secure?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  So much of this stuff out there.

• 14:29Sabrina Zohar?

  So much nonsense. You know what someone's secure is going to do? Someone's secure is going to create a safe space for you to explore the shit that's coming up for you because you're going to get triggered.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 14:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And your partner's going to piss you off, and it's going to be really fucking tough a lot of the times. But there is no such thing as being fully healed because then you're not a human. But I wanted to hear your thoughts. When you hear, why am I only healed while I'm single and then codependent and anxious in a relationship? Talk to me.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, I think the biggest thing is like you touched on this brilliantly is we're not triggered. Right? When we're single, we've worked the stuff that maybe is coming up on a regular basis or that's being triggered by friends or other people, other connections. And it is in those intimate partnerships when we get the most invested, when we're getting to this place that we start to be triggered again. We start to notice stuff, you know? And so I think the one thing about relationships is something that's important is, do we need to be all the way healed? No, because we've just talked about how that's a fallacy. And one thing that can be very valuable and helpful, not a necessary requirement, but are both parties interested to evolve? People can use different words, grow, shift, change, whatever it may be.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  But are we two awake people that are interested to learn and explore with each other? You know, because I think there can be so much stigma around this or that. But the truth is, okay, we're here and I am, am I available for what we need to navigate through? Because relationships can be such a vehicle for transformation and like rocket ship for healing. Because we get to have new evidence to our conflicting like unconscious stories or those core wounds or core beliefs, right? Everybody leaves me, oh, but here's a person that's staying.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Now, we're going to push at them, right? We're probably going to do things that really test that, you know? And again, we get hijacked in these parts and these places that take us over and we become somebody different. So it's really about, are we with someone that is interested and available to learn and grow with us? And do we have enough awareness to start to notice when it's coming up for us? Right? Like, what are we doing? And what does that look like? Because yes, I think one of the things too is when we're dating, it's like us and our partners have been living life, just planting minefields all around us. And we don't realize when we step on one, it blows shit up, you know? And so that whole thing of like, wait, what just happened? But being okay with, ah, okay.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  They might be having something happen, you know? And so I think the biggest thing in relationship is how do we start to have awareness, to have pause before reactivity, to notice, oh, they're having a thing and not also have that trigger us? And now we're just on this ride, right? We're on this loop together. It's, oh, how do we slow down enough to go, ooh, oh, we're in a pattern? This pattern that's playing out, oh, how interesting, you know? And then how can we start to slow that down and deconstruct it to learn more about each other? And again, when it's healthy, we're doing that in a way that then gets to say, oh, that makes sense to me. I see what's happening for you and I'm not your dad or I'm not your past partner. And those parts of us that are freaking out that, are you sure? We get to have new evidence because the brain is always stacking and filing away evidence

• 17:37Speaker 01

  that says either men are unsafe, exhibit A, B, C, D. And then we come with that, even though we consciously don't want to. Because I think one thing that's important for people to know, oftentimes we think, oh, we are these conscious beings. We're running around making choice, doing... Science says 90 to 99% of what we do is habitually patterned in the unconscious. So anytime we have a conscious desire and an unconscious or subconscious belief that contradicts, almost always the unconscious belief is going to win. For example, I want to be in a relationship. But if there's somewhere in there that I'm not worthy and deserving, men aren't safe, relationships don't work out, we're going to see ourselves in this pattern, the self fulfilling prophecy, sort of, of that repeating.

• 18:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I have always been saying, if you find yourself with a pattern of, I keep dating narcissists, I keep dating avoidants, I keep dating emotionally unavailable people.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Common denominator.

• 18:29Sabrina Zohar?

  And I think that's the biggest component here is like, if you're seeing yourself in a pattern, we need to get, we need to put the shame and blame on a corner and on a shelf because it's not helping anybody and it's only keeping you on a loop. But what we can see here is, wait a minute, okay, if I'm the common denominator, like if I continuously date.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Well, and what a beautiful thing to realize it's us because we have power.

• 18:49Sabrina Zohar?

  That's the whole thing.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  If it's them, we have no control, no ability to create change and shift, right? So like you were saying, how is there a reframe of like, oh, wow? Curiosity, I am noticing there's something here.

• 19:03Sabrina Zohar?

  And which can't be accessible until you regulate, right? And so without a regulated state, without a nervous system that's like, hey, it's safe for me to explore this. I'm not on survival mode. I'm not constantly waiting to be saved. Once we can do that, and that's, I think, it has nothing to do with like, somebody had asked, how long do you allow yourself to heal? It's not a timeline. There isn't a, at six months, that's it, you're ready. It's like, no, no, no. But what the questions I would have is, what tools do you have? What are your regulation techniques? Do you, are you aware of your triggers? Have you processed and moved on from past relationships? Or are you still harping and holding on to that? Are you still blaming yourself? Do you still think you're 100% responsible for the issues that happened? Or have we understood that it takes two people? These are all important, but here's the reality. You could think, I hear this every fucking day.

• 19:48Sabrina Zohar?

  I went out with this person, they told me they wanted a relationship, they said that they're over their ex. And then all of a sudden, we're dating for two months and now they say they're not ready and they lied. And it's like, no, no, no. We can hold space for the fact that at one part in that person's life, they thought that they were ready.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  They thought they were ready.

• 20:03Sabrina Zohar?

  They thought they were ready.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  New things evolve. One thing that I see a lot and I experience with my husband now is when we went on a second date, because again, it's getting clear of what do you want, right? As I know you take a lot of people through like, what do we want? Where are we at? And really taking an honest inventory of that as we're moving forward. And I said on our second date, would you get married again? Cause he had been married before and would you have more kids? Cause I was very clear on this is what I want to do. And he's like, totally. And I think that was very true for him. I love how I'm like, love you babe, as I share about our life.

