S3 Ep249: Dee Dee Blanchard: The Interrogations of Gypsy and Nicholas (Part 6)

A small, quiet town in Missouri. A devoted mother caring for her chronically ill daughter. A story of love, sacrifice, and survival. Or so it seemed. But behind closed doors, beneath the layers of sympathy and kindness, there was a dark secret waiting to be uncovered. For nearly two decades Dee Dee Blanchard told the world that her daughter, Gypsy Rose, was dying. Leukemia, muscular dystrophy, seizures, vision and hearing issues, the list of illnesses and medical concerns was endless. Gypsy, a seemingly happy little girl with a huge smile, was bound to a wheelchair, fed through a tube, and showered with the attention and support of everyone around her, but no one really knew the horrifying truth. It seemed that Gypsy was perfectly healthy. She could walk. She didn't need a wheelchair to get around, and it appeared that she was being kept a prisoner in her own body, in her own home, by her own mother. The story goes that years of abuse, manipulation, and lies built up until they all came crashing down in the most unthinkable way: Murder. On the night of June 14, 2015, Dee Dee Blanchard was found stabbed to death in her home, and the prime suspect? Dee-Dee's innocent, smiling, happy, and allegedly disabled daughter, along with the man that Gypsy had been having a very adult relationship with. But nothing about this case is as it appears to be. This is the story of Gypsy Rose and Dee Dee Blanchard. Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!2. SundaysForDogs.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get 40% off your first order!3. LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get 20% off ANYTHING you order!4. ZipRecruiter.com/CrimeWeekly - Try Zip Recruiter for FREE!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derek Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Today, we are jumping into part six of the Gypsy Rose and DeeDee Blanchard case. And it's going to be a long episode, so we are going to jump right in. Today, we are listening to and discussing the police interviews of Gypsy Rose Blanchard and Nicholas Gotajon, and we're gonna compare and contrast. And there's gonna be a lot to discuss, because I had to watch all of these interviews multiple times, and they're each, I think, two and a half hours each. So I had to figure out what was the most important and cut it down. And yeah, it was all good. I mean, these were, these were police interrogations where from start, it was action-packed from start to finish. So it was very hard to narrow down which clips to put in here to discuss.

• 1:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I think, I think I did it, and I think this is going to be Derek's first time seeing a lot of this footage, so I'm excited, because especially after we discussed the messages between Gypsy and Nick last week, I think this is gonna really add to that and really round out what Gypsy's motive possibly was here. So, I mean, we're gonna get right into it. We don't have a lot, we don't have a lot to talk about beforehand. I just want to say that even looking at the circumstances of Gypsy's police interview versus Nick's police interview, you can already see a difference in the way that they were treated, in the way they were perceived, even though, at that time, the

• 1:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  police had no way of knowing who did what, who actually held the knife that killed DeeDee Blanchard. They didn't know what had happened. They hadn't talked to them yet. Nicholas was put in an interrogation room. He was sat at a table. He was cuffed. Gypsy's in a room with an ice couch. She's given a stuffed animal to hold and play with, even though she's a 23-year-old grown-ass woman. They talk to her like she's a little girl. They give her a blanket when she's cold. They're consistent. Checking in on her to make sure she's okay, see if she's hungry, see if she has to use the bathroom. Um, it's a, it's a very drastic difference in how these two people were treated uh during their police interviews. And at this point, both Gypsy and Nick are being held at the Waukesha County Sheriff's

• 2:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Department, but they were going to be questioned by two Green County, Missouri detectives, Stan Hancock and Angela Boholi. So as Gypsy's waiting in her interrogation room, she's got to wait because Stan and Angela haven't gotten there yet from Missouri, right? So she's waiting, she's chatting with a young police officer who'd been assigned to stand outside of the open door of the room that she was being kept in. And keep in mind, at this time, Gypsy had no idea that she was suspected of anything, right? The police tracked the Facebook post to Nick go to John's house. They bust in, they arrest them, they take them away, and that's where we end up. And she doesn't really know exactly what's going on, but I think she is thinking to

• 3:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  herself, they're never going to think I did anything. They're never going to think that I could possibly be guilty of something like this. And she's got to sort of pretend that she doesn't even know her mother is dead. And so that's the way that she's um, she's acting, she's playing dumb. She has no idea what happened to her mother. And even though this young police officer standing outside of her door is not going to be questioning her in regards to the case, he's just watching her until the Green County Sheriff's Office people get there. Gypsy starts to build her narrative with him. She starts to tell him the story that she and Nick had agreed upon, right? Because they, they had agreed on a lie that they were going to tell if they got caught.

• 3:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the lie was going to be that the Dee Dee had kicked Gypsy out. Gypsy's wandering the streets alone. And so Nick takes a bus to Springfield so that he can bring Gypsy home to live with himself and his parents in Wisconsin because she's been removed from the house by Dee Dee. She has no place to stay. That's the, the narrative that they had agreed on, and that is the way she starts with this police officer. Are you ready to dive in?

• 4:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I am, just to put a disclaimer on it, because to answer your question, or at least the assumption you're under, I have not seen any of this footage other than what we've already shown throughout.

• 4:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which was very brief, yeah.

• 4:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Very brief. So I, I'm starting to feel a certain way. I'm still coming in here. Giving everyone a fair shake. I'll call it, I'll call balls and strikes. I will say, some of you may not love when we have B-roll. I know because you voice it in the comments, but I think it's really necessary here. Stephanie can tell you how she feels about these people. And listen, I don't think I'm going out on a limb here. Stephanie is not Team Gypsy.

• 4:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nope.

• 4:51Derrick Levasseur?

  And so the argument could be made that she's presenting this interrogation to you that she's biased. Right? And so to separate her from that and to separate me from that, why not just hear it directly from the horse's mouth? So you, this is why I would suggest, we love when you guys listen on audio, but even if you listen on audio, go over and watch the interrogation footage from this episode, because it's not only about what they say, it's how they say it. And it's also the body language of when they're saying it. So you don't have to be a body language expert to just pick up on basic behavior as they're being interviewed. And so if you go watch the footage for yourself, you can come to your own conclusion. So it is going to be a lot of B-roll tonight. It's absolutely necessary.

• 5:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I would strongly recommend if you can, go watch the video version. So you can kind of see what we're saying. If I bring up certain things about their positioning, how they're saying it, the position of their eye. We can't really see their eyes, but the way their heads are facing, how their legs are crossed or not crossed. All that can be important, especially when we're developing a baseline on what's normal for them and what may be out of the ordinary for them. As the interview starts to include questions that couldn't implicate them in a crime.

• 6:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I guarantee you, I guarantee you that the majority of people listening to this have not seen these interrogation videos. I guarantee you.

• 6:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Even people who are on Team Gypsy, you know, they, they, they might, may not. So this is going to be important.

• 6:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't see how you could be on Team Gypsy and see these interrogation videos.

• 6:17Derrick Levasseur?

  There's that bias.

• 6:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's all I'm gonna say.

• 6:20Derrick Levasseur?

  There's the bias and that's why we're not, we're not allowing you to, to translate these transcripts. Because you're going to come up with this whiny, really like victim-y voice for Gypsy. Cause and it's all sarcastic.

• 6:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know what I did, officer.

• 6:35Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. So you're out. You're fired.

• 6:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I, what I'm saying is, okay, the reason I came into this series feeling some sort of way about Gypsy is because I've already seen this footage. I've already saw that. I already read the messages. I already knew all that stuff. And that's why it makes it hard. To be in complete support of her as this innocent bystander.

• 6:55Derrick Levasseur?

  We can see. We can see. We're on episode.

• 6:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh dude, wait till you're done watching the footage. You'll be right there with me, my friend.

• 7:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe I will, but we will get there. But I, yes, to answer your question, I'm ready to go. We got a lot to cover. Let's all see it for the first time.

• 7:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're gonna play this first clip and we're gonna obviously stop. And we're gonna react to some of these things because it calls for it, right? But this is Gypsy pretending she doesn't know that her mother was just stabbed to death. Acting like everything's peaches and cream.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  I'm originally from Missouri and I came here. My mom kicked me out of the house. She was like, well, all this time, you know, throw up. So I got out of my own and I called my boyfriend and he came, he lives in Big Bend. And he came down to Springfield to pick me up. Anyway, we take the Greyhound bus and everything seems fine. We got, our bus got delayed a little bit, but we got here okay. And then a couple of days went by, perfectly normal.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, we, we wake up to a loud, loud, loud knock at the door. They're like, Lockwood County Police, you're under arrest. And, well, he's the only one that's under arrest. I'm not really sure what happened here. And, and anyway, they took us and I'm here. And I don't know what's going on with them.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  All right, I can try and.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  It's okay.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  We're, a lot of the detectives knows a lot more than I do.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Right. And I had to go to the hospital and get some medicine because I have a seizure disorder.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  I should kind of knock me out.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  Busy day, huh?

• 8:48Speaker 02

  It's kind of weird though, people seeing you in handcuffs, they give you this weird look. And I'm like, I didn't do anything. Like, okay, I didn't kill anybody, I don't do drugs, I don't smoke, I don't drink. I didn't do nothing. I'm a good girl.

• 9:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Obviously, like, she's going with the narrative that they agreed on, but she's also sprinkling in things, right? To distance herself from Nicholas Gotodjohn. The first word she says to someone at this police station is basically like, you know, "I don't know what I did." Like, "I didn't do anything wrong." She's like, "He got arrested, not me." You know, "I don't know what I'm here for." And then it was so funny, because, and I know it might be hard to hear, and hopefully Shannon can clean up some of this audio, but she's like, "It's so weird, people see you in handcuffs, and you just want to be like, 'I didn't do anything, I didn't kill anybody, I don't do drugs, I'm a good girl.'"

• 9:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it looks like there's some transcripts underneath it, too, the captions underneath it.

• 9:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, there's some, they're not super good, but, um, she's a good girl, she never killed anybody, but allegedly, she has no idea that her mother is even dead, so why is she even saying, why would you even say that? You're giving yourself away. She also mentions she has a seizure disorder, and she needs medicine, so it's convenient. You know, she claims that her mother made her pretend to be sick, and she was never sick, and none of these things were actually true, but when it suits her, when she wants to appear weak and vulnerable and the victim, "Oh, she has a seizure disorder, and she's very sick, and she needs help." You know, so it's like, you could say she learned to use this to garner sympathy from people through her mother, but you would also say, "Hey, your mother's not here making you do this anymore, so why are you?"

• 10:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  And what I also want to specifically say is in none of these clips, and in none of these interviews with Gypsy or Nick, will you hear either of them say, "Her mother abused her, her mother made her pretend to be sick, her mother, yes, her mother made her go in a wheelchair." Nick is gonna say, you know, briefly, he'll say something like, "Yeah, her mother forced her to be in a wheelchair, um, when she was at home." But never are they like, "Oh, she abused her, she made her do all these medical procedures." Gypsy never says this to the police, ever.

• 10:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ever. In fact, all she says is, I love my mother. She's my best friend. We had our issues, but we worked through them. I would never have done anything. And you'd think at this point, when it's all said and done, you're sitting in the police station, your mother's dead. If you were going to come out and be like, you know what? Yeah, I did do it. We did this, but I was being abused. I was being harmed. I had to save myself. They never say that, ever.

• 11:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I was gonna say that much later, as I start to hear her actual interrogation. I will say here, it's a slippery slope, right? Because you have basically what it appears to be maybe a patrolman who's outside the door guarding her. And she, she more than likely has not been Mirandized yet. So, anything she says at this point, yes, it's on camera, it can be used, but that law enforcement officer has to make sure he doesn't elicit some type of response based on even just a basic question.

• 11:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you can tell, he's, he's trying to avoid.

• 11:51Derrick Levasseur?

  He's trying to avoid that landmine. He could screw up an entire murder investigation. So, he did the right thing here, and she's voluntarily putting this information forward, because she doesn't know his standard, his standing in the police department. She's trying to get ahead of the narrative. She's probably thinking, oh, he'll relay what I'm saying there. I'm trying to get people on my side. I will say, just hearing this little bit, based on what was described last episode, it is a tough pill to swallow, because if everything is the way it was described by Nicholas Goodejohn, and even her, she clearly knows why she's there. And as you just mentioned, and I think it's a very strong argument, if she comes in there and said, and she's crying, saying, I know why we're here. I know why we're here. I know what happened. But here's the reason why. I knew this was

• 12:36Derrick Levasseur?

  coming. Here's the reason why. Much stronger argument for her. But she's going with the, gee golly, I don't know anything. If you're to believe everything that we've heard, it's, it's, it's, it's a tough video to watch.

• 12:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's manipulative.

• 12:52Derrick Levasseur?

  You know she's bullshitting.

• 12:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Derrick Levasseur?

  So, we'll keep going. We'll keep going. But that's, that's my first thought.

• 12:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, well, Gypsy and this police officer keep chatting for a while. She asks him, are there any movie theaters around? Because if she's going to move to a place, she has to make sure there's a movie theater because she really wants to see the new Star Wars movie that's coming out in December. Right? If you're gonna move to someplace, Gypsy, you are moving to someplace. It's called prison, all right? It's called prison. She's like literally so delusional at this point and thinks that she's so good at getting her way and getting out of things that she's thinking, I'm just gonna, you know, put on a high pitched voice, do a little crying, act like I have no idea what's happening. They're gonna release me and I'm gonna be living here in Waukesha County, going to see the Star Wars movies. So they then begin talking about Universal Studios.

• 13:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Gypsy brags about all the cool things that she and her mother were able to do when they went to places like this because of her condition. She also gives him a masterclass on Harry Potter and the different wizarding houses.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  This past January, I got a chance to meet some of the cats.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  You did?

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Because my mom and I went on vacation to Universal Studios.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  Okay, so the Harry Potter loser?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yes, and it was the Harry Potter Expo. So I got to meet the girl that plays Luna.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  I got to meet the twins, the Weasley twins.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Really?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Dumbledore and Hagrid.

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Wow, that must've been pretty cool.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  It was. The twins are very nice. I mean, they're all very nice, but the twins actually fit their personality on the movie.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Basically the same people?

