Steven Bartlett on Mastering Business & Life: Outside The Box Lessons On Mindset, Ambition, Vulnerability & What Matters Most

Today we’re going to deep deep into the world of business leadership and personal development with a truly extraordinary person—entrepreneur, renowned speaker, investor, and the host of the UK’s No.1 podcast Diary of a CEO, Steven Bartlett. For the uninitiated, Steven is the co-founder of Flight Story, a marketing and communications company that works with some of the world’s most cutting-edge brands, as well as ThirdWeb, a San Francisco-based software company, and the venture enterprise FlightFund. He is the youngest ever host of Dragon’s Den (UK’s version of Shark Tank), he was included in the Forbes 30 Under 30 list, and has delivered talks for the UN, SXSW, and TEDx. But Steven’s formal bio fails to tell the story of how an outcast kid with very little means who dropped out of university would go on to become not only a wildly successful entrepreneur whose ongoing concerns generate hundreds of millions in revenue—but also a genuine thought leader on everything from business and leadership to personal growth and well-being. Today Steven shares how his upbringing shaped the trajectory of his life, interspersed with diamonds on discipline, balancing ambition with self-care, and the power of intuition. We also talk about the challenges of celebrity, the relationship between insecurity and ambition, and many other impactful lessons that you can read about in Steven’s wonderful new book aptly titled, Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws of Business and Life. This one is going to inspire, educate, and challenge you to think differently about success and fulfillment. And it might just redefine your goals and relationship with ambition entirely. Show notes + MORE Watch On YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Peak Design: PeakDesign.com/RICHROLL. Birch: BirchLiving.com/RICHROLL AG1: DrinkAg1.com/RICHROLL Indeed: Indeed.com/RICHROLL Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. The discomfort around the idea of doing nothing, I think, is worthy of investigation.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Why wouldn't I go and hang out in beautiful places around the world, in beaches, and just relax and just do something else and not be obsessed? And it is, it's an obsession, my team knows. It's a seven-day-a-week-everywhere-I-go obsession.

• 1:35Rich Roll?

  Why?

• 1:37Speaker 01

  I...

• 1:41Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. So, I was in London this past spring, and I had the great opportunity of being a guest on a very popular podcast called Diary of a CEO, hosted by a young guy I had never previously met called Stephen Bartlett.

• 1:57Rich Roll?

  Now, I've been a guest on many, many podcasts, but this experience was different. And what stood out wasn't just the exceptional professionalism of his talented team or the high production values that have come to define this particular show and its rapid ascent to the top of the charts. It was actually Stephen himself, who I found to be one of the most genuinely curious, kind, prepared, thoughtful, and intentional people I've ever met in this space. Stephen pushed me to dimensions I never previously ventured in public conversation. So when I found myself again in London last month, I jumped on the opportunity to return the favor.

• 2:40Rich Roll?

  For the uninitiated, Stephen is the co-founder of Flight Story, a marketing and communications company that works with some of the world's most cutting-edge brands, as well as Third Web, a San Francisco-based software company, and the venture enterprise Flight Fund. He is the youngest ever host or co-host of Dragon's Den, UK's version of Shark Tank. He was included in Forbes 30 Under 30 list. He's delivered talks for the UN, South by Southwest, and TEDx. And in just two years, he has upended the podcast world with Diary of a CEO, which sits steadily at number one on the UK podcast charts.

• 3:19Rich Roll?

  But Stephen's formal bio fails to tell the story of how an outcast kid with very little means, who dropped out of university after just one lecture, would ultimately go on to become not only a wildly successful entrepreneur, a disruptor whose ongoing concerns generate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, but also a genuine thought leader on everything from business and leadership to personal growth and wellbeing. A few more things I want to say about Stephen before we get into it, but first.

• 3:58Rich Roll?

  Okay, Stephen Bartlett. In today's conversation, Stephen shares how his upbringing shaped the trajectory of his life, interspersed with absolute gold on discipline, balancing ambition with self-care, the power of intuition, the challenges of celebrity, the relationship between insecurity and ambition, and many other impactful lessons, more fully fleshed out in Stephen's wonderful new book, aptly titled, you guessed it, Diary of a CEO: The 33 Laws of Business and Life. If you're new to Stephen, you'll soon understand just how special he is. And if you're already a fan, I can fairly say that this is Stephen as you've never before seen or heard him.

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  If you're seeking deeper meaning and purpose in your work or in your life, you are in the right place, because this one is likely to inspire, educate, and challenge you to think differently about success, about fulfillment, and it might just redefine your goals and relationship with ambition entirely. So, here we go. This is me and Stephen Bartlett.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  Stephen, how are you?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  I'm good. I'm good. I'm feeling really, really good.

• 5:17Rich Roll?

  I ask you that because that's how you typically begin all of your interviews. And I'm curious why you ask that question at the beginning of your interviews, particularly in light of this idea that you talk about in the new book around grabbing people's attention in the first five seconds, because that question doesn't feel like an attention-grabbing type of situation.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  So I ask that question when I feel like the person sat in front of me might have an honest, important answer to that question. That bucks the trend of just giving a flippant, "Yeah, I'm good. Thank you." And I also ask it because there's no amount of research that I could have done beforehand to understand how someone's truly feeling in that moment. How they're feeling in that moment then drives the rest of the conversation profoundly. And I've had instances where I've done days of research, and I've walked in and sat with Simon Sinek and said, "How are you feeling?" And he's responded, "I'm feeling really, really lonely right now." In that moment, all of the research goes out the window and the next two and a half hours are about loneliness. And so that's why I asked the question.

• 6:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I watched your latest vlog last night and a couple of things stuck out from that viewing experience. The first of which is the incredible amount of endurance that you bring to what you do because in one day you did a public appearance in the morning, you then did three back-to-back interviews for Diary of a CEO. I think I've only done three in a day once. I don't know how you have the energy to maintain focus for that extended period of time. And then you did a live event with Simon that night in front of 3,000 people in which

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  what you just referenced came up, this idea of him making the choice to be open and vulnerable in that moment and how that created a really unique and meaningful conversation for that episode.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  To answer your question then, in this moment, how I'm feeling is I feel like I've overextended myself in my life. I feel like 12 months ago or six months ago, I must have said yes to too many things and not have been cognizant of the nature of my, the fact that my time is finite. And this is a constant battle I have in my life, which is my ambition is maybe exceeding my capacity, which I need to put into check because I pay the price for that. I end up having, letting someone down somewhere and also therefore myself in the process. And right now where I'm at, I've definitely taken on too much stuff. So endurance is great. What we need is consistency and sustainability. We don't need intensity.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Intensity is maybe useful in spurts, but you can't maintain intensity for a consistent enduring period of time. Nobody can without something falling by the wayside. That matters.

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think if something...

• 8:17Rich Roll?

  Is on the calendar long enough into the distance, I'll almost always invariably say yes to it, only to woe the day when it arrives. And I'm constantly in that battle of trying to protect my time versus how that meets up with the goals that I'm setting for myself and the people pleasing tendencies that tend to creep up, where I want to be able to do right by my friends or fulfill a certain role that I'm privileged to hold right now. And I would imagine that you're in a similar situation, just at a 10x kind of volume.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Unfortunately so. Fortunately and unfortunately so. And the frame I try and apply to the decisions, when I see something on my list, a request that comes in, is how would I feel if I had to do that tomorrow? And that's the frame I should be applying, which is how would I feel if I had to do that later on today or tomorrow? Because I fall under the same bias, which is I defer it to a future Steve, who I can't yet understand the circumstances of the day that he's currently in. And by bringing it to today's Steve, it kind of helps me filter out things against my values and intentions. And that whole frame generally, I was talking about this last night to one of my friends, of really being cognizant that when you wake up every day after spending eight of your, as I talk about in my first

• 9:41Speaker 01

  book, proverbial chips on sleep, you have these 16 chips left. And how you place those 16 chips on the roulette table of life is the center point of your influence on your own life. The allocation of those 16 chips on this proverbial roulette table of life. And when the wheel spins every day, you find out the returns you've got. So these 16 chips, how do I place them? And what are my values? And you're trying to place them where your values are. And if you land on your values, you get great returns. So placing two against spending time with my girlfriend in the evening, placing four against my podcast, four against my businesses, two against DJing, one against gym, that's time I'll spend. And I might also, it's important to say this, I might place one against binging Netflix. If it

• 10:26Speaker 01

  was intentional, it's not wasted time. It's only wasted time in my regard when you didn't do it consciously and intentionally. And that framework is so important because if you look at anyone's how we allocate our time, it's so clear. We think we're going to live forever. It's why on all of my desks, on my bookshelf behind me on the diary of a CEO, I have this sand timer because I don't believe humans can imagine infinity or finality. I don't think we're capable of such a thing. So we allocate our time in trivial, regrettable ways, but our time is literally the currency we have. The allocation of my time up until this moment where I'm sat with you today is the thing that has put me in this chair today. It's like well allocated time in my regard because I managed to get, you know, to have a conversation with you. So thinking through

• 11:11Speaker 01

  that that framework and reminding myself that, you know, time is so precious and so finite allows you to hopefully make decisions about what you're doing with your day that are unregrettable, which is my goal at the moment.

• 11:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it requires or it demands a certain type of discipline that might not be immediately obvious because when we think about discipline, we think about, you know, how hard can we work or how can we make that hard choice to delay gratification. But discipline comes in many forms. I think the chapter in the new book about discipline, you come up with this equation, right? About that, which kind of speaks to, you know, what you just mentioned.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're so right because when I was starting in my career, when I'm 18, dropped out of university and I want to be successful. In my brain, I want to be rich and I'm going to be honest, I want to be rich and successful. In the first page of my diary, when I'm 18, shoplifting pizzas. My diary says, and I've uploaded this to the internet, I want a Range Rover Sport as my first car. I'll have a million before I'm 25. I'll have a girlfriend and a six pack. That was my north star in life. At that point, I say yes to everything. Anyone wants to meet me for anything, I'm saying yes. As you become more successful, you need to invert that framework and start saying no to most things. And even where I am now, there'll be things that come across my desk which are tempting my insecurities. Do you want to go to a Vogue party? Do you want

• 12:38Speaker 01

  to go walk the red carpet, the Oppenheimer premiere? These are all things in the last, do you want to go meet the king at the palace? You'll be there for six hours. You'll network, drink champagne and meet the king. These are all things that I've had to contend with and all things I've had to say no to. Because of they don't, in no way do they bring me closer to the life and the person I want to become. Going back to this discipline equation thing that I was writing about in the book. I actually, the title of that law in my book was about time. It was about time management. I started out to write about time management because everyone wants time management techniques. And as I go down there and as I start doing my research on time management techniques, I discovered there are hundreds. Right? And I also, if I'm honest with myself, there's none that I use.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  So I asked myself, why? And in the same way that there's lots of fad diets out there. The reason why there's so many time management techniques is because none of them fundamentally work. So people keep going in search of new ones and creating new ones because they lack the fundamental skill of discipline. So I asked myself, okay, why does discipline matter? Well, in a world where time is finite, as we've just discussed, you can only do so many things. And so I try and figure out why in some areas of my life I've been disciplined. With the gym, six, seven days a week, with DJing, with my businesses. And why in other areas of my life has my discipline lapsed? So I tried to write a simple equation, which is, and I'd love you to interrogate this with me because I'm still,

• 14:03Speaker 01

  you know, trying to refine the equation, but at the start of the equation, you have in simple terms. Why does the goal matter to you? Right? Plus, the psychological enjoyment you get in the pursuit of the goal. Minus, let's call it the psychological disengagement or the psychological friction associated with the goal. So with going to the gym, I started going in the, on March 2020, and I've been going for over three years now. March 2020, I watched a pandemic sweep the world and I watched through my TV screen. People dying because of their health circumstances and the correlation between outcomes and your health circumstance. It was so traumatic to me that it increased my why to so much so that the habit stuck.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  And it was so clear to me now that the foundation of all my goals, my businesses, my girlfriend, my relationship, my dog, my family was my health. I saw the tectonic plate shake underneath everything I care about.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  The pursuit itself of going to the gym is psychologically enjoyable as long as the gym is close and as long as it's private. So I'm not spending a lot of time just talking about the podcast with people. Minus the friction associated to it. So reducing the friction means me finding a private gym. I actually stopped going to the gym when. My, when people knew who I was, because people came up to me a lot, the friction increased. And Simon Sinek challenged this the other day with me and he goes, well, you know, like I get up every morning and I go and empty the bin outside my house because, and he goes, I don't enjoy that and it's not meaningful to me. I go, yeah, but it is, Simon. Because what happens if you, so if we examine that through that framework, what happens if you don't empty the bin outside your house, Simon? Well, you're going to get fined and it's going to overflow for the whole week. So your Y is actually pretty high.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  The enjoyment is low and the friction is high, but the Y is higher than the friction is getting out of bed at 8 a.m. It matters more to you, the Y, the pursuit, you know, achieving that goal, than the friction is unmotivating for you. If at some point they reduced the Y, so you would no longer get fines and you had a second bin, you wouldn't get out of bed, the friction would win out. And so the reason it's important to think through that framework is you can influence it. If there's something in your life where you're not disciplined, you can focus on those first, that first half of the equation. Remind yourself why this really, really matters to you and then do everything you can to make the pursuit of the goal as enjoyable and as engaging as you can.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  When I started learning to DJ, the game changer for me was moving the DJ equipment down to my kitchen table and saying to my girlfriend, I'm so sorry babe, for the next 12 months, please can I have all of my DJ equipment always plugged in with one button I flick to start it? Because when it takes 20 minutes and it's in the spare room, it's too much faff and, you know, confusion to get it set up.