• 20:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Welcome to this podcast.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, welcome. It's okay. He'd be like, of course you did, honey. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not.

• 20:37Sabrina Zohar?

  He's like, I've met you.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised at all. He's like, hi, my name's Sam. I'm gonna tell you something uncomfortable about myself so you can tell me something about you. I'm like, honey, are you saying I'm good at connection? I'm not sure you meant that in a positive way, but I like that for us.

• 20:50Sabrina Zohar?

  That reframe.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  So he said, yes, and he said, yes, without any hesitation, because I think that was very true. Now, as we got, as we continued to date and things got closer and more time passed and this became more of a reality, stuff started to come up that I think he honestly didn't realize was there. And that just happens for people. So where can we be in that both were true?

• 21:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Right, exactly. Holding two conflicting thoughts, because if I, like, I would hear people be like, well, then he needs to heal his shit. And it's like, what I hear from that is that's black and white thinking. You don't have compassion for other people. How do you feel about yourself? Because I can tell you, I'm not 100% healed. I get triggered at things that are shocking to me that trigger me. Moments that I really thought I worked through it, and then something happens, you're like, no, I didn't. That's humbling. And it's not about how long do I need to heal for? It's about, because it's not time that heals all wounds. It's what you do with that time. The time, six years could go by and you're still fucking harping, because often, more often than not, when you're single, right? We're really talking about the single days. We haven't gotten into the relationship land yet. But when you're in those single days, and something happens, right? You think, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. There's no one triggering me. I'm okay. I've dealt with

• 21:56Sabrina Zohar?

  everything. You really do genuinely believe in your gut. Like, I'm so ready for this. I'm ready for a partner. I'm ready to share my life. But, like I said, if we're consistently seeing a pattern in something that, then maybe we need to go back to the drawing boards and say, you know what? Maybe I'm not as ready as I thought. If I consistently date emotionally unavailable people, there's a part of me that's emotionally unavailable. I'm not tapping into what's bothering me. What are my needs? And that's not fair to my partners, nor is that fair to the dating experience.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Totally. And I think asking ourselves too, like, okay, yeah, what comes up for me that has me keep choosing this? You know, like, am I emotionally unavailable? Do I think this is what I deserve? Like, this curiosity. And again, when they can own that, it's, oh, we can feel empowered now. It's like we can go in with our eyes wide open of, hey, what do I want to do here? One of the things, too, that I think is important is oftentimes, it's so easy that when we are hurting, we forget that there's a whole nother person having a whole nother experience over there. One of the ways I like to think about parts is they hijack us. It doesn't come in slow. It's like a freight train that, all of a sudden, we were regulated. People maybe have the experience this where you're like with someone, your partner, and all of a sudden, you're like, where did they go?

• 23:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Like, you know, what happened? And so it comes in right away, and they can take over. So when we are in that, we can lose that space and compassion. Oh, they are having a whole experience. Because when we are hurting, it is often true with An emotionally available person, right? Of course, there's extreme circumstances where somebody doesn't even want to be with us or doesn't, and we are hurting and in our pattern and they're just doing their own thing, right? Just blissfully unaware or not even committed to us if we're creating a narrative or story. And though, if we're in something where both people have said, they likely are hurting too.

• 23:35Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like Masha always says, she's like, your lived experience isn't everybody else's. And what ends up happening, especially I see this often in the dating stages of like, he's so avoidant and all of these things, harping on the other person without really having any compassion to say, I'm super anxious. What's their experience, right? I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I don't think either side needs to be right or wrong. But what I do as like, holding space, like when I see Ryan shut down, I will stop myself and say, Sabrina, it's not only about you. You are in a relationship now. Even when we dated, I was like, hey, he doesn't owe you anything. Like, you don't know this person. You have to remind yourself, like, I can only take care of my side of the street. I can only take care of myself. And it's interesting because someone said, why did he leave me after I started my healing journey? I was trying.

• 24:17Sabrina Zohar?

  And that loops me into this of like, my heart melted when I read this because I was like, oh, baby. Oh, you, oh, you don't see it. You don't see what we see, which is the reason that this person left you after you started doing your healing work is because homeboy or homegirl, this person couldn't sit, step up into doing the things they needed to do.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Totally. They can't be in the discomfort. And you know, my invitation there would be like, oh, look at this default of accepting blame and blaming the self.

• 24:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  So really in that piece of like, we're sending out so much love, but where else are you blaming yourself for things that just aren't true, that aren't your fault? And, and one of the things I love that Alison Armstrong says, and I know I've heard you say this too, is like, if we can be us and they're not into it, thank you, bye.

• 25:01Sabrina Zohar?

  I'd rather you not like me for me.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Thank you for saving me time. Because what happens is we bend and we pretzel and I be who you need me to be for you to like me, so I can get my needs met, so I can be okay, so you can be with me, so I can be connected, but I'm pretending to be somebody I'm not. And then what can happen is, okay, well, this avoidant over there thinks I'm pretty chill and I don't, I don't need. Communication or you know, and then all of a sudden we're in something and now we can't hold it anymore because it doesn't feel good and rightfully so they're like whoa like I thought I signed up for something different and they did because we were showing up pretending to be okay with something that we're not. So if we can honestly authentically be us and they're not into it, amazing because there's so many more fish in the sea and they're doing us a favor getting out of the way so the next one can come on in.

• 25:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Which I understand for people with scarcity mindset because someone said how do I deal with it, you know, and I understand that like scarcity mindset is a very real thing, but we also have to remember cognitive biases. Like and I, I will be the first one to tell you, I was the poster child of like glass half empty. I never saw anything positive. I didn't see that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I used to be the person that would repeat over and over, I'm going to be alone forever. No one likes me, right? Because I was so deep in my own thoughts. It's how I believe, that's how I thought of myself. And when I really shifted that and just let go of the like, I don't need to be in a pity party in my head. I don't need to believe that there's nothing good for me because that thought can also be the other side of there's amazing things for me. There's an abundance of things. I get to choose my heart. I get to choose my thoughts.

