184. The Secret Spy Network: Kim Philby Threatens the Alliance (Ep 2)

An intelligence alliance established to spy on the Soviets during the Cold War. But will it be able to hold together under crisis? David and Gordon are once again joined by journalist, author and filmmaker Richard Kerbaj, to explore the history of the Five Eyes intelligence sharing alliance. ------------------- ⁠The Secret History of the Five Eyes by Richard Kerbaj⁠ ⁠The Defector by Richard Kerbaj⁠ ------------------- THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026 at The Rest Is Fest: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 4 September: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/the-rest-is-classified-live/⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Sign-up for our free newsletter where producer Becki takes you behind the scenes of the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mailchi.mp/goalhanger.com/tric-free-newsletter-sign⁠-up⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Join the Declassified Club to go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community. Just go to ⁠⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or join on Apple Podcasts. ------------------- Get a 10% discount on business PCs, printers and accessories using the code TRIC10. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://HP.com/CLASSIFIED⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information. T&C's apply. ------------------- EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restisclassified Upgrade your online protection with an all-in-one security app! It’s risk free with NordVPN’s 30-day money-back guarantee 🌍 ------------------- Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified⁠ Video Editor: Joe Pettit Social Producer: Emma Jackson Assistant Producer: Alfie Rowe Producer: Becki Hills Head of History: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03David McCloskey?

  For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the Declassified Club at therestisclassified.com.

• 0:25David McCloskey?

  An intelligence alliance established to spy on the Soviets during the Cold War. But will it be able to hold up under crisis? Well, welcome to The Rest Is Classified. I'm David McCloskey.

• 0:36Gordon Corera?

  And I'm Gordon Corera.

• 0:37David McCloskey?

  This is our second episode, looking at the Five Eyes intelligence relationship. Last time, we looked at how US-UK intelligence cooperation during World War II, really predating World War II, sort of you get the little embryonic starts of cooperation between the two countries, how it solidifies or begins to solidify and really spreads to Canada, New Zealand, and Australia during and after the Second World War. We ended with really the beginning, the first kind of decade of the Cold War. And we are now going to pick up the story of this Five Eyes intelligence relationship as the Cold War gets going.

• 1:18David McCloskey?

  We are once again very lucky to be joined by Richard Kurbagh, who's the author of The Secret History of the Five Eyes, a wonderful book about this relationship, most recently The Defector, and who is also, maybe most importantly, in Australia.

• 1:33Gordon Corera?

  Welcome back.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  It's great to be back. Thanks for having me back.

• 1:35Gordon Corera?

  So we started last time, Richard, you know, explaining a little bit about what it is and what it isn't. It's not an organization, the Five Eyes. It is still mainly a signals intelligence alliance, isn't it? We should explain what signals intelligence are. That's the heart of it, isn't it? Which is, which is collecting signals, in this case, communications, intercepting traffic and communications in order to be able to decode it. That's what it grew out from, the Bletchley Park story, but also what it is at this point.

• 2:06Gordon Corera?

  This episode is brought to you by HP.

• 2:09David McCloskey?

  In intelligence work, it's rarely the obvious problem that causes failure. It's the overlooked detail or the flaw nobody quite solved, the kind of vulnerability intelligence services look for.

• 2:21Gordon Corera?

  And running a business is the same, especially when you're building or growing a team. It's the risks you can't see or don't understand. HP designs technology so devices, collaboration tools, and security work together as a single system, helping teams keep everything running smoothly at home, in the office, and out in the field.

• 2:41David McCloskey?

  The protection is built in. Hardware-level security working quietly in the background, helping reduce risk without creating more work.

• 2:49Gordon Corera?

  With a team of business advisors, HP helps businesses of all sizes find technology that fits their needs and budget.

• 2:57David McCloskey?

  To see how HP helps businesses work securely and productively, visit hp.com/classified. The Rest Is Classified listeners also benefit from 10% off HP Business Technology with code TRIC10.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer, and no surprises along the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee, and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, Ts and Cs apply.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  Want to be the one who's always in the know about the game, the scores, the plays? Here's a tip, the Apple Sports app. Just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules. And when your team scores, it shows up right on your iPhone lock screen, making it easy to check in anytime. So rule the group chat and download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone.

• 4:34David McCloskey?