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. My mom and I bought the exclusive package. And that gives you one special night that they shut down the parks to where you and only the people that bought that package are let in. It's closed off to everyone else.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  So it's like the VIP experience?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  And they have this special event where they bring food out and you can go walk around, eat free ice cream, and it's just a whole thing to yourself.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Really? How many people do they give that to? Is it noticeably much crowded?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  I think it's 100 packages they sell.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  And they had a lot of people that didn't get the experience that me and my mom did because a lot of people were rushing to get the autographs. On the package it said that you get a guaranteed meet and greet, but that's actually not true. And Pottermore was there, the website, and they were sorting people. I got sorted into Hufflepuff.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Hufflepuff.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  And for years I've been a Gryffindor. I was having a major breakdown. I'm like, "No, I'm a Gryffindor. Every quiz I'm taking is Gryffindor. I cannot be Hufflepuff." And the funniest thing is that you would think that Gryffindor is righteous and they do the right thing. And they're brave, but they're also good. But there are a lot of people telling you they're more like Slytherin than you would think. It's just they're more bad wizards that come from Slytherin than Gryffindor.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  I think you've heard that.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I wanted to insert this clip, and there's a lot more I could have inserted, but this specific clip, because I want people to understand, Gypsy loved the benefits that she got from the con that her mother was running. She loved it. She felt it made her feel special. It made her feel like, "Oh, I'm not one of these peons that has to go into the park when all these other people, I get to go in special. It's a special VIP thing." Like, she was very big on that. And also, I wanted to show you how casually and happily she can just chat away, knowing not only that her mother's dead, but what happened to her mother, heard it happening to her mother.

• 16:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is not a normal, I think, way to be in the wake of something like that.

• 17:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I think when you have more context, like I just said in the previous clip, when you know what's already transpired and you hear her talking about this in this way, kind of lighthearted. It does put a bad taste in your mouth, but I don't think we have to look too deep as to why she's doing it. First off, and this is an excuse, we have to remember that this is someone, and this, there's no disputing this. I think everyone agrees with this. This, this person is someone who is working at a lower emotional intelligence than, than her age dictates. That is, that is true. There's no doubt about it. Whether it's the chromosomal disorder, whether it's her upbringing or combination of the two, it's a fact. Okay. So there's probably some truth into here, what she's talking about, but there's no doubt in my

• 17:48Derrick Levasseur?

  mind, at least, she's trying to make herself more relatable, more friendly to this officer, because she's building a rapport with them, hoping that'll correlate with the other officers.

• 17:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  They'll, they'll be like, oh, we think she did something. He'd be like, I talked to that girl for an hour. She's the sweetest little button I've ever seen. There's no way she could have done this. She's putting her, her pieces on the chessboard very intentionally and carefully.

• 18:13Derrick Levasseur?

  There's no doubt. Regardless of what you think about Dee Dee, one thing that was passed on to Gypsy and that was conveyed to her and also instilled in her throughout her childhood was how to lie, was how to garner sympathy. She's done it her whole life, Gypsy Rose. She's done this with people time and time again, to the point where they've gotten free houses, free trips and a bunch of news attention. This is what she does. This is her wheelhouse. She is doing exactly what she's done for most of her childhood, now into her adulthood, and she's pulling from the playbook. No doubt in my mind. We're going to keep going, but before we do, let's take our first break.

• 18:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So then, you know, Gypsy's chatting with this police officer. Then eventually Detective Sergeant Stan Hancock from Green County arrives to talk to Gypsy, who told him she was 19 years old and that her date of birth was June 27, 1995, even though Gypsy has since claimed that she's, she found out how old she actually was long before that. And that was one of the reasons she was so mad at her mother. She still gives a false age to the police. So in his report Detective Hancock notes that Gypsy had a hospital bracelet on at that time and that hospital bracelet said that her birth date was July 27th 1995 which would have made her hey 23 her actual age and he's like um you know well what's going on with

• 19:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  this and she's like I don't know no idea I have no idea so Gypsy told Detective Hancock she had no idea why she was there at the police station she said she'd been homeschooled but she could still read her comprehension level was good you know that's when they Mirandaize her and then early on in the interview Gypsy told Detective Hancock that she did not have a cellphone he then notes in his report that later in the interview she stated she did have a cellphone but she only used it for Yahoo Messenger and social media sites so she lied now once again at the beginning of the interview Gypsy told Detective Hancock that her mother would never let her use the computer because it wasn't safe but then he notes in his report that later on in the interview Gypsy told him she'd met her boyfriend Nick Gotijan online and the way she communicated with him was by

• 20:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  using her mother's laptop okay so she lied then Detective Hancock informs Gypsy that her mother is dead and we've already seen a bit of this clip but I want to play it again as a reminder especially now after we've seen and read the messages that she was sending to Nicholas Gotijan before the murder.

• 20:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah well this goes back to what I was just saying she's used to running this playbook but in those circumstances most of the time she's been given the benefit of the doubt people just believe her because of her appearance.

• 20:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because they're not police officers.

• 20:59Derrick Levasseur?

  They are not detectives. She has not been in this environment before where everything's going to be fact-checked and corroborated and going to be compared and contrasted to other statements as well as her actual physical activity when it comes to search history all that stuff so although she's a good liar she hasn't played this game before and it's showing but yeah let's see that clip.

• 21:20Speaker 04

  And I want you to understand that you need to be honest with me and if you're involved in anything it's not about her to tell you that you need to tell me okay. Your mom's dead okay now what I want to ask you is your mom's your mom's passed away okay and she's deceased alright now what I want to ask you did you have involvement in this okay. Hang on hang on listen to me for just a second okay I want you to understand something okay.

• 21:51Speaker 04

  You remember the snowball that we talked about? You remember the pencil that we talked about? I'll almost demonstrate something with a pencil here, okay? Look at me. Look at me for just a second, okay? Sometimes people are going along, you know how you got a pencil? You got the lead here and you got the razor right here, right? You know what I'm talking about? You've seen a pencil, right? You've used a pencil before, right? Okay? And when you write with a pencil, you write your own story, right? Okay? And you take that pencil and you're writing along with your story. Well, sometimes some people make mistakes when they write stuff down, don't they? They've all made mistakes. You've made mistakes, I've made mistakes, right? You ever made a mistake in your life? And I've made mistakes in my life? And hang on just a second, okay? When you're writing this stuff down,

• 22:36Speaker 04

  all of a sudden you make a mistake. Well, what do you do with that mistake? You take that pencil and you flip it over and you start erasing stuff, okay? And you erase it and you re-correct it. And you take that pencil and then you rewrite your history, okay? And I think that's where you're at this tonight, okay? That you have a chance to rewrite your story. And I think that that's what you can do, is you can rewrite your story tonight. Okay? Like I said earlier, I don't think you're a bad person. I really don't. You know, I don't think that that's you at all. And you're not out here, you know, doing things that are so bad that nobody wants to talk to you, nobody wants to be around you. I don't think that's you. Okay? But what I do think, okay? What I do think is, there's some stuff going on that you and I need to talk about. And why these things happen, okay?

• 23:21Speaker 04

  And that's where we're at with this. Okay? Now, I want you to understand something.

• 23:28Speaker 04

  That you need to be... Look at me, okay? Look at me for just a second. Okay? You're in a situation where you can help yourself right now. Okay? And that's what you need to do, okay? You've gotta help yourself, okay? Because the more and more you let that snowball roll down that hill and get bigger, what's gonna happen is gonna explode. And that's what's gonna happen with you, you know? You don't want that, do you? I don't think you do. I wouldn't want that. So, we've got to rewrite history. We've got to rewrite some things, don't we? Okay? And I think that's where we're at with all this, right? What happened with your mom that night?

• 24:07Speaker 02

  I don't know, why don't you leave me alone?

• 24:10Speaker 04

  Okay, you just listen to me, okay sweetheart? You know what happened to your mom, okay? You know exactly, sweetheart, I've listened to me. Let's not go down that road of taking your pencil and writing a bunch of mistakes down. And then when you get to a certain point, that paper's gone, and guess what? You can't erase it, can you?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  I know.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  You can't erase it anymore. Do you want that?

• 24:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:31Speaker 04

  I don't think you do.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:33Speaker 04

  I think you're smart enough to understand where we're at with this, okay? I think you know, okay? And I know that you know, alright? I wouldn't be here if I didn't know. And I know the answer to a lot of these questions, okay? I already know them, okay? I know them, and I'm giving you a chance to be honest with me, okay? Because you don't want this thing to spiral out of control.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  Your boyfriend's in here?

• 24:57Speaker 02

  He's here.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  He's in here?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  Alright. And do you think that we've not talked to people?

• 25:05Speaker 02

  No, I, I, I know.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  Listen to me before you say a whole lot. Do not dig yourself up in a bunch of lies. Because what's gonna happen? That snowball's gonna get so huge, sweetheart, that it's gonna explode on you. And you're never, ever gonna dig yourself out of it. Do you understand me?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  So I wanna know, okay? Why?

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Why?

• 25:28Speaker 04

  Why, why did you guys hurt your mom?

• 25:33Speaker 04

  Okay?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  We, you never hurt me.

• 25:35Speaker 04

  Sweetheart, look at me, look at me. Look at me. I've got kids, I've been doing this for a long time.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  I know, sweetheart.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  And I want you to understand something. Don't dig yourself out. Don't go down that path, okay? Listen to me for a second. You go down that path, and what's gonna happen?

• 25:55Speaker 04

  What do you think's gonna happen to you if you go down that path? It's not a path that you're gonna be on.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  If anything, I don't tell lies.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  Okay, then, then, don't, don't sit here and lie to me. Because if you do, what's gonna happen is, it's gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger. You're not gonna remember the ones that you've told other people, okay? Other people that I've probably already talked to. You understand that?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  I understand. Um.

• 26:17Speaker 04

  Why? Why?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Would you like me to start from the beginning?

• 26:21Speaker 04

  I only want you to start from the beginning, but I want, we'll talk about that here in a minute. And I'm glad you're making that, that, that progress, okay? I'm proud of you for that. But the first thing that we need to get out, so, so, out of the way right now is why? That's the biggest thing. You have, you, you know, you've got friends, you've got friends that love you.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Of course, I know.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  You, you and your mom?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:41Speaker 04

  Have friends that care for you?

• 26:42Speaker 02

  I know.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  They're, you know what? They're down there, down at the bottom of the scale with that snowball? And they're, they're asking all these questions, they're asking why?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  I know.

• 26:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Help me get them an answer as to why. Okay? You have to give me an answer as to why because they are so concerned about you.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  I know. Um, I have a lot of friends in Missouri, I know that. And, um,

• 27:05Speaker 02

  I would never hurt my mom.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  Okay. Sweetheart, like, where, do you really want to dig yourself, you're, you're digging yourself deeper, okay?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  No, seriously, I would never hurt her.

• 27:13Speaker 04

  Listen to me, listen to me, okay? I, I don't, I don't play around with that, okay? I'm not, I don't play around with this, okay?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm.

• 27:20Speaker 04

  Listen to me. Listen to me. Don't let that snowball get bigger because that's what you're doing right now, okay? You, you have a chance, you have the opportunity right here, right now. Because once I walk out that door and that opportunity's gone, guess what? It's gone. It's just like when that paper's taken away, when you're writing that pencil? You don't have a chance to erase that mistake.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Sure, I have a million questions right now.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  Okay, and, and you know what? And I'm proud of you for that, wanting to ask those million questions. And you know what? We can answer those, okay?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:50Speaker 04

  But we gotta get down to the bottom of why.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  Okay? The why. And your fa- your friends are very, very concerned about you. They all love you. But guess what?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  Those friends are standing at the bottom of that hill.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  And this, that snowball

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Is getting ready to crush them because they want, they want a snowball.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  I think that's the thing, very, very clearly, you think that it's me? Why do you think that it's me? I have always thought my mom, my mom and I are best friends.

• 28:18Speaker 04

  Listen to me, listen to me.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  Please don't date yourself in this hole. And that's what you're doing. You're still doing it. Okay. You're the only one that knows the why and your friends.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Sir.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  Do you really want to disappoint your friends?

• 28:30Speaker 02

  No, of course not.

• 28:31Speaker 04

  Okay, then why?

• 28:32Speaker 02

  May I please speak?

• 28:34Speaker 04

  Well, when we get to the why this happened?

• 28:37Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't even really know what happened.

• 28:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is definitely the clip we already watched and we got a lot of clips to cover, so I'm not going to go long here. This is a tactic. I appreciate what the detective's doing. His analogies aren't that great, but listen, everyone has their own approach. But mainly what he's doing, and this isn't to be politically, you know, in that game at all, but politicians do this as well. Where they're going to say a lot, but they're not really saying much. And what he's trying to prevent here is from her, is from her doing too much by just getting off path. He has probably at this point already spoken to Nicholas Gotajohn.

• 29:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, he has not actually.

• 29:17Derrick Levasseur?

  He hasn't. Okay. Well, it's a little interesting then how he's this confident, but he's already developed an opinion on this investigation based on the evidence that he has. I don't know what he has. I don't know, but he already knows that she knows more than she's saying. I will say more than likely he's seen the text messages.

• 29:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe. He doesn't talk to Nick Gotajohn. The other detective is talking to Nick Gotajohn at the same time that Gypsy's being spoken to.

• 29:40Derrick Levasseur?

  That's odd that they're doing it at the same time now.

• 29:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  You'll see towards the end, he leaves the room, talks to the other detective, comes back in and plays hardball. Okay, so that's when he's really going hard. Right now, you're right, he does seem confident, but.

• 29:55Derrick Levasseur?

  He's overly confident because he wants to portray that level of confidence to her. Listen, stop the cute stuff. I'm not here asking you this question because I'm guessing. I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking you. I just want to know why.

• 30:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I think it's because they knew she was the one who made those Facebook posts.

• 30:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, not only the Facebook post, Stephanie, but all to get the arrest warrant, they had to get that signed by a judge.

• 30:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then she ran away with Nick, right?

• 30:21Derrick Levasseur?

  But the ran away is whatever, but they have messages between her and Nicholas Gotajohn describing the murder before it happened.

• 30:30Derrick Levasseur?

  They already have all that. They probably had that in their affidavit, which was signed by a judge. They already know she knows more than she's saying and they, if they're good at what they do, they've already looked into the videos that are out there about her and they know her game. So he's not giving her that out. That's all I'll say. Again, we get a lot of clips, but I think this is pretty self-explanatory for most people watching, you know? We get a lot of part-time detectives out there. They, they get it. They get what's going on here. This detective is trying to keep her on track, not even allowing her a window to say, maybe I'm not involved. That ship has sailed as far as they're concerned.

• 31:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's also babying her a little bit, you know, at times, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you for having questions, you know, like encouraging her, I'm on your side. I'm trying to save you from this. We know that it's not, you know, you're not a completely innocent party. Let me help you. Don't make this worse for yourself. We've seen this tactic a million times.

• 31:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I've had to do it with child molesters and it kills me.

• 31:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah, yep, couldn't do that.

• 31:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I understand where you're coming from. I get it.

• 31:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, you were a big brother player. You have that level of manipulation in you. I don't. I'm gonna sit, uh, some do. I'm gonna sit across to the table from somebody like Gypsy and I'm gonna be like, all right, enough, enough.

• 31:44Derrick Levasseur?

  You get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.

• 31:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. But this is why I wouldn't.

• 31:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Cause you don't want her to say lawyer.

• 31:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I know. Oh, I know. But listen, I can't take it. Like I can't.

• 31:53Derrick Levasseur?

  You walk in the room, Stephanie, I'm saying lawyer.

• 31:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, I'm not walking in the room, Derek.