• 26:31Sabrina Zohar?

  And now the road to that is not just a like, just stop saying it. It's about acknowledging the parts of me that believe there is no one for me. It's about acknowledging the little girl that's like, I only get one set of parents. They're not what I want. This is my father who's a fucking asshole. My mom doesn't even know which day it is today. I don't have a choice. I have to be with these people. So I have to be a good girl and I have to let him choose me. But now in my adult world, hold the phone. I don't need you to choose me. I need to choose myself. Because if I look at myself right now, if you, I'm going to ask myself, what was Sabrina, what parts of yourself don't you love? It's like, oh no, no, there's plenty.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. Everybody out there just know, we don't have it all together. Not by a long shot. No.

• 27:13Sabrina Zohar?

  But the reality-

• 27:14Speaker 01

  We have a team of people we work with that are always constantly learning, exploring.

• 27:18Sabrina Zohar?

  The reality is though, I know the parts of me that I find difficult to love. I know that there's a little girl in there that's highly anxious because she's scared and I know that that can manifest with my partner and that scared me for a long time. It's like, no one's going to accept this part of me until I realize like, well, do I? Because when I unapologetically do and I say, I curse, I do this, this is who I am, then I allow, because people will meet me and Ryan and say, I don't understand, how did you get this? And it's like, by showing up like this.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, by being me.

• 27:45Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's something I think that we have to look at is it's not if somebody asks, is it easier to heal when you're a single person in a relationship? It's not easier either way. It's two different experiences because healing when you're single is understanding yourself, your wants, your needs, your desires. What makes me tick? What are my triggers? What do I like? What don't I like? What is my, what is my future goal? Things like that, right?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Different parts of the journey, that clarity to hone in on what do we want? What do we want to call in and who do we need to be or become? You know, with our work and process to track that and to draw that in.

• 28:15Sabrina Zohar?

  When I started my journey, like what really started it was telling my dad to fuck off. Early January 2022, I was like, I'm done. And I remember even sitting there like shaking and just being like, wait a minute. But I just told the big bad wolf, like this is, you're the literal person that started all of this. And I said, no, I walked away. And then it was the next guy I dated where I was like, I'm going to change the way I date. And I told him, I was like, get the fuck out of my house. I'm not doing this. It was bit by bit, little steps every day of, I could text this person. I'm going to try something different today. I'm not going to do that. That to me was how it started to compound. It wasn't like my last relationship was a shit show and now all of a sudden.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  We flipped a total 180, right? I think that yes, setting appropriate expectations of can there be giant 180 shifts? Yes, I want to hold that for people too, right? We can have amazing, crazy fast shifts and it can be small incremental change, choosing ourselves, setting boundaries. One of the things I wanted to add to what you were saying, which I think is so great is, you know, scarcity mindset versus, hey, there is another equal choice, right? A flip side of the coin that it's possible. And one of the things I just want to remind people is we have, the brain will spotlight and focus on what we give it instructions to. So we're always deleting, you know, organizing information because not everything can come in. So the brain finds what we instruct it to find, the reticular activating system, right? So if we say, men suck, there's not a lot out there. That's what registers as evidence.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  If we say, the right partner's coming to me and we work to shift that belief. I know for some people like, I don't even mean it. We, there's gradual steps and ways to get there, but the, the brain will start to look and register. Let's say we have a belief that men are jerks or men don't care. We could be in a room full of 50 men. Forty nine of them be quite nice and polite. They held our door open. They asked us if we wanted some water. One bumps into us and doesn't say sorry. And we're like, that's the part that registers. Maybe people have ever noticed this. If you ever go to buy a new car and then all of a sudden you're like, were they on sale? Everyone's driving them. No, it's because our, it's now in our awareness and the brain is going, okay, find it. So if we can start to shift to that possibility of there are partners out there and available.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  And one of the exercises you can do is where in your life has that been true? Past partners that maybe we weren't in a state to receive? Or who do we know that's in a relationship that's healthy and good? And just writing a list, because again, we have a default and a bias in the brain that says, this is true and here's all the evidence. Here's my folder. And we want to start to help to shift that so we can see it in a new way.

• 30:40Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that because the cognit's a true. You will, you write out now, if anybody says, I want to find a red car, go outside. You'll find all the blue cars, the red cars, you'll, your cognitive bias will go, there it is.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:49Sabrina Zohar?

  And what, that's why I'm like, okay, when it comes to the single land, what I really, oh, God, please take this, guys. Start to really think about what changed it for me was how do I want to feel when I'm with this person, right? Like, I want to feel safe, secure. I want to feel understood. I want to be heard that way. Because we're, we're so caught up in the world of all here, here are all the red flags. Here are all the things to avoid. Don't do this, don't do this. But what we want to look at is wait, what, but what am I actually looking for? What is working for me? Yes, I can identify when I go out on dates. No, thank you. Right? Like, I don't need you to choose me. I'm not doing this. This behavior doesn't work for me. But on that flip side, with the healing journey, now we go into the other side of a, oh, wait, now I want to receive, right? Now I want to identify because I, if I wasn't clear on how I wanted to feel with someone, I wouldn't have been with Ryan because I would have just overlooked it and gone, nope, I don't like this.

• 31:34Sabrina Zohar?

  He's too safe. My nervous system, this is boring.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  This is boring.

• 31:37Sabrina Zohar?