  I think it is worth setting up because we talk a lot about SIGINT, Signals Intelligence, on this program. But it's maybe worth setting up in kind of, I mean, Richard, in the early days of the Cold War, what are we talking about when we say Signals Intelligence?

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Well, this, at this point in 1956, this again predates some of the developments, big developments that we'd hear about, we'll hear about soon. For instance, Pine Gap in Australia, which we'll get to. But identifying Soviet missile launches, identifying Soviet comms, identifying developments in nuclear capabilities, identifying radar capabilities. All of that sort of works within the SIGINT.

• 5:19Gordon Corera?

  Yeah, it's more than just communications.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  It's more than that. Satellites, of course, satellites in 1956 hadn't really become a big thing yet. That's the next decade. But all of that will come under SIGINT collection.

• 5:31Gordon Corera?

  So it's more the technical end of intelligence, isn't it? It's the technical end of intelligence which is being shared, which I guess is also very expensive as well, which is where there's some benefit having geography and having the cost shared. But we left the story in 1956 as the alliance has kind of formed. But at that point, there is a crisis, isn't there? Which almost breaks it apart or risks breaking it apart. And that's the Suez Crisis. Let's, I mean, we should explain.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I describe it as an alliance almost breaking up during the honeymoon period. It's a bit like Madonna and some other rock star getting married and sort of going to Vegas and falling apart. That's essentially what happened to the Five Eyes, right? So within a few days, almost two weeks of it coming together in October 1956 and officially being signed off, there is, there are multiple things happening concurrently. You've got the Hungarian Revolution, which the Americans were concerned about. So were the Brits. And you've got the crisis in the Middle East that was now emerging. This is a crisis in that they were essentially fighting over a narrow strip of water that was crucial for.

• 6:41Gordon Corera?

  The Suez Canal, yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  That's the Suez Canal, right? And, and so you've got the British, the French, and the Israelis plotted to invade Egypt.

• 6:51Gordon Corera?

  And because, because NASA in Egypt has nationalized the Suez Canal.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:54Gordon Corera?

  And they're unhappy with that. And I guess the crucial, the crucial point is that the Brits are doing it without the Americans.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. And they didn't inform the Americans. Americans weren't happy about this. The Americans are always happy to lock the Brits out. But when it's the other way around, David, just so we could say, mate. It's not cool, right? It's like, I want to lock your secrets. So they've locked out the Americans, but the Americans discovered this and they're not very happy. So Eisenhower at the time, he's particularly unhappy because he's got a second term that he's trying to secure.

• 7:22Gordon Corera?

  1956, he's got the election campaign.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  The election campaign he's got to worry about. He's got to worry about the Hungarian Revolution. The issue with the Hungarian Revolution is that the CIA had very little coverage there because it only had one officer on the ground who was stationed at the embassy there. And I go into that in the book. But more importantly, Eisenhower's trying to figure out, well, now the Soviet Union's been quite threatening towards Britain. He didn't like that either. So he wanted to get some sense of how much of that was genuine or how much of that was sort of just bluster and talk. And so he tasks the CIA to figure out what the situation is with the Soviet

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Union and whether or not Moscow is likely to attack, conduct a military attack against Britain. Meanwhile, the UK is collecting intelligence on diplomatic and military communications from the Soviet Union. So they feel that they've got some sense of coverage of what Moscow's thinking at that point. In addition to all of that, GCHQ and MI5 had created this operation in London where they bugged the Egyptian Embassy in London. So they were listening to communications there. And this is a crucial thing because in early November 1956, the British managed

• 8:52Speaker 02

  to intercept communications between the Egyptian ambassador in the UK and the Egyptian ambassador in Moscow. And the ambassador in Moscow told his counterpart in the UK that the Soviets were really considering military action. Now, we will never know to what extent that helped shape Britain's decision to walk away because there were a number of reasons why that ceasefire was then put in place. But what we do know is that that played a fairly crucial role in getting a sense of what the Soviets were thinking. But what the Brits didn't know at the time is that the Russians knew that the place was bugged, as they were feeding misinformation through there, giving the

• 9:35Speaker 02

  whole kind of indication, especially through the Cold War, that the Russians kind of seemed to be several steps ahead when it came to espionage.

• 9:43Gordon Corera?

