BONUS! Hermes Historia: We Yearn for the Grave (Re-air)

Hey, did you know that Michaela and Liv are running a bonus history series over on the show's Patreon?! Last year we aired a few Hermes Historia episodes before putting the rest behind the Patreon paywall. This was the inaugural Spooooky Hermes Historia episode... Michaela shares a brief history of ancient Greek funerary practices. Because Spooky Season. Find ad-free episodes, Hermes Historia episodes, and so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Sources: John Ferguson's Among the Gods: An Archaeological Exploration of Ancient Greek Religion; Maria Serena Mirto's Death in the Greek World: From Homer to the Classical Age; Herodotus' The Histories, translated by Robin Waterfield. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com group trip.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:31Liv Albert?

  So, Mikael and I are trying to record these next two episodes of Hermes Historia, but it's been a little while. We both have had a ton of stuff going on and I am trying to move across the country. And then there's extenuating circumstances in my life that I'm not prepared to yet announce on mic. But basically I'm losing my whole damn mind. And so this is the introduction. This is Hermes Historia while we find our footing. It's still free anyway, until we figure out also the subscription that's coming. So keep enjoying these Hermes Historia episodes. And yeah, Michaela, why don't you, why don't you take it away? What are we talking about today?

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Hi. So because it's, you know, spooky season, I had to pick spooky topics.

• 2:21Liv Albert?

  I would have been offended if you didn't.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:25Liv Albert?

  You might have been fired. That might have been

• 2:27Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:27Liv Albert?

  The thing that did it.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Originally, I was gonna do something else for this first one, but um, and then I decided I was gonna do that next month instead. So here we are.

• 2:36Liv Albert?

  I support this.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. I like the spookiness too, as you know.

• 2:42Liv Albert?

  No.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  A little bit, just a touch. So for this first one, we're gonna talk about Greek funerary practices.

• 2:49Liv Albert?

  Oh, hell, yes.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Yes. So these practices, they have, yeah.

• 2:55Liv Albert?

  See, okay, this is the problem is I immediately want to like jump in with like a joke question. And so I'm going to, I want you to tell the listeners just how, how important the coins on the eyelids were. Cause it, all we, every movie from the ancient Greek world, everything would lead us to believe that the only way to pass into the underworld is to have coins placed over your eyelids. So tell us all about that incredibly accurate portrayal of the ancient Greek funerary practices, Michaela.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  You know, of all my research into Greek funerary practices, and all of my schooling, I have never actually once encountered

• 3:41Liv Albert?

  No.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Coins with corpses.

• 3:43Liv Albert?

  Great. It's because it's on the eyes in the movies. Thank you very much.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Or in the mouth, or, but no.

• 3:49Liv Albert?

  Right, yeah. Yeah, in the mouth. But either way, it's, you know, that coin to pay the ferryman.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Maybe one person did it and someone got, I don't know.

• 3:58Liv Albert?

  They wrote it into like three myths and so the Western culture then decided that that was the only way they did anything.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  All right, we, you know, we dug them up, didn't find any coins and they were like, these are all mistakes then, I guess. No, no, I've never encountered.

• 4:13Liv Albert?

  It's not a big part. Yeah. Not at all. So tell us about the real one.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  So.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  It's changed a lot throughout all of uh sort of like

• 4:23Liv Albert?

  Thousand years, yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's um it bounces around in a way that I find really interesting where there doesn't seem to be like an actual consistency to what the proper practices are. There wasn't consistency on if inhumation, which is actual burial of the body in the ground, or cremation was preferred. They really just seem to change based on preference throughout time.

• 4:49Liv Albert?

  I feel like it'd be a lot about like how easy, how practical it is too, right? Like.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Cremation's expensive.

• 4:56Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, and and also like if if your land isn't easy to be buried in too, like, you know, there's there's so many different things going on. So, yeah, it makes sense if they're just kind of like, what can we do at any given time?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it just, I mean, like, even if we look at like Mycenae, for example, we have the grave circles where people were buried bodies completely in the ground. And then we get other areas where it's like, oh, they're being cremated. It's and within a relatively short timeframe, so it's it's it's just not consistent in a way that I think is comfortable to us. But I kind of like that. I don't know why.

• 5:34Liv Albert?

  I mean, I I like it because it just seems practical and to me, like, I mean, every everything I love about ancient Greece is that it like it it it predates like all the Christian stuff that we've come, we've been led to believe is the way to do things. And I like that. It's just like, no, so long as like the body was honored in some way. Like, we've done our duty, the person is gone, you know, that you don't, it there's not so much pressure placed upon the survivors.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, throw grandpa in the hole. It's fine.

• 6:01Liv Albert?

  I mean, we said goodbye and then we we we honor and we appreciate grandpa and then we throw him in the hole.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. It's fine. So. Through all these periods, various grave goods are put in the graves too. This is relatively common. We see marking of the graves either done with like marble or stone stelae. Sometimes they're marked with just pots, just a real big, nice looking pot. Put it there. That's where someone is buried.

• 6:30Liv Albert?

  Well, and it's a show of gratitude regardless, right?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's just, just the way they did it. Mourning, always accompanied death. Mourning was a big deal, actually.

• 6:39Liv Albert?

  Yeah, that makes it into the myths.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we have these three components for funerary practices. We have the mourning processes, the actual burial, and then the way the graves are marked. So immediately after death, someone perishes for one reason or another. The most ideal case at home, hopefully, not, what am I writing? And not being poked by the dangerous end of a spear on the battlefield.