  We hear that all the time. And I'm curious, when you hear that, what are your thoughts when someone says healthy equals boring?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Again, I love some of Alison Armstrong's work. And one of the things that she says is she's like, human spirit and human animal. And she's like, if you have too much of the butterflies, the, run, run. Because that primal part of us, again, almost like a part hijacking and taking over. It's the why do I want you? What part of me wants it so bad, needs it so bad? And what am I going to override in my own system? What am I going to default? You know, and so I think the healthy is boring. I want to invite people to look at why? Where did we learn that? What part, what part of us, sure, we can crave variety. And how could we create that with someone that's safe? Because yes, the intensity and the ups and downs and the chaos of something that is not healthy and unsafe can feel addicting and chaotic.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  But really getting true too of yes, if you're comparing this really, really high, high that also came with super low lows to somebody that's stable. But what if we get to be stable and we get to create safety? I would say, I understand what it's like to feel like it's boring.

• 32:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Same.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  I used to be in that place.

• 32:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Same.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  And I just want to invite people to say, what if there was something I didn't understand yet? Or what if there was something else here to feel? And when we really lean in and really establish that safety, because I also think the boring comes when we're not fully in and open and vulnerable yet to get the total good of the healthy. We're at like the early stages, the fringe, like he's nice, he's polite. But what I want to tell people too, is there's a whole nother juicy pot of when this safety is established and we're together in this container, what can come? So I guess one of the things I would say too is be open and curious to what else could be there for you.

• 33:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. I for so long thought, no, no, no, but it has to be a challenge. And it's like, yeah, because that's what I was taught as a kid. It's not. No, you have to have the ups and downs because.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  And we get addicted to that because it's what we grew up thinking, this is love. Love feels like this, this feels good. And it's like, being curious, I think another thing like you're saying, where did this come from? Where did I learn that this imprint is how it's supposed to be or what I deserve or what I want?

• 33:43Sabrina Zohar?

  And yeah, here's another thing, you're gonna have to go through a dopamine withdrawal or you know, you're gonna have to go through a detox of, I don't just need this anticipation. Like that's why when I met Ryan and I was like, no, I am not going to get caught up on the texting. I am going to, that was me taking control because there's a little in me being like, he doesn't like you. No, he doesn't actually, no, you need to, you need to text him because he's not. And I had to be the adult.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  We're reaching, text, reach.

• 34:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Re, give me the assurance, give me the validation.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh my gosh, this just reminds me of you like all of my twenties.

• 34:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Same.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Like I had a good day because they responded. I had a shitty day because they didn't. Like all the external validation and seeking.

• 34:16Sabrina Zohar?

  I literally asked my client the other day, I was like, how's your day today? And they were like, not great. And I was like, because you didn't get a text? And she just looked at me and I was like, oh, I like, I don't know you?

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:23Sabrina Zohar?

  So that I understand. And it's like, when we see that, right? Even just that, off the bat, I don't want you to look at this as like, oh, well, I'm fucked up. That's it because I'm still focusing on the text. It's like, no, maybe we can look at that and invite some curiosity of,

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, okay. So this is a good point. I have some more exploring to do because this causes me intense anxiety. What's causing me the anxiety? Right? Like, we can start to understand that because how you're going to heal now as we talk about moving into a relationship, starts, hate to break it to you, in dating land. You don't get to go to relationship land before you've set that. Well, okay, I take that back. You can absolutely rush into relationship land and then let me know how that works for you. I have gotten more calls than I can count at this point of, you're right. And I don't, I'm not looking for that.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:06Sabrina Zohar?

  But more, exactly, I don't give a fuck. I'd rather be wrong, but it's more of that. I'm like, this ain't my first rodeo. You don't need to move in after six months, y'all. Like, we don't need to be doing that. But nonetheless, when it comes to the healing, single versus in a relationship, while, what we need to look at is, can I continue my healing while I'm also dating? Because we either have single or partnered. But what we don't realize is that middle ground. So I was curious your thoughts on like, where do we see the evolution of growth between the single going into relationship land? Like, how do they differ if they differ?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  So I think the first thing is very similar. Notice what's coming up for us, right? The curiosity across the board, right? Can we be curious? Because so often we're hard on ourselves, there's judgment and it's, what is there for me to see here? Or what am I not seeing? What am I looking at? As we go on dates, what came up? Somebody didn't text. There's the beauty about dating, so many data points that we get to pull in and say, oh, wow, this used to bother me. I'm noticing that it doesn't now. It's, I mean, it's so many opportunities. It's like throwing ourselves in the deep end sort of to swim and saying, okay, this is what I'm noticing. I'm needing a text back. Hmm, getting curious, where's that coming from? What is it bringing up for me? What could I do for that? And like you said, so much is, what can we give to ourselves? Right?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  I, I mean, my pattern was always seeking external validation because I didn't feel good enough. I had a hole and I was looking out there for people to, and it's just a Band-Aid, right? Until, nothing was ever going to fill it. I always thought, you know, I had that syndrome, which somebody has, oh, I'll be happy when.

• 36:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, when this, when this.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  When I'm married, when the thing, when this, oh, it's just LA. I too lived in LA. It was like, okay, well, I'm just over, it's Peter Pan land here. You know, yet many people get married in LA. You know?

• 36:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Same with New York. I mean, I have so many friends that are married from New York. I like San Diego, like, we gotta stop blaming the city.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Right. There's just no one here. There's just, there's just no one here. Maybe it's my picker.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  You know, and it's so interesting, too, as I look back, how many things could have been different? I just didn't communicate. I shut down and I walked away. It was the, I don't even want to ask what this is because it's too scary and maybe you're gonna reject me, so I'll just reject you first and I'll be over here.

• 37:16Sabrina Zohar?

