Matt Damon

Matt Damon has worked with all the great filmmakers but it's his 3rd go round with Christopher Nolan that may just have resulted in the role of his career as Odysseus in THE ODYSSEY. He joins Josh to talk about the role, the gratitude he feels, and how much he owes his female stunt double. Plus, a 2021 flashback chat talking about the roles that got away including AVATAR and THE DARK KNIGHT! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  It's nighttime, there are towers on fire, there's a thousand extras in battle armor running through the streets, there's all this fight choreography going on. And I'm walking through all this and Hoitam is behind me with the camera on his shoulder. A guy runs by, he's on fire. He's part of the film. It's part of the film, part of the film. This is all planned. No, there's a safety team waiting for him, like this is all coordinated somehow. And, and Chris calls cut and Hoitam puts the camera down and turns to me and goes, "This is a flashback."

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy Sad Confused begins.

• 1:41Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused. Today, our exploration of the Odyssey continues with the man himself, Odysseus is in the house, Matt Damon, back on the podcast, plus a special blast from the past with Matt. Hey guys, thanks as always for checking out Happy Sad Confused. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube and Spotify. Don't miss a single episode. We give you the best in film and TV, week in, week out, we do our best. So hopefully by now you're a subscriber. If not, get with the program, guys, come on. So most recently, we've shared our... Christopher Nolan conversation, a blast from the past, Christopher Nolan, and we had to continue covering The Odyssey because this is one that demands multiple episodes,

• 2:24Josh Horowitz?

  and there will be more to come, safe to say. But this episode features Odysseus himself, Matt Damon. This is another one like the Christopher Nolan episode, I will say. This is a bit of an unusual format, because as I said on the Chris Nolan conversation, they weren't really doing the long-form chats too much for this leg of the publicity tour. But I couldn't skip out on The Odyssey because of that. So what I did was, and I had the same discovery I had with Chris Nolan, which is, I have a Happy Sack Confused episode with Matt Damon that has never been shared in video form. We talked back a few years ago during the pandemic times, when we were just starting to pivot to video. I did Matt over

• 3:06Josh Horowitz?

  Zoom, but we never ran the video yet. At that time, we just weren't doing it. So what you're gonna see in here today, however you're enjoying this, is my most recent conversation with Matt Damon about The Odyssey. Fantastic. Talk a lot about this amazing opportunity. We even tease actually a little bit about his upcoming movie with the Daniels, which I'm very excited about, and more. We pack a lot into 10 minutes. But then after that, you're gonna get kind of a bonus episode that very few people have heard, let alone no one has seen, except for me, this conversation with Matt Damon way back when, which has so much great stuff in it, I will say. This has this fantastic story about the Michael

• 3:46Josh Horowitz?

  Mann version of Good Will Hunting that nearly happened. This has stories about turning down Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight, speaking of Christopher Nolan. This has stories about auditioning for Robin in Batman. Yeah, there's some amazing stuff in this conversation. So I couldn't believe I had never shared the video before, so I'm thrilled this gives an excuse to give this a little love. So that's the main event today. As always, quick reminder, remember, check out our Patreon, because that's what helps support and make this show week in and week out. Patreon.com/happysecconfused, early access, discount codes, autographed merch, access to our live events. Reminder, I'll be in San Diego in just a few days,

• 4:30Josh Horowitz?

  moderating panels on Friday, Blade Runner 2099, and Saturday, Apple. And that's gonna include Silo, Widows Bay, Matchbox the Movie, tons of really cool stuff. So I hope to see some of you guys out there in person in San Diego. Okay, let's get right to it. We continue to revel in all things The Odyssey, this huge, huge event that is the latest from Christopher Nolan. First up, you're gonna see and hear this new conversation with Matt Damon, followed very quickly thereafter with this blast from the past that nobody's ever seen. So enjoy Matt Damon for your eyes and ears right now on Happy, Sad, Confused. Matt, good to see you, man.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Great to see you.

• 5:10Josh Horowitz?

  You played this one well. You slow-played it. You know, you did the, you turned down Harvey Dent. Back in the day, we talked about that. Then you take the two supporting roles. It's the Killian Murphy school. You slow-played.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Play the long game. I learned it from Killian.

• 5:25Josh Horowitz?

  But it has to be a moment, like in a career filled with moments. To get the call for this, this director, this film, tell me about it.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  It was just the greatest call I could, I could ever want professionally. And, and the experience was, was just, it lived up to every, everything I could have ever wanted. It was so challenging, not just for me, for everybody. And, and that, that, the experience of trying to do something this ambitious, you know, a story that's this foundational to, you know, Western culture and, and, you know, all in IMAX. I mean, the whole thing was just this insanely ambitious undertaking. And to get to be a part of that was, was just, just phenomenal.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you've worked with the best of the best. We've, we've gone through the list of filmmakers in your career, and you've obviously worked with Chris now a few times. You've worked with Ridley, and you know, and he's like the school of Ridley in some ways. This is kind of his Ridley Scott movie, I feel like, in some ways.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:30Josh Horowitz?

  Like, being on these sets, these six different countries, all these extras, there must be those moments where you're like... This is, this doesn't happen anymore.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, every day. I mean, look, there was a scene, we were shooting Troy and it's nighttime, there are towers on fire, there's a thousand extras in battle armor running through the streets. There's all this fight choreography going on and I'm walking through all this and Hoyt, Van Hoyt is behind me with the, with the, with the camera on his shoulder. A guy runs by, he's on fire.