  How big were the tensions, though, between the US and the UK over Suez when it comes to the intelligence relationship? I mean, was it, was it at risk of breaking down?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  I think it, declassified material that we've seen later suggested that it got close to, but I don't think it was ever going to break down. I think it was more of a political issue. And so Eden, Anthony Eden, the Prime Minister of the UK, couldn't get the military backing from Eisenhower. And I think that diminished him on the global stage. So there's one argument that this is the beginning of the collapse of the empire. I don't think it, that was the moment. I think, I think what it did is it really diminished it, the empire's strength and projection on the world stage.

• 10:28Gordon Corera?

  It's more about the kind of relative power becoming clearer between the US and the UK.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Well, the US became the donor. At that point, the US is like, you do what we say, essentially. And that will become a common theme, a pattern, because the US is very much the lead singer and everyone else is a vocal, vocalist, right? A backup vocalist. And a lot of people didn't like that when I describe it that way, particularly the Aussies. They were like, why are we saying this? But it's true because it becomes the dominant force in resources, in capabilities, in, in just its ability to reach.

• 10:59David McCloskey?

  It is worth saying, I think, that the hard logic of the relationship.

• 11:07David McCloskey?

  Which I think is one of the, I mean, it's a theme and it's something we'll continue to talk about throughout the series, is that when you talk about signals intelligence in particular, it's really, really expensive in this era. It's very capital intensive. And geography matters. It still matters today, but back then it really mattered because if you're trying to intercept satellite downlinks, or you're trying to intercept even kind of regional or local communications, the way it's done with, you know, microwaves or high frequency radar, whatever it might be, being closer is a huge advantage, right?

• 11:49David McCloskey?

  And so even if you have a political dispute with another member of the Five Eyes, the underlying business logic

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:58David McCloskey?

  of sharing, of pooling resources, end up having access to bases in Wellington or in Cyprus, you know, or in Oman, that really, that really matters.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  That's what it's about.

• 12:11David McCloskey?

  That's what it's about.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  And also it's a burden sharing thing. So they essentially split the world into five pieces. There was some overlap. So with the UK in 1956, the UK's responsibilities were east of the Eurail Mountains. So, you know, cutting through Russia to Kazakhstan, east of, so anything that's, you know, Poland, Ukraine, Germany, that, that was kind of the UK's responsibility, but they also had parts of Africa as well to monitor. Then the US had Russia, China, Middle East, also bits of Latin America. The Canadians looked at eastern Russia as opposed to west that the UK was looking at, and also did some of Latin America. And then when the Aussies joined and the New Zealanders, they looked

• 12:56Speaker 02

  at sort of East Asia, Southeast Asia. And that's where China becomes a very important factor here in the 1950s, because of course China becomes the PRC, people's probably in China, of China in 1949, and very quickly begins developing capabilities that are quite worrying to the Five Eyes, from the nuclear developments to the eventual Sino-Soviet split. And so from a collection perspective, the Americans then set up a base in Australia in the 1960s called Pine Gap. Pine Gap is quite crucial at this stage. It's crucial for a number of reasons. One is Pine Gap was set up under the auspices of being a military

• 13:40Speaker 02

  base rather than a intelligence base. The chief of Pine Gap was supposed to be a military officer rather than a CIA officer, but of course it was a CIA officer. His name is Richard Stolling and

• 13:53David McCloskey?

  And it's a US base

• 13:54Speaker 02

  It's a

• 13:54David McCloskey?

  in Australia.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Very much. Well, it's US run. It's called a, you know, it's a cooperation, but come on, it's, yeah, the, the Americans are very much.

• 14:03Gordon Corera?

  Well, we, I mean, we have the same thing in the UK. You have

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:05Gordon Corera?

  Men with Hill, you know, and

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 14:07Gordon Corera?

  Findings Dells, you have these

• 14:08Speaker 02

  I mean, the Americans just trying to take over everything. Let's just face

• 14:10Gordon Corera?