• 16:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's basically about creating systems that are conducive to the choice you want to make being the convenient and easy to access choice. It reminds me of conversations I've had with Dan Buettner, the Blue Zones guy. He goes into cities and meets with councilmen and mayors and they're all about how do you create a healthier population? And instead of shaming people around their habits or trying to influence them to eat better or to ride their bikes to work, you have to create. A sort of city architecture that drives people in the right direction to make that choice. So you create bike paths and you create financial incentives to make those

• 17:32Rich Roll?

  choices and you remove the vending machines out of the schools and the city offices so that that unhealthy choice becomes the friction, to your point, becomes a little bit too much. And the healthier, easier choice just creates, it creates like an easy, open, kind of revolving door towards that.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it's the same in companies. You know, I've spent 10 years working with CEOs in companies and they'll write on the, on the wall of the, the office innovate or they'll write these cliches and these platitudes like fail faster. I also went undercover in a school four years ago, no, about seven years ago on a TV show. And I went in there as an expelled student with a bias that teachers are just not good at their jobs or maybe they don't care because I was kicked out of school. And when I saw the incentive structure and the headmaster sat me down and said, by the way, the reason why we push kids to get grades in subjects they don't like is because the amount of kids that walk through the, the door every year determines how much money the government give us. That decision is made by the league table. So the parents are looking at the league tables and deciding

• 18:34Speaker 01

  if they should send their kids here. And the league table is determined by the grades you get in these subjects. So the incentive structure in a school isn't let's find out what Rich Roll cares about, or why is Steven spending all of his time starting these businesses at 13 years old? Let's nurture that. It's we have to get him a grade in this subject he hates. Or I watched Mrs. Clowney have to pay out of her own pocket to buy the pencils and the footballs and the notepads for class because they, they were 50% under capacity. And in organizations, CEOs go innovate. But when you look at job descriptions, the job description is do your job. Do not take a risk.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  And so if you want to cause innovation in an organization, focus on incentive structures. And that's what I do in my own life. I focus on my incentive structures.

• 19:17Rich Roll?

  That point is made very clearly in the book, especially with the team kind of section here, how you empower people, how you try to get the, extract the best, most creative work by fostering a culture of experimentation, risk-taking, failure, all these sorts of things. But I want to get back to this idea of discipline and tying your discipline to a value structure, removing the friction. I think these are all great ideas, but when I reflect on how you meet out discipline in your own life, I suspect that you're somebody for whom, you know, things like hard work, taking risks, managing people, like, these are all disciplines that you've mastered,

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  but they're almost second nature. In other words, I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not sure that they require a tremendous amount of discipline or motivation on your part. So I'm curious around the habits or the buckets in your life that are demanding of your discipline, but which you still struggle.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that working out is still one of them. Going to the gym is still one of them, in the context of everything else that, did you look at my biceps?

• 20:31Rich Roll?

  You're looking good, Dan. And I know when you were in LA, you were, you were like, you know, sharing stuff when you were at the gym and...

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, in LA, I had a strong routine, but it's still a struggle because in the context of that day you saw, that you've referenced in my vlog, when could I have gone to the gym?

• 20:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know that it happened that day.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  It did, at 11:30 at night, but it was, it was a 10-minute workout. So Simon invited me to the after-party. I showed face at the after-party for 10 minutes, maybe less, and then I slipped out the back door and went, my driver dropped me at the gym, and I did a 10-minute workout. What's important for me there is that I, although it wasn't a good workout, I kept to my obligation with myself, my own self-story. That's something I continue to struggle with, and again, it comes back to overextending myself in terms of my calendar. And I have conversations with myself all the time. It's literally a mental dialogue, which is... A conversation about who I who I am and who I want to be and how the person that I want to be would be behaving at eleven thirty at night on this particular night.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  What would he do? And it's so interesting. That's why I talk about the self story a lot because no one's gonna know. No one's gonna know if I went to the gym. There's gonna be no evidence or results based on that ten minute workout. But it's purely a story and a conversation that I have with myself. And we all have a story about ourselves that we don't know is governing our lives. And if I didn't go then, it writes a new little line into my self story about the person I am. And it's a line in my story that I don't want. And having spoken to a lot of professional athletes and such, I I was able to identify that this those stories govern their lives when things are hardest. The most hard and my the gym thing is a difficult thing for me at the moment because I'm going. I went yesterday. I had to go at two P M. Just after I bumped into you in the street, actually, just before. But I struggle with that.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  But I fight I fight to get back on the horse every week.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think there's something deeper around that, which is the self esteem that you cultivate when you are living your life in integrity with your values. And if you establish that as a key value, this is who I am. I'm somebody who works out and you show up for that in yourself. When your head hits the pillow that night, you feel good about yourself, even if it was a ten minute workout, because you are true to your own word.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I allocated the time against my values.

• 22:46Rich Roll?

  You mentioned story. Story is a whole section in your new book as well, the importance of understanding story, how to tell a story and and being connected to the story that you tell yourself about who you are and the story that you're sharing with the world. So if I was to ask you, you're an individual, but you're also a public person and on that level, it, you know, as as cringy as it sounds, you are kind of a brand, right? Like, what is the story of you? Like, how do you articulate what that story is?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Have never really tried to articulate what that story is. I think that-

• 23:23Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting, given how much importance you place on this idea.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  It's really interesting because I know that the story of me exists in everyone's life who experiences me, and it's a completely different story for them. The thing that I, the controllable to influence that story is my actions. So, it was funny, I just had my hair cut before I came here. My barber was cutting my hair and he says, "Oh, man, people walk into the shop every day. They're always talking about you. Some people are saying this about you, some people are saying this about you, some people really like you, some people don't like you. Some people don't understand you, they're not sure if you're black enough, they're not sure if you're this." And I was just thinking to myself as you were saying that, there's this part of you that wants to jump to control that. "Maybe I'll start being more black, maybe I'll start doing this, maybe I'll start," you know. And then there's this other part that knows, "I'll never be able to control that."

• 24:08Speaker 01

  But the controllable is, I've got to keep doing myself justice and proud. And then from that, everyone will write their own story. Some people, that'll be inspiration, some it'll be something else. But I've never, I've never sat down and tried to articulate the story of me. I'm an entrepreneur, I think I'm a creative more than I probably let on. Because I'm, because I think about the work that I do and it's the creative stuff. And I'm someone that believes a lot in themselves and really wants others to believe in themselves more, so they can get close to their potential. That's maybe my story, but I don't think about it.

• 24:44Rich Roll?

  I want to double click on the self-belief piece in a minute, but before we get there, I was thinking to myself in preparing for this, like, what is it about this guy that's so interesting and compelling? And that, that, that has him sort of standing out from the crowd in who he is and what he does? And I'm sure there's a number of reasons or things that I could identify. But the thing that really, I think my brain hones in on, is this notion, or this innate capacity, maybe it's a gift that you have, or maybe it's a discipline, to come across wisdom-

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  To learn things, which a lot of us can do, but it's your ability to then apply these things to your life. You're so young and so accomplished at such a young age. And I see somebody who identifies a good idea and then is able to incorporate that into his life and produce returns as a result of it. Whereas, most people, I think, really struggle with this. We can all read books, we listen to podcasts, we're on the receiving end of good ideas quite frequently. But until we reach a certain pain point or crisis point in our life, we're very resistant to habit change. And to me, from the outside looking

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  in at you, you seem to have figured out a way to remove that resistance and kind of lean into habit change with a little more ease or facility.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  It's interesting. Such an interesting observation. One of the things I've noticed about myself is I'm not good at overstaying my welcome in situations where I don't feel good. And I'm also someone that doesn't, that often sees the thing you would consider a risk, I see that as the easy choice. And I see the thing people call the risk in my life as, yeah, the easy choice. And I see the risk. So I'm really referring to key moments in my life where I've quit stuff. I look at myself at 18 years old, going to that lecture and really hating it and deciding that I'd never go back and I didn't care.

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  Right. You did one lecture at business school, at university, and said that was it.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  To me, the risk was staying. But every interview I do, they say, oh, you've missed so much courage. The courage was staying in a situation where I didn't feel good. And then my mom calling me and saying, I won't speak to you ever again if you don't go back to university. And me being like, that's okay, she'll be fine. And that ease of moving away from situations that don't serve me and towards situations where I just feel good inside, which is this I can't believe the world ignores it. We all have this like compass, this this thing built inside us, which is how do you feel? And it's so low on our on our order of signals or voices that we tune into, which makes no sense to me. Everyone's, you know, like above that people rank their mother's opinion, the girl on Instagram that didn't like my nails. And for me, the most

• 27:42Speaker 01

  important number one is how do I feel? And when you apply that at a very young age, where you can gracefully move away from school at 14 years old and then get expelled, they actually unexpelled me because I was making them so much money. It's what my headmaster said on TV, and it's true. To university, don't like it there, built a startup for two years, investors, all of that, quit out of the blue. My second, my third company quit out of the blue again. If you can gracefully use that signal inside you, which is how do you feel in this situation and prioritize that, I think you get closer and fast. It takes less time for you to get to the life you want. And I'm so good at quitting. Like my last company, we were about to uplist on to the the second, a very large stock exchange, and I quit because I just didn't feel good anymore. And it wasn't a difficult decision for me. And if you think about what I left on the table in terms of

• 28:27Speaker 01

  monetary value, huge, it makes no sense as to why I quit. There was no branch I was swinging to. Just don't want to be here anymore. And that framework for life creates the impression that you're very good at, I don't know, discipline or making decisions, whatever it might be. But for me, it's, I don't know why people hang around in situations so long.

• 28:46Rich Roll?

  But you do. You do know why. I think that that authentic voice within all of us, you can call it your gut instinct or your intuition, is certainly, you know, a capacity that we all hold, but it gets worn down through social expectations, through societal expectations, through familial obligation, and and just the confusing aspects of what it means to grow up and try to figure out your place in the world. And I think, you know, with that, we we tend to repress that instinct. For some reason, you were able to maintain it. Perhaps it's a, in some people, it's that childlike nature and other in others, it's just a real, strong sense of

• 29:30Rich Roll?

  identity or an antenna for what serves you and what doesn't. But I think it's, it's, it's something that you've protected, but it's something that if left to our own devices and and without proper boundaries, gets eroded.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's it's a signal like hunger or thirst is a signal that it's deep inside you and it's there for a reason. It's a signal, a really important signal that's hardwired into you from generation and generation and generation. Like hunger and thirst is all you need to touch something and it's hot. So I pay attention to that signal. Last night.

• 30:04Rich Roll?

  But why? How were you able to do that? Like, I just know.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Never let me down.

• 30:07Rich Roll?

  I only have my own experience.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:09Rich Roll?

  And and I didn't really begin to connect with that until I was in my late 30s and early 40s. No one ever said to me like, what is it that you want to do? What's important to you? What makes you feel alive? Is there a way for you to feed that or fuel that or honor that at least? That's not part of our education system. It wasn't really the way that I was raised, to no fault of anybody. Perhaps mostly to my own fault for not respecting it, but that facility to appreciate and respect that signal within yourself, I think, is is almost an act of rebellion or, you know what I mean?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I completely know what you mean. And I think this comes back to the one skill that I think I have in the when I do an audit of how I came here versus my brothers, who are just these two super geniuses, both older than me, super geniuses, ones are mathly, LSE, Cambridge, whatever, geniuses, then there's me. The thing that I have, which is clearly different from them, I'm not smart, that them, they're smart, right?

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  You are smart, though.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  I'm smart in a different way. If you if you gave me a GCSE, which is the the grading system we have in the UK, I'm so low on on those scores at 16 years old, is self-belief. And I know this is, it sounds kind of cliched to say self-belief, but at 10 years old, my parents stopped being parents, basically. So I'm the youngest of four. They raised the other three. And when you get to the fourth one, you think, oh, kind of, we've done it.

• 31:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  And he's kind, I mean, she's 23, 21, 18, he's 10, but he's kind of, you know. And they stopped coming home. So my mum would sleep in the back room of her shop on a bag of rice. And I remember going to the shop and seeing that it had loads of bite marks in it and going, why is it? She goes, oh, there's rats here. I sleep here because I'm being racially abused and people break in at night. So if I sleep in the shop, they're less likely to break in. My dad would then leave his job, go to her connoisseur shop, and then in the evenings she would go to her restaurant. Right? None of these businesses ever did me well. They will.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, your mom, your mom was a serial entrepreneur of sorts.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  She still is.

• 32:08Rich Roll?

  But suffered from lack of focus.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:11Rich Roll?

  Perhaps.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she didn't get an education in Africa. She left her school at seven years old or something, five or seven years old. Didn't know how to read, didn't know how to write, moved to the UK. I don't think she still knows how to read and write. So she was starting these businesses. They weren't going well. My dad was leaving his full-time job and going straight to her. And I was 10. And they forgot I was 10. So at that age, I could leave the house for two days and I could do what I want. And they genuinely, there was no repercussions and they wouldn't know I'd left. And what happens there when you've got a kid who's the only black kid in an all-white area, and with a poor family, he's desperate to fit in and to have stuff. And you've given him this whole void of independence. You've given him all of this space to conduct experiments about life. Those experiments

• 32:55Speaker 01

  lead to failure and the failure leads to feedback and the feedback is knowledge and the knowledge is power. So the thing I look at with myself is I got to conduct experiments at 10 years old about the nature of what I'm capable of. Whether it was selling the cigars my mum had bought from Nigeria all around the city and raising loads of money, or at 12 years old going to my dad, I need 50 quid because I've organised this event, 2000 under 18s are coming at this nightclub, and they need me to pay a deposit. They think I'm 18. Can I borrow 50 quid? I'll come back. Then coming back the next day with a bag of money and reaching into it and giving my dad his deposit back and going upstairs with this huge bag of money. I was conducting these experiments at a young age. They're all reinforcing this thing we call belief. Belief is evidence. It is, it is subjective

• 33:37Speaker 01

  evidence you've chosen to believe about yourself. So that as a macro tailwind in my sails from 10 to now.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Create somebody who will look at obstacles and look at how they approach things and have a huge optimism bias. I believe I can do it. And that is positively reinforcing upwards. We're all in a self-belief spiral upwards or downwards. Some people are negatively reinforcing. And what I mean by that is they're approaching the challenge at work of speaking on stage with skepticism and fear. Therefore, they show up badly. And even if they do a good job, because of that frame, they interpret they did a bad job, which erodes their self-esteem, which means next time they show up with even more pessimism, if they even raise their hand to show up. And it's this downward spiral. Since 10, I've been on the opposite. I've been on the upward spiral. Tried something. Could be that the business I started at 10 or 12 years old.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  It went well, which meant that next time I showed up with more optimism and belief, which meant it was more likely to go well. And even if it didn't, I interpreted it well. And since 10, I've been like that. And from that, I've accrued a lot of knowledge because I've been failing fast.

• 34:50Rich Roll?

  But it's also a choice. You could have crafted an entirely different negative spiral narrative about your upbringing and your parents who were always arguing and the grass that was never mowed in your front lawn and the refrigerators that were accumulating and being the only black kid. And I mean, there's a whole story there that you could have nurtured around who you are and what you're capable of. So at some level, you make this choice to invest in the upward spiral narrative around your own capacity. So how do you, is that, was that something that was conscious? Is that its own discipline? Or is that a preset default setting for you?