  I loved that game. I played that game in my own version of a way of like, I get, my friends used to call me sabotage. Like, they'd be like, that was, because they would always say like, oh, is he gonna end it? Are you gonna make sure you end it first so that you don't get hurt? Because that was my perception of control. But then when we look at like, okay, you're doing all this healing, right? Boop, boop, and then suddenly, there's a trigger machine. And like, that's a reality. The people you date are going to be great mirrors for you. And like, one thing I just wanted to clarify, not everyone you date has to move into relationship land with you. It's okay to date people and it doesn't work. It's not a waste of your time. If you date someone for two or three months and then one or both of you decide this isn't something you want to pursue, that is the fucking point of dating.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  And what a victory to celebrate when we can communicate that. Because I imagine for many, as I know it was for me,

• 38:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Tough.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  That is a big evolution, to be able to just bravely share what I need and what I want. I was always like, what do you need and want? You know, I don't know, I'm fine.

• 38:09Sabrina Zohar?

  You tell me.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, I had gotten in numerous relationships with people that I never wanted to be in because they liked me. And I'm like, what, like, I look back now and I'm like, what was happening, you know? And so I think in the dating places, yes, there's so much of getting clear on it and then being in this place of, okay, what is coming up? And as it's coming up, can we share? And if it feels scary to share, why, there's more information here. Oh, it doesn't feel safe. Oh, they might leave us. Okay, what else is possible? Ooh, maybe they're not our person. Or what else is possible? What if I share and they do receive it? The level of vulnerability and intimacy and building that can be there and so much, we freak ourselves out of the unknown, you know, and so much comes back to remembering that like, we're safe, we have our back, we're good, it's all gonna be okay.

• 38:55Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's where though, I think the importance of that is the foundation that comes in the single healing land of like, no matter, somebody, my Mosh asked me the other day and she was like, you seem so calm now about the business, like you just seem so much more confident and relaxed, what changed? And I was like, oh, nothing. I said, you know what changed? I finally, for the first time, realized, I don't know what's gonna happen, but you know what I do fucking feel in my gut, that who I am as a person, I trust that I will make it happen. I trust that who this version of myself is, who I've grown into this and who I continue to grow into, oh, I fucking got this, because I started to see proof of like, I did make the right choice. Ooh, I'm glad I did this. Yes, I did that. Confidence doesn't come because you know it's going to work. Confidence comes when you're like, oh, I didn't die, they didn't die, I'm okay. But we add so much

• 39:40Sabrina Zohar?

  to it. And so like, when we talk about, you know, when you're in the early stages of dating, continue your healing work, but now we're in a relationship, right? Like, I know for me, when I went, when I got into, I scooted into relationship land, I looked at it as personally, like, I'm the one with all the issues, I'm the one with all the problems, so I need to go do all this healing and work. And so, like, you know, and then when I came out of it, I was like, oh, I am so fucking good and I got this. She didn't get it. She didn't got this. Because what I ended up realizing was like, I needed to learn my partner. I didn't really understand what made him tick. We were having, you know, little triggers, little moments, but throughout the time, what I did learn while I was healing personally, was to speak up, was to say, hey, you know, that made me feel really shit. Like, when we first started to date, I didn't appreciate that you like, told me to leave

• 40:24Sabrina Zohar?

  at 12, like, what is going on there? And then we had a conversation of, oh, okay, you have football, moving forward, do you mind if I stay until 3 and then I can go, right? We were able to talk, but my healing, as a single woman, got, as I started to get into a relationship, I started to implement that. And then I started to assess, is my partner matching this? Does he have the bandwidth? And then when we realized, hey, you know, we got into the six, seven month mark of, I don't know that word necessarily, communicate, do we want to see a therapist? Together. No, do we need that? You, you, when you have two people that are really invested in making the relationship work, you're both going to be invested in how you want to support each other. But there is a very, for at least for me, a big understanding that I can't heal my partner.

• 41:06Sabrina Zohar?

  My partner can't heal me, but what I can do is create a space where I see him shut down to say, hey, would you like some space? And he says, yes. And I'm like, cool. How about we talk in an hour? That way he feels calm that I respect him. I get to have time to process. Then I get to come back and honor myself to say, let's have this fucking conversation. And he can't hide away from the I'm avoidant thing. It's like, you're right. I processed. I'm here. Now I'm ready for the conversation. But I wanted to hear kind of your thoughts of like, maybe even just your own journey of like, being going from single to then dating to now married to your husband. What do you see healing in a relationship look like?

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's a great question. So there was so much for me to get from there to here. And there still is so much because like you said, we'll think that we did it or we got it and it was there. You know, so for me, there was a lot of individual work and one of the beauty of being in a relationship is the gifts we do get to give each other because it's not anybody's responsibility to heal us. And as partners, when we are conscious and awake, we do get to offer stuff to each other. We do get to offer new evidence, like we talked about, new beliefs, new proof that like I am here and this is what it looks like. And it's an ongoing journey. So I think one of the things, you know, right away that makes things easier for people is not this expectation that it should just work and it should be easy. I think there's such a double standard on that. You know, if I ask clients, I'll say, okay,

• 42:23Speaker 01

  how did you have success in your business? Oh, it took a lot of effort, took a lot of work. How do we get a healthy body? Same thing. How do we, how do you get a healthy relationship? Well, it should just work.

• 42:30Sabrina Zohar?

  It should just be easy.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Oh, why?

