Lin-Manuel Miranda

We throw words like genius around but it's hard to argue using that word around Lin-Manuel Miranda, the man who in large part can be credited with such pop culture juggernauts as IN THE HEIGHTS, ENCANTO, and of course HAMILTON. Here, on his first visit to Happy Sad Confused he talks about it all, from coming full circle with MOANA to why he turned down a Spider-Man villain role, to why success didn't always fulfill him. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun. Gator Light, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. Gator Light: Hydrates Faster Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  I've been seeing my strength since I was 19, but like, at moments in my life. Like, I'm not someone who goes every week. And the first time was when I broke up with my high school college girlfriend and was like, "Who am I?", and here's all the stuff that's been building up in my brain. And you put it out on the table and you go, "Oh, everyone goes through that. Got it." The second time I called him was in between Off-Broadway and Broadway in the Heights. My show I'd spent my twenties writing was on a stage, and I feel the same. It didn't fix it. It didn't fix the hole in me. What's going on?

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, a first-time guest, an absolute legend, Lin-Manuel Miranda, in the Heights, Hamilton, all the way up to his new effort. Yes, Moana is back in live-action form, and Lin is a huge part of it. I'm so thrilled he's on the show. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, however you're doing it. I appreciate you guys. And remember, before we get to the main event today, a quick reminder: Check out our Patreon. You get early access to every single episode of Happy, Sad, Confused, and you get special access to our live events in New York and LA. You get autographed merch, lots of cool bonuses over there. Patreon.com/happysadconfused. Check it out.

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  All right, so today's episode is one that's been a long time coming. Needless to say, I've wanted to have Lin-Manuel Miranda on the show for a long while. For whatever reason, it's never happened. Not only that, I've literally never spoken to the man before, which is kind of surprising, given all the junkets I've done, all the films I've covered, everything. I'm happy to report- He more than lived up to his reputation as not only a guy that has an amazing body of work to talk about, but is just the genuine article. Sweet, smart, funny, all the things we like in a Happy Say Confused guest, and we cover a lot of territory in this. Of course, we talk about Moana returning to that film and this new live-action form that's now out in theaters. But of course, we also talk about In the Heights and Hamilton and all the opportunities that came with Hamilton.

• 2:37Josh Horowitz?

  There's an amazing story for you Marvel heads out there of the role he turned down in a Marvel movie that will shock people. First time he's ever talked about that. A tease of his next film he just directed, other musicals that he weighs in on, Good, Bad, and the Ugly. There's a ton of this conversation. So I know you guys are gonna enjoy it. I certainly did. Without any further ado, here is me and Lin-Manuel Miranda. I'm very excited. Lin-Manuel Miranda, you're on the podcast. You're on Happy Say Confused.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  I'm so thrilled to be here. I'm a fan of the podcast. I'm thrilled to be on it.

• 3:10Josh Horowitz?

  I am a huge fan of yours. It is kind of strange, actually. Our paths have literally never crossed. We were just talking about mutuals and commonalities. Both grew up in New York City, both loved Weird Al growing up.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 3:24Josh Horowitz?

  You've got a few more awards on your shelf than me. I'm not gonna hold it against you.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:28Josh Horowitz?

  But we have a lot to cover. Congratulations on Moana.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:32Josh Horowitz?

  First of all, can we talk a little bit about some commonalities? We were just talking a little bit. You're still a city kid at heart, I would imagine.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I am.

• 3:39Josh Horowitz?

  Are you living close to where you grew up in the Heights?

• 3:41Speaker 01

  I live 20 blocks from where I grew up. I moved all the way down from Dykeman Street to Washington Heights, from Inwood to Washington Heights, so I'm still up there.

• 3:49Josh Horowitz?

  Did you ever do the LA thing? Did you ever have to?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  No. The only time I'd gone to LA was for work. My first time there was shooting an arc on House.

• 4:00Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  As an actor. And I stayed, this is how green I was to LA. I stayed in Lamont Rose Hotel. But I read it wrong, and I thought it was the lemon tea rose. You went vertell.

• 4:14Josh Horowitz?

  You broke it up a little too.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then I remember my then girlfriend, now wife, came to visit me because that was five weeks I was, that was like a two hour premiere that I was on for season six. And I went to pick up my Vanessa at LAX and I got lost.

• 4:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  And I found myself in South Central, but I played so much Grand Theft Auto San Andreas that I had like a mental map because this is pre Waze, this is pre GPS.

• 4:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, up the hill is close to, like I knew up and to the left would get me to West Hollywood.

• 4:45Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  And I literally used my Grand Theft Auto San Andreas skills. I was like, oh, that's where I started a gang with Smoke. That's where, like, I knew San Andreas, like, got me around.

• 4:54Josh Horowitz?

  Video game, uh, video game service well. I don't have a driver's license, unlike you. I'm really hardcore.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, that's hardcore New York living.

• 5:01Josh Horowitz?

  I do feel like though, my years of playing like pole position and road blasters, I could drive if me and Dean.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Cruisin' world.

• 5:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's not really nitro boosters. I just have to break that to you. It doesn't help you in LA.

• 5:13Josh Horowitz?

  That's very sad.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:14Josh Horowitz?

  What was your version to bring it to connect to Moana of going beyond the reef? Like, what was the street you didn't go past growing up? Like, were you kind of like close to?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Well, you know, it's, um, I grew up across the street from Inwood Hill Park, which was like the last natural parkland in Manhattan. And I grew up in the eighties and it was wild in the eighties. Like, I would be in the middle of the woods, like Calvin and Hobbes-ing around, talking to myself, and I'd see entire chunks of stolen cars. Like, I was like, how'd they get up here?

• 5:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Um, so, you know, it was, it was wild. Like, I kind of grew up in the days of like good block, bad block.

• 5:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Like, I remember like my street was cool and I was friends with like a lot of the kids on my block. And then like, it was like, don't go to Academy. Academy's rough.

• 5:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  And I remember like hiding in the snow once when the kids from Academy were like coming around.

• 6:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Um, so like, it's, it's that kind of New York existence where you learn block by block where to go and where not to go.

• 6:10Josh Horowitz?

  Did your parents give you a lot of freedom? Like, did you feel?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I was definitely a go outside kid.

• 6:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  And like, there was a whistle.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  You know, I'm like, I'm the generation of like, your dad had a whistle and if you heard that whistle, it was time to go home.

• 6:21Josh Horowitz?