  And they're loosely RAF bases, but you know, staffed by Americans. And it's, you know, that's

• 14:16Speaker 02

  So it's, it's joint, but yeah, it's, it's US. And that becomes a point of contention for a number of reasons. Before I move on to them, I'd just like to set up the picture of who this guy is, Richard Stollings from the CIA. He was, so he was a SIGINT specialist who had been based in Germany. He joined the Navy during wartime, developed a set of skills, obviously went through the ranks and got promoted and was sent to Australia. And so in the late 1960s, when Pine Gap was created, he was overseeing it. And he will become a quite controversial figure in the early 1970s when Goff Whitlam comes into power, Goff Whitlam being the Labor Australian Prime Minister, he comes into power. And

• 15:01Speaker 02

  this is after more than 20 years of Labor being out of power as a result of the Petrov stuff

• 15:06David McCloskey?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  to a great degree that we've spoken about earlier. Of course, there are other reasons that Labor stayed out of power, but this, this is one of the key things. And so when Whitlam comes in, eventually he wants to distance Australia from the US. He thinks we're too reliant on the Americans. He feels that this ASIO, so the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, that is the domestic intelligence agency, is slightly captured by the US and too reliant on the US. And he wants to create some separation. Of course, ASIO is starting to feel separation anxiety here ahead of time. So they, they don't like this. The Americans don't like this. And eventually his government authorizes a raid

• 15:50Speaker 02

  of the ASIO headquarters. Imagine that.

• 15:52Gordon Corera?

  Their own head, intelligence headquarters.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Yes. Imagine, imagine

• 15:55Gordon Corera?

  The Prime Minister raiding MI5.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  MI5 or the CIA or the FBI. Yeah. So that

• 16:00Gordon Corera?

  Can you actually imagine it these days in America? That's another story. Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's to come. So they, they raid the place for a number of reasons. The, the reasons they were, they'd given at the time, you know, beyond their closeness to the US is that they felt that ASIO was too focused on communists and not enough focus was given to nationalists,

• 16:23David McCloskey?

  All threats.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  terrorists, et cetera. That was the reasoning. And then there's a counter explanation that, you know, he just, he had it with ASIO. And so as a result, Whitlam government raided them. That caused a huge problem for anyone sharing with ASIO, particularly the Canadians and the US, they were getting in touch. We know this now through declassified material. They were trying to get some assurances that how is this going to impact our intelligence? This is our product that we've shared. Are you going to share it on? Eventually, that slightly settled down, but Goff Whitlam couldn't get it out of his head that those Americans are up to something. And then he discovers that at Pine Gap, there was this guy, Richard Stollings, who had been running Pine Gap. And he discovers that this guy may have been

• 17:09Speaker 02

  a CIA officer. He wasn't really a military officer. So he gets his people to look into that. And they discover that his name was never shared as part of the CIA list because there is this agreement, you know, don't spy on each other, but also identify each other's officers. There was this agreement that we will give you all the information about our declared officers and vice versa. Well, he wasn't declared. And that really infuriated Goff Whitlam. There were a number of issues that led up to his departure, eventual departure, but that was among them. There, there continues to be a debate about the extent to which

• 17:52Speaker 02

  the CIA and US played a role in his ousting. Because on the day that he was ousted by the Governor General, he was essentially sacked. Imagine being fired, imagine the Prime Minister

• 18:03Gordon Corera?

  Fired his Prime Minister.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Not just being fired, but he was fired and the opposition leader was appointed as caretaker Prime Minister.

• 18:11Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's unprecedented and it's never going to happen again, maybe. I, I don't know. But it was just so shocking. And there's, I go into that in great detail in the book.

• 18:20Gordon Corera?

  So the, the suggestion is that actually the

• 18:23Speaker 02

  He was going to reveal details about Pine Gap and he was going to reveal details about the Pine Gap chief, former chief.

• 18:30Gordon Corera?

  And that, that may be why he's made a theory at least.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Well, it's a very strong theory. And also there was just a fear within the CIA and US intelligence that by coming out to discuss all of these, this could compromise intelligence. So it was a buildup to that.

• 18:47David McCloskey?

  What does, what does, in this period of the Cold War, what value is Pine Gap providing to the, the signals intelligence agencies

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Huge value because this is, the 1960s, sort of the satellites era, you know. So the, it's communicating with US satellites to intercept communications, say from Russia and China, as I said. So China at this point has now developed the nuclear weapon. So they're able to track radar communications. They're able to track missile tests. They're, you know, from reentry of high ballistic missiles to ballistic missiles being launched. They're trying to identify, in some cases, troop movements, thinking, you know, trying to get ahead of time. That's essentially what it is doing.

• 19:30Gordon Corera?

