Patrik Baboumian: The World Record Holding Vegan Strongman On Why Compassion Is His Greatest Strength

Strength isn't just about physical prowess. Strength is about character. By this definition, vegan strongman Patrik Baboumian is perhaps the strongest man on Earth. Born in 1979 to Armenian parents in Abadan, Iran, Patrik and his family fled the Iranian revolution when he was seven and emigrated to central Germany. By the age of nine, he fell in love with wrestling on TV and soon developed an interest in weight training. As a young teen, he got into power lifting and bodybuilding, rising quickly through the ranks to become Germany’s national junior bodybuilding champion. For ethical reasons, in 2005 Patrik went vegetarian, accepting that this would likely undermine his performance goals. Instead, his improvement steadily escalated. So in 2011, he went completely vegan. And that's when things really blew up for the guy they call the Armenian Viking. 100% Plantpowered, over the last 4 years Patrik has been awarded the title of Germany's Strongest Man, racked up multiple victories at the European Powerlifting Championships and set four Guinness World Records in various strength disciplines. We're talking about a guy who can Bench 463 lbs. Squat 794 lbs. And Deadlift 794 lbs. This is a long way of saying that Patrik Baboumian is stronger than you are. And believe it or not, he has accomplished all of these extraordinary, superhuman feats without the one thing long-held conventional wisdom dictates is absolutely necessary to optimally perform as an elite strength athlete: animal protein. I first met Patrik at the 2013 at the Toronto VegFest, where I stood on the WestJet Stage at Harbourfront Centre before a crowd 1,000 deep to cheer him towards a Guinness World Record setting yoke walk — a feat that entailed carrying 1,216 pounds (550kilos) a distance of 10 meters in less than 60 seconds (which he recently bettered to a current 560kg world record, completed in just 28 seconds). Spontaneously grabbing for my GoPro, I shot this little video documenting the astounding accomplishment: But Patrik's greatest strength is not his physical prowess. His greatest strength is his compassion. Breaking strongman world records is what Patrik does. But beyond the accomplishments and beneath the beast-like exterior lives a sensitive, gentle soul. An exemplary human of steadfast ethics whose conscience refuses to allow animals to suffer for the sake of his superhuman athletic goals. In stark contradiction to culturally entrenched notions of masculinity, Patrick performs his feats in the name of compassion — a threatening word too often misinterpreted as weakness that challenges predominant male gender role stereotypes and obliges us to rethink social priorities. My hope is that Patrik's example will open your mind. Compel you to question long-held, conventional notions concerning the relationship between nutrition and athletic performance. Reform stereotypical definitions of masculinity to embrace the responsibility mankind shoulders as protector of the voiceless. Reframe your interpretation of compassion not as weakness, but as our greatest strength. Stir you to think more deeply about your consumer choices. And ultimately inspire you to challenge your own personal limitations. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  Throughout my life, I'd been quite compassionate with animals. And in a way that I perceived animals as made of the same stuff that we are made of. So when I saw animals suffering, it was for me the same thing as seeing children suffering or another human being suffering.

• 1:24Rich Roll?

  That's strong man Patrick Babumian, aka the Armenian Viking, or as I like to call him, the human Wolverine. And this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:47Rich Roll?

  Hey, guys, how you doing? My name is Rich Roll. Welcome to my show. And this is the show, of course, where I do my best to have meaningful conversations about things that matter with the best and the brightest, the most forward-thinking minds across all categories of health, wellness, entrepreneurship, environmentalism, mindfulness, spirituality and consciousness, and in the case of today's guest, fitness, strength, and compassionate living. And the idea behind all of this is to challenge thought and cultural paradigms, to make you think, to facilitate personal growth, and of course, to help all of us unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves, and hopefully... Create a more positive footprint for a better world.

• 2:32Rich Roll?

  Anyway, thank you so much for tuning in today, for subscribing to the show on iTunes, and for taking a moment to leave us a review on iTunes. We appreciate that very much. And of course, because it is the holiday season, for always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your holiday Amazon purchases. The banner ad's right there on the main podcast page and at the bottom of all the episode pages. Click through that, go to Amazon, buy whatever you're gonna buy. Doesn't cost you a cent extra, and it just supports our mission by shaking loose a little extra commission change from the Amazon coffers at Amazon HQ. So we appreciate everybody who has made a habit of that. Really does help us out a lot.

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  All right, so to kind of set the stage for today's episode, it's worth mentioning that there's been a lot of news this past week about vegan bodybuilding. That's right, vegan bodybuilding. It kicked off with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who made this announcement from COP21 in Paris a couple of days ago, that everyone should cut down on their meat consumption to save the planet, while also, and very interestingly, stating pretty unequivocally his opinion that you can be a successful bodybuilder on plant protein, which is a pretty bold statement from a guy who used to say things like, "You hit like a vegetarian", right? It's kinda crazy. I posted it on my Facebook page, it went crazy viral, it got like, almost 2,000 shares.

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  I think it's the most popular thing I've ever posted on my Facebook page. Definitely created a discussion. And that was followed up with another piece, or a couple pieces, I guess I should say, about Barney Du Plessis, who is 2014's Mr. Universe. And he went vegan this past year, and he says he's never felt better, he's stronger, he's recovering faster, and has this newfound enthusiasm and excitement to defend his Mr. Universe title this year. I know what you're thinking. You know, is this guy on steroids? He's probably on steroids, or steroids vegan? Look... I don't know much about bodybuilding. I don't know anything really about Barney, or his world, or his training, or kind of what he's involved in. And I don't even

• 4:47Rich Roll?

  really want to touch that one. What I do know is that it's simply very interesting that suddenly this week, there was so much news about the rise of veganism in bodybuilding coming from two of the most influential people in the sport. These articles were from the BBC, the Daily Mail, a site called Artifact, all of which, again, I posted on my Facebook and will, of course, share in the show notes for this episode. And I just think that that represents a cultural paradigm shift that's worth exploring, that's worth discussing, outside of the steroid discussion. Simply the fact that bodybuilders are even raising this as a possibility and advocating for it, I think, is fascinating. So, in the wake

• 5:28Rich Roll?

  of that, it only makes sense, that in the vein of this week's news moment, that this week's episode should be my conversation with my friend, the vegan Armenian strongman, Patrick Baboumian. But hey, before we get into Patrick's world, remember when I had Gennar Lovelace on the podcast a while back? He's the CEO of ThriveMarket.com. Well, that was a really great conversation. Gennar and I have been friends for a very long time, and I really love what he and his team are doing, and I'm really proud to support their mission and have them as a sponsor of the show. Because if you're anything like me, you care a lot about the food that you put in your body. But unfortunately, good food can be extremely expensive, and that is a problem. It's a problem that Thrive Market

• 6:12Rich Roll?

  isn't just tackling, but they're actually solving it. So who are these guys? What do they do? How does it work? Well, Thrive Market is a socially conscious online marketplace that gives members access to thousands of organic and natural products, all at 25% to 50% off retail. 50% off retail. You can easily filter everything by your preference. Gluten-free, vegan, raw, non-GMO, organic, even fair trade. They even have the best non-toxic household products. Beauty, pet, and baby products all across the market. Think of it like this. If Costco and Whole Foods had a love child, it would look a lot like Thrive Market. So here's how it works. You sign up for a membership. It's only $59.95 a year.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  And as an aside, most members make that back in the first two to three shopping trips. Then you can shop thousands of products offered, place an order, and receive that order right to your door. Orders larger than $49 receive free shipping if you're in the continental U.S. Thrive is not yet doing international orders, but of course, I'll update you when this becomes available. And beyond providing access to great products at 25% to 50% off retail, Thrive has two really cool programs that really appeal to me. And the first one is called the Thrive Gives Program. And this program means that every paid membership is matched with a free membership for a low-income American family, teacher, or military family.

• 7:34Rich Roll?

  And I really love this aspect of the Thrive mission because, of course, low-income families are those that are most in need of better access to great food at discounted prices. And as Thrive Market grows, the reach for low-income families will grow too. And the second applies to sustainability. Thrive Market is 100% carbon neutral through carbonfund.org. All their packaging, their boxes, their inserts are all made from recycled paper and are recyclable. And they're committed to supporting other sustainable businesses by working with eco-friendly vendors and suppliers who share their values. So what's the point? Well, Thrive is truly changing the game because you never have to pay full price for healthy food again. And here's where it gets really exciting for you guys.

• 8:17Rich Roll?

  Thrive is giving my listeners a special deal. One grand prize winner will walk away with a one-year membership and $1,000 to spend at Thrive Market. And that's not all. 10 other runner-ups will also win a free one-year membership too. How do you enter? Go to thrive market.com forward slash Rich Roll and don't miss your chance to win big. Again, thrive market.com forward slash Rich Roll for your chance to win a one-year membership and $1,000 of healthy food from Thrive Market. Do it up. Okay, so who is this guy Patrick Baboumian? Well, he was born in 1979 in Abadan, Iran to Armenian parents. And then Patrick and his family fled the Iranian revolution when he was seven and

• 9:00Rich Roll?

  ultimately emigrated to central Germany. By the time he was nine, he had fallen in love with wrestling on TV and soon developed an interest in weight training. As a young teen, he signed up for a gym, promptly put on 50 pounds and got into powerlifting and bodybuilding, going on to become Germany's junior champion. In 2005, he went vegetarian for ethical reasons, but ironically, he continued to get stronger, ultimately entering the world of strongman competitions and racking up titles very quickly. In 2011, he went completely vegan, no animal products in his diet. Nonetheless, he continued to improve, winning Germany's strongest man competition. This is this crazy world of competition where contestants do all this insane stuff like

• 9:42Rich Roll?

  drag airplanes and carry around giant concrete spheres and put tree trunks on their shoulders, you name it. It's all crazy. But from there, Patrick has gone on to rack up four Guinness World Records in various strength pursuits. And I first met Patrick at the 2013 Toronto Veg Fest where I had the honor of standing on the harbor front stage in front of this gigantic crowd to help cheer him towards a world record in something that's called the yoke walk. This is where he carried 1,216 pounds, 550 kilos, almost the weight of a smart car essentially, on this yoke-like weight scaffold that was anchored on his shoulders and he carried it for a distance of 10 meters. It was amazing.

• 10:27Rich Roll?

  And I made this little video of that incredible feat, which is on my YouTube channel and also embedded on the episode page for this podcast. Patrick has since topped that record twice, first with a 550 kilogram carry and then just this past September, four years after going vegan, a 560 kilogram carry, which he completed in a much quicker time of just 28 seconds.

• 10:51Rich Roll?

  Patrick is a beautiful, gentle soul. This is a guy who literally cannot hurt a fly, a guy whose conscience simply would no longer allow animals to suffer for the sake of his personal athletic goals, and that, quite interestingly, went on to perform inhuman feats as a vegan that pushed the boundaries of human possibility and really, I think, powerfully challenged long-held paradigms about the relationship between animal products and human athletic performance. He's a stellar ambassador of the vegan movement and just an all-around exceptional, extraordinary human being that I'm proud to call a friend. And I've been wanting to share his story on the podcast for a very, very long time. So, one of the highlights of my recent trip to Germany this past fall was grabbing the

• 11:34Rich Roll?

  opportunity to sit down with him and have this long-overdue conversation that I can now share with you guys. And it's a truly epic, epic conversation, and it's my hope that it will open and perhaps bend your mind, compel you to question long-held conventional notions about food, athletic performance, nutrition, and animal agriculture. And perhaps it will challenge your concept of masculinity, what it means to be a man, and the relationship of this role to compassion, and ultimately inspire you to think more deeply about our consumer choices and challenge your own personal limitations. So, without further ado, let's

• 12:13Rich Roll?

  step into the dojo of the human Wolverine, the Armenian Viking, the original vegan badass himself, Patrick Baboumian.

• 12:28Rich Roll?

  All right, man, let's do this. It's only taken us two years to sit down in the same room together, right?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 12:35Rich Roll?

  The last time we saw each other was Toronto Veg Fest, September of 2012.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  I think it was 2013.

• 12:43Rich Roll?

  13, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was great because that was also the time that you broke the world record by... Why don't you explain exactly what went down?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was actually...

• 13:02Speaker 01

  A world record in the yoke walk. And so what I had to do was I had to carry 555 kilos for a distance of 10 meters. And I had, I was allowed to drop it once. And that's what we did there. And I was quite nervous because I did it a week before that in, in Berlin. Everything went fine, but then I had totally different equipment in Toronto. So I was quite nervous before and quite happy after, after it went well. I mean, you, you probably remember how happy I was.

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Well, it was, it was a really cool experience because, you know, you know, I'm an athlete and I've been around a lot of different kinds of athletes, but I'd never been even a spectator to anything, you know, like what you were doing. So it was very interesting to, to be kind of participating behind the scenes because everything was being filmed for this documentary. And so I was kind of hanging around and what happened was to kind of set the stage is you were attempting this world record and, and, you know, for those that are listening that are in the United States, 550 kilograms is about 1,200 pounds, right around there, right? And in order to kind of qualify this, everything had to be weighed. So there was all these, there was on a stage at the WestJet stage in, in Toronto, which

• 14:26Rich Roll?

  is right on the harbor, on the waterfront there. And, and there were all kinds of people weighing all the weights and you had this sort of scaffold, this giant yoke on, on which all these plates were, were being added until, you know, it weighed exactly 550 kilograms. And then the idea was you were going to walk from one end of the stage to the other. You had to go 10 meters. You're allowed to set it down once briefly. Is there a time limit on how long you can let it rest for?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  One minute.

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  One minute?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  It was one minute for the whole thing. So if I rest too long, it would have been impossible to do it in one minute.

• 14:59Rich Roll?

  So you got to get, you have to get, you have to, you have to traverse the 10 meters in under a minute.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:05Rich Roll?

  I got you. And who, like, who sets those rules? Like, how does that work?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  It was, um, actually, um, we talked to Guinness because it was an official Guinness World Record and we told them how it normally works at a competition. And then they tried to come up with with an idea how to set it up so it works for them. So it was pretty much them.

• 15:26Rich Roll?

  Right, and they they have to like send out representative, like there's a whole rigmarole process to that, right? And they charge you a bunch of money and it's like a whole thing.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  I'm I'm quite happy I didn't, I was not the person to pay the money.

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  That's always good. You get somebody else to do that.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone else.

• 15:44Rich Roll?

  Hey, I'm the talent, man, you know, I got enough on my plate.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  We we had some sponsors and the, um, you know, some of the guys that organized the whole thing, uh, so, um, they they took care of everything, so all I had to do was just carrying that stupid thing.

• 16:02Rich Roll?

  Well, that's all you should have to do, you know what I mean? Uh, and it was it was really exciting, like a ton of people showed up, there had, I don't know, a thousand people there to witness it happening and and I almost spontaneously, I was like, oh, I have a GoPro, like I should just film this. It wasn't, it was an afterthought, I didn't even think like, oh, I'm gonna make a video out of this, and I just pulled it out of my pocket and filmed the whole thing and just didn't even edit it, I just put it up on my YouTube channel, basically like that. And that video has probably more views than anything else I've ever posted on my YouTube channel, which is awesome, you know, and I use clips from that now when I go out and give talks quite frequently, frequently when I'm, um, you know, sort of addressing the the question of of, you know, athletic performance and being plant-based, so thank you for that,

• 16:46Rich Roll?

  you gave me that, but it was really, it was a privilege and it was a cool thing to see and it was very exciting. I mean, you were definitely, you were, the thing is, though, when you were backstage, you were joking around with people, I didn't know you were nervous, you were actually, I was, I was like, shouldn't he be like away from people? Like, you you seemed pretty chill about the whole thing.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  No, I was totally nervous, but, uh, uh, probably I used, um, the the talking and everything just to distract myself a little bit from my nervousness, so, um, but but I was really nervous, just tried to, um, yeah, tried to somehow distract myself from from the nervousness that I had.

• 17:24Rich Roll?

  Right, I mean, how do you mentally prepare? Uh, like, do you have a routine or like a process or a mantra? Or like, how does that look for you?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  In a perfect situation, I would try to get some, uh, some, some calm place where, where I can concentrate. And then I would just, uh, visualize what I, what I'm going to do. So, uh, and it's not so much, uh, a formal routine, but it's more, uh, that, um, I mean, most of it happens in, in the head, right? So it doesn't, uh, depend too much on the outer circumstances. It's just enough if, if I can get some, some, some quietness and, um, just some, some place where, uh, some place where I can just, uh, I mean, be, uh, be quiet enough to, um, to go through everything that, that I'm planning to do.

• 18:11Rich Roll?

  That you have to do, right? Yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's interesting to me because although we're both athletes, we're on different ends of the spectrum. You're, you know, uh, at the very far extreme of like strength and power. And, you know, I'm the long distance endurance guy. And, and, you know, but I would imagine sort of the, the mental preparation would be similar. But I'm, as you're explaining this, I'm thinking, you know, when I'm, when I'm out there doing my thing, it's a, it's a, it's sort of a progressive process of, of getting more and more fatigued and still going forward. But with you, it, it's a very precise moment where failure just happens. Like, you know, it's either, either you're going to push through this moment and get, get through the next two seconds and succeed, or it's all going to end.

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  Like, everything is very compressed comparatively.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Um, so it's, um, I mean, the experience of, uh, learning, uh, running for a very long distance. I mean, not compared to anything that you do, but I still have a feeling for, uh, what, what it's like. Because, uh, I have been dieting for bodybuilding competitions. And, uh, in that time, um, um, I had to do cardio work. So it's like a little glimpse of, of what you do.

• 19:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Um, so, uh, it's, it's really completely something else. Um, um, but I mean, the, the still.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Though it's uh so different, still there are similarities. Still, uh you have to um

• 19:41Speaker 01

  get manage to uh you you have to manage to in in some way um tame this beast inside your head that uh says stop, I don't want to go on and and so on. But it it's just in a different way. You're uh the beast is much louder, but for a for a very short time.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  You have to punch it very hard for a short time. And when when you're running for a long distance, of course, then um it it takes much more time. Uh but uh.