• 6:59Josh Horowitz?

  He's part of the film.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Part of the film, part of the film. This is all planned. No, there's a safety team waiting for him like this is all coordinated somehow.

• 7:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  And, and Chris calls cut and Hoyt puts the camera down and turns to me and goes, "This is a flashback."

• 7:18Speaker 02

  And we just started laughing. We were like, "Oh my God, the scale of this."

• 7:21Josh Horowitz?

  Just a little insert.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, just a little flashback, yeah.

• 7:24Josh Horowitz?

  This is a question only you can answer. What's, what's worse, living inside of a horse with 50 men or rooming with Ben Affleck for a time?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  I'm gonna have to choose the horse for that one. It was, it was, it was, it was tough inside the horse. But, you know, shooting that, Chris, I asked him, I was so curious how he was gonna do it and, and he said, "I don't know." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "No, we're just gonna get in there." And it's such an interesting thing with him. He really has a deep understanding of all the elements he's gonna need and he's on top of every bit of design and he's meticulous. This attention to detail is incredible and it's, I mean, legendary.

• 7:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  But he still shoots like an independent film. He still discovers the moments and, and you still have incredible creative freedom within, within the context of what he's, what he's building around you. So it's, it's, it's how he gets what he gets.

• 8:12Josh Horowitz?

  Does the appreciation kind of grow greater as you've, you know, you've walked some miles now in the career and like, I would imagine you-

• 8:18Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 8:19Josh Horowitz?

  And, and you know, the ups and downs happen for anybody. Do you take a moment on set? I mean, the job is the job. You have to focus on the job, but I would hope maybe moments like this, you can kind of take a moment.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  No, even on set, I felt like a real sense of gratitude every day. That, like, even, you know, whatever, whatever came of the film, the fact that I got to have the experience of, of doing something at that scale, the way David Lean would have done it, you know, was just like, but this, because those opportunities are, you know, few and far between and-

• 8:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Uh, particularly at my stage in my career.

• 8:50Josh Horowitz?

  You're talking like you're like Hume Cronin, like you're like-

• 8:52Speaker 02

  No, but, but, but, well, I'm older than Wilford Brimley when he did Cocoon, so-

• 8:57Josh Horowitz?

  I've been tracking, I'm about to pass it myself.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Comes up quicker than you think. So, so I was, I, I, I did think about that a lot, yeah.

• 9:07Josh Horowitz?

  I can congratulate you on three fronts, the, the acting, the beard, and I'm not one to objectify, but this is the great, greatest bicep work I've seen outside of a Hemsworth.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Thank you. Oh, wow, that's high praise. That's very high praise. I'll tell Chris.

• 9:20Josh Horowitz?

  Like, all the credits, it should have said, like, with Zendaya and Matt Damon's biceps. Like, it needs, like, its own title card, I feel like.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Well, you know, when we did the forced perspective stuff of the Leste Stragonians, I don't know if there's been a thing about how we did it, but there were, you know, there were these kind of stuntmen who were, who were all seven feet, right? And then they got stuntmen who were under five feet. And so my double was a woman, a female stunt performer, who had the greatest arms I've ever seen. And when she came into the catering tent, was the first time I met her, I went up and I hugged her and like, and so, you know, and, and I thanked her for like, all the work she'd put in. And, and so there are those shots in the movie where you see these giants looming over me.

• 10:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  And, and that's so, so it was almost 100% my arms in the movie, but.

• 10:10Josh Horowitz?

  You gotta give it where it's due.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  You gotta, gotta give it up where it's due.

• 10:13Josh Horowitz?

  Um, give me a sense, like, you've had, again, had moments in the career, I'm sure, seeing the finished product, sitting in a theater. Like, is there anything you can equate this to, like, a moment going back?

• 10:21Speaker 02

  No. No, and I don't think I've had the experience of being so overwhelmed. I feel like I put so much into it. It, it, it came at such a cost, and it was such a joy.

• 10:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  That my expectations, I just would have been unrealistic for, and so like, I almost couldn't, couldn't see it. It's like, you know, and, and, and then I sat, and then, and then I saw it in IMAX and, and I got it. And I was like, wow, I'm, I, you know, this was. It was a kind of capstone moment, you know, in my, in my, in my career. I'm, I feel real grateful I got a chance to do it.

• 10:59Josh Horowitz?

  What do you do the day after a rap? Like what's, is it right to the spa? Like what happens?

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Go home.

• 11:05Josh Horowitz?

  Look at your family. Yeah, exactly. You went home. We made it.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  I made it home. Yeah.

• 11:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And also like, look, you're number one on the call sheet, obviously. But that being said, this is like an ensemble, like you've never seen.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:16Josh Horowitz?

  And you've been number one a lot in your career. But like, it must just be such a, you know, you, you know that responsibility. But to look around and to see the company of actors, he's assembled around you.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  It's incredible. And, and, and it also meant that every day I was working with some other extraordinary person. And, and, and they all just slotted right into their roles. They fell right into these roles and they were, they were so good. You know, and obviously that makes my job so much easier when you're acting opposite somebody who's, who's that dialed in. It just, it just, it, it, it makes, makes the entire experience just a joy.