  How much different? existence is it for your kids growing up the kids of Lin-Manuel Miranda a public figure I you seem like a very grounded human being but there are also some trappings that go

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean honestly, pretty great because I'm in the neighborhood I grew up in everyone like and when you're there it's not a big deal like yeah people see me with my headphones on they go he's writing and they leave me alone like I'm like you know like in a fiddler on the roof and they're like and then there are the special types in our village like I'm the dude walking around with the headphones in the background

• 6:54Josh Horowitz?

  Let him create

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Just let him just let him cook and but like my kids you know my my kids have a lot of freedom in in the world and they you know my my in-laws live you know like on our block my parents are 20 blocks away so that we actually do have like a mini village uptown

• 7:12Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing so talk to me a little bit about you referenced this just now like out in the world it sounds like you know again I know what New York is like New York New Yorkers are pretty cool about their celebrities but like I would imagine though you still do okay yes maybe they accept you and say like let you let him create and let him cook but do you get like requests you get quoted do they want to sing to you do they want you to sing to them like what do you get when somebody does want something

• 7:35Speaker 01

  I'll tell you my favorite New York experience and I always keep it at the front of my mind and it happened around like the peak of Hamilton mania where everyone not only like knew who we were but where we were like we were in that building doing that show I was I think I was outside of Glass House Tavern one of those like bars around Times Square and I was waiting for my ride to pick me up and I have to get up to tell you this story and a lady two people were walking by me in opposite directions and the lady walks by me and she goes say you're famous and the guy walking in the opposite direction saw her say that looks at me and goes no you're not

• 8:13Josh Horowitz?

  New York in a nutshell

• 8:14Speaker 01

  And I always hold that very close I'm like say you're famous no you're not

• 8:20Josh Horowitz?

  encapsulates fame really well doesn't it

• 8:22Speaker 01

  It does it does I I think I have a pretty normal existence I get recognized I normally people are pretty happy to see me and then like there's always a level of like and then I see like Dwayne walking around and he's got eight cameras and he can't go outside and I'm like I'm cool I'm like really cool where I am I get to take the A you know I get to take it home it's usually the fastest way to get around and like no one bugs me

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 9:24Speaker 05

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime, you're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

• 10:08Speaker 05

  It's high drama, cozy vibes, and absolute couch detective energy. Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe. Search Murder She Watched wherever you listen to podcasts, and let's solve this thing together.

• 10:26Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so let's contextualize a little bit, bringing it home to Moana, which we're promoting, the new live-action version. Your buddy Tommy Kail directing it. It must be very emotional and wonderful to go on this journey with him.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  It is.

• 10:38Josh Horowitz?

  But first, let's go back to the first Moana, and where you were at when this gig came around. So, obviously, in the Heights it happened, this is kind of like when Hamilton is still bubbling up. It hasn't hit Broadway yet when you...

• 10:50Speaker 01

  It hasn't even hit Off-Broadway yet.

• 10:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I was one of many musical theater composers who, like, interviewed for the job. And I remember meeting Tom McDougall, who now is head of music...

• 11:01Speaker 01

  For Disney, but was head of just Disney Animation Music.

• 11:04Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Uh, at the time and um, I just, you know, I was, I was really excited to even be considered truly like I, I, I knew some of the other people they were interviewing and I, I went in and, and again, like Little Mermaid was like my, that's like my, that's my rosebud slay.

• 11:22Josh Horowitz?

  It's all in that, that's the text.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  It's like a Caribbean number happens in the middle of a Disney animated movie and my life is never the same.

• 11:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I was like, I didn't know this was allowed.

• 11:32Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  I was like, this sounds like Caribbean, it's a calypso number in the middle of like, and Disney movies were always like, like very grand and very orchestral, but this felt very fresh and sort of exploded my brain. So I went and met with, uh, you know, uh, Ron and John who directed the original Little Mermaid, were directing Moana.

• 11:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  And I said, I'm here because of you. Like, if nothing else, I'm really happy to have this conversation because I'm here because of you. And your incredible movie that exploded my brain.

• 12:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Um, and then I got the gig, um, and I'll never forget, the day I got the gig was the day I found out I was gonna be a father. Um, and my wife, uh, is an attorney and she had a business trip. So she like whispered in my ear, I think I'm pregnant and then got on a plane. I was still like half asleep. And then I found out I got this job and with that job offer, came a one-way plane ticket to New Zealand. Cause the entire creative team was already, they'd already hired Opataia. They'd already hired Mark Benchina.

• 12:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Um, they already had two great songwriters there and they were looking for someone who could really tell story with music.

• 12:34Josh Horowitz?

  Got it.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Um, and so I like flew to New Zealand, had this sort of shotgun marriage with Opataia and Mark that went, thank goodness, really well. Like our first time together was like a four-hour car trip to a studio in New Zealand. And we just played each other music and like not even Pacific Island music, just like songs we liked.

• 12:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  So we had a shared musical language by the time we got to the studio and I'm sitting on like, I'm gonna be a father. And I haven't even had a chance to like celebrate it with my wife. So it was like there, this very magical week and it was, you know, it was probably about a year before Hamilton started off Broadway.

• 13:11Josh Horowitz?

  Dwayne signed on, like, were you writing songs like You're Welcome with Dwayne in mind?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yes, so it kind of is all happening at the same time. I wrote the Moana songs before we had Ali'i, but Dwayne was signed on to play Maui. And that mixes like the ultimate mix of like what I know about the actor and what I learned about the world, right? Like, I am a wrestling fan. I can like, you know, I can recite rock soliloquies. It doesn't matter what you think, right? So I literally went on YouTube when I found out he was playing it and just got a sense of his vocal range. I typed in "the rock singing" on YouTube. And it's a lot of cuts of him as a heel, pulling out a guitar, being like, "Chicago sucks." Or like whatever town he was in, and he's trying to rile them up.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  But the thing that was always impressive about was he was always like a heel babyface. Like, he would be, he would curse wrestlers out to their face. He'd curse out entire cities, and you loved him for it. He had this persona that was the lovable arrogant Superman.

• 14:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  And so I wrote, so You're Welcome was the first thing that popped into my head. I was like, "You're welcome for humanity."

• 14:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And then, and then the meat of the lyrics is research. It's, you know, Maui is the Prometheus in these Pacific island myths. He brings them fire, he brings them grass, he brings them coconut trees and coconuts.

• 14:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  In different stories, and depending on an island, each island, like each version of Maui is different. And so we kind of coalesce the greatest hits to write this braggadocio song.

• 14:49Josh Horowitz?