• 20:10Rich Roll?

  It's a low grade. He's not yeah, you you're just he's just he's he's like, instead of the beast punching you in the face very hard, he's just lightly slapping you constantly, like uh some kind of water torture. It's different. It's interesting. Um uh but but the principle is the same, really, which is to, you know, quiet the chatter of the mind and get as present as possible. Like, the more anchored in the moment you are, then the more able you're gonna be to be able to like show up for the task at hand, right?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Um and then what separates me a little bit from from most uh people that I um um that I meet in competitions and I that I compete with is um that a lot of a lot of the guys will um try to use aggressiveness to get to psych up and and get to the point where they can uh really un- unchain uh that that inner energy to um to succeed. Um and for me, it works differently. I think uh actually, uh my my procedure is probably um probably more um um ne- nearer to to to what you might do

• 21:20Speaker 01

  or or um some endurance guys would do than to what is typically a typical procedure for for someone in in my sport. Because I really try to um um I I don't try to use aggressiveness and and anger as a source of energy, uh because I have the feeling that um it. I mean, it it unchains energy, but at the same time, it really makes it hard to concentrate on on on form and so on. So for me, it works best to really get calm. Um, and then the funny thing is, as soon as I succeed and as soon as I really do what what I'm

• 22:00Speaker 01

  what I'm what I'm planning to do, right after the the the last second, I'm exploding like

• 22:07Rich Roll?

  I saw that.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Because I really have to, um, it's like really um, having to put all this uh, pressure inside the bottle.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And then uh, it it it pops in the um, like like a like a bottle of champagne or something.

• 22:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Uh, right in the uh, last second that I explode.

• 22:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but not in anger, you know, there's a there's a joy and a jubilation and a and a sort of aggressive celebration of it, but it's it's not coming from a dark place. And I I think that's an interesting point that you made, you know, that that sort of, you know, pound your chest and huff and puff, kind of aggressive, you know, anger approach. Um, you see a lot of that, but it it always struck me as sort of, uh, first of all, it's it it takes a lot of energy to do that. So you're wasting a bunch of energy, kind of peacocking around like that.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Rich Roll?

  And I I feel like it's unsustainable in the sense that you have to, like, if you have to summon that up every time in order to perform, that's a that's a tall order, right? As opposed to like, you know, when you're when you're talking, I'm like, well, it's more of a, it's more of a zen approach, like, you know, sort of internally focusing and like just getting all that energy ready to channel it in like one very laser, you know, focused direction.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:16Rich Roll?

  Interesting. All right. Well, let's let's track it back, you know, like you have such an interesting story. We're here in Frankfurt, Germany, and you live, you know, a couple hours away, north in Berlin, uh, but you're you're Armenian, you're Iranian, you speak amazing English, like, what is going on here? You're you're like this melting pot of all sorts of different cultures.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:37Rich Roll?

  Packed into this very compact, strong structure.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  That's that's probably the coolest description of my person I heard so far.

• 23:47Rich Roll?

  Are you the Armenian Viking or are you the human Wolverine? Which one is it? You know what I mean? You're definitely the human Wolverine.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably. The sideburns are growing fast.

• 23:58Rich Roll?

  How long have you been growing those? They're insane.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Uh, I think almost half a year now.

• 24:03Rich Roll?

  Really? It's pretty funny. So we'll, I'll post a picture on the, on the website in the show notes and I'll also embed the video that we were talking about there. So everybody can check that out. But yeah, man, where's it all, where does it all begin?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it began in Iran at the Persian Gulf. That's where I'm born, where I'm born. I'm of Armenian origin, which means that some of my ancestors have, I don't know, I don't even know if any of my ancestors really came from Armenia, but it's like Armenians are scattered all around the place in, in the Orient. So then as, as much as I can track it back, it seems that my ancestors have been in Iran for more than 300 years.

• 24:51Rich Roll?

  Both mom and dad.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, for 300 years. So like grand, grand, grand, anything. So, yeah, and that's from both sides. But I, I could track it back from, from my dad's side for, for like almost 300 years.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  So still of Armenian origin. So that means that I grew up speaking Armenian and Persian, two languages. And then when I was seven years old, we left Iran as refugees of war because the year I'm born is 1979 and that's also the year the Iran-Iraq war started. So. Yeah, when when I was seven years old, we left Iran and I grew up from that point, I grew up in Germany. So that was the third language.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  Why Germany? I mean, what is what did your what did your dad do or do are your parents still around?

• 25:45Speaker 01

  No, um, my my dad died when I was uh four years old and I then left the country with my mom.

• 25:51Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Um, and um, the the plan was actually, that's funny.

• 25:56Rich Roll?

  Did your dad, did your dad die in the conflict?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  No, he he just died uh in a car accident.

• 26:01Rich Roll?

  I see, oh.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Um, and uh, the actual plan was to um, leave the country and get to the States, actually. And we used Germany just as a um, transit country uh where we would stay as long as the paperwork uh would would take to um, get accepted as as uh to to get asylum for the States and then come as refugees uh to the States. But uh, my mom would change the plan and um, I don't know, she just liked Germany. So she decided that we would stay there uh together with her with my uncle, um, uh, her brother. So we're all together.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  Was he already here or or?

• 26:43Speaker 01

  No, we came together.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  Wow, and so you so they didn't know anybody, though?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:49Rich Roll?

  Right, and do you have brothers and sisters?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  No, I was uh, I had a sister, but uh, she died in a car accident too. So it was just me.

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  Oh, man, I'm sorry to hear that, wow.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  So so it was just me, my mom and uh and my grandma, and then um, also my uncle and his family.

• 27:04Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, wow, and to the Frankfurt area or where in where in Germany?

• 27:08Speaker 01

  At the at the beginning, it was uh, so uh, we we arrived here in Frankfurt. Um, and then um, the place where I lived uh for for the next years was an hour from here. So so that's uh, pretty much where where I was based uh through my childhood and so on.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. And so so uh, was is there like an Armenian community that you guys became a part of? Or were you just like this outsider kid growing up as a young person?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that was pretty much the situation. So there was wasn't a lot of Armenians here. And I also, because it's probably because I grew up with two languages. It was quite easy for me to learn German. So I needed like six months or so. And then I was fluent, but not correct in a correct way, but but still fluent. So it went quite fast and it was quite easy for me to to integrate myself in into the community and everything. So.

• 28:10Rich Roll?

  Right. And is that how you picked up English so well too? You just have an affinity for languages, you think?

• 28:14Speaker 01

  I think that's a part of it. And then the other part is that I always had a lot of friends from the States and then English speaking people. And also, when I studied psychology, all of the literature I had to read, it's all in English.

• 28:35Rich Roll?

  It's English, right?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 28:36Rich Roll?

  When you were in college or university, right? All right. So like, what kind of kid were you? I mean, were you always a big, strong kid? Were you playing a lot of sports as a young person? Or where does athletics kind of enter the picture?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Not really. It was, I think, pretty much the opposite even. And not that I was particularly weak, but but I was particularly quite unsporty. I wasn't very athletic. So and that's pretty much how it is, how it still is. So if I would have to to run, I don't know, for a few miles or so, it would just kill me. Because I just carry too much weight. So. So in school, I was not the athletic type of kid.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  What kind of kids did you hang out with?

• 29:25Speaker 01

  I think I was one of those. I was the leader of the outsiders, I would say. I was the coolest guy within the really uncool guys.

• 29:36Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. I got you. But you seem like a guy who could kind of navigate in between groups. Like you have social skills, like you could be able to like, kind of pick which, you know, whatever group, you know, could kind of like. You could be with.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:49Rich Roll?

  Accurate or no?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  I mean, at least you can say that it was a um um that I I was with the outsiders uh or in purpose. So it was not like um um I had I didn't have have the chance to uh to get to the mainstream uh guys.

• 30:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  But I really uh always like to be a rebel.

• 30:10Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  So there was.

• 30:11Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, you wouldn't be growing a beard the way that you grow beard. I don't see you over at the investment bank with that beard.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  Cool, I got you. So uh so where where did the interest in in I mean, the first kind of thing that you started to explore was bodybuilding, right? I mean, the the sort of powerlifting and strong man stuff came later.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  That's right. Um so it all began when I was fourteen years old. Uh and me and a friend of mine who went to the same school, we were both um very, very much into uh professional wrestling. So we watched all the.

• 30:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, who are your guys?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:50Rich Roll?

  Who are like your favorite guys?

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Um I I had a few uh guys uh that I really liked and uh probably uh The Undertaker being

• 31:02Speaker 01

  one of my favorites. And then my friend uh was was a really big fan of uh the the Hitman.

• 31:08Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Brett the Hitman Hart.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  So um we watched all the all those stuff um and then we would also try to do all the things uh by ourselves.

• 31:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  And uh on several uh occasions, we almost killed ourselves, breaking our necks and doing a lot of stupid stuff. Um so um at a certain point, we just realized uh if you really wanted to go for a wrestling career, uh we would have to build muscles because as a fourteen year old and he was even one and a half years uh uh younger than than me, so. We really didn't resemble the stature of.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  These guys, right. So really, the seed here, the spark that lit all of this was wanting to be in the WWF.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 31:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all right.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So that was the first step. And then we began lifting weights at home and just doing some exercises, some bodyweight exercises. We got some dumbbells and did some stuff. And then we went to the outdoors and did some outdoor stuff. Also a lot of running and everything just to get overall fitness. And then at a certain point, we decided that we really wanted to go and be members in the gym. So that we could take our training to the next level.

• 32:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  And that was a really hard challenge because most of the gyms wouldn't accept us because we were so young. So they were like, okay, you have to be at least 16 or you have to be at least 18 and so on. And finally, we found a gym that accepted us and we trained there for, I think, one and a half years until they kicked us out. Because at that point, I think I broke three of their implements that they had.

• 33:04Rich Roll?

  Why? How'd you do that? What do you mean?

• 33:05Speaker 01

  I was too strong.

• 33:06Rich Roll?

  You really? So you're just naturally like, all right, I'm trying to get the picture here. Because in the picture I was painting in my mind is you're, you know, basically an average looking kid who's like, you know, committed to this dream and is slowly building up. But obviously, right out of the gate, you were, I mean, you're built for this, just your natural stature, but are you just naturally strong?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  No, what you have in your mind is absolutely correct, but it didn't take me a long time. Because we both, my friend and me, we were both so dedicated and so motivated for the whole thing. We were pretty much living for that thing.

• 33:46Rich Roll?

  I got you, yeah.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Like when we woke up in the morning, we would have our shake and when all these other kids would go to parties. We would just do our routine.

• 33:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  And that's why after a year or so, we just exploded, both of us. We just exploded and that's where where it really came to.

• 34:04Rich Roll?

  Right, when like the hormones kick in of of like puberty and everything like that. And you're spending all this time in the gym and you got posters of all these guys on your bedroom wall, probably at home and the whole thing. I like how you did it with a friend, though, right? It's like you guys, so like, what happened to him?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, the the funny thing is, we're still both in the business, but he's doing, so I'm still an athlete.

• 34:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  And he's running a website called BodyExtreme.com. And he does a lot of competition coverage in in bodybuilding and in in strength sports and so on. So he covers all the pro bodybuilding events in the States.

• 34:42Rich Roll?

  Did he become a bodybuilder himself as well?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  For for a for a time.

• 34:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so both you guys like built a life out of this little dream that you had when you were fourteen and joined your first gym. That's pretty cool.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 34:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, nice. So when does the competition aspect of it come in? Like what ha- so you're getting big, right? You're breaking weights, you're getting kicked out of gyms, like then what?

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, then we found another gym that was a little bit more hardcore and the equipment was more stable.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  So we moved to that, to the other gym and went on training. And then I had this time of probably ten months or so, or eight months or so, where I barely trained at all. It was a time where I pretty much did everything that I had missed in in the years before. So I partied like like a jackass. I I did everything that that I hadn't done.

• 35:41Rich Roll?

  Were you just burned out or like what motivated that, you think?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  No, it was just.

• 35:47Rich Roll?

  Being a teenager.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really didn't didn't think about it. It was just that uh in that moment that it felt like the thing to do and uh training was at in in a certain moment, training wa- wasn't that important anymore. So uh I had this ten months or so, but then after the ten months, um it it just came back. It um um I just felt the urge to uh to to get back into training and everything. And in that time, I lost some weight. So before the ten months, I was already one hundred and two kilos or so.

• 36:22Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Um.

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Which is what? That's what, like two ten or something? No.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  That's two twenty.

• 36:28Rich Roll?

  Two twenty, okay.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Two twenty, yeah, yeah. Two twenty something.

• 36:31Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  So uh quite heavy for a se- seventy years old.

• 36:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  So um.

• 36:37Rich Roll?

  And if you were in the United States, you'd be playing football for sure.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 36:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Probably. Um so um then uh I got back into training and uh and at that time, my friend uh did his first uh bodybuilding competition. Uh and I just prepared him. So I was just his uh yeah, what what do you call that? It's not really a coach, someone who uh comes with you to the competition and and just just helps you with with everything.

• 37:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Um so I did that and um when I watched the competition, it it somehow I thought it would be fun to do the same thing. But then at the same moment, bodybuilding was not really what what what I was. I I didn't feel uh that I was a bodybuilder in in the sense, because it's a aesthetic sport, it's about looks, and I was all about lifting heavy stuff.

• 37:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  So it felt like.

• 37:31Rich Roll?

  And where's what happened to wrestling?

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Um yeah, that that's that's a good, that's a good question, actually. So wrestling.

• 37:39Rich Roll?

  Speaking of aesthetics.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Uh wrestling really went away um within the first twelve months.

• 37:46Rich Roll?

  Uh.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Uh when we realized that lifting weights was such a li- such a lot of fun. So it really got replaced by by lifting weights. I mean, I still uh. Um. I still think the the wrestling thing is really cool, but it it wasn't the uh it wasn't the center of of our motivation anymore. So um yeah, so he he did his first uh competition and uh then he tried to convince me to do one. And um I it didn't really feel naturally to me, um so but but I still uh would let him convince me.

• 38:20Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Um. So I did my first bodybuilding competition six years after getting back to training. Um. And the problem with it was that I was quite quite uh successful, actually.

• 38:32Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  So I won in my county and then at the German uh juniors championship, I would uh be placed fourth.

• 38:40Rich Roll?

  Right. And so you're what, like seventeen now or something like that, eighteen?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  At that uh point, I was nineteen.

• 38:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  So I thought, okay.

• 38:48Rich Roll?

  It's weird, like you're succeeding, but you're not, you're like, I don't even know if this is my thing.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 38:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Um. And um then I thought, okay, um now I have done this and it went much better than I thought. So probably um I should go for another ti- try because it was uh my second uh last year uh uh in the junior division. So I thought, okay, I have one more shot at the junior division and probably if I'm now fourth, probably next year I will be uh. It will be possible to to win.

• 39:19Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  So that's what I tried. Um. So um I came back the year after. Uh. Won the uh county again and then went for for the Germans, uh for the German nationals. Um. And I my plan was to get into the middleweight uh category. So in the junior um division, they have three categories.

• 39:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Three weight categories, um up to seven kilos, then up to eighty kilos, uh seventy, uh seven.

• 39:48Rich Roll?

  Seventy, right.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Seventy and then up to eighty and then uh everything above eighty is is the third and and the open category.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Uh. And my plan was to get in the middleweight, so up to eighty ca- uh up up to eighty kilos. And something went wrong with um with making weight. So um.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Incidentally, I got into the heavyweights. And I I thought I'm completely uh uh I I don't have any chance to to do any good uh at the heavyweights. Because I mean, most of the guys were like much taller than than I was.

• 40:23Rich Roll?

  You didn't you didn't cut weight properly, like you screwed up somewhere along the line in terms of like the whole weight cutting thing?

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Uh actually, it was not my fault. Uh actually, um uh if if we get into the detail, it was um that we weighed uh we um measured uh our weight on a scale um at the gym uh for which I was uh I was competing. And their uh scale was uh was not accurate.

• 40:49Rich Roll?

  Uh wasn't calibrated.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so so everyone uh wh- when we got to the competition, everyone was one kilo heavier than they thought. And and the problem at that point was that I was the one who really cut weight absolutely accurately and perfect.

• 41:05Rich Roll?

  So you could be right at the edge of the the weight classification.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I I I didn't want to uh leave anything to chance, so I was really at the edge. I was absolutely. I I used uh all all I could uh get to uh really um make the thing happen. Because that was uh the the last time that I would get a shot at the junior. So um and that was the problem. So I had uh one kilo that I had too much and I had to get rid of that within two hours or so. Um and the problem at that point was for a bodybuilding competition, you um cut a lot of weight. Why by uh by trying to uh get rid of your body fat uh um obviously, and then also you.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  You dehydrate your body. So I was already completely dehydrated. There wasn't anything.

• 41:57Rich Roll?

  No more water to go.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  No, yeah, uh amputation would be the only thing. So so I lost six hundred grams or so within those two hours. By running, spitting, and uh I mean, I couldn't even go uh to the bathroom or or anything. Because there wasn't any water in me to to get rid of. I even tried to uh throw up. Didn't work. There was anything in my stomach.

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  Bizarre thing. Alright, so what happens in the competition?

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so um so I had to go to the opens and then uh. Um, I was expecting to be any anywhere between fifth place or or anything like that because there were such a lot of huge guys there. And what that actually happened was I I won the overall thing. So I won the category and then won uh the overall title too. Um, and that was the reason motivated me a lot. And that was the reason that I came back in the year after that. Um, at the um, what is it called in English at the minsk category like? Um, I

• 43:00Rich Roll?

  I don't know what that means.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Um, now it's uh after juniors, you're just

• 43:05Rich Roll?

  Oh, just like seniors, yeah, like just regular, like the, yeah, the real men category.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. That sounds cool. Real man category. Yeah, so I would come back uh um as a quite uh uh young guy and and I think I placed ninth or so.