• 7:08Liv Albert?

  I mean, yeah, that's a preference.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, at least then you can do the burial stuff right.

• 7:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  If you're at home versus on the battlefield.

• 7:17Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Nice. So after the death, the prothesis, or literally just the laying out, begins. It would be done on a beer of some sort. It's, a beer is just like a bed. And apparently the body would be positioned so that the feet faced towards the door. Like, this is the way we go. Go this way. Don't stay in the home. Go out this way. Because dead bodies, no matter how much we love them, the person who was in habit of them, loved the person who was once in them, were very polluting. So you didn't want these things to stick around in your home. And the first thing that would be done after the laying out is that the people who attended

• 8:02Speaker 02

  to the body would then close the eyes and mouth. Uh, the attendants were typically women in the most ideal of cases. It didn't have to be, you know, um, if you don't have any women in your family, somebody still has to do it. If you're on the battlefield, someone still has to do it.

• 8:18Liv Albert?

  It sounds like it would be just like the carers.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and women are often, often are that role in antiquity. They are, they are, they are the ones who take care of the domestic sphere, which includes death.

• 8:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  That's part of it. It happens in the family.

• 8:32Liv Albert?

  Well, it makes me think of in the Iliad too, because, I mean, the people I'm thinking of just like, you know, the, the important deaths and the people I most associate with, like any kind of practices or, or caring is like Nestor and then the like actual healers like Macian. And I forget the other one, like, you know, you have these roles where there aren't women, but they're like, there are the carers that are sort of assigned.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And even in the Iliad at the end, when, um, with Hector's funeral.

• 9:01Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  We have Helen and Drama Key and Hecuba, who are the ones who are leading it and taking charge and how it, it processes. And I, it's just, women take, are responsible for the family in antiquity. That's, that's their primary role. My good son, get off the desk.

• 9:20Liv Albert?

  That was a cat. Let's just make that clear.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  My, yes.

• 9:26Liv Albert?

  There's no video, Michaela. My good son, get off my desk.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  He's just in front of my screen. I can't see anything. Ah, so there is some indication from Panakis, which I think we talked about last month. They're basically just terracotta or flat, um, pieces of art that have images on them. Um, so Panakis from the seventh and sixth centuries, um, that there could have been a linen cloth that would be used, that would be strapped underneath the chin and then behind the head in order to keep the jaw shut. We don't have any archaeological evidence for this because linen, of course,

• 10:04Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  doesn't survive. Um, we do though, have gold bands from Mycenae that could have served the same purpose.

• 10:12Liv Albert?

  Oh.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  So the body would be washed and cleaned, preferably with water from a running source, as that was seen as better. And then it would be anointed with oil and clothed in an edema or a red or white robe.

• 10:26Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Uh aromatic plants would be laid out on the beer with the body. And then the body would eventually be covered with a sheet called an epiblema. Um, like I said, like dead bodies are very polluting to the environment. So any sort of cleansing or purifying acts were important. Um.

• 10:45Liv Albert?

  Well, and the, yeah, the, the herbs and stuff is all about the smell, right? Like, and just to the listeners, like that's where the myth of Hades and Menthie is coming in. Uh, is, is purely that, like, there was this association with mint because it's so aromatic and it would just be like, it would be the best or one of the best things to cover up the smell of a dead body. Uh, and then so they just, this sort of like after effect, because it's not really surviving in any kind of, you know, real mythos. It's just sort of in like, Paulus Anius is like, someone told me this thing once. Um, and so it's just an interesting connection to, to make. And also people love to hear about Hades and

• 11:25Speaker 02

  We love Hades.

• 11:25Liv Albert?

  Menthie. So, Lor Olympus feather.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Uh, and so that same water that would be used, um, well, the same water from the same source. They would also be available in the household and people who would come visit during, after the death could dip plants into the water and then like sprinkle it about them as a way to purify themselves when they were leaving the space. Because that space is still, no matter what you do to try to keep it cleansed in the moment, when the body is still there, it's still considered polluted. So when you leave, you gotta cleanse yourself and, you know, sprinkle yourself with a little bit of twig, water from a twig. And you're fine. Off you go. Um, and then the final thing that would be done to the body is that it would be decorated with any sort of jewelry, plants, clothing, anything to make it nice. Something we do too.

• 12:15Liv Albert?

  So question about that, because it stood out to me, I mean, the, the. In the, the Mycenaeans are sort of the one off, but like, they weren't like providing them with loads of riches, right? Like, it wasn't like the Egyptians, like, there was much more of like a practicality, like, they would be given a couple of things to show gratitude, but they, people wouldn't be like tossing their entire wealth into the tombs, right? I mean, again, the Mycenaeans, I think, did to an extent for a time period at least, but like beyond that.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  I think it would depend on your social class and what you have to give.

• 12:47Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  You know?

• 12:48Liv Albert?

  But then, so it's still this kind of same thing, you'd be giving kind of what you can, rather than like everything you have.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Exactly, um, and it, it would be more about, you know, giving the stuff that was important to the person.

• 13:03Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Um, and sort of like, cause there's a sense that that stays with them into the world. We, um, one thing I, I remember up from school is, um, we see a lot of mirrors giving, being given to women. Um, and in the Etruscan world, I think in the Roman world as well, and, and in the Greek world. Um, and even in, um, going all the way back to like Socratic culture in the Bronze Age is we see these essentially bronze mirrors. Given in burial contexts and we deduce that usually it's women. We can't actually tell, I've been watching a lot of bones lately and the amount of times this woman's like, this is a thirty-five-year-old man. I'm like, you can't tell that.