• 42:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Who taught us that?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  What, you know, and it's like this reframe that, oh, it takes effort and it takes work. That doesn't mean it's broken. That doesn't mean, but again, those fallacies of like, it should just work. No, it's a living thing. It needs to be nurtured. It needs to be watered. I think one of the most important things to know is a lot of times I'll see people say, oh, well, my last partner or, or they'll even judge themselves. I'm like in kindergarten because I haven't had as many relationships and she's like a senior. And I said, doesn't matter. This is even playing field because even if she was the perfect partner for her last. Partner, you're not that person and we need to know how to be for each other. So one of the things I love with clients that I'll do is I have a relationship cheat sheet where basically we are different people, different species, whether we're masculine,

• 43:15Speaker 01

  feminine, or even same sex, it doesn't matter. We're different people with different operating manuals. And so we make a lot of assumptions of they should know, or they'll just know what I need. No. So this, this relationship cheat sheet says things like, what makes me feel most loved? Because what makes me feel most loved is usually not going to be the same thing that makes you feel most loved, that makes them feel most loved. You know, sometimes people will talk about love languages and love languages is great to know and identify because many people will give love in the way they want to receive. But if we almost thought about the relationship as a bank account, like, are we in the positive? Are we in the negative? When we're trying, some person, some, one time, often a partner can be efforting very hard, doing a lot of things and saying, I'm,

• 43:57Speaker 01

  and then if you come to say to me, I just, you know, I'm not feeling loved, I'm not feeling important. One partner can be very first, like, I don't understand, like, I'm putting in so much effort, I'm so frustrated. And it's like, oh, we just need to get clear on, that's so nice that you do that? That doesn't really register that high for me. But if you could tell me that I look pretty, or that you're never going to leave me, it registers really high. So one of the things I think that's really helpful is just understanding that for each other. Understanding too, that, you know, another question's on it, when I'm dysregulated, the thing that could be most helpful in healing, often we know, or our partner knows for themselves, like, oh, if you could just give me a hug, or if you could just give me space, right? What are these things? And so something

• 44:38Speaker 01

  that's so beautiful is we start to look at that for ourselves. And oftentimes, we haven't identified, we haven't thought about these things, like, oh, what does make me feel loved? What, so not only do we get clarity, our partner gets clarity, and then we switch to paper.

• 44:52Sabrina Zohar?

  What's funny is I, that's, I, those questions, like, what are your love languages to give and receive, right? Because I knew, I was like, I don't want to overlook them. I want to make sure, like, oh, you make me lunch. Oh, right, acts of service. That's your way of showing me love.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Oh, you're showing me, even though for me, I might be like, oh, not that I don't care if you make me lunch, but that's not my, like, number one, right? Like, if you were putting effort, if you could maybe

• 45:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. It's like, or buy me something. And it's like, well, that's some people. So other people, you give a gift and they're like this. I you, all you did was buy me something. And it's like, but that's how I love you. And so I think it's, I love that. It's so important to, and I think what is the main thing is like, get curious, right?

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Curiosity, across the board.

• 45:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Curiosity. And it was like, you know, I had one of my clients saying, I like, I can love her. And it's like, she's in a relationship that it's like, it's so painfully obvious. Her needs aren't met. All she was ever taught was like, you know, you're being too sensitive. Stop it. You're too much. So like, completely understand. But I guess, how do you help people if like, one partner is like, I'm trying to heal and trying to grow and trying to evolve. And then the other one, mm.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think a couple of things. It is possible for one person to create shift and change, and it shifts the whole dynamic. It is possible. We also don't, though, want to get into that place of it's my responsibility only. And like, I can fix this, because then we can stay in something in an unhealthy way too long. Yet, there is truth of owning our piece. And what can we do? Because often, if we shift, or soften, or if lack of safety or control is something, and we learn to communicate in a different way, or, ooh, could I ask for my needs? They may respond to that. Because so often, we get caught in defensiveness, you know, that we become adversaries versus allies. And everybody's trying to like, no, I'm right. They're really just trying to not be bad.

• 46:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Right? When somebody hears, oh, this hurt. No, I didn't. Or I did it because, because what they don't want to hear is, oh, I hurt you. I don't want to hurt the people that I love.

• 46:32Sabrina Zohar?

  If you can't communicate, go to couples therapy. Like, if you need to work with somebody, it's like, have someone that's a practitioner that can say, hey, whoa, she said this, not this. Like, hey, you're, but I think for me, what I also look at is, is like, is this person actually putting an effort? Are they trying to do this work? Or is it just you?

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yes. So I think that's like, an important piece to discern, right? Like, yes, can we do it shift? And maybe it invites them in. But also, too, are their words and actions not aligned? Because somebody can say something all day long, but if they're not willing to do it, to take the step, whatever their version of shift and change is, is it a therapist? Is it a podcast? Is it learning? You know, one of the things I tell Brad, Brad's my husband, is, I don't care how you get there. I just am having this thing. And I'm, I'm hoping that you can have a new awareness, because it gets to shift. Because I don't, we're just not hearing each other here. And it was, hey, if it's with somebody. If it's you listen, you hear it on a podcast, you read it, you phone a friend. I don't care how you get there, but I'm really craving to feel understood in this. And how do we find that? What does that look like for us?

• 47:31Sabrina Zohar?

  And the desire, right? And him like being like, okay, let me figure this out. What works for me? Like Ryan came to his own decision to say, I need to talk to somebody. I need to go to therapy, but he had a desire. He was like, no matter what, I want to make this relationship work. I want to understand you. Like there was a, I created the space of, hey, we're getting to a point now of like me and you just talking about this isn't leading us to where we need to go. And so like I said, yeah, to the point, you can talk to someone, you can do whatever you need to do, but we got to get to this place together. So you tell me how you'd like me to support you in this journey. Otherwise there is, because somebody had asked, like her partner always shuts down and blah, blah. And she was saying, you know, how much of this do I have to accept? And what's toxic versus what's doing the work? And it's like, are you saying changed behavior?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, is there any movement? Because again, movement is good, even if it's small, right? If there's movement and progress, maybe we would hope it would be a giant leap. But if it's small, that still gives us some information. I think the other thing that's important piece for people to look at and a place to start is, do we want the same thing? Do we have a shared vision for the future? Because you know, that's where I'll always start with couples is okay, where are we at? And usually it's, oh, this thing is happening. We're in distress about something and okay, understand. Let's pause for a second. What's the future that we have or the shared vision? Is it the same? Are there big deal breakers? Because if this is coming up now and we don't want the same thing. Hey, as much as we love each other, there's some good here. We got to be honest of this might not be working.