• 43:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  And that was the last time that I competed at uh bodybuilding for for ten years. After uh in two thousand and nine, I did one once more.

• 43:29Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Uh, but for ten years, that was it. And um in the years after that, I just, I think four or five years, I just trained for fun.

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Until two thousand and six and two thousand and six was then uh when I did my first uh strong man competition.

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  Gotcha. All right, we're gonna get into that and unpack all of that. But, you know, I just, while we're on the whole body boat building thing, I mean, it's such a it's such a weird and very specific like subculture, right? Like, like it's a sport, but it's also like this weird beauty contest of of, you know, aesthetics and and posing and posturing. Like it's, there's nothing else like it really in sport. Like it's its own strange universe with its own rulebook, I suppose.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And uh the the thing is that the actual sport and and the actual work that you do happens in the gym. So normally you, when when you have a competition, the the actual performance that you do happens on uh happens at the competition. But as a bodybuilder, you really have to perform in the in the preparation. Before the competition and at the competition, you're just showing the result of

• 44:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  what you have done for months and years.

• 44:41Rich Roll?

  There was a period of time where I was living in the Venice area of Los Angeles and I belonged to the Gold's Gym in Venice, like the home of bodybuilding. That's where, you know, it's where Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, got his start, etc. And during this period of time, you would go and you'd see like a lot of the professional bodybuilders, I mean, and even like the former ones, like, you know, Lou Ferrigno was there like every day and these female bodybuilders and they just clock in at eight or nine in the morning and they're there until five or six at night, like every single day, you know, this is like their job, you know, they go and I was like, okay, I get it. But just observing it like was just, I'm like, I'm trying to relate to like what's going on and I'm like, it's so weird, but

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  they, and I feel like it can be, and I'm not saying this is for everyone, of course, but it can be this kind of receivership or kind of safe haven for people that have like body dysmorphia issues or, or, you know, weird kind of like psychological issues about their, how they look, etc.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:45Rich Roll?

  Because it's so kind of self-oriented in that regard. And also, I think that there's a sense of, you know, once they become so gigantic, they almost become, they're marginalizing themselves in public, you know, because they look so different than everyone else. So this is the place where they can come and be with their like-minded community and feel supported.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:05Rich Roll?

  And I would observe, you could see that social dynamic, like, you know, in action. It's very interesting.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Everything you said was right.

• 46:14Rich Roll?

  Yes, right, okay.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I can agree to that.

• 46:17Rich Roll?

  And what about, I mean, what about like steroid use? I mean, you know, what is, I mean, did you, how does that work in the world that you inhabited at that time?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a real big issue. I had some funny, some funny experiences with that because as I told you, we were thrown out the first gym where we were. And and the reason was pretty much that we were really getting getting stronger and much, much faster than anyone would expect that. So some of the gym members would really get angry and most cases it was you have those guys that are in the gym and you see what you described, that they get in the gym quite early in the morning and then you see them until the evening.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  And you have those guys that really do that, but you don't see them train actually.

• 47:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're just kind of walking around, talking to each other and then like sort of flexing in the mirror and observing themselves.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then most of the time you see them even at, what is it called, in the bar? Having a shake or anything or even smoking cigarettes or anything else. So what they do has pretty much nothing to do with with sport or with a healthy lifestyle or anything. And those guys would would get really angry on us because we were really doing well, like after one and a half years, I think I was one of the strongest guys in the whole gym. And I was sixteen years old. And so some of them would like scream to our face that we're using steroids and I don't think.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  And the funny part of it was at that point, I wouldn't even know what they're talking about. And I was told, told my friend, what the hell are they talking about? What is that even?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  So up to the point till we left the gym, I didn't even know what it was. And then, of course, in the years later, I learned a lot about it because I met a lot of people who tried, I mean, some of them tried to sell you something, some of them.

• 48:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm sure if you're in that world, it's gonna be in your face, right?

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And it's.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  One, one big issue is, uh, that I have the feeling of is, um, when, when I see what, uh, what government is doing to, to get, uh, the, uh, the problem handled is that, uh, they constantly really concentrate on, uh, on professional athletes and trying to, uh, find ways to make them, uh, work in a, um, uh, uh, in a natural way and, and don't use any performance enhancing drugs and, and so on. Uh, and I always have this feeling that they really over, oversee the problem that, that is really much worse and it's not the professional athletes because in most cases, if they don't, uh, use anything,

• 49:23Speaker 01

  they use it, um, they, they get their stuff, uh, by, by a doctor or, uh, by anyone and they know what they do. But it's really in, in all those gyms, all these kids that really get, uh, influenced and, and, and get, get in touch with, uh, with people who try to tell, uh, sell them all kinds of, uh, shit. So, uh, that was really a, a big challenge to not get into this, um, uh, really self-destructive, uh, um, culture where, um, I mean, you can really compare it with, uh, uh, other types of, of drug use because, um, in most cases, if you, if you're using drugs, um, um, the, the problem

• 50:06Speaker 01

  is that you are like in a vicious circle where you, um, destroy, um, first your health and then also your, um, um, your, uh, psychological, uh, um, um, yeah, your, your second, your, your psychological health. So you're really destroying your, your persona, uh, and it gets worse and worse. Um, uh, and if you're lucky, you get out of the circle. Um, and if, if not, you really go down to hell. Um, and it's just, it's the same thing if you, uh, take a look on, on, on hard drugs or on alcohol or on steroids, it's also always the same thing. And I'm really happy that we were able to stay away from that and, uh,

• 50:51Speaker 01

  yeah, get, get through the whole process, uh, without being, being pulled down in this, uh, in this thing.

• 50:57Rich Roll?

  I mean, do you think that that perhaps that might have been, you know, a factor in in you kind of stepping outside of that that that sport? I mean, you know, do you think that you can be competitive internationally without using that kind of performance enhancing drug? I mean, the guys at the top of the game, they're just so freakishly big. Like, you just look at them, you're like, that's not humanly possible without assistance, pharmacological assistance.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  But I really don't don't don't think that way because one thing that you forget when you think like that is you forget the role of genetics. If you look at a basketball player, for instance, who is like eight feet tall or seven feet tall,

• 51:45Speaker 01

  there is nothing to to to get that big, there there no drug or anything that you can use to to get that big. And you would never think in the in the terms of how can you be be that tall? Because you know, okay, he has the genetics to to grow that tall. And it's the same thing with being muscular or being strong.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Some people just have completely different genetics. So I think it's it's a little bit misleading if you if you think in terms of if someone is is doing well at a certain sport, it must be because of the performance enhancing drugs. Because what I learned from from everything that I experienced in that world is

• 52:32Speaker 01

  the the part, the performance enhancing drugs play is probably, let's say, I mean, it's not more than 20% of the whole performance. So you you you would never get someone who is not already on a very high level to win a competition with drugs.

• 52:53Rich Roll?

  Right, but at the very highest level, 20% is a lot when you're differentiating at the 1% level between, you know, the best and the second best.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely, it can it can be what what depends, or it can be what is going to decide if if you're going to be 10th place or if you're going to be the first place. But it's never possible if you don't do anything else in in the correct way and don't don't have all the other ingredients. It will give you nothing.

• 53:23Rich Roll?

  Right, but it but but at the highest level of bodybuilding, I mean, it's not it's it's not a clean sport. I mean, even by these guys' own admission, you know, this is like.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:33Rich Roll?

  They're all doing that, right? I mean.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  I mean, if you take a look on the professional bodybuilders, um, yeah, it's it's pretty much no, no, no one, uh. I I think there's no pro bodybuilder who would really, uh, um, say they they do it naturally, no. And also if you have.

• 53:49Rich Roll?

  There's the natural competitions for that reason, because it's agreed upon. Everybody knows that the the ones that are not in the not natural competition are, you know, using something most likely.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  But but the really bad thing about that is, uh, I know some natural bodybuilders. And a lot of them use stuff too.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  So, uh, and but still you you see a difference between between the natural bodybuilders and the what what can I call them? Unnatural or supernatural, but supernatural is a good one.

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  The semi-natural and the admittedly completely unnatural.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  You already see this big difference. Um, and and still there are some guys who who would find a way to trick the tests or anything.

• 54:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  So you you you will always have that problem. Um, because as as as soon as you have a new test.

• 54:40Rich Roll?

  We're human beings.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that's.

• 54:42Rich Roll?

  That's what human beings do.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  They find a way to, uh, to to trick it, so, um. Yes, so so bodybuilding might be a little bit special on that, uh, because it's such a. I always call it a cosmetic sport.

• 54:57Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Because I think it's it's a lot about, uh, the the the look and, uh.

• 55:03Rich Roll?

  A look that you can only maintain for like an hour.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that's that's the funny, uh, part of it.

• 55:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  It especially for me, it was exactly, uh, how it worked. So I would diet for half a year or so, almost kill myself. Because because naturally I'm I'm always overweight. Uh, I'm I'm not in a very good shape, so that that's, uh, how I look naturally. So if I really want to get in that shape that you need on the on the stage, I would really. Really have to almost kill myself. I would do.

• 55:35Rich Roll?

  Get that like paper thin skin where all the veins are popping through and all that kind of.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't even get to that point, but I tried to get as close as I could. So, so what I would have to do is, for instance, six, uh, six hours of cardio a day. So three hours, uh, after.

• 55:50Rich Roll?

  You'd be training for Ultraman.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that, that's why I said, I, I can't, I can, uh, um, I, I have some experience where, where I can. Like relate to, to, to know what you do. Uh, but then, uh, of course, these six hours were on a very low, uh, um, uh, uh. Performance, yeah, intensity level while you are going for probably six hours.

• 56:15Rich Roll?

  No, a lot of, a lot of, no, a lot of the endurance training is, it's at a very, you know, it's at a, it's at a pretty low, you know, you're in that, you're aerobic. Kind of fat burning zone.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so I would really have to do a lot of, uh, uh, a lot of cardio training and also. A lot of dieting, like, uh, being on almost zero carbs for several weeks, uh, to, to get to the point. And then right after the competition, I would start just stuffing everything I, I, I could find into my face.

• 56:47Rich Roll?

  Your body's like literally changing in front of your very eyes.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so I would like gain 10 kilos in a day or so.

• 56:54Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, I mean, clearly there is a genetic element to it because some people are just naturally ectomorphic and, you know, you can see the, the veins under their skin. You know, normally or whatever, and you're a super strong guy, but you know, you're not genetically sort of.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:07Rich Roll?

  You know, kind of cut out for that.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  No, I'm not, uh, built for bodybuilding. Actually, if, if you really look on, uh, um. My, uh, physique, it's, it's pretty much built for powerlifting.

• 57:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  That's, that's actually the, the sport that I'm built for.

• 57:21Rich Roll?

  Perfectly built for that. So let's talk about that, right? So, so, uh, so you have this, you know, sort of bodybuilding career. And, uh, and you decide to change directions.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, yes. So what, what, uh, first happened is that I went away from competing for quite a long time. Um, and I just trained for fun. So.

• 57:43Rich Roll?

  Just being a normal dude.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, in, in that time, uh, I also, um. Went to evening school to uh to get uh uh what is it called uh to uh.

• 57:58Rich Roll?

  Master's degree like a.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, what you need to get to the university.

• 58:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, I got you in order to go to university.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I did that in that time um and then in two thousand and six uh I went uh I I started uh my my uh psychology study. And um also I in two thousand and five, so one year before that, uh I became vegetarian.

• 58:24Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Um and then in two thousand and six, uh in in the first year of studying psychology, I also started with uh strong man competitions.

• 58:32Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Uh and the reason for that was, and this is this is quite related to uh the self-destructing thing that that we just spoke about. Um so the reason um that that I started with strong man was the following, um. Uh I was already studying psychology and uh it was in some winter evening and I was just uh surfing through some sites. And then it came to my, I was actually just checking some stuff on on Wikipedia.

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Uh and then it came to my mind to check out Wikipedia for uh some some of those wrestling guys. And I started checking some of those guys.

• 59:12Rich Roll?

  See like what happened to those guys, you know what they were doing now?

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and a lot of them were just dead, like the British Bulldog, Owen Hart, um a lot of those guys really weren't alive anymore. And I was shocked because it was like literally one decade after I I watched all those guys uh as a kid and and I was a fan of all the uh the whole thing. And now they were like fifty percent of those guys were dead.

• 59:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Rowdy Roddy Piper just died too, right? How old was he?

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Uh the the Ultimate Warrior just died, a lot a lot of a lot of the guys aren't uh alive anymore. So um so I checked it and and obviously uh being in the whole sport and knowing what what what happens there uh I knew what what would be the cause of such a lot of people uh dying in in such a lot um young uh young age uh and with the wrestlers is is not not even only the uh the performance enhancing drugs but the problem is also that uh sometimes they just have to use stimulating drugs uh to to just because they're always on uh on on the road and always touring around uh uh so and they always have to perform so it's

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  also a lot about um some drugs to just uh stay uh be be able to to perform and then also uh uh pain is a factor I think so they also use a lot of painkillers and and stuff like that so it's it's a really unhealthy lifestyle they have.

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  A lot of a lot of them have so I checked those and um because I was uh I was trying to orient myself and trying to find a new um challenge uh to a new thing that uh to go for and I thought okay wrestling is not cool I don't want to die so so uh so I just

• 1:01:07Rich Roll?

  Plus it wasn't really like cool period anymore anyway like that period had kind of come and gone right like wrestling had its moment but that was kind of in the eighties.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  That that's right but but for me it wasn't for me.

• 1:01:19Rich Roll?

  It was still very much alive.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Because the I mean the funny thing was I wasn't even following it that that was the reason why I was so shocked that a lot of them died because I wasn't following it uh for such a long time but remembering uh um the the the old times I was just as enthusiastic so I thought okay probably it would be cool to get back to that.

• 1:01:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're stuck in nineteen eighty nine still.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Uh uh I don't in a in a certain way so um yeah so after uh after realizing that uh it was so bad with with all those guys uh I thought okay wrestling isn't the thing so let's go for strongman uh because I was also when I was a kid I was also a big fan of strongman uh and I I would never have when I when I started um lifting weights I would never have the feeling that uh I could end up myself as a strongman. Because normally those guys are huge. They're giants. They're like.

• 1:02:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're physically tall. So how tall are you?

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, I think, uh, in, in feet. I don't know, actually.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  I think they're about five, five four, five five, something like that, maybe?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, something around that. It's one, one seventy centimeters.

• 1:02:38Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, but let's, let's, hold on one second here. So let's put a pin in Strongman and I wanted to find that and, and really flush that out. But you breezed by one very kind of salient point, which is you made this decision to go vegetarian. And you kind of brushed it off and went on to the next thing. So, so, you know, what, what was the motivation behind that?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  It was, uh, in the, in the last weeks, uh, before I, uh, got, uh, got into university.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  And the whole thing started, uh, with, with a thinking process, with an internal, uh, thinking process where,

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  I just realized that throughout my life, I, I'd been quite compassionate with animals. And in a way that I perceived animals as pretty much the same, made of the same stuff that we are made of. So when, when I saw animals suffering, it was for me the same thing as seeing a children suffering or, or another human being suffering.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  Just built into your DNA, just naturally your whole life you've done that, like have an extra sensitivity?

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  I mean, when I was really, uh, a small child, I hadn't, uh, I would kill some ants and stuff like that. So, so it, it, it came up.

• 1:03:52Rich Roll?

  Right, right. But I mean, just, just by anecdotal, you know, a little anecdotal story, we just, we just took the train today from the Frankfurt Book Fair about, you know, almost maybe a little over an hour to where we're staying. And we got off the train platform and it was Julia and myself and one other and, and you were with us. And suddenly we turned around and said, where's Patrick? We couldn't find you. And then you, you showed up and you said, oh, I saw, you know, I saw a bird on the platform. I wanted to make sure, I, I wanted to see if he was dead or, or whether he was suffering still.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's.

• 1:04:22Rich Roll?

  Like, that's not something that like the average person would do. Like, I didn't even notice the bird.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's something probably where I'm a little bit special. Like, uh, for, uh, I mean, if, if I see, uh, a little worm or something on the floor, uh, in, in the train, like, uh, once, uh, I, I saw a really very, very, very small caterpillar.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Uh, you couldn't even, it was so small, you couldn't almost even see it. It was really like, uh, probably like an ant or so.

• 1:04:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  And a little, uh, green thing, uh, and it was on the floor and it was obvious, uh, if I don't put it up, it would just be killed by someone. Yeah, and it was a full bus. So what I did was I got on the floor and everyone was looking at me. What is that idiot doing there? So I tried to, uh, get it in, in, in a way on my hand without killing it. And that's, that's really.

• 1:05:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just touching it, you can smush it, right?

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So, so it was already a big, it was already a heavy task to, to get it from the floor without killing it. I use a, a piece of paper. Then I got out of the bus, uh, in the middle of nowhere where, where I really didn't want to go to. Uh, uh, got, uh, to, to, um, to a place where, where there was a little bit gra- grass and so on. And I tried to save it. So, um, but that's how I see the world. So, um, for, for me, I just think that small little thing wants to live too. So, um, it's like, or, or sometimes I just think, um, um, if you perceive us humans from, from a much higher perspective,

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  we're like little ants too on this big planet. So, um, if I don't have any pity with this small little thing, why should some higher being like, I mean, some people believe in that. I, I'm a, um, atheist. So, um, I, I don't believe in any deity or, or anything, but some, some people believe. And then I think, okay, why are they, um, um, expecting some higher being to have pity with us? If you don't have pity with this little world.

• 1:06:35Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and pity might not even be the right word. It's more like compassion, right? Cause pity kind of implies you feel sorry for them.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:41Rich Roll?

  Um, yeah, that's interesting. And that, I mean, where do you, like, where does that come from? You know, I mean, you know, one thing I didn't know about you was your father and your, and your sister passing away and, and, and, and was it in the same car accident?