• 31:57Derrick Levasseur?

  You walk in and you put that piece of paper down the picture like, all right, buddy, tell me what happened and I'm gonna go lawyer.

• 32:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I already wrote your confession out for you. Just sign it.

• 32:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope, I'm gonna say, get her out of here, lawyer.

• 32:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's why I'm not walking in that room. But, and listen, I obviously clipped a lot of this, so you cannot tell how long it goes on.

• 32:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, I'm sure she says a lot without saying anything.

• 32:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Gypsy denied doing anything wrong for a long time, like the better part of an hour, dude. And even when she does start to open up and tell like, A semblance of the truth, quote unquote, her truth. It is a completely different story than we see in the messages between herself and Nicholas Cody John. So eventually she's like, okay, I know, I know what happened to my mom, but blah, blah, blah, blah. Completely different story. And it's interesting because she will eventually give a why, because he keeps asking for the why. That's his, you know, he wants the motive.

• 32:50Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the tactic.

• 32:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right.

• 32:52Derrick Levasseur?

  We don't want to know if, we want to know why.

• 32:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't care how you met this dude. I don't care what, what hotel you guys stayed at right now. We'll talk about those details later. I need to know why this happened. And she does eventually give a why, but it's not the same why, the same motive that she's now giving to everyone. It's not, oh, my mother was horrible to me. My mother abused me. My mother made me do this. My mother made me do that, et cetera, et cetera. It's a completely different reason, a completely different motive that Gypsy gives. And we're gonna hear that. And it's kind of what Derek and I have sort of been saying for the last few episodes, especially after reading the text messages.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  I, I came here because my mother came out of my house. She and I were having relationship problems. Um, I guess she wanted me to stay with her girl forever. She didn't really like my boyfriend. Um, and she was like, pretty much, um, if you want to move to Wisconsin with him, fine, go. And I packed my stuff. Um, she basically wanted me out of the house before then because we kept on having arguments. But I'm not a violent person. I would never, ever hurt her. And, um, and a lot of our arguments stemmed from being with Nick.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  And so.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  I just basically chose to come here. I gave him money to come here. And, um, and I said, can you please come pick me up? Cause my mom's kicking me out of the hospital soon. And that's when he asked his mom, can, can I stay with his mom and him and his stepdad and his little brother? His mom said, fine. So, um, anyway, uh, I don't, it's not that I was like, baby came to Springfield, but I know that I gave him a Monday's stay at a hotel. And, um, anyway, I let him know that, um...

• 34:53Speaker 04

  Hey, hang on a minute. Okay, we're, we're going in a totally different direction here. Okay, we're gonna get back to where we started from. Let's get back to the why. I, I, we can talk all night long about this other stuff and I'll sit here and I'll listen to you and I'll listen to everything. I, this investigation is very thorough, okay? And there's a lot of whys. And you, you can answer those whys, okay? Okay, and your, your friends, okay?

• 35:22Speaker 02

  My friends know me as a sweet girl.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  You're right, you're right. But you know what? Sometimes sweet people make mistakes. Everybody does, okay? You make mistakes, I make mistakes. But you know what? I, I'm glad you're not this person that's out here going around and doing this to a lot of other people, okay? I'm glad you're not that person. If you are, I don't even wanna talk to you. I don't even wanna be in the same room with you, if that's you. Okay, but I think what it is, I think there's a lot of frustration in your life. And that you're, you know, there's some things that you and your mom, you know, if you've already said that your mom and you kinda had some arguments and you kinda had some strained relationships, okay?

• 35:57Speaker 02

  But we worked through it.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  And you worked through it, you're right, you do, but sometimes that can get the better of people, okay? Now, I think that's kinda where you're at with that. I think that, that you're stressing, you're right, because your mom wanted you to stay so little all the time. Finally got to a born point and you just said, you know what? I'm done, you know? No matter what my mom, I'm gonna go with my boyfriend, I'm gonna do whatever I want now. You've made a decision, okay? But we need to get to why this happened to your mom, okay? You know what? People make mistakes every day. You do, I do, we all do. We've established that. Why did this happen?

• 36:33Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  You do know why it happened, okay?

• 36:36Speaker 02

  I don't know why it happened.

• 36:38Speaker 04

  Uh, let me tell you something. I walked out that door.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Did she have a heart attack? She was too sick.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  Hey, hey, it could be. We're not gonna play those games. I'm not gonna do that. That's not what I'm here to do.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Okay?

• 36:56Speaker 04

  Then start being honest with yourself. And start being honest with me.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  I am scared.

• 37:07Speaker 04

  No, you're not. Okay? You're not a bad person. I don't care what anybody's ever said to you. I don't care what your family's ever done to you.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  I'm scared.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  I don't care that maybe somebody's bullied you or made fun of you.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  I don't know if you even know this, but my mom had guardianship papers for me.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  Can we talk about why first? And I'm glad you brought that up, okay? Because I've talked to them.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  And you know what? They're this group of people that's sitting in here asking me why. Detective Hancock, why? Why? With tears in her eyes. Detective Hancock, why? Why?

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Why don't you tell me why, please?

• 37:46Speaker 04

  You tell me why, and then I'll tell you why.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  I don't know why.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  Yes, you do, sweetheart. You know exactly what's going on.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  I don't. Please, I don't know what's going on.

• 37:55Speaker 04

  Sweetheart, look at me, okay? Stop, let this get out of control. Stop. Yeah, you do know. And that's smart. I'm proud of you for saying that you know, because you do know. Okay? Because here's the...

• 38:07Speaker 02

  I'm just wondering. The question you're asking, why? What happened to you? Why? Why?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Why did I come up here? Why did something happen to my mom?

• 38:20Speaker 04

  And that's why I'm asking. Why?

• 38:22Speaker 02

  She had a lot of medical conditions.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  This is not a medical condition. And you know that. It's not a medical condition at all. Okay?

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Please tell me she did not commit... So sorry. She had bipolar?

• 38:35Speaker 04

  Hey, we're not gonna get off on that track. We're not getting off on that track, okay? You know what happened?

• 38:42Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:43Speaker 04

  Do you know what happened? You were there, okay?

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Wait, no.

• 38:47Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, you were. You were there.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  I was there.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  Okay?

• 38:52Speaker 02

  I told you I got kicked out.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  You're leaving stuff out. You know something. And you're afraid. You're scared.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  I am afraid, and I am scared because I don't know what's going on.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  So has somebody threatened you?

• 39:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 39:05Speaker 04

  Okay. How far are you gonna let this snowball get?

• 39:10Speaker 04

  How big are you gonna let this snowball get before it just explodes?

• 39:15Speaker 02

  I killed my mom.

• 39:17Speaker 04

  I know you do. I know you, sweetheart, I know you love your mom. I have no doubt that you love your mom.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  I killed my mom. I should have never left. I should have never left.

• 39:32Speaker 04

  Good.

• 39:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there it is. Great job by the detective. He's not letting her off the leash. He's doing what he needs to do. Uh, all I'll say is this, it's, she's a liar. We know she's a liar. We know she's trying to, she's trying to get herself out of a situation. She doesn't know what he knows. And I, I said it in the last break when we talked about the clip. He's seen those D, DMs. He's seen those messages. He knows the level of involvement she has. I would bet my life on it. If he hasn't talked to Nicholas Gotodjohn, we read those messages and that reaction, that visceral reaction that I had to you reading them is what he's basing this off of. That's how he knows she's lying. So before we keep going, let's take our next break. We'll be right back.

• 40:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so we're back. Um, I think she knows that the detectives at least know how her mother died, right?

• 40:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  So her-

• 40:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Wait, it wasn't a suicide?

• 40:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, her playing this game like-

• 40:30Derrick Levasseur?

  It wasn't a heart attack?

• 40:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did she have a heart attack? She had bipolar. Please don't tell me she committed suicide. This is once again just the, oh, I, how could I even possibly know? I wasn't there. And he says, you were there. And she's like, I wasn't there. You know, she's like-

• 40:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Makes it more true if you whisper.

• 40:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she, she's very much trying, she's, she's gonna die on the hill, right? And a lot of liars, compulsive liars do this.

• 40:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Deny, deny, deny.

• 40:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  They've gotten out of things so many times in the past by lying. They've gotten out of, but by almost just exhausting people with their lies. So that people are eventually like, okay, whatever, dude, whatever. But once again, this is a police investigation. Somebody is dead and these detectives are not gonna stop until they get to the truth. So you cannot lie your way out of this one, which is what he's, he's trying to. But this is another thing. It's like, how horrible can you be? You, or- orchestrated and planned your mother's murder. You were there. You got the knife. You got the gloves. You let him in. You brought this person in knowing what he was gonna do. And then you're like, please don't tell me she died of a heart attack, officer. Like, it's so gross. And I'm saying, this is like an hour in. So I do have to give her credit. She's got some, some resilience here.

• 41:40Derrick Levasseur?

  That's nothing. I've had to go six, seven hours. Before they break.

• 41:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  For somebody who's got such, you know, low emotional IQ and somebody who's, you know, got, you know, like a 15 year old, you'd expect that she would have broken by now. But she is hanging in there. Okay, she's gonna-

• 41:59Derrick Levasseur?

  She miscalculated though.

• 42:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Knowing what was going back and forth on the DMs, she should have said, if I get caught, I'm gonna go immediately to, we had to do this for my own safety. To go in there and present it as, I'm just completely removed from this.

• 42:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Derrick Levasseur?

  She loses all credibility going forward. So that was the wrong, that was a wrong tactical decision.

• 42:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's, that's what I'm saying. And we'll wrap this up at the end, but that's kind of what I'm saying. Cause by now you would have assumed she'd been like, okay, fine. I did it. But this is why. And this is valid. Yes. And she never, she never says that. Okay. So, finally, as you could hear at the end of the clip, she's like, I do know what happened. She's crying. Um, and then she's going to, um, basically, finally break. She's gonna tell the detective what happened. But she's gonna blame everything on Nick, right? He was violent. Um, there hadn't been a plan to kill her mother. He just showed up and he did it. And then he forced her to have sex with him. And he forced her to help him clean out the murder scene. Gypsy goes from the beginning of the clip we're about to watch right now, the beginning of this clip, she says she loves him so much,

• 43:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  to being absolutely terrified of him during this short clip.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  I honestly didn't do anything to my momma.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Who did? Who did?

• 43:25Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Do we wanna go back to square one? You don't wanna do that. Just because we do bad things, doesn't mean that other people don't love us. Doesn't mean that your mom doesn't love you.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Look, I'm gonna tell you this, but please don't, don't think I did it because I did anything to my mom because I didn't. Look, Nick and my mom didn't get along very good.

• 43:49Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  But that's all I know.

• 43:52Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 43:54Speaker 04

  So why do you think Nick did this?

• 43:56Speaker 02

  I didn't say he did.

• 43:58Speaker 04

  Sweetheart, I already know. I've already talked to people, okay?

• 44:04Speaker 04

  And right now?

• 44:05Speaker 02

  He said that he hated my mom, but because my mom didn't wanna stick together. But I was getting on my mom's nerves. Her nerve medicine was running out. Her patience was getting very thin for me, sticking up for him every time.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Good job, girl. You did a good job.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  And so I,

• 44:35Speaker 02

  she asked me to stay away from him. And I promised her I would.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  But then she just said, "Look, if you wanna go, go." I guess out of love, she did that. Because she wanted me to be happy.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  So why did this happen to your mom? What was the reason for it?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  I don't know. All I know is that...

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Why, why didn't it hurt her?

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Sweetheart, what was his reason behind this? And go back to that why.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  I can't say why. He knows I love my mom. He knows that, that she's the most important thing to me.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  So why do you think he did this to her?

• 45:25Speaker 02

  He only said something to me that... He said that it's us against the world and that he's gonna protect me no matter what and that we were gonna get married and everything, nothing was gonna stop us.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  Good, even your mom? So he took care of that, didn't he?

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Um, we're married.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  I don't think he's gonna ever hurt her.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  I mean, he's very sweet. He's very kind. I mean, he could be... He doesn't like police that much. He's kind of a radicalist, I guess you could call it.

• 46:10Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  But, um...

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Sweetheart, your mom loves you very much.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  So why not go off on what Nick believes and what he doesn't believe?

• 46:22Speaker 04

  Okay?

• 46:25Speaker 04

  So we're gonna start talking about why Nick did this to your mom.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  And you know why he did this.

• 46:36Speaker 04

  Now's the time to be truthful, sweetheart. No more lies.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  The only reason Nick and Nick are...

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Is because he wanted me to help.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Because my mom kept making it in the way of us being together.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  Sure, sure she did. She didn't like Nick. She didn't want her little baby girl grow up. She wanted to keep her little baby girl young, didn't she?

• 47:01Speaker 02

  She, she said that, um, there was something dangerous about him. He had a way of reading people.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  And she said that he seems like the head in a closet type of person with Trump. The kind of murderer he kills and...

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Your mom was right.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Jeffrey Dahmer kind of person.

• 47:21Speaker 04

  You think your mom was right? You know your mom was right. You get a fat on the nail on the head, sweetheart.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  You know your mom was right when she said that.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  You shouldn't have let.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Okay. And how should you have listened to her?

• 47:48Speaker 02

  I should have broke her.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Should you have tried to stop him?

• 47:58Speaker 04

  Was he too strong?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Cute, are you strong?

• 48:01Speaker 04

  Was it hard for you to try to stop him?

• 48:06Speaker 04

  It was very hard for you to try to stop him, wouldn't it?

• 48:11Speaker 04

  He's too strong, wouldn't he?

• 48:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I see that. Look at me.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  Did you try to stop him?

• 48:25Speaker 02

  I did.

• 48:26Speaker 04

  Okay. Hey, I'm proud of you. Look at me. I'm very proud of you for that. Okay, this is what I stepped in my direction. Okay. How did you try to stop him? Did you try to pull the knife away from me?

• 48:41Speaker 04

  Was that a yes?

• 48:44Speaker 04

  I can't guess with your nod and swan mask and your looks like you're shaking your head up and down. Was that a yes?

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:52Speaker 04

  What did he do with the knife after all this was done?

• 49:00Speaker 02

  I'm sorry that I lied to you for living in this house. I admit it all.

• 49:06Speaker 04

  I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you.

• 49:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So, there's a lot to talk about in this clip. And actually, I was wrong. It's the next clip where she starts talking about how violent he is and how afraid of him she is. But she starts building it in this clip, right? And here's where the why comes in. She says, "This is why my mom didn't want us to be together. He wanted me to himself. My mom kept getting in the way of us being together." Not my mom was horrible to me and he wanted to save me from her. Not my mom was abusing me and he wanted to save me from her. She didn't want us to be together, which isn't that what we kind of said last episode?