  So there with a sense of maybe some of the tensions between the US and Australia. Let's take a break and afterwards we'll look at some of the tensions between the UK and the US and also how the New Zealanders get into all kinds of trouble. See you after the break.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter. That's why understanding your treatment options matters. Discover what's possible with Trinphiya. Guselkumap. Trinphiya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible, or call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Trinphiya and visit trinphiyradio.com.

• 20:28Speaker 06

  Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Terzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems, to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Terzepatide and should not be used with other Terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles.

• 21:10Speaker 06

  Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor.

• 21:51Speaker 06

  Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 21:59Speaker 07

  This episode is brought to you by Petivity. Cat parents are basically mealtime detectives. Who actually ate? Did they finish? Was that less than yesterday? The new Petivity Smart Feeder for cats turns everyday meals into meaningful health insights, helping you identify changes in your cat's habits and be more proactive about their health. Plus, you can feed them from anywhere. Take the mystery out of mealtime. Visit petivity.com, P-E-T-I-V-I-T-Y.com/catfeeder to learn more.

• 22:33Gordon Corera?

  Welcome back. So we talked a bit about Australia there, but actually there's going to be some tension between the two, I guess, core partners, the US and the UK.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  The special relationship.

• 22:42Gordon Corera?

  The special relationship is going to come under some strains in the 60s and 70s. And it's particularly thanks to our dear friend, Kim Philby, isn't it? And that issue of whether the Brits can be trusted. And we've done some of our series on Philby, the early Philby, but we're going to come to the later Philby towards the end of this year. But it does play a big role, doesn't it, in creating suspicion within the Five Eyes in between the US and the UK, Richard?

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Not just creating suspicion, but also I think it impacts Britain's confidence, self-confidence, because in the late 1951, you had Burgess and McLean defect. And then you had Blake defect in early 1960s. And then you had Philby defect, I think in 63, 64. So there have been these defections to the other side of the Iron Curtain. It's not looking good for MI5 as a domestic agency. And so it's becoming increasingly deferential to the CIA. At the CIA, you've got this very strong character, strong-willed character, who suffers from a great deal of paranoia as well, a man called James Jesus Angleton, who was the head of counterintelligence at the CIA, so essentially the chief mole hunter.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  And he is convinced that the CIA has got moles and the KGB has penetrated the CIA, but also convinced that they've penetrated MI5 and potentially MI6. And the reason he's convinced is twofold. One, he was really broken by Philby's defection because Philby was one of his mentors in the lead up to the defection. And two, is because a man who defected to the West in 1961, Anatoly Galitsin, can reinforce that belief that the KGB had penetrated the CIA. And he said to him, you've got spies all over. So they ran mole hunts within the CIA.

• 24:35Gordon Corera?

  Even the British Prime Minister, you know, Harold Wilson might be a spy.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Harold Wilson in 1964. In fact, there's a great scene where Jim Angleton flies over to the UK to meet with the heads, respective heads of MI5 and MI6. And he says, I believe we've got evidence that Harold Wilson, your new Prime Minister, is a spy. And they said, well, can you share the intelligence? And he said, no, we can't share the intelligence. And you can't tell the cabinet members about it, but we need you to investigate. And of course, MI5 just thinks this is going a bit too far. We're not going to act on this. And they rightly didn't act. And that would later on become, was proved to be information that he'd obtained from Anatoly Galitsin.

• 25:16Gordon Corera?

  Who had been, yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  And another case, so at this point, the CIA is also trying to impact, affect changes in leadership at MI5. So in coalition with the White House, they dispatch a couple of officers under the cover of CIA officers. So these two people come out to the UK to ingratiate themselves with the British intelligence community. And they're specifically here to collect dirt on MI5, on its leadership, on its managerial setting, and on Roger Hollis, who was the Director General of MI5 at the time, and who would eventually become a suspect himself in these sort of mole hunts. And then they went back, these two individuals, pulled together a report that criticized

• 26:02Speaker 02

  MI5. MI5 discovered this. And so they confronted the deputy head of the CIA station here, saying, if this happens again, you'll be kicked out. So these are tensions now bubbling up. You fast forward through the 1960s towards the end, and a lot of the information that the CIA had provided is being discredited. It's turned out to not be true. All of the mole hunts have resulted in nothing. About 40 to 50 people at the CIA had their lives torn apart and ruined because of this mole hunt that went nowhere. So in the early 1970s and 1971, MI5 gets an approach from a young KGB officer, Oleg

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Lialin, who was working out here in the UK as a trade official. And he approaches MI5 through a police station, saying, I have information to give. And they quickly discover this is a guy who's suffering from a premature, sort of midlife crisis, who's got multiple girlfriends cheating on his wife, and he wants to figure a way out of it. They debrief him repeatedly, and they eventually discover that what he's telling him is actually true. But the key thing here is that they didn't share any of that information with the CIA.