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Rich Roll?

  It was. Okay. So, do you remember that? I mean, I can't help but think perhaps, you know, the pain of that experience might have informed this, you know, sort of compassion or perspective.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Um, I don't really know. Um, I think, uh, the.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  In a way, I'm just a little bit different. Uh, and I think it it uh, there's a lot of ingredients to that that that caused this being different and.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  But as a psych, somebody who studied psychology.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  If you had to diagnose yourself.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, that that's why I said it's it's a lot of ingredients is and one of those uh, might be that I lost my dad so um, so early. Um, and also, uh, what what happened is um, uh, I was a single child after that. So um, and also my mom uh, had had to work. So I would be alone for for quite, quite uh, long uh, long time every day. Um, my grandma being being the one who was uh, with me at home. So um, um, so when I was like uh, nine years old or ten years old.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  I would think about stuff that normally uh, um, children my age wouldn't think of. Like uh, I would, I would uh, think a lot about the universe and why we are here. And if there is something like um, this this concept of uh, uh, evil, good and evil. I would think a lot about that. So when I was nine years old or so, uh, I would ask my mom, uh, my mom. Um, if uh, what's um, decides uh, who who we are. If that's genetics and experience, how can somebody be evil?

• 1:08:48Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Because none of those, you you don't choose your genetics, you don't choose the experiences that you do.

• 1:08:53Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  So how can someone be evil? Stuff like that, so so I was a little bit strange.

• 1:08:58Rich Roll?

  Don't ask me questions. Yeah.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's that's how it was.

• 1:09:02Rich Roll?

  Like asking these like, super intense, you know, questions of the universe.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so so I I was a little bit strange as a child already. Um, and um, I mean, one reason was uh, that I was alone because I lost my uh, dad and I lost uh, my my sister. Uh, so early and also I had to cope with the situation of of losing them. And not really, I was four years old, so I uh, wasn't really able to um, understand what what really happened. So it it's pretty um.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Pretty much kickstarted this whole uh thinking uh a lot thing that that I had in me. And then another uh ingredients would be um that um I grew up in this country where war was happening. And uh I was only um so the only people around me were my mom and my grandma. So there was no other men um that I could relate to when when things uh were getting uh out of hand. For example, um when when we we would be bombarded. And then everyone was afraid and then screaming and everything. Um and I had all these situations where I

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  had to find a way to uh um to handle and and cope with with with my little uh psyche.

• 1:10:25Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a lack of control, right? There's all these all this chaos happening around you and and tragedy. And you have no ability to, you know, sort of control that situation. And so it's it's interesting then comparing that to to, you know, strength training in the gym or bodybuilding. That's something that you can control completely, you know. You put this weight on, you lift it, this is the result that you get, you eat this much food. Like it's it's very much almost like uh it could be an obsessive compulsive exercise in trying to control your small you little universe.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's exactly where it came from. The the the origin was this lack of control in my childhood. Uh and then uh the feeling uh that you get when uh as soon as you realize that you can control your body and you can control it fully uh by deciding what you want to do with it. And then just make it work as uh as you want it. So that was the origin of that. Um and also um having all these situations where I saw other people in distress and and uh in panic uh when when something happened. Um I al- also had this urge of being able to to help in a way.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  I really wanted to help and then at the same point I was just just a little child. So I couldn't do anything. So I would have these daydreams of.

• 1:11:46Rich Roll?

  The rescuer.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, of I would like dream of situations where something bad happens and then I I'm I'm able to help.

• 1:11:53Rich Roll?

  You get to be the superhero.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  So that's probably something that relates to this this compassion thing for for animals and so on. But but I think at at the end of the day, um, I think this perceiving um other other living beings as uh equal to us. That's really something that comes naturally. I I don't think that there's uh any experiences or or anything in my childhood. That really relates to that uh special thing.

• 1:12:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  I think that's just because, I mean, I never found a reason to not think that they're the same. So I think that's that's that's probably the most important part.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  And were you as a as a younger person before you decided to go vegetarian, that must have caused you some consternation to be eating these, the, you know, the meat. And I you must have just you rationalize that by saying, well, I have to because that's what I need to do to be alive and healthy.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  No, that's the shocking part of it. The shocking part of it was that up to two thousand and five, I didn't even realize that there was something going wrong. Uh, and the problem is when you're eating something, you don't see the animal. I mean, uh, and and and that was exactly what happened before I decided to go vegetarian. So what I realized is that there was this complete um um contradiction uh in in my behavior and in the way that I perceive the world. So when I would see an animal suffering, I would instantly have the urge to help. Um, and it would uh.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  So I would like um have some some birds with with broken legs or anything.

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  You're just always bringing animals home to the house as a kid.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  At that time, I uh I had um I wasn't at home anymore, so I was I was living with my ex-girlfriend at their uh at their house. And um so we would both bring a lot of animals home. I would then take care of them and then uh set them free uh when when after helping them. Um and what I just realized was it doesn't make any sense to put uh time and energy in helping one animal and then at the same time eating another animal.

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  And that's so straightforward. And it was so shocking that it took me like twenty six years to get to the point to to see the contradiction. Um but once I started thinking about it, there was actually no other way than to say, okay, I have to stop this. Um so that was the point and and the the the most important uh question for me was. Would I eat it if I would have to kill it? And the answer was no. And then I thought it's what I do is just dishonest because.

• 1:14:44Rich Roll?

  Right, because ethically, you're just abdicating that decision to somebody else as a rationalization and saying, well, I'm not killing it, but but by proxy, you really are.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and uh the the bad part of it is uh that you're doing the whole thing unconsciously uh unconsciously consciously. So you you most of the people, I think I would say ninety percent of people um would actually have the same problem I had at that point. But as soon as you go to the uh to the grocery store and you you get all those animal products, you don't see the actual being behind the product.

• 1:15:18Rich Roll?

  Of course not.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  You just see this packaged piece of whatever.

• 1:15:23Rich Roll?

  It's specifically designed to prevent you from from seeing that or being in any way connected at the process of what delivered that meat to the grocery store in that nicely, you know, cellophane-wrapped package.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Rich Roll?

  Because most people, you're you're you're extraordinarily sensitive, but most people, everybody, I think, is inherently compassionate and has.

• 1:15:43Rich Roll?

  sensitivity, right? So anybody who would actually kind of walk, you know, with the animal through that whole process from beginning to end would be horrified. And that's why there are ag gag laws and all these sort of, sort of structures built up to prevent the consumer from seeing or in any way being connected to that process. Because the more connected we are, the more we will realize like, you know, what are we doing? This is insanity.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, this whole culture of eating animals comes from, from, from a point in time where it was part of surviving. And the, the thing is, we don't need it anymore to survive. And that's, that's really the, the problem that occurs as soon as you start thinking about it.

• 1:16:32Rich Roll?

  There's a cultural attachment to this misconception that we are obligate omnivores, that, that at a very fundamental level, that we need animal products in order to, to thrive, right? And, and your experience and my experience has been quite the opposite, actually. And when you have that moment and you realize like, wait a minute, like, not only do I not need it, like, I'm actually feeling better and performing better without it. It's like taking the blue pill in the matrix. And suddenly this whole sort of world opens up to you where you start to really see things with a little bit more objectivity and clarity. And you begin to question like, well, what's really going on here?

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And what you, what you then see is that we're doing a lot of things in, in everyday life without thinking about it and without questioning it.

• 1:17:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. It's not just this issue.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a lot of things. And a lot of things where you really, before you get out of, out of the matrix, you think it's just natural. It's just what I do because I want to do it. And then you find out, no, it's, I'm just programmed to do all these things by culture. And as soon as you step, step one, one step back and then have a look on, on the whole thing from a little bit higher perspective, you, you just see all those things.

• 1:17:55Rich Roll?

  So what would another example, what an example of that be for you?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  A lot of things that people do to each other. Like, for instance, how you manage a relationship. Like this.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  For instance, we are used to have a relationship to another human being, same or a different sex. And we have this feeling of that that can always be a relationship of two people. It's actually completely cultural. It could be twenty people loving each other or anything. And it's a lot of things that we do. Like, and the funniest part of it is that it's really fundamental things. It's not just things that, like, I don't know, like smoking or anything that is not really.

• 1:18:56Rich Roll?

  Watching too much TV or something like that.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not things like that. But when it comes to the relationship to other human beings and when it comes to eating, that's things that have to do with with surviving. And that they are really the most fundamental things in in in life. And we still have no clue why we do it the way we do it.

• 1:19:18Rich Roll?

  That's so true.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  And and it's really a big eye opener as when you get to the point where you really see that you're doing all this stuff just but just because you're programmed to.

• 1:19:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  And it's so great because then all these new ways open up. Like, you you you find yourself in in a big room where before that, you you had to just roll on this one rail. And it was only one direction. And then you find all these new directions or all these new possibilities.

• 1:19:51Rich Roll?

  Right. Gestalt is a German word, right? It's the gestalt of just the sort of, you know, cultural imperative of, you know, as a this is what you do. And then when you're this age, you do this. And then you go to high school and then you go to college and then you work and you rent an apartment and you lease a car. Wait a minute, what is going on? You know what I mean? What's really insane here? That's, that's, that's so interesting and funny. So, alright, so do you have this epiphany in like one lightning bolt? Or is this a gradual progression of realizing, you know what? Like I just, like, there's too much dissonance with, you know, between my value system and, and how I'm behaving. I need to align these a little bit better.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  No, it, it was really a, um, a, a clear cut at that moment. Uh, but it had no, um, external factor. Like, like some people watch, watch a film. Like, I know a lot of people who watch Earthlings for, for example, and then they go vegan or anything. But, uh, for me, there was no external factor. It was really just this one moment where, where I just became aware of, uh, of the problem. Um, and

• 1:20:59Rich Roll?

  And that was it, just boom.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was it. So, so I made the decision. It didn't really, uh, work out well, uh, on, on the first run. So what happens was after two days, um, of no meat, um, we, we would go out. And then after going out, um, and after not eating for quite a long, uh, time, we would get to a place with, with our friends, uh, where they had pretty much nothing that was without meat.

• 1:21:28Rich Roll?

  Right, only sausages.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Stuff like that.

• 1:21:31Rich Roll?

  I've heard Germany.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  And then they had, uh, salami pizza.

• 1:21:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  So, um, and then I thought, okay, what, what am I going to do now? I'm dying, I'm starving here.

• 1:21:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  So, uh, at the end, uh, I, I ordered a salami pizza. And then I took the salami off the pizza and I ate the pizza. And then I was, what am I doing here? It's, it's, it's already happened. So, so I thought, okay, this is helping no one. So uh the the first try ended after those two days with eating the salami pizza. And then the day after I would get back to it and then it went on for six years.

• 1:22:12Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Rich Roll?

  And so and and and this is the same time where you're looking for a physical challenge also and you start to get interested in the strong man stuff.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  This is probably six months uh or or a few months before that, before I uh was looking for for the physical challenge.

• 1:22:29Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  So like several months before uh starting to think about strong man, I uh I made this decision and and I went vegetarian.

• 1:22:38Rich Roll?

  Right. And did you think at that time, I mean, were you perceiving yourself as an athlete? Did you did you contemplate the impact that that might have on your ability to perform in the gym?

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  No, and that was uh the um that was actually uh uh the the the lucky chance that I had. Because um I was totally um um expecting my performance levels to go down. Because uh to the twelve years before that, I had always trained with with and I with a lot of animal products, especially a lot of meat. So I thought, okay, this is going to.

• 1:23:16Rich Roll?

  Right. Are you drinking like raw eggs like Rocky and doing all that kind of stuff?

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Not so much. I was uh more into dairy products. I would like drink ten liters of of milk and and stuff like that. Um so so I thought, okay, um this is going to uh be a problem for my performance, but I don't care so much because at that point I was just training for fun. So I thought, okay, it's it's no problem.

• 1:23:39Rich Roll?

  That's okay. Like, that's a bargain I'm comfortable with.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what then happened was the exact opposite. Like in the six months after that, um I was doing so well. I gained five kilos uh of of muscle mass or of body weight. Um I I was getting stronger than I was before.

• 1:23:59Rich Roll?

  That's the interesting thing because in the gym you can you can calibrate it exactly. You know exactly what your numbers are, right? So those numbers went up. I mean, did you vary the kind of training that you were doing? So was the only variable the change in the diet?

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's that's the cool thing because.

• 1:24:15Rich Roll?

  Did you lose weight and then put it back on? Like we were talking on the train, like I had David Carter on the on the podcast, the 300 pound vegan football NFL football player. And he lost a bunch of weight and then had to put it on. But then ultimately he ended up much stronger in the gym and faster, more agile, like across the board, like all his numbers were better. But but he had like a little dip first and then had to kind of, you know, sort of build the foundation again.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I hadn't. I hadn't anything like that because four years before that point, I was just training for fun. So it was pretty much the all those four years were plateau. And the only thing that changed was the diet. The only thing that changed was that I got rid of the the meat. And what really happened is, I mean, you you won't gain any weight just by giving up meat. What really happened is because I was not eating meat, my my appetite was much more because I had this feeling of I had to get. What I was eating wouldn't fill me up.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  So I was like, I have to eat more. And that's something that's really crucial because meat is really giving your your stomach a lot of work. And when you get rid of that, you're just you're just more hungry. So you will eat a lot of more stuff. And then I just made sure that that I ate good stuff. And so I gained weight and the performance levels went up. So the the reason for the for the performance gains was not so much.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Giving up meat by itself, but it was because giving up meat, I had much more appetite. And I had much more room, so to say, for for all the good stuff that I then consumed.

• 1:26:07Rich Roll?

  Interesting. So so was there a moment in the gym where you were like, wait a minute, what's going on? Like I just pushed. You know, you know, X number of kilograms or pounds like that's never happened before. Like what, what, you know, did, how did that look for you? Was there a specific day in the gym where it hit you like, wow, this is actually making me better?

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  No, it was more gradual because it was coming gradually over this six month period. It was not so much this, um, this experience of, of having that one point where you realize what is going on. But it was much, much more just looking back those six months that I saw, okay, something went really, really good in the last six months. And then I obviously realized, okay, that's since I stopped eating meat.

• 1:27:00Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and so was the kind of gains that you were experiencing, was that related to this renewed desire to find a challenge? Like, did that give you like a spark of like enthusiasm, you know, after sort of being on a plateau for a while?

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  No, because I, I gave up meat in 2005. And then six months later was, was the point where I started thinking about, uh, looking for, for a new challenge. And I think it was pretty much vice versa. It was, I realized that I was doing so well, so I thought I have to use this for something. Because I was feeling like, okay, this is, probably this will go on. And this will open up some perspectives on, on being competitive at, at something. So I was looking for new challenges and I wasn't motivated to do any bodybuilding anymore. So I was just checking if, what I could use this for.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  And that's where we get to the point where I was looking for the wrestlers and then

• 1:28:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  came up with Strongman.

• 1:28:02Rich Roll?

  All right. So explain what the world of strongman competitions is.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Strongman is a very young sport. Um, and it's been established in uh ninety seventy seven. And it's, it all started with this TV show called The World's Strongest Man.

• 1:28:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say like, it's, it's like, it hearkens back to like the seventies. I remember as a kid watching these shows, even like Battle of the Network Stars. They would have them do these crazy, you know, like, you know, chopping trees down and, and carrying logs and things like that.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Rich Roll?

  Pulling cars.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Yes, and, and the reason that they had all these uh new uh events uh was, was quite uh, quite straightforward. Because um they wanted to find out who is really the strongest man in the world. And for finding that out, they had to take uh athletes from different sports uh who consider themselves to be strong. Put them together and then have um some ki- kind of competition where they can, they could compete against each other. And to not make it unfair and, and not giving any of these athletes um an advantage over the others. They invented new, new types of, of uh strength tests. And, and that's pretty much the reason why you have all these crazy things.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Because um, so you, you would have weightlifters, powerlifters, um bodybuilders, wrestlers. All kinds of uh um strong guys. Um, and so, so no one would have an advantage that would uh have events like.

• 1:29:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Lifting, uh not lifting, um yeah, li- lifting cars or um or pulling trucks. Or carry.

• 1:29:49Rich Roll?

  But it's like, it's, it's like gymnastics, right? You have a series of different uh events and then you, it's like a point system, right? And you have the overall like sort of winner who can kind of, or like the decathlon, right? Where there's all these different contests and the overall winner is the person who kind of scores the best across the mall.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, that's, that's the way it's measured.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  While in other sports like running or anything, you have this one discipline and then you can just measure the speed or whatever, or how long they jump or anything, or the distance. And then you have a winner. With Strongman, it is always different events and they are very different from each other. So one is for speed and I mean, they're all for strength. But in one, you might want to be very quick also. And then the other event is probably just throwing something. So to make all these things comparable and to have a system where it all fits together,

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  you just get points by the way that you place in the event. So that's the reason why the sport is so... The perfect way to be competitive at Strongman is if you are quite good in all events. You don't have to be crazy strong on one event because it doesn't give you any extra points if you like throw the thing away, double the distance like everyone else does. You just have to win it or you just have to play.

• 1:31:41Rich Roll?

  Right, so you just want to... Basically, what you want to do, because you're doing so many events, is be the best but conserve as much energy as possible for the next event. So you want to just win by the narrowest of margins, just like the way that you were trying to cut weight perfectly.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and sometimes you don't even have to win. Sometimes you can win a competition without winning any of the events, but just by being in the top three in all events.

• 1:32:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's the way like the Tour de France works, like a stage race in cycling. The GC, the overall winner, you know, he may not win a single stage of the whole thing, but is sort of placing the highest day in and day out. And is there, are there like style points too? Like how good you look lifting the car?

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  No, there are, and I think it's a

• 1:32:27Rich Roll?

  Technique?

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  It's really

• 1:32:29Rich Roll?

  There should be, right?

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it should.

• 1:32:30Rich Roll?