• 49:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 49:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I think that this is the truth. This is why they killed Dee Dee because she was stopping them from being together. She also tells this detective that she tried to stop Nick. And he's like, how did you try to stop him? You know, what did you do? Did you grab the knife? And she's like, and kind of moving her head and he's like, is that a yes? And she's like, yeah, like not. So she's now making like telling this guy that not only did she not orchestrate this, but when she realized what he was gonna do, she tried to stop him. She grabbed the knife, but he was too strong. He was just too strong. And this is all bullshit.

• 50:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Why do you have to say it like that?

• 50:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is all bullshit because it's gross. It's gross to me.

• 50:21Derrick Levasseur?

  This is what they all do. This is what they all do. You can't, this is, this is what all these.

• 50:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but this is what they all do. This is what all these types of people do. But that's not the way she's being painted and portrayed now.

• 50:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, just to not.

• 50:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's my issue.

• 50:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Not to be redundant in what everything you said, because I'd basically be saying the same thing. Another thing that I noticed in this interview that I thought indicates a level of intelligence that maybe some people don't, don't think of when they think of Gypsy Rose, right? There's a moment there where he does a tactic that may even get past some people who are considered to be smart, where he says something along the lines of, well, why did Nick do it? Or, or something and she goes, I didn't say he did it.

• 51:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 51:03Derrick Levasseur?

  She stops him right in his tracks. She, she, she stopped him right in his tracks with, well, I didn't say he did it. So she's there. She's there and she's aware.

• 51:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's quick with it.

• 51:11Derrick Levasseur?

  She's aware of the chess match that's going on right now. And once she realizes, and that's why it can take a while. She's not going to be able to weasel her way out of it. And he says things like, I've already spoken to people. She's like, shit, he knows. I gotta go, I gotta change approaches here. And she slowly. Getting there. And this is, this is a very common thing. It's not usually lie, lie, lie, then break, then complete truth. There's an evolution. It usually starts with a softer version of it. Maybe even present themselves as a victim as well. Maybe even someone who is trying to prevent it like she's doing now. It takes a lot of versions to finally get the truth out of it. It's a very long, exhaustive process to do it. Exhaustive, is that a word?

• 51:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so this isn't something that happens in a matter of seconds. But overall, my grade for this detective, truthfully, A+. I really, he's going back and forth between the, you know, telling her, he's there for her, giving her words of affirmation, and then also keeping her on track. This is a young person who is manipulative and a very good liar, and likes to get by on her appearance and presenting herself in this kind of, you know, like, very, very, what's the word I'm looking for, like?

• 52:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who's afraid of little old me? I'm super vulnerable. I'm just a sweet-

• 52:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Vulnerable person, yeah. And, and, and he's not buying it. He's got his ducks in a row. He's confident in what he's putting forward, and I think he's doing a great job.

• 52:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  He is. And I also think it's interesting because he's kind of like pushing her, but he's also giving her enough rope to hang herself.

• 52:48Derrick Levasseur?

  That's it. He's her best friend, but also playing detective. He's doing both because she feels a level of trust with him where now she's starting to open up to him.

• 52:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I don't think she feels a level of trust with him at all. She would have started opening up long before this. Like I said, you're getting the very, very condensed version. She holds her own against him for quite a while.

• 53:07Derrick Levasseur?

  She could easily just say, "I want a lawyer."

• 53:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think she's realizing, damn, I think they know. And, and he's, he's saying, "We talking to people." But he's not saying, "Who?" So in her head, who is she thinking that he's talking to?

• 53:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Talking to Nick.

• 53:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nick. He can't say that. He's not going to outright say that. Because it's not true. He hasn't talked to Nick yet. But he's going to say, "Oh, I'm talking to people." And without, in its context, clues. And he's, he's very good. But Detective Hancock, once again, asks Gypsy, "Why? Why did Nicholas Goddard John do this to her mother?" And she said she knows why. She starts talking about how Nick had come to town the previous March to watch Cinderella with her. And Gypsy says it hurt her mother DeeDee's feelings because Gypsy paid more attention to Nick than she did to her mother. And so Gypsy claims that DeeDee did not like Nick from then on. And later, when Gypsy called Nick to talk to him, she said DeeDee took the phone from her and started going off on Nick and

• 54:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  telling him like, oh, you're not good enough for my daughter. You're creepy. It's creepy that you're hitting on my daughter at a family movie. It's worth saying that I don't believe this conversation ever happened because Nick does not say it. He's asked about the Cinderella movie in his interrogation and he said, oh, DeeDee was nice. He said DeeDee was nice. She didn't, she didn't give me any hard time. But later, Gypsy told him, my mom doesn't like you. Okay? So that's how he came to know that. So now, Gypsy says that because Nick doesn't like his name being drug through the mud, he killed DeeDee and that was his way of getting justice and getting back at her for calling him creepy and saying like, you're not good enough for my daughter.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  I love him so much, but maybe he can't get out now. Her face is smiling. What?

• 54:48Speaker 04

  Maybe he can.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  He, he killed my mom.

• 54:51Speaker 04

  He killed your mom?

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Yes, I know it. Um.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  How did he do that?

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Um.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  He was supposed to come and visit me and, um, and I thought we were gonna go outside and we're just gonna sit together for a while on the porch.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  That's your mom's house?

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  And, um, he, he came inside and, um, he, he started walking to, um, I was in my mom's room and I told him that we need to go outside, we need to go outside. Um.

• 55:37Speaker 04

  What did your mom do at that point? Was she asleep?

• 55:40Speaker 02

  She was asleep and I had got up to use the restroom. And at that point, um, he had put me in the bathroom and he had locked the door.

• 55:52Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  And, um, he went to my mom's room and I cried. I heard him scream for a baby.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  You heard your mom crying? You heard, you heard your mom crying and you heard your mom calling out your name?

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. I heard him scream.

• 56:12Speaker 04

  He was screaming.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:16Speaker 04

  I'm sorry.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  And he opened the door and he was covered in his hands and, and he had cut himself in his fingers.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  You know if it was his left hand or his right hand?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Um, it was, um, gosh, I think it was his hand.

• 56:37Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  And, um, and what happened was I had, um, he commanded me to clean him up.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  And.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  How did you do that?

• 56:54Speaker 02

  I cleaned things up with, with wipes and.

• 56:58Speaker 04

  What like, what kind of wipes?

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Um, baby wipes.

• 57:01Speaker 04

  Baby wipes, okay. What did you do with those baby wipes?

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Wipes.

• 57:06Speaker 04

  Like in the bathroom trash or?

• 57:08Speaker 02

  In the garbage.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, in the garbage, okay.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  He says, you don't know how he is.

• 57:14Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  You don't know how he is.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  I know, I know, I know.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  You're like, how is he gonna?

• 57:19Speaker 04

  Listen to me, I know.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  Go, go ahead, we're just talking, okay? You're doing good.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  And I was in shock and then he took me to my bedroom. And then, um, he made me take off all my toys off the bed.

• 57:43Speaker 04

  So he made you take all your toys off your bed? Okay.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  He raped me.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  And he raped you?

• 57:52Speaker 02

  And then after he was finished, he grabbed my bag. And um.

• 57:57Speaker 04

  Grabbed your bag?

• 57:58Speaker 02

  Grabbed my bag to pack stuff.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  Okay, what was in the backpack?

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Um, stuff like soap and things, clothes, he picked up clothes for me. After that, we called a taxi.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  And um.

• 58:14Speaker 04

  Do you remember what company, taxi company it was?

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Springfield, um, Yellow Cap.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  Yellow Cap, okay, alright.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  And um.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  I know that helping him clean up was wrong.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  But he said I had to, and he grabbed me by the throat, and he said I had to.

• 58:34Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  And so that's why I did it. And um, we took a cab back to his hotel.

• 58:44Speaker 04

  Where was the hotel at?

• 58:45Speaker 02

  The D's in Kentwood, in Kentwood Avenue. North Kentwood.

• 58:52Speaker 04

  Okay, so over by One Stone Avenue, okay.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  It's like by the Cracker Barrel.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  Okay, alright.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  And um, we stayed there, and um, until we can get a bus, a Greyhound bus. And um, and so we took the Greyhound bus, and we came here where we stayed for a few days at his parents' house.

• 59:14Speaker 04

  You said that when you were in the house, he was supposed to go outside. And him and your mom, I mean, what, was him and your mom already asleep?

• 59:22Speaker 02

  She didn't know he was there.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  So she had no idea he was there?

• 59:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so now, Nick shows up at the house, they're just supposed to hang outside and talk, but he goes in, kills her mother, rapes her in, in the bedroom,

• 59:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  forces her, wait, remember, he's, she said he locked her in the bathroom, and Detective Hancock is going to. Pull this back in a minute. But um yeah, it's it's pretty much she's blaming him for everything now. And there's

• 59:51Derrick Levasseur?

  How we have grown.

• 59:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, and then she tells him, you know, he even asks her, he's like, oh, can you tell me about the knife? And she acts not only like she wasn't the one who purchased it, but she doesn't even really know what it looks like. She's like, it's long and sharp. That's all I know. He even asks her, well, where did you guys get the knife from? You know, you just pull it out of the kitchen? She's like, I have no idea. You bought it from Walmart, Gypsy.

• 1:00:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, real quick, that's why I know that he's seen the DMs. Because if you look at the way he's structuring his questions, he's asking questions that he has the answers to already from the DMs. So when he says, you know, where'd you get the knife from? And he's kind of, it sounds inquisitive, like he already knows the answer. He's trying to gauge her level of honesty at this point. And she's just burying herself deeper and deeper.

• 1:00:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  And there's gonna be in this next clip, Gypsy's gonna elaborate on the story of her mother's death, where she was, what she heard, how mean Nick was, how he bruised her up by grabbing her and dragging her around and forcing her to clean up her mother's blood. And what I don't like that Detective Hancock does, and let me know if this is wrong or right in your opinion, but she, he's asking her about marks on her neck and her arms. And she's like, these are hickies, right? And he looks at the, one of the marks on her arms. And he's like, that's not a hickey. That's absolutely not a hickey. What is that? What is that? And she's like, it's a hickey. And then he keeps pushing her. And she's finally like, it's a bruise from Nick abusing me. You know, so I didn't really like that because I genuinely think that those marks were were just hickies.

• 1:01:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he's, he's kind of like not taking that. And it's almost like he's trying to get her to kind of lean into this story about how Nick's just this abusive asshole. And you even heard in the previous clip, when she's like, my mother knew there was something wrong about him. She knew, she said he was like one of those uh head in the closet people, like a Jeffrey Dot Dahmer. And like, she doesn't know who Jeffrey Dahmer is. You know, she's acting and he's like, your mother was right. Your mother was right, you know? So it's kind of like encouraging her to fabricate more things. And I'm not a super big fan of that. But let me know what you think.

• 1:01:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  We should take a quick break and then we'll come back and play that clip.

• 1:02:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely, let's do it.

• 1:02:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. We're gonna play the next clip now, so we'll be back to talk about it afterwards.

• 1:02:11Speaker 04

  What did he tell you?

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  He just said that...

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  That she had bad talk to him, that he deserved it.

• 1:02:22Speaker 04

  And he says, did he say she deserves it? Or did he say she deserves something else or something different?

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Well, he said that he...

• 1:02:31Speaker 04

  You can use whatever words you want, no trouble.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  He said he would've done way worse if he didn't care about me. He said he wanted to originally rape her too.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  It's okay.

• 1:02:45Speaker 04

  Did you go out and see your mom?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  I didn't want to.

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  I loved my mom so much.

• 1:02:59Speaker 04

  I can tell you did.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  I would've known.

• 1:03:09Speaker 04

  If you would've known this was gonna happen, you would've never went with him. When you say with him, what do you mean by that?

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  I would've never got involved with him, but I'm...

• 1:03:17Speaker 04

  Never had a relationship with him?

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, we've been in a relationship for two years, we've said no words. And in that time, his exes have told me that he's very controlling and, um, he's into that thing, um, BDSM, the, um, fetish thing.

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  That's a sexual thing? Okay.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  And I agree to it, I guess. Uh, I, I guess I saw nothing wrong with him being a little controlling.

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  I mean, that's fine.

• 1:03:51Speaker 04

  Was, was all the sex that you had here in this state, was it consensual?

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  It was consensual.

• 1:03:57Speaker 04

  Consensual, okay. But in Missouri, there was a, he forced himself on you. And when did that happen?

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  After he's...

• 1:04:05Speaker 04

  Great choice, mom. How does that make you feel?

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Horrible because I hurt my mom.

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  He said he wanted to marry me.

• 1:04:15Speaker 04

  Okay. How did that make you feel when he told you?

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Happy.

• 1:04:19Speaker 04

  Sure?

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  Because we talked about getting married before.

• 1:04:23Speaker 04

  But you knew your mom was dead? And at that time, is that correct or not?

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  That is correct.

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  That's correct.

• 1:04:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, I'm not sure if you could hear because Gypsy's talking very low here, but she said, you know, Nick told her, um, after, you know, the, the murder, that he, he was gonna marry her. And Detective Hancock said, "And how did that make you feel?" And she said, "Good, you know, we've been talking about that for a while." And he's like, "It made you feel good even though you knew your mom was dead?" And she's like, "Yeah." Like, she kind of forgot that part, you know, like, like, "Oh, this is a person, yeah, this is a person, I'm, I'm telling you, just raped me, um, forced me on my knees to clean my mother's blood, um, was horrible to me. I was scared of him." But, yeah, I was happy when he said he wanted to marry me. So this lets you know, kind of, she doesn't actually feel that way, and she forgot herself for a moment, and slipped back

• 1:05:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  into, you know, "This is my boyfriend, I love him so much, etc., etc." And he calls her on that, and he's gonna call her on the, the bathroom lock thing as well. So, we can continue playing the clip.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  I want to protect him. I didn't say I'm gonna worry about you. Because I didn't do anything wrong.

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  So you never went to the bedroom?

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:05:41Speaker 04

  And you said that he locked you in the bathroom? How did you describe how that happened?

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Um...

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  As I was going towards my mom's room, I guess I was coming like...

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  Here, and it's a hallway.

• 1:06:03Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  And, um, I was like, "Where are you going?" And he put me in the bathroom, he closed the door, and the first he locked the door, and in the way that it locked itself.

• 1:06:15Speaker 04

  Were you inside the bathroom?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Because he locked it.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  Okay. And so he can walk up from the outside, huh?

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Uh, no, he put it, like, to lock inside, and then he closed it.

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  So the lock was on the inside?

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Well, it wasn't inside.

• 1:06:28Speaker 04

  Okay. So how come you never unlocked it and it came out?

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  I never thought about it.

• 1:06:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so this is Detective Hancock calling Gypsy out on her weird stories because she's claiming Nick Goodejohn locked her in the bathroom. And he's like, well, how did he lock you in the bathroom? And she's like, you know, he opened the door, locked it from the inside and then closed it with me in there. And he's like, well, the lock was on the inside when you just walk out of the bathroom. She's like, hmm, I didn't really think about it. He's calling her out. He realizes this story is paper thin. It doesn't hold water, right? You weren't locked in the bathroom. Bathrooms lock from the inside. The person inside the bathroom can easily get out. And yet she didn't. So she's making it seem like, oh, he prevented me from saving my mother. But in reality, you could have left the bathroom at any time, but you didn't. And then he asks her, did you know what his intention was? Why he was there?