• 27:15Gordon Corera?

  Why not?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Because the CIA had tried to convince MI5, and did convince MI5 through the 1960s, that any defector who comes your way is likely to be a sent defector. And so that meant that if they were to share that information about Oleg Lialin...

• 27:30Gordon Corera?

  The Americans would just dismiss it.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Precisely. So they held it back, they corroborated the information, and eventually worked out that we need to expel Soviet spies. And that's the subject of my new book, The Defector. And I'll go into that in some detail. But the point being there is that they identify 105 Soviet spies to kick out of the country. The big question was, do we tell the Americans that we're going to do this? Well, the Americans were always going to prioritize détente, as part of their thinking.

• 27:58Gordon Corera?

  Improving relations with the Soviet Union.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And they didn't care about, if the two things had to compete, if preserving détente had to compete with Britain's national security, they'll always choose détente over that. So Ted Heath at the time decides, we're not going to tell our American friends. And so they trigger this expulsion of Soviet spies. And that's what really irritates Henry Kissinger, who at the time is the National Security Advisor, and also Richard Nixon, who's the President.

• 28:30David McCloskey?

  Well, I mean, one of the dynamics that I do find really fascinating about the whole alliance is a lot of the stories we talk about, most of them actually, centre on essentially the human relationship, which makes sense because that tends to be louder, much easier to get into the public domain.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  It's far more compelling as well than people sitting in front of keyboards.

• 28:51David McCloskey?

  Right, exactly. But what's fascinating is that even when you have tension, we talk about tension in the political relationship shaping the security relationship, even when there's tension in the human relationship.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:01David McCloskey?

  I mean, are there examples in this period of tension in the human relationship bubbling into the sigint sharing?

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Yom Kippur War in 1973. So that's where the British refused to join the war and also refused to allow the Americans to use their bases.

• 29:20Gordon Corera?

  Very similar to the debate recently about the British bases being used in the Iran War this year.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Precisely.

• 29:26Gordon Corera?

  And so in that case, Britain and the Heath government, which is quite pro-European as well, which the Americans don't like.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 29:32Gordon Corera?

  They get very angry about that, don't they?

• 29:33Speaker 02

  They get very angry. In fact, they cut, that was the only time that I could find in the archives where they severed intelligence sharing with the Brits. And that lasted for about six months or so, where CIA and NSA stopped, mainly, I think it was CIA. So there were still sort of signals, but there was a lot of tension that was going on. Now, the problem with completely severing is that I don't think you're ever going to have that because you're still going to get interactions on a personal level, as we're talking about sort of the importance of that. But that was a really tense period.

• 30:07David McCloskey?

  Do you have any sense in that period of, well, I guess, how the human was cut off? Is it, or maybe even going deeper, how do you turn the sigint off?

• 30:19Gordon Corera?

  I mean, it sounds like it kind of half turned off.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:21Gordon Corera?

  And they wanted to turn it off, but they didn't.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  But you can't because it's in their best interest to keep it on. Exactly.

• 30:28Gordon Corera?

  So it's, I mean, because it sounds, when you read the accounts of it, as if what happens is Henry Kissinger, National Security Advisor, says, stop this.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 30:36Gordon Corera?

  But actually, at the working level, they kind of keep going on the signals intelligence.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Well, he orders the CIA and the NSA to just cut them. He says, cut them. And there is, there are transcripts of telephone conversations that are now declassified and which he goes into that. He said, like, cut these. But then they work around it. And that's not uncommon.

• 30:55Gordon Corera?

  They work around it, basically.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  They work around it.

• 30:56Gordon Corera?