  So, jumping to where we're at today, when this comes back around, I mean, you know, these are challenging, interesting things, you know, puzzles to unlock, these live-action versions of these things. Because you want to kind of like honor what folks grew up with. You want to do that. You also want to make it worth doing. What's the reason? What's the why?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is that something you and Tommy discussed a lot?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And, and again, like, people ask me, "What was your role as producer?" And I said, "I had one note for Tommy's producer." I said, "If it's under two hours..." You win the game. They're all too long.

• 15:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Every live action.

• 15:26Josh Horowitz?

  Bless you.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Our kids have to go to the bathroom.

• 15:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  They're kids.

• 15:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, doesn't need to be the Odyssey.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  I was like, it doesn't need to be Odyssey. It was 90 minutes. Like, you're adding fat if it's too long.

• 15:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So I said that to him. But also, his big why was like, it's one thing to animate this part of the world that never gets to see themselves on screen. It's another thing to give jobs to

• 15:46Josh Horowitz?

  That's true.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  hundreds of Pacific Islander actors.

• 15:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  And choreographers and seamstresses. And, I mean, just like, across the board.

• 15:58Josh Horowitz?

  Hundred percent.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Hire this part of the world. Not represent this part of the world in an animated movie, but see them on screen. And again, like, being on that set, like, I was in Motonui when they were filming Where You Are. I was there for most of the musical numbers. And not since In the Heights had I seen a cast where we'd yell "cut", and then they would just all kind of keep singing.

• 16:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  People are singing their own songs from their respective islands, like, to keep each other entertained between setups. People were so proud to represent their heritage and their ancestry. And so, that's the why.

• 16:30Josh Horowitz?

  And you hit upon at some point the idea, and this often happens, where there's a new musical number added to these things. But, I mean, again, the why here, correct me if I'm wrong, is connecting the generations a bit.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 16:40Josh Horowitz?

  Right?

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And frankly, like, the fact that, honestly, like, I don't think a lot of people, like, a lot of people discovered Moana at home.

• 16:52Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Like, there's a reason, like, that was like the top-streamed movie in 2020.

• 16:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  It's still near the top of the streaming charts, like, every year. And so, you know, this is an enormous big-screen experience. And Tommy delivered,

• 17:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  like, something that belongs on a big screen. This does not feel like the actors acting the animated movie. It is its own giant, gorgeous, colorful, big-screen experience. So I'm excited for folks to bring their families to see it on the big screen and hear it in Dolby surround.

• 17:20Josh Horowitz?

  Do you hear from friends when one of your songs becomes like these crazy earworms? Like, when, like, when, you know, Moana is on repeat? Like, do friends say, like, "I love you, this movie's great, but my kid is also has watched this 20 times in a row, and I need a break"?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yes. And it's funny, I

• 17:39Speaker 01

  You also get DMs from people, like my friends, sure.

• 17:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  But like the people you don't know that start texting you. Like I remember after Mufasa came out. Oh, no, it was it was it was Encanto and Taika Waititi was like, send me a DM like you motherfucker. We don't talk about Bruno on a loop in our house. And that was and like he was the like canary in the coal mine.

• 18:03Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  So like I get this like DM from Taika who I've met and I'm friendly with. I don't like know that guy.

• 18:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  And like, he's like, you son of a bitch.

• 18:10Josh Horowitz?

  And then he was speaking for the world. That was to come.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  He was speaking for the world, that was. So he was the first to write me. But yeah, I mean, a week doesn't go by that I don't get a video of a classroom singing How Far I'll Go.

• 18:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I mean, it's it has never really gone away.

• 18:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  And that's very special.

• 18:26Josh Horowitz?

  You weren't able to do Moana 2. You were working on Mufasa at the time. Is there and Dwayne said that there is talk, there's some development on Moana 3. Would you be potentially involved?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I'm past that. I want Moana 8. I want Moana Presents Hobbs and Shaw. I think Moana 3 should be called Tokyo Drift. Like it's about family.

• 18:44Josh Horowitz?

  Every third film should have Tokyo Drift.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Should have Tokyo Drift. No, I mean, honestly, like I think they had such success with Moana 2 that I think honestly, the secret sauce of the Moana animated scores are really Mark Benchina and Opataia.

• 18:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  You know, Opataia for me is the Lego M of the Moana world. Like everything that comes out of him is so authentic to the world. And, you know, he had a big hand in in Moana 2 as well. And I think as long as Opataia is involved.

• 19:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Like they're gonna sound great and they're gonna represent that part of the world really beautifully.

• 19:15Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you're so much a part of the Disney family, obviously. You've done a lot of work with them. Are you actively working on other Disney projects that I just don't know about yet?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Am I? It's a good question. I think.

• 19:27Josh Horowitz?

  Like, how many projects? We'll get to Okta, which you just wrapped the directing.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  I don't have anything right now currently. I know that.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  There's a world in which I would love Encanto to come to a Broadway stage. I think that one uniquely lends itself to being onstage. And I think they're waiting for me to be ready. I'm not ready.

• 19:47Josh Horowitz?

  You've got a full docket.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  I've got some stuff on my plate. But I think with time, that could be a really beautiful stage show because it's this family in this house. And there's a world in which that, whatever happens onstage, like that house can surprise us in lots of different ways. I can see that one in a way that's really exciting. But there's nothing formal. There's no one attached or anything. But really, that's kind of it. That's it for my Disney docket. I don't have anything up my sleeves.

• 20:15Josh Horowitz?

  I know you're always asked about the Hamilton movie. And you've said, like, there's no rush. Like, you're a fan of, like, waiting when this life has lived its life in theater and around the country, et cetera. Do you think, like, down the road, though, even of, like, would Tommy be the one to direct? Would you want to direct? Have you even contemplated what that treatment would be?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  You know what I'm looking forward to? I'm open to my, like, Andrew Lloyd Webber, like, let the directors do whatever they want renaissance. You know, for me, it's been...

• 20:45Josh Horowitz?

  You want the Jellicle Ball version of Hamilton?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  The Jellicle Ball. I would go to that show every night if I could. I'm guest judging again. I was like, is anyone guest judged twice? Because I just want to go back and be around Skimble Shanks. But I think that thing is so brilliant, and it's not something he would have come up with. So, you know, I never say never because I don't know what director's going to come along and have some idea that unlocks it in a totally different way. You know, we're doing, In the Heights is getting some performances in New York for the first time since the original run at City Center this fall. And really, one of the reasons that exists is because David Mendizabal, who directed Mexodus off-Broadway, I thought did such an incredible job with that show that I was like, oh, I'm very curious to see what David will do with In the Heights.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  And so, Kiar and I were really excited. We went the same night, and we were really excited to see, like, what this artist does with this material that, like, we had our shot at. And we're really proud of the show and the movie. And like, what do you want to do?