• 13:45Liv Albert?

  Well, and it's like, the, the mirrors thing being women is again, is more that longstanding, it's like the, yeah, it's like, oh, ladies would look at the mirror more than men, so of course, these are women. It's like, no, you could say like, you know, well, it's a person with the mirror, but it just, yeah, it reminds me of like, when, when they'll find two guy, two corpses, like embracing and they're like, either, you know, they're roommates, or there has to be male and female. There's no alternative.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, or if they find a body that has like weapons with them and they automatically assume it has to be a war, has to be a man. And then like, they actually spend time with the bones and they're like, actually, this is probably female. It's like, yeah, women can have knives too.

• 14:24Liv Albert?

  Huh.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  And in fact, maybe we should let women have knives a little bit more.

• 14:28Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I second that.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  It's not a threat, it's a promise.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  So after the initial preparations of the body immediately after death, the next big thing is mourning and lamentation. Um, and this was a big deal.

• 14:45Liv Albert?

  Big, big. This is like one of the only things I know about funeral practices.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yes. So the way the people who survive react is so much more important than some of the rituals that need to be done, which is, um, hilarious.

• 15:01Liv Albert?

  So interesting, yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  And we also, fun, fun fact, have so many images, especially from like the geometric period of, from pottery of people mourning.

• 15:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  And it's really cool to see.

• 15:14Liv Albert?

  And, and so many scenes in tragedy, like we have so many. And the, the, you know, I mean, I mean, the Iliad for, for sure, the Homeric texts broadly. But like, just this idea of like the wailing and the tearing at your hair and like all of that is so iconically. Yeah, it's just.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  That is how you mourn.

• 15:36Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  You don't mourn through just crying and having an emotional break. You mourn by tearing your hair out and beating your head and scratching your nails down your face. Like it is a very physical thing.

• 15:47Liv Albert?

  Yeah, violent and like even.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  I kinda like it cause it feels more accurate to what mourning feels like and what grief feels like. Like it is such like a, it is such a vivid depiction of what you're going through when you have loss. And I'm like, I love that they just allowed this to happen. I mean, technically it was supposed to be women who were doing this. Really the mostly.

• 16:11Liv Albert?

  But Achilles shows us that it wasn't always.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Cause Achilles was the bottom. Like that's.

• 16:19Liv Albert?

  You're not wrong.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  I know.

• 16:21Liv Albert?

  But Iscullus would say you are.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Ah, yeah, Iscullus can go away.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Uh, so men would also be depicted on the vases. So we get the, the images of women on the vases, beating at their heads and ripping their hair, but we also get images of men. Um, often they would be in procession with ritual gestures. So, um, and then interestingly, there was also this idea of they would come to the bodies and they would call the deceased by their name. And it was like, it was, it was a very intimate, it was seen as a very intimate way, thing to do. It's like a way to emotionally connect, connect with the deceased for the last time. Um, so I find that interesting where they're also asking men to have this emotional connection with the body. And it's like, go up to them, you speak into their ear, you say whatever you have to say, you call them by their name. I don't know. It's kind of sweet.

• 17:13Liv Albert?

  It's interesting. Yeah. It's very personal in a, in a nice way.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  So during mourning, not only would there be the very obvious displays of mourning, there'd also be singing, whaling, flute playing. Um, grief was encouraged to be expressed. And the extent that mourning and grief was expected to be displayed could be a whole, honestly, like a whole episode by itself. Like I want, I want, I want, if there's a scholar out there who works on mourning and grief in antiquity, send us a message because it is wild. The extent to mourning is like important and dramatic to which is, you know, it's the Greeks. They, they, they're, they're, they were a dramatic bunch and I appreciate them for that.

• 18:01Liv Albert?

  The inventors of theater were a dramatic people?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  You know, I know it's a wild thing to say, but this is, this is the conclusions I've come to.

• 18:13Liv Albert?

  They're not at all dramatic now. No, not at all.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  No. Uh, I don't know. I have, I have a good.

• 18:18Liv Albert?

  I'm being sarcastic.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Okay. I missed that. I was just like, that's a wild thing to say.

• 18:25Liv Albert?

  Greek people are iconic, like they're they're

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Best.

• 18:28Liv Albert?

  It's just the most Greek. I fucking love it.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  It makes me very happy. So after the morning, well, during the morning, but after the initial period of the body being in the home, you have the Ekphora or the funeral procession. Greek religion, they love a procession. They love a parade. It's

• 18:48Liv Albert?

  That's on pottery everywhere.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Uh, it's like if they can have any excuse for a procession, they will do it. And I'm, that's fair. That's like, so they do it with the dead body. Uh, so after the period time of Solon in Athens, this would take place on the third day after death. Um, probably to ensure that the body's actually dead. So you don't bury someone alive.

• 19:15Liv Albert?

  They learn pretty quickly.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, in earlier time periods, it was quite the affair, quite the affair. So it could be large crowds of people accompanying the deceased to the grave, wailing and grieving the whole way. Um, people would know that someone had died. It was like, just you have screaming women in the street. It's like, okay, someone's died. Um, and there's also like an indication that like before people died, they would hire women to grieve for them at their funeral procession.

• 19:49Liv Albert?

  I mean, I could see that. I could see that.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  You just throw some money around and pay twenty women to when you die to just scream in the streets.

• 19:57Liv Albert?

  Because, because like, I mean, especially for like a, uh, you know, the like highborn Athenian man who's like really concerned with that. Like what if no one did? Like you gotta prepare.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Yep. It makes them look important.

• 20:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  A little more important than they perhaps were.

• 20:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And humans have always wanted to look more important than they are.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 20:21Liv Albert?

  For eternity.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  That's fair. Let them live. So after so long, though, the he kind of he restricted this this level of extravagance. Um, I think he really was just trying to have it so that the funeral procession was really just the family. Um, and to cut back on conspicuous consumption. This we see this pop up all the time in antiquity. Sort of ways to cut back on rich people showing how rich they are and it never works, but.

• 20:49Liv Albert?

  That's what an idea.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  We should encourage them to spend more money is what I think we should do.

• 20:54Liv Albert?

  We should encourage them to give more money and become less rich.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yep, spend the money.

• 20:59Liv Albert?

  Yeah. But on people.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Give them tax breaks, you know, they can pay, they can do what, you know, the Greeks did this and the Romans did this too. Get a really rich person to pay for us all to have a holiday.

• 21:12Liv Albert?

  I think about this all the time because I'm making decent money and I'm not trying to dodge taxes, even though I I I our taxes pay for the bombing of children. Um, but like, and then I think about the like Gale and the Westons of it all, and I'm probably paying like the same amount, if not more in taxes than fucking those people. Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So there isn't many depictions of processions on vases. They do appear, but it doesn't seem to be as exciting as the actual dead body on a bed and people screaming around it.

• 21:44Liv Albert?

  Interesting, because I feel like there's a ton of like wedding processions on pottery.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah.

• 21:50Liv Albert?

  And like maybe, yeah, and I guess maybe more like festival processions, but yeah, not funerary. That's interesting.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Not as many funerary.

• 21:58Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Lots of dead people, but you know, when we do see them, we often usually just see a body being wheeled out with chariots and mourners surrounding it, women tearing at their hair and screaming. Um, and the procession would lead from the entrance of the family home to where the body would either be buried or cremated. So the preference, I said this earlier, the preference for inhumation and cremation, it swings back and forth so wildly. It it's like you really, there is no. Good pattern for it.

• 22:32Liv Albert?

  Right, so they're just like isn't a preference, really.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just, it just kind of, I think it's more like what's in trend is how I see it. And how that changes throughout time like that happens with us as well.

• 22:44Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Cremation is always expensive. Uh, and when we talk about cremation in antiquity, it is not cremation as we have it now, like cremation now is. We have ovens that can get hot enough that it can burn through bone.

• 22:56Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  And then also what they do, I don't know if you know this, but after a body is cremated. They also go in and like smash up any leftover bits that happen actually, like they will smash the shit out of grandma's bones. So it becomes ash, because honestly, who wants to be given a bag and then it's like, oh, cool, that's.

• 23:15Liv Albert?

  I don't want a chunky bag of remains.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Why do I see a bone? You don't want to see the bone, we, it's just, but however in antiquity, you would be seeing the bones.

• 23:25Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  They just, there's no way to get a fire hot enough to burn bones to ash in antiquity easily.

• 23:33Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  And they're not gonna go in and start beating the shit out of grandma after they're dead, because they, that for them would be very bad.

• 23:40Liv Albert?

  It would, yeah.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  This is why people don't know that we do that now, because.

• 23:45Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  And now I'm broadcasting it.

• 23:47Liv Albert?

  Well, I mean, I'm sure there, like, the key is that you just don't want to know that it happened to your family member, right?

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Cause it's upsetting.

• 23:54Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you don't need to know that.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Exactly, um, so when bodies were cremated, it would be ash and bones. And then you're kind of just put them in a pot, you put a little lid on it and you're like, ta-da. That's how it is. So we get some really interesting things. There's a, there's a burial, um, that was from. Athens, from the archaic period, I want to say. Oh my god, I'm trying to remember the dates for this burial early. So earlier, it's coming out of the Iron Age. Um, it's, it's called the, the rich Athenian lady. Because she was rich.

• 24:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  But we, she was cremated and put in a pot. Um, and we have all her bones and interestingly, we also found fetal bones. So she was either pregnant at the time of death or had given birth and her and the child didn't survive.

• 24:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  So it's, you know, fun.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  We get, we still get information from cremations, is I guess what I'm trying to say.

• 24:56Liv Albert?

  Yeah. It's fun for people like us. It's fine.

• 25:13Liv Albert?

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• 25:53Liv Albert?

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• 26:34Liv Albert?

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• 27:05Speaker 01

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• 27:52Liv Albert?

  I, just because you said Athens too, like I just want everyone to know if you go to Athens, you really need to go to the Karamikos Ancient Cemetery site. It's like one of the ones that's included in like the combo ticket. If you just spend the extra little bit with the Acropolis and you get access to all the sites. Karamikos is amazing. It's mostly just like this big park with a bunch of ruins, but really incredible funerary stuff. And also really great wildlife. It's one of my favorite places to go for wildlife. If you go in September, I'm willing to bet you will see tortoises trying to fuck. I'm not joking. You'll see tortoises regardless, but in September, I have learned they are fucking.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  They got stuff going on then.

• 28:35Liv Albert?

  They do. I have seen

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Each other.

• 28:38Liv Albert?

  More attempted, not actual attempted threesomes, but like literally fights between two males over one one, one female. I have seen that like five times between the Agora and Karamikos, just over the months of September, like a couple of years in a row. Anyway, sorry. Karamikos is amazing.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. The nice thing about Karamikos as well is you can see the, uh, the base of the Diplyon Gate, which is pretty fun.

• 29:03Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  I, I mean, I like that.

• 29:07Liv Albert?

  No, historically, it's really, it's a great site and it's just beautiful and it's really under, understated.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Yes. Cause graveyards would be outside of the city. So it was outside of the city walls originally. And as time flew on, it kinda, we enveloped it. Well, but I find that really interesting when you look at Mycenae though, because a grave circle A is inside. And I believe we've even found, um, if I'm remembering correctly, there are other Mycenaean sites where they have some of their grave areas are inside the city walls. And like grave circle A, it was like the, it was there before the walls were built. So they purposely built the wall to include this grave circle.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  And I just, that's really interesting because all throughout antiquity, otherwise in, you know, the archaic classical Hellenistic Roman period beyond, you would never have a burial site within the city limits. It would always be outside.

• 30:06Liv Albert?

  No, that is interesting, which, but like that, to go back to the Karamikos thing too, cause the, the Dipylon Gate, like the reas, or the wall you can, the reason it's there is that they, like it was on the outside and then the Persians attacked and in a pinch, like they, it's the, the Themistoclean wall also called that, right? Like it's, yeah. So like Themistocles, like in a pinch was like, we have to, and they like used pieces of other graves to build this wall quickly. Cause they were like fucked. Uh, and so yeah, it's really interesting because it is like this awkward wall. That's like right in the middle of an ancient cemetery. Because all of these, yeah, different things led up to that. And it's very cool.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  So when it comes to inhumation and earlier period periods bodies um were usually simply placed into the ground wrapped in a shroud. Sometimes on a bed of leaves. Um later there are coffins, but it doesn't really seem to be a requirement. I I really think you could kind of just. Throw a body in a hole if you so wished.

• 31:06Liv Albert?

  Um yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Clean made of remains.

• 31:09Liv Albert?

  Sorry, it's interesting. They just feel like they really were kind of, you know, they just didn't. As soon as the person was gone, they were gone and I.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you you treat the body with respect, but I think it um culturally, we have different understandings of what that looks like.

• 31:25Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  For them. Like when I say throw it in a hole, I don't literally think they would just kind of like roll it into the hole.

• 31:30Liv Albert?

  They were kind to it, but it just, yeah, it didn't matter whether it was in a coffin or not. Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  And coffins were expensive.

• 31:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Um and you know, it really depends on what you have, what you can afford. Yeah, and there were other things that are a little bit more important to pay for I it's maybe in some ways and. It's just about what is available to each individual family, which I guess is true for now even.

• 31:59Liv Albert?

  I just like there's a higher expectation of like, you know, you're doing wrong if you can't afford like a ton of stuff. And I mean, maybe it was like that back then too, but I like seeing this idea of like, hopefully they, you know, they were going kind of within their means in order to honor the dead.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  And I think it's gonna be different to compare um comparing a like um urban site to more of a rural site.

• 32:21Liv Albert?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Urban sites, you are more likely to, I would think, want to have a bit more of a show going on. There's a lot of people there who could see. So you want to put on a bit of a bit of an extravagance compared to a rural site, especially if you're really in an area where it's maybe just. You, extended family and a few other people.

• 32:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  I you're more likely to go bury them somewhere close by and really simple because it's just about.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  What works for the family.

• 32:52Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um. If a cremated body would still also be buried, they did not keep the cremations like we do, you know? There is no grandma on the mantle in ancient Greece. Grandma is in the pot in the ground. Like, she's not sticking around. They don't want a dead body in their home longer than they need it to be.

• 33:13Liv Albert?

  Respect, respect.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  It's fair.

• 33:16Liv Albert?

  To each their own.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  But there's a pollution aspect to it, you know, death is polluting at the end of the day, even. You know, caught, um. Killing of animals is, is, I mean, I go, huh, they sometimes kill dogs to purify an area, which um, I don't appreciate.

• 33:34Liv Albert?

  No, they also, they'll bury dogs in cemeteries because they love them so much, so.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Ah, Margarita.

• 33:41Liv Albert?

  Is it?

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Is it? Margarita was a, it's a, so Margarita is Latin, it means pearl. Um, but there is a grave stele, I wanna say it's from the south of France, but I could be very wrong. There is a grave stele to a, a little white dog named Margarita. That someone left talking about how much they loved her and like she would sit on their lap and all these things. There's another one that gets me, I don't know where the other one was found, but uh, on it, it, these are Roman ones too, because apparently those are the ones that stick in my mind. But. There's a grave stele to a dog that says, um, I carried you here today, just as I carried you into my home the first time when you were, when you were a baby. Puppy and I was like, oh, God.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  So we've always felt this way about our dogs. This is good to know. But, you know, that's fine. So yeah, so cremated remains would still be buried. This is still important. Um, people would then leave all sorts of offerings with the deceased individuals. This would include jewelry, precious metals and stones. Pottery, weapons, terracotta wares. Goes on and on and on. There's literally no limit. It just leave what you can, I guess.

• 34:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  It has been noted that often there were more grave goods found with bodies that were cremated, interestingly. Um, I think it has to do with wealth.

• 35:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah, cost of cremation is, yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Cremation is more expensive. I don't think it is nowadays, actually. I think actual burial is.

• 35:14Liv Albert?

  I would assume so, yeah.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:16Liv Albert?

  Logistically.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  I know where I'm gonna be buried.

• 35:19Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's on Salt Spring Island. Uh, no, I'm gonna pay for it eventually because I just, when I die, I don't want my people to have to pay for it. But it's a natural, it's a natural graveyard. They will literally just throw your body into a hole.

• 35:33Liv Albert?

  Oh, on Salt Spring.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me feed the earth. I wanna be worm food.

• 35:39Liv Albert?

  And Salt Spring's a lovely place.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Oh, it's great. I love Salt Spring. I know, I've already visited the cemetery because, um, it's me. I like cemeteries. It's fine. It's not weird. It's normal. Um, so likely at the tomb, there was some sort of ceremony that would mark the end of it all. Perhaps relatives pouring a libation of sort. Libations were incredibly popular for, um, death or anything related to deceased bodies or anything cathonic because they were easy to get into the ground.

• 36:11Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you're like feeding the earth with it, yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. Um, there are even some Greek and Roman tombs. This is really fun. Greek and Roman tombs that have pipes that lead from the earth to where the body is. So you could directly pour a libation in and it would go straight to their body.

• 36:27Liv Albert?

  They're just giving them like wine straight to the corpse. Oh, I respect that so much.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Just throw a little bit of olive oil down there. It's important. Grave can be marked with a number of things, you know, large pot, marble stelae. Uh, stelae often had, could have a number of scenes on it. There was no sort of canon for what was, um, best. But often the focus of it seemed to be on the person who was buried themselves.

• 36:52Liv Albert?

  Picturing some from Karamikos.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we see young men in military contexts or, you know, sometimes they'll even have like a wound on them.

• 37:01Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  It's the indication of this is the wound that killed them. Um, or in sport contexts, um, there's birthing scenes. There is, that's, I did a whole project on, uh, birth and antiquity and how I got my depictions were from stelae.

• 37:16Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  There are so many scenes of women giving birth on stelae's. That's what took them out.

• 37:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Happens. Women and men with their families. So often the deceased would be like sitting down and then their family would be standing around them. Uh, young girls would be depicted in wedding clothing. So we get that sense that they didn't actually get to get to this point in their life.

• 37:38Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's sort of like a little, they get to have it in the next life or in, you know, whatever happens next. And I really enjoy, the thing that I love about these stella and what they depict is I really enjoy that the focus is on the individual and not some like larger religious context. Like I said, I love graveyards. This is, uh, if you ever in Italy, go to an Italian graveyard. It is amazing. They will have, um, on the gravestones, they will have a picture of the person.

• 38:14Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I've seen that. I went to a, a cemetery in the south of France in this little town uh, called Pezenas, but it, it, we just happened by it when I was there a few years ago. And yeah, it was also incredible, just like the, the history over, you know, in Europe as compared to the, yeah, colonial.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  I just really enjoy being able to walk around. I, I mean, I, I love walking around cemeteries.

• 38:43Liv Albert?

  Um, to the listeners also, before Michaela and I knew each other, we lived on for the first year that I was back in B C and like the year that I started the podcast, we lived on opposite ends of this like enormous cemetery in Vancouver. Like I lived at the south end and she lived at the north end, but like otherwise like basically

• 39:03Liv Albert?

  it was really cute. Yeah.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  That's really insane.

• 39:05Liv Albert?

  I used to smoke weed in that cemetery, like every evening.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  I used to walk the pugs.

• 39:13Liv Albert?

  Satellite one, cause there's a satellite one south of forty first.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 39:18Liv Albert?

  And that's the one that was really close to my house, so.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I was in the one right off thirty third.

• 39:26Liv Albert?

  Vancouver to you all.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  They'll know it if they're from here.

• 39:30Liv Albert?

  Mount Pleasant. I was just moving away. I mean, we don't, neither of us still live there. Yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  You know, I don't live there anymore.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:41Liv Albert?

  Both of us.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  It could have been better. It could have been worse. At least there was a graveyard.

• 39:47Liv Albert?

  That's so true. So true.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  There's no graveyards by me now and I yearn for the grave.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  I really do.

• 39:57Liv Albert?

  Oh.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Graves. So after burial, at least in the classical period, there is the per diemnon or the final funeral banquet. The wake, I guess. And it would sort of, it would close out all the ceremonies around death. Because when you are doing all these ceremonies around death, your life is in a different state, right? You're not, eh, life isn't as normal. Um, you are in mourning. You know, we have our mourning periods. Person, a widow will wear a black dress for a year or something. I don't know what the rules are.

• 40:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 40:32Speaker 02

  But this per diemnon would close it off. It would be held in the household of the deceased and um, it was a way for all the relatives to come together one last time and show support for each other. And as like I said, an official way to mark going back to life as normal.

• 40:50Liv Albert?

  I don't know enough about Jewish tradition to say this confidently, but it sounds more like something out of, like I, I read a novel once that was like about sitting shiva, which I don't know enough about, but again, but it just like sounds to me more, like which makes sense because the, you know, the religion is coming from a similar time period. Um, but yeah, it sounds, it sounds more similar to that than kind of anything that I ever experienced in a pseudo-Christian quote unquote upbringing.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And it's really interesting. These meals are really important. Um, and you see people actually were like, um, because you're still supposed to throughout the year. Do, do certain ceremonies on certain days from like after the death, like on, you know, the third day is when you actually bury and then like, the 19th day you do something and then so on, so forth for a full year. And people would also continuously throughout time. Um, you're supposed to still take care of the grave. This is often like the women of the family would go to the grave and take care of it, clean it up. Leave some sort of offering, um, make it pretty. They tie little like fillets, little ribbons on things because they love doing that. Those were the ritual thing.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  And also you would continue to remember your family by going to them and they would like share meals. With the deceased person in the sense that they would like eat a meal at the grave. Um, and in like, in the Roman period, we have, um, grave sites where there's literally, the ancient Greeks and Romans, they, um, ate their meals on beds. Laying down, um, not sitting upright. So you can go to Greek.

• 42:26Liv Albert?

  It's not messy at all. The popcorn I find in my bed just from a little bit of snacking and these people are lounging and eating.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  I know, I know. It's wild. I mean, I was like kind of at like an incline, but like still.

• 42:39Liv Albert?

  It's like a little bit like a chaise lounge, I feel like from the imagery, yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  But, um, there's like graves, Roman graves you can find that have these beds built into the front of them. So your family could come back, clean it off. They all lay down and they, they have a meal. Um, and it was like you were sharing, um, your deceased family member in with the meal for the last, for another time again. You know, you keep going, kind of like, uh, like Dia de los Muertos where you, uh, every year you're still remembering the people who have come before. Um, and who would no longer here with us.

• 43:12Liv Albert?

  Not to bring it down, but just throughout this conversation. I've just been reminded that we're about a week off from, uh, when I found out that my.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 43:24Liv Albert?

  Uh, childhood slash teenage, a year off, a year from when I, yeah, my childhood slash teenage best friend, I was completely estranged with and it's the most terrible story, um. But and also she was my spookiest friend. We would have gone to the Ross Base Cemetery. That's a something that caught got cut out earlier. Um, but anyway, she died about a year ago and I thank you. I'm sort of remembering that I'm laughing because it's the most. I mean, she died like a month before then Lupin did. So I just the most fucked up. Experiences of my life, not least. Oh, you have no like the the details. In any case.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I remember.

• 43:58Liv Albert?

  Thank you though. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it began. The year that was the year, but. Uh, yeah, no, but it's honestly, even like talking about that, though, is nice to have this. Reminder, like I'm appreciating that I'm being reminded that it's been almost a year just by this conversation, you know, it's. Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  It is. I think it's important. It's it's one of those things where, you know, we see this in antiquity, like that this was so important for them then. And it's still important now. It's one of those things I love where it's that human. Um, the humanness that kind of spans across time where you see this is so important for us. Remembering the people who we were close to, who are no longer here or who came before us like this is. It is a very human thing to feel. Super connected to that and to not want to let go of that or forget it.

• 44:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  And to. Just keep, keep it around. Like I have things like I have my, my grandparents, um, wedding photo up in the room and you know. They're, they're, they're both passed away now and but.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  I get to see them every day.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  I wear my, uh, my no comas, my grandmother on my mom's side. I wear her wedding ring and wedding. I can speak wedding ring. And engagement ring. Um, I wear that. And it's just a way I can keep her close to me. And then I also, you know this, I have my two necklaces that I wear. I'm not wearing them today, but I have these two necklaces I wear. Um, and the. One of them has the ashes of my dog Zero in it. And then the other one has the ashes of my other dog Zoe in it. Some of them and it's just. I get to keep them close at hand. And I think it's a, it's an important thing, but you know, also sometimes grandma ends up in the closet, which is um, something some family members will get.

• 45:52Liv Albert?

  I mean, I have, I have such complicated feelings about this because I, I didn't get Lupin's ashes. Because I was so emotional because it was like, one of those times where I tried and tried and tried. And then at eleven thirty at night, we had to rush into the hospital and an hour later I had to make the choice. And then they're like, do you want? And I was like, I don't, the idea of him coming back like that was going to kill me. Um, and so I have like such complicated feelings because I don't have those. And now I'm like, I don't want, I wouldn't have wanted the whole thing because that it feels like too much pressure. And it's also like, I don't need, like, he is gone.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm scared of the idea of the, uh, the shelf of ashes. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, I have so many animals. I have to at some point choose who's staying and who's going.

• 46:37Liv Albert?

  And so I'm just like, okay, I'm like, I'm okay that I didn't get it. But one thing I did do, and so hearing you talk about your jewelry. And, and you know what? If any listeners have suggestions for this, Jenny Williamson, of course, sent me one and gave me the idea. But it was like a bit, a very expensive American. And I would just love to have, if there's a Canadian option for someone like this. But I kept Lupin's whiskers in a way that was like very unhinged during his lifetime.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  I have a, I have a jar of Crow's whiskers.

• 47:08Liv Albert?

  Well, and like, but Lupin's were like four inches, like five inches long. They're the longest. I've never seen a cat with longer whiskers than him. They would like stand out. They're like big and long and curly. And so I have like an enormous number of his whiskers. And so I want to get something like that made, like some piece of jewelry. With, I mean, honestly, like the volume of whiskers I have, I could make like a tiny cat. Um, but like jewelry would be great. And I've already started keeping squids for the same reason. Um, so anyway, yeah, it's just like, it's, but it is nice. Yeah. It's nice to have that connection. Like, yeah. And I think it, it would, it's a nice reminder. And I've been thinking about this a lot, but I don't, I, I'm trying not to like, I don't,

• 47:49Liv Albert?