  So the professionals, the intelligence professionals, find ways of keeping sharing, even though they've been told to stop.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  And that's always, that's a very common pattern because that's the, I think that's one of the most fascinating things about the alliance is that, yes, you've got the political leadership and your political masters, but what's happening on the ground is on another level, and it might be below all the chaos, but that's where the important

• 31:22Gordon Corera?

  Which is very relevant for today, isn't it? I mean, we'll come back to that, I guess, you know, later.

• 31:25David McCloskey?

  Well, the other piece is that, especially when you're talking about sigint, the way those reports are disseminated inside the US system is that I, as an analyst, don't get a report that says this is from GCHQ necessarily, or from the Aussies, or the Canadians, or whomever. That stuff tends to go through NSA. And then when it's disseminated by NSA, it's oftentimes not exactly clear which foreign partner it came from.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  They relabel it.

• 31:55David McCloskey?

  The net result of that is that oftentimes policymakers, in particular when you get to the higher levels, don't have an understanding of how much of the sigint comes from foreign partners and where it comes from. And so you can see why Kissinger is saying, well, hey, cut it off. Someone from the NSA might go to him and say, well, hold on.

• 32:13Gordon Corera?

  You don't know, half the stuff you're getting.

• 32:15David McCloskey?

  A bunch of these reports you're reading about Chinese submarine activity in the Pacific are not actually coming from us necessarily.

• 32:23Gordon Corera?

  So that actually, that kind of...

• 32:27Gordon Corera?

  Tension is there in 1973, but doesn't lead to an actual break. The one time someone does get kicked out, or kicked out maybe is a bit strongly.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Partially kicked out.

• 32:35Gordon Corera?

  Partially kicked out, is New Zealand. So we should talk about that because this is, it's interesting, isn't it? For many years, they are, even though technically they remain part of the Five Eyes, they're pushed out and it's, it's over, it's right, it's about New Zealand not wanting.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  A submarine wanting to dock in New Zealand waters.

• 32:52Gordon Corera?

  Not wanting nuclear warships and not wanting tests.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  So essentially you had David Langley, who was a newly elected prime minister in New Zealand in the mid 1980s. And he campaigned on non-proliferation. So when he got into power, he wanted to stick by his, and honor his campaign message. So when the Reagan administration wanted to dock a nuclear powered submarine in New Zealand waters, he said, you can't do it. And what's extraordinary here is that the smallest member of Five Eyes stood up to the biggest member of Five Eyes. So very quickly Reagan did not like that. He's, you know, he's had enough of people standing up for the US, but particularly like New Zealand standing up for the US, he wasn't going to take it.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  So he essentially ordered that military sharing stops and military training and also wanted to sever the signals intelligence exchanges. And that's when the NSA director at the time approached the White House and said, well, we can't actually do this. We physically can't do this. We're so embedded in each other's networks. However, what we'll do is we'll kind of, we'll keep that quiet because of course at this time, no one even knows what the Five Eyes is. None of this is public yet. We're talking about secrets, you know, things happening and, you know, chat rooms and back rooms, what have you. No one knows about this in the, in the real world. So they decide to maintain that intelligence sharing, but also the CIA continues to provide

• 34:22Speaker 02

  some training to NZSIS. So there are exchanges, but they're not complete. And publicly they're kind of, they've fallen out with New Zealand.

• 34:35Gordon Corera?

  And that lasted for 20 years.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, about 19 years, I think it was, 19 or 20 years.

• 34:39Gordon Corera?

  Amazing, isn't it really to think?

• 34:41Speaker 02

  It's fascinating. It's fascinating, but then again, it, what's really fascinating about it is that they, they didn't fall apart.

• 34:47Gordon Corera?

  They didn't, they didn't fall apart.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  There was a lot happening under the surface. And that's quite reassuring, particularly when you get to see what's happening today and we'll get to that here at some point where you hear a lot of noise and chaos and you go, what's actually going on to happen with this alliance? And I'm pretty confident that it'll remain intact, but we'll get back to that.

• 35:07David McCloskey?

  Well, I also, you were gonna, I could tell you were gonna try to close out this episode without reading the quote from William Odom.

• 35:14Gordon Corera?

  Why don't you read it? This is a great quote.

• 35:16David McCloskey?

  You were trying to escape.

• 35:18Gordon Corera?

  No, read it. I think you should read it because it's an American quote and it's in the diary of William Odom, who's head of the NSA, the American signals intelligence. So it's his kind of diary rather than the public statement in the, in the late 1980s. It's quoted though, in the authorized history of GCHQ. It's about his relation.