• 11:53Josh Horowitz?

  You adding the Daniels to your resume too? It sounds like you're gonna work with them.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:56Josh Horowitz?

  How insane does that script read? I can only imagine.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's, it's, it's exactly what you'd hope.

• 12:03Josh Horowitz?

  In that I have no idea what to expect.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  And that it's, and that it's not like anything you've seen.

• 12:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited to work with them.

• 12:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is that another easy yes when you read that script and you have that conversation?

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also just them, but I really, they're just, they're just lovely people who, who have lovely things to say and wanna put, you know, very positive vibes out into the world.

• 12:26Josh Horowitz?

  Well, we could use some. Last thing, seen anything good lately? Film, TV?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Uh, I just went and saw Obsession the other night with, with the kids. And, you know, at our little local spot. And, and that was great. I really, I thought, you know, I mean, every, I mean, Indy Navarret's incredible. Incredible. But I thought all four of them, all the actors were, were terrific in it. And I'm happy to see, you know, a smaller movie, you know, outkick its coverage that way.

• 12:54Josh Horowitz?

  A 26-year-old, you know something about being the Wonderkin. It's good to see the next one.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  I do, and I'm, and I'm, I'm real happy for, for everyone involved with that one.

• 13:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Congrats on this, man, honestly. Always nice to see you, buddy.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Thanks, great.

• 13:04Josh Horowitz?

  Appreciate you, Josh.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:07Josh Horowitz?

  We'll be right back with more Happy, Sad, Confused.

• 13:13Speaker 00

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• 13:43Speaker 05

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• 14:15Josh Horowitz?

  Hey Matt, how's it going buddy?

• 14:17Speaker 02

  Hello Josh, how are you man?

• 14:19Josh Horowitz?

  I'm doing well. Hello from midtown. I take it you're in the environs, you're in the New York. I feel your presence in the New York.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  I'm in Brooklyn. I'm in Brooklyn. Yeah, I feel your force too. You're within, I can look down, I see midtown out there, here.

• 14:32Josh Horowitz?

  There you go. This has been a long time coming. I've wanted to have you on the podcast forever. Of course, we've talked at junkets and all those kinds of things, but I appreciate you taking the time out for this one. And we chose the right one, I think. Tom McCarthy's a special filmmaker. Congratulations in Stillwater, man.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Thank you, man. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really happy with it.

• 14:50Josh Horowitz?

  So first of all, this made its debut in Cannes. I'm always, I'm endlessly fascinated by the phenomenon of the lengthy standing ovation when it happens in Cannes. And you guys were privileged enough to get one. At what point does the standing O get awkward? After, it feels like five minutes is an eternity. Five minutes may not sound like much to somebody, but that's a long time to stand on your feet while people are clapping.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's, yeah, yeah. It's very strange. And it's awkward immediately.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  There's nothing not awkward about it. Adam Driver, actually, he crushed it this year. Apparently, he lit a cigarette in the middle of the standing way. And he doesn't smoke, but it was like, he just had to, he just wanted to do something. You know, I thought that was really funny. I read about it. I haven't talked to him about it yet. But, but anyway, yeah, it's very odd. But this year, I was, I was really, you know, I kind of oddly emotional. Like, it just snuck up on me that moment of just being back in the movie theater again.

• 15:59Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Just felt so great to be with everyone and, and, you know, and maybe I'm just getting old. I said that to Tom McCarthy. I was like, I think I'm getting old because I'm really emotional right now.

• 16:09Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, we've all been, we were all suffering from PTSD from the last year and a half. I mean, I found myself getting emotional when I was in the theater for Fast Nine, so something is wrong with me.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Listen, that's a tearjerker. Okay, obviously, but obviously, I've read all about it.

• 16:24Josh Horowitz?

  When they go into space, waterworks, man. It's amazing.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Do they go into, do they go into space in Fast Nine?

• 16:30Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, no, I ruined it for you. I'm so sorry.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  You didn't ruin it for me.

• 16:37Josh Horowitz?

  Your career.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  I just got to see the other eight.

• 16:39Josh Horowitz?

  Exactly.

• 16:41Josh Horowitz?

  I know, I knew this about your career, but like when I was prepping for this, I was reminded of the fact that,

• 16:47Josh Horowitz?

  to look at your filmography is to look at like the history of like great filmmakers of the last 25 years. It's kind of insane. I want to get to that in a second, but let's start with like, for me, it's a no brainer that you end up working with Tom McCarthy. So Tom is a fantastic filmmaker. People know him from work as diverse as, you know, Station Agent to Spotlight. From what I gather, he's been trying to get you in his orbit for a while. What happened? Did Dinklage beat you out for Station Agent? What, what, what, what went down?

• 17:18Speaker 02

  I wish I was in Station Agent. I mean, that was when I first became aware of, of Tom, like, you know, and that's interesting you bring, bring up Peter, like, the acting in Tom's movies is always great, you know? And I mean, look, that has a lot to do with the writing and the directing. I mean, he's, he's putting his actors in, in, in a position to, to do good work, but,

• 17:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  I mean, it's uniformly great, you know, I mean, you know, Peter, Cannavale, Jenkins, like all these guys, you know?