  There should be a beard category, because you would definitely win that one.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  That would be a good, good one. No, um, there isn't anything like that, but it would totally make sense because

• 1:32:41Rich Roll?

  They probably, a lot of those guys have beards too, right? There would be stiff competition in the beard category. But I think you would take it.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably I would have the most special beard.

• 1:32:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  So, so the thing is, um, um, now you have this competition, which actually started as a TV show. So you have this unique mixture of, um, of, of a sport, of a real sport where you really have to perform. Um, and, and, and a, and a show that is really meant to entertain people. And you have all these

• 1:33:18Rich Roll?

  Which brings it back to wrestling.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  It's kind of like that, right? You have to be a showman.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that there is some, some, some part of it is, is still

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  So there's a style aspect to it. Um, maybe not scored in points, but certainly present in the sort of ethos of it.

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, at the end of the day, you also, the, the one thing is you want to win a competition. But then the other thing is you also want to be popular. You, you want to be loved by the people. So, uh, of course, if you put, uh, put out a, a big show and, and you entertain people, they're going to like that. So, um, you, you have a lot of, uh, um, personalities there, um, who do that in a, in a great way and, and who are very charismatic. Um, and that's part of the game, but you don't get any points for that.

• 1:34:05Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, so, so the whole thing began in, uh, nineteen seventy seven, and then it, um, went on for, for several years. And with the years, um, um, the whole thing grew. So it was then not only, um, the, the World's Strongest Men, uh, annually, but it was also, uh, qualifying, uh, series to, to get to, to get there. And then, uh, it started to, uh, To have babies all around the world and and so all countries will would have their national championships and so on to get qualified to get to the series and so on.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  So it it grew a lot until two thousand and sixty, uh, two thousand and six, uh, where I started to um to scan the internet for.

• 1:34:57Rich Roll?

  And you're like, this looks good.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  For the whole thing.

• 1:34:59Rich Roll?

  I could do this, this could be my thing.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  The the main aspect was that I found out that they had begun, one year before, they had begun uh to establish a lightweight category.

• 1:35:09Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  And this lightweight category was up to one hundred and five kilos.

• 1:35:13Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Um, and that was my body weight. And I thought, okay, um, the reason why I have haven't tried that is because I didn't want to compete against guys who are like double my weight.

• 1:35:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like three hundred pounds.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  So so I thought, okay, um, I wouldn't have any chance to to beat those guys. But if I have a category who is um my body weight and and um so none of the other athletes is going to be bigger than me, probably I would have have a chance to be competitive. And and I'm always quite uh, so i- if I do something, I really want to be good at it. If if I don't see a chance to be good at it, I won't do it. So so I thought, okay, this might be a chance for me to make use of my gains in the la- in the last six months. Yeah, so um I would um contact uh um the president of the of the German Federation, uh, German uh Strongman Federation, and as it is not such a big sport, you actually

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  have the chance to to get through to those people.

• 1:36:14Rich Roll?

  Right. Whoa, somebody called.

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So so I uh just uh asked him, um, I just sent him a message and and told him my my numbers and everything and just asked him if he would think that it's realistic to um to try to come to one of the uh newcomer competitions. Uh, and uh then I also met him in a gym and uh we we talked together and he was, he thought, uh, he even said he thinks that uh I could be very competitive, actually, uh, in the lightweight categories because uh there wasn't such such a um lot of athletes uh who who would. Be much stronger than me. So, so I thought, okay, I I give it a try. And in two thousand and six, um, I had my first uh

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  competition and did several newcomer competition. And I also tried uh to get to the nationals in in the lightweight category.

• 1:37:11Rich Roll?

  Alright, so hold on a second. So, so tell me about the first newcomer compet- the first competition. Did you just, did you just go in there and nail it? Like, what happened?

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  No, um, it, I I don't know if I even, did I even win my uh bodyweight category? Uh, I mean, one thing that that I found out was there were certain events where I could really destroy anyone. And that's pretty much something that stayed uh un- until today. So there are certain events where I'm really, really good and I can compete with anyone in the world. Uh, and that's mo- mostly um events that that um we call uh overhead events where you have to lift something over your head. Like.

• 1:37:56Rich Roll?

  Shocking that it's called an overhead event.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  It's like a keg lift or the log lift.

• 1:38:05Rich Roll?

  Right. But I guess some of the other ones, though, I would imagine involve like certain new skills that like would take some time to learn.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And and some of them uh just uh, you just need a certain type of uh uh of anatomy uh that I didn't have. Like uh, when when you have the so-called atlas stones, uh, that's round uh con- concrete balls that you have to grab and and put on a platform. And if you don't have long arms.

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  You're in.

• 1:38:35Rich Roll?

  It's not happening.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  You're in trouble. I mean, it happens, but it's really much, much more uh work uh than for someone who is just tall and just grabs them and and gets his arms uh around the whole thing. And you really have to try to do it uh just having your arms on the sides.

• 1:38:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got you.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  So, so um. Being being as short as I am, it's in some part of the of the things that we have to do is it's an advantage and in others it's

• 1:39:07Rich Roll?

  Right, exactly. Well, that's why there's so many different events, right? In the balance, who's going to come out on top after all said and done? Because no one's going to be the best at every single one of them.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. And that's what separates it from, for example, weightlifting. Because some people say, okay, a weightlifter is a strong guy. But actually, a weightlifter is a specialist for what they have to do.

• 1:39:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  They are really good at doing what they do.

• 1:39:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and in the decathlon, the guy who is the best at the shot put or the hammer throw isn't going to win the mile.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it. And the purpose at Strongman is to have a perfect overall test of all types of strength. So at the end of the day, you get a winner who is really overall a really, really strong guy. That's what we try to establish. Yeah, so at least in the first year, what I was able to do was I broke the German the German record in my weight category at the log lift. So I already

• 1:40:14Rich Roll?

  That's got to be competitive. There's got to be a lot of strong German guys that like to lift logs.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  I mean, overall, in Strongman, you have, it's funny because it's almost like you have certain eras where certain parts of the world are quite dominant at Strongman. It begins in the first years with the Americans, because the whole show begins

• 1:40:44Rich Roll?

  It started there.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it started in America, so

• 1:40:46Rich Roll?

  Quickly, I would imagine Eastern Europe starts to

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  There's something between. Eastern Europe comes in the 90s.

• 1:40:52Rich Roll?

  Ah.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  But between that and the 80s, the northern countries, like Norway and also Finland and all the Scandinavian countries, they would, and especially Iceland. So up to date, Iceland had the most winners overall in Edwards from

• 1:41:16Rich Roll?

  Wow, why do you think that is?

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  Um, if you look at the statistics, you see that the Icelandic people are uh the tallest and the heaviest people on earth. And I think that helps.

• 1:41:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. A little bit.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:41:31Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  And also.

• 1:41:33Rich Roll?

  Explanation solved, right?

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:41:36Rich Roll?

  They're really strong and big there.

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also.

• 1:41:39Rich Roll?

  And there's nothing to do when it's dark out all the time.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Oh, actually, they're really cultivated people.

• 1:41:45Rich Roll?

  No, I know. I'd love to go to Reykjavik. I've never been.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Uh, I I'm really fascinated by Iceland. Never been there, but I really want to go there someday.

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  Me too.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Um, so Iceland is really cool and um one thing um that that also plays a role, I think, is is this Viking culture. So so it's this, I mean, i- if you have a culture where it is cool to be strong and if as a Viking, I think it it is cool to to be a strong guy. Um, that that helps, of course, and in Germany, you don't have that. In Germany, Germans perceive themselves more as intellectuals and and um that's sometimes really a a problem because um as a strength athlete, some sometimes you're just just a freak. So um and if you experience that, that it really doesn't help you in society to be strong,

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  it probably uh prevents a lot of people to trying to go for competitions.

• 1:42:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I, yeah, I get that.

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Um, and also what what plays a role is uh that that you have some sports that uh build the basis for uh what what you then uh build upon to to get to the point uh to be competitive as a strong man. Like in in America, you have that with with football. Uh, so most of the football players have a quite good base uh that they can build upon to to get into strong man. Um, and in the Eastern European countries, you would have all those weightlifters and and wrestlers. They have the perfect base to um to to build upon. Um.

• 1:43:20Speaker 01

  The Icelandic and the northern people there, like, like I said, they're just big and and strong, that's it. But then, like I said, in the nineties, you get to the Eastern European guys, they were quite dominant in the nineties and also up to date, they're still quite dominant. But in the last, I would say, ten years, England and, and the United States are back in the game. So you have guys like Brian Shaw, who won, won the title, the, the world's, I think, three times now, and Derek Poundstone, who was more type of guy comparable to me,

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  not, not so tall, but, but really built very, very steady and, and a great overhead guy, overhead guy too. So, yeah, so it, it seems to, to, to have a certain, certain eras where

• 1:44:17Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  The dominant guys come from certain parts of Europe.

• 1:44:22Rich Roll?

  So, so you're introduced to this, you do a couple of these newcomer competitions, and you kind of work your way up as you kind of develop this skill set, and, and where does it click in, like, hey, you're gonna be kind of like a top guy?

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  In the second year, in the second year, I won my weight category for the first time.

• 1:44:40Rich Roll?

  In Germany?

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  In Germany. So it was 2007. So, and then in 2009, I won it again. In 2008, I had a bad year. And now the important part of it is that when you're competing on, on national level in Germany, it means that you're competing at the same competition with, with the big guys. So it's not that, there's no nationals for the lightweight guys, and there's special nationals for the big guys.

• 1:45:14Rich Roll?

  So the weight classification doesn't come in until you go to the international competitions?

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's one thing, and another thing is

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  You have a, you, you get a title for your division. But you still have to do the same thing that the heavyweight guys do. And then after the competition, you have like two different uh ranking systems. So you get ranked in your body weight category and you also get ranked in the overall category.

• 1:45:45Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  So you have like two uh chances of winning the title.

• 1:45:48Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  If, if you're a freak of nature, you could win both titles.

• 1:45:52Rich Roll?

  I see. So, so are you saying that in, that, that when you, it was in two thousand nine, you win the German national championships? But you're actually beating guys that are much bigger than you.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's why.

• 1:46:03Rich Roll?

  Ordinarily would not be in your weight class.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  That's what I would try to get to. So what happened was in, in both years that I won my category. I was fifth in the overall. So it meant that only four guys were uh, were uh able, four of the big guys were able to beat me.

• 1:46:21Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Um, and in two thousand and ten uh or in two thousand and nine, it made me think of. If I wouldn't have to stick to the body weight. Uh, I thought probably I would be able to beat those four guys too. If I could put on another ten kilos or so of body weight and try to be um stronger than I was at that point. Because at that point, I was already on a, on a point where I really have to force my body weight to uh um. To not, to not get any heavier. So I thought, okay. If I unleash uh the, these uh extra uh kilos, uh probably will help to, to beat those guys too.

• 1:47:00Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  Um, which I didn't uh have, I didn't consider um myself of, as, as being able to win. German nationals um in the, in the heavyweight category before that. But then I thought, okay, I, I will give it a try in next year.

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  Right. So screw the weight classification. I'm just gonna go for it.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:20Rich Roll?

  It doesn't matter how big these guys are. I'm gonna beat them at their own game.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I will just, just try. So.

• 1:47:27Rich Roll?

  Alright, so how'd it go?

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  I wasn't so self-confident, but I thought, okay, I, I'll try it.

• 1:47:32Rich Roll?

  And this is two thousand and ten?

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, this two thousand and ten.

• 1:47:35Rich Roll?

  Alright.

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:47:36Rich Roll?

  And you're still, are you still vegetarian at this point?

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I, I had it in.

• 1:47:41Rich Roll?

  You haven't gone vegan yet?

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  No, I haven't gone, gone vegan, but I'm a vegetarian. For five years at that point and uh what um so what what happens next is um. I will go back for for bodybuilding in two thousand and after two thousand and nine.

• 1:48:00Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  And in in that uh time time span that that I prepared for another bodybuilding competition. That the whole thing was about uh. I just wanted to find out if I would be able uh after being a strong man and being quite out of shape for a bodybuilder. Uh I was just uh curious if I uh would be able to get back into shape.

• 1:48:24Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Um so I th- I thought, okay, um I compete in summer for uh for Strongman. And I could uh compete in winter for bodybuilding.

• 1:48:34Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  And then after the winter, I could just get back to.

• 1:48:37Rich Roll?

  Go back to Strongman.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that was the plan.

• 1:48:40Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  Um and um. At that time, I uh I had a problem with with with concentrating. And uh I had for for quite a long time, I had some health issues too. Uh and one of them being uh that I had a um um. Constant low uh blood level of of iron.

• 1:49:04Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  And I couldn't uh figure out uh what the problem was, so I would uh get supplements, iron supplements, and it wouldn't help anything. After I went vegan, I found out that it was all the dairy products. Because dairy products, they they block your iron intake. And that was also the reason that the supplements didn't help. Because it doesn't matter so much how how much iron you take, as long as you have substances that block the iron intake.

• 1:49:32Rich Roll?

  That you can't absorb it, they're not bioavailable to you.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:35Rich Roll?

  What is it about the dairy that blocks the iron absorption?

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  Um. I don't know what what it exactly is, but uh there there's uh uh several types of uh of foods that um do that, uh one of them being uh dairy, uh another is uh black tea.

• 1:49:51Rich Roll?

  Um. Yeah, the cat the tannins in in in coffee and tea can can do that as well.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  And uh what it is exactly in dairy products, I don't know, but but it's one of the one of the foods that uh that does that. Um. But I didn't know at that point, and uh the problem was um that that I had all these issues. And I tried a lot of supplements and everything and didn't help anything, so.

• 1:50:13Rich Roll?

  Right. And you can't be a strong man if you're anemic. That's a problem.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:50:17Rich Roll?

  You must have had doctors saying you gotta start eating meat again.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  That wasn't so much the problem because my performances were were quite good. Uh and then also um. I I wasn't really anemic, but it I was always on the on the bottom level on of of of okay. So it uh it was not that uh I really felt bad or anything. I was still uh able to to compete and everything. But um what worried me the most was this uh problems uh of of concentrating. Um. And I didn't know if there was any connection between the whole thing. So um. At that point, I I came to a point where um my mom actually um um convinced me

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  that not eating meat was the problem. And uh at that point, um I thought, okay, I've tried all different things.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  None of them uh seems to help, so I'm going to try to uh get back to eating meat for for a certain um um time period and see what happens. It was like ten months or so where uh where I started to to eat meat again. It really felt totally um um.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Awkward, because if you're like for five years, if you're uh away from that, really felt unnatural to me. Um, and that's why I gave it up after after ten months. Um, the also the iron deficiency uh didn't uh didn't, it it didn't help anything with the iron deficiency.

• 1:51:51Rich Roll?

  Interesting. So you started eating meat again, but it didn't solve the low iron problem.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  No, it it didn't solve anything, actually. So after ten ten months, I I gave it up. Um, and um, and that was pretty much the time uh period where I also um, uh, prepared for the for the bodybuilding show. So after the bodybuilding show, uh, um, I gave up bodybuilding for the rest of my life. Because also my now uh wife, she told me if I would do that uh, at any time again, she would just leave me because.

• 1:52:26Rich Roll?

  Why?

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Because.

• 1:52:27Rich Roll?

  Is it such an insane lifestyle or?

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the the thing is, we we came together when I was already in the preparation. So uh but I was in the beginning of the preparation. So so what what she, when when we um,

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  when we got together, she just uh met this guy who is in quite good shape and is quite charming and quite a nice guy. Um, and then within the next months, I turned into this hungry, starving monster who is in a ridiculous shape and who who has to do six hours of cardio every day. And then after the the last hours of cardio, I would come or come home and I would be so um, um, so exhausted and and and so done that I would just get rid of all these um, um, soaking wet clothes. And then completely naked, I would just fall into uh uh into my bed.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  And I would just instantly uh um, um, fall into sleep. Because I was completely out of energy.

• 1:53:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  Uh, and and for her, it was just shocking seeing seeing how I was how I was destroying my body on on on that level. So uh she she told me, okay.

• 1:53:45Rich Roll?

  Like no more of that.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  If you do that again, I'm gone. Um, yeah, I I stick to that. So um, so I'd nev- never done any bodybuilding uh after that. Um, and also after the bodybuilding competition, I also was at the point that I said, okay, this meeting eat doesn't make, i- it doesn't feel like that, that's not me. That's, that's so, so I gave that up too. Um, and I got back to to the vegetarian diet. Um, and that was in two thousand and nine. And then two thousand and ten was the first year where uh where I uh got into the heavyweights.

• 1:54:23Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  Um, and at that point, uh going back to the uh to the vegetarian uh uh eating, it also helped gaining weight again. So uh I gained at about, I mean, I was competing on one uh one oh five um in uh in two thousand and nine, but

• 1:54:42Rich Roll?

  Kilograms.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, kilograms. But my actual body weight would be probably one ten or so.

• 1:54:47Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  So I would uh have to cut uh five kilos.

• 1:54:51Rich Roll?

  Right, but not like giant cuts.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  No. Uh, but then in two thousand and ten, I gained at about five kilos. So my actual body weight was one hundred and fifteen.

• 1:55:01Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:55:02Speaker 01

  So uh actually, I was ten kilos heavier than than in the last competition. Um, and it worked out quite well. So in in the first year uh in the heavyweights, I uh became runner up champion.

• 1:55:16Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Uh, uh, at the nationals.

• 1:55:18Rich Roll?

  For all of Germany.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:19Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  For uh for Germany and uh two thousand and eleven was um was my second try. Um, and then I won. In two thousand and eleven, I won the heavyweights.

• 1:55:31Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Um, and what then happened wa- had a lot to do with uh that I decided after uh the competition to go vegan.

• 1:55:39Rich Roll?