• 48:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Loving enough.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  One of the things that we can clarify in this moment is, is change of value for them? Is growth of value or are they so happy being right where they are? And that doesn't make them bad.

• 49:06Sabrina Zohar?

  No.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  But where are they at? Right?

• 49:09Sabrina Zohar?

  My therapist, I remember once when Ryan and I talked to her and she like, he kept saying, I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. And she looked at him and she finally said, Ryan, it's not that you're not trying, but you know what? We do need to add into this conversation that just because you're trying, doesn't necessarily mean it'll be enough. And that was a reality that, and we both had a conversation of like, no, it is right at this point. But it is a reality to look and say like, for instance, that of if this person says, well, I'm trying and I'm trying. And you're like, yeah, but I'm not seeing the progress. It's been seven months and you consistently keep doing this. Then eventually that's when we have to look, take stock of ourselves of then what am I still doing here? Right? Like, because someone asked, can someone who is healed date someone who is not? And I was like, I didn't love the question because it's like, That's judgmental, right? I'm healed, you're not.

• 49:52Sabrina Zohar?

  But I think this is kind of to our point is like, how far in the journey are you? The discrepancies.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Totally. And I think, you know, again, maybe not worded perfectly, but really like, what if we are further along than someone else, right? It can absolutely work because people too can have done less work, but be less fucked up. Start from a different place, right? And that's fucked up with love. Everyone out there, I don't mean that in a bad way because that's talking about myself. You know, started from a place that needed growth and some people can come from a place of naturally more secure attachment. Or, you know, one of the things too, I feel like so much with attachment language gets thrown out around there, really too, those are labels which can be handy to identify, but really ultimately just point out and highlight where our wounds are.

• 50:34Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Right? And when we heal our wounds, we don't, we're not anxious forever. The one thing I feel like, I always like to just say for people, because people, oh, I'm anxious, oh, I'm this, oh, I'm disorganized. And it's, okay, use it if it's useful, but don't hold on to it like a label of who we are forever because we heal that, we release that, and we get to become something else. This is not, this is not tattooed on us. This is not fixed, right? That is moving with where we're at in the shift in desire. And so I think so much is, do we have a partner who's interested in growth? And then, yes, if they say yes, they say that they want to do it, then I think it's, okay, if we're not seeing that shift, are they capable?

• 51:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Totally.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  And they may want to be capable, but is there something that is blocking that? And are they willing to figure out what that is and do something to move beyond it?

• 51:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  And again, it's not to judge that it's good, bad, right or wrong, but are they at a place where they have the capacity or the capability to do it? And if we see not, then it's just a choice of, oh, maybe this isn't a right match.

• 51:31Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's like, we don't have to put a narrative. We don't have to put a good verse, bad.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  And it wasn't that we're not good enough or weren't worthy enough for them to shift. It's, no, whatever's happening for them or in their system or in this lifetime that maybe is not meant for them, or they're not ready, or they don't want to sit in the discomfort. And that's okay. It's not about us not being enough. It's about them and their story and their piece. I think that's one thing for me too. I always made everything about me.

• 51:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Right? Not good enough, not pretty enough, not whatever. And it's, oh, they're just living their own experience over there.

• 52:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Forget about that.

• 52:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Half the time I'm like, oh, I wasn't even a blip on your screen. Perfect. Glad I made this about me. And I think the last kind of thing I wanted to focus on was someone said, how to keep healing while supporting your partner who also needs, who's also like, needs to heal and in that process. And at least for me, I'll just say personally how I have been handling that, and I'm curious your thoughts. Is one, I've been very curious. I stay incredibly curious and after therapy I'll come down and be like, hey, do you want to talk about your session? Did you learn anything in your session that you want to share with me? Is there anything I can do to support you further? Right? And then vice versa, like after therapy, I'll come down, same questions. He's like, did you learn anything about yourself today? Is there anything you want to share with me? Like, I am open. I love you. I want to know how I can help. And so I think for me, at least, when it comes to two people, you know, that are like doing the work, it's like, all of us are, I hope all of us are on this perpetual journey of

• 52:47Sabrina Zohar?

  self-development. And it's really important to, you don't have to do the work for your partner. You don't have to, and if your partner says, I don't want to share that with you, respect their fucking boundaries. If they say, I'm keeping that private with my therapist, allow them to have that space, right? Like, sometimes I'm like, I don't want to share with you what I talked about. Like, it's my thing. But it's also about just being there, I think personally, being there for them, calling people out of like, hey, you know, babe, you're doing that thing again that we've talked about. I think you're back on your loop, right? With love, bringing them back to, where are we now? And that was just my experience. But I was curious, your thoughts on like, how do you handle that dynamic when you're going through your shit, they're going through theirs?