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Are just awesome all the time and and I and yeah, I'd been looking for a I you know, I I almost did Spotlight, but it conflicted with The Martian. So I, you know, I it was like I had to choose between a kind of a headlining role and an ensemble role, and they were both great.

• 18:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Um, and I don't like normally saying about, you know, things that, look, a lot of the movies I've done were things that other actors couldn't do. I like I like you're very rarely the first choice for something. And I don't like saying that about Spotlight just because Ruffalo crushed it. And Ruffalo, I think he got nominated for an Oscar and like it's like an amazing performance. So

• 18:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  I always feel like the right actor gets the job. You know what I mean? Like, I looked at Spotlight and I was like, well, thank God, you know, because Mark killed it. Um, I had that happen with Milk um, years ago. Um, I, you know, Gus offered me the part of Dan White that Josh Brolin also got nominated for and Josh is and I literally I had to, I was in the movie. I was doing the research. I was reading. I was watching these documentaries and and I'd kind of doing my deep dive on Dan White and and Sean Penn had a uh, had a conflict. I can't remember what it was, but he had to push the movie six months. And because because it pushed from the fall to the spring, I I I suddenly

• 19:10Speaker 02

  couldn't do it because I already had another job. And so I had to give it up and you know, it wasn't a big part. It, you know, it was a supporting role, but I love that script so much and and I love Gus, obviously. And so it was a hard one to pass up. But then I saw the movie and I saw Brolin and I was like, man, this happened for a reason. Like, this guy's amazing. Um, so anyway.

• 19:33Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, does it ever happen where like, I mean, there are some other famous ones and you've talked in recent years about like Avatar, and I remember, I think we talked briefly at one point about Dark Knight, like when those ginormous cultural phenomenon films come out, do you have a tough time seeing them? Like, is it do you do you have a tough time watching Avatar or Dark Knight, knowing like, oh, wait, I I could have been part of that?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Well, Dark Knight was a small role that I was offered. Like, it was a, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't one, I mean, it obviously wasn't Heath or Christian's part.

• 20:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right. That was the Harvey Dent role, wasn't it? It was the, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  So, and so, like, sometimes you look at a role and you're like, oh, it's, it's good. It's, it's, it's a, it's a good role and a great movie. I mean, I subsequently did a small role in one of Chris's movies.

• 20:20Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Right? In, in, in Interstellar. Like, I, like, I, I wanted to be on, you know, part of that troupe. He, he, he works with the same actors over and over and they're, they're terrific. And, you know, I wanted to jump on that, on that, on that ride, but, um, but there was some other big movie I was doing, like, some big part that I was doing where I was like, well, I can't play, you know, Harvey Dent. You know what I mean? It's like, this is, this is, it's, it's a relatively small role and I'm, I'm headlining this other thing. So, anyway, sometimes those, um, but I think you gotta kind of just be sanguine about it and go like, it, it, it all works out. Like, I mean, at this point, I passed on the biggest payday in the history of, right? I mean, accidentally, but like,

• 21:04Speaker 02

  so I can never do worse financially.

• 21:10Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good way of looking at it.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  I can never commit a worse financial, like, you know.

• 21:15Josh Horowitz?

  Don't, don't doubt yourself. You, I believe in you. You could fuck up even more in the future.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  I, I might be able, maybe I'll figure out some way. There'll be some streaming thing that I could have, you know, owned part of the company or something, you know? And it turns into the next Facebook. But anyway, I, you know, so, but I'm not, you know, you, I, I really do believe the actor gets the part that, that they're meant to get. And, and who knows? Like, you know, had I done Avatar, would I have, would I, would I have written The Last Duel? Would I have, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you know, when Ben and I got really close on Dead Poets Society, not really close, we got called back. That script, well, I mean, I was, I don't know, I was 18 years old and I read this thing and

• 22:00Speaker 02

  and I was like, that's, it's the best script. Robin Williams was the star. I was like, you gotta be kidding me. This is amazing. And it was an open casting for kids to play these prep school kids. And Ben and I were, I mean, you talk about like lit up for something like this was it for us. We were, I mean, it was, it was an unbelievable opportunity and, and I would still say it was, I mean, you look at the careers that came out of that. Ethan Hawke, Robert Sean Leonard, I mean, amazing actors, right? So those guys beat us out and, and Ben and I ended up that summer, working at a movie theater in Cambridge in Harvard Square, at the Janus Movie Theater and the Janus played one movie all fucking summer and it was Dead Poets Society.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  And we had to tear tickets and serve popcorn and, and, and soft drinks to, and, and sweep up after every show and we would watch packed house after packed house coming out wiping tears off their face. And we were like, fuck, that could have been us. You know what I mean? That should have been us. That was us. You know what I mean? And, and we didn't, we didn't get it. And I think there's Garth Brooks song. It's, is there something where he talks about, I thank God for my unanswered prayers? Right, right? Because we wouldn't have written Good Will Hunting. Like we, we ended up writing out of necessity, Good Will Hunting. And guess what? Robin Williams was in it, you know?

• 23:29Josh Horowitz?