  Um.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Um, and it all began by a blog post that I made in my in my web blog, uh where I just wrote that I had won this title and it's the most prestigious title in in in strength sports uh on a national level. So I just, um, yeah, just bragged with uh. Be being able to to get to that point um and uh just enjoyed the um the experience. And then the last sentence that I wrote uh had a tremendous uh impact on my life. And the sentence was, so I have finally proved that it makes you a better athlete being vegetarian. Um hum.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  Um and I I think thousands of of vegetarian people all around the world. They um they quoted that. So you had the quote all over the place uh i- i- in the web uh in in in within like one or two weeks. It pretty much went viral. Um hum. And then the media got uh got me on the radar. So um suddenly uh I had like big uh newspapers uh calling me uh in Germany, big uh TV shows and uh I was guest in all those shows and and talks and everything. And um at that point, I um

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  I became aware of the fact that I was uh through the media able to reach a lot of people and really make a change. Like I I had feedback from from people telling me you have changed my life. Because uh after seeing you on TV, I thought about all all these things. And what I was basically saying um in all those shows was that after going vegetarian and after giving up meat, my experience was that I even got stronger and it's even helped me with performing. So um all these people that were afraid of uh that that felt like, okay, I'm I'm feeling um uh compassionate with animals, but I think I'm going to lose my manliness or or anything. They

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  they they had this um um I I was able to um to take away that uh um that worry from them. Right. Of of losing anything when when they uh get rid of meat. So um so I was getting all these uh feedback. And at that point, I already knew that. Being vegetarian for ethical reasons and out of compassion, it really isn't enough. Because if you take a look on the dairy industry and if you took a look, take a look on how eggs are produced and everything, it's such a lot of disgusting stuff that happens there that you really, if you come from a compassionate point of view, you really

• 1:58:31Speaker 01

  want to not support any of these things too. So the actual answer would be to go vegan. But my problem was that it was not so much about the eggs, because I already was not consuming, I didn't consume a lot of eggs at that point, but I was consuming massive amounts of dairy. And in my worldview at that point, the dairy products were my secret. So, so I thought, okay, that's the reason I'm so strong. And I thought, okay, if I get rid of the dairy, this is not going to work in, in, in any way. I'm not going to be able to maintain what I do now.

• 1:59:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so that's a, that's a moment of consternation. Like that's a, you're suddenly at a, at a sort of fork in the road, right? Because you found yourself to be almost, you know, in certain respects, kind of an overnight celebrity, where suddenly you have this platform and people are looking to you as kind of an ambassador of, of, you know, this, this movement and what it means to be, you know, an ethical vegetarian. And yet here you are, thinking, oh, God, drink all this, you know, like realizing, you know, the sort of truth behind the dairy industry and reconciling that against this idea that that's what's fueling your athletic prowess.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so it was really a problem. And what I thought was, okay, I would love to be, to be, to represent veganism.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  Uh, and for doing that, I would have to go vegan. And then at the same time, I thought, okay, but but what is going to happen? And if I go vegan now, and and I'm now on a very high level of of of uh where you can get competing. Um, and if I fail after going vegan, it's not going to help anything.

• 2:00:19Rich Roll?

  Right, that's not gonna help the movement.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was.

• 2:00:23Rich Roll?

  Potentially hurt the, it could potentially hurt the movement, right?

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely, it would.

• 2:00:26Rich Roll?

  What even, it it raises the stakes for everything that, for that choice that you're gonna make.

• 2:00:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so I was really worried about uh different things. Um, and I thought, okay, if I want to do that, I will first have to do a lot of research and find out how to do it right. At that point, I I didn't even knew um where to get uh any protein from plants. I didn't do anything because uh all the years before, protein was wasn't a a a big matter. I was just drinking all these uh milk and and having like three uh like six pounds of of curd cheese a day.

• 2:01:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:01:07Rich Roll?

  Like whey protein powder, a lot of that?

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of all those things.

• 2:01:11Rich Roll?

  And this is still, we're talking about, this is two thousand ten, right?

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, I mean, at that point, we were two thousand and eleven because I have won the title. I just won the title. So, um, so I'm thinking, uh, what what what will I do next? Um, and I'm starting researching uh what what a vegan diet looks like and if it's doable and if I can uh get to do this. And then at a certain point, I um just make the decision to do it. Because I think, um, okay, um, I know that there is a way. And I know that um I have done all those, like, I I've been able to take all these challenges in uh in in the last years and in uh in all my life. So I'm going to find a way to do it.

• 2:01:59Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:59Speaker 01

  So I make the decision. Um, and the first person that I tell uh that uh the decision I made is my mom.

• 2:02:07Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Before your wife?

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Before my wife.

• 2:02:09Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  My now wife, at that, at that point, she's just my girlfriend. So, so I um tell my mom and she goes completely nuts. She, she, she completely gets out of her mind and uh she's like, okay, I, I was, I was okay with all this stupid uh vegetarian thing. But now you're, you're getting completely, you're getting completely out of control. Because it, it just sound, sounded so extreme to her.

• 2:02:39Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  To not drink any milk, to, to not having any uh animal product. Um, and I thought, okay, I'm, I'm going to try this with uh with my girlfriend.

• 2:02:52Speaker 01

  It might work be uh work out better than this. So, so I told uh Katie what I was planning to do.

• 2:03:01Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  And um, yeah, so uh the same thing happened. She, she goes completely nuts and uh.

• 2:03:09Rich Roll?

  The same thing as when you, when she didn't want you to be a bodybuilder?

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  No, the same thing that happened with my mom.

• 2:03:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, with your mom. I got you. Okay. So. Which is sort of like the other thing.

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:20Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  So, so what happened was uh she, she actually um, um, she actually said uh she, she would even uh break the relationship. Because she, she said, okay, most of the time I'm cooking. So uh I don't actually want to cook these uh strange plant stuff that you want to eat. So, so that was one thing. And then she was uh like, this is so extreme. What is going to be the next step? So she was afraid of me uh going into uh a development where I would uh become an extremist. And, and she literally, she literally uh said, what is the next step? Are you going to uh blow up a butcher or uh?

• 2:04:03Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's a leap, right?

• 2:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:06Rich Roll?

  Right? That's an interesting uh like mental bridge to build when you're coming from a place of compassion. And she's going, and, and she's equating that with a violent extremism.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  And the reason is that uh she's an only war at uh at that moment. So so and and she's only with me for for a year or so. And also, when she got to knew me, uh it was right in this uh uh in this uh ten months where where I was eating meat. So uh she we we got together when she perceived me as a normal, normal person.

• 2:04:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  And then uh I tell her, okay, I've been vegetarian for a long time before and I'm going to go back to that. And she's okay, you have done that, so so she's okay with that.

• 2:04:49Rich Roll?

  But vegan's a whole different thing.

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but vegan is not not good.

• 2:04:53Rich Roll?

  But yeah, I mean, it's interesting that that's perceived as being so extreme. Because, you know, and sort of where I live, it's sort of like, uh, it's kind of like the thing to do now. You know what I mean? Like, uh, is that, but that's not necessarily a German thing. That's more like a mom thing.

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I I think uh it it has uh a lot to do with um um. Also with with with the time it it takes place, because a lot has changed since then. I mean, one part of it is I have been in such a lot of TV shows that I'm like one part of this process that that happens in Germany at the moment, where veganism is growing like mad. And uh my mom or or um Katie, uh if if the same thing would happen now, so if I wouldn't have made the decision uh four years ago, and I wouldn't make it uh today, the thing would be completely different. And also, both of them are uh vegan for more than two years now.

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  Oh, your mom is too?

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they're they're both vegan now. Um, and um so, but even if if uh all of that would take place now, I think the the whole thing would be very different, because such a lot of things had ha- have happened uh in in the last four years. Um, and and in Germany, a lot of development uh went on.

• 2:06:14Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:06:15Rich Roll?

  So you're vegan and you're like, you know, whatever happens in the weight room and the strength stuff is gonna happen, but this is what I'm doing. So then what's the next thing?

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's about that I said, okay, I'm going to make this work. I'm going to find a way to make this work. And what then happens is that I get completely shocked by the results. Because and what I find out is that I have completely lost these six years of being vegetarian. Because all these problems that I had, like the iron deficiency, the heartburn that I had throughout my life, I find out that all these problems come from the dairy, from the massive amounts of dairy that I would consume. And one of my concerns was also that, I mean, there would be two ways to fail.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  The one way would be to do it, to go vegan and then fail at the competition. And the second way would be to try to do it and then fail because I was so addicted to dairy products. So there was these two different ways to fail.

• 2:07:26Rich Roll?

  You would lapse and go back to eating dairy.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So and what that happens is after three weeks or so, I just realized I don't have any craving for dairy anymore. And there was another two months or so.

• 2:07:41Rich Roll?

  But what was that first two weeks like? Like, did you have?

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  Not so bad, too. It was really strange. Yeah, it was strange and awkward. And I even had the feeling of getting weaker. But the good part of it was something that you said earlier. Because I was training, I was able to monitor my numbers and they were okay. Still, in my head, I felt like I'm getting weaker because it was so awkward and it was so strange to eat in a very different way. So I really thought that I was getting weaker, but I wasn't. And my numbers were great. They just stayed stable.

• 2:08:23Rich Roll?

  And what are you replacing that dairy, those dairy products with?

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the best part of it. So um in the last weeks before I made the cut, uh I would have massive amounts of whey protein. Um and this whey protein was uh I I got it uh as a as a present uh from from my friend that uh and that's the same guy that I s- uh started training with uh back.

• 2:08:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, the kid when you were fourteen?

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, back when we were kids. So uh he had made uh um uh big amounts of whey protein that he was uh uh that he was selling and um he he stopped selling uh the product at a certain point and he just gave all everything that was left, he just gave it to me.

• 2:09:07Rich Roll?

  So you had like crates full of whey protein?

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was the problem. So I was like, okay, if I throw.

• 2:09:14Rich Roll?

  Unlimited supply, you're just drinking shake after shake after shake.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  No, it was not that much, but but it was a lot. So uh I also gave away a lot of it, but um it it wasn't uh it wasn't uh I wasn't able to uh to sell it or anything because it was already uh over the um what is it called um?

• 2:09:33Rich Roll?

  Oh, the shelf life or whatever the expiration date.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so um I just consumed it by myself uh and I thought, okay, um I'm I'm going to consume that until it's finished and that's that's the point. So in uh in in in the months before uh the cut, I was pretty much ninety percent of my protein came from this uh whey protein. And then after the cut, I would just replace the whole whey protein one by one by soy protein, which is actually not a not a very smart thing to do.

• 2:10:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:07Speaker 01

  But it was i- in a way, it was cool because um I I could compare those two sources one on one uh together and all the effects that I had, um I can now really um um. Um, count on, on, on this comparison between soy protein and whey protein.

• 2:10:29Rich Roll?

  And how did that balance out? Like what?

• 2:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:31Rich Roll?

  Were the differences?

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  And, and that's the cool part of it because you would normally think, okay, whey protein is uh as an animal protein. You have the sulfur containing amino acids, you have all these uh things that, that over acidize your body. Um, and with soy protein, you would probably think, okay, it's still not a very good source of protein. So um, and, and that, that's the good part of it because um, my experience, my experiences were so positive. That and, and having a not perfect plant source even makes it better. Because i- if I would have had the perfect plant based um.

• 2:11:10Rich Roll?

  Right, if you had had a blend of, of like sprouted pea protein and hemp protein and brown rice protein instead of soy. It would have been even that much better, but your experience was that just replacing soy for whey actually was better. In what way? Like in, you know, what aspect of it was it better?

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  So what happened was um, I had, for instance, uh, heartburn throughout my life. And uh, I always considered uh dairy and, and milk as uh the remedy for that. So when, when I uh had heartburn.

• 2:11:42Rich Roll?

  Supposed to be in the cause.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I didn't do that. And the problem was that I have been addicted uh to, to dairy products for, throughout my life, even as a child. So I haven't had any single day in my life where I didn't drink any milk. And where, where my body had a chance to find out what is it, what is it like to uh not have any input, any dairy input? Um, and I also thought, okay, i- if, if I'm going to go vegan, I'm going to die from heartburn. Because I'm using all these uh milk and, and dairy products to uh, to getting rid of that. And I don't want to uh take any pills uh for that. So let's see what happens then.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  And what happened was after one or two days, it just went away. And I was really shocked by that and I didn't know what happened until I found out about the sulfur-containing amino acids and I just realized that dairy products were actually the problem. So it was like trying to put a fire out by taking massive amounts of wood and putting it into the fire. So in the first second, I mean, if you drink a glass of milk, of dairy milk, you really feel better. And that's because, I think one part is because of the calcium. It helps neutralizing the acid in your stomach. And another thing is

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  you just throw in protein. So the acid has something to do and it helps neutralizing it. But what actually happens is you really throw wood into the fire. So it goes on. And that's what I have been done throughout my life. And at that point, I realized, great, the fire just went away.

• 2:13:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  And the remedy was actually the cause.

• 2:13:37Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, that's so, that's so interesting.

• 2:13:47Rich Roll?

  So from there, I would imagine you begin to, that must have sort of encouraged you and given you a certain level of enthusiasm to say, all right, well, let me look into this more deeply and really try to get it right. Like, how can I dial this up now that it seems the early indications are that this is going in a good direction for me?

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So what happens next is, so I have all these different concerns that I had. One was dying of heartburn.

• 2:14:15Rich Roll?

  All right. So we checked that box. Like, that's no longer a worry.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  That was, that was okay. So the next one was failing because of the addiction. What happens is three weeks after going vegan, the addiction went away.

• 2:14:27Rich Roll?

  The cravings, the cravings are gone.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:28Rich Roll?

  The microbiome changes.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And no, what I find out is, I find this radio show on the web where nutritionist just explains the biochemical basis for the addiction. And the reason I use the word addiction is, it is really an addiction.

• 2:14:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, no question about it.

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because it's, when you digest.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  Uh dairy products. You have the dairy protein, which is made of whey protein and casein. And when you digest casein, you get this thing called casomorphines. And the casomorphines are, you already hear it uh in in the sound. Um uh are something like endorphine, but but they're called exorphines because they do the same thing, but they ca- come from the outside. Uh and what in in nature, the the role of the whole thing is to make the baby cow um to the the cow uh to to feel better when when it goes and drinks from uh from from its mom's breast.

• 2:15:34Speaker 01

  Um and it makes totally sense because if it gets a little bit addicted to doing to to um performing that behavior, uh it is going to get fed well.

• 2:15:45Rich Roll?

  Right, sort of activating the pleasure center in the baby calf's brain.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:49Rich Roll?

  And in the same respect, doing that to us as humans.

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:53Rich Roll?

  I've never heard that explanation before. That's interesting.

• 2:15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too. And right after going vegan uh for for two months or so, uh I I learned that. Uh and that was the basis of the whole uh thing. And and the good thing is, it it is really an addiction. That's why I'm using the word. Um and the good thing about addictions is, once you get away from the drug for a certain period, you're done. The craving goes away uh at a certain point. And the only thing you have to uh make sure is not to.

• 2:16:25Rich Roll?

  Reactivate it.

• 2:16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, not to reactivate it, and then you're good. So after three weeks, I was cured. So this one.

• 2:16:32Rich Roll?

  Check that box now.

• 2:16:34Speaker 01

  Check that box. The third one was, am I going to be able to uh stick to to the performance level and I'm going to be able to uh to really perform well? It was, um, now we have to get back to this heartburn thing. So what actually happens is, um, I'm not only getting, uh, getting rid of the heartburn, but I'm getting rid of the overacidizing of my body. And you know what happens if you're not overacidized anymore.

• 2:17:04Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so all these dairy products are by their very nature, very acidic, right? And your body has to work very hard to maintain essentially a neutral, slightly alkaline pH in your blood system. And when you sort of bombard your system with, with either alkaline or acid, you have to buffer that. Your, your system has to buffer it. So all that dairy products, your, your system has to buffer it by leaching alkalines out of your bones, which means taking calcium out of your bones ironically, uh, which is why, you know, sort of excessive dairy ingestion can lead to osteoporosis against what most people believe. Uh, but in turn, this leads to this state of like chronic acidosis, which causes inflammation,

• 2:17:46Rich Roll?

  which leads to all these, you know, chronic illnesses that so many people suffer from.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And one thing you, you mentioned is inflammation and that's something that's quite crucial when, when you're doing a sport like, uh, the, the sport I do, uh, because it, doing all these movements, uh, with, with heavy weights puts a lot of stress on your bones and joints and it causes inflammatory, uh, processes. Um, and so what, what you have is then a situation where you're in constant pain, um, being, being, uh, uh, being in, in competitions and in training. Um, and I realized that, uh, this level of pain went much, much

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  better, uh, after several weeks of, uh, being on a vegan diet. Um, so that made me, uh, think about, and, and then I, um, tried to find out what, what was the biological basis for that. And I found out, okay, if you're overacidizing your body, inflammation gets, uh, gets worse. So, um, it's, it's just when you get, uh, rid of the acid, it also helps with that.

• 2:18:54Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  Uh, brought brought me to an idea because now we're six months after my mom uh went nuts. After I told her what I want to do, um, and my mom is suffering from um. Rheumatoid arthritis. And that's all about inflammation.

• 2:19:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  And I thought this might be a good thing for her um to to help her with the inflammation. Um, and she's she's in a state where she has to constantly take painkillers and um.

• 2:19:29Rich Roll?

  It's debilitating.

• 2:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:31Rich Roll?

  Really bad, yeah.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also uh she has to take something against arthritis itself. Um, and then I come with this idea and and I tell her and I'm just like. Okay, you might think that's crazy, but what if you just try it for several weeks and see what happens? And she's like, okay, why not? If if it if it's able to help, why not? And then she all uh she also. Has uh seen me doing it for several months now, so so she knows, okay. He didn't die yet.

• 2:20:04Rich Roll?

  Freaking out as much, yeah.

• 2:20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he didn't die yet and he looks good, so he seems to he seems to be uh do pretty uh pretty good. So uh she said, okay, she's she's going to try it. Um, and that's it. She tries it for several weeks. She gets rid of all the painkillers. Her um um her situation gets much, much better. Uh, she reduces all uh the things that that she had to take against arthritis to a minimal level. Um, and and she she is enlightened by the whole thing.