• 1:07:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she said, not really. So we will continue the clip.

• 1:07:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, before we do, I think this is the point where it's transitioned in the interrogation where he's, he's more questioning what's happening. Because the DMs described what was going to happen prior, not actually what happened during the, it wasn't, there was no play by play in the DMs.

• 1:07:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  The DMs did say, though, he was like, go in the bathroom and, you know, stay in there.

• 1:07:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Up to that point, but as far as like when it actually went down.

• 1:07:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  On the door and that's how you know it's me and not your mother. Yeah.

• 1:07:46Derrick Levasseur?

  That's, that's it. But as far as how it went down, did she come out of the bathroom? All those little details. He's probably trying to gather that information so that he can relay it to his partner and they can go at Nicholas Goodejohn to see if, if the stories line up. One other thing, because we're about halfway through this episode and I talked at the beginning about watching these videos and looking at body language. I will say, she's covered with a blanket. Ideally, you wouldn't want that to be the case. It might've been cold in the room. I would have said to her, let me get this heat, heat turned up. You know, no blankets for right now. Let's just, you know, be so I could develop a baseline. You can't see a lot of what she's physically doing, a lot of those subconscious actions she might be doing, whether it's tapping of the feet, tapping of the fingers.

• 1:08:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Kind of rummaging, like wringing her hands out, rubbing her thighs, whatever, some of the things that I've seen over the years. You can't really see any of that because up to her neck is covered. Now, the question becomes, is it really important? For this particular interrogation, not really, because. He has what many investigators would love to have going into it. He has black and white DMs from this person proving that she was involved. In some of those interrogations, we truly don't know if the person's telling the truth or not. So that those verbal and nonverbal cues become extremely important when we're trying to evaluate the authenticity and the validity of what they're saying. Here, he's already got her. I would even call the DMs the smoking gun as far as her involvement in this.

• 1:09:10Derrick Levasseur?

  So he's working with a set of facts and standards with this case that allows him to not really have to worry about her deceptiveness from a, from a nonverbal perspective, because he already knows what she said in DMs. So when she lies about it initially, he's already able to evaluate her level of credibility and it's at zero because she's lied the entire time. So he doesn't really need those nonverbal cues as much. So in this particular interrogation, I'm okay with the blanket. It's putting her at ease. It's making her comfortable and allowing her to continue speaking. And that's ultimately what you want.

• 1:09:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. So we'll continue on with the clip.

• 1:09:47Speaker 04

  At that point, did you know what his intentions were?

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  Not really, no.

• 1:09:52Speaker 04

  You didn't know what his intentions were with your mom?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  No, I was kind of afraid of him, so I thought I'd give him time to cool off, I guess. And then I heard all this screaming. I was so scared that I just covered my ears. And I just crawled up in a little corner.

• 1:10:12Speaker 04

  What were you at in the bathroom?

• 1:10:15Speaker 04

  You said you were hard curled up?

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  By the tub, like by the toilet. I was there.

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  What were you wearing that night?

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  I was wearing a white, like, um, flowers.

• 1:10:28Speaker 04

  Did you have panties or shorts or anything on?

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  No, I usually wear panties to bed.

• 1:10:35Speaker 04

  When you were in the bathroom and you heard your mom screaming, can you kind of describe that to me?

• 1:10:43Speaker 04

  You can't start from the beginning to middle to the end.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Um, I heard her wake up, kind of moaning.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  And, um, I heard her scream.

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  You heard her moan, then you heard her scream?

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Mm, and...

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  Can you describe her screaming to me?

• 1:11:06Speaker 04

  No, that's an awkward question, but...

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Start off.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  And, um, then she kept screaming louder and louder. And then she had said, "Gypsy, Gypsy." And...

• 1:11:27Speaker 04

  He isn't here.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Gypsy, my name. She was calling for...

• 1:11:31Speaker 04

  She was calling?

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  She was calling for my name.

• 1:11:33Speaker 04

  Your mom?

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. And, um, I think I knew what he was doing.

• 1:11:41Speaker 04

  At that point, you knew what he was doing?

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  I knew what he was doing, but I was...

• 1:11:44Speaker 04

  When your mom was calling that shit for you?

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  But I was too afraid to go because I was afraid he'd do the same to me.

• 1:11:52Speaker 04

  So what if he said you kind of knew what he was going in there to do? When he locked you in the bathroom? Okay. Did he tell you kind of what he was gonna do? Or did he make us, you know, make a comment or any kind?

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:12:05Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  But while he was doing it, um...

• 1:12:10Speaker 04

  No, you say "doing it." I can't guess. Part of my job is enough to guess, so...

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  Killing her.

• 1:12:16Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Um, he said a comment.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  "You won't keep us apart. You won't keep us apart. You'll be dead before that happens."

• 1:12:31Speaker 04

  Where were you standing at? Where was he at whenever he said that?

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  I was in the bathroom with my hands over my ears like this. And he was in my mom's bedroom.

• 1:12:43Speaker 04

  And that's when he was making that comment? "You're not gonna stay in between me and her."

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:12:48Speaker 04

  Okay. How'd you get these stuff around you and that, catchy and all that?

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  They're hickies.

• 1:12:52Speaker 04

  They're just hickies? Okay. How'd you get this?

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  Um, that is a hickey and that one's a bruise.

• 1:13:00Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  And then...

• 1:13:01Speaker 04

  You're telling me this is a hickey?

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:04Speaker 04

  You've been, you've been honest with me this whole time now. Don't start lying to me now. What is this and how did you get it?

• 1:13:15Speaker 04

  I'm a guy. I would never give a girl a hickey on her arm. Okay?

• 1:13:21Speaker 04

  How'd you get that pierced? Look at me.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  He grabbed my arm.

• 1:13:29Speaker 04

  At what point did you have your arm?

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  He kept on grabbing me to bring me around the house. And he made me clean up. The drops of blood.

• 1:13:41Speaker 04

  Describe that to me.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  He grabbed my arm like this and said, "Clean it up."

• 1:13:47Speaker 04

  Now, where were you at when he did that? What part of the house were you at?

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Um, the drops of blood went from my mom's bedroom all the way to the hall into the dining room, to the kitchen.

• 1:14:03Derrick Levasseur?

  So to weigh in on what you had mentioned earlier about the hickey slash bruises, I get where you're coming from, but this is the point where he doesn't know the truth anymore. The DMs didn't describe this. So there might be something here where he's assuming incorrectly that maybe this is a situation where there's a power dynamic and Nicholas was leading the charge. And so seeing the bruise on the arm, I see where he's coming from. Why would you give a hickey on the arm? But to me, and he doesn't know Victor and he doesn't know any of that, but he also doesn't know that, as described prior, they had a pretty aggressive sexual lifestyle.

• 1:14:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  She says he's into BDSM.

• 1:14:44Derrick Levasseur?

  He's into BDSM. So I think the bruising, this is just my opinion, is from that. Not, and maybe the sex they had after the murder. I don't think he was dragging her around the house based on the DMs, telling her to clean up.

• 1:14:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Get down, clean up.

• 1:14:57Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I think that's probably the rough sex that happened not only at the house, but then at the hotel. That's my opinion.

• 1:15:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:05Derrick Levasseur?

  But he, he might be going down that road thinking, maybe we do have a person here who is in their own right. Somewhat of a victim, even though he has the DMs and he's trying to find out or and he might just be looking at it for what it is saying, I've seen hickeys before. That's a bruise mark that I've seen during multiple domestic violence cases. He might know immediately what it is. And so he just wants to get the truth out of her. He knows she's lying left and right. And so he's driving down on different things, gathering all the information. He's going to come to the conclusions later.

• 1:15:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  What did you think about the other parts of the clip?

• 1:15:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Which which parts in particular? There was a lot of clips there. There was a lot going on. So what what part else as far as the descriptions of the screaming?

• 1:15:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so she's talking about, because remember we had talked about that last episode where you were like, is she is Dee Dee screaming out as in she might think it's Gypsy killing her or is she screaming out for Gypsy and Gypsy specifically says, and you'll hear Nick say it as well. Dee Dee was calling for Gypsy to help her.

• 1:16:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she was being attacked by someone who we don't know if she knew it was Nicholas or not. But she's she's yelling out for Gypsy. I think she even said in that clip that Nicholas was saying, you're not going to keep us apart. He could hear that. Was that correct when I heard that part as well?

• 1:16:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, so.

• 1:16:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Who knows if that part's true or not? That just kind of adds to her narrative for his motive. I would say that a lot of the times this truth mixed with fallacies and that's probably what's going on here where her yelling out for her for Gypsy's true and maybe this other part isn't. The truth is we'll never know unless Nicholas confirmed that he said that as well.

• 1:16:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wait, which which other part? Oh, no. So Nicholas does say, and you'll hear him, he says something similar. But but he claims it wasn't him talking to Dee Dee. It was Victor talking to Dee Dee and saying like, you're not going to come between me and Ruby. You're not going to keep me away from Ruby. But once again, this is the narrative. He was, she was killed. Dee Dee was killed because she prevented us from being together. Okay. And I think that Gypsy really thought if she went with this narrative, that would be enough. That it would be enough. He's the one that did it. She didn't do anything. He did it because he was, he wanted to, um, what did she say earlier? He wanted me all to himself. That's the way she's sort of posing it.

• 1:17:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Only when she actually gets arrested, only when she's sitting there with a murder charge, is the, the story completely different. It was, I'm, I was being abused and he was saving me. I needed somebody to save me. It never gets brought up here. The motive is always Nicholas is in there killing her mom. And he's saying to her, you're not going to keep me from her. Not Nicholas is in there killing her mom, saying, you will never hurt the love of my life again. You will never do this to the love. You're not going to keep me from her. This is the story they both have to tell. This was the motive. This was the why.

• 1:17:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  In my opinion.

• 1:17:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I agree with that. I have no, I have no rebuttal that at no point have they said that this was done because Dee Dee was a threat to Gypsy's life.

• 1:18:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Never.

• 1:18:03Derrick Levasseur?

  It's been very consistent. It was because Dee Dee was going to keep them apart.

• 1:18:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's very consistent. So towards the end of the interview, Detective Hancock, he gets up to leave and he gives Gypsy a chance to come clean. He says, is there anything else you want to tell me? Anything about you? You didn't know this was going to happen. You didn't agree to it. And she says, no, sir.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  I didn't, I didn't do anything.

• 1:18:26Speaker 04

  You never killed your mom?

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:18:27Speaker 04

  Never touched her with a knife?

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  No, never hit her.

• 1:18:31Speaker 04

  You never agreed? Told him that you knew he was going to kill her?

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  I, I never.

• 1:18:38Speaker 04

  What do you think he's going to tell me?

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  He's going to tell you that

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  that I came here just to see him and that he didn't do it. But.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  So he's not, but he's not going to tell me that you had any part of this?

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't, I don't, honestly, I don't know what he's going to say.

• 1:18:59Speaker 04

  Okay, I'm asking you to direct some straight. You don't think he's going to tell me that you had anything to do with your mom's kill?

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:19:07Speaker 04

  This is the time to be honest, because like I told you, walk out that door.

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  He has a romantic notion of us doing everything together as a team, but I didn't. I didn't want this.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  I wanted my mom and him to.

• 1:19:25Speaker 04

  So did you kill your mom?

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  No, no, sir.

• 1:19:28Speaker 04

  Did you help?

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  No, sir.

• 1:19:29Speaker 04

  Nicholas kill your mom?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  No, sir.

• 1:19:35Speaker 04

  Did you have knowledge that Nicholas was gonna kill your mom?

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:19:39Speaker 04

  Before he did it?

• 1:19:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so right there, self-explanatory. He's going back to this to say, you know what? Let me give her another shot at telling the truth. Because I have these DMs that are in my office on my desk right now that where she's planning this whole thing out from pre-cut tape to knife to gloves to how you're gonna come in to watch the squeaky door. And she looks him square in the face after saying all these things about Nicholas Goodejohn. And he asked her and he frames it in a way where he knows it's a lie. Did you have any knowledge that this was gonna happen beforehand? Even if you didn't help with it when he was there? No, sir. No, I didn't. And that, my friend, proves you're a liar. And that's what he's going for. He's like, I can't trust this girl.

• 1:20:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And so then he leaves, right? And a lot of time goes by. They speed it up and you see Gypsy in the room and she's crying and laying down and sitting up. And so a lot of time goes by. Detective Hancock kind of goes in and out. He's asking some clarifying questions. And then after speaking to the other detective who was interviewing Nick and getting some more information, Hancock returns and confronts Gypsy with the truth.

• 1:20:44Speaker 04

  Talk to your boyfriend. There's a whole lot of stuff you're leaving out, girl.

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  Me what?

• 1:20:51Speaker 04

  Well, I'm not gonna get into it with you, okay?

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  You're leaving a lot of stuff out that you need to probably tell me. You wanna talk to me about it, tell me about it?

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  Sure, I'll tell you.

• 1:21:04Speaker 04

  You planned this with him, okay? You didn't get locked in the bathroom, okay? I'm not stupid. First of all, the lock's on this side, so you can't get locked in here. Okay, you went in there because you brought that knife into the picture. You brought the idea into the picture.

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  I didn't bring the idea.

• 1:21:22Speaker 04

  You did bring it into... You brought the whole thing and the idea.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:21:26Speaker 04

  And he did it for you.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:21:29Speaker 04

  He did, okay? So the lies, they're done. I'm not sitting here all night long.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  No, I won't give you... I won't give you a lie. I did not think of this. I know that... Um, he has, he has a, a evil side and he did wanna do it.

• 1:21:50Speaker 04

  Okay, I understand that, I understand that.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  He, he wanted to get rid of my mom.

• 1:21:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, or you.

• 1:21:57Speaker 02

  Yes, for me.

• 1:21:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, because you asked him to.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  He wanted to.

• 1:22:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, because you asked him to. Plain and simple.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  We.

• 1:22:04Speaker 04

  Gypsy, we're not playing this game, okay?

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:22:07Speaker 04

  You asked him to, that's why he did it, okay? Plain and simple, we're not playing this game. I'm not gonna spend all my night long listening to your lies anymore. You told me the truth on some things, but you left a lot of stuff out. Left a lot of stuff out, so we're not playing this game, okay? He's already told me everything. Everything.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  We're supposed to try and.

• 1:22:28Speaker 04

  The knife was mailed, you guys mailed it here, okay? We know where the knife's at, so the gig's up. You're done. It's up, you're done.

• 1:22:40Speaker 04

  You're done. You hated your mom.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  I did not hate my mom. I did not hate my mom. I loved my mom and he.