  There was a better plan. You just didn't, weren't in control of it necessarily.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  We just weren't in control of it. But so, so you never know. I mean, life is crazy and, and you know, you just gotta keep trying to do good work and, and you know, I mean, had I, had I done Avatar, it's like my favorite John Krasinski story, like when, when we were writing Promise Land together and I told John that I passed on 10% of Avatar. John jumped up and he starts walking around the kitchen and he's like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. He goes, nothing in your life would be different. Nothing, Matt. Nothing in your life would be different if you had done Avatar. Except you and I would be having this conversation in space.

• 24:14Josh Horowitz?

  With Richard Francis and Chef Bezos. Yeah, exactly.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  That's it. And then, and then the guys who actually have that money actually launch themselves in giant space penises, like space rockets, penis rockets, and fucking go to space. It's like, you can't write this shit.

• 24:30Josh Horowitz?

  No, you can't. So coming full circle, yes. Tom McCarthy came back to you thankfully with the right role and the right project. This is a fascinating one. It makes sense in Tom's work if you look at it, because it kind of combines the different elements he's done. It's like, it completes his like displaced men box set, which I feel like is like the visitor and station agent. But it also has this like amazing kind of procedural thriller kind of aspect of spotlight. And I think that's what makes it work and what makes it endlessly fascinating is it kind of keeps kind of, I don't know, just like it keeps you on your toes. But I would also imagine that's the fear is like, can we blend all

• 25:11Josh Horowitz?

  this together? Is this character study and this thriller all gonna blend together? Did you have concerns as a writer, as a creator going in that this was all gonna kind of gel?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  I mean, if you're really literal about things and you need to, and you need to put it in a genre. I mean, and I think in America, that's definitely more the case with critics. Like, they need to, I know, what is this? What are you showing me right now? You know what I mean?

• 25:37Josh Horowitz?

  What's the comp? Give me...

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Right. It's like they think the way studios think, right? Like, and, and that's kind of the way we talk about the film business in this country. But for me, it's like, all right, it's about this character. Are you, are you gonna go on the ride with him? If you buy what I'm doing, then just get on the bus and go. And the movie takes you to really... Surprising places and and and and like, yeah, I mean, you're just you you can't predict like Tom said to me, we're making it like I defy you moviegoer to tell me where this movie is going to take you like.

• 26:17Josh Horowitz?

  Totally, yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  You know, when you sit down because you're because it does it does look like a very pat, you know, it does look like a like a movie we've seen before with the setup, right?

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  You you it goes, well, OK, this movie is telling me a really traditional thing that American movies tell me like I'm about to sit down for an awesome Liam Neeson movie.

• 26:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, and.

• 26:39Josh Horowitz?

  It's gonna kick ass and take names.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, or Jason Bourne, for that matter, same kind of like like those characters. It's like, you know, they have a particular set of skills, you know what I mean? And they're gonna and and this guy doesn't have any of that. He doesn't speak the language. He doesn't understand the culture that he's he's trying to navigate. He doesn't know what's going on. He's lost. He doesn't know what's going on for most of the movie. He doesn't understand what's happening around him. And and that's a that's a very human story with a very traditional setup, right? And so and so that that throw, I think that's gonna throw people. It's thrown some people, you know, because they go they go, well, you can't do this.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  And it's like, well, no, we're we're taking this setup and we're but we're playing it real. We're playing it. These are this is these are real people. This is a guy who's carrying a lot of pain and grief and and and regret and shame, you know, about his own failures as a man and as a father. And he's trying to repair the damage that he's done with his daughter, and he's still making mistakes. And like, that's the movie. It's a drama, not a thriller.

• 27:51Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, the thriller version of this, like, I mean, I love like the risks and like the the that Tom and you take in that like you kind of skip like the first act that would be in another.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:01Josh Horowitz?

  Thrill, like the like the the conventional version of this is like the first scene in The Fugitive, where like the mystery, the the murder happens and then you're trying to figure it out. But in this, you don't even know that a murder has taken place for 20 minutes. It's kind of crazy.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you pick it up midstream like you like when that was so when people like talk about the Amanda Knox story, which, you know, this is like loosely kind of they used off uses a jumping point kind of like jumping off point like. Because what Tom was interested in was like, what happens to that family like five years later?

• 28:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Like when everyone, all the camera, all the sensationalism, everything's gone away. Like, how do those people live their lives? And, and what if one of them was a roughneck from Oklahoma, from like this really specific place?

• 28:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  And was this really specific thing? Like, what, you know, and he had to interact with that. What like, what, what does that life look like? And so, um, so that's, so you're right. Like, like the movies, the first act kind of, you know, you, you feel almost like you're starting in the second act because they're in the middle of trying to live through this thing with the consequences of the choices that they've made.

• 29:06Josh Horowitz?

  I, I asked for some questions from, from the listeners. So this one is from Magali, who gets at some, some of what we've been talking about. She wanted to know if you've ever experienced the situation of being a stranger and having to deal with cultural differences? And what would you say about being an American in Marseille? You shot a lot of this in Marseille, of course.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I constantly, I'm, it's actually a, like, it's, it's actually become a comfortable place for me to be. I've worked so many times in so many different countries, you know? And there's always that moment where you show up with your suitcase and you're, you don't speak the language and you don't know the city. And you're, you know, and you got to figure it out. And, and I, you know, I, it's crazy. I didn't go to Europe until I was 26, when I went to shoot Saving Private Ryan was the first time I got off of this continent and went over there. Um, and, and subsequently I have traveled so much like that's, it's like, I kind of chuckled when I got that question because that's happened to me so many times.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  But I would just say to anybody who gets the chance to travel to, to, I have a friend who recently told me, which I thought was a great line. He goes, I just say yes. He goes, just to life. He goes, because you know what happens when you say no, you stay in your house. And, and, but when you say yes, something's going to happen. And, and I thought that was such a great, like, something's going to happen. And, and if you can, if you can get your way over there, uh, you know, it, something's going to, something's going to happen. And, and it might just be great.