• 2:20:36Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 2:20:36Speaker 01

  And and she's vegan since that.

• 2:20:38Rich Roll?

  That's crazy. Yeah, from the freak out to being like an evangelist. That's that's extraordinary.

• 2:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so um so it worked uh quite well with her and also um Katie um. Got on the train just by realizing what I was doing and also, I mean, I think one crucial part was that I didn't try to push anything on both of them. I really didn't push them to anything. I just gave them time to find it out for themselves. I was just teasing from time to time with some jokes or anything, but nothing more. And I think with Katie, it helped a lot that she was always with me when I would give all these interviews and for TV shows and stuff like that.

• 2:21:25Rich Roll?

  She just wore her down, like she kept hearing the same thing over and over again. Until it starts to plant the seed.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. And it really helped that I used all these, all these arguments, but not directed towards, not to her direction, but in another direction. And she was like, just a beholder and she just listened to it and something happened in her ad.

• 2:21:53Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Cool. So we still, we still have this one box yet that I'm not sure that we've checked, which is your ability to perform athletically. Like everything sort of seems like it's coming together in the gym and suddenly you're experiencing much less inflammation, which, you know, what that translates into is improved recovery time. Like if you don't have as much inflammation, you're able to train harder and bounce back more quickly, which is going to allow you to really kind of hit it harder and faster and more frequently. And I would imagine, you know, at least my experience was that that translates into, you know, pretty significant performance gains in a shorter period of time.

• 2:22:30Speaker 01

  That's it. That's exactly what happens. So one part of it is that I get rid of inflammation. So I'm able to train harder. I'm able to recover faster and train more. That's the one thing. And then the other thing is the body has all these regulatory processes where if you give too much of anything, it blocks it or it doesn't take it in anymore.

• 2:23:01Rich Roll?

  Right. Like if you start taking exogenous testosterone, you know, your body's going to shut down its own endogenous production of testosterone.

• 2:23:10Speaker 01

  And you're going to get rid of your testicles.

• 2:23:14Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 2:23:15Speaker 01

  That's what happens.

• 2:23:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:17Speaker 01

  So, um, so the body has a way of balancing everything out if it gets too much of anything. And what happens if you give the body protein that over acidizes the body is the body just stops taking in protein. And that's something you're

• 2:23:34Rich Roll?

  It's not absorbing that protein.

• 2:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's something that a lot of bodybuilders do without knowing it. And that's something that I realized after going vegan. So what happened was I just realized I didn't even have to have the same amount of protein to get the same results. And, um, so it's really funny because a lot of people think if you go vegan, you have to eat more. What actually happened was I'm eating less now and I'm even, uh, taking less protein. And, um, I'm 10 kilos heavier than I was before, so I'm 130 kilos now.

• 2:24:13Rich Roll?

  And your explanation would be that your body is able to absorb these nutrients and perhaps maybe the nutritional density of the foods that you're eating is, is, is greater? Or?

• 2:24:24Speaker 01

  No, the nutritional density is quite the same. But what, what really happens is that my, um, my metabolism is much more efficient than it was before.

• 2:24:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  And that's because it's not over acidized. If you're over acidized, your metabolism is completely inefficient. So you have to just, just have much more input for the same result.

• 2:24:49Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:24:50Speaker 01

  Uh, that, that I have now.

• 2:24:52Rich Roll?

  Right. That's, that's super interesting.

• 2:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:54Rich Roll?

  Wow. All right. So, so do you have, so when's the next competition where you kind of put this to the test?

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the next competition is, uh, the European Championships in, in powerlifting where I, uh, compete, uh,

• 2:25:07Rich Roll?

  Now suddenly you're in an all new sport.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, but. But.

• 2:25:13Rich Roll?

  With powerlifting.

• 2:25:14Speaker 01

  Not really. What I have left out when we were talking about the first years was that I I done a lot of powerlifting competitions too. So that's something that I had done in the years before. And that's actually the thing that I'm really built for. So I'm doing strongman because it's much more fun. And powerlifting is only these three movements.

• 2:25:37Rich Roll?

  And. Right. You're like killing it in the in the sort of powerlifting aspects of the strongman, but it's the powerlifting where you really can shine.

• 2:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'm short and especially for the bench press and for the for the squat, it really helps when you have short limbs. So that's something that I'm actually built for.

• 2:25:58Rich Roll?

  What about when the the knife blades come out of your knuckles? What do you use that for?

• 2:26:03Speaker 01

  That's that's really a problem when that lifting.

• 2:26:07Speaker 01

  Because sometimes there's some holes in the ground.

• 2:26:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:13Rich Roll?

  Touch yourself too. Anyway, go ahead.

• 2:26:16Speaker 01

  No, so that's actually the first competition that I do as a vegan. It's, I think, let me think, I think it's four or five months after going vegan. And it's in Finland and I win my category and I win the overall championship.

• 2:26:38Rich Roll?

  Even with all those big, strong Finnish guys?

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:43Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so that's the first, the first competition where I have can put it to the test.

• 2:26:51Rich Roll?

  And in terms of like your number, I mean, were you, you know, in terms of like the actual amount of weight, like, were you hitting your PRs or where were you, you know?

• 2:27:02Speaker 01

  No, in that regard, the powerlifting thing is not very useful because before going to the powerlifting competition, I didn't train for that. So I started training for that like six or eight weeks before going to the competition. So it's, there's no way to to compare anything.

• 2:27:26Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  But where we can compare is if you like, take a look at, I mean, I think the log or the yoke is probably the best. Uh way to look for for having a um a comparison.

• 2:27:44Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:27:45Speaker 01

  Because I have done uh um heavy yoke walks throughout the the whole time um like even one and a half years before uh bef- before I went vegan. So um I already started to to do heavy yoke walks.

• 2:28:02Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:28:02Speaker 01

  Uh and I was able to handle or or thi- this ten meter thing, I was able to do with four hundred and sixty kilos.

• 2:28:11Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:28:12Speaker 01

  And then after going vegan and uh being vegan for for two years, um I I did the world record with uh five hundred fifty.

• 2:28:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's the one where I was there.

• 2:28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:21Rich Roll?

  Five hundred fifty. And you just recently set another world record, yeah?

• 2:28:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was i- it is the same thing, but five kilos more.

• 2:28:29Rich Roll?

  Ah, okay.

• 2:28:30Speaker 01

  Um and I was also faster.

• 2:28:31Rich Roll?

  You did that here in Germany?

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  Uh yeah, at uh at the last competition.

• 2:28:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, and so how fast did you do that one?

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  Uh it was twenty eight seconds and I think.

• 2:28:41Rich Roll?

  Seconds faster or twenty eight seconds total?

• 2:28:43Speaker 01

  Twenty eight seconds total.

• 2:28:44Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, and did you have to, did you set it down like you did?

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I had to set it, I set it down once, but uh yeah, but but this time uh it it was almost uh almost um the the ten meters were almost done and I had to set it uh set it up once, but just because I tried to be a little bit faster. And then it didn't.

• 2:29:05Rich Roll?

  And in the interim in between, when I saw you in Toronto and this most recent world record, um has anybody tried to challenge it like as have other people attempted to to to do the yoke with more weight and failed? Or are you out there like, you know, in the fringe, like doing this on your own?

• 2:29:22Speaker 01

  They um they have tried uh or or they have challenged it, but the problem is that they went for a completely different distance. So they um this uh there's been one competition where uh they the Arnold Classic, actually, where they went for three meters. Um and obviously, if you go for three meters compared to ten meters, there's something completely different.

• 2:29:46Rich Roll?

  So how much did that, how much did that dude?

• 2:29:48Speaker 01

  They.

• 2:29:49Rich Roll?

  Yoke for three meters?

• 2:29:51Speaker 01

  They went for six hundred and what was it, six hundred and?

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  Six hundred and eighty kilos or so. That was the heaviest they went. They did that for two consecutive years. And I really thought it was a pity that they went for only three meters because it would really have been cool to have a direct comparison.

• 2:30:17Rich Roll?

  Right, because three meters is we're talking about like three or four steps versus what like fifteen, twelve? I mean, how many steps do you take when you're doing the ten meters?

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  I mean, my distance was thirty feet compared to ten feet.

• 2:30:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  So it's really something different. And also, I mean, one of the problems is that you.

• 2:30:40Rich Roll?

  You're the endurance athlete of yoke lifting.

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  Of the yoke walk, yeah. I'm the yoke walk Iron Man.

• 2:30:50Speaker 01

  Ultra yoke walk.

• 2:30:52Rich Roll?

  That's right, right?

• 2:30:54Speaker 01

  Not really, because ten meters is also quite a short distance. But three meters is ridiculous.

• 2:31:01Rich Roll?

  It's like an eternity when you have that much weight on you, right? So it is the ultra endurance distance of yoke walking.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:09Rich Roll?

  Awesome. All right. So, you know, the idea behind this is it almost seems like, and tell me if this is fair, like this is a way to sort of advance your kind of advocacy. You're in this position, right, where you have a microphone all of a sudden and you have all these people paying attention and listening to you. And you could continue to do, you know, sort of powerlifting of, you know, competitions and strongman, etc. But by saying, I'm going to try for this world record and just sort of self style this adventure and create attention around that is a way to kind of put a microscope on not only your athletic prowess, but also, you know, the issues that you care about.

• 2:31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So.

• 2:31:53Speaker 01

  The the main reason that I that I went vegan was um that I was trying to be a good um good example and uh being someone who influences a lot of people, I thought I really have to uh try to be the best example that I can be. Uh and that was the main motivation to to really do it. Um and that's really what I do in in the last four years, that I really try to find ways um of um of really getting the message out to people. Um why why am I doing the whole thing? Uh and and also get people's attention and uh to get people's uh uh attention, I really from time to time have to do something crazy um to get the media, to get

• 2:32:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you know, it's a it's a funny thing because you have to do something really, really kind of outrageous in order to get that kind of attention. And then people say, yeah, but that's unhealthy and outrageous.

• 2:32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:32:52Rich Roll?

  So it's a weird it's a weird thing like that. But um uh you know, the it I want to ask you about, let's see, how long have we been going here? Um I don't want to take a whoa, we've been going for a while. Uh we've been going almost two and a half hours, dude. Uh all right, we gotta go eat soon, but I can't let there's a couple of things that I I really want to talk to you about before I can let you go. And the first thing is, is you know, sort of given where you are now and that the kind of, you know, responsibility that you yoke, just like you yoke the weights, you know, how do you uh how do you kind of um uh think about how you advocate? You know what I mean? Because I think that especially with veganism and issues around food, it can become very emotional. There's a lot

• 2:33:36Rich Roll?

  of passion, you know, and there's different ways of carrying the message and and and you see like there's a lot of sort of finger pointing and judgment and anger, uh you know, that comes with people that are passionate and see the world in a in a particular way. Um and you strike me as somebody who, you know, is carrying a message of compassion with a great deal of compassion and and non judgment.

• 2:33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's really what I I try to do. Well, what I try to do is um um. When I talk to people, I always take my own perspective before I went vegan. And I try to talk from that perspective. And I try to just make them understand certain things by letting them, by letting them

• 2:34:27Speaker 01

  experience my own thought processes. So, so I will tell them what, what, what my concerns were, like, like within the last two hours, I just told you what my concerns were, and then I tell them what my experiences were when I, when I really did it. And the good part of that is that I don't have to judge people in, in, in any way, because what I'm actually doing is I'm just telling them my story and what happened. And then they have all this information without having the feeling that I tried to push something on them. And I think that's a really crucial part of the whole thing, because as soon as people feel pushed in, in, in a certain direction, in most cases, you will have this natural

• 2:35:13Speaker 01

  You're gonna push back. Yeah, it's, it's like a reflex. They will find or, or try to find ways to, to judge you, to, to, to, to. Because as soon as your self-image is, is threatened, you find ways to, to get rid of that threat. And one way is to just not listen. And that's what I don't want. So I really want them to, to, to listen to me, so I can get the information into their brains. And to make them listen, I, I really try to be as unjudgmental as, as I can be, because I know that that's, that's poison.

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  If you, if you have the feeling that, that some, somebody is judging you, that's just poisoning the whole communication.

• 2:36:01Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, it kind of brings up something we were talking about on the train earlier. When you talk about like sense of identity and trying to preserve that sense of identity or whatever your worldview might be, right?

• 2:36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:12Rich Roll?

  And we were talking about how, you know, when you're doing something that's sort of unusual, like that doesn't really compute, like, oh, how can you, how can you carry so much weight and not eat animal products like that? That's bizarre, doesn't make sense to me. Oh, well, it must be, you know, either like Patrick's lying, you know, there's one, no, he's, he's full of it, and when he's, when no one's looking, he's eating meat, is either that, or you're a freak of nature and you're an outlier. So, you know, that doesn't apply to me, which allows you to preserve your worldview, because you're kind of threatening, you know, a sort of a cultural paradigm. And it's interesting how the human being reacts to that to try to, you know, sort of make sure that, that, you know, the, the way that they see the world is not threatened

• 2:36:57Rich Roll?

  by, as a result of, of, of your actions, right?

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  And that's a very natural thing. We always have to remember that that's an absolutely natural thing, because the one thing that gives you, that gives you some, some sense of, of certainty and some, some saves, some sense of being safe in this world is the feeling that you know how the world works. And as soon as someone tells you something that is totally contradicting, something that you really believe in deeply, that shakes your whole world.

• 2:37:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's frightening.

• 2:37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's absolutely normal and, and very natural that people try to find ways to save that, that building that they have built in, inside their mind from, from the earthquake that, that comes. Because going back to what we said before, these things that we are doing without knowing why we are doing them, they are fundamental things, things like relationship. If you tell someone that they're in love with this one person, that they think that everything comes totally naturally, and this two people relationship is completely natural and it comes from themselves, and you tell them, no, that's just culture.

• 2:38:15Speaker 01

  If you, if, if culture tells you something else, you'll be married to five people or so, that shakes their whole world. And it's, of course, everyone is going to say, no, that it's, it's, it's me and it's, uh, it's, it's like, like I believe in. Um, and, and, and that's the problem. That's the reason why you really have to be, um, um, very careful in, in the way you communicate.

• 2:38:40Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 2:38:40Speaker 01

  Because, uh, um, because it's, you always have to remember the impact of, of, of the message that you are carrying. It's, it's a huge impact and, um, um, so, um, it's, it's like carrying a big explosive weapon with you.

• 2:38:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:38:58Speaker 01

  And, and not knowing what, what you're actually doing.

• 2:39:00Rich Roll?

  And just detonating it all over the place irresponsibly.

• 2:39:03Speaker 01

  And that, that's what happens when you, when you look at, uh, discussions, uh, in, in the internet. When, when people get mad at each other, meat eaters and then vegans. Almost in a, in a, in a virtual way, they almost kill each other.

• 2:39:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:39:18Speaker 01

  That's what happens. The, the vegans really forget how explosive this, this message is that, that, that they are carrying. And that's something that we really have to remember every day.

• 2:39:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and, and I think it brings up, uh, issues of masculinity as well, you know? And as, you know, we're both athletes, we're very different athletes. It's one thing for me, you know, some skinny long distance runner guy to talk about like this lifestyle. Uh, it's another thing altogether for a guy of sort of, you know, your strength and stature to, to be advocating it. And, and I think it's impossible to have this conversation without talking about, um, you know, what that means in terms of, of identity, you know? And so much of our cultural paradigm or our worldview as men, you know, is, is premised on this idea of the hunter gatherer or the sort of, you know, alpha who, who brings home the bacon, literally.

• 2:40:14Rich Roll?

  Uh, and to say that, no, you know, to decouple your identity from that, you know, sort of, uh, activity is also a very, is very threatening to, to the worldview. Um, and so how do you sort of speak to that? Because you're, you're really kind of like, you know, you're, you're the torchbearer, I think, when it comes to that.

• 2:40:34Speaker 01

  Um, one thing that I do is I try to uh make uh people um understand where where this whole idea of uh this connections, uh this connection of um manliness and uh meat eating, where it really comes from. And uh you you had it uh with the perfect uh words. It it comes really from from this archaic uh um uh his historic times where um like uh men would uh would compare against each other uh to to find out who is the best hunter. So if you're the best hunter, you're going to bring the most meat home. So there's already

• 2:41:17Speaker 01

  this connection between meat and being being a real man. And that's something that uh went uh it it's not, it it didn't translate into all cultures uh one one to one, but it's subliminally, it's it's uh within uh within pretty much all uh cultures, except uh some some cultures in in India where where you have vegetarians. Um it's it's pretty much there uh everywhere. Um and um just by trying to um um making people aware where it comes from, I think that helps already a lot to uh breaking this uh this

• 2:41:59Speaker 01

  uh association uh that that people have in their minds. So that's uh something that I try to do. And then another thing is, of course, um something that is not uh, I mean, it's it's not possible to put it put it into word, uh but I just try to um help with that issue by doing what I do. So I mean, if you have this guy um who is

• 2:42:26Speaker 01

  Overweight, who has a long beard, who is pretty much every uh has every aspect of what you would consider uh to to to be manly and is able to uh like um just walk uh through a closed door if he wants and he's carrying like a horse on his shoulders and so on. So you have this strange guy um and he's able to do all this and he is able to be himself without having to eat meat or without having to uh consume any animal products. Um there's actually no no questions left.

• 2:43:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's it's your actions and what you do as an athlete are gonna speak more loudly than anything that comes out of your mouth. And and I think, you know, that must inform your decision to return to competition. Because I think when I'd seen you last, you were like, yeah, I'm not gonna compete anymore. Like, I just, I don't feel like I wanna compete against other other other people. But you're like, yeah, I'm kind of getting back into it. I mean, is that what's part of that?

• 2:43:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So so there there's two reasons. The one reason is uh after retiring for two years, um I just um so one one thing that that I've seen is no one is doing my job. So I was I was uh expecting of someone uh getting into uh into the game and and just doing what I do now. And that didn't happen for two years.

• 2:43:51Rich Roll?

  A human Wolverine Junior to step in your place?

• 2:43:56Speaker 01

  So so that's that's the one thing. And then another thing is that um I just um I just have the feeling that um I mean, one one of the reasons to um to go away from competitions was that um I thought I'm going to find more effective ways to communicate the whole thing without. Having to go on with sports because after all, I'm I'm getting I'm getting older and at a certain point, I'm not going to be able to improve. And that's the point where where I don't know if uh I'm going to be any help for for the movement also. Because if I don't improve, people are going to say, ah, look, now I have to go vegan, uh, it's it's it's done.

• 2:44:39Rich Roll?

  Right, which is the other thing we were talking about earlier, which is, you you know, this this this other argument that could be thrown at you like, oh, well, you got strong before you went vegan, so it doesn't really count.

• 2:44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and that's something that that is not uh not accurate because um I'm actually on on on on certain uh uh um events, I can show that I'm stronger. And I'm also heavier and and much much more muscular than I was before, but uh I went vegan. So it's not that I maintain what I had before, but I build upon that and and I'm even better now.

• 2:45:12Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:45:13Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, the perfect way to see that is really just uh by looking at the yoke. And you see that four years after after going vegan, I'm still able to to beat my uh my own record. And and it even doesn't uh matter so much if it wouldn't be a world record anymore. Because the the really important thing is I'm beating myself from from time uh

• 2:45:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:45:36Speaker 01

  from time to time. So I can really show that I'm getting stronger. And uh I think that's the the really important part of it. Uh, the world record thing is just important to get the media attention and to get people to talk about it. Um, so, so, um,

• 2:45:55Speaker 01

  so, so one thing was that that I thought, okay, I I think um being able to travel the world and and having all these talks and and uh getting the information uh to people through media and everything, and also writing books. So that's what what I uh actually did after after the world record in in two thousand and thirteen. I I wrote a book, wrote my first book. So I thought, okay, this is going to be a more effective way of getting the information out to people. Um, and in in my Into intellectual worldview that that was how the world works. But unfortunately, that's not really how the world works.

• 2:46:37Speaker 01

  So people really want to have these crazy things. And that's something that that that I found out. And then I thought, OK, I'm now thirty six and I probably have two, three or four more good years in me.

• 2:46:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:46:51Speaker 01

  So um.

• 2:46:54Speaker 01

  I really should, I I really should use these uh uh years that I have in me and try to do as much as I can to to really get this thing going. And that that's why I'm back.

• 2:47:06Rich Roll?

  That's what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. So so what's the next big challenge?

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  Uh, next thing would be for for next year to. Uh, I mean, one thing is I'm I'm going to go go on with the yoke. And I'm also going to go for the shorter distance. Because one thing that that I had when I set the world record first was I. It was also called the heaviest weight a human being has ever carried.

• 2:47:33Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:47:33Speaker 01

  And I want to have that back.

• 2:47:34Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:47:35Speaker 01

  So I'm going to go for the shorter distance.

• 2:47:36Rich Roll?

  You gotta go the three meter and put on six eighty five or something, right?

• 2:47:41Speaker 01

  Seven.

• 2:47:41Rich Roll?

  Seven hundred.

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  Let's see what what what's going to work.

• 2:47:44Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:47:44Speaker 01

  I already went to six hundred and forty in training. So we'll see.

• 2:47:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:47:51Speaker 01

  So that that's one thing. Then another thing is I'm going to get back to nationals. Um, and one thing that I would really like to do is.

• 2:48:00Rich Roll?

  Powerlifting or strong man?

• 2:48:01Speaker 01

  Strong man.

• 2:48:01Rich Roll?

  Strong man.

• 2:48:02Speaker 01

  So one thing that I really want to do is I want to regain the title. Because I never had it as a vegan. So it would be a really big argument if I could show that I'm able to to regain the title as a vegan. And of course, next year will be my fifth years, my fifth years as a vegan.

• 2:48:20Rich Roll?

  What month is that?

• 2:48:22Speaker 01

  That's throughout the year. It's a series of competitions.

• 2:48:26Rich Roll?

  Oh, I see. I see. So isn't like one weekend where you show up and do it all? It's like points accumulated over the course of a period of time. I got you. Cool. All right. Well, we got to lock it down here, but, but the last thing I want to know about before we do that is walk me through a day in the life of Patrick in food and training. Cause there's no way you can, we can close this podcast down without me at least asking you what you eat and how you train. We left it to the very end, but still, you know, tell me a little bit about that.

• 2:48:56Speaker 01

  So a lot of the calories that I take in are in liquid form. And it starts in the morning when I get up and that's something that I have done before going vegan. So I have.

• 2:49:07Rich Roll?

  Why is that?

• 2:49:09Speaker 01

  The, the thing is when I get up, I'm, I don't have any appetite. But I still want to, want to take in calories because that's, one thing is after sleeping for eight hours, I really want to give my body some nutrients as fast as possible. And another thing is I need energy for the day. So I need to get some, some calories in. But usually in the, in the morning, in the first two hours, I don't have any appetite. So what I will do is I will have a big shake or a big smoothie. A shake would probably be a baboomian shake.

• 2:49:50Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 2:49:51Speaker 01

  Which is.

• 2:49:52Rich Roll?

  I saw the recipe in your book.

• 2:49:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you saw it. So, so it's a lot of oatmeal. And then it's chocolate soy milk. And it's, it's also some chocolate flavored vegan protein powder.

• 2:50:08Rich Roll?

  This is like the weight gainer morning shake.

• 2:50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's it.

• 2:50:13Rich Roll?

  So not even one leaf of kale in there?

• 2:50:16Speaker 01

  Uh, not necessarily.

• 2:50:20Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:50:21Speaker 01

  So tha- that's the first thing tha- that I would have in the morning, uh, that's, that's pretty much my breakfast. Um, then two hours later, um, I would just have normal lunch, like, like anyone else. And that could be probably, uh, a rice dish with tofu, like, uh, tofu, sweet sour, with sweet sour sauce and rice and then some, some, uh, veggies.

• 2:50:44Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:50:44Speaker 01

  That, that's it, some Thai veggies or anything. Um, then after that, uh, an hour later or so, I would, uh, have, uh, for instance, uh, a big smoothie. And then two hours later, uh, I'm already, uh, within the range of, of my workout, so I will have my pre-workout shake, which is just a shake, uh, on water basis with some, uh, vegan protein powder.

• 2:51:12Rich Roll?

  So the first training session of your day isn't until the afternoon? You don't tr- you don't do any training in the morning?

• 2:51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's it. Um, uh, usually I'm even training, uh, um, even later, but, uh, it de- depends on what, what the rest of the day will look like. But we are not now pretending that it's going to be in the afternoon. So I will have my, uh, pre-workout shake. Then there's training, and after training, I will have a big smoothie. So you, you already see, there's onl- only one, uh, real, um, um, meal until that point, and everything else is, is liquid.

• 2:51:50Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  Uh, then after the big smoothie, uh, there's going to be another, um, um, meal, it's, it's going to be pro- uh, uh, probably the same thing that I had for lunch, um, for, for a second time. Uh, then, um, after that, uh, I will have probably some snay- uh, some snacks.

• 2:52:10Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:52:10Speaker 01

  I wanted to say some snakes.

• 2:52:12Rich Roll?

  Some snakes, yeah. What kind of s- what are, what are the snacks?

• 2:52:15Speaker 01

  Um, uh, sometimes peanuts. A lot of times, it's, it's just peanuts or some tortilla chips or, or anything. So, um, but, but often, it's, it's just peanuts or, um,

• 2:52:26Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:52:26Speaker 01

  just, just some, um, or ju- ju- just, uh, some whale. Or or or well nuts or anything.

• 2:52:35Speaker 01

  And then uh in in the evening uh before right before I get I get to bed, I will have uh another protein shake. The reason uh for for the last uh protein shake is just to get some protein in before I get to sleep. So I will so I have something for for for these uh eight hours of sleep uh that that's uh um. That stays in my body and um uh still not uh not wanting to um. Having my stomach full uh before I before I go to bed.

• 2:53:09Rich Roll?

  So how many grams of protein a day are you taking in, you think?

• 2:53:13Speaker 01

  I try to get three hundred grams, but in most cases uh it's it's three uh two hundred fifty or something. So it's between two hundred fifty and three hundred grams.

• 2:53:23Rich Roll?

  And and what does the training look like? Like, what's a typical day in training?

• 2:53:27Speaker 01

  Uh, training can be very, very different, uh depending on what I'm preparing for.

• 2:53:34Rich Roll?

  The latest book is really about functional strength training, right? Like, which is being out in nature and actually sort of, you know.

• 2:53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but but it's not so much um so what I uh what I try to cover in the book is not so much my own training. Uh but um I try to put put together a a program. That makes sense and covers uh all the knowledge and uh that I acquired uh in the in the last uh two decades. But it's for someone normal. So it's it's nothing like what what what I do every day, uh because I wouldn't consider it uh an any uh. Good idea for for someone who is working in an office or someone who just uh wants to get a little bit stronger or anything to do what I do. So because my training is very spe- very specialized and is always uh very focused on.

• 2:54:26Speaker 01

  On the next uh competition and the next challenge that that is in front of me.

• 2:54:31Rich Roll?

  So if you're if you're looking at like, you know, the next yoke challenge, you're gonna you're gonna you're looking at, you know, crossing ten meters with, you know. Five hundred and sixty plus kilograms on your back. So so you know, just maybe just give me, you know, what what one workout would look like.

• 2:54:47Speaker 01

  So training will really replicate what I want to do in in the competition. So what I do at home is I I pretty much simulate the the whole thing.

• 2:55:00Speaker 01

  And I I train with the same implements and I have this like like a pyromide, pyromide uh uh style.

• 2:55:12Speaker 01

  Series of sets. Where I start with a with quite a. Lightweight and then I work my way up.

• 2:55:21Rich Roll?

  Right, and like reduce the number of reps as you increase the weight and build up and build back down or?

• 2:55:27Speaker 01

  As as I'm not doing sets with with the yoke, I mean, on on the first runs, I I will probably do a longer distance.

• 2:55:36Rich Roll?

  I see, right.

• 2:55:37Speaker 01

  But but as I you're not doing any reps.

• 2:55:40Rich Roll?

  Right, I got you, I got you.

• 2:55:41Speaker 01

  It it it just stays how it is and it gets just just gets heavier. And so you give the body the the chance to accumulate to to the progressive.

• 2:55:53Rich Roll?

  And do you have like a periodized training schedule where you you sort of ramp up the intensity and then have rest days or rest weeks and then build back up again? Like, what is the and you know, and and and sort of piggybacking on that, do you work with a coach? Or do you have mentors that give you feedback on your training and where you're at?

• 2:56:13Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm a trained coach myself, so I I know all the principles of periodization and and everything. And I don't use it because it's.

• 2:56:26Speaker 01

  When when you're doing a strongman, the variety of of things that you that you have.

• 2:56:34Speaker 01

  To do to to to prepare for something is is such a big variety that you don't actually need periodization. Because you actually.

• 2:56:44Rich Roll?

  Cause you're mixing it up so much.

• 2:56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, because because you normally would do that to not to avoid plateaus.

• 2:56:52Speaker 01

  Um. And there are no plateaus for me because as soon as I uh um get get to a plateau with one thing, I just start training another thing. And so I don't really need that.

• 2:57:03Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:57:03Speaker 01

  Um. It would it would probably still make sense because um because you're also avoiding uh to just um overwhelm your body. But the problem with that is I have this strange mindset. I um I'm not able to perform on eighty percent when I go into training. So I'm I'm just not able to do it.

• 2:57:25Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:57:25Speaker 01

  I I sometimes I'm tired and I think, okay, today I'm going to have a light day and I'm just going to go for seventy percent or so. But as soon as I'm in training, I just can't stop. I I don't know. Do you have the same thing?

• 2:57:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It's not always so good.

• 2:57:42Speaker 01

  No, no, of course not.

• 2:57:43Rich Roll?

  Get into trouble. That's how you get injured and that's how you overtrain.

• 2:57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Um. I I still uh uh really try to be smart and uh when I and I have a quite uh good feeling uh to to where I know uh at uh at which degree I can push my body and where where the right point is to to to stop. So um I'm quite quite lucky with injuries. Um uh not being injured a lot in in all those years that I trained. But um but but as I said, I'm I'm just not not really uh able to to stop myself uh um uh when it comes to.

• 2:58:19Rich Roll?

  Do you take a do you take do you train seven days a week? Do you have a rest day or?

• 2:58:23Speaker 01

  I I I have a lot of rest days because the the problem with uh with what I do is it puts such a lot of stress to to the bones and and all those structures that need a lot of time to recover the tendons and so on. Uh. And the problem with that is your performance is going to go up quite fast. But if you make use uh of of that and you uh stick to training, you get overtrained very, very fast. And uh the problem is that's exactly where uh the injuries come. Because your muscle is getting stronger before your tendons can accumulate to that. Um. And so so I have to take a lot of days off. Uh. So uh usually I will train one day

• 2:59:06Speaker 01

  and then I will have two days off at least.

• 2:59:09Rich Roll?

  Um hum.

• 2:59:09Speaker 01

  Um. So in a week, uh I will have at about three uh uh training days normally.

• 2:59:16Rich Roll?

  I'm in the wrong sport.

• 2:59:21Speaker 01

  But but most of the time when I'm taking days off, I'm in pain. So I don't know how it is for you.

• 2:59:28Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, clearly, we could wrap it out all day long, but we got to close it down, man. We gotta go eat. Everyone's waiting for us. So that was amazing. Thank you so much. I think we did it, right?

• 2:59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 2:59:41Rich Roll?

  You feel good?

• 2:59:41Speaker 01

  It was, it was.

• 2:59:42Rich Roll?

  We made it through without you having to take a break to have a protein smoothie either.

• 2:59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I probably lost two pounds or so.

• 2:59:50Rich Roll?

  All right, man. We'll go out there and break another world record so you can come back and tell me all about it, will you?

• 2:59:56Speaker 01

  Will do.

• 2:59:57Rich Roll?

  All right, man. You're an inspiration. Thanks so much. I appreciate it, man. I love you, brother, and I can't wait to see what you do next.

• 3:00:03Speaker 01

  Thanks, Rich.

• 3:00:03Rich Roll?

  So you just have the brand new book out. I don't know what it's called in German, so tell everybody what the exact title is.

• 3:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's in, in, I translated.

• 3:00:16Speaker 01

  I translated it into, into English. It's functional strength training for heroes.

• 3:00:21Rich Roll?

  Is it in English language or only German language?

• 3:00:24Speaker 01

  At the moment, it's in German, but today we were at the book fair and we talked to a, to an English publisher. So probably in the next few months, we'll get it out in the States, too.

• 3:00:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's cool. All right. But if you speak German and you're listening, you should definitely check it out. You can get it at amazon.de, right?

• 3:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00:43Rich Roll?

  That's right there. It's probably on amazon.com, I'm sure. So that's exciting, man. Congrats on the new book. Are you working on another book?

• 3:00:52Speaker 01

  I'm just, I just published this one. I have, I already have the idea for three other books in my head. But I'm.

• 3:01:01Rich Roll?

  Well, when you're only training three days a week, you got no excuses to, you can crank books out.

• 3:01:08Speaker 01

  I'm actually going to start writing on the next one, but it's going to be something completely different.

• 3:01:13Rich Roll?

  All right, good. Well, I look forward to it, man. And what's the best place for people to go online who want to learn more about you and connect with you?

• 3:01:21Speaker 01

  You can find me on Facebook and on YouTube. On Facebook, just Patrick Baboumian. And then on YouTube, I'm the world's strongest vegan.

• 3:01:33Rich Roll?

  Write me so, man.

• 3:01:34Speaker 01

  And my homepage is veganbadass.com.

• 3:01:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, vegan. And you can get, can, can people buy those cool T-shirts that you make?

• 3:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, at veganbadass.com.

• 3:01:42Rich Roll?

  All right, awesome, man. Thanks so much. Let's go eat.

• 3:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's go. Thank you.

• 3:01:46Rich Roll?

  Peace. Plants.

• 3:01:52Rich Roll?

  How cool was that, right? Pretty cool, I think. Patrick is an amazing guy. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Please do not forget to check out this week's comprehensive show notes at richroll.com. Tons of stuff there to take your learning experience beyond the earbuds. And while you're at it, make a point to subscribe to my newsletter. If you want access to the entire RRP catalog, beyond the most recent 50 episodes, I've got a free app for that. Just search Rich Roll in the App Store. It pops right up. Download it. All the episodes, all 201 in the palm of your hand. For all your Plant Power and RRP schwag and merch, visit richroll.com. Tons of cool stuff for holiday gifts. We've got signed copies of The Plant Power Way and also Finding Ultra. We've got all kinds of cool t-shirts. We've got tech tees.

• 3:02:37Rich Roll?

  We've got sticker packs. We have fine art prints. We've got nutritional products. We're running a sale on those. Check it all out at richroll.com. All kinds of awesome to take your health and your life to the next level. Keep sending in your questions for future Q and A podcasts to [email protected]. Check out my online courses at mindbodygreen.com, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition and The Art of Living with Purpose. Both really proud of those courses. Lots of great information, multiple hours of streaming video content and the like there. All good stuff. Mindbodygreen.com. Click on video courses to learn more. Thanks to you guys so much for supporting the show, for telling a friend, for sharing it on social media. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys. I'm looking forward to the holiday season. Got tons of great interviews and guests to share with you coming up, including

• 3:03:22Rich Roll?

  a Best of 2015 episode that is going to rock your mind. So until then, have a great week. Be mindful, be kind, be generous, be compassionate, especially to yourself and to others. Peace. Plants. Make it great.