• 21:47Josh Horowitz?

  Can we go back a little bit more about influences? Because I know a lot of them. You've talked about, obviously, the musicals you grew up with. You've talked about hip-hop. You've talked about Weird Al. Outside of that stuff, because that stuff's, I feel like, well-covered. Like, were you also like a genre kid? Like, were you reading comics? Were you reading fantasy novels? Like, what else kind of filled your brain when you were a kid?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  I mean, like, everything. I was such a sponge. I'm the kind of person who, like, if I read a book by someone and I really like the book, I then go read everything that person wrote. Like, I remember being assigned "I Know Why the Cage Bird Sings" by Maya Angelou in ninth grade English, and I went to the library and read every Maya Angelou autobiography, and thank God she wrote four or five of them.

• 22:28Josh Horowitz?

  Just like every other ninth grader. I'm gonna read the collective works of Maya Angelou.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I have, like, old songs that are adaptations of her poems. Like, I had my Maya Angelou phase. I, um, my wife and I, one of the things we bonded over when we started dating was that we were both, like, Stephen King completists.

• 22:44Josh Horowitz?

  Really?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  And we read the Dark Tower series, I don't think, was done when we started dating, so we read it together to catch up. We are in the middle of the Brandon Sanderson Stormlight. Those things are each a thousand some odd pages. She's ahead of me. She's on book four. I am, like, struggling through the flashbacks in book three. But, and he ends them so good that you're like, "Oh, God, what's gonna happen?" So, yeah, like, we're, like, we, that's like our lane together, is like the fantasy stuff. But I remember reading Lord of the Rings and comics.

• 23:17Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, were you a Lord of the Rings kid?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was not like a Magic the Gathering kid. I tripped over those kids while they were on the floor playing the cards.

• 23:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  In high school, I would always never see them around the corner. But, uh, yeah, no, like, that's been, but like, Stephen King was like a thing we bonded over big time when we started dating.

• 23:33Josh Horowitz?

  Later on, I mean, the Potter books were happening when we were young adults. Like, were you, you were heavily into Potter?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  I read the first three at jury duty. I remember, it was like a book per day, and it was around the time the fourth one was coming out. And so I sort of hopped on the train right as it was getting good.

• 23:48Josh Horowitz?

  I think you told Emma once in an interview that the way Harry first met Draco influenced a bit of Hamilton.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. It's, um... In the sense that like, Hamilton meets another person who's very much like him.

• 24:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Like, he meets Burr getting off the boat, right, in our version of it, obviously. And Burr gives him the opposite of the lesson he wants to learn, right? Like Draco says to Harry, like, "Make sure you stick to the right kind around here." And, you know, Burr says to Hamilton, "Talk less, smiles more." And then Hamilton sees his friends, he goes, "No, I'm actually gonna hang with these guys."

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so, yes, I guess in that version, Lafayette is our Ron.

• 24:30Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Jumping around pop culture, you're a West Wing fan.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 24:34Josh Horowitz?

  What impact did that make on your life, that you literally played the West Wing?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, let me pause here.

• 24:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Tommy snuck a West Wing reference into this movie.

• 24:41Josh Horowitz?

  Wait, tell me, remind me.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Maui hits the beach and he gets on his boat and he goes, "That's what I remember." That's Leo McGarry's alcoholism line, and he snuck it into a Disney movie.

• 24:53Josh Horowitz?

  Five stars, five stars all the way. You even, like, played some of the theme, I think, ending Hamilton when you walked off.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  They surprised me with the theme, yeah. On my, on my final bounce, they played the West Wing theme.

• 25:04Josh Horowitz?

  So, was that just the Sorkin dialogue? Was that just the idealism of that group?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I fell in love with it on, I didn't see it in real time. It was on, like, Bravo reruns back before Bravo was all reality all the time.

• 25:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  They would show West Wing at 11 a.m. Oh, back when I had cable, I had cable, kids. I'm really millennial, I'm a geriatric millennial.

• 25:24Josh Horowitz?

  Have you cut the cord, no, no cable anymore?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I'm the last one, it's me.

• 25:27Josh Horowitz?

  I had it, just us.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's me and Pat Kiernan on New York One. I'm watching cable.

• 25:32Josh Horowitz?

  Reading the papers to you every morning.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And so, so, yeah, no, I, I fell in love with it watching the reruns and then I kind of caught up to it as it was happening. Then they elected a Latino president and I was like, "Well, this is my favorite show for life." So, yeah, so, I, yeah, it is that dialogue and dialogue as music would really kind of made me tune in.

• 25:51Josh Horowitz?

  And were you a comic book kid? I mean, like, any New York kid, were you with a Spider-Man fan?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yes, but like, I can't claim to be like the completist. Buddy James Monroe Iglehart can, like, tell you every variant plot. Like, I'm like a basic, like, I have the four Death of Superman comics.

• 26:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's what I was saying.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  That was a big... Deal. I was a big Spider-Man fan.

• 26:11Josh Horowitz?

  Todd McCarland run back then.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, any New York centered superhero I was very into.

• 26:17Josh Horowitz?

  I was doing the math. You did say once that you turned down a Marvel role. Summer of 2016 when you were leaving Hamilton. I did my due diligence. I did some research.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Can you guess it?

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I think I can guess. I'm gonna guess it's Spider-Man Homecoming. They were shooting.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Josh Horowitz?

  It was that. And then partwise, is it like Martin Starr's?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  I would have been so miscast.

• 26:39Josh Horowitz?

  Is that the role?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  It's not Martin Starr.

• 26:41Josh Horowitz?

  Is it Vulture? Is it the Michael?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  It was Vulture. It was Vulture and Kevin Feige told me the entire plot over the phone. And I was like, oh, and then they get to the door and it's her dad. And I went, oh.

• 26:59Josh Horowitz?

  Again, you're the canary in the coal mine.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  I was, I was really the canary in the coal mine. And I said, when does it shoot? And he goes, basically the moment you step offstage in Hamilton. And I went, well, I would really like to, I love these movies, but I would really like to stay married.

• 27:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  So I cannot do this. And I mean, God, that would have been terrible.

• 27:17Josh Horowitz?

  No, it would have been great in a different way.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  No, Michael Keaton was perfect. Like they found exactly who they needed.

• 27:22Josh Horowitz?

  That scene in the car between you and Tom?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it would have been. And I'm very glad because I, you know, Michael Keaton in that was perfect. I have no regrets. I needed a vacation so badly. So it was not life right. And I, I think I would have been deeply miscast in it.

• 27:40Josh Horowitz?