• 35:31Speaker 01

  I would love to say it was intentional and conscious, but I think we're all trying to find ways to survive when we're young. And you have two ways you can survive. One of the routes to survive in that context might be to fall back and fall out of the situations I was in where I'm, I just remember this constant feeling of like shame and insecurity and I need to be enough. And I was chemically relaxing my hair to make it straight, like my white friends. And I was like stealing things so I could have the same shoes that they had. That was my way of survival. It was, I will find a way, I will use that energy of shame and that motivator of shame, which Will Smith, I've heard him talk about before, and I will direct it towards fitting in at all costs. And that was my my way, and I'm probably still doing that at some level.

• 36:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was my question is is is shame still a fuel for you? It's not it's not it's not a great fuel source.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  It's not a great fuel source because you you end up aiming at the wrong things. And when you get those things, they like they're like mirages that just disappear in your hand as you grab them. And you realize that that was not the thing. There was nothing actually there. So a void you cannot fill. So shame is a hundred percent still a motivator in my life. I always try and be as aware of this as I can be so I don't end up in the wrong place. But I know it is because because sometimes I end up using the wrong metrics to understand whether I'm doing well, you know?

• 36:50Rich Roll?

  Talk a little bit more about that.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It's all like the comparative metrics, right? Like, I've done a really good job over the last two years to move away from caring about these comparative metrics. But

• 37:00Speaker 01

  why do I care about? Why do I care about being successful? Or being seen as successful? Why do I care about that? It doesn't matter. What matters is that the impact our work is having. And outside of I've got financial freedom now. So why do I care about what people might think of me being successful? I'd say that's a that's there's a percentage of that still there in me.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  That comes from the school situation where I just wanted to fit in, you know?

• 37:29Rich Roll?

  Well, impressions, social metrics have replaced the the luxury brands and the fancy car as a a marker of status. And it's a highly addictive drug. You're very good at it and you're very successful at it. But even the best of us are are are hard pressed to, you know, resist the lure of what those numbers mean. And I know this has been a struggle for you. I am interested a little bit more in the relationship between that and shame. Because I think you are somebody who learned early the false promise of some of the material world's, you know, kind of lures, so to speak.

• 38:13Rich Roll?

  And and did a pretty good job of right sizing yourself around the true value of the mansion or the, you know, the Ferrari or whatever it is. But dangling right in front of your eyes is subscriber counts. And how many people, you know, rankings for your podcast and the like, which is something that I struggle with as well.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  I sat down with a wonderful gentleman who had written a book about status. And at this point in my life, I don't have designer things per se. You know, don't have the Rolexes, don't have flashy stuff, really. The most flashy thing in my life is the, I have a driver who drives me in this Mercedes van. And inside it's really nice.

• 38:52Rich Roll?

  I've been in the van. Thank you, that's right. Yes, you were very gracious to take me to a Premier League game last time I was here, right? So, so I got, I had, I had the privilege of riding in that.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you've seen it. So that's the, so I thought to myself before I spoke to him that I'm not playing status games anymore. And what he pointed out to me is when we don't have a lot of money, the logos are really big. And then we have, when we're more sort of successful in our lives, the logos shrink. We start playing different games. So billionaires, it's all about the size of the boat. They'll never wear like head to toe Louis Vuitton or something.

• 39:27Rich Roll?

  If you go to Nantucket, everybody's driving kind of an old car. You know, or what, you know what I mean? It's, but that doesn't mean that the status game has been erased. It's just displaced to.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  A different game.

• 39:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  And San Francisco, they're all driving Teslas, but it's all about either their fund size or the startup that they're building. So that made me really aware that I'm, I'm still playing status games, but it's a different type of game. And in that, actually, if I was to walk in here head to toe Louis Vuitton, it would actually be like a counter signal to the status game I'm playing, because the people in my status game now would think of me worse. So it's like, and, and he said to me.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  You're still in the mousetrap though, for the maze.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  And he said to me, we all are, because status really, really mattered for survival throughout human history. So we're all playing status games. We, it matters to all of us that we fit in. Cancel culture and rejection, all of these things hurt so badly because they are a prehistoric signal that we're being kicked out of our tribe. And back in the day, if we were kicked out of our tribes, we would die. Our bodies change physiologically. We fall into this, this mode called self-preservation when we feel an ounce of rejection. We sleep worse, we go into higher, higher stress, more alertness. Because in a tribe, the great thing is there's so many people that you can relax. You're all looking out for each other. You have different chronotypes, you're sleeping at slightly different times, more eyes and ears. When you're on your own, you don't have that.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  So the, you, you live, it's almost a decade less long and you're all, your whole physiology changes. So when you get a metric changes, it's like the equivalent of the, the modern day, you see one of your metrics dipping down. It's in some ways a signal of rejection that you're being kicked out of the tribe at a deeper level and you get a similar response oftentimes or if someone's commenting badly on one of your photos, even if you've got a thousand positive comments, that one or two negative ones are, they trigger that sort of, you know, that innate sense of rejection and all of the feelings it makes us feel about ourselves. So managing that has for me been closing my context down completely, which is like, if you tweet me, I won't see it. If, you know, don't search your

• 41:28Speaker 01

  name, don't look at your comments as much as you can, especially on like, you know, like a cesspit, cesspit apps, we know the ones.

• 41:35Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  And keep your context super small. That's really, really helped in my life.

• 41:40Rich Roll?

  But it's also putting the lie to the whole notion that your status is correlated with any of those things, truly, right? Like, can you transcend?

• 41:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm sure some people can.

• 41:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  I don't believe I will in my life.

• 41:52Rich Roll?

  As somebody who's so good at learning something and applying it, the friction there with, with, you know, still struggling with that, I just, I think speaks to just how powerful these things are in controlling our decisions, our lives and our time management.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  I used to believe that my body was against me in so many ways. I used to believe that it, it was fighting me, trying to lose weight, trying not to eat sugar, trying to not to procrastinate, trying not to care what people think, all of these things. And if you change the frame from, why won't my body let me do these things that I want to do in the case of status? Why wouldn't it let me stop playing status games or stop having the cookie at 11, 11 o'clock at night? When you look at the body and what it's doing is it's trying to keep you alive. And if you look at it through that frame, your body is on your side. And then if you look at it through that frame, status games are a survival thing. The sugar... I know 10,000 years ago would have kept you alive if you came across it.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  It wasn't so abundant. We didn't have fridges and these things. So your body isn't against you. It's doing everything it can to keep you alive. Weight loss, I sat with weight loss experts and they all said to me, your, your body doesn't want you to lose weight because your weight actually correlated to how long you have left to live. Once upon a time, if you had more weight, you had longer to live. And if you were skinny, when we didn't have an abundance of food, you had less time to live. So it tries to defend your weight at all costs. So your body is on your side. Um, status games are innately human, as is all these sort of diet and discipline related habits that we can't break. That frame is helpful.

• 43:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's also about agency, right? Are these things controlling you?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:34Rich Roll?

  Or are you driving them? And I think to extend your example, you can also think of all of your character defects and defense mechanisms, all your, your psychological frameworks. Similarly, I don't know if you've had, have you had Richard Schwartz on?

• 43:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So he has this, he's a psychologist with a modality called internal family systems.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Oh, I've heard of it.

• 43:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, IFS, which is the idea that, that all of these, we're all a multiplicity of personalities. And when we feel that instinct to lash out or we're resentful or fearful, these are all just pieces of ourselves that were designed to protect us in the same way, you know, sort of, uh, you know, maintaining fat around the belly, um, serves us in that regard. And understanding those impulses and, and why we created them for ourselves becomes very powerful in, in, um, learning how to, um, act in contrast to them.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  And to have empathy for yourself.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think, yeah, that's the big piece too, right?

• 44:34Speaker 01

  To not think you're useless and you've got no discipline and you're lazy and why can't I stop eating that thing? Or why can't I stop playing this status, status game?

• 44:41Rich Roll?

  In terms of your own empathy for yourself, you mentioned shame. But when you reflect upon your childhood, I also hear quite a bit of gratitude. Like you are the way you are, despite some dysfunction and whatever trauma you, you, you experienced at that time. Clearly these things made you who you are.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Didn't enjoy it at the time, but I wouldn't change any of it. Now that might be some, you know. Survivorship bias, or whatever they call it, because I'm happy with where I am now. But I'm well aware that you change my circumstances even slightly. And I'm, I don't have a life that I'm happy with today. I reflect on my best friends from that time. None of them, of my best friends, have left the city. None of them are in situations where they are happy. My mother did a fantastic, brilliant job of insulating us with very, very harsh discipline that I couldn't even tell you about because you'd think it was inhumane or something. But keeping us focused, we couldn't swear. She couldn't read or write, bear in mind, but she would get encyclopedias off the shelf. My dad was working for, in London, which is like what, four hour round trip away?

• 45:46Speaker 01

  For five days a week. So this is this Nigerian woman raising four children in a house. She'd get, that can't read or write. And she ended up raising a lawyer. And like a super genius mathematician that went to Cambridge. And my brother, who's even smarter than all of us, and then me. She'd get encyclopedias and put them in front of us and say, copy from here to here to the end. Wow. And I'd copy them and then call my dad in London and say, Dad, I just learnt a new word. Important. Her discipline in those early years is profound. And watching her sleep on that bag of rice taught me that hard work is not something you complain about. Like, my mum never complained. It's something I always reflect on. Her life was like no one's life I've ever seen. She worked from the minute she woke up to the, to the minute she fell asleep. And she didn't once say, I'm tired.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  She didn't once complain. It was, and that maybe speaks to where she's come from and what she watched with her mother on those stalls in Africa. That was so deeply ingrained in me that I almost find it hard to resonate with people who have a pessimism bias because of that. I never saw it. And what's your relationship like with her now?

• 46:51Speaker 01

  It's been on a journey. It's been on a really interesting journey where when I was eighteen, nineteen, I was trying to intervene with her businesses and give her advice and she would never listen to me. Now she listens a lot more because my life is, has gone well in the business context. She never wanted me to be in business. As you can tell from that phone call where she disowned me.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  And I think she's still struggling with being in this country, far away from home and being deeply misunderstood. And as I've grown up, I've come to learn about the racism she was telling me about when I was younger that I could never believe. Now I understand it. I understand what she was going through, being a Nigerian woman in the UK in nineteen ninety two. In not just the UK, but in the countryside of the UK. We're talking four hours that way. You know, where everyone is white. I can understand what she was going through and I think she's still suffering with the repercussions of that racism she experienced. We we're not super close. I'm close to the rest of my family, but um we we talk.

• 47:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:55Rich Roll?

  What would what would have to happen to bridge that intimacy gap with her? What is the barrier there?

• 48:00Speaker 01

  You know what it is? I I think I've this might be because I'm mixed race or because she came from Nigeria and I grew up in the UK. It's how do we relate to each other? You know, this is not she doesn't know what the like, understand the incident. She doesn't understand what I do. You know, she see me on the TV doing Dragon's Den, but it's trying to find that bridge that we can meet on and connect on. Which we I've always struggled with and I've actually always struggled with it with my dad as well. Like, I don't know what we talk about. And they don't they don't know me. They've we've never I call them by their first names. I always have since I was a kid. Never called them mum and dad ever in my life. Not once ever.

• 48:43Rich Roll?

  What is that about?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I I hear.

• 48:46Rich Roll?

  Your siblings do the same?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, we all do the same. We call them by their first names and we always have.

• 48:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's wild.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  We my mum apparently said when we were younger, she wanted us to be more like her friends than her children. So she and I think it maybe she didn't want to feel old, so we always called her by her first name.

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  But do you feel like you need your mom to understand what you do?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:10Rich Roll?

  So if you can liberate yourself, if you're liberated from that, can't you just meet her with compassion and a lack of expectations?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  When we, when we have our phone calls, the phone calls are my mom talking about her world for 30 minutes and what's been going on in her day. And then that's the end of the call. And it's not because I don't have a desire to share. It's there's no room in that conversation for me to say anything.

• 49:35Rich Roll?

  I understand.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Do you see what I'm saying?

• 49:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  So I mean, I'm not asked. I mean, she might ask about my, my girlfriend now, but outside of that, there's nothing about me in that call. It's about, she wants to tell me stuff.

• 49:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  And then the phone call ends and that's our relationship.

• 49:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:52Rich Roll?

  I can relate.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Okay, there you go.

• 49:55Rich Roll?

  That's a different podcast, but yeah, I understand. One of the things I think is really instructive and cool and interesting about you is that you're, you're very consciously modeling a new, a new idea of what it means to be a leader and a CEO. Throughout the eighties and the nineties, me being, you know, two decades older than you, the people who were influencing what that looked like were much more traditional. It was the Gordon Gekkos and greed is good and win at all costs and never show weakness, never show vulnerability. And I think what you're showing up and representing is something entirely different. And despite whatever, you know, fuel sources you're relying upon, healthy or otherwise,

• 50:40Rich Roll?

  like shame, you're sharing in real time that journey for the benefit of others and you're leading with openness and optimism and, and a level of vulnerability that a couple decades ago or not too long ago would, would have been frowned upon or, or looked upon as a weakness in terms of how one would lead teams. And so I think there's something really interesting and instructive about those choices and what it means in terms of how other people show up to lead teams, to be leaders, to be CEOs, to be executives, and just to be more fully actualized human beings.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  You know, vulnerability was a revelation in my life and it was an experiment that I ran. And I say this because as a man, as a CEO, sometimes it felt difficult to be vulnerable, right? Especially in my early career, because I still, I'm in the wake of theory that you've described. And even I, growing up, saw CEOs on TV as being these like white men in suits that are like, I never had them stop to talk about what they were struggling with on TVs in a movie. And about, I'd say, five years ago, I sat with my team

• 51:55Speaker 01

  and said, I want to start a podcast and I want to be honest about what's going on in my diary. And in there, it would include everything from masturbation, challenges with my mother, mental health, anxiety, regretting decisions I made that day. And I want to just, I want to put it out there and see what happens. And I say it was an experiment because it's terrifying to do that. That experiment, putting that first episode out there, was the most enlightening thing I've ever experienced. I thought vulnerability was a repellent. It turns out it's the world's greatest magnet. It brings everybody to you. If you think about what's in greatest supply in the world, it's the antithesis of vulnerability. It's filtering your life and showing, you know, the best parts of your life and that

• 52:38Speaker 01

  you're, you're successful and imperfect and all of those things. That's the thing that's in greatest supply. The thing that's fundamentally in the least, is in highest demand, though, is the thing that we can relate to in the 99% of our lives, which is the struggle, the insecurity, the doubt, the eating the pot noodle on your bed, on your belly button at 1am in the morning, thinking about someone that's broken your heart. That's the thing in greatest demand, but in least supply. And so it turns out, also, I came to learn a couple of years later that we, when someone shares their struggle, it increases oxytocin levels in us and we feel more connected to them. So I tried sharing mine and it was the most. Profound reaction I'd had from my best friends in my life, only my best friends listened to it

• 53:21Speaker 01

  because it was episode number one, but what they said to me changed my life. So I wanted to continue that that experiment of vulnerability in more areas of my life, including with my my partner, with my team members and with the general public. And it is win win. It makes me feel amazing because I get things that are trapped inside of me, running my unconscious mind like a puppet master in the back room, out in the open. And also, other people can or will relate to it and resonate with it more than anything I could say. If I sat here now and said, oh, yeah, I've got a Range Rover Sport and a Ferrari and I've got a million pounds, no one's gonna get take anything from that or feel connected to that. But me talking about my mother and the human sides of the 99% of my life, great for me.

• 54:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Great for them.

• 54:06Rich Roll?

  It's interesting that that it began as an experiment and and and you were kind of calculating it in terms of external response. And my mind was going to what was the internal barometer of that because in doing that, in in summoning the courage to be vulnerable, especially in a public format, is is a frightening prospect.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:28Rich Roll?

  But it's also incredibly cathartic and empowering.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:33Rich Roll?

  And liberating, right?

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:35Rich Roll?

  Because you're carrying around that baggage. And there is generally, you know, a piece of shame attached to these things because we feel weak or insecure around those vulnerabilities. But in sharing them and exposing them to the light, we realize, one, they didn't kill us, two, people aren't rejecting us as a result of sharing them, and three, by by putting it out there, it no longer holds power over you in the way that it did when you keep it in the shadows.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Exactly that. Simon Sinek's been on my podcast three times and he said the third episode where he opened up with I'm feeling lonely, he told me his entire, so he said, all the other podcasts I've ever done, you know, people might come up to me and say that was a good episode. That one. He said was it changed his life. His whole friendship circle, right onto him. Messages, phone calling him that day. People in the streets and cafes coming up to him, in his words, crying their eyes out. Why? Because Simon went from being this great thinker and, you know, great deliverer of ideas to being a human being that we can relate to at a deep level. Running the experiment of vulnerability in more areas of your life will be the greatest magnet towards connection anyone could ever could ever run.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Sharing your struggle, honestly, it almost bucks the trend because we've been hardwired to believe that people will be drawn to us if we are perfect. If we portray perfection.

• 56:02Rich Roll?

  That's a great lie.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  It's the opposite completely. Especially, I actually think this has been accelerated by the advent of social media. The first chapter in social media, which I was a big part of, I was running a social media business at that time, was all about perfection. Then there was this sort of counter movement away from perfection and towards authenticity. And that's where we live now, which is, I think we're in the age of authenticity where authenticity is an unbelievable currency. For you, it's great for you, this is the important thing, it's great for you as well.

• 56:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but there's a caveat to that, which is what we now see quite a bit of is performative authenticity, which is, which is, you know, sort of a false.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Which is the counter movement.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  Right, which, which makes the whole word, you know, authenticity devoid of meaning. It becomes a wallpaper word to coin a phrase from, from your book. And then it becomes incumbent upon the person on the other end of the phone who's scrolling to discern the difference between somebody who's truly being honest and showing up and expressing from the heart versus the person who's doing it for, you know, the, the likes and the comments, right?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  And I think we're good at telling the difference. I give people more credit for that.

• 57:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think young people are extremely good at their, the bullshit.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  Detectors on young people are very finely honed out of survival, out of, I mean, it's a, it's a skill that's required as somebody who grows up with technology to understand the difference.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and as you say, they've, they've spent, Gen Z's have spent 20, you know, in many cases, they've been in the social media era for 20 years now. So every day, for nine hours a day, according to some of the studies, they are looking at people's performances and almost as if they're, they're training the, through machine learning in their brains, what authentic looks like and what it doesn't look like, and when someone's lying to you, when they're not, when they're being honest and when they're being dishonest. The world's greatest A B test on a generation of humans and how they behave and what their, what their, what their intentions are, which maybe we, you know, my dad didn't have growing up. Maybe in a day, he didn't encounter a thousand people. But the Gen Z's in my office are scrolling through thousands and thousands of performances a day. So their barometer has been finely tuned.

• 58:14Rich Roll?

  Right. And what is that doing to young brains?

• 58:16Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to think about that.

• 58:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. As somebody who's in that ecosystem and in that business.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Um, I don't think it's doing a good thing. I don't think it's doing good things for sure. And I was actually, as I was getting my haircut, the barber had brought his two year old son. And to keep the two year old son occupied while I'm getting my haircut, he obviously places the phone there. And the phone is hypnotized, this two year old. The two year old is literally, and I said to him, look, he's hypnotized. And because he's just doing the same motion back and forth, looking at the screen. If you take that phone away, this kid starts running around and grabbing stuff and playing with it. The minute you put that phone on, frozen. I was thinking, there's something in that two year old's brain that has, is being hijacked. Some kind of dopamine, you know? It's the same with that generation. And there's a cost. There's always a cost.

• 59:04Rich Roll?

  So you conduct this experiment in vulnerability in a public sphere by launching the Diary of a CEO podcast. I went back and listened to a variety of your very early episodes. Just super interesting. Obviously, the show has evolved quite a bit since those early days. But I really like those monologue episodes. I find it very difficult myself to sit in front of a microphone and just talk. It's much easier for me to, you know, kind of do this sort of thing. And it's easier for me to hide a little bit, right? Like, I try to inject just enough of myself, but it's not about me. But when it's just you talking into the microphone.

• 59:45Rich Roll?

  Sharing from the heart, that's a, you know, that that requires something altogether different. I'm curious around the evolution of the show. Obviously, it's a, you know, global smash success and congratulations. I think, you know, it's it's well earned and you know that I have huge respect for what you do and the way that you do it. But I'm curious around why you don't do more of those vulnerable check ins.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Of all the requests we get, the most frequent one is people wanting me to do that. Those first sort of 10, 15 episodes of all the requests I get, I've put my stories multiple times over the last years, I'm gonna do it again, I'm gonna do like my Steve's diary, sharing maybe seven points from my diary every week, where I'm just being completely honest and open about what I'm thinking, what I've been struggling with. It was, it actually, the process of it unlocked so many answers in my life, more than anything I've ever done. It's why I felt, realized why I couldn't be in a relationship, why I was struggling to be in a relationship, from doing that process of write in my diary, reflect upon it, broadcast it, teach it to the world.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  We broke up again.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you've really listened.

• 1:00:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Honestly, it was, it was two things. The first is time. Takes much less time for me to interview somebody else.

• 1:01:06Rich Roll?

  That's kind of a bullshit excuse.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Honestly, like, for me, like, to interview someone else takes me, I'd say, say, three, two, three hours preparation time, and then the conversation will last three hours, it's about six hours in total. For me to sit down and, and write through my notes in my diary takes, I'd say nine hours solid. And I spent, I heard Huberman talking about his solo episodes, and he says it takes days, days and days and days.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. But that's a, that's a very different thing.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. That, that's why I think it is. And then interviewing.

• 1:01:43Rich Roll?

  See, I think there's something else. I think there's a resistance.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Because now the podcast is a juggernaut, and what you're doing is working so well. So it's very easy to not do the thing that you were doing at the beginning.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Do you think I should?

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  You think I should?

• 1:02:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Not every episode, but once a month, maybe. Don't forget what inspired you to do it to begin with.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  So just being completely honest, I just don't know where I'd fit it. My team always want me to do it. My team are like, my team actually put a solo episode in yesterday and I deleted it from my calendar because I was, that day I was like, I've got too many meetings on and this is my only day where I can sit down and work. So I deleted it. It's easy to remove those ones.

• 1:02:28Rich Roll?

  Apply your discipline equation.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  I don't know where I go. I need to say a lot of things.

• 1:02:32Rich Roll?

  And I think it fits squarely in the, in the value, in one of your value buckets.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. You are right. I, I honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I can't add anything to my life right now. I can't add nine hours to my life right now. I, I don't know where I'd add it. Getting, getting me to write the last, I told you yesterday, I flew back to London and wrote the last law in London. My manager who sat out there, and he'll know because he's lucky, he's smirking and putting us down. My manager had to chase me for three months to get me to write that last law. It's about four pages. So to think I'd be able to sit down maybe once a week and write what, solo episodes are about seven or eight pages. I don't know how I would do that. My vlog that I've started is my way of showing you into my world a little bit.

• 1:03:17Rich Roll?

  Sure, but that's a, that's day in the life.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Rich Roll?

  So I'm just challenging you.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Please.

• 1:03:22Rich Roll?

  Gently here. The show is called Diary.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Rich Roll?

  Of a CEO. And it has become more and more other people's diary.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Rich Roll?

  And not your own.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Rich Roll?

  So just something to think about.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do it.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  Just put it on the calendar.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do it.

• 1:03:38Rich Roll?

  A month from now.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna do it audio only.

• 1:03:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  So that it's easier for me to.

• 1:03:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Read from my notes and I don't have to keep doing cuts. And I'm gonna run it as Steve's diary, once a week or once a fortnight on audio only.

• 1:03:51Rich Roll?

  There you go. I'm gonna hold you to that.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Please, please.

• 1:03:55Rich Roll?

  The other thing that, that I noticed yesterday when, when I bumped into you on the street, that, that, that made me think that it made you a little uncomfortable was when we were taught, you were sharing about how you went away to finish the book.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Rich Roll?

  And I was sharing that I do a month sabbatical every year.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Rich Roll?

  And you almost recoiled at the idea. So when we talk about discipline and hard work and entrepreneurship and going the extra mile and staying late with your team and, and all the kind of things that you think about when you're trying to achieve a goal. The idea of stopping altogether, to me feels like a healthy pursuit of that discipline. Because I think it's easy for you to go, go, go. But maybe it might require a little bit of discipline to stop and understand that that's part of the process also.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  That would be the hardest discipline for me to master.

• 1:04:57Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  And?

• 1:04:59Rich Roll?

  It's easy to be disciplined about things other people think are hard, but are second nature to you. Real discipline is plying it against the things that you're most resistant to.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  So if we go back to the equation and look at the the me stopping for a month, not doing any work for a month.

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  Here's all the excuses and all the reasons why it's impossible.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  The why is just not there for me. So you know, you talk, we often, you probably talk about it on your show, I talk about it a lot on mine, that sometimes people need to hit a rock bottom moment or a certain level of pain before the why increases, before they break the the cycle that they're in. For me, the why is not strong. So when you say that, my brain goes, yeah, but why? I don't need to stop. If at some point in my life, whether it's through having kids or whether there's some kind of personal crisis in my life, the why increases, I think I might be disciplined with that. But where I sit today, I go, I'm I'm a little bit overextended. But there's no part of me that would see taking a month off as helpful or necessary. So

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  I would, you see what I'm saying? I, you know that at Christmas time, I take about three weeks and I go to Bali. I've done that Costa Rica and Bali every year for the last three years. There, I I sit alone and I write. That's what I would do in my free time. I wouldn't enjoy. Taking a month off and doing nothing. My stability is chaos.

• 1:06:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  My chaos is stability.

• 1:06:27Rich Roll?

  Now it is.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  It is always been.

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  Now it is. But the discomfort that comes up for you around the idea of doing nothing, I think, is worthy of investigation.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:06:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And maybe you do need to burn out.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:06:42Rich Roll?

  Or something has to happen for you to recognize that. I just think that, under universal law, you have stress and rest, right? You go to the gym, you stress your body, you rest, you recover, you go to sleep every night. Everything is a cycle, whether it's a micro cycle or a macro cycle. So you know that you, I know that you prioritize sleep. You don't set an alarm. You make sure that you get as much sleep as you need so that you can be the high performer that you are. That's in the micro. But in the macro, look at it from a decade perspective or an annual perspective. You need to build in those rest intervals just the same.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  This is why my girlfriend is such a great counterbalance in my life. Because she demands of me my time when we go away. So we went away to Portugal.

• 1:07:27Rich Roll?

  How dare she do that?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I've framed that really badly, but everything in my life is, I do, I do because I want to do. And when she says, I want to go to Portugal for a week and spend some time with my family, I want to, I want to go as well. It's not, and I say this to her, she knows this about me, if she wasn't there, I wouldn't be doing this. Like, if she wasn't in my life, default Steve, when she goes away herself for two weeks, is intense. Really, really intense. And I like it.

• 1:07:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. This is what I'm saying. Yeah, of course. I understand this.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  But I, but I also reflect and go, it's not, it's not sustainable. And there's this other thing that's about to emerge in my life, which is children at some point in the next three years. How will I fit children into that equation when they will also demand of me my attention and my time? Something's got to give. And as I always, I've found in some of my friends, when they're not changing behaviors and they're not breaking habits, maybe they just need a little bit more pain. And it's a horrible thing to say, but you know that

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  certain people just need a little bit more pain before they change course and say enough is enough. Maybe I need a little bit more pain in the opposite direction to flip my incentive structure. But I have to also caveat this by saying I'm happy, whatever that means. As in, I wake up with a deep sense of gratitude for the life that I get to live. And I rarely have sad days. I mean, can I think of having a sad day? I've had like really difficult periods, but I don't have a lot of sad days. So yeah, that's also why there's not been enough force in the opposite direction getting me to change the way I am.

• 1:09:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm glad to hear that you're happy and I think that's genuine. I believe you, but I think there's a maybe just beneath the surface, some control issues, some fear around what it would feel like, what it would look like if you had to kind of release the reins a little bit and let some other people in. That's very threatening to your identity and the direction that you're driving your ship right now.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  I think you're sorry. I think you've nailed it. Maybe I'm not so conscious of that fear, but I think there's definitely a fear there because why wouldn't I go and hang out in beautiful places around the world and beaches and just relax? And just get on the moped and just drive down, go to the gym and just chill out and just do something else and not be obsessed. Why wouldn't I do that? Where does this obsession come from? And it is, it's an obsession, my team know. It's a seven day a week shower, walking down the street everywhere I go, obsession.

• 1:09:59Rich Roll?

  Why?

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  I would have to relate it to the things I've said in my childhood. And I think what that created in me is also this, this, when you believe you're really capable of a lot of things, when you really believe in yourself, you're almost haunted by that potential. And you always feel like there is no end to where you can go. And when you're stood in the face of a huge perception of potential, like you just think that there's, there's, there's no finish line here. And I think maybe there's a part of me that thinks myself, maybe at a deep level, that thinks my self-esteem is related, is correlated to how far down that never ending track I am.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  And what is the role that your ego is playing in all of that? Because there is a, there's a kernel of narcissism at the center of that, thinking that you're the, you're the puppeteer in charge of all this latent potential awaiting manifestation. And it's just, it's up to you and your sheer force of will to make it happen. And there's something beautiful about it, too. I don't want to cast it in a pejorative way.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  What is, when you say ego, how do you define that? Because the word is used so broadly.

• 1:11:14Rich Roll?

  Sure. The idea that you and you alone are responsible for whether or not these great gifts that you're going to bestow upon the world are going to happen or not.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Rich Roll?

  And as such, going to the gym and chilling out and riding a moped around Bali is a frivolous pursuit that is reserved for mortals.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  So I do believe that, I definitely have a bias towards believing, no, I do, I definitely have a bias towards believing that my outcomes in life are like heavily correlated to what I do. And that can be a gift and a curse, you know, the exact way you've just described it.

• 1:11:52Rich Roll?

  And what is the relationship between self-esteem or just, you know, a feeling of goodwill within yourself and the external results of your labor?

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  This is something that I've had to hazard a guess at because it's not abundantly clear to me. But when I think about, when I think, when I piece together certain pieces of the jigsaw I can see, I assume that the missing pieces that I can't see are telling me that there's a correlation between what I achieve and my perception of myself at a deep level, you know? I can't fully see that picture, but there must be.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  This is something that I suffer from.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Rich Roll?

  So I can relate to this self-inquiry. But I know that you've shared your kind of ongoing conversation with yourself around this, that perhaps was maybe initially prompted when you sat with Radhanath Swamy.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:58Rich Roll?

  And he said something to you.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Rich Roll?

  Around the idea of you being enough or.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:04Rich Roll?

  You are loved for who you are. And your kind of recoiling response to that.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  That conversation actually came from a lady that came to my office and said to my team many years ago, just imagine you are already enough. Imagine that you have everything you need and you've all these goals that you have in your life, they don't actually matter. You already have everything you need. And I remember thinking, that's a load of nonsense. God, that's going to mean that what's the point getting out of bed in the morning? What's the point of motivation if you've if you're already enough? I remember walking back to my desk, the idea sat in my brain for two years and everything I figured out about the nature of my life proved it to be true. And also, when I realized that at 25, when I got that range of a million pound six pack girlfriend and the anticlimactic feeling of you aiming at the wrong thing and none of these goals ever mattered, made

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  me realize that unless you believe what that woman said to me that day, unless you believe that you are currently already enough, what ends up happening is you fall into the trap of thinking that one Steve Bartlett can be worth more than one Steve Bartlett if I accomplish something. The currency of Steve Bartlett is one Steve Bartlett irrespective of accomplishment is always going to be worth the same inside here. So if I accept this idea that I'm already enough and that none of this stuff is going to move me, then I can start aiming at things that I didn't believe would sway my internal worth, which means aiming at internal ambitions, intrinsic things, which is why the podcast really took off and why I started it because

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  it was something I would do regardless of regardless of remuneration. So one of the things in my life that I loved. Obviously, the motivation structures change when it becomes a bit more widely listened to.

• 1:14:45Rich Roll?

  Sure, sure. But what you're getting at really is this idea, this distinction between ambition and insecurity.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Fake ambition and real ambition.

• 1:14:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how how how you mask insecurity as ambition and it's only in success that you realize the nature of that.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought her words would erode my ambition. In fact, it erodes your fake ambitions. What it illuminates is your real ambitions. And I have kids come up to me after I speak on stage and they'll say, I want to be a public speaker, like nineteen year old kids. And I go, why do you want to be a public speaker? And they go, you know, like, I want to, I want to, I want to speak on stage. What they're actually doing, what they actually want is they want the admiration they just saw you get.

• 1:15:27Rich Roll?

  Right. It's not that they have an idea they feel compelled to share. It's about, it's about standing on a stage and having people look at them and clap.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Which they didn't get at seven years old. So that's a fake ambition. They don't actually want to be a public speaker. And in that instance, we've confused aspiration with admiration. We have admiration for what we just saw in that person. So we think it's an aspiration of our own, but they're two very different things. And so, yeah, that changed my life. But the, I can't even pronounce his name, Radha.

• 1:15:56Rich Roll?

  Radha, Radha Swami.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  What he said to me was in New York, Jay Shetty took me to his conference when I was twenty something, early twenties. And I was contending with this internal issue where I knew I was really capable of doing things. I knew I was capable of having an idea and making it happen. So when I got to ask him a question, I said, am I wrong for spending my life building businesses and enriching myself versus going to Africa? And saving just one life in the village in Africa where I was born? And he said, you can't pour out for others that which you don't have yourself.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Which, which was really eye opening for me. And so I spent the next ten years kind of focusing a lot on building up my skill set. So that now hopefully I have more that I can pour out for other people. Because we all contend with that feeling, don't we?

• 1:16:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. In AA, they say something similar, which is you, you cannot transmit something you haven't got.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:48Rich Roll?

  Which speaks to the authenticity, fake authenticity thing, right? If you're holding yourself out in a certain way in the world and doing it in service of others, if that's not real, it's not going to connect or resonate.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Amen, yeah.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  Versus earned experience over time, right?

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 1:17:06Rich Roll?

  But when you talk about these, these ideas that are a little bit more ephemeral, ethereal, it reminds me of, of a conversation I had recently with Arthur Brooks, a social scientist, professor at Harvard Business School and Harvard Kennedy School.

• 1:17:27Rich Roll?

  He's written a couple of books. He has a new book coming out that he co-wrote with Oprah. And he's sort of an expert on happiness. He writes for The Atlantic magazine. And he's distilled the pursuit of happiness down to these four pillars, which are family, friendship, work, preferably work that is in service of others or about something larger than yourself. And the final one being faith. Now, he's a hardcore Catholic, but he feels very strongly, and the social science supports this idea, that if you want true happiness, and happiness not being a state, but rather the result of how you invest your attention,

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  time and energy, that something transcendent has to be an aspect of that pursuit, something that is about more than yourself, something that is about through your work, serving others, of course, and yet, a little more ethereal than that. And I think this is where the rubber just might hit the road with you, Stephen, right? As you tense up.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was trying to find that in my own life. The closest thing I can get to that is just the conversations you have with people about how what you do has helped them in some way. That feels like an almost spiritual, it's that fourth part of the Ikigai.

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right. And I think that's why, of all the successes that you've had and all the things that you've done, why the podcast, I think, is probably the most meaningful.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:19:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  You know, the Ikigai thing?

• 1:19:14Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  That fourth piece of doing something that helps the world or other people. It's the only thing I've ever done in my life where I've managed to find that fourth piece, done things that I'm good at, that will make you money. But finding that fourth piece of like, this is why, of all the things I do in my life, it's the most enjoyable and also, like, hate to say it, but... It's the least profitable financially, but it's the thing I give most of my time to.

• 1:19:40Rich Roll?

  When you find that pursuit that is also an offering, but is a passion, like it's something you love, you would do ordinarily without compensation, because it brings so much meaning into your own life. And then in turn, to have that be of tremendous value to other people is the greatest gift. And it's why I will always do this. Like, I just love it. I would do it. I would do it for free. I did do it for free for many years. I'm very grateful that it supports my family now. But I understand that impulse, and that's why I'm not surprised, despite all of the companies and all the other things that you do, that this is the thing that means the most to you. But I still think that that falls under what Arthur Brooks

• 1:20:24Rich Roll?

  would call the work bucket, and not the faith or transcendent bucket.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  I grew up believing in a God. I grew up believing in a higher power. And for whatever reason, at 18 years old, I was the last one to renounce my faith in my family, of my siblings. For whatever reason, I discovered the work of Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris, and Hitchens, and I start to question, as I do with a lot of things, I started to, I had these new ideas in my head. So I spent two years as this absolutely obsessed atheist agnostic, reading every book, watching every documentary in all of my free time. And from there, my faith fell away. But I find faith in, and awe and beauty in the stars and the universe. And all of, I spent so long reading and studying about the universe and watching the Cosmos

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  documentaries. And that has become my new awe, which is this incredible, the awe of the world we live in. And it almost came to a point in my life where I didn't feel like I needed to believe in a God or a deity or anything like that, because I can believe in, there's so much awe that my brain can't understand. When I think about a whale, I was talking to my girlfriend about it last night as we were falling asleep, these things are just awe inspiring enough for me to, you know, and there's so many unanswered questions. So I have to live in, would you call it faith? Or would you, would you call it? Just uncertainty around the nature of why I'm here and what I'm doing and what the real game is of life.

• 1:21:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think uncertainty and being able to inhabit a place of awe and wonder, I think, is a gateway drug towards something greater. But I think in that process, a big piece of it is developing a capacity for humility that can act as a counterweight against the wiles of the ego that are luring you in directions quite attractive, but ultimately not in your long-term best interest.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  The recurring trend I've noticed in the guests that I've had on that have been through AA, so recently Russell Brand, Rain Wilson.

• 1:22:34Rich Roll?

  Both friends.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Both friends, both written books about spirituality, both told me, both said what you've just said to me about the faith being such an instrumental part of their lives, to the point now, I think Russell alluded to the fact that without faith, he would not be able to be stable in his day to day. I think he said something to me, like, I spend the first two hours of the day reconnecting to my faith, just so I can be normal. And I noticed that my guests who have been through AA are the ones that really have spoken to me so passionately about the importance of faith. Am I seeing something here? Is there a correlation with that?

• 1:23:15Rich Roll?

  Well, AA is a spiritual program.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:18Rich Roll?

  So it is one of the principles and one of the steps is developing an understanding and appreciation of a God of your own understanding, a higher power. And the steps are really rooted in ancient spiritual traditions that are tried and true around doing a personal inventory and making amends, you know, from almost a karmic perspective. Meditation is one of the steps, being of service, giving back, humility, all of these things infuse that 12-step program. But fundamentally, it is about surrendering your life and your will and your power over

• 1:24:02Rich Roll?

  to something greater than yourself.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  And what is that?

• 1:24:05Rich Roll?

  And that idea of surrender, I think, is very counterintuitive, and particularly with people who are of the kind of alpha personality types.

• 1:24:16Rich Roll?

  Because it provokes a sense of giving up in them, which I have only learned over the years is an illusion. The idea being that when you're in your own self-will and you're running your life according to those parameters, where it's all about you and what you want and what you need and it's up to you to get it, that that can be an effective fuel source that can even reap positive rewards in your life. But it will ultimately plateau and hold you back from your greatest capacity, which is what happens when you allow yourself to recede a little bit more into the background, relinquish those reins and understand

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  that there are forces greater than yourself at work and at play, that when you can be in that space will help guide you in the direction you're meant to go. And I think the entry point for you is making the connection between that and this very strong sense of self and intuition that you have that has always been your guiding force in your life.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  What is that force or faith for you?

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  It's undefined. You know, it doesn't fall into any specific tradition other than kind of a broad knowing that there are forces at play that are beyond our capacity to intellectually understand. And it's my job to not be engaged in trying to understand it with my mind and instead to let go of that and just engage with the heart, which means paying attention to that inner voice. What is it telling me? Why do I have this? Where does that come from? And really respecting that, which I think you already do.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Okay, but you don't have to do a practice, like a daily practice, to connect with that?

• 1:26:14Rich Roll?

  Well, that's of your own design, but I think a practice around stillness and quietude, so that you can hear what's being said inside of you, I think is important. And again, I think this is something that you're already doing. But I think that's why meditation and mindfulness practices can be so powerful, because they connect you with that heart voice that's so easy to cloud in the gestalt of our busy, stressful lives.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  You're completely right, because the person-

• 1:26:47Rich Roll?

  And I know your girlfriend, what's your girlfriend's name again?

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Melanie.

• 1:26:49Rich Roll?

  Melanie, yeah. I mean, I'm sure she would, she's probably banging this drum in your ear all day long.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  You would, no.

• 1:26:57Rich Roll?

  No?

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  She's living it.

• 1:26:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  But she's, I mean, she wakes up and meditates for an hour every single morning and-

• 1:27:03Rich Roll?

  But she's liberated from the need for you to see it the way that she does.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and vice versa.

• 1:27:09Rich Roll?

  Which is, which is evidence of an advanced consciousness.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  But it goes both ways as well. Like, it's really interesting to have a girlfriend who's so deeply spiritual. That's her career, that's her life. She does retreats, Breathwork Studio, where we met yesterday. But the reason why we work is because we have our lives and we're secure in it, and we're not trying to convert the other individual to our way of thinking. We're looking over and stealing things from each other's lives. We said this in the car two days ago. She was like, I love, I used to think I wanted to be with someone who was also really, really spiritual, but I've got that box ticked. So being with you allows me to learn something, and vice versa, in terms of I've learnt so much from her, from just observing her. It's really interesting, though, because when I do go to Bali at the end of the year, the conversation in my head and who I am is much closer to who I want to be,

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  and it's because of this stillness. It's because I've had space away from the machine.

• 1:28:04Rich Roll?

  So can you bring some piece of that into your daily life and a routine?

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  I have sat with so many amazing people, super successful, people that I love and admire so much, who tell me about the importance of meditation, and I have still not made it a habit in my life, a discipline in my life.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  And again, it's because there's something in my brain, and this is me just being completely honest, I completely believe in meditation and stillness and taking 30 minutes a day, even 20 minutes a day, I completely believe in how much that would impact my life.

• 1:28:42Rich Roll?

  Do you, though?

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  But I didn't believe in more than other things.

• 1:28:45Rich Roll?

  Because you are so good at taking those things you know will benefit you and incorporating them into your life.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  The resistance there, I think, is interesting, because I think on some level you do believe, but there's also a big part of you that doesn't.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  The part of the discipline equation, now that I think about that, it's missing, is prioritization comes into play, because your time is a zero-sum game.

• 1:29:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  So it depends if I believe, in deep within me, if I believe something else is going to reap a greater return on investment. So you can believe these things, I believe meditation's important, just because I've heard it so much, I've experienced it in my own life a little bit, but I think somewhere in me, I believe all these other things are more important. I believed getting up at 9:00 AM and having that call with the fund manager who's going to invest in our fund was more important than pausing for 30 minutes. And until the prioritization changes, it won't happen. Is that accurate? Does that make sense?

• 1:29:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Or am I BSing myself?

• 1:29:41Rich Roll?

  I don't know, only you know.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, because there's some things I believe and I want to do, but they're not winning out over the other things.

• 1:29:48Rich Roll?

  Sure. I think part of it is this idea that, you know, our morning routines are now extended, you know, hours and hours and hours. Like, what are you going to actually do to begin your day? Are you going to get up? You're not going to set the alarm, so you're going to wake up later, so you get your rest, and then you're going to do your meditation, and then you're going to do your cold plunge and your sauna and your workout and your morning pages and your journaling. It's 1 o'clock in the afternoon.

• 1:30:20Rich Roll?

  So I understand that, there's something very human about that, but I think it's curious. I mean, you recently had Sam Harris on the podcast, you've had Russell, you've had all these people. They're, you know, I mean, Sam, atheist, right? So he's non-threatening to you from that kind of organized religion perspective or spirituality perspective, and yet I think he would aggressively advise you that that 30-minute meditation is far more important than these other things that your brain is telling you should come first.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  I look at it through the context of that discipline equation and I say, okay, friction's probably quite high because it's difficult for me to sit down and do nothing. That's quite a difficult psychological challenge for me. The enjoyment of it is probably not high enough and the why is probably not clear enough. So if something happens in my life, if I have some kind of experience, maybe I go on a retreat and someone sits with me for seven days and they really show me, I need to feel it and see it for myself, how transformative this is. And they find some way to make it more enjoyable for me and reduce the friction, it will stick. Sleep is a really interesting example of this, how it's stuck in my life. Last night, before I went to bed, I kissed my girlfriend on the lips. I said, last night, babe, my sleep efficiency was really, really low, so I'm gonna sleep in the spare room tonight, which is my room.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  And I slept in the room. I wake up first thing in the morning, look at my weep, check exactly how much sleep I've had. Because I ran the experiment of not sleeping and sleeping and saw the variance using data to understand the correlation in my mood performance and how I feel is so great when I haven't had restorative sleep. It's stuck. And now it's like a non-negotiable in my life. And meditation will have to do the same thing. It will have to impress upon me so greatly the advantages of it that that why part will become discipline. It's not there yet with me.

• 1:32:12Rich Roll?

  And does that have to be experiential?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:32:16Rich Roll?

  Or could you take the advice of people who are practitioners of this, who could tell you, trusted people, people like Sam Harris, Tim Ferriss, people like that, that you probably on some level appreciate their wisdom and believe that they're credible in what they're telling you.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  So they've all told me.

• 1:32:36Rich Roll?

  See, this is the thing.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  It goes to beliefs, right? This is what I talk about with beliefs.

• 1:32:41Rich Roll?

  It's interesting too, you're like, I can see the gears in your brain working. You have this mental model and you're trying to solve it intellectually.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  I believe that our beliefs are most significantly influenced by our first-party experiences. And that's why I talk about running these experiments and building self-belief. If you try and have a conversation with a flat-earther, you can tell them all that, you can show them pictures.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  You have a whole thing in the book about this.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. The only way you would ever convert a flat-earther is taking them up there. That's the only way, taking up there and looking at the planet. That's the only way.

• 1:33:14Rich Roll?

  There probably would be another reason they would come up with.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, when they got up there, they would say, oh, this is an illusion. But that's the closest you could do. And it's the same with climate change. Until people see the river in their own, their own village overflowing every single week, they're not going to see a gradual change happening in the atmosphere. They won't believe it. So the same, I think, applies for all of us when we're trying to change our beliefs. You have to go and get first party evidence that you subjectively accept is true. And I can expose you to first party evidence, but you might not subjectively accept it's true. So you have to then accept that it's true. Breathwork was a good example for me. My girlfriend did, took me to a breathwork class. Breathwork, what, breathing? And I had a really transformative experience where I'm crying after, I believe in breathwork now.

• 1:34:02Rich Roll?

  Holotropic breathing?

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of like psychedelic, yeah.

• 1:34:06Rich Roll?

  It's incredibly powerful. You can get a group of people to open up and weep and share experiences almost instantaneously, people that don't even know each other. So my wife takes groups of people through this exercise on our retreats and it bonds the group and it's amazing what people share in the aftermath of these experiences. It's like a psychedelic experience without taking psychedelics.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Do you think we've all got a different sort of barometer of skepticism and a requirement for logic and proof and evidence and science when we approach our lives? Because you was talking about the cogs going on in my brain. I'm definitely someone that needs to see it.

• 1:34:45Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  And understand the science for me to accept it.

• 1:34:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Get over yourself.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  Is that, is that really what it is?

• 1:34:53Rich Roll?

  I think, I think on some level, I understand it because I'm the same way. And my relationship feels, to my wife feels similar to your relationship with your girlfriend, even though I haven't met her, just based on what you've shared with me. And I think I am best guided when I'm able to kind of step out, step outside of the confines, understand that, that our brains are attempting to identify patterns that help us make sense of the world. And we do that so that we feel safe. This understanding of who we are, this crafted identity that I know I'm very invested in,

• 1:35:35Rich Roll?

  based upon these mental models that I have about how the world works, about who I am and how I fit into it. And I think some of my greatest growth has been.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  When I can disabuse myself of those parameters or understand their limitations and just allow myself to step outside of it and entertain something different. And I think what's interesting about this, given your resistance, but also your curiosity, is this disposition that you have around questioning the question. Like, this is almost a gift of yours to always try to step outside whatever paradigm you're in so that you can have a broader view of what is happening and identify a different or new way. So maybe for you, questioning the question should be applied

• 1:36:30Rich Roll?

  to your own pattern-making capacity in your intellectual mind.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  Part of me, the way I rationalize it to myself, and this might not be true, is if I accept things that I can't understand or see the data on or experience, then I'm susceptible to accepting anything. And that's not a, that doesn't feel like a productive framework for decision-making as I proceed in my life. And I have to be honest, this might have been influenced by my early context. Because you've got a mother who will believe everything. And then seeing that fail her, everything, things with no evidence. You know, I would wake up and she would have my 3:00 AM in the morning. She's got my maths books from school and she's going through them to find numbers. She's got a ball spinning here and she's finding numbers in the maths book,

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  putting her finger on them. And if they come out of this ball that she's spinning, she'll play them in the lottery.

• 1:37:26Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  I would wake up and she had an egg on my head.

• 1:37:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  She'd put an egg on my head when I woke up in the morning and be doing smoke in my room. So I saw this like superstitious, you know, and we all, all four of us, are the most pragmatic, I mean mathematicians, pragmatic. We require data to believe things and we rejected that.

• 1:37:46Rich Roll?

  Right, as a reaction.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah. It was just so strange to us. So we've all grown up to be very logical and evidence-based, every single one of us. And I've applied that to my life clearly, where I'm super skeptical about things.

• 1:37:59Rich Roll?

  And yet, you found your way to Melanie.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  Who sees the world very differently and navigates it differently than you. And there's something about that that clearly is intriguing and interesting and compelling.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  Every girlfriend is like that. Every girlfriend I've had is like that.

• 1:38:14Rich Roll?

  Right, right. So what is that?

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  I think it's, I mean, maybe there's some Freudian mother.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  But I think outside of that, I am also a really, really curious person.

• 1:38:25Rich Roll?

  You've outsourced your awe and wonder to your partner.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. That's why I said.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  Which makes you feel safe while also appreciating it as long as it is at arm's length.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And as long as it's not trying to convert me.

• 1:38:37Rich Roll?

  It's not threatening your, yeah, your, your mental model.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  I love it. I would not be with, I said to her last two days ago when we're in the car talking about this. Notice how I've never dated anyone like myself. I said, that would be a nightmare. I love being able to look into your world and your window and, and see how you're, you're doing the investigations for me. You're rummaging around and then you're telling me about it, but you're not trying to convert me. You're sharing. And from that, I've taken things, I've become a way better person because of that, in that non-threatening way. Like she's not threatening to me. She's not trying to convert me to anything. So it's been a wonderful balance in my life, having her, both for work-life balance, or whatever they call it, but also for like spiritual balance. And she'll notice in me, she's noticed a huge change in me since she met me.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  It's just slower. My girlfriend, and I say this with all respect, she defaults to accepting

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  new ideas and beliefs about the world. I default to interrogation and pessimism. And one or two of them get in, but they get in slowly and after meeting certain criteria.

• 1:39:42Rich Roll?

  They have to be, they're sort of stress tested before you let them in a little bit. Like breath work, I don't know what the science says about it, but you've had an experience with it.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter the science to me. I mean, the guy explained it to me and that's probably why he was the right person to do it with me. He explained the physiological processes in my body with fight or flight and how we, how we live in a state of shallow breathing and how the oxygen in the brain. And then we did the session. I, so you have explanation, you have experience, acceptance for me. You can't just give me explanation.

• 1:40:21Rich Roll?

  You have an interesting relationship with risk. For you, the risk would be to live an ordinary life. To extend yourself and, you know, kind of pursue these startups doesn't feel like a risk to you in the way that it would maybe for somebody who's wired a little bit differently. So I'm curious around what you feel to be risky? Or what is it that is luring you in a certain direction but frightens you? And feels like a risk even though, you know, perhaps it's something you should explore?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  The thing that frightens me, I think if I'm being honest, is as the platform that I have, like with the Diary of a CEO, has gotten bigger, with that comes just more feedback to deal with. Goes, kind of goes back to what I was saying about rejection and that kid in the playground and in school. Your success, which you drive towards because you want validation, you want clapping, right? Also comes with booing. And I think that is the thing that frightens me. Like, I know that in order to have a happy life going forward, what I need is a small context of people that I love that are around me and to be doing things for intrinsic reasons.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  But as that expands, the temptation to tune into external voices or to do things that aren't intrinsic increases. And that is the risk that I face in my life. Being swayed away from myself and into caring about the noise that I've clearly been intentional in trying to create. Does that make sense?

• 1:41:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  That's the thing that terrifies me.

• 1:42:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  And how that might hurt my life. Like, one of the things I'm scared of is like people knowing who my girlfriend is and how that might ruin this special part of my life that is keeping, is really pure and wonderful and small and feels like a, you know. I'm scared of that, you know. Rogan's managed that really, really well because people don't really, keeps that out of it.

• 1:42:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he seems very conscious around what he's willing to share about his personal life. But I think that's the trade-off, right? You're in the public sphere and it comes with the good and it comes with the bad.

• 1:42:35Rich Roll?

  But can you rest your head every night knowing that you put out content that is attempting to raise the vibration of consciousness? Like you, you, you truly are approaching this from a place of curiosity and genuine interest to learn and to share good ideas with people. And maybe not every episode is going to connect with everybody in the way that you would like. But I think intention matters. And I think it's very clear, the intention that you're bringing to what it is that you're doing. And I guess what I would say is with that, irrespective of what the cackling in the caucus

• 1:43:18Rich Roll?

  is around whatever episode or whatever's happening that's outside of your control, can you not just sleep easy, knowing that you did your best to do good in the world?

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, 95% of times.

• 1:43:32Rich Roll?

  So then what, what trips you up?

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  That, you know, it would be, this is why I try not to expose myself too broadly. It would be some kind of external, I'm new to being in the public eye. So I haven't put the systems in place everywhere yet to dealing with that. I've, over the last six, 12 months, made a lot of progress, but I went from being someone that people really didn't know at all, to being on the, like the number one business show in the UK called Dragon's Den, which is like Shark Tank in America, being a dragon on there and the podcast in correlation to that surging in the country, to being the most downloaded in our, in our country. And that suddenly thrust me to the front and I didn't have systems in place to deal

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  with that, which meant that like walking down the street in Shoreditch, there's a reporter following in the car, taking photos of me and my girlfriend walking down the street, then publishing those and saying things that aren't true about, we were walking to the gym, we were on our way back from the gym. The pictures in the newspapers say like-

• 1:44:34Rich Roll?

  Having a row.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a heartbreak. He's like gotten back with his girlfriend after she, she dumped him for work, overworking. Now, when you receive that, the brain is not, doesn't know how to process that if just, if trying, if you try and process that without conscious, consciousness and intentionality. So how do I handle those, those, that information and feedback in a way that will allow me to remain focused on what matters in my life? That's what I've been working on for the last two years. And I think I've made a lot of good progress, if I'm honest. To put those systems in place, but as you propel further into the public eye, because your show's growing hugely, my show grows, what comes next? You know, I look at other people who are further down the line. I look at some of the stuff that like Rogan has been through and I go, man.

• 1:45:18Rich Roll?

  I don't wish that on anyone.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  I don't wish that on anybody.

• 1:45:21Rich Roll?

  And I, and I wouldn't like to endure what, you know, like a version of what you just shared. I feel like right now I'm in this sort of perfect place where occasionally people say hi to me, but it's always nice and it isn't invasive into my life. And, and I'm very cautious about it morphing into anything more unmanageable than that.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  The only reason it did for me was because I went on to a show, which is like an institution in our country.

• 1:45:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Like, so if you go on, if, I think if I was doing my podcast, it wouldn't be the case. If it's the minute that I went into that world.

• 1:45:56Rich Roll?

  The traditional media world. Yeah.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  That's when it all changed for me. Before then I didn't have this, I didn't have this issue. No one cared about me. No one wanted to write anything about me or talk about me. Um, and I almost, you know, suggesting Rogan is obviously so big that he is.

• 1:46:10Rich Roll?

  It's a whole different thing.

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  It's a whole different thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, and he's also a UFC and, you know, everything he's done on TV. So.

• 1:46:17Rich Roll?

  So you have this new book, um, the Diary of a CEO, which I really enjoyed. I was sharing with you, um, yesterday on the street about it. On the one hand, it's really chock full of all kinds of timeless wisdom. It's definitely written with an eye towards it being timeless. It doesn't matter that it's 2023 or what year it is. Um, but also in a way that's quite breezy and easy to digest and read. With recaps and it's sort of written with an eye towards grabbing attention, holding attention and, and keeping it as lean as possible. Like there's no extra words here. You say exactly what you need to say in order to drive your point home

• 1:46:58Rich Roll?

  and to support it with studies or examples of people that you've had on the podcast. Um, and I think you did a really wonderful job and it's going to impact a lot of people. But I'm curious around why you decided to write a book. We were talking yesterday and I was saying, yeah, you can spend. Two years writing a book, it will make less money than doing a podcast, it will reach less people. Like the, in your mental model of running the equation of, you know, value and investment of time, resources, et cetera, how do you come out squaring that equation on the side of, of, you know, investing the time and energy required to put something out that's good?

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  There's so much to be gained in the unobvious decision. Throughout this conversation, we've talked about how when sort of inauthenticity was high, there was this counter movement towards authenticity. And now there's like another counter movement, which is like fake authenticity. When digital music came along, you know, vinyls surged again. Now that we've become more glued to screens and phones, I R L community things are surging. You even see bowling alleys being, making a comeback and miniature golf and all these things. And I believe the same about-

• 1:48:11Rich Roll?

  Pickleball.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, all of these things that are coming back and it's, I, I, I love it so much because I bet on humans innate desire for connection and being together in a world where everyone's optimizing in the other direction, it will always be there. So there's a big opportunity there to bring people together. Last night, we actually did a dinner party for Dara Vaseer listeners, third one we've done. There's nothing more magical that we've ever done as a team. There's nothing where people won't leave the room. Twenty total strangers from our community that stand up, they all have question cards in front of them from the podcast, they reveal something deeply intimate about them, vulnerable about them. Those twenty people become best friends that night, they, they're literally best friends. They make WhatsApp groups together and then they're friends for, like, since the last one we've done, they've been meeting up in recurrently.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  There's something so beautiful about the unobvious, polar opposite path. There's, there's wonder there and that's kind of how I see a book. I spend all my time making content, Instagram quotes and podcasts and the wonder I found in something both physical.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  That has such depth, that takes so long to write, it's hard to articulate, but it's it was it's the most enjoyable thing to me when a couple hundred thousand people whoever or however many that buy that book, read that, focus on it, and then have a conversation with me about it. It's way more impactful than the Facebook video I did. I did thirty million views. That was just a quick, cheap viral video, three minutes long. That did a big number, but in terms of meaning, didn't mean anything to anyone. Books are depth, they're meaning, and they're they're considered. There's no comment section, you know?

• 1:49:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  It's so special.

• 1:49:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's indelible and and lasting. In a in a in a culture that's increasingly recycled, there is a there is a there is still a sense of permanence around writing books.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it makes no sense to it makes no sense if you if you score it based on the traditional scoring system, like you did, like money, time it takes, reach. But it makes all the sense when you score it based on fulfillment for me to write it, fulfillment for the people that take the time to complete the book. And as you say, enduring, because social media and all these other mediums are fairly ephemeral. This is the antithesis of that. There's usually value in the antithesis. That's what I've come to learn in my life.

• 1:50:39Rich Roll?

  So if somebody's listening or watching this and they're thinking, I'm not a business person, I have no desire to be a CEO, I don't even know any CEOs, except maybe my boss, like, why should I read this book? And, you know, I have a lot of reasons that I could speak to about that. But I want to hear from you, like, the average person picking this up, diary of a CEO.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  I'm not a business person. I'm not a any of those things. I consider myself to be a guy who's trying to

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  Live the best life I can and who has conducted experiments over the last fifteen years to understanding exactly what you described, to understanding which laws and principles will get me closer to living the life I want to live. And I think that's what this book is largely. It's these thirty-three principles that have been hard fought through experimentation in my life relating to yourself, towards being happy, towards having good relationships, towards knowing how to communicate with another human being, towards how to tell stories, to understanding the psychological biases that are at force in all of our lives, making us choose Apple over Samsung or Uber over Lyft or whatever it is. Understanding why humans do what they do, including yourself, is really the nature of this book and it allows

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  you to understand your team members, yourself, your customers and all of those things. So.

• 1:52:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a social psychology book.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:52:03Rich Roll?

  More than anything. And the first third of it is really about the self.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Rich Roll?

  This idea that you can't be a leader or run an organization if you're not first tending to your vessel. And you discuss all the various ways in which you've done that or things you've learned as a result of hosting the podcast about that. But that's the fundamental pillar upon which everything else rests.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a question? Because you're a very smart person and I know you actually read the book. So what law stood out to you? I've never had any feedback on the book ever before because you're one of the first to read it.

• 1:52:36Rich Roll?

  Well, I think that, I mean, certainly there's plenty in there that I already knew or maybe I didn't have words for, but I already kind of understood the idea that, you know, knowledge is the best investment of your energy and that everything is built upon from there, skill, relationships, network, et cetera. I really love that idea. The one percent, kind of David Braille's Ford rule, who's the British cycling Team Sky guy. I love that. The idea of success being measured in progress rather than results, like being in this persistent state of moving in a certain direction is actually more meaningful than achieving goals or, you know, hitting benchmarks. It's that sense of.

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  We're going somewhere and we're doing it together. I found it to be really interesting and powerful. And then all this sort of marketing stuff that I don't know about, like why the Apple Store is the way it is and why that works, creating this, first of allowing you to touch the products and having a sense of ownership over them. And the kind of luxury scarcity notion of space to product ratio that exists there. And the examples that you gave around creating friction between the customer and the product, I thought was something I hadn't heard of with the cake mix.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:59Rich Roll?

  It wasn't working when it was so easy until they realized that and said, okay, now you have to add an egg. And suddenly, sales were more like, all these weird kind of counterintuitive marketing things that then you go on to describe how you apply them in your podcast was personally relevant to me. Cause I was like, wait, he does what? Like, you know, I'm reading this book. I joked with you yesterday, I'm gonna make everyone on my team read this. I'm like, all these, like, this is some fucking crazy Machiavellian shit that he's doing on this podcast that's making it grow. And like, we're looking at YouTube, trying to figure out like, what are we missing here? Or what, I don't, I'll put out amazing content and sometimes it's flat on YouTube and I don't know what I'm doing. And I see you with this hockey stick growth right now.

• 1:54:43Rich Roll?

  And then I read the book and I realized like, oh, the level of intentionality, the attention to detail, all these things that I really appreciate that aren't, you know, like, great mysteries. It's like, you really care about what you do. You've hired really good skilled people. You stay up late with them and you pay attention to the small details, the things that other people don't care about, that become the differentiator. And that's something that I believe in. And I thought that I was doing until I read the book and realized like, oh, this guy's at a whole fucking other level. Like, the story that you tell about when the guests come in to the studio, you do enough research to play the music that they like, like their favorite music. And not one guest has ever mentioned it.

• 1:55:27Rich Roll?

  But the idea that you think that that's important as a detail. And then I was trying to remember what music you were playing when I came in. I can't remember, I don't know. I was like, what? Anyway, I thought all of that was super fascinating. Cause, cause- Because I really am proud of the fact that I think that we're executing at a very high level on our podcast and then to realize like, oh, there's so much more growth. There are so many other things that I wasn't even thinking about. And credit to, you know, the success that you're, that you're having with the show right now. But I don't think, I think those details are all super important, but I think they speak to a broader commitment and intentionality that you're bringing to the conversations.

• 1:56:09Rich Roll?

  And I think that's the real mover in why your show is doing so well and connecting with so many people. Because none of those details matter unless the conversation itself is special.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  The conversation itself is the part that I feel like I haven't ran any experiments on, because it's just led by curiosity. So when you walk in the door, there's no data that's going to tell me what to speak to you about. It's what I'm interested about in this individual. Outside of that, the process undergoes a lot of experimentation and 1% searching. But the conversation is like, like I said with Simon Sinek, where he comes and sits down and says, I'm lonely. I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask him the questions I care about. I've actually never written a question down. I have bullet points of dates and stuff, but I've never in my, my own.

• 1:56:51Rich Roll?

  You want to see my outline? This is like, I do the same thing. They're not questions, they're just, they're ideas, right? But I think this, this is interesting because this goes to what we were talking about earlier, the head and the heart. The head wants to say, here is the architecture for a perfect conversation. Here's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to start with the Mr. Beast five second, how do I grab them? Well, I'll go on YouTube, I'll look at all the videos this person has done. And when I see those peaks, I know that's what people are most interested in. So I'm going to come out of the gate and ask that question first. That's all good. I'm not saying that doesn't work, but truthfully, the art of the conversation is a heart-centered thing, right? Are you present? Are you listening?

• 1:57:36Rich Roll?

  Are you sticking to an outline or are you actually paying attention to what the person is saying so that you can have an organic, authentic exchange of ideas and emotions? Because that's what moves the needle with people. And I always say, when people ask me, how do you approach podcast conversations? You do a lot of prep, but then you have to, like an actor, you have to put it away. And you have to be willing to go wherever it wants to lead you. And my goal as a host is to emotionally connect with the guest. If I can do that, then I can trust and have faith that the conversation will go in the direction that it's meant to go. But when I allow my head to be in the driver's seat, it ends up being, it ends up being flat.

• 1:58:21Rich Roll?

  So for me, it's all about the emotional connection. And I always prided myself on the guy who could make the guest cry or evoke, you know, something true and special emotionally in the person that I'm talking to. And I see you as somebody who really understands that as well. And that being at the heart of what you're trying to do. And that's something that you're not going to solve with a spreadsheet or a model.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  So interesting because people say, we, we've had a lot of emotion on our show. And in hindsight, when you're interviewed, people are trying to ask you how that happens. And so you're trying to figure it out yourself. So you're trying to apply your head and go, well, maybe it's because we do this and this and this and this and this. But it's a hindsight thing. At the end of the day, it's because I genuinely cared about trying to find something out about them and really understand that thing. And also listening has actually been the most underrated thing about our show. It's like, people will go where they want to go. And the longer you let them go there, the higher probability that they're going to go to a level they've never been before. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:59:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you have to create an environment that's permissive for that experience. And the way that you do that is to, yes, listen, but also lead with vulnerability yourself. You can't expect the guest to open up if they don't have the sense that you're willing to meet them there.

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  So true. So true.

• 1:59:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And people will say, oh, Stephen, he's the guy, he's the guy who, he wants to know about the trauma. Like, what's the trauma that made you the special person that you are?

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Rich Roll?

  And that's really the, I think that's the sort of. Skeleton key that unlocks your approach to your guests.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  I think it's important to say that that's because I genuinely want to know.

• 2:00:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  I had a.

• 2:00:07Rich Roll?

  And it's real.

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a tour guide for seven days in Peru. First six days, he's talking to me about buildings, so I'm not even, honestly, I'll be honest. I'm not paying attention to him. My girlfriend's talking to him for those first six days. On the seventh day, he starts talking about the variance in happiness and mood and trauma that he's seen from all of these guests that he's taken on the tours from China to Poland. And I am glued. I'm transfixed on him. And he says to me at that dinner on the seventh day when we're parting ways, he goes, you didn't care for the first six days about these buildings. You didn't care about how old this building was. The minute I started talking about people and why they are the way they are, you were like, I was interviewing him. What about these people? What about these people? Are they more grateful? Are they happier? And that was just another instance for me. Also, I think about my childhood. I couldn't date people because my first questions were always too deep.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  So it was a nice filter for me to see if they were my type of person, because I might ask them straight away a really deep question about themselves. And a lot of people don't like that. My podcast is a reflection of what I'm interested in. I want to know why people are the way they are. I'd love to interview serial killers and just to understand, you know, what's making them tick under there, so.

• 2:01:16Rich Roll?

  Who is it that you really want to get on right now?

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  Do you know, one of the people I want to get on is Elon, because I used to have him on my wall, you know, as like an elite entrepreneur that solves huge problems and is unlabeled. I love people that are unlabeled. Like when you said earlier that I'm a CEO or an entrepreneur, I like see myself as this as a person with a multitude of interests. He's achieved so much across such a broad range of things. His life is clearly overextended in any in any measure. I want to know if he's really happy. And also, in the last year, there's been a bit of a change in Elon with this whole Twitter thing, the way he's speaking online. And I want to get to the heart of why that is, why he's changed. He's become a little bit ugly in his tone sometimes, in my opinion.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  And I want to know if he cares about happiness because I've heard him say on to Rogan, you wouldn't want to be in my head. It's so painful. But Rogan didn't ask more about that.

• 2:02:12Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  I would love to know more about that.

• 2:02:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is driving his online persona and that erratic behavior? What's beneath that? What's behind that? What is the need that he's trying to fill by purchasing Twitter? And becoming this sort of, um, uh, you know, trolly kind of edgelord online.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  What is it doing?

• 2:02:36Rich Roll?

  It's not befitting a man of his stature who has, you know, really revolutionized industry. And had he not purchased Twitter and kind of become addicted to, you know, what he's doing online. We would just be in absolute reverence of this guy. And he would have had a lot more time to pursue, you know, changing the world in, in meaningful and positive ways.

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  And hanging out with his kids, his nine kids or something, 10, I don't know.

• 2:03:04Rich Roll?

  Has a lot of kids, doesn't he?

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  Does he not? Does he care?

• 2:03:07Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't, I've never, I've never met him.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  That's why I want to know. What about you? Who do you want to have on?

• 2:03:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that would be one.

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  I've never seen someone have a conversation with Elon that I want to have. You would be great to have Elon on because you would go to the same places that I think I would want to go.

• 2:03:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I think you're somebody who, you know, I listened to a lot of old interviews with you and you talk a lot about Elon. And I, and I found myself wondering, I was listening to a couple of interviews over the last week that you had, that you had done maybe from like 2020, 2021. And, and, and yes, you have a lot of reverence for what he's achieved and, and his kind of, um, unique way of thinking and problem solving. And I found myself wondering, like, I wonder if he would say that in 2023.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Well, he's no longer on my wall. Because I don't feel the same way about him. I have huge admiration for the way he thinks, his first principle mindset, which I've completely stolen. And all of these things relating to innovation, problem solving, and also kind of like getting a lot done.

• 2:04:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  But I can't relate to this guy that I see doing the memes and the kind of right wingy. Some of the rhetoric, I just find it quite ugly and divisive. And I'm trying to square it. So I'd like to speak to.

• 2:04:19Rich Roll?

  There's a bit of a, there, I think a charitable interpretation would be that he enjoys being a chaos agent. And there's a little bit of, um. A little bit of the twinkle in his eye like he knows that he's being provocative. And there's something thrilling about that for him. That would be the most charitable interpretation.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  My guess is that he did the right thing for a long time. Built this car company, built this rocket company. Tesla changed the automotive industry. It was the catalyst for laws changing, proving that you could have fast, quote unquote, affordable electric cars. And then all the other manufacturers have followed suit. He's done really great stuff and he was attacked. And he was attacked relentlessly. And even the president of the United States, when talking about environmental issues, attacked him for subsidies.

• 2:05:11Rich Roll?

  And he's not invited onto their, their like panel of EV, you know, auto manufacturers.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  The left have attacked him relentlessly. So he's found a home, as he kind of puts it on his own words, on the right. And as a way to stop the attacks or take control over it of all these journalists, he bought Twitter. That was the home of the attacks. It was kind of a way to stifle the attacks. Now he finds himself over on the right, kind of. And, you know, I think, I think that was it. I think he couldn't comprehend that he was doing good for good reasons. Yet these people were trying to destroy him. And they were trying to destroy him. Some of the stories that came out of that.

• 2:05:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I think on top of that, I would add, I think he's said publicly that he, you know, would have liked to have been a stand up comic. So there's a part of him, there's a little comedian aspect to that, that I think he's trying to express.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. No, you're right. You are.

• 2:06:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So who, who's replaced Elon on that wall for you then?

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  You haven't given me your answer yet.

• 2:06:10Rich Roll?

  What?

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  You haven't given me your answer.

• 2:06:12Rich Roll?

  Ah.

• 2:06:14Rich Roll?

  Let me think about that.

• 2:06:18Rich Roll?

  I don't spend a lot of time thinking about this kind of stuff. It's sort of like, you know, where do you see yourself in five years? You know what I mean? It's like, people think that I have some answer, you know, at the ready. Cause I do get asked this question a lot.

• 2:06:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:31Rich Roll?

  And because I'm asked it so often, I should have an answer. And every time I get asked it, I can't think of anything. I mean, the truth is like, the people that I'm interested in having, I get to have on.

• 2:06:41Speaker 01

  You have one interview left.

• 2:06:43Rich Roll?

  Oh, God.

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  You have, you get one interview. Who do you have it with?

• 2:06:49Rich Roll?

  There's so many variables that play into that because you can think of archetypal individuals who would be amazing, but then you think, yeah, but is that person really going to open up to me? Am I going to actually get anything interesting out of that person? Because they're so media savvy, or because this is just another interview. So I think the receptivity piece is really important. You know what I mean? Like, it's not about getting the big name. It's about the person who is ready and it being the right time for that conversation. I think timing is super important. Where are they in their life? Are they in a place where they really want to open up in a way that they haven't before? And not everybody wants to do that. Most people don't. They have too much to

• 2:07:31Rich Roll?

  lose and not enough to gain. So that's what I think about, and I think about that more than I think about the person. Because I think every single person could deliver the best podcast I've ever done.

• 2:07:47Speaker 02

  And yeah, exactly.

• 2:07:48Rich Roll?

  And for me, when people say to you, who's your favorite guest, blah, blah, blah, you get asked that a lot, right? And I was asked that in the hallway out here just before coming in. And I said what I always say, which is like, it's very difficult to choose. But I will say this, and I'm curious how this lands for you. I'm still dodging your.

• 2:08:07Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna let you.

• 2:08:08Rich Roll?

  I'll get to it. For me, the most meaningful guests have been relatively anonymous people, maybe not totally anonymous, but not like big names, but people who just come in and they have the most amazing story and they tell it with such earnestness and pathos and integrity and honesty and vulnerability, that it ends up touching people in ways you couldn't have expected. And in turn, because of the scale of the podcast, it ends up impacting their life in a way they didn't anticipate and changing the trajectory of what they're doing and impacting people out in the world in a very meaningful way. And so those tend to be the most personally meaningful and gratifying.

• 2:08:55Rich Roll?

  Guests to have on, and they're not ones that you would know their names necessarily.

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  Because you-

• 2:09:00Rich Roll?

  So I'm always looking for those people.

• 2:09:02Speaker 01

  You help that person get the credit they deserve.

• 2:09:04Rich Roll?

  Sure. You get, you have the privilege of shining a light on somebody who is deserving of that attention, who otherwise might never have received it.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:09:15Rich Roll?

  So as fun as it is to have shiny people on the podcast, the real value for me is in finding those nuggets, you know, that are hidden under the rocks and maybe living between the crevices and unearthing them and pushing them out in front and saying, "Share."

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I couldn't add another word to what you just said. If I had to add a different, a different point, my second favorite type of guest, I mean, that's definitely it. We say this all the time, but my second favorite is when you think you know someone because they've been in the public eye and they've presented a certain image. We had a guy on called Jimmy Carr, and he's a comedian that's known for just one-liners. They're usually kind of like filthy one-liners. And he walked in that day and he was this completely different person, this deep philosophical guy that spent the whole two hours talking about what happiness truly is. And it shocked me. It shocked our viewers. And it's, um, it was one of the best performing conversations. A totally different individual to the one you know.

• 2:10:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:19Speaker 01

  That felt really worthwhile.

• 2:10:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but that's, that's like lightning striking. You know what I mean?

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:27Rich Roll?

  You can't manufacture that in somebody. Like, it takes two people. And that, like, it goes back to what I was saying about timing.

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:33Rich Roll?

  That person was in the right mindset at the right time in their life where they were willing to share something that perhaps even weeks earlier, they would have been too afraid to. And something about the, the environment that you're cultivating and creating that is conducive to those types of conversations. You have to set a tone and, and create a space where somebody feels safe doing that. And sometimes it's hard. Look, we're in here, there's cameras, there's lights. You're comfortable. I'm comfortable doing this. Not everybody is. How can you transcend that and get past that so that the person, um-

• 2:11:14Rich Roll?

  Can be in that in that flow state to allow that honesty to come forth.

• 2:11:20Speaker 01

  I wish I knew.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  I had a really interesting conversation with Brian Johnson on my podcast. You know Brian Johnson?

• 2:11:26Rich Roll?

  I've never met him in person. We've had emails and I know a lot about him. And I don't want to step on your words, but I know I have I have lots of friends who know him. And I think what's interesting about him is on the surface, looking in, you would think, well, this guy's a weirdo, like he, you know, he's lost his mind or his priorities are off. But every single person I know that's spent any time with him has found him to be incredibly genuine, humble, curious, and and well intentioned with integrity in what he's doing. And I think it's cool that he's out there doing that. Somebody needs to, right? So he's like this canary in a coal mine who's testing all of these things for us. So anyway, I.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  You've nailed it. It's my team was saying to me before he arrived at the studio, what do you think of him? I don't know. And Will out there actually apologized. I'm sure Will won't mind me saying this. Will said to me, kept saying to me, like, what do you think of that Brian guy? God, you know? And my other team members were going, what do you think of that Brian guy? And I remember saying to my team, I've not met him yet. I don't know yet.

• 2:12:33Rich Roll?

  You can read a Page Six or a Daily Mail article.

• 2:12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I'm not interested in that stuff. Brian sat in front of me and presented himself for two to three hours. And in that conversation, I reserved my judgment and learnt about Brian. At the end of the conversation, he said something to me, which is the biggest compliment any guest has ever given me. He goes, Steve, I go around and I do lots of these interviews. And I'm very well attuned to little micro expressions or micro questions that are laced with a kernel of judgment. He goes, this last sentence he says in my podcast, you did none of that. And it was the best compliment a guest has ever given me because it really mattered to me that someone who is clearly so prejudged before they walk in a room to do an interview,

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  felt that, felt safe in my environment, that I, there was no ounce of judgment and it was all curiosity. And I almost got emotional, I almost get emotional thinking about it now, when he said that, because that matters so much to me. And I think that's part of it, is like, taking people as, not as the headlines or the research notes say, but as the person you meet and understanding that they are human, they want love, they want all the things that I want at the most fundamental level. And if you, I think if you meet them on that level, then you can, you can go to interesting places.

• 2:13:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think that's more profound than how to approach a podcast conversation, because if you can bring that level of presence, compassion, understanding, and non-judgment to your daily interactions with your friends, your family, your coworkers, people you meet on the street, you will have that same experience.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  I struggle with that.

• 2:14:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, me too.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  Funny, I'm good at doing it on a podcast, but I'm not good at my own life.

• 2:14:15Rich Roll?

  With the cameras in the light car, it's like, it's all performance and good, right?

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:19Rich Roll?

  Can you do that when you're stuck in traffic or with the grocery clerk when you're late, you know, those are the real moments.

• 2:14:27Speaker 01

  I struggle with it, particularly with people close to me in my life, where I struggle to apply the same level of empathy to the circumstances that might have made them the way they are. And I, and I'm trying to fight with logic to change them.

• 2:14:42Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, the model might be, can you bring that beginner's mind to each of those exchanges?

• 2:14:49Speaker 01

  Oh, I wish.

• 2:14:50Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 2:14:53Speaker 01

  I wish. I beat myself up about it quite often, actually, that I'm not able to apply myself in the way I'd like to, to those situations, where someone I love in my life is exhibiting recurring behaviors that are self-destructive, and I don't approach it with enough empathy, I approach it with like,

• 2:15:12Rich Roll?

  Problem solving.

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I need to fix you. How can I fix you?

• 2:15:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  And it's not working.

• 2:15:17Rich Roll?

  How's that work?

• 2:15:17Speaker 01

  It's not working. We're eight, you know, we're eight, nine years in with some of my, one person in particular, and I've made, I've made, I've probably, if anything, I might have made things worse. I think about that, too. I think the way I've approached the situation might be the opposite medicine or antidote to what they need. They might need someone just to sit in the mud with them, as Simon says.

• 2:15:36Rich Roll?

  Usually they do, right? I think it's, my, my wife would call it robbing people of their divine moment.

• 2:15:43Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 2:15:46Rich Roll?

  If you're trying to fix it, if you're trying to intervene, you're interrupting a process of learning and experience for that person that perhaps they're better off experiencing without your involvement.

• 2:16:01Speaker 01

  So you get out the mud? Or you just sit in the mud?

• 2:16:03Rich Roll?

  No, you support and you listen and you say, I believe in you to find a solution for yourself and I'm here for you, rather than here's what you need to do.

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so hard, especially for someone that has the bias towards thinking about data and solutions and evidence and patterns and, you know. Something I really struggle with and I, I want to be better because I think I'd have richer, more authentic, deeper relationships if I was able to do that more often.

• 2:16:32Rich Roll?

  All right, well, we got to wrap it up here, but what have we learned? We've learned that you're going to be doing, you're going to go back to your original format and do some monologuing.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  That's a promise before the end of the year.

• 2:16:42Rich Roll?

  Did we get an agreement that you're going to begin a meditation practice? We're not so sure on that one.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  I didn't think we got the agreement, but I think we.

• 2:16:48Rich Roll?

  We, we're a little shy of that.

• 2:16:50Speaker 01

  Something needs to happen.

• 2:16:50Rich Roll?

  We're thinking about it.

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  I need to go on a meditation retreat, one of your retreats. You do this on your retreats?

• 2:16:55Rich Roll?

  Uh, we do, yeah.

• 2:16:56Speaker 01

  When are they?

• 2:16:57Rich Roll?

  Uh, if we're doing another one, I'll let you know.

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  Please let me know.

• 2:17:00Rich Roll?

  You're in Bali all the time. You can't throw a stone at any meditation retreat.

• 2:17:07Rich Roll?

  So we have that. What else are we, uh, oh, um, yeah. How are we, how are we thinking about the, the transcendent and the divine? We're planting that seed in you, Stephen.

• 2:17:17Speaker 01

  What's the first step for me?

• 2:17:19Rich Roll?

  I can't tell you that. That would be me robbing you of your divine, your divine path. You have to figure that out for yourself.

• 2:17:27Speaker 01

  I'll keep my eyes open.

• 2:17:28Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:17:31Rich Roll?

  In the meantime, while your eyes are open, everybody's eyes should be directed to The Diary of a CEO podcast and the new book of the same name. Again, you did really a wonderful job with this book.

• 2:17:44Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:17:44Rich Roll?

  Even if you have no interest in business, it's really a primer for how to think about your own life, how to prioritize your time, your resources, your attention. And if nothing else, it allows you to see the world more clearly in the way that some of your favorite companies operate to manipulate you, hijack your attention, and garner your business. Is there anything else? What is the main idea you want people to take away?

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  You've nailed it. You've nailed it. I have nothing more to add. And thank you so much for inviting me onto your platform. You're someone that I've watched for many, many years. And there's so much about you that I admire, that I realize I will never, I will never get to. And again, maybe this is the distinction between aspiration and admiration or something, but there's so much about the way you conduct yourself, the way you hold yourself, your values and your integrity, that I think I'm, I'm still a little bit short on, but I aspire to get there. And it's indescribable. I don't even know how I pointed it, but it's the way in which you carry yourself, and the clarity of your intentions, and how I experience that, that I would love to replicate someday or get closer to. So

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  you're a big role model for me in that regard. And that's why spending time with you, recording, but also when we went to watch Manchester United lose in London, was really wonderful because vicariously, it's contagious. I can, part of it is sort of impressed upon me. So I thank you for that. I thank you for inviting me onto your show because it is one of the legendary shows out there. And so it's an honor.

• 2:19:13Rich Roll?

  I really, I appreciate that. That, that, that means a lot, Stephen. It really does. It touches me that you would say that. My, my kind of reflexive reaction to that is to deflect, and also make sure that you understand that I'm just riddled with character defects. So whatever I'm emanating, please understand that I'm, you know, my own worst enemy most of the time. But that means a lot. You know, I've, I've been watching you for quite some time. And how you show up in public life. And I think it's incredibly admirable and, and impactful, the integrity and the thoughtfulness that you put into

• 2:19:55Rich Roll?

  What you're sharing, why you're sharing it and how you're sharing it, particularly in contrast to the sort of entrepreneurship CEO wealth porn of social media of people getting out of, you know, sports cars and walking on to private jets, et cetera. I mean, that's what we're attuned to and you're modeling something very different. And, and the fact that you have become this powerful role model for an entire new generation of entrepreneurs, business people, and just people who are of influence in the world, I think is, is, is very meaningful. And I wish there were more people out there like you. And the fact

• 2:20:36Rich Roll?

  that when I came and did your show, which I enjoyed tremendously, you then extended an invitation for me and, and my kid to join you at a Manchester United game. And I got to spend a whole afternoon with you was an incredibly kind gesture that I will not forget. I really appreciate, appreciate what you do and how you do it.

• 2:20:58Speaker 01

  Thank you, Rich. I don't know what else to say. Thank you.

• 2:21:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So everybody check out Diary of a CEO podcast book, at Steven on social, at Steven Bartlett on Instagram, though.

• 2:21:10Speaker 01

  Steven on Instagram and then Steven Bartlett on Twitter.

• 2:21:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. I had it reversed. Yeah. And either way, he's easy to find. He's capable, right? And next time you come to LA, please try to hang out a little bit.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  I look forward to it. Thank you so much. It's an honor.

• 2:21:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  Really.

• 2:21:26Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:21:40Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify. And on YouTube and leave a review and/or comment.

• 2:22:24Rich Roll?

  Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well as Dan Drake.

• 2:23:09Rich Roll?

  Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. [music]