  I have, you know, on and off mental health, but um, like, I just think that it is a really great reminder of like the importance of just like general humanity and uh, and respect for the dead. And

• 48:05Liv Albert?

  What we're, what is happening in the world right now is the exact opposite of that. Like not least, all of the, the mass murdering of innocent people. But particularly also like, you know, if you can justify the mass murdering, which is I, I know people can and I cannot. But like the, the treatment afterwards even.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:24Liv Albert?

  You know, like refugee camps where people are completely burned to ashes or, or the, the, the image that, that came out of the hospital that, that Israel recently bombed where a person burnt alive with the ICU or the, the thing still in his arm. Um, anyway, uh, so I just, I think we need to go back to this idea that like humans are fucking humans and

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:48Liv Albert?

  And like, you know, say what you want about war. Um, this isn't one, it's an extermination, but it, it, say what you want about war, but like the respect for human decency and like the, yeah, we're all kind of forgetting that everyone is fucking human right now, no matter, um, you know, what color their skin is or whether they're Muslim.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Whether they, what they follow, what they do in their life, it is, there is, and like.

• 49:12Liv Albert?

  But we're all human. Yeah. Could we, can we ju- like, I know, like, I mean, ceasefire now, everything like that's, it needs so much more than a ceasefire, but like just the little bit of, of human fucking empathy to recognize

• 49:25Speaker 02

  That somebody's.

• 49:26Liv Albert?

  Real human beings.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that is.

• 49:29Liv Albert?

  Well, they're wiping out entire families.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  That's somebody's.

• 49:31Liv Albert?

  That's how they do it. Yeah.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Brother, sister, mother.

• 49:33Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Father, grandfather, like somebody loves that person.

• 49:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  How would, like, just, just put yourself in that position, but.

• 49:42Liv Albert?

  But we've reached this point where they're just so dehumanized that like that, that's like the basic step is like, first off, Palestinians and Lebanese people are human.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:53Liv Albert?

  Let's go from there.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  And just like, just, just stop. There's no argument.

• 49:57Liv Albert?

  No, they're human.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Let's just state the fact, like it.

• 50:01Liv Albert?

  Anyways. Yep. Anyway, sorry. And we waited to the end, guys. You're welcome.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  All the love. Yay, death.

• 50:12Liv Albert?

  Yay, natural death that is then honored by the humans around.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:17Liv Albert?

  Because we're all human and deserve.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Take grandma out of the closet.

• 50:22Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Out of the Safeway, plastic bag. Put her somewhere good.

• 50:32Liv Albert?

  That, my friends, was Hermes Historia. No, but for real, like, I, we didn't fully get to say it because we recorded the first two up front, but, um, like, this is, I think, gonna be really fun. To the listeners, we're gonna get Michaela a better microphone. Um, I promise. No, and I am so sorry, because I should have done it already, but I'm working on-

• 50:49Speaker 02

  I only have this mic for gaming. It's-

• 50:51Liv Albert?

  I, yeah. Well, and I'm, you know, you're gonna get one, but I'm in the process of preparing for a move that is going to take seven to eight days of driving. Um, so, you know.

• 51:02Liv Albert?

  Also, a thing that I will announce publicly, once I get there, um, the crazy, ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous thing I did.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  And I'll come hang out at your place while you're driving.

• 51:12Liv Albert?

  No one will be surprised. Yeah. Um, in any case, so, you know, there's luck going on, but we will be, uh, upping the quality, particularly once we're charging for this. We're still working out the details of the subscription. Um, mostly because we're gonna try to be doing everything on our own, uh, and it's gonna be really great going forward. So, until then, you get these free ones, and we're finding our stride. Um, if you're listening on Spotify, comment, because a bunch of people commented on the first two, and it made me so excited. Michaela's making a face. Um, but I know she loves it. She just is like me seven years ago, when I had trouble taking any kind of, I mean, I'm still not great at taking praise.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, just give me seven years.

• 51:50Liv Albert?

  But yeah, I've, I have a lot of experience on her, so we'll get there.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Yes. I'll figure it out.

• 51:56Liv Albert?

  Read any credits, but you're on with me, so obviously this was written by Michaela, because like, you just heard her read it, so.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  It's me.

• 52:03Liv Albert?

  It is.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Penguish.

• 52:05Liv Albert?

  Michaela, do you have?

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:07Liv Albert?

  You do, Michaela Penguish, you exist. Do you have a catchphrase for the end of this episode? Do you wanna sign off? I'm, I'm Liv, and I won't say my catchphrase, because this is Michaela's episode.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  I'm Michaela, and I love this shit.

• 52:23Liv Albert?

  I was just, I was just putting on the spot, trying to make you come up with one.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Give me a couple of weeks to make me think. I'm not that creative. My, um, put me on the spot.

• 52:30Liv Albert?

  I mean, you think that mine was creative, and not just the first thing that came out of my mouth? Do you think that?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  So mine's gonna be, "I love this shit," with a question mark.

• 52:40Liv Albert?

  Honestly, that's how we got this entire fucking podcast. The title, first thing that came to my mind.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  We'll figure it out for November.

• 52:47Liv Albert?

  First thing that came to my mind. Somebody messaged me and they were like, I like it. And I was like, I guess I'm gonna do it every time.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 52:53Liv Albert?

  You're welcome.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Great.

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