Is Ledger Safe? with CTO, Charles Guillemet

Ledger has been the center of attention since the announcement of their new “Recover” feature which has brought into question how secure our Ledger devices actually are. Charles joins us to walk through how exactly this recover feature functions, breaking down how a Ledger actually functions, and possible paths moving forward. ------ 📣 CONSENSYS | DILIGENCE FUZZING https://bankless.cc/diligence-fuzzing-pod ------ 🚀 Airdrop Alpha is waiting for you on Bankless.com https://bankless.cc/Alpha ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 🦊METAMASK LEARN | HELPFUL WEB3 RESOURCE https://bankless.cc/MetaMask 👾STADER LABS | ETHX LIQUID STAKING https://bankless.cc/Stader ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/Toku 🎮IMMUTABLE | GAMING ECOSYSTEM https://bankless.cc/Immutable 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle ------ Topics Covered 0:00 Intro 6:21 Ledger's Recover Service Overview 18:40 Is Ledger Recover Forced or Opt-In? 23:07 Dissecting a Ledger Device 29:41 Can Firmware Reveal Private Keys? 36:54 A Social Contract With Ledger 42:31 Assurance Of No Back Door 51:16 2-Part Firmware Solution? 57:42 Will Ledger Forget About Us? 1:02:46 Closing and Disclaimers ——— Resources: Charles https://twitter.com/P3b7_ Ledger https://twitter.com/ledger ---- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Nation, a special bonus episode for you today, and I think an important one. We have a Ledger on the episode today. The question in our minds, are the private keys safe? We have the Chief Security Officer of Ledger, and we ask him that question along with a number of other questions related to this new recovery product that they just launched. David, who's on the episode today?

• 0:28David Hoffman?

  We have Charles Guimay, who we've actually recently had on the podcast. He taught us how to properly spin up a private key. So Charles does know a thing or two about hardware wallets and how to secure a private key. And so today, I think we actually learned quite a lot about what is actually under the hood of a hardware wallet and what is the fundamental nature of a hardware wallet? I think this is a conversation that the entire industry is working through right now. And I think this episode will be very, very useful to understand exactly the topics of discussion that we are having, both in public and on this episode. Before we get there, though, we're going to talk about our friends and sponsor at Consensys, because they have a brand new product. This one's for all the devs out there. A cool new code auditing tool with a sick new name, Diligence Fuzzing.

• 1:13David Hoffman?

  Ever thought about that, Ryan?

• 1:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Diligence Fuzzing?

• 1:16David Hoffman?

  For smart contracts, Diligence devs, auditors, and enterprises who are engaging in Web3 that need to ensure their smart contracts are secure before proceeding to mainnet, Diligence Fuzzing is an audit-grade security tool that serves for the most automated way to test code and find vulnerabilities without having to host their own infrastructure and writing complex test bases.

• 1:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  So fuzzes is just you just try all this, you try to break it, basically. That's what fuzzing is.

• 1:40David Hoffman?

  Yes, yeah. So the idea is, what is fuzzing? You set some parameters that are incorrect and correct as outputs, and then you throw an infinite number of numbers as inputs, and if they ever comes out as an invalid, you can kind of test it. That was my non-dev-y way of explaining this.

• 1:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  You gotta fuzz it.

• 1:57David Hoffman?

  People who needed to have fuzzing explained to them did not need this product. This one's for the devs. So Diligence Fuzzing is just an extra layer of protection for your smart contracts in addition to and beyond typical code audits. There is a link in the Show notes to get started. If you want to get started doing your diligence fuzzing by robots.

• 2:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, you know what? We're going to do some ledger fuzzing right now because

• 2:19David Hoffman?

  We are ledger fuzzing.

• 2:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. And so we are recording this intro after we've already done the episode with Charles from Ledger. And so I think it was a fantastic episode myself. I'm really interested to hear what the community thinks. This is an education episode. We asked, I think, some difficult questions of Charles at Ledger and he gives his responses.

• 2:40David Hoffman?

  I do feel like we did get down to the bottom of it. Like we got down to the root of the problem.

• 2:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  And I personally feel like I have closure in, I would say, understanding what the security posture of this hardware device that I own called a ledger, understanding what that actually is. I feel like after this episode, I understand it much more. Now it'll be up to Bankless listeners to decide whether that is the security posture they, they want to move forward with and continue using. But yeah, this is a successful episode from that perspective to me.

• 3:12David Hoffman?

  One small disclosure, Ledger is a previous Bankless sponsor. They are not a current Bankless sponsor. And with that, let's go ahead and get right into the episode so we can learn exactly how a hardware wallet works with Charles from Ledger. But first, I want to talk about these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible, especially Kraken, our preferred exchange for 2023. If you do not have any Kraken account, consider signing up. Kraken Pro has easily become the best crypto trading platform in the industry. The place I use to check the charts and the crypto prices, even when I'm not looking to place a trade. On Kraken Pro, you'll have access to advanced charting tools, real-time market data, and lightning-fast trade execution, all inside their spiffy new modular interface. Kraken's new customizable modular layout lets you tailor your trading experience to suit your needs. Pick and choose your favorite modules and place them anywhere you want in your screen.

• 3:56David Hoffman?

  With Kraken Pro, you have that power. Whether you are a seasoned pro or just starting out, join thousands of traders who trust Kraken Pro for their crypto trading needs. Visit pro.kraken.com to get started today.

• 4:08David Hoffman?