• 35:34David McCloskey?

  I wonder why GCHQ put this in the official history.

• 35:38Gordon Corera?

  Yeah.

• 35:38David McCloskey?

  And I think the analytical point here is that, you know, we've talked about political friction and sort of how even when that gets pretty hot, the way it bubbles down into the intelligence relationship is pretty limited. And the signators in particular find ways to keep sharing stuff even when the politicians don't like it. But even when there are personal frictions between the signators, the sharing continues because, so this is, this is William Odom, who'd been the head of the NSA in the late 80s, who wrote in his diary, he said, he wrote, Peter Merrychurch, my UK counterpart, is the least attractive of the lot. A tense, nervous, slightly insecure civil servant.

• 36:19David McCloskey?

  He has as his main task to stay fully entangled with the US system, to try and act as our equivalent in Europe, to stand between us and other Europeans if possible. He and his immediate subordinates hold, in my view, a vastly inflated view of their own competence and talents. Their system under the Foreign Office has poor ties to the Ministry of Defence and therefore cares a little about intelligence support to military operations. I would argue that's still true today. The big question for me is what geographic access in the UK will cost for the rest of the century? This is really about all we are getting and can get for this excessively entangled bilateral connection.

• 37:03David McCloskey?

  Socially, I no longer find the British amusing. I'm merely a pain in the ass.

• 37:08Gordon Corera?

  Wow. Words you could echo.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 37:11Gordon Corera?

  After, after.

• 37:12David McCloskey?

  Put it on a T-shirt.

• 37:15Gordon Corera?

  I think it's such an interesting quote because, I mean, I think Odom was quite, I met him once actually, he was quite a kind of cantankerous, military focused NSA guy.

• 37:23David McCloskey?

  Well, he didn't find you amusing.

• 37:24Gordon Corera?

  No, he definitely did not find you amusing.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  He was a pain in the ass, yeah.

• 37:27Gordon Corera?

  But, but I think you're right. The point about that that's interesting is that even when you have clearly a bit of animosity and friction between the boss of the NSA and the boss of the GCHQ, the relationship fundamentally survives. And I think that's because of the common interest, isn't it, at that point?

• 37:44David McCloskey?

  It is, but it's also, as he notes, to some extent, a very technical problem in that we're all excessively, in his words, excessively entangled.

• 37:53Gordon Corera?

  Entangled. And Britain's bringing geography to the table and bringing stuff to the table. And for the Americans, it's hard to disentangle.

• 37:59David McCloskey?

  Right. And his, his line there, which is actually quite cantankerous but perceptive is, how much is that geographic access going to cost me?

• 38:07Gordon Corera?

  What's it worth?

• 38:07David McCloskey?

  What's it worth?

• 38:08Gordon Corera?

  So that's maybe a good place to stop this episode as we get really to the end of the Cold War. Next time we'll look at how far the Five Eyes adapts to the end of the Cold War and whether it survives into a new era with new threats. Thank you again to Richard Kabarge, author of The Secret History of the Five Eyes.

• 38:26David McCloskey?

  And also should note for club members, of course, will get access to this entire series right now, including the bonus interviews we're doing with people who have actually sat in the chair at these Five Eyes meetings and have really, I think, a deep sense of the inner workings of the alliance. So if you have not already, do go and join the Declassified Club at the rest is classified dot com. We'll see you next time.

• 38:49Gordon Corera?

  See you next time.

• 38:55Speaker 04

  For marketers, controlling how your brand shows up in AI search is a top priority. That's why a third of the Fortune 100 and companies like Figma, Ramp and Cursor rely on Profound. Profound is a leading AI marketing platform that shows you what people ask AI and what AI says back about your brand. Profound's AI marketer then does the work to improve your brand's visibility, accuracy and strength against competitors in AI search. To control how AI talks about your brand, go to profound.com.

• 39:25Speaker 05

  Where some see heroes and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect. Stop, this is Simply Safe. Police are on the way. Using smart AI cameras, live US-based agents help deter intruders in under 30 seconds. Don't just record a break-in, stop it from ever happening. Plans starting around $1 a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com/spotify. 30 seconds response time requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at $49.99 a month. Visit simplysafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.