• 53:26Speaker 01

  So much, I think, is like grace, kindness, benefit of the doubt. You know, and one of the things too is curiosity, always. I feel like you covered that great, though, but that's something that is so, so, so vital, because we are meaning-making creatures. And so if we don't tell our partner why we do something, they're making assumptions, you know, and we get into, so if we think about it again as a bank account, something that's nice, that makes it easy with relationship is, are we negative? Are we positive? Are we making enough deposits to keep us in a positive place, which the Gottmans call positive sentiment override, or when it starts to get low, negative sentiment override. And how that switches is your partner comes home, they're a little grouchy. We're here in positive. I'm like, oh, they had a bad day, right? I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I don't make it about me. We're in negative sentiment over, ugh, he's always so unhappy, right? We create this story, we create this narrative, now we're on it,

• 54:11Speaker 01

  right? So, so much, I think, in relationship that can be really healthy too, is what are our rituals of connection? What are we doing? Where are we honoring our time? Are we having date nights? Are we having check-ins? Where, especially if people have a hard time communicating or sharing their truth, a scheduled check-in is so beautiful, because it's like this safe container where They maybe know something's gonna happen, you know? And then also too, we get to share. And what I love for that and a framework that I love that I think is so great is you sit down. First, you start with appreciation, just telling them something like this is what I love. It does two great things. Number one, if I'm not in a place feeling very appreciative, it forces my brain to find something again that we see what we look for. So it helps me like, oh, I guess he did do that, like in a good way, you know? And if they're in a place where they're having a story about me that I'm not appreciative,

• 54:56Speaker 01

  or I don't notice things, or I don't, it helps combat that for them, right? So we're getting like a twofer there. Then the second part is where you could offer your request or a complaint, you know? But we do it in a way, it's like Oreo cookie. Right, sandwich it. We're gonna sandwich it, right? So first is this, how do we lower barriers, right? We can do this appreciation, we can, because it's about getting back into connection, right? How can we get in connection? Because when we're connected, it's easier to solve problems. When we're disconnected, we're in the loop, you know? And the disconnection is the enemy, not each other, right? So how do we remember that? How do we get back? Because one of the things I think that's so important too on this topic is it's not about not disconnecting. It's not about not having fights. It's about we have rupture, repair and reconnection. And how fast can we start to go through that?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Because in the beginning, a lot of times we'll rupture and we spend a lot of time here. Yeah. And then we're repairing. So it's no, that's a natural piece of it. We're not always gonna agree. We're not never gonna have things. We're gonna have things, but they don't have to be so big. And we go through this process faster. So it ruptures and we go, oh, repair, reconnection, we're back in reconnection. So it's sharing that appreciation. And then it's the, what's my request? Or the thing that I could really use, the thing, and also too, just how you frame it. You do this. I know you've talked about that a lot first. How is it I statements? And how can we make it a request? Because it is a request. We are needing something. And the other thing that's beautiful about a request is then the other partner is clear what you actually need. Because if I just say, I don't feel loved.

• 56:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  What do they do with that?

• 56:23Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like a baby. You're like, you crunch, do you need food? Do you need to shit? What do you need? What do you need?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  So we just need to tell them, because when we can tell them, people want to make us happy. Right? They want it to work out. But that's where like the relationship cheat sheet and just this operating manual of like, hey, it's great. And so it's that request of the, hey, you know, earlier this morning, when you were on the phone, you didn't notice me, I would really love it if. Just offer it, offer and ask. Because when we ask, okay, set them up for success. Set them up to be our hero. They want to be. And then the third piece, which I love, is we say what we could do differently. Right? And the piece that I could have done different, or the thing that I could do to help support that is when I asked, I could notice my tone. Because the piece that's great is when we take ownership and accountability, it's kind of like an olive branch.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  It's, it's harder for someone to come back, not they can't, as defensive when we say, and this is my piece, I noticed what I can do too. You know? And so it's this having that container where we're communicating and really to check and sort of force us to communicate if we're not very good at that. And one of the places too, that I think is a great exercise for people to start, is start with just 21 days of appreciation. Say what I appreciate, you mirror it back, what you appreciated about me was, yep. And just get in the habit of sharing and sharing something that's positive. Right? And the big thing for people to remember is the more we can stay connected, the more we can have fun and remember the good, all of that, problems are easier solved in that state. When we're dysregulated is just not the time.

• 57:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, 100%. I don't think Ryan and I have ever raised our voices at each other because we don't allow that. Like, we will stop and if one of us sees each other, even if I, if I'm getting heated, he'll be like, hey, what can I do for us? Like, we're, we're getting, I think we're getting dysregulated here. Like, do you want us to go for a walk? Like, how can we repair this? And I think for anybody like to button this episode up, like, I think the moral of the story here is if you're dating somebody and your response to me after listening to this whole thing is, well, the guy, the person I'm dating wouldn't let me say that. It's like, well, then that's the conversation we need to have is what are you doing dating people that aren't having adult relationships, that don't know how to communicate like an adult, even if you're not, right? Like, even if it's, we're learning it. But I want to see a willingness to learn, to grow, not because you're about to leave

• 58:34Sabrina Zohar?

  and this person's trying to just get you back because they don't want to be alone, but truly no longer self-abandoning your wants, needs, and desires and taking up space, not just in the dating phase, but in the relationship as well. I wouldn't have the relationship I have if I didn't take up space and allow myself to say, "As a kid, you weren't, but as an adult, you're allowed."

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Dude, what a great fucking conversation. I sure hope that we were able to help some people.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  I hope so. And just remembering, everybody out there, that yes, if you're in one of those relationships, we don't have to settle.

• 59:04Sabrina Zohar?

  No.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  We don't have to accept it.

• 59:05Sabrina Zohar?

  You don't.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Like, you're amazing, you deserve the world, and it's possible, and it's out there.

• 59:09Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that. Where can people find you, dude?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yes, they can find me on Instagram at SamanthaHunter, and that is Samantha with two Ms. And it will say Samm Murphy is my name, because I got married, and there's like a lot of names, and it's really actually a lot of work to get it shifted. And people, when I say that, always say, "Oh, congratulations, you just got married." I'm like, "It's two years ago."

• 59:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Yes.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Well, it was a little bit recent. And then my website is SamHunter, and that is Sam with two Ms. also. And I would love to hear from everybody out there, and however I can help and support. And thank you so much for having me on.

• 59:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course, dude, yeah. DM, well, we're gonna link everything. Let us know what you think. Put a comment in the episode. Let us know your thoughts, and then we'll be able to do more.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yes, we want to hear from you. Give you more of what you want.