• 30:40Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy Say Confused coming up.

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• 31:49Josh Horowitz?

  I started this by mentioning how my theory is that your career is kind of like the unofficial history of like great filmmakers of the last 25 years. Indulge me for a second, I'm gonna read the list. This is the partial list of filmmakers. For those that don't like, can't wrap their brains around it, it's kind of startling just to hear them listed. In no particular order: James Mangold, Steven Soderbergh, Alexander Payne, Terry Gilliam, Ridley Scott, Christopher Nolan, Cameron Crowe, Kenny Wonergan, The Coen Brothers, Clint Eastwood, Martin Scorsese, Augustin Manzan, Robert Redford, Anthony Mignelli, Paul Greengrass, Francis Ford Coppola. Many of those you've worked with several times, by the way. It's, I mean, it's a startling list and I guess the general question is how much of it was a strategy and how much of it was happenstance?

• 32:34Josh Horowitz?

  Like, you're a smart guy, you had opportunity, I'm gonna go towards the icons when I can, when I have the opportunity, and how much of it was just sort of like riding the wave?

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Well, it's both things. I mean, I, you know, I had the opportunity and I took it, but I definitely, if I had any strategy at all, it was aligning myself with great filmmakers and, you know, but look, I had to pass on a lot of great filmmakers in that time too. And it's, it's, it's also like, you know, it, it had to, it had to, it had to work out, you know, with, with my life, but I, I always, uh, I always erred on the side of, um, of, you know, somebody, somebody whose movies I loved. Yeah. Um, because I figured, you know, it's like, I was gonna get something out of that, um, experience, you know, and, and, and on balance, if you work with great filmmakers,

• 33:27Speaker 02

  the director's medium, as you know, obviously, so on balance, if you align yourself with great directors, you're gonna make good movies more often than not. And in some of the movies I made didn't work, but,

• 33:38Speaker 02

  but I always got a lot out of the experience. And that was the other thing, like, it's not, you know, I do know actors who kind of approached with the strategy of, oh, I'm gonna do a big one now. And, and if you end up in a movie that is quote unquote big, like, nobody knows what movies are big. Like, you don't know if a movie's gonna work. If, if like, if you could predict what movies were big, then everybody would be an A-list movie star. Like, you, you have to go, you, you have to know why you're there. Um, and, and, and it's such a time and labor-intensive business. I can't imagine working on something that I didn't love, like, and believe in, like, that,

• 34:19Speaker 02

  it just, you still, you're still there for 15 hours every day. Like, I, I actually, I had a movie where, which I won't name, where I figured out, uh, probably one month into a five-month job, that it wasn't gonna work. Right. And, and, and the, and the depression that I went into, you know, but I really came away from that experience and I, and my wife said to me, like, go do, do your job. And it was like, it like released me. I went, yeah, you're right. The definition of a professional actor is somebody who knows they're in a turkey and shows up

• 35:00Speaker 02

  and goes 16 hours strong and with a positive attitude and lifts the people up around them. And it's like, I am gonna, I'm gonna be the band playing on the fucking Titanic. And we're gonna play some weird music. And I'm gonna fucking smile the whole time. Like, this is it. This is what I do. Like, you wanna see me? Like, it was like a challenge. I was like, okay, let's go, you know, and, and, and, uh, and I learned a lot from that, you know, I did, it wasn't just a, just a horrible kind of slog, like self-life defeating slog. I, I, I, I took away a lot of good lessons from that. There's always a lesson, you know?

• 35:38Josh Horowitz?

  The, I feel like there could be 16 different books and practically there have already in different forms of like the making of Good Will Hunting, but I'm always endlessly fascinated by the different versions that there were and the different filmmakers that almost came to direct it. I heard you, I think on Marin the other day, talking about how like Michael Mann was like screen testing you guys or going through auditions. Like, I can't think of a, a more different filmmaker than from Gus Van Sant to Michael Mann. The Michael Mann version, what is the Michael Mann version of Good Will Hunting? What would that have been?

• 36:05Speaker 02

  I don't know. He, I remember he showed us clips of Mexican gangs. And he was like, this is your movie. This is the movie you gotta make. I was like, what? These dudes have neck tats and they're Mexican. Like, that's not at all what South Boston is, man. Well, I like, I didn't understand and he, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think he wanted to take it like in a really dark, like, you know, like, these dudes are like whacking people in the street. And I'm like, yeah, we're not doing the Whitey Bulger thing. Like, we're doing like kids from that neighborhood, but you know? Uh, anyway, but, uh, I just, that was, that's funny. I hadn't thought about that in a long time, but I, but I do remember him showing like,

• 36:49Speaker 02

  to Ben and to me, and we're sitting there and he walked out of the room and we looked at each other like, the fuck is going on?

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Like he said, we wrote it. Like that's our movie. Okay. So you're telling us that's our movie. Like, you know, but he just, but look, I mean, every director comes at it with from their own, you know, the director has it. It is a director's medium. Like I said, so like when we, when, thank God Gus finally, well, thank God Harvey finally gave the job to Gus. We had wanted Gus the whole time.

• 37:21Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  But, but we had an almost ceremonial

• 37:27Speaker 02

  moment where we like gave him the script and we're like, this is yours, man. This is not our movie anymore. I mean, a screenplay is like, it's like an architectural blueprint for a house. Right. It's what you, it's what you think the houses should look like. And then you got to build the house and that's what the director does. And, you know, and, and so we, so we, we had to give it up to him, you know, and he made choices that we wouldn't have made. And thank God he did. He made great choices. He thought of things that we never would have thought of. I mean, that's Good Will Hunting is a Gus Van Sant movie, you know, that we wrote. But, um, but that's, that's what it is.

• 38:08Josh Horowitz?

  Do you remember Ben recently recalled your audition for the Robin role in the Tim Burton Batman? That obviously never came to be. They never actually had Robin in his two films. Do you remember, what's your version of that story? Do you remember?

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Okay. So that, so there's two, there's two stories there. There's, there's the, there's the Robin role. We went down to New York, uh, and that's in like 1986. And I don't really remember that audition. I, it was 1987, maybe 88, 87, 88. I would have been like 16 or 17 and, uh, and I don't remember. I, I remember that we didn't have sides for the, for the, there wasn't like you're reading a scene with Batman. It was like, it was so secretive that it was like, you're reading this other scene. Right. From some other movie. You know, and it's like, I never got the point of that, but there were some movies that did that back then. I mean, I remember auditioning for him. Um, then subsequent to that, in 93,

• 39:07Speaker 02

  I got screen tested. I was one of the final three to play Robin in the George Clooney and the Joel Schumacher Batman. And I, and I, I flew out and I remember I knew Joel, I had met Joel, uh, and I had worked with Duval at that point. Cause I remember talking to him extensively about Duval, cause he had done Falling Down. Right. With Duval and I'm, you know, I was a big Duval guy, Duval and Hackman and, uh, Of course, yeah. Uh, and I had just done a movie with both of those guys, this movie Geronimo. And so Joel and I talked about that. But I remember I tried to, Chris was, Chris O'Donnell already had the part. And, uh, but they were haggling over money.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  And so they, they, you know, the studio was flexing basically by flying in two other people to screen test. But they wanted Chris, but they just wanted him for a price. And I remember, and I knew Chris and I remember calling, I was like, I'll work for a quarter of what that dude's working for. I was like, I want the job. Yeah, so I flew in and auditioned for Joel, but I think they always intended the, I remember seeing Chris while he was making that. We were friends back then and, and, uh, uh, they always intended to give it to Chris. And then there were things, I remember like at that stage in my career, you know, you would go in and read, even if you knew you weren't going to get the part. In fact, um, The Rainmaker, the movie that I did with Coppola,

• 40:32Speaker 02

  Patrick called me, Patrick Weitzel's been my agent for, I don't know, 30 years now. And Patrick called me and he goes, we'd been tracking this thing, because the John Grisham movies were very, were very popular movies, right? Right. They were big, but Francis doing a John Grisham movie was like, Oh, yeah. Like the, the great, you know, it's like, Yeah. The, the Godfather is coming to John Grisham land, like, you know, and, and, and The Godfather was a pulp novel and, and, uh, you know, and Francis talked about that a lot, like, so I, we were tracking that. I had read the book. I'd, And I was like, what is going on? I know they're making it. I know they're making it. And Patrick was trying to track it and he called me out of the blue. I was living in Somerville,

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Massachusetts, because we thought Good Will Hunting was going to go that year. It ended up going the next year. And Ben and I were living up there with Casey and, and I got a phone call and Patrick said, all right, he goes, I'm telling you right now, you have a 5% chance at best of getting this movie. He goes, here's what's going on. There's screen testing in Memphis. They've got three girls that they're screen testing, right? And, and they only have two guys. If you go to the airport right now and get on a plane and fly to Memphis, you're going to be the third guy, but I'm telling you right now, you, you, you have very, you have almost no chance. You're just like, you're just, you're like filling in. And I'm like, great.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Just put me in, like, get me on, get me on the field, right?

• 42:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  And so I went and I flew down there and I knew, so it was, it was Edward Norton, Balthazar Getty and me. And I didn't see Balthazar Getty on that trip, but I saw, but Edward, Edward had beaten everybody out in LA for Primal Fear.

• 42:16Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  And Edward was, you know, I mean,

• 42:20Josh Horowitz?

  He was getting everything. He was the hot shit in town. Yeah, he was.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  And deservedly so. And still one of my favorite actors. And he was a guy who, at that age, like I, you know, you gotta kind of wolf out at that stage of your career and feel like you're the best thing in the room. But it's like, it's like Charles Barkley once told me when he, when he went to play in this like All-American thing where he was in college, his coach told him, Charles, you go up there, you show them, you know, you're, that Alabama, you represent Alabama, you show them you're the best. And Charles got back, he goes, yeah, he goes, you show them, Charles? He goes, yeah, well, there's a dude from North Carolina, he's pretty good.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Played with Jordan, you know, and that's how I felt about Edward. I just, I was like, look, man, I, you know.

• 43:04Josh Horowitz?

  I believe in myself, but I just saw something pretty good across.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  I saw something pretty good. That dude's good. And, uh, and so Edward was there and, and I was like, ah, shit, I'm going up against Edward Norton. He's already Edward Norton.

• 43:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Right. He's already like, I think he'd been nominated for an Academy Award at that point. Fuck, man. Well, well, this shit just got real. And, uh, and I think because they paired me with Claire Danes.

• 43:29Josh Horowitz?

  And it's the combo that worked.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  I really think she got me the part. I really think she that, you know, cause she was so fucking good. I think she got me the part and, and, uh, and, uh, that was, you know, that was a huge, and because I, that, because I got that movie. Miramax, Greenlit, Good Will Hunting.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Right. Because they were, they were like, you know.

• 43:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  You know, I, I remember I faxed Harvey Weinstein. I was like, I'm the Rainmaker. And he was like, what does that mean? And I was like, I got the Coppola movie. And he goes.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  He said the Grisha movie? And I'm like, the fucking Coppola movie? And he goes, oh, the Grisha movie? He goes, all those things make a hundred million dollars.

• 44:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. And so they suddenly. A hundred million dollars. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Right. So we got fast tracked because, and if you ever look at the, the way they opened it, the, the Rainmaker in 97 came out in like November. Good Will Hunting, Hunting started platforming in like early December, like they were piggybacking. They were trying to draft off that. They didn't need to, it turned out, because there was this movie called Titanic and everybody went to the movie. So Good Will Hunting ended up really drafting off of Titanic.

• 44:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Titanic was the number one movie for.

• 44:39Josh Horowitz?

  Like 10 weeks or something.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  After some, yeah, but Well Hunting was the number two movie. Like we just stood in their slipstream.

• 44:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Cause when people couldn't get in, you know, you know, could people were just lined up around the block trying to get into Titanic show after show. And if they couldn't get in, they'd be like, oh, we'll go see that one. And so we, we did a, we did a lot, like that Titanic lifted up everybody who was in the theaters at that time. Like it just was, everybody was going to the movies.

• 45:05Josh Horowitz?

  I know I need to let you go in a sec, but I do want to just hit really quickly on Last Duel. The trailer looks fucking awesome. I could not be more psyched for this, man. This is obviously you and Ridley

• 45:16Josh Horowitz?

  reteaming after The Martian, but as people know, first screenplay that you and Ben have collaborated on, and you have Nicole Holofcenter also writing this, which is fascinating. And just to mention it, one other great aspect is Jodie Comer, who I'm an insane fan of.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  You're gonna be a bigger, you're gonna be a bigger fan of Jodie's after you see this movie.

• 45:35Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, I, I'm

• 45:36Speaker 02

  She's incredible.

• 45:37Josh Horowitz?

  I'm obsessed with her already, yes.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  I, I, I walked away from that experience, there's a certain level of gratitude you feel as a writer when actors make your stuff better. And I, I walked away from Adam and Jodie from that experience just going, I can't, you know, I, I literally can't thank you enough. Like, they are, they are remarkable actors. And, and those roles were difficult, and they are great. And we, so we saw, just to give you a background, we saw, you can't tell from the trailer, but you'll see in the movie, you know, we saw it as a story of, of these three different perspectives, right? And how we look at things based on how we're

• 46:20Speaker 02

  acculturated to, you know, taking life. And, and, and so Ben and I wrote the, the male perspectives, and Nicole wrote the female perspective. And Jodie is just, I just can't say enough about her. I mean, she's just awesome in this movie. And, and, and I, you know, I'm, I'm really proud of it, you know? We'll see, it's still gotta come out, and you know, nobody's, nobody's seen it yet, but like, we've seen it, and I'm like, that's pretty good.

• 46:46Josh Horowitz?

  Now, Ben, Ben was initially, Ben initially was gonna do the Adam role. I know he took a supporting role in this. I guess my question is, is there a meaty heat diner scene between you two guys? Do we get a little of Matt and Ben moment in this film?

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Well, I will say, I think it's, it might be, Ben's a supporting role, but it might be the best thing he's ever done. He's incredible in this movie. He's really great. But, and I, and I won't give too much away.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  Historically speaking, anybody who reads this, this book that it's based on, and reads this history, Pierre D'Alessand, the guy who Ben plays, did not like my, my character at all. And, and in fact, my guy survives 600 years later, as he's remembered as Jealous and irascible and you know, he's, if you imagine like what kind of guy you'd have to be to have that, to be remembered that way six centuries later. So, you know, yeah, he made quite an impression. So we, so that, that we thought about that as we were writing him, definitely.

• 47:51Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing, amazing. I can't wait to have a longer conversation with you, you and Ben and Jody and the whole team on that one. I'm very psyched for it. Congratulations, man, on this one. You and Tom McCarthy. It took a while, but I'm glad you got there. Everybody should check out Stillwater. It's a fantastic piece of work and I'm glad we have you back home here in New York where you belong.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  You bet, man. I'll see you around.

• 48:10Josh Horowitz?

  All right. I'll see you soon. Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Appreciate it.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 48:34Speaker 06

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