• 1:22:49Speaker 04

  You would've never done this to your mom.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  He needs to tell, tell you that I honestly, I've been having horror when I didn't want to do it. And he said that he would commit suicide if we didn't. Did he tell you that?

• 1:23:03Speaker 04

  Yep. Yep.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  I, I said that it was a bad thought that I was thinking and yeah, I don't think that we should be doing this.

• 1:23:13Speaker 04

  A lot of people think about stuff, but when you act, that's when you cross the line. And that's what you've done. You acted upon it and he acted upon it, so, okay? We're done.

• 1:23:23Speaker 04

  You're, obviously you can keep telling me lies, so I'm not gonna say anything about it.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  I'm not sure.

• 1:23:27Speaker 04

  All right, now you're gonna be booked in for, later on down the line, you're gonna be booked in for probably murder, okay? As long as, and with him as well, okay?

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  I didn't murder my mom, sir.

• 1:23:39Speaker 04

  Listen to me, listen to me. You did, because you're behind it. You pulled all the strings on it.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:23:45Speaker 04

  And you're behind it. Listen, Gypsy, I'm not gonna sit and argue with you about it, okay?

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Only when it was coming at me.

• 1:23:51Speaker 04

  No, that's not all you wanted. There's a lot more to this whole story that you're leaving out. I'm not gonna play the sympathetic game. I'm not like that, okay? I can see right through it, okay?

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  Please, I'm not able to be in jail. I have a lot of medical needs.

• 1:24:07Speaker 04

  I understand that, and they'll get taken care of, okay? So, so tight.

• 1:24:13Derrick Levasseur?

  So, what I take from this, and again, it's an incredible, incredible job by this detective, but more than likely, he felt this way the entire time. He kept it in check for the first part of the interview.

• 1:24:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause he didn't have everything, yeah.

• 1:24:29Derrick Levasseur?

  He didn't have everything. He takes it, he brings it over the Nicholas, they compare notes. Again, he probably felt this way from the, from the start, but he kept it in check. He played ball with her, he became her friend, he, he was empathetic to her situation. And as soon as he got what he needed, he dropped the hammer on her. And this is the other side of it, saying, you know what? I got you. This is the same guy.

• 1:24:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:53Derrick Levasseur?

  This is the different side to him.

• 1:24:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's like, "I'm done with your lies, lady."

• 1:24:57Derrick Levasseur?

  This is him pulling off the mask and saying, "No more Mr. Nice Guy. I don't need to hear anything else. You were pulling the strings."

• 1:25:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:05Derrick Levasseur?

  He, you and him are going down for murder one, and that's it.

• 1:25:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that, and, and you see that in desperation, "Sir, I have medical problems. I can't be in jail." Well, you have medical problems when it suits you.

• 1:25:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, we'll, we'll make sure those get taken care of.

• 1:25:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I liked that part. He's like, "Don't worry. You will get the best care." But it's like, you don't have medical problems and your mom is abusing you and pretending you did, or you do have medical problems and you're, you're using that to try to get some special treatment.

• 1:25:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna, I wanna also say something else that's not specific to this interview, that's surprising to me, and I really want everyone else to weigh in down in the comments below about this, because maybe I'm off, maybe I'm wrong, but everything that I've seen from Gypsy and heard about her, I expected to be this, to be a much more uneven match as far as the back and forth of this interrogation.

• 1:25:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:57Derrick Levasseur?

  My personal opinion, she seems pretty sharp to me.

• 1:26:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know.

• 1:26:01Derrick Levasseur?

  She seems, she's quick thinking, she's rebutting things, she's... There's doesn't seem to, again, I'm not saying they're the same.

• 1:26:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  She keeps it pretty solid, like, yeah.

• 1:26:10Derrick Levasseur?

  She's, she's a lot more on the ball than I expected because I thought I could maybe push back and say, you can tell, she's not even comprehending half the things he's saying. That doesn't, that's not how it looks to me. But tell us in the comments, what do you think? Pause it right here. Maybe I'm getting this wrong. What's your, what's your impression of Gypsy during this entire interview? Not what she's saying, but just the way she's responding. She appears to be completely aware of what he's saying, what he's saying. She picks up on the different intonations of his voice. She could tell where she's losing him.

• 1:26:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, so now we're going to move on to Nicholas, go to John's police interview. And right from the start, like you said, oh, you, you can tell that Gypsy's kind of picking up on everything. I don't believe that Nick is, right from the start, when the detective's going through his Miranda rights, you can tell, he doesn't really know what's going on. He certainly doesn't understand the gravity of the situation and he's approaching it in a very, very childlike way. So Detective Maholi, who interviewed him, she's even talking to him as if he's someone much younger than his actual age, which is 26.

• 1:27:13Speaker 05

  You must understand your rights. If you understand that, then your initials right there. We'll go through each one of them together.

• 1:27:19Speaker 06

  Okay, well, this, well, I have a question.

• 1:27:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25Speaker 06

  If you may ask, is that okay if I put it right there after I read them all to me?

• 1:27:30Speaker 05

  We have to do them one at a time.

• 1:27:31Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27:32Speaker 05

  Okay, that's just so I can make sure you understand each of them.

• 1:27:35Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:27:36Speaker 05

  Just your initials, yeah, just like that. Okay, the next one is, you have the right to remain silent.

• 1:27:46Speaker 05

  Anything you say can be used against you in court.

• 1:27:49Speaker 06

  That's a different than on TV.

• 1:27:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it's in reference to something she had first said when she came in the room, when she said, I'm going to go through your Miranda rights with you and, and do you know what that is? And he's like, no. And she's like, well, you've probably seen it on TV. And so now he's referring to that. He's like, that's a little different than what I've seen on TV, you know, being on, on, actually on this end of the table. And for about five minutes, for about five minutes, Nick gives the same narrative that he and Gypsy had agreed on. Gypsy got kicked out of the house. He knew she was alone, wandering the streets. So he took a bus to Springfield to get her and bring her back to his house. Now Detective Maholy, she stops him in his tracks. She says, "Listen, I know you're lying. Gypsy's told us everything." At this time, when she said that, it was a lie. Because as we know, Gypsy took forever to come clean.

• 1:28:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  She had not yet told the truth, but Nick didn't know that. And unlike Gypsy, he immediately, immediately owned up to what he had done. But before we get into that, let's have our last break.

• 1:28:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back, so we're gonna play that clip for you now.

• 1:28:54Speaker 05

  I guess she's your girlfriend, just to be sure.

• 1:28:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, she is, yeah.

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  And you love her?

• 1:28:58Speaker 06

  Oh, do I ever.

• 1:28:59Speaker 05

  You love her a lot?

• 1:29:00Speaker 06

  I was bummed, I was waiting for this moment to where I can talk to you.

• 1:29:04Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:29:04Speaker 06

  Because I was so worried about her.

• 1:29:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um, I think she loves you too.

• 1:29:11Speaker 05

  You know, we spoke to her and, for a long time. And I'm kind of thinking, maybe she loves you a little more than you love her. Because you're sitting here telling me things that I know aren't true. And then she's sitting here telling me things that are true. And if you really love her, I don't think you would want her in that situation. Okay? The situation that she's in right now. Um, and so you, we're gonna go down two paths here, okay? And that is, is you're gonna have to be honest with me.

• 1:29:41Speaker 06

  Alright.

• 1:29:41Speaker 05

  Because if you love her, if you love Gypsy, then you're not gonna let Gypsy get in trouble without you being there to help her. Okay?

• 1:29:50Speaker 06

  I understand.

• 1:29:51Speaker 05

  And so what you need to know is that Gypsy told us everything.

• 1:29:55Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:29:55Speaker 05

  We didn't talk to Gypsy all this time and not get everything.

• 1:29:59Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:29:59Speaker 05

  That's what we do.

• 1:30:01Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:30:01Speaker 05

  And so, Nick, I want you to do the honorable thing, okay?

• 1:30:07Speaker 06

  Alright.

• 1:30:07Speaker 05

  For, for Gypsy and for your family. Okay? Because we know what happened. And I want to give you the opportunity to start over and to tell the truth. Okay? And the truth is, is not what you've told me.

• 1:30:23Speaker 06

  How much have I told you to believe is the truth?

• 1:30:26Speaker 05

  Um, I believe the part that you got on a bus and went to Springfield.

• 1:30:30Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:30:30Speaker 05

  I believe that's true.

• 1:30:31Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:30:32Speaker 05

  Um, that you ordered food to eat, I believe that's true.

• 1:30:36Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:30:36Speaker 05

  Um...

• 1:30:39Speaker 05

  I believe that it's true that at some point Gypsy came back to with you to the motel. I believe that's true.

• 1:30:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 05

  I believe Gypsy got on a bus and came here with you. I believe that's true.

• 1:30:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Speaker 05

  That's all I believe.

• 1:30:51Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:30:52Speaker 05

  Okay, because you missed a lot in there. And I understand that you missed a lot because you're probably, you don't know what to say because you don't know what Gypsy said. I understand that. But I'll tell you right now, Gypsy did tell me everything. She told us everything. She told us about you coming there, that she told us what happened to mom. She told us about your guys' relationship. She told us about the cleanup. She told us about all of that.

• 1:31:15Speaker 06

  Um.

• 1:31:16Speaker 05

  Okay?

• 1:31:16Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:31:17Speaker 05

  So, do you want to, um, do the right thing by Gypsy if you love her?

• 1:31:23Speaker 06

  Well, the truth is I worship her, so.

• 1:31:25Speaker 05

  I know you do.

• 1:31:26Speaker 06

  There's no way, there's no way I wouldn't do it or I would thank her.

• 1:31:29Speaker 05

  I know you do. I believe you do. But this is the point where you're going to prove whether you do or not, okay? You mean you talk.

• 1:31:36Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:31:36Speaker 05

  Okay? Because it's not fair, it's not fair to Gypsy for her to be honest and you to, you to lie. Okay?

• 1:31:45Speaker 06

  Um.

• 1:31:46Speaker 05

  So, what I want to know is, is, um, can you tell me this first?

• 1:31:51Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:31:52Speaker 05

  Did Gypsy know that you were going to kill her mother?

• 1:31:55Speaker 06

  Um, honestly, she asked me to.

• 1:32:02Speaker 05

  Okay. So, so Gypsy knew you were going to do it because Gypsy asked you to?

• 1:32:07Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:32:08Speaker 05

  Why did she ask you to do that?

• 1:32:10Speaker 06

  Because she thought it was her only way to be with me.

• 1:32:12Speaker 05

  Okay. She felt like if, if you killed the mom, then that's the only way she could be with you.

• 1:32:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:32:19Speaker 05

  Do you know the mom's name?

• 1:32:21Speaker 06

  I don't know her real name. All I know is it goes by Dee Dee.

• 1:32:24Speaker 05

  Dee Dee, okay. So, um, has, has Gypsy asked you to kill anyone else?

• 1:32:31Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:32:31Speaker 05

  Okay, she just wants you to kill her mom?

• 1:32:33Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:32:33Speaker 05

  Okay. And how did Gypsy ask you to do that? Did she ask you to do that in a text message, on a Facebook, or in person, or something different?

• 1:32:42Speaker 06

  Well, it was more than once. I mean, you had, uh, uh, Facebook, um, we, we talked about it on there, we were talking about it even on Texas.

• 1:32:54Speaker 05

  Okay. And what, what kind of things would Gypsy tell you that she wanted you to do?

• 1:32:59Speaker 06

  Uh, she wanted, uh, the thing is, is that I know she does her mom a lot. I know she does.

• 1:33:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Speaker 06

  Uh. I had to was I was up here with her uh and she felt guilty about the whole situation. I had to make sure she was safe. And meaning like I had to make sure she felt like she could be comforted by.

• 1:33:19Speaker 05

  By you, okay.

• 1:33:20Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:33:21Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:33:21Speaker 06

  Because I I mean, the truth is, okay, I will admit it. I did actually.

• 1:33:28Speaker 06

  Stay up with her, I will admit it.

• 1:33:30Speaker 05

  I know, okay.

• 1:33:31Speaker 06

  I the only reason I did it is because I did it for me and her is the real reason I did. I would have never did it if it was not for me and her.

• 1:33:37Speaker 05

  Okay. So you wouldn't have done it if somebody else would have asked?

• 1:33:41Speaker 06

  No, there's no way I would have did it for anyone else.

• 1:33:43Speaker 05

  Okay, so you just.

• 1:33:44Speaker 06

  I truly do worship her to the point that's not something I want to do for her.

• 1:33:47Speaker 05

  Okay, okay, well, I think you've proved that, right?

• 1:33:50Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:33:51Speaker 05

  I think that you've proved that, that you you do what she asked you to do, if that's the case, if she did ask you.

• 1:33:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, she did ask me.

• 1:33:58Speaker 05

  Okay, and she asked you more than once?

• 1:34:00Speaker 06

  Um.

• 1:34:00Speaker 05

  Did she ask you while you were here?

• 1:34:02Speaker 06

  She asked me more than once.

• 1:34:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so a lot of what he's saying in that clip is things that we know, right? Uh but here's what I take away from it, from a comparison point of view. What I just said about Gypsy. Surprisingly, a lot sharper and a lot quicker and a lot more protected and measured in her responses.

• 1:34:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cal- calculated, you might say.

• 1:34:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Calculated, measured, you use whatever word you want.

• 1:34:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Calculated.

• 1:34:28Derrick Levasseur?

  We don't see that here. This is not a fair fight, okay? We know that clinically. Nicholas has a low IQ, that's the, I think, again, it was like eighty-two. He's diarrhea of the mouth, he's volunteering information that she's not even asking about.

• 1:34:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  For it.

• 1:34:45Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm trying to get at, as far as if you're gonna compare it to someone. When you're thinking about, are they equal? Is one more responsible than the other as far as this actual crime, the murder, right? What's your take on it? And I'm not talking to you, Stephanie, I'm talking to you guys out there.

• 1:35:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course you're not talking to me.

• 1:35:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, of course I'm not asking you, I'm not asking you. Out there, am I wrong? Forget the detective perspective, right? From a just a regular person, or your part-time detective, whatever you are, watching these two interviews, do you view them equal? Do you see them as the same people? I'll leave it at that. You, you, you tell us. But that's my, that's my general observation from that first clip. This is someone, it's not a fair fight. This detective doesn't have to do any type of work. This is gonna be a very easy interrogation.

• 1:35:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  She even seems surprised sometimes.

• 1:35:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you did that. You proved that.

• 1:35:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I'm not gonna lie to you. I stabbed her.

• 1:35:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. He's like, I

• 1:35:43Derrick Levasseur?

  You didn't even ask.

• 1:35:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  I did do it. I did do it. Yeah. But, and she's like, I, I know.

• 1:35:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I will say, and we'll never know for certain unless we got to ask them. It does appear to me that it might not have been the same exact time. It's almost like maybe that interview with Gypsy happened right before this.