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• 4:52David Hoffman?

  onboarded to help the growth of Mantle, like Game7 for Web3 gaming, or EduDAO for the world of D-Side, and Bybit for TVL, liquidity, and on-ramps. Check out Mantle at mantle.xyz and follow them on Twitter at @zeroxmantle. Immutable is at the forefront of Web3 gaming, on a mission to bring digital ownership to every player, offering the world's best games and game development platform. Immutable lets game builders and players focus on great gaming experiences. So, build your next Web3 game on easy mode with Immutable's leading full-stack Web3 gaming platform. Its built-in UX features, like the Immutable Passport, are designed for games to scale to the next billion players coming to Web3. With Immutable, players can sign up with an email, pay with a credit card,

• 5:34David Hoffman?

  and experience a frictionless purchase flow inside of games. So, discover your next favorite game and explore a network of 150 games building on Immutable, including such titles as Gotham Chains, Guilds of Guardians, Illuvium, Ember Sword, and Metalcore. So join Web3's largest ecosystem of games and players. Build, play, and connect at immutable.com. Bankless Nation, I'd love to introduce you to Charles Guimay, who joined Ledger in 2017 as Chief Security Officer after working for 10 years in the world of cryptography and hardware security sector. Charles, welcome back to Bankless.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Hi David, thanks for having me.

• 6:09David Hoffman?

  So just want to dive right into the the subject at hand here. The context, as I understand it, and we're coming into this episode very, very quickly. So I'm going to give you an opportunity to correct this context if I get this wrong. Yesterday Ledger launched its Recover service that lets users back up their private keys so that it could be recovered if lost. This Recover service splits up private keys into three different encrypted shards, sent out from the device to be held separately by three different custodians, also perhaps including Ledger. The strategy here is that we know in crypto that private keys are a huge hurdle for adoption, and many people just don't want to manage their own private keys. And Ledger Recover is meant to be a solution.

• 6:51David Hoffman?

  Let the professionals do the professional thing and manage your private keys on your behalf is an opt-in service. But this opt-in service is not exactly the source of the outrage coming from the crypto world. Ledger users previously thought that it was impossible for private keys to ever leave their existing Ledger devices, as is this is the point of a hardware wallet after all. So now Ledger has released this firmware update that seems to make this possible, albeit in a highly secure, encrypted and sharded fashion. The point remains that something that was once thought impossible is now actually learned to be possible and has possibly been possible this entire time. So Charles, is this an accurate summary from your perspective? And what would you add?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think part of the feedback we got from the community were about this part. But there was also like some misunderstanding around the feature, what it does, why we want to release this and so on. And maybe I can start with that. The intent of this feature is to bring more people to secure self custody. Because when you zoom out, we are in the little bubble like tech savvy people. But when you zoom out, today, most crypto owners are using exchanges to custody their assets or are using software wallets. The reality is that self custody Seems a little bit complex, maybe is a little bit complex for newcomers and people can be afraid of it.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  And for me, there are two major friction points in the self-custody journey. And I often think about my mother. It's too complex, like self-custody is too complex for her. Because I see two major friction points. And the first one is the understanding and management of secret keys. Like these things are quite complex. If you are not used to know what is a secret key and so on, it's complex. I mean, you mean I have to write down these 24 words? What do I do with these words and so on? When you are not tech savvy, this thing can be frightening. And the second thing is like understanding what you sign and consent. There are these exadiscipline addresses, all this stuff.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  When you do smart contract interaction, it can be a little bit complex. So for me, there's two major friction points needs to be addressed by ledger. And we need to find a way for newcomers, for mass, in order to enable mass adoption. And in self-custody, I think there are different shades of gray, different level of trust. At the extreme left, you have like a full trustless model, where you don't trust anyone. You build your own computer, your own operating system, your own wallet and so on. You generate your own secrets, you manage your backup, you build the tools to synchronize the blockchain and sign.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Like, this would be the extreme trustless model, very difficult to achieve. And quite, it needs a lot of skills, time and so on. And at the extreme right, you have like the custodian model, where people are completely trusting a third party to manage their assets. And in between, you have like different shade of gray. And you have software wallets, which are not secured. But a little bit more in self custody. You are in self custody with software wallet. And you have hardware wallets, which are for me the best option so far. But when you use software wallet, there is some level of trust you have to put into the wallet manufacturer.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Whether it is called Card, Resort or Ledger, you have to trust a little bit us. You have to trust a little bit our vendor, because we also depend on different vendors. Mostly for the hardware itself, we are buying the circuit. So, yes, the intent of this feature is to remove these friction hurdles for these people leaving their assets on exchanges and get one step closer to self custody and self sovereignty. So when you use this feature, I agree, you are doing a small trade off where you are saying, "I'm not completely self sovereign. I'm not the only one able to manage my backup."

• 11:13Speaker 02

  But the trade off, I think, is acceptable, because the seed is split into two different shards. So there is no one custodian. These are like part of the backup providers. They don't custody your seed, because cryptographically speaking, they don't have access to your seed. This is a shard, and with a shard, which is encrypted for security reasons, but with a shard, you don't have any information about the secret. You have to have at least two out of the three shards in order to be able to recombine a secret and know the wallet content and use it. So this is the trade off you have.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  And also, yes, yesterday, in this episode, I noticed that some people, not everyone, but some people were a little bit starting to understand how hardware wallet works. And they were a little bit surprised to understand that the firmware or the software running inside the secure element is something that can be changed, is something that have an access to the secret. But from a security standpoint, like nothing really changes, really. Like the seed is still generated within the secure element.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  The cryptographic operations are implemented within the secure element, so that the seed doesn't have to leave the device when you use your crypto. And there is this trusted display allowing you to consent for any operation. And this part is really, really important. And it never changed. And as soon as the operating system will touch a secret on your device, it will ask you for consent. Whether it is like for signing Bitcoin transaction, doing a smart contract interaction, staking on Cosmos chain or any other chain, doing firmware update, downloading an app, or use a ledger recover service. For all these operations, and there are many other operations,

• 13:22Speaker 02

  for all these operations, the operating system needs to have an access to the secret, to the seed, in order to do some cryptographic operation on it. And as soon as this happens, like the user is prompted and the user has to consent for this operation. If the user isn't happy with doing a firmware upgrade, it simply declines and that's it, there was nothing happened. If the user is not happy with the current Bitcoin transaction, it declines and that's it, there was nothing happens. So we really must have this part in mind. Of course, the operating system has an access to the cryptographic materials, to the secret.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  But as soon as an operation involves the secret, the user is prompted and his consent is requested. So this is really the security model. And also, there was something which was...

• 14:23Speaker 02

  A little bit weird for some people, like this, the ability for the firmware to be updated. And this part is really important. This is paramount. Well, security is not something static. Security is a journey. It's impossible to say, okay, I build a hardware, I put some firmware and so on, and that's it. I won't ever be able to change anything. Like, everything is engraved in the marble, and I can't change anything. If you do that, your product won't be secure for a long time. Because, like, as I said, like, security is a journey. You always have to improve security to raise the bar for security. So we are doing quite often upgrades in order to add new features.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Because, as you probably know, there are plenty of new features in the blockchain ecosystem. New blockchain to support means new cryptography to implement. And new features on Ethereum blockchain means like a specific support in the Ethereum app or in the operating system. Like, for instance, we have to support BLS just for the deposit contract for Ethereum in order to interact with the blockchain. And for that, that means we need to do a firmware upgrade and upgrade the operating system in order to provide this feature. Also, we are integrating these days, like, the ENS integration within the device.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  That means you will be able to send directly Ethereum to vitalik.is if you want to send them, to send him some Ethereum. And on the device, you will have this resolution. And this requires some, like, operating system upgrade. And your operating system needs to access to the security. So, yeah, this was a little bit long, but I want to give more color to all of this. And frankly, I learned two things yesterday. The first thing is...

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Like the community cares a lot about Ledger. Like when you have this kind of reaction, that means like things are important. Ledger is important for the ecosystem. And frankly, this is touching for me, for us at Ledger. And the second thing is like, we could have done a better job at explaining how all of this worked, because that was not completely clear for everyone.

• 16:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I would definitely echo both of those points, that people care so much about Ledger, because this is sort of a, we all have one. We've been Ledger users forever on the Bankless journey. I mean, this is the non-custodial hardware wallet that we recommend, that the community has largely adopted. So we all very much care. And yeah, I would echo that, man, the comms around this was real rough. And of course, like Twitter can get into all sorts of, they can mob attack, they can pitchfork. And I do think this will be a learning lesson for Ledger moving forward in how to explain this.

• 17:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  But you've uncovered so many, you've talked about so many things, Charles. I feel like we need to kind of double back and get to sort of the first section of this. And I do want in a little bit, for David and myself to pull up a visual of kind of like the hardware itself, so that people don't leave this podcast episode without understanding the inside of how their Ledger device might be working. But before we get there, the main concern on people's minds, you talked about two different kind of user personas, I think Ledger is maybe appealing to. One is sort of the crypto OG, the non-custodial maximalist side.

• 18:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  And you know, there are very few that buy a brand new hardware laptop from Best Buy or something and like set it up from scratch, right? But there are a lot of people who depend on Ledger to be sort of their non-custodial crypto wallet, where the private keys don't leave that particular device. And that's a lot of people on the Bankless journey right now. And then there is a larger set of users that finds it very difficult. My, my parents would be one of these, for instance, they would find it very difficult to actually set up a, you know, a hardware wallet in Ledger and store those seed, that seed phrase in a

• 18:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  safe location. And what, what Ledger is saying, hey, we want to appeal to that audience too. And we want to have a, a product for them. And so there's this bifurcation, right? And what I think some of the, the OG users are worried about is, is that Ledger has forgotten about them somehow. And so one core question I have for you, and I want to make sure that people are clear on this, this recover service that we talked about, that is, that is more for people who want to veer on the spectrum more towards a little bit more custody rather than, than self custody. Is this opt in or is this forced? Is this forced on everyone with a Ledger device with a firmware update? Or can they say no? Can they, do they have to?

• 19:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  And if they can say no, how do they say no? Do they just not download the firmware? Is there a box you can check? Is, is, are, is there a forked version of the software? Let's make sure we understand this first.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you don't like the service, you, you don't even have to, to say no. It's the, it's the opposite. If you want the service, you, you have to subscribe. You have to create an account. You have to go through the identification, identity verification process, because this service works with identity verification. And if you don't do that, like nothing happens. Like you don't subscribe to the service and nothing happened to your seed. Like it stays on your device completely secure and that's it. So of course it's optional, completely optional. If you don't like this ID, like don't do anything. You can upgrade your firmware, you can upgrade your Ledger Live, nothing will happen.

• 20:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  So if I upgrade my firmware, this doesn't introduce some sort of difference? This doesn't introduce some sort of backdoor? This doesn't introduce some sort of way for Ledger through a software update to, you know?

• 20:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Extract out my private keys. Is that is what is different about this firmware upgrade versus previous firmware upgrade? So anyone who's had a Ledger for any number of years has obviously upgraded their firmware. Why? For security updates, because they want additional support, more features, more competency. Right? It's like no one has the original version of the well, very few have the original version of the Ledger software. But what people are worried about is this new firmware update might degrade the the security posture that Ledger has had on the firmware device so far. Can you can you talk about that?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  No. So in short, no, it doesn't degrade the security posture of Ledger, of anything in this area. As I as I mentioned, like it adds a new functionality that you can choose to use or not use. But the operating system like before this upgrade, the operating system has a full access to your secret. And as soon as you want to use the secret, you have to consent. After this upgrade, this is the this is the same thing. The operating system has still a full access to your seed. And as soon as like something touches your secret, you have to consent.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  There was just a new feature, a new possibility for like recover to to be activated and to be used. And if you want to use it, like you will have to consent on the device. Like, do you want to initially initialize Ledger recover backup phase? And and then you will have to to follow the the plan on the device and and the full process will happen. So this this is this is this, there is this piece of of code inside the operating system on top of what existing before, what was existing before. But the same way we are adding new application and new feature, you don't have to use them. Like it's it's there.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  If you don't like Bitcoin, you just don't install the Bitcoin application. You don't you don't sign transaction and that's it. In in this case, if you don't like this service, you simply don't have to use it. It's the same.

• 23:06David Hoffman?

  And so I think at this point in this conversation, we need to unpack the guts of what makes a ledger a ledger. And so I think this visual that I believe Haseeb made from scratch is pretty useful here. And so I think listeners should just view a ledger as two boxes, one box inside of a bigger box. The bigger box is your ledger, the actual device. And inside of that ledger is this secure element, and that is the thing that houses the private key. And so the outside box is like the computer, the device, the chip that manages the secure element. And then the secure element has the private key, and that is like the Fort Knox of your ledger. And I think why the the answer to the question, why is everyone so upset right now?

• 23:49David Hoffman?

  Is that people previously thought that the secure element, it's impossible for private keys to leave the secure element. That is the purpose of the secure element. And that is the design that people talk about, the hardware walls. I say like, yeah, you get a hardware wallet because humans are messy. And hardware walls have one job, which is to not allow your private keys to leave the hardware wallet. And Charles, what you're saying is that that is still true. Because you can sign a signature, you can approve a message on your ledger that requires human input to ever allow for private keys to leave the for a signature to be signed. But what's different here in this new firmware update is that people are now understanding that that secure element

• 24:34David Hoffman?

  also has software in it. And firmware can update the software of the of the secure element. And with this new firmware update, the software inside of the secure element is able to be updated in a way that can allow for the seed, the private keys to be escaped to escape from the hardware wallet. If you physically approve the hardware wall, if it's in your hands and you hit the little checkbox that says approve. But it can now do that. And this product that Ledger is making is the as soon as you approve that, it charges it into three different shards. It encrypts each one twice, sends it to different consultants of the world. Probably the most secure way to secure a seed phrase.

• 25:15David Hoffman?

  But people are now understanding that the secure element is actually software, not hardware. And this has caused people's concern. Is this a good summary?

• 25:27Speaker 02

  I think it's a good summary of the misunderstanding. What you need to understand, the Secure Element is a circuit. It's a circuit with low-capacity processing, but this part is true. With some crypto-accelerator, that means that there are piece of hardware that can accelerate the cryptographic operation. But when I refer to ledger operating system, like this part is software, it's firmware, and this part is implemented inside the Secure Element. It's possible for the keys to not leave the Secure Element, even when you are doing a signature, because the operating system inside the Secure Element has access to the keys and can be upgraded.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Like, I mean, when we added the support for BLS on for EC home, for instance, that means that we have to add a new feature in the operating system. So we are writing the code for BLS support, and then we are upgrading our operating system so that now it supports BLS. And this operating system runs inside the Secure Element. When you think Secure Element, like Secure Element is a small computer. Like, there is a small MCU, there is a dedicated RAM, there is a dedicated flash, there is a crypto-accelerator, there are different peripherals in order to communicate with the rest of the world. This is what a Secure Element is.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  And this Secure Element needs to run some code. Like, this is not like something magic. And this code is the one we wrote and for years now. This is an operating system. So we load our own operating system. There is an attestation mechanism. There are some integrity checks in order to make sure that this is our code that runs inside and not another. There was, yeah, there was, the attestation allows to do this firmware upgrade over the air securely, because when you do a firmware upgrade, we want to make sure that the firmware comes from us. And then there is all the, like, secure channel, attestation, at ledger, we have different Checks and controls, so that when you, when we do an operating system upgrade,

• 27:41Speaker 02

  uh, when this uh upgrade needs to be signed, so we have a multi-signature uh process within Ledger, so that to make sure that this new operating system version uh does not introduce uh like uh backdoors or or bugs and so on. But this operating system runs inside the secure element. And this is the same with um your Bitcoin application or Ethereum application. When you load your Ethereum application, it's loaded inside the secure element and it runs on top of the operating system. Like, if if you think like like a computer, like uh the Nano is, like the secure element is your computer.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Uh, and the inside the the secure end, there is a flash, which which would be your hard drive. Uh, there is um, there is RAM uh exactly as in your computer. There is an operating system like Linux, but it's really small, really smaller and and very few features. It's mostly cryptographic and security oriented. And you can run apps, like um any app on on Linux. And and there the apps are Bitcoin, Ethereum and others. This is the app that are running inside. So it's like, I it's a metaphor, it's a comparison, but I I think it's quite, it's quite a fair one. If, because what I realized that was some, some people was thinking that

• 29:04Speaker 02

  there was some magic, like the the the seed is inside the secure element and we can add new features without uh this feature touching the the secret. No, it it can't, it it can't work like that, like that. Uh, the cryptography, um signature, uh encryption, um uh everything related to uh the use of your assets needs to access to your seed. And as soon as we add new features, we upgrade this code so that uh it can do, it can, it can do new things, but again with your consent, always. This is, this, this thing never changed.

• 29:39David Hoffman?

  Sir, and so I would imagine from the Ledger perspective, understanding how a Ledger works, this update is released, and then from your, from the Ledger perspective, everyone is up in arms, like, "Oh, you can update the secure enclave?" And you guys are like, "Yeah, we've been doing that this entire time. That's what firmware updates are." What did you guys think was going on? But then, from our perspective, it's specifically the nature of this update that has opened up some doors as to like, what could happen in the future? And so, like, there's two doors that have opened, which is, okay, now Ledger has made a product that opens up access to private keys on an opt-in basis, but what is down that road? Like, how easy does that get?

• 30:24David Hoffman?

  Like, there's now an API that goes to my private keys that is an opt-in basis, but it raises concerns about like, okay, well, what if a nation-state comes and starts to twist Ledger's arm? And what happens if in one, or two, or five years, the doors to accessing my private keys are much larger than they are now? And then also, now there's an additional tac vector, which technically has always existed, but now we are more aware of it, is there's just one rogue firmware update away from a rogue firmware update that would make accessing private keys trivial. And so now we are all understanding that if Ledger is compromised, or some firmware

• 31:05David Hoffman?

  update is compromised, that that could be a black swan event, if you will, because everyone's Ledger is compromised if we all download this new rogue firmware. So that's a new security vector, which I'm guessing, again, has always been there, but now we're aware of it. Do you have any thoughts or reflections on these concerns?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're completely true, and it's true for every wallet, whether they are software or hardware. When they are hardware, it's a little bit more complex, because you have to upgrade the firmware, and then you need some collaboration between Ledger Live or the software interfacing with the hardware. But yeah, you're totally true. And this is the level of trust that I was mentioning before. When you use Ledger, there was some level of trust that you need to put into Ledger so that we don't do a very nasty thing. And if you don't want to have any trust, as I said, it's really, really complex. There was, it's always a trade-off between like trust, security and self-sovereignty.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  And it's, yeah, it's impossible to be completely trustless. You would need, you would need to be, to build your own computer. Because if you want to be trustless, you can, you can trust your own computer. And then you would need to build the software running on top of it. But when we're building software, you need a compiler. So how do you trust the compiler? You're going to, you would need to build the entire stack that the overall electronic and software industry have been built during 50 years. So what I want to say, it's impossible for one, one human to be completely trustless in this process. And then the, it's a matter of trade-off.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Like where do you put the cursor of I trust this guy for managing and providing me the right tools? And I'm completely self-sovereign. And these cursor are plenty of different shades of gray. And as you, as you mentioned, I think like some people realize that they were, they were, they were trusting ledger a little bit more than they thought. And I think this is, this is what happened yesterday.

• 33:15David Hoffman?

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• 33:59David Hoffman?

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• 34:42David Hoffman?

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• 35:23David Hoffman?

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• 36:06David Hoffman?

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• 36:49David Hoffman?

  secure, fast, cheap and friction free. I'm reminded of a metaphor that was used when, I actually remember this pretty clearly, Vitalik was on the Eric Weinstein's podcast and they were talking about the 2016 Ethereum DAO hack. And the social contract of Ethereum at the time was completely autonomous, robots only, don't trust the humans. And then the DAO hack happened and then it was like this, it was a robot and you ripped the mask off the robot and there's a human there. And I think this is the same thing that's currently happening with Ledger is everyone thought it's like, oh, it's completely hardware, you don't have to trust humans, the hardware's got you. That's the whole point of the, of a hardware wallet. And now with this understanding about like what a firmware update means and how deep a firmware update goes, people are now realizing that,

• 37:32David Hoffman?

  oh, it's a human there. It's Ledger, which is a company of people that is incorporated in France that has founders and leadership. And so now I think the crypto world is now coming to terms with that and is now going to ask Ledger, the company, to make a very strong social contract to the crypto industry, to the crypto believers, the crypto hardliners, if you will, which are causing this uproar about how are you, with now that this new attack vector is opened up, this can of the genie's out of the bottle, how are you guys going to sign a social contract on our behalf? And is that even possible? I think that is kind of the question that everyone's learning how to ask right now, including myself.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yes, it's a good one. I think like the social contract is what I said before. As soon as like the software, the firmware is touching your secret. Like it's up to your consent. There is always you need to authenticate yourself. Always the everything starts with the PIN. And after the PIN, like as soon as something touch your secret to do like sensitive operation. I'm not saying generating a public key. You you have to launch the to launch the Ethereum app first, but yeah. But for everything related to using private keys and so on, you are always prompted and you you need to consent for that. And this contract never changed.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  And at some point, you you need to trust us for not putting back doors. And for this, there was there was no real choice. And it's always the case for every single wallet vendors, whether it is it is hardware or even software.

• 39:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, it's interesting. So I OK, so I I'm hearing this loud and clear. There's really like two levels of consent on the device before, you know, allowing this. And that's just on the device, allowing this kind of recovery service. One is you update the firmware, right? So there there could be a swath of people listening to this saying, I, you know, am not going to update the firmware. And that if so, that's your choice. You you bought the hardware device. You don't have to update the firmware if you don't want to.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  But it's a bad idea.

• 39:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's a bad idea. Well, let me get back to that. But it's like that. That is the first thing you have to do. A second thing is there's actual physical approval from Ledger. If you want, if any time it's going to act, touch your secret. And so opt you like get you into the recovery service. There's something you have to actually click approve on your Ledger device. There's kind of two layers here. Now, getting back to it's a bad idea, right? To not update your firmware. This is kind of the the trade off spectrum, I think people had like how to bankless sister, I guess, and to myself. I'm asking me this question. How certain am I that the existing firmware version on my Ledger device doesn't have a security flaw in it?

• 40:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, I don't know. I mean, this is part of what a company like Ledger, I imagine, provides is when you identify any sort of security. flaw or some sort of issue, you kind of patch that. You you fix the bug and you require or you ask for a firmware update from all of your users. Right? So that's kind of an unknown for me in addition to like the whole world of all of the features that I might want in the future for my ledger device. So that's kind of a choice you have to make is like, how secure is your existing, the existing version of your firmware? You really don't know. And what if a flaw is uncovered? Who do you kind of trust to to

• 41:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  patch that up? So that is kind of the trade out. But you wanted to say something here, Charles?

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, what I wanted to say is it's a bad idea to not update your firmware, because in firmware update, there are there are always security improvements. Sometimes it's even a vulnerability fixed. There was, and we are completely transparent about that. You can go on dungeon. ledger.com/lsb for ledger security built in. And every every time we uncover a new vulnerability, whether it is our teams or external teams, we are first fixing them. And then we are we are publishing the ledger security built in. And to be completely transparent, like a few days, weeks ago, we have we have found something quite interesting on

• 41:52Speaker 02

  the implementation of miniscript. We are we are among the only one supporting well miniscript. And there was a team integrating like this miniscript implementation, and they found something something quite interesting, a vulnerability. So we worked with them, we fixed the vulnerability. And if your Bitcoin app is up to date, you this vulnerability is fixed. If you're not, now the attacker knows the vulnerability, because now it's public, and you are vulnerable. So that's why it's really important to to always update your firmware and the application.

• 42:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is such a hard situation for, I think, users who want to be completely bankless and self-sovereign to be in. Because we have to sort of make a choice. We have to, and I guess maybe the question goes to like, David is pointing to sort of the social contract that Ledger can make to say, "We believe in self-custody." You know, we can, we believe in, you know, kind of transparency. "We are going to do our best to kind of protect your device at all times and keep your private keys in the secure enclave and only ask your permission if, you know, something changes." But I'm wondering if we can even get stronger.

• 43:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because crypto is very much an industry of like, "Don't trust, but verify," right? And so like, is there a way that crypto, a listener, can have assurances that Ledger hasn't introduced some sort of backdoor? Like, can we open source this? Is that not a avenue? Is there, is there some way to guarantee this? I mean, I don't even want to rely on like, third-party auditors here, but you see what I'm saying? It's just like, how can we be sure that a future Ledger firmware update does not introduce some sort of a backdoor, right? Because, you know, Ledger's now a large company. I'm, I'm sure there are authorities, I'm sure there are nation-states

• 43:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  who, somewhere on the planet, would like to introduce some sort of backdoor into a future firmware update. And yeah, how can we verify that this indeed hasn't happened? Do we just have to basically trust at the social contract layer that you haven't done that?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  So first, I'm gonna start with the social contract. And again, we are...

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Poor self custody, like this is, this is the purpose of Ledger. We would like that everyone to be completely self-aware and completely in self-custody. And as I mentioned, like in this self-custody journey, there are different shades of gray. And, and there are, the reality is that today we are very few in self-custody. Okay, I'm, it's important for me, it's important for you. But at the end, this, what's, what is this part of the crypto ecosystem? Most of people are using Robinhood to buy Bitcoin or are leaving their Bitcoin on an exchange. This is the situation, the situation right now. So how can we make sure that these people come a little bit closer to self-custody? And I think this kind of feature goes in that direction.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  I would love that everyone understands very well that self-custody is the purpose of blockchain revolution. This is something I say like every time I, I, I can speak. But the reality is that's not the case right now. Most people are using Bitcoin as, as, as they were speculating on stocks. This is not the purpose of like crypto, Ethereum or Bitcoin. The, the, the purpose is self-custody. You have to own your own value, to be permissionless, to be as trustless as possible. I, I, I am completely aware of this. Ledger is aware of this, this is the ethos of the company. Now, how can we bring these people into self-custody? And I think this feature is part of this, like so.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  The social contract is we are continuing our road to empower people, to give them the right tools, to be in self-custody, to really own their value. This is what we do, uh, this does not change. And about your comment about, um, uh, a state forcing us to put backdoors and so on. Yeah, I, what, what can I answer to that? This, this is always true for, for everyone, like, yeah. Okay, that was, that was true yesterday, this, this will be true tomorrow. Uh, and it's difficult to prove the absence, the absence of, of any backdoor. Um, about open sourcing our operating system, this is, this is like a very, um,

• 46:24Speaker 02

  a long story, like we are talking about that at Ledger, we are talking about that everywhere we can. A lot of people are asking us to, to open source our, our operating system. I would love to.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  The problem is, we are using Secure Element. Secure Element is like the best device you can imagine to implement cryptography, to store secrets, and so on. This is why we are using Secure Element. But when you are using Secure Element, you sign an NGA with the Secure Element providers, and the Secure Element provider simply prevents you to give any information about how their Secure Element is working. Because there is their IP, because there are plenty of proprietary security countermeasures, and they don't want those things to be public.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  So we simply can't publish our operating system source code because of this. And I think something which is really interesting in open source is the capacity for everyone to audit the code. But it does not guarantee that people will audit the code. And this is a big blind spot in the ecosystem. A lot of code are open source, but no one edits them, and no one pays for audit, and it does not happen. Okay, our source code is not open source, at least the operating system. The applications are. You can audit them if you want,

• 48:00Speaker 02

  but the operating system is not because of what I just said. Nonetheless, we are internally auditing, and we have one of the best teams in the world in terms of security, the Dungeon. They are uncovering security flows in many different implementations in hours also sometimes, and then we are improving things. We are also using third-party to audit our code. We are also getting through security certification, like so that you are the third-party that goes through a complete audit of your product, code, and so on, to make sure it's not possible to go through the...

• 48:42Speaker 02

  To bypass a security feature. And this is what we do. But for hardware, especially for hardware, because open source is especially interesting when it comes to software. Like you have, you use a specific version of a software. And then this software is open source. What you will do is clone the GitHub repository. You will compile it and then you can compare this to the binary that is distributed. You can even run the version that you compiled yourself. Not a lot of people are doing this, but this is something you can. But with hardware and with firmware, it's very difficult to have guarantees

• 49:24Speaker 02

  that the software which is running inside the hardware wallet is the same that is being distributed by the vendor. So even if we were open source, completely open source, you would have like very large difficulty to make sure that the operating system running in the device is the same that you downloaded. And it's the same problem with Gold Card, the same problem with Trezor. You don't have guarantee. By the way, Trezor recently, they got some people distributing like fake Trezor device, like with a backdoor inside. And as there is no integrity mechanism,

• 50:07Speaker 02

  there is no way for people to distinguish a real Trezor from a fake one. Because everything is the same and you have no way to be sure that the version which is inside the Trezor is a right one or a fake one. This is a problem you have with hardware wallet, with hardware in general.

• 50:28David Hoffman?

  Charles, you said we need innovations like Ledger recover to be able to onboard like the Robin Hoods of the world, the very, very banked people of the world. Stuff like this can make them more bankless. And that's one half of me is like, absolutely. Let's get the rest of the world into the world of sovereign private keys. And then the other half of me is like. Don't compromise on my Fort Knox in my hardware wallet just because some Robin Hood bros want to come into crypto. And so like, there's like two, there's like two sides that I can see here. There's like, yeah, we need more people to come into crypto. Let's make it easier for them, but also don't compromise on like how strong I can be self-sovereign.

• 51:12David Hoffman?

  And so the, one topic of conversation that's been floating around in my circles about this has been like, well, can't there just be two firmwares? One is like the Robin Hood, uh, Robin Hood bro people that want to come in and, and want to be, get their first hardware wallet in a way that feels good. And then can there be a second firmware, which is like the Fort Knox for the crypto extremists who want the maximum level of security? And so I'll, I'll raise that, but also I think, I think the point that we're learning here is that even if you do make the Fort Knox version, if you do like split the, uh, split the formers into two paths, like the hardcore and the easy modes, the, it's actually kind

• 51:53David Hoffman?

  of, uh, superfluous as in like, it's the same risk vectors either way. And that's perhaps like, kind of the frustration of Ledger is like, sure, you can have your Fort Knox version of the firmware, but like, you actually aren't reducing any of the, the

• 52:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's because anytime you, you do a firmware update, it just kind of you reset the clock.

• 52:11David Hoffman?

  It's the same thing. Yeah. Uh, and so like, this is that kind of like, I see the rock and the hard place that Ledger is in. Um, but I'll, I'll float the idea of like a second firmware, a Fort Knox firmware that will just make people feel good. And maybe that's a, maybe that's something.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  It's, it's an idea, but again, I don't, I don't think it resolve your, your concern. In all case, you will have to trust Ledger a little bit.

• 52:35David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Being completely trustless, as I mentioned, is something really difficult. You would have to, to build the entire stack from scratch.

• 52:43David Hoffman?

  And, and this is, this has got to be true for, for our all hardware wallets, right? Just our hardware wallets as a vertical.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Hardware or software or even software wallets.

• 52:53David Hoffman?

  Right. Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  It's the same. There was, there was, there was a part of, of trust inside, of course.

• 52:59David Hoffman?

  So I think this is kind of just a learning moment for the entire industry as to how, how a hardware wallet works.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  And frankly, I'm a bit disappointed because I I thought I did a hard work explaining how all of this works and so on, but if it was not clear for everyone, now it's a little bit better.

• 53:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sometimes it takes these events, Charles, so that the information, education can really propagate. So I'm curious, as you zoom out on this whole thing, what is the learning lesson for Ledger about this event or this discussion of the last couple of days? And then what do you think is the takeaway for the rest of crypto?

• 53:43Speaker 02

  So one of the first takeaway is like in terms of communication, things could have been really better. The thing is, we planned to announce it officially, explaining everything and so on. We had a solid communication plan for a little bit earlier, for a little bit later. The thing is, when we wanted to be ready when we launch, to be able for users to upgrade their firmware, so we needed to distribute the firmware beforehand. And as we are transparent in the release note, we explained that this new firmware contains

• 54:26Speaker 02

  the capability to activate the JAR recover. And the thing is, instead of bringing to the crypto ecosystem this new idea, how it works, and if you don't like it, you don't have to use it, this is the community that discovered the functionality and started to speculate. Oh, they are extracting my seed and so on, like a lot of first started. And we, instead of for us to explain the feature, the ID, the intent, the fact that it does not change anything in terms of security model and the user contract with Ledger, instead of being in that situation.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  We spent like 24 hours explaining that no, we are not installing any kind of backdoor. And by the way, you didn't completely understand how hardware wallet works. So yeah, this is, so in terms of communication, like the point taken, of course, things could have been better. The second takeaway for me is, as I mentioned, that the crypto community, the ecosystem cares a lot about Ledger. Frankly, when you see this kind of passion, this kind of, even if it's not positive passion, this means, this means a lot for me. This is touching and, and yeah, the, the message has been received.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  The third takeaway is, as I mentioned, like we, we could have explained better what the security model was, the, how hardware works and so on. I feel we, we spent a lot of time like explaining these things again and again. Probably that was not enough, of course. And, and sometimes, I'm in the company for more than, than five years. And sometimes I, I feel I explained this like 10 times, but what, what I explained in 2017, I explained it to like 1% of the people who are in the community right now. So this is, this is something.