  So speaking of that, we're talking on a very interesting day. Do you know what today is? Today's July 9th.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 27:46Josh Horowitz?

  Is that day meaning anything to you?

• 27:48Speaker 01

  It's when we started previews, right?

• 27:50Josh Horowitz?

  10 years ago to this day was your last performance.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 27:54Josh Horowitz?

  In Hamilton, stepping off that stage.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  How about that?

• 27:57Josh Horowitz?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  That is crazy.

• 27:59Josh Horowitz?

  So we kind of already referenced it a little bit, but like that is a moment. That is a huge shift.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:04Josh Horowitz?

  You're coming off of like a run like no one has ever had, basically.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm not playing Walter.

• 28:10Josh Horowitz?

  And did not.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  By the way, though, Kevin does say, he goes, when I told you that over the phone, that's when I knew the movie was gonna work. Because of your reaction. So I take, that's my little footnote in history was me going, oh.

• 28:21Josh Horowitz?

  He should always call you with every plot just to test it out.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  He should.

• 28:26Josh Horowitz?

  So you've talked about this shift, this amazing kind of strange moment that very few people, I mean, people have, but you had really the ultimate version of it, where like, you come off of Hamilton and you have this world of opportunity. And that is a blessing and it is also a curse in some ways. Did you have a mantra, like what you wanted to, what you want to do with your life and career coming off that stage on July 9th, 10 years ago?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Sure. And it came out of a very real conversation I had with Vanessa where it was like, hey, we don't have to work to pay the rent anymore.

• 28:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Like, and that's a crazy experience that I'm incredibly grateful for to be able to have that conversation in the first place. So it was sort of like, it's not the what do we have to do, it's like, what do we want to do? And a couple of things. One, my first love was movies and directing movies. I was a kid with a camcorder in the 1980s and then a, you know, high eight camcorder when that happened. And so I really, like, went to college to study film and theater and then like, fell into theater because it was financially more feasible than studying film. It's like, I can't afford to see your film, so I'm just gonna make a lot of theater. And so I really kind of treated the years after being in Hamilton as like, the film school I couldn't afford to go to.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  So I went to work with Rob Marshall in Mary Poppins Returns, not because I had some everlasting love for Mary Poppins, but, I mean, who doesn't love Mary Poppins, but because I wanted to watch Rob Marshall direct a big musical movie.

• 29:56Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  And I learned a lot. And then year two of that film school is working with Tommy on Fosse Verden, where we get to make, you know, hours of TV about the guy who was a consummate theater maker and a consummate filmmaker at the same time. And how that happened, and how he was able to do that with Gwen Verdon. And then year three is really John Chu and In the Heights and watching someone else adapt my work. And living in my neighborhood and getting to walk to set in a different part of the neighborhood every morning and, and...

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And I learned a lot from all three of those directors. Like, I felt ready to direct Tic Tic Boom by the time I'd been through those experiences. Rob is, you know, an inveterate planner. Like, you have touched every scene by the time cameras are rolling. It's three months of rehearsal. And, you know, Tommy, in the way he chopped up Sam Watson's Fosse biography and said, "Actually, no, Gwen needs to be an equal partner in this," and played with the timeline of their love story was really, like, really educational. He did that with Steven Levinson, his showrunner. And then John Chu, like, it was magic watching him work because he's a planner,

• 31:14Speaker 01

  and you've got Christopher Scott, who's an incredible choreographer, and the team, and the corps of choreographers they have. But then he's also someone who looks up and goes, "What magic is happening on the day?"

• 31:22Josh Horowitz?

  Being open.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  And so you get the shot of, you know, the superintendent with the mop in In the Heights, which is my favorite shot in the entire thing, and is not in the script.

• 31:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  It's just magic that was happening on that day. You get champagne being sung live in an apartment because on the day, he went, "Holy shit, it's quiet." It's never quiet in Washington Heights. Like, you can never actually record live sound in that neighborhood in the summer. But it was quiet, so he was like, "Can we do this live?" Because it was a wonder. "Let's do it live."

• 31:51Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  And so, you know, it's nine takes of champagne, and take nine is what you see in the movie.

• 31:55Josh Horowitz?

  Was there any kind of period of mourning after that film, which was extraordinary? John did an amazing job with that film. It was kind of a victim of pandemic times, I think.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And I think that, for me, that was the ultimate lesson in... The weekend release is not even the first draft of the legacy of the movie.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And, you know, you want everything to be a big hit, but it has continued to grow in the consciousness in the years since. I was just watching a Martin Short's documentary, which is so gorgeous. And there's that great anecdote of John Mulaney being like, "Listen, we all grew up watching Three Amigos on a loop." And Martin Short goes, "Well, we lost a golden child." I was like, "No, no, no, buddy." Talking about the golden child like like the legacy of Three Migos is so enormous. And and that's been, you know, the case on a lot of movies I've worked on, you know. Moana was like a hit, but it wasn't frozen.

• 32:51Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Like, that was basically the conversation coming out of that opening weekend. Well, it's not frozen.

• 32:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Uh, but it has gone on to just like be so meaningful to so many people's lives. And I, and I've watched that trajectory within the heights as well.

• 33:03Josh Horowitz?

  Well, and the trajectory of these like ups and ups and huge ups and then downs, whatever in anyone's career. But yours in particular is a very unusual, like if you were to chart it out. It's like in the heights alone would be the highlight of anybody's career.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  I thought I was so famous in 2009. But it, but like it never left the arts and leisure.

• 33:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right. You were in a certain world, you were huge.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:26Josh Horowitz?

  And then you have this outside of this thing that is just like once in a mo- like in a century thing that happens with Hamilton.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:33Josh Horowitz?

  And I'm sure like you've probably had a couple of instances of like, is this it moments of like, well, what's left to do in a way? I'm, I'm 28, I'm 35, like, what's the rest of my life even look like?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it coincides with when I call my shrink and go, I'm ready to come back to work.

• 33:51Josh Horowitz?

  We have more work to do.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's funny, like I, I have a, my, I've been seeing my shrink since I was 19, but like at moments in my life. Like I don't, I'm not someone who goes every week. Um, and the first time was when I broke up with my high school, college girlfriend and was like, who am I? And here's all the stuff that's been building up in my brain. And you put it out on the table and you go, oh, everyone goes through that. Got it. The second time I called him was in between Off Broadway and Broadway in the Heights. My show I'd spent my twenties writing was on a stage and I feel the same. It didn't fix it. It didn't fix the hole in me. What's going on?

• 34:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Well, that's the key.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  And then, and then I went back again, like after Hamilton came out on Disney plus in 2020 and we were all sort of locked down. And I had nothing to do, but like drink from the fire hose of everyone's opinion on everything I'd ever done in my life. Which is good, bad, like runs the gamut.

• 34:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Uh, and I was like, this is really bad. And like, I'm just home with nothing to do, but reading terrible things about myself. Uh, and so like, you know, and then, and like, I think where I've gotten to is sort of like, you know, I'm so grateful and lucky to make stuff.

• 34:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  And, uh, and so like, there are people who make stuff and there are people who talk about the people who make stuff. And I'd rather be the person who makes stuff. As long as I get to make stuff, I'm happy.

• 35:07Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy Say Confused coming up.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 35:44Speaker 06

  From the parents behind Law & Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries. Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11-year-old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:32Josh Horowitz?

  The place that Hamilton holds in your life, which I mean, again, it's always going to be with you every single day of the rest of your life.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the first line of the obit.

• 36:40Josh Horowitz?

  And it's smart to reconcile that now. But it's also fascinating to look back at the time when it was at its apex, right? That 2016 moment, you're coming offstage, Obama's in the White House. It's a different, it's a different time. 2026, we sit here, I mean, ICE, Trump, we don't need to get super political, but it is, needless to say, a much different time.

• 37:04Josh Horowitz?

  Can you kind of reconcile with sort of like what this show means to you now, given where we're at versus where we were 10 years ago?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think for me, it's interesting to me that it gets tagged as like the Obama era musical. I think mainly because I debuted that first song in the White House.

• 37:23Josh Horowitz?

  So it's going to be connected there.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Always going to be connected in the same way that Camelot and JFK are connected. And I'm cool with that, but it's been around, I mean, it was only around the Obama era for one year.

• 37:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  It's been around for 10-plus years and people are still finding something in it. And I think that's because, I don't think I ever painted as rosy at pictures people think I painted. For me, the big political takeaway from Hamilton is like, they were flawed people, they made a flawed country, and we still live in that flawed country, and we're constantly taking steps forward and back. It feels like a really dark time right now. My big thing with Hamilton, on this side of nearly 11 years of it living in the world, is the joy I have in how many artists of color get their first credit on this show. I look at the Tony race this past year, and I get to see Josh Henry, who started as Chris

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Jackson's understudy in the Heights, as like, just giving this towering performance. And opposite him is Nicholas Christopher, who was our first Benny in our first national tour of Heights, and has been George Washington and Burr for us for Hamilton for years. I look over and I see Hannah Cruze, who started as Eliza on the national tour of Hamilton. And it goes back to Maya Angelou weirdly. In her second or third biography, she writes about being the principal dancer in the first European tour of Porgy and Bess. It was her first time leaving the country and seeing race relations outside the insanity that is the United States of America and moving freely through the world and being part of a company.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  And every time I visit with a Hamilton cast, I think, who are the Maya Angelos in this crew for whom I am a footnote? Hamilton is a footnote, it's a step It's a foot in the door to their incredible career and journey, wherever that takes them. And I could say that about our incredible original cast. I think of Efrem Sykes and Ariana DeBose. And obviously Leslie and Renee, but I also think of, you know, Carl Clemens Hopkins on Hacks, who was in our tour of Hamilton. I mean, there's so many people for whom it's just a foot in the door. And I'm really grateful to have provided that.

• 39:37Josh Horowitz?

  Expectations, as you could, as you would imagine, are going to go high for your next production, which is going to be The Warriors next spring. I don't know if that was, the Walter Hill version was a big influence or a book?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, like older brother, like friend's older brother with the VHS cassette when I was four.

• 39:53Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. So Gender Swap, the music's already out there to a degree. I would have not write that music. Where are you at in terms of like putting, getting this on its feet and figuring this out?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, Issa and I have been, I mean, Issa and I have basically never stopped working on it. The first goal was, we just didn't want to solve for X and Y at the same time, right? Like, does this work as a musical is a host of questions? Does, do, can we write songs that tell this story in a really compelling way? Was the first, was solving for X. And we released the album and we got these all-stars who would never do eight shows a week, you know, Miss Lauryn Hill, Busta Rhymes, Nas, Marc Anthony, to play these voices that have been careening around in our heads. And then since then, we've just been slowly assembling the team we think that can solve for Y, which is, how do you sing and fight at the same time?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  How do you make a journey from the Bronx to Coney Island exciting on a stage and surprising? And so we've got an incredible team with Jenny Coons and Andy Blankenbuehler. And they're the creative team they've assembled and we're really excited to share it.

• 40:58Josh Horowitz?

  So you reference, you recently wrapped production on your second film, Tic Tac Boom was amazing, by the way.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 41:03Josh Horowitz?

  His performance remarkable. But you've collected, I guess, eight actors for Octet, which doesn't have a huge profile outside of like a smaller theater community, I think.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. It's, it was just beloved. It's like a cult that loves Octet. And I'm in that cult and I've seen every production.

• 41:20Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. And you've collected an amazing group that includes the likes Rachel Zegler, Jonathan Groff, many, they're all exceptional actors. So this is fresh in your mind. And it's interesting, you were talking a little bit about wanting to be the person that makes the thing than, rather than the person that talks about the thing. And that sounds like it's very much on your mind with this film.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 41:40Josh Horowitz?

  Internet addiction story, this, can you talk to me a little bit about the themes that are resonating here for you?

• 41:45Speaker 01

  It's a brilliant musical by Dave Malloy, who, you know, wrote Natasha Pierre in the great comet of eighteen twelve, which is where I first saw Pippa Sue. Actually, not, I was gonna say on a stage, but it was in a tent, eating pierogies, because it was like this amazing funky off-Broadway show that began at Ars Nova. And, and so he was written this brilliant musical about a recovery group for internet addicts. And I kind of describe it as like chorus line meets The Matrix. Like, it's these eight people, they all have different reasons for being there. One is addicted to games. One is addicted to porn. One is addicted to, you know, there's, there's a woman who, who had like a racist meltdown that went viral.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  And is addicted to reading negative things about herself. Her song is called Refresh. And, and so it was, I, I really just first was like respectful of like that journey of the show and its trajectory in the world. And then once they got to the phase where they were licensing the show, I went, can I please make this as a movie? Because more people

• 42:52Speaker 01

  should know about this incredible score. It's only gotten more prescient with the advent of AI. And the conversations we're having now around technology was already talking about AI and all these things back in twenty eighteen, when Dave was writing it. And so, and I think the other thing I learned on Tic Tic Boom was, I, I really love making movies where I'm working with actors in a space and we're figuring it out together.

• 43:18Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's what you've referenced this. This is interesting because I would imagine you're not wanting for opportunities. You could work on a bigger scale, I'd imagine.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  I've been offered some big ones.

• 43:25Josh Horowitz?

  I would imagine.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  And I, I just think, I don't want to be in effects meetings all day.

• 43:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Like, because I've seen it. I've seen the animation meetings. I've seen Tommy working out the effects for this film.

• 43:37Josh Horowitz?

  You don't need Rob Marshall knows what like how to make that kind of.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Rob Marshall, they're the best in the world at it and like, let me make the funky little thing that no one else can get made. You know, we independently financed Octet. Like, we just raised the money because we really believed in it and and believed it should exist as a film and and that there were things film could do that were unique to this property and then I think will hopefully advance the theatrical life of the show.

• 44:01Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a movie musical that's not held in high esteem that you go to bat for with friends and family that you say like, people missed this one, people didn't give this one its due?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  There's a ton. Well, it's funny, like, there's also, I have two different lists I'm trying, competing, aching to share with you. There's like, the list of the like, musicals that are so good, but the adaptation doesn't capture what made them great. And I think I'm allowed to talk about them. I think the people who made them no longer are with us. Like, Man of La Mancha is like a great musical and has a great lead performance by Peter O'Toole and Sophie Loren, but like that movie like doesn't hang, but it was all I had.

• 44:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  So I adore that movie.

• 44:39Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  You know, I think that, I think Chorus Line is doof, like Chorus Line is one of the best musicals ever written.

• 44:47Josh Horowitz?

  The bones are there.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  The bones are there, the movie just like, it was like, it doesn't work for me.

• 44:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I always bring up guys and dolls. Or do you defend Brando's singing is not the best?

• 44:57Speaker 01

  They call you a lady, love. There was room for doubt. You know what? That is one I'd go to bat for.

• 45:02Josh Horowitz?

  Me too.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  I think it's legit great. It's, it also is like, the, like, it's, it's this kind of filmmaking that doesn't really exist anymore and like, they just trust like a long tracking shot to introduce Times Square in that movie and he's thrilling in that. Like, yeah, they had to sew his syllables together to make it work, but like, like, I'm also not like the absolutist of like, like, bring back lip syncing. If someone else can sing it better than like the actress who's gonna act the hell out of it, like, Never Enough and The Greatest Showman.

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  God bless Rebecca Ferguson for being like, get an opera singer in here and playing an opera singer.

• 45:41Josh Horowitz?

  I'm gonna bring your film down.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  And like, never. And she looks incredible delivering that song like whatever makes the movie work wins. It's we're not doing a live show.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  Do you understand we reference like Jellicle Ball and like I feel like it's okay. No one's really going to bat for sadly the cats adaptation years ago at this point. But like when you see something like that, you're like, oh, I get why from a filmmaking standpoint. This just didn't like even with the best of intentions.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, God bless. You know, it's what's brilliant about Jellicle Ball, though, is without changing word of text and changing the people who are performing it, you solve the show.

• 46:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  You're like, oh, it's a naming ritual. And in this queer drag culture where everyone creates their own names and creates their own houses and creates their own clans, suddenly the world of cats makes sense like it makes sense in a new third way.

• 46:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  That is thrilling. The original production was so genius because as soon as you walked in, you saw a giant Campbell's soup can and a giant tire. You're like, oh, we're in cat's eye view. And we are witnessing a secret ritual like let me explain to you for those who wonder why this thing ran for 19 years. We felt like we were witnessing a secret ritual. We were seeing the sexiest dancers on earth acting like cats. And and it felt like we were witnessing this thing we weren't supposed to be witnessing. It really was like this voyeuristic, incredible thing that also required like no prior knowledge.

• 47:08Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Like we're just here. We're watching the cats go. And then Jellicle Ball comes along and it adds this other layer that like like Rum Tum Tugger as a song is like, all right, this is about a cat who's named Rum Tum Tugger. Rum Tum Tugger in a walk off.

• 47:22Josh Horowitz?

  Suddenly.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Um, suddenly you're like, oh, all right, Rum Tum Tugger, get your best life. So it's it really is a genius adaptation, but like that other one ran 19 years for a reason. Like they're they it's it's amazing to like get to see both versions.

• 47:37Josh Horowitz?

  Where are you at on kind of the so called jukebox musical, like the Mamma Mia's of the world, et cetera? Can they can they work?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  I think they rise and fall on the wit of their adapters.

• 47:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  You know, I've seen a lot that are not for me. But I I'm a huge fan of Anne Juliet because I thought. David did an incredible job of surprising us with when those needle drops are. And as someone who grew up with all those Max Martin tunes, like when the guy turns to her and goes, "I love you," and she goes, "I think I did it again." You're like, "Yeah." I remember thinking, "Oh, this is how my parents felt about Mamma Mia." Because I didn't grow up with ABBA, so I was just really confused by that show. When I saw it, I was like, "What's going on? What's this mega mix? I don't know these songs." But when I saw In Juliet, I was like, "Now I get it."

• 48:22Josh Horowitz?

  Is there... I want to come back as we kind of like careen towards the end that like, when I think of the decade that's come since Hamilton, you kind of referenced kind of trying to figure out what your ethos was. Also, part of it, when I look at some like the credits, it's like, Lynn is living his best life. He's like living like Fantasy Camp. Like, he gets to do like a Star Wars little bit. He gets to do DuckTales. He does a WrestleMania thing. Like, is there an aspect of that where it's like, "Yeah, like these amazing opportunities."

• 48:48Speaker 01

  I'm a little in my Shaquille O'Neal era. Like, I'm doing side quests.

• 48:53Josh Horowitz?

  Why not?

• 48:54Speaker 01

  I think the only, I think, again, I think the work I try to make is like the work that I would be thinking about forever if I didn't make it. Like, that's the impulse for working on Warriors, for making Octet as a movie. And then there are the things that come along where you'd kick yourself forever if you didn't get to be ringside with Dom Mysterio. Or, you know, like get to be on set with JJ while he's making one of those massive things.

• 49:19Josh Horowitz?

  We end every Happy Second Fused episode the same way, with our profoundly random questions.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Ready?

• 49:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Dogs or cats?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Dogs.

• 49:27Josh Horowitz?

  My condolences. I know your dog was very close to you.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Thank you. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how to write. You know, that was the thing. I'm someone who's like not superstitious about writing, but our dog crept into our life and she was the first listener on everything and just would sit there while I was singing to myself. And so I'm still struggling with how to write without her.

• 49:45Josh Horowitz?

  I can imagine. What do you collect?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  I collect, what do I collect? I mean, I'm right now, you're talking to me the day after my producer, John Skidmore on Octet, sent me the He-Man Castle Grayskull popcorn. I mean, better late than never, right? But like, I, you know, I got the cup, I got the, I'm a, still got all the He-Mans, still got all the G.I. Joes. At my parents' house.

• 50:10Josh Horowitz?

  Did you? I just had Danny McBride on the podcast, you know, he's written, he's gonna do a G.I. Joe movie, Danny McBride.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  This is very exciting. Is he playing Duke? Like, who does he play in that? Is he Sergeant Slaughter?

• 50:21Josh Horowitz?

  Well, in the fantasy camp for Lynn, who does Lynn play in G.I. Joe?

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Snake Eyes, I don't have to say a word? You don't even know if it's me in there? Snake Eyes or Storm Shadow?

• 50:31Josh Horowitz?

  Obviously. Favorite video game of all time?

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Um, ooh, that's a good one. Um, it's probably, probably the most hours logged is NBA Jam.

• 50:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Um, that was like, every day of college, we had it at the campus center, Four Quarters was Four Quarters. And Ewing would just go crazy. Um, I think like, the programmers had a bias towards Ewing. So like, I'm thrilled the Knicks won in real life, but the Knicks have been winning in NBA Jam for very long.

• 50:57Josh Horowitz?

  No, as a-

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Ewing and Starks.

• 50:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ewing, Starks, Oakley, that era, that was me. So I'm, I feel a little lighter on my feet these days, do you?

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's, it's, yeah. I think it was, uh, Michael Che was like, it's like reverse 9/11. Like, everyone in the city is like, hi, how are you? Knicks in five.

• 51:14Josh Horowitz?

  Knicks in five. There'll be a lot of tattoos that say that now, I think. What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  The wallpaper on my phone is my friend's kid, Natalie, flipping the bird. Uh, she's seven, she's just showing off the gems on her finger.

• 51:31Josh Horowitz?

  Obviously.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  But, so she's just kinda casually doing this.

• 51:33Josh Horowitz?

  The Dakota Johnson Memorial question, she asked me this, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I'll take the mouthful of bees.

• 51:42Josh Horowitz?

  Interesting. Minority opinion.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, my first bee sting was like, deep in my ear, so I just feel like I could handle it.

• 51:48Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  How long do I have to?

• 51:50Josh Horowitz?

  We haven't really gone to figure this out yet.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, like, I would do the bee in my butt for 30 seconds.

• 51:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  But like, if it's 30 seconds each, I'll take the mouthful.

• 51:58Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. We'll arrange that afterwards.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  The removal feels easier.

• 52:02Josh Horowitz?

  Last actor you were mistaken for? Ever happen?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  Uh, when I was young, I got Freddie Prince Jr., and he was so dreamy, and I'm so grateful. And I think the last one I got, when my son was little, he thought I was Ray Romano.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Time has not been kind.

• 52:21Josh Horowitz?

  Worst note a director has ever given you as an actor?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Um, when I, uh, my first TV gig was as a bellhop in The Sopranos. And, um, the director was great and, um, Gandolfini was great. Um, one of the other actors, uh, came up to me while I was getting makeup and he was like, "Hey kid, when you do the line, do it with like a real like fucked up Latin accent. So we have something to react to." And he walked, and I, my heart dropped. And he walked away and the makeup guy goes, "Ignore him, he tries to note all the actors."

• 52:57Josh Horowitz?

  And by the way, what's fucked up Latin accent?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  I don't know, I didn't do it.

• 53:01Josh Horowitz?

  And finally, in the spirit of happy said confused, an actor who makes you happy would be?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Uh, Jack Black.

• 53:08Josh Horowitz?

  Great.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Joy, every time.

• 53:09Josh Horowitz?

  Movie that makes you sad?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Um, I'm gonna go with like a little scene one called The Saint of Fort Washington. Um, starring Matt Dillon and Danny Glover and it's about homelessness in New York. And it's, it's one of those masterpieces you can only watch once because it's so devastating. It's like, I have a list, it's like Requiem for a Dream.

• 53:28Josh Horowitz?

  That's totally.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Saint of Fort Washington. Um, there's just those movies that are like, you're like, this is a perfect movie. I can never watch it again because I cannot expose myself. Dancer in the Dark.

• 53:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Um, great movie, can't watch it again.

• 53:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yep. And finally, a food that makes you confused, you don't get it?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Um, I'm a collector of, I have a group chat with two people, Chuck Wendig, the writer Chuck Wendig, and my friend Miranda Bergen, and the name of the group chat is I'd Eat That. And whenever a weird food comes out, uh, we send it to each other and it's like, would you eat it or would you not eat it?

• 54:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Um, they sent me a Dorito flavored liquor.

• 54:09Josh Horowitz?

  Oh no.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Um, and I pass it on to my wife saying my birthday is January 16th. I have it, I have two bottles of it. Um, it's gross. But it smells just like Doritos. Um, but the last one of those I had, because we sometimes buy them, was I had a pizza flavored soda.

• 54:26Josh Horowitz?

  Huh.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  It was bad, it was just like watery to me, it was also terrible.

• 54:30Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  It really confused me.

• 54:32Josh Horowitz?

  We've gone too far in science. We'll end there and go full circle. Congratulations on Moana back in a different, bigger, if it's possible, way. You know, it's gonna be great. A new audience, bring back the old audience. It is a spectacle that demands to be seen on the big screen, so congratulations all around.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 54:50Josh Horowitz?

  And I'm especially happy that it got you on the podcast, finally, a long time coming.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, hopefully first of many. I'm really a big fan of the show.

• 54:56Josh Horowitz?

  Please, I appreciate it. Thanks, man.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 55:09Speaker 07

  I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

• 55:18Speaker 07

  What if the imaginary world you created as a child became real and wanted you back? That's the mystery at the heart of sagas of Sundry: Darkling Gate. A cinematic Call of Cthulhu actual play series where Jane Austen's social drama collides with cosmic horror. The year is 1816, the year without a summer. Three siblings and their companion are drawn to a gloomy country estate beside an ancient forest in the English countryside. In its darkened halls, memories of the fanciful Wonderland created by their dead brother begin manifesting in increasingly terrifying ways. Expect ballroom courtships, dangerous family secrets, strange relics, occult rituals, and horrors no human mind was ever meant to comprehend.

• 56:03Speaker 07

  If you like Gothic mysteries, Regency romance, immersive role-playing, horror that follows you long after the story ends, step through the Darkling Gate. Watch on Geek and Sundry's YouTube channel, or listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.