• 1:36:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you can hear him say, she said, why did you do it? Well, it was, it was the only way we could be together.

• 1:36:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Never mentions, never mentions that I had to get Gypsy out of there.

• 1:36:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was not safe. She was in danger.

• 1:36:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Not one time.

• 1:36:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not one time.

• 1:36:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Not one time. And this is a guy, ask yourself this, considering everything I just said, do you think he's telling the truth?

• 1:36:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I mean, on top of that, he's caught for murder now. Okay? So if he was gonna do anything, that would have been the excuse to use. That would have been it. Well, like, yes, I understand I did that, but like, you have to also understand the person I loved was in danger, and I didn't know what else to do.

• 1:36:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Never.

• 1:36:37Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm with you.

• 1:36:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I kind of get the impression that it's like, Gypsy's almost this cult leader, and Nick does whatever. Even when the police officer's like, hey, you have to tell the truth. That's what's best for Gypsy. And he's like, oh, wait, telling the truth is what's best for Gypsy? Here's all the truth you can handle. I've got it all for you. If that's what's best for her, I've got it. And so then, Nick starts talking about how Gypsy herself had been wanting to do this for a while, kill her mother. She was going to do it herself, and she'd even looked up ways that it could be done, painlessly, of course, because at the end of the day, she loved her mother, and she didn't want her death to be painful or long and drawn out. She wanted it to be quick and painless.

• 1:37:18Speaker 06

  At first, she wanted, uh, if, because the thing was, is that she wanted to do it herself, which is to, uh, what's the word?

• 1:37:30Speaker 06

  That not cautious, it's uh. I guess scared is the word I'm looking for.

• 1:37:35Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:37:35Speaker 06

  Didn't wanna actually do it.

• 1:37:36Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:37:37Speaker 06

  Because she couldn't live with it, so doing it.

• 1:37:40Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:37:40Speaker 06

  And um. As for um. Me, I. Honestly, to this day, I still feel guilty about it.

• 1:37:49Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:37:50Speaker 06

  I do, I do.

• 1:37:51Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:37:51Speaker 06

  Because I. I didn't, I I learned so much about her mom after she. Told me and more and more about it after actually being able to live with her for a while.

• 1:38:00Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:38:01Speaker 06

  I actually realized how good of a mom she was.

• 1:38:04Speaker 05

  Okay, so it kinda makes you feel a little guilty.

• 1:38:06Speaker 06

  No, no, no, I feel a lot more guilty than that.

• 1:38:09Speaker 05

  Okay, okay, so Gypsy's telling you about her mom.

• 1:38:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:38:12Speaker 05

  And then.

• 1:38:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, how she is and and uh her accomplishments and all, yeah.

• 1:38:16Speaker 05

  Okay. Okay, um, so when you came here to Springfield, that was your purpose to come here so that way you could do that for Gypsy?

• 1:38:25Speaker 06

  Yes, cuz I wanted to be with her and I wanted.

• 1:38:28Speaker 05

  So did Gypsy know you was coming here then to go ahead and kill Dee?

• 1:38:31Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:38:32Speaker 05

  Okay, why did you guys decide that you would stab her instead of shooting her with a gun? Or poisoning her or doing beating her with a bat like? Why did you guys decide stabbing would be what you did to kill her?

• 1:38:44Speaker 06

  Um.

• 1:38:47Speaker 06

  Honestly, uh, the thing is, is we really wouldn't have known how to poison her, honestly, we wouldn't have known how to.

• 1:38:54Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:38:55Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, she looked up multiple times of how to do it, how to do it because she wanted to find the quickest way to do it.

• 1:39:02Speaker 05

  Okay, so like she looked up on the internet, like how to kill her mom?

• 1:39:05Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:39:05Speaker 05

  Okay, and so she was looking for the easiest way to do it?

• 1:39:09Speaker 06

  Yes, the best way she would be in less pain, she wanted her mom's death to be quick.

• 1:39:13Speaker 05

  Okay, okay, so you wouldn't have known how to do the poisoning and so um. Again, why did we choose the knife, like why?

• 1:39:21Speaker 06

  Reason why we chose the knife is because I guess she thought that. It'd be quicker if she bled out quickly.

• 1:39:28Speaker 05

  Okay, now did she tell you that or is that something you think she thought?

• 1:39:32Speaker 06

  Most likely, that's what I would think she would.

• 1:39:34Speaker 05

  Okay, but she didn't tell you to stab her because she'd bleed out quickly?

• 1:39:37Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:39:38Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:39:38Speaker 06

  That's what I figured she would think because. It makes sense. More holes, faster they go away and the faster they are at peace.

• 1:39:47Speaker 05

  Okay, so the more holes you put in into the body?

• 1:39:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:39:51Speaker 05

  Is that what I'm understanding?

• 1:39:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:39:52Speaker 05

  Okay, so. So that's why you chose to stab her?

• 1:39:57Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:39:58Speaker 05

  Okay. And so, how did you get the knife? Like, where'd the knife come from? Did you bring it with you from here?

• 1:40:04Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:40:04Speaker 05

  Okay. Did you buy it somewhere?

• 1:40:06Speaker 06

  She bought it for me.

• 1:40:07Speaker 05

  Who bought it for you?

• 1:40:08Speaker 06

  Uh, Gypsy.

• 1:40:10Speaker 05

  So when you got, so you didn't bring a knife from here?

• 1:40:12Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:40:13Speaker 05

  So when you got here, she had a knife?

• 1:40:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:40:16Speaker 05

  So did she know you was gonna stab her?

• 1:40:18Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:40:19Speaker 05

  Okay. Okay. Have you ever stabbed anybody before this?

• 1:40:23Speaker 06

  No. That's the reason why, uh, this was the very, only one person I would ever do this for.

• 1:40:29Speaker 05

  Okay. Only person you do it for is Gypsy? This is the first time you ever stabbed anybody?

• 1:40:32Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:40:33Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:40:33Derrick Levasseur?

  My one takeaway from that clip, we'll begin being a little redundant here. Not only did Gypsy not talk negatively about DeeDee, saying that she was gonna kill her, hurt her, abuse her, whatever, she was actually talking highly about DeeDee to the point where it made Nicholas Goda John feel bad about what happened because of all her quote-unquote accomplishments. That's what, that's what Gypsy was relaying to Nicholas. Completely the opposite of what you would expect if this woman was such a horrible person.

• 1:41:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 1:41:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, I wanna say this. I'm not saying DeeDee was a hero. I think I've established that's not what I think. But clearly, this quote-unquote victim of DeeDee's abuse thought pretty highly of her and relayed that to Nicholas Goda John.

• 1:41:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, even when she's talking to the police and even the, the first officer, she's like, "Oh, my mom and I did this, my mom and I did that." Like, she's talking about all these good memories. And yet, Nick said, like, "I felt bad. I realized what a good mother she was afterwards." So Gypsy's over here, like, "I'm really sad we had to do this. My mom was such a good mom. She was so good to me. We were best friends." That's weird. Considering the narrative that that's being fed to us now.

• 1:41:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Nicholas also talks about he and Gypsy had sex in her bed afterwards, which he says was very consensual. Right? So Gypsy's like, he raped me. Um, but then even after he raped her in the bed, she went home with him and he was like, I'm going to get married. We're going to get married. She's like, that made me happy. Right? So clearly, in my opinion, and I'm not, I'm not able to say for sure whether it was a rape or not. But in my opinion, Gypsy's literally telling Nick in the text messages, like, oh, my private parts are all shaved.

• 1:42:18Derrick Levasseur?

  She shaved herself before.

• 1:42:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm getting, I'm going to be wearing a nightgown, a sexy nightgown. I'm ready for you.

• 1:42:22Derrick Levasseur?

  They talked about, yeah, they talked about.

• 1:42:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  They talked about, but now you're saying he raped you. You will lie and throw anybody under the bus as long as you get out scot-free.

• 1:42:30Derrick Levasseur?

  She hasn't told the truth about anything.

• 1:42:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  She hasn't told the truth about anything.

• 1:42:34Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 1:42:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Anything.

• 1:42:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I, I always tend to believe a victim in these allegations, but with everything we have, it's just hard for me to take her at her word.

• 1:42:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's, and that's why it's like, people are like, oh, you're victim blaming. And it's like, I don't want to. But also I don't want to paint somebody a victim who's not.

• 1:42:53Derrick Levasseur?

  But, but also

• 1:42:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Gypsy is a victim of child abuse, in my opinion. I know we don't necessarily agree on that. That is a different issue. That we've already talked about that for four episodes. Now we're talking about a murder. And we're trying to decide whether or not Gypsy was someone who was, I guess, a victim in this murder where she was forced to partake? Or was she an accomplice? That's what we're deciding here. The child abuse thing, we've, we've, we've established how we feel about it. You may feel differently. That's a separate issue.

• 1:43:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Are you talking about everybody?

• 1:43:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Everybody. Well, you know where you stand, and I think a lot of people know where they stand.

• 1:43:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I don't necessarily think that she, that there wasn't

• 1:43:38Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I get you.

• 1:43:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some form of, of abuse, but do I think she was tied to the bed, handcuffed to the table?

• 1:43:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you don't know.

• 1:43:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I don't because nobody, she never says any of this stuff until after she's charged with murder. And to me, like, anything you say after you're charged with murder, that you never said to anybody before? Ever?

• 1:43:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that. But so anyone who says we're victim blaming, that's because you are combining the two different crimes.

• 1:44:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Factitious disorder imposed by on another and murder, two different crimes.

• 1:44:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  The fact of the matter is, if she's gonna use a self-defense claim, she would have had to have felt like her life was in danger at that moment.

• 1:44:20Derrick Levasseur?

  That's my.

• 1:44:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dee Dee was sleeping. She could have walked out of the house as she had done before. This was not the only option. It wasn't even in the top 10 of options.

• 1:44:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I'm with you. We can keep going. Let's keep it rolling.

• 1:44:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so now Nicholas is gonna talk about the murder from his perspective, which is honestly the only perspective that matters at this point because he is the one that did it.

• 1:44:40Derrick Levasseur?

  He's an open book.

• 1:44:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:41Derrick Levasseur?

  And he doesn't.

• 1:44:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's gonna tell you exactly how it went down, exactly.

• 1:44:44Speaker 05

  So when you're stabbing Dee, where is she at?

• 1:44:48Speaker 06

  She's on her stomach.

• 1:44:50Speaker 05

  On her stomach where? On the floor, in the bathtub, or somewhere different?

• 1:44:53Speaker 06

  She was on the bed, her bed.

• 1:44:56Speaker 05

  Her bed, in her, in her bedroom?

• 1:44:58Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:44:58Speaker 05

  Okay. So was she sleeping on her stomach, or just laying there watching TV, or?

• 1:45:03Speaker 06

  Sleeping on her stomach.

• 1:45:04Speaker 05

  Okay, so she's laying in her bed, sleeping on her stomach, because she covered up with covers, or uncovered, or?

• 1:45:09Speaker 06

  Um, it, actually, when I did it, it seemed like, um, she had her, it was almost like a nightgown on, it seemed like. And, uh, she barely even was covered at all.

• 1:45:24Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:45:25Speaker 06

  So, it was easy access to her body.

• 1:45:28Speaker 05

  Okay, so she wasn't have a, didn't have a bunch of covers on her, it made it a lot easier, something like that, okay. And, um, so, when she's laying there, where's the first place you decided to stab her?

• 1:45:41Speaker 06

  And, um, I just was in the random spot in the back.

• 1:45:45Speaker 05

  In the back, just random?

• 1:45:46Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:45:46Speaker 05

  Do you know how many times you stabbed her?

• 1:45:49Speaker 06

  Uh, four.

• 1:45:51Speaker 05

  You stabbed her four?

• 1:45:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, four times.

• 1:45:53Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:45:53Speaker 06

  The fourth one, I, I felt it go into, I think it might have been her lungs.

• 1:45:57Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:45:57Speaker 06

  Because it was harder to get out.

• 1:45:59Speaker 05

  Okay. Did it take one hand to get it out, two hands?

• 1:46:03Speaker 06

  Uh, I had to yank it out.

• 1:46:05Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:46:05Speaker 06

  With one hand.

• 1:46:06Speaker 05

  Okay, so it did, so the others came out easy, but this one, that one kinda came out harder?

• 1:46:11Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:46:12Speaker 05

  Okay, and so, um, you only stabbed her four times, are you sure about that?

• 1:46:18Speaker 06

  Well, as, as in stabbing, I stabbed her four times.

• 1:46:20Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:46:21Speaker 06

  But I did actually cut her one other time besides that.

• 1:46:23Speaker 05

  Okay, where'd you cut her at?

• 1:46:24Speaker 06

  On the back of her neck.

• 1:46:25Speaker 05

  Okay. Did she scream, or holler, or?

• 1:46:29Speaker 06

  Yes, she did.

• 1:46:30Speaker 05

  What was she saying?

• 1:46:33Speaker 06

  First she said help and then she didn't know, she didn't recognize who I was.

• 1:46:37Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:46:38Speaker 06

  Who are you and then?

• 1:46:39Speaker 05

  She said, who are you?

• 1:46:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Speaker 05

  Okay, and she didn't recognize who you are, she says help and then what does she say?

• 1:46:44Speaker 06

  Then she called up for Gypsy, but Gypsy didn't do anything.

• 1:46:47Speaker 05

  Okay, she hollered for Gypsy?

• 1:46:50Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:46:50Speaker 05

  And did she holler for Gypsy, once, twice, five times?

• 1:46:54Speaker 06

  Three times.

• 1:46:54Speaker 05

  Three times, and what was she saying? Can you tell me how she said it?

• 1:46:58Speaker 06

  Um, she pretty much yelped it.

• 1:47:00Speaker 05

  Yelped it?

• 1:47:01Speaker 06

  Yes, like.

• 1:47:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm saying. Okay.

• 1:47:04Speaker 06

  Yes, she was loud.

• 1:47:04Speaker 05

  And what did you do when she did that?

• 1:47:07Speaker 06

  Uh, it didn't stop me from keeping on gnawing.

• 1:47:11Speaker 05

  Okay, you just kept stabbing her?

• 1:47:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Speaker 05

  Okay, did you try to get Gypsy to come in and stab her?

• 1:47:16Speaker 06

  No, I would have never done that.

• 1:47:18Speaker 05

  Okay, um, so when you say four actual stabs, so those are the ones that went in deeper?

• 1:47:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:47:25Speaker 05

  Was there some little ones?

• 1:47:26Speaker 06

  There might have been, because I, the truth is, I counted the ones that went in deep, I didn't count any other, there's any other ones.

• 1:47:33Speaker 05

  Okay, so if there's any other ones, you just didn't count those because they didn't go in as deep?

• 1:47:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38Speaker 05

  Okay, but you know that four of them went in deep?

• 1:47:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Speaker 05

  Okay, do you know where those four deep ones were?

• 1:47:45Speaker 06

  Uh.