• 56:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  And people forget, Charles, you know?

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and people forget, yeah, of course.

• 56:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm not always thinking about how the inside of my Ledger works, right?

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true, that's true. So yeah, so this is a never ending story. We, we need to continue doing this effort, explaining well, what's the, what's the trade off when you use Ledger? Because it's always a matter of trade off. There was no like perfectly trustless, secure, and, and self-surprising solution. This thing does not happen, does not exist. It's, it's always a matter of, of trade off. I think the trade off that Ledger is providing has a lot of value. As a customer, as a user, I love, I love the value provided, provided by Ledger. And, and then I would like that there's hobbyhood people to get a little bit of this, of this value.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  And this, this is the intent of the, of the Ledger we cover. And yeah, again, also, we are in the Twitter ecosystem and Twitter is not really the real world. Let's keep this in mind, but this is not the real world.

• 57:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I certainly have that the top of mind. Well, I think we've all learned a lot of the last couple of days and certainly I hope Bankless listeners have in this episode. But I want to ask this kind of final question and this, we've been talking about a new cohort of users that Ledger wants to get, kind of the, you know, the Robin Hood crowd, the people who are not comfortable with the hardware wallet and their seed phrase, as is. And I think some of the OGs, part of this, you know, this passion you've seen comes from an emotional place. And what they're saying, Charles, is you guys aren't going to forget about us, are you?

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Like, oh, no, no, no, we won't. I'm part of this, guys. I'm, our voice is at Ledger.

• 58:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  So, so, so tell me about that, because I think that's where this is coming from. There are a lot of people who started their Bankless journey with a hardware wallet and use Ledger. And the reason they did that is for maximum self sovereignty. And they want to feel like the company whose product they own supports them on that journey and hasn't changed. And Ledger has grown a lot over the last few years. Certainly a new round of funding as well. The team size has grown. And I think some of the OGs are basically saying, hey, Ledger, you're not going to forget why you're here. You're not going to

• 58:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  forget about this mission. And the reason I know that is because they ask Bankless the exact same questions, right? Bankless has also grown and they are continually asking us, hey, do you guys still remember why you're here? Like the mission, like the reason we're doing this thing? And I think they are now through this episode, in an impassioned way, in a pitchfork way, in a Twitter mob attack type way, but also in a good way. They're asking Ledger, why are you still here? Do you know? Do you know the mission? You haven't forgotten about us, have you? So what would you say to that?

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I mentioned this point already, but I'm very happy to say it again. The mission of Ledger is to provide the users with tools to be empowered, to be in self custody, in self sovereignty. Because this is the purpose of the blockchain revolution. The purpose is not about speculating with Bitcoin as you would speculate with stocks. Frankly, this thing is not interesting from my standpoint. And by the way, this is definitely not the mission of Ledger. The mission is to provide our users with tools to own their value, to use it securely, and to be completely self sovereign.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  And the thing is that in this mission, if you only talk to hardcore users that understand this very well, you are completely blind to a big world who would like to enter this world. And this is also what we are doing. We are not forgetting the ethos. Like, this does not change. We are just trying to make sure that everyone, the mass adoption, will understand this ethos. We want to make sure they understand and we're moving a little bit the friction point for them to enter into self custody and self sovereignty.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  Because again, this is really the purpose of Bitcoin, of Ethereum, of blockchain in general. And personally speaking, this is also what motivates me to be at Ledger. I truly believe in this mission. And I don't feel there is another player in the crypto ecosystem which is such committed to self custody and self sovereignty. So this does not change. But we also have to keep in mind that the OG of 2014 or 2017 are only a small portion of the ocean of crypto users today. And we have to talk to everyone. We don't forget the OG, but we have to talk to everyone. And by the way, frankly,

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  sometimes I'm a little bit disappointed by the OG community. We are investing a lot on supporting plenty of Bitcoin features, and same with Ethereum. And at the end, when we have a look to the stats... Not much people are using them. So there was this thing which is a little bit disappointing for me. And like, we are investing a lot to make sure that this OG population has the right tools and so on. And at the end, they don't use them so much. So, but we won't stop. I'm just saying this.

• 1:02:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's a good point to end it with. And the reason I asked again is because I just wanted to hear it one more time from your mouth, Charles. Thank you so much for engaging the community in this way in podcast form. I think discussions are much easier than Twitter battles back and forth. And we appreciate you taking the time to come on and explain this today.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for giving me the opportunity. That was a really good discussion, open discussion. And yeah, happy to have participated.

• 1:02:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Awesome. Bankless Nation, risks and disclaimers. Of course, none of this has been financial advice. You know, it wasn't because you're listening to Bankless. I gotta let you know again, a reminder in case you needed reminding Bitcoin, ETH, these assets are risky. So is DeFi. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.