• 1:47:46Speaker 05

  Are you counting the one in the back of the neck or not in that four?

• 1:47:49Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:47:49Speaker 05

  Okay, so this, the back of the neck would be something different?

• 1:47:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's completely separate.

• 1:47:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow, really tough to hear, and I believe every word he said, and again, to think that she was yelling out for the person who was responsible for her murder, just, wow. I don't care how many times you hear that, and I've heard it a lot over the years, things like that, never gets easy.

• 1:48:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and that's why I'm saying, like, I know everybody mourns differently, and everybody goes through and processes emotions differently, especially grief. But to know that Gypsy was just kind of going about her life, like, going to Nick's house, telling his mom she's gonna get a job and help cook and clean, she's chatting with the police officer about Harry Potter. I don't know if I, like, hearing my mother scream for me as she was being murdered, hearing that in my head, I feel like that's all I would hear for a long time. Like, I wouldn't be able to sleep, I wouldn't be able to eat. I don't know if I could function properly enough to, to put a mask on for the world that everything was fine. It would take a little while before I'd be able to do that.

• 1:48:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, it's just, it seems kind of like she doesn't care that her mother's dead. She's kind of happy about it. Like, this is the ultimate outcome that she wanted, and she got what she wanted.

• 1:49:05Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm with you. I think she's probably more upset that she got caught than the fact that it happened.

• 1:49:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. So, Nick also talks about how they went back to the hotel, they mailed the knife to his house, he said Gypsy filled out the shipping information on the box because he didn't have good handwriting. And this will also give you an indication of how not, um, not a criminal mastermind, Nicholas Goodejohn is, because he's asked, like, "Where are the clothes that you were wearing when you committed the murder?" And Nick kind of chuckles a little bit, and he's like, "Huh, they're still in my duffel bag, I haven't even washed them yet." You know, it's been days. He murders somebody, and the clothes that he used to commit the murder, he hasn't even washed yet, he didn't try to get rid of them, throw them away, burn them, they're just in his duffel bag, you know? Which I get. All right, when I come back from a trip, my suitcase sits there for a good two weeks before I unpack it. But, these are your murder clothes.

• 1:49:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, um, had, had Gypsy not mailed the knife back to his house, which they found in his closet at his, at his home, that probably would have been in his duffel bag too. So, he's just not a criminal mastermind, this is not his forte. So, Nick also talks to Detective Maholy about his evil side, Victor, and, um, it's interesting because she kind of pushes back, and, and she's like, "But isn't Victor, like, a part of you?" And he's like, "Yeah, I would, I would agree with you, he's a part of me." She's like, "So, who made the decision to even come to Springfield and do this, you know? That was you, not Victor." And he's like, "Yeah, but, you know, Victor, like, influences me." And Gypsy also has, like, her evil side, Ruby, and Detective Maholy's like...

• 1:50:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Have you been diagnosed with this? And he's like, I probably should be because it's been happening for a while. You know, so he's once again trying to distance himself from the murder. Try, he's trying to distance himself from Victor, the person who committed the murder. Now, uh, they, they go on and on about that a little bit. Nick also talks about how he really didn't do a lot of cleaning afterwards. The gypsy took those like sanitary wipes, like Clorox wipes and was cleaning. She was trying to clean anywhere that she thought his fingerprints could be. And he said, well, I didn't want to do any cleaning because I didn't want to like make more work for her by putting fingerprints other places. So I kind of just let her do that. So let's hear some final words from Nicholas Go To John before we give our final thoughts.

• 1:51:20Speaker 05

  Have you ever done anything like this before?

• 1:51:21Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:51:22Speaker 05

  Okay. Have you ever killed anyone else?

• 1:51:25Speaker 06

  Uh, no.

• 1:51:26Speaker 05

  Are you sure?

• 1:51:27Speaker 06

  Uh, no, I haven't.

• 1:51:29Speaker 05

  Are you positive?

• 1:51:30Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:51:31Speaker 05

  Have you thought about killing someone?

• 1:51:33Speaker 06

  Well, I'm gonna have the thoughts go in my head, but I've never actually done it until the, it happened to me.

• 1:51:39Speaker 05

  Okay. Do you think you'll ever kill anyone else?

• 1:51:42Speaker 06

  Um, I can't see it happening.

• 1:51:44Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:51:45Speaker 06

  The reason why at first, I just want to fill this out.

• 1:51:48Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:51:48Speaker 06

  The reason why at first I was lying is because I thought me and her agreed on a lie story.

• 1:51:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, most people do agree on the lie story.

• 1:51:56Speaker 06

  And that's the reason why I went with it.

• 1:51:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:51:59Speaker 06

  And then I learned that she told everything, so I just let it all out.

• 1:52:05Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:52:06Speaker 06

  And that's part of the reason why I, I wasn't sure she was gonna tell it the right way or not. Because I was ready to tell it the right way, but I just didn't know she did.

• 1:52:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:52:15Speaker 06

  Because I'm trying to follow along with the full thing, whether it's the truth or not the truth. It, I just, I want to make sure that I get the full story straight with what, what she says too, so.

• 1:52:25Speaker 05

  Okay. Do you think you've done that so far?

• 1:52:28Speaker 06

  I only hope I did because I've told only nothing but the truth.

• 1:52:32Speaker 05

  Okay. If you could go back and change something, what would you do?

• 1:52:36Speaker 06

  Uh, I would have, uh, thing is is.

• 1:52:43Speaker 06

  This is something I, me and Gypsy have talked about at least a at least a hundred times since me and her been able to live together these days and she's been able to be with me. Um.

• 1:52:54Speaker 06

  I kept on, I was going back and I kept on asking her. This is the question I kept on asking her before. I asked her if she was, I was the one who actually asked her before we even did this killing that happened.

• 1:53:07Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 1:53:07Speaker 06

  I was the one actually asked her, are you sure you want me to do this?

• 1:53:11Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:53:11Speaker 06

  And then she said yes. And after she said yes. Uh, that's the rest of the story you already know.

• 1:53:18Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:53:18Speaker 06

  But, um. The question I kept on asking her besides that. Uh. I asked her, are you willing to risk everything to have everything you ever want?

• 1:53:30Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:53:30Speaker 06

  And. Uh. That's part of the reason why she, uh, risked, uh, her old life to have one with me.

• 1:53:38Speaker 05

  Okay, I see what you're saying. You didn't really answer my question. If you could go back and change any one thing about what has happened, what would you change?

• 1:53:47Speaker 06

  Uh, how this happened?

• 1:53:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:53:49Speaker 06

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:53:50Speaker 05

  Would you change anything?

• 1:53:54Speaker 06

  Well, the thing is, is I would rather not kill Dee Dee the truth.

• 1:54:02Speaker 06

  Cause that's the part that's like the main thing I regret the most, so the entire thing.

• 1:54:07Speaker 05

  Okay. Okay, sometimes what I like to do is when people are cooperative and they tell the truth and they tell their story. Uh, I like to offer them the opportunity to write an apology letter. Tell me, tell me now, if you had to apologize to someone for what has happened, who would you apologize to?

• 1:54:26Speaker 06

  The thing is, I do feel bad for, uh, Gypsy's family. I really do feel bad for them. I do feel bad for Gypsy. Heck, I feel bad for all Gypsy's friends, I.

• 1:54:38Speaker 06

  So many people that

• 1:54:39Speaker 05

  So you would apologize to all of them people?

• 1:54:42Speaker 06

  I'd yeah, I'd try to apologize as much as I could.

• 1:54:45Speaker 05

  Okay, alright.

• 1:54:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I thought it was interesting that he said he had talked to Gypsy and he was basically telling her, "Listen, are you willing to sacrifice your old life for the life you want?" And it kind of made it seem like, "I know your old life isn't that bad, but you know, a life with me would be better. Are you willing to end this life? Are you willing to to throw it all to the wind if it means that we can be together?" And Gypsy was like, "Yeah, once again, no talk about how her life was so horrible. She was being abused. She was in danger. Her mother was gonna kill her." It's kind of like, "Yeah, this is your life and it's fine, but I can give you a better one. Are you willing to to sacrifice everything you've had before for your future?"

• 1:55:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. Alright, we ready for the final thoughts?

• 1:55:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, I'm gonna make mine straight to the point. I was writing notes this entire time. Here's my takeaway based on not only the DMs and the messages from last episode, but also the interrogation footage that we watched tonight. And my opinion on the mental capacities of both participants, Nicholas and Gypsy. This is, I'm not a professional in this, but I feel like I can call balls and strikes and most of us can just by watching these interviews. So here's my takeaway. First off, this does not appear to be a self-defense case where Gypsy was in fear of her life and whether it was immediate or relatively immediate where she, kind of like a Menendez situation, where they had to do this in order to protect Gypsy.

• 1:56:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, this does not appear to be the case at all. It wasn't mentioned even once during this interview. And according to Nicholas, Gypsy spoke very highly of Dee Dee before, during, and after. Maybe she threw in some comments here and there, but overall, it was nothing but high praise for Gypsy. So, my opinion on Gypsy, not only was she a willing participant in this murder, she was the mastermind, okay? And as far as Nicholas is concerned...

• 1:56:43Derrick Levasseur?

  He, in my opinion, was not an equal partner in the planning. Rather, he was an instrument in the murder plot constructed by Gypsy. And as far as his involvement, if not for the manipulation and coercion on a highly impressionable person, Nicholas never kills DeeDee. Doesn't happen. That being said, Nicholas is a danger to society. The fact that he can be manipulated into doing something like this for another person, for anybody, for that matter, for even for himself. He's a threat. He's a threat because if she can do it, anybody can.

• 1:57:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, not according to him, but yes, I completely agree with you. Anybody who handled him in the same way that she handled him would have gotten the same result.

• 1:57:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. Exactly. And so knowing all that, he is, he is a danger.

• 1:57:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, that, that goes to the question, who's, who's worse? What's worse? What's more dangerous? The gun or the person holding the gun?

• 1:57:45Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I think, I think they're both very dangerous, but here's the problem.

• 1:57:51Derrick Levasseur?

  We know that Nicholas is still in prison and has no chance of getting out currently. And Gypsy's out and that's a problem. So I know we still got more to go. I don't want to go too far into the woods because we're going to talk about more and cover it in our final episode, but this, this, that's my takeaway. That's my takeaway. It's not based on anything other than what I've seen and heard with my own eyes and ears.

• 1:58:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So here's what I think. I think that Nicholas and Gypsy killed her mother so they could be together unfettered and so that they could have her money, which when you look at it, what, $4,000 or $5,000? Not a lot, but they're thinking they're, they're going to start a whole life with this money. Right?

• 1:58:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  They did that and not until it hit the media. Because when it hit the media, what was the most scandalous part of this whole story? It wasn't that this, this man and his girlfriend had killed her mother. It was, oh my God, we can't believe it. We thought this girl was 16. We thought she was in a wheelchair. What the hell's going on? How do we fall for this? And then somebody mentions Manchasm by proxy. Was this Manchasm by proxy? I think that gave Gypsy the idea to now use this as her defense. That's what I think. I don't think that even occurred to her to say or to use or to claim until she was arrested for murder and then she sees how the media is portraying

• 1:59:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  it because that happened very early on. And next episode, I'm going to tell you exactly when that first happened and when it was first brought up. And then all of a sudden, Gypsy is spinning this tale about all these horrible things that happened to her. And once again, not saying that there that some horrible things didn't happen to her. This would not be, if I could choose the childhood to have, I would not choose Gypsy's childhood. I don't think anybody would. However, I really do think that that's what that's what happened because why wouldn't you have said anything about it? I mean, she at the end, when she when he's walking out, he's like, haha, you'll get your medical care in prison, man. She's beg, borrowing and pleading. She's throwing everything at him. Nicholas said he was going to commit suicide. I need medical care. I

• 2:00:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  can't go to jail. I didn't do anything. Sir, sir, sir. She's begging him. Why at that point wouldn't you have been like, I was being abused since I could walk, since I can remember. I was being abused. She's got stories and stories for days now. But none of that happened. I think that it was a convenient scapegoat for her to use. And I'm not saying that she wasn't abused, but I don't think she was abused to the point where she's like, killing my mother is the only way out of this. And at the end of the day, that's the crux of the issue. Two wrongs do not make a right. Dee Dee being wrong doesn't make what Gypsy did to her right. And Gypsy basically pretending as if it was self-defense because

• 2:00:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  that's what's happening. This is not self-defense in any way, shape or form. She is lucky she got that deal. Because once again, they didn't need it to get Nick. We have his full confession, right? He's like, I stabbed her. Okay, you don't need Gypsy's testimony against Nick in order to put him behind bars for life. I'm not sure why they gave her such a sweet deal. I'm really not. But this was not a self-defense case and nobody can convince me it was, which leads us to the next question of if it wasn't self-defense, then she murdered her mother for personal gain, a motive of personal gain, which was to live the life she wanted without her mother impeding her from being with Nick.

• 2:01:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, well, and that and that takes us to where we're going to finish out the series, which now we are in a position where they're both arrested. They're both charged with murder at least. And this is going to be going to trial. So we're all caught up. You guys have your opinions on it. Way in down in the comments below. Let us know what you think. We're going to wrap this whole thing up with the trial. Some of you already know what happened. We've talked about it multiple times. Do you agree with our assessment? Do you disagree with our assessment? And if you do, why? So we're going to finish it out. Very compelling case that Gypsy knew a lot more than I initially thought. And I'm really struggling to understand why she was given such a sweet deal. It seems like they had Nicholas dead to rights.

• 2:02:07Derrick Levasseur?

  They didn't need her testimony. So, so why, why give her the deal? I don't get it.

• 2:02:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I also just want to say, I feel like anybody who saw her in her police interview would not have a hard time understanding why I don't believe a word that comes out of her mouth now. Because I see how seamlessly and easily she lies, how she does it as as easily as breathing. Right? And you could say her mother made her into this. Fine, that doesn't mean she's not a liar. It means she's a well-trained liar. It means that that this probably now a part of her personality. Right? An inextricable part that you can't remove.

• 2:02:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it means she's a liar. And so it's very difficult for me to believe anything she says now, especially because her story, even to this day, every time she's on a different podcast or being interviewed by a different publication, it changes. It's modified. It's slightly different. So this is why I have a hard time believing anything that Gypsy Rose says. And I don't think that anybody who watches what just went down in that police interrogation could disagree with me. I really don't.

• 2:03:12Derrick Levasseur?

  We will see in the comments. Guys, we appreciate you being here. Thank you for riding along with us through that entire episode. It was a lot. Again, just to reiterate, if you're listening on audio, I think it's possible to do it. You can still hear the interaction, but it adds a different dimension with the video. So listen to the audio, come over, check out the video, let us know what you think. And if you haven't already, I guess this is the time to plug it. Like, comment, subscribe, leave a comment on the Apple Podcasts or Spotify as well. We get to see those, read them, follow up with them and hear your opinions on this case. So until the next episode, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye.