Henry Wang on China's Role in the New Emerging World Order

There is a widespread view that China is a superpower of rising status, and that a new global order is emerging with the country as an important pole in it. You see this with the growing BRICS organization. You also see this with the leaders who went to Beijing recently for the country's military parade. And of course, this comes at a time when the US is erecting trade barriers with everyone, including many of our closest friends and allies. So how does China see its role in this world? Will it play a role that's similar to what the US has played? Will it look very different? Does China want to reinvigorate legacy multi-lateral organizations like the UN? On this episode, we speak with Henry Huiyao Wang, the Founder and President of the Center for China and Globalization. Having been founded in 2008, the CCG is now China's largest independent think tank, with offices in multiple cities. We discuss China's perspective on the US, its potential role in establishing a Russia-Ukraine ceasefire, its perspective on Israel and Gaza, and the type of role it could play in a new form of globalization. Read more:China’s Defense Minister Warns on Taiwan, Condemns ‘Bullying’Why Is China Stockpiling So Much Oil? Only Bloomberg - Business News, Stock Markets, Finance, Breaking & World News subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlotsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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  Finance is increasingly being built on digital rails. But as the adoption of virtual assets, tokenization and stable coins grows, can regulation not only keep pace but help accelerate it? Find out more later in the podcast.

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  But according to recruiters, advisors and those who've interviewed for jobs there, it's the space exploration dream that draws people to the company. And Musk invokes that dream regularly to remind workers why they're there. Prospective hires are told that the job will require stamina, including in job ads that candidates quote "must be willing to work extended hours and weekends as needed." One major perk for all that hard work? Employees' access to equity, either the right to buy shares or payment in the form of restricted stock units that vest over time. That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Get started at chatgpt.com.

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• 3:04Joe Weisenthal?

  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

• 3:09Tracy Alloway?

  And I'm Tracy Alloway.

• 3:10Joe Weisenthal?

  Tracy, you know, we talk all the time about U.S. China relations multiple times a month.

• 3:16Tracy Alloway?

  Yes.

• 3:17Joe Weisenthal?

  For obvious reasons, we usually get it from something resembling a U.S. perspective, not always, but I think it's a bit skewed.

• 3:25Tracy Alloway?

  Yeah, there is a geographic bias at play for sure.

• 3:28Joe Weisenthal?

  And a linguistic one.

• 3:29Tracy Alloway?

  Yes, but you're right. There is always a lot going on with U.S. China relations and especially recently, right? So we're recording this on September 16th and we have Chinese and American officials gathering in, I think it's Madrid to talk trade, try to hammer out some sort of deal on the tariffs. By the time this episode comes out, maybe U.S. China relations will have changed completely, but somehow I doubt it.

• 3:53Joe Weisenthal?

  There's going to be some new era of peace. Everything is going to be solved. There's going to be no more anxiety about trade. A TikTok deal will have been made with the perfect algorithm that satisfies everyone. Everything, no, probably unlikely. Probably we're going to be talking about some version of this for a long time. I don't want to say, you know, it's not like our perspectives are just strictly U.S. You know, we talked to Cameron Johnson, who works in China regularly. So it's not none, but we obviously have. To change the mix up.

• 4:21Tracy Alloway?

  I admire your efforts at being unpartisan.

• 4:25Joe Weisenthal?

  Well, cross border, you know, we have to still do it via Zoom, obviously, but isn't this a long historic trend to try to like build, build dialogue between multiple sides and get multiple perspectives in the hopes of achieving something bigger down the road?

• 4:40Tracy Alloway?

  I'm gonna say is we need to go to Beijing.

• 4:42Joe Weisenthal?

  Oh.

• 4:42Tracy Alloway?

  Mostly for the food, but also for inter U S China dialogue.

• 4:47Joe Weisenthal?

  The dream is that in 2026, we host a live on in Beijing. We're putting it out into the world right now in the hope that we can manifest it into existence.

• 4:56Tracy Alloway?

  Yes.

• 4:56Joe Weisenthal?

  All right. Well, I am really excited to say that in these efforts, we really do have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Henry Wang. He is the founder and president for the Center for China and Globalization. It's the largest independent think tank in China. Someone perfectly placed to talk about all of these topics from a Chinese perspective that we don't usually get. So, Henry, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

• 5:20Speaker 06

  Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure.

• 5:22Joe Weisenthal?

  What is the Center for China and Globalization? Why did you found it? What is its goal? And what is this independent think tank that exists?

• 5:30Speaker 06

  Yes, we actually founded since 2008, actually.

• 5:35Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 5:35Speaker 06

  Right after the Beijing Olympic. You know, at that time, you know, when we watched the Beijing Olympic, the slogan for the Olympics then was one world, one dream. So we thought that that's actually it's a globalization and and China actually embarked on a globalization year because I think Olympic, Beijing Olympics in 2008 was something that China starting to really looking globally. And so that's where we we start to found this think tank. At first I have to take out a lot of savings, you know, I was doing a business before, but we really want to start this. But I really have found this think tank to kind of combine my experience in the government, business and academic. And also, you know, since then, it's 17, 18 years now and.

• 6:19Speaker 06

  We've become one of the top one hundred think tank in the world, actually ranked four times in the top hundred by the University of Pennsylvania Think Tank and Service Society Program. So, so, so CCG, you know, in abbreviation for Center for China Global, is a bridge, is a communication platform, dialogue platform, and also is a research platform for big issues, policy issues regarding US and China, global governance, global economy, and of course, global migration, so just to name a few. But, but since then, we've been doing okay. We had about over sixty, seventy people and we, we've been based in Beijing and Hangzhou

• 7:01Speaker 06

  and Guangzhou, a few places in China, and we've been very active. We're doing a hundred event a year. We publish a dozen books and multiple reports. So, so thank you for, for, for asking that.

• 7:13Tracy Alloway?

  So you described the center as something of a bridge, and I was reading an Economist article from a couple of years ago where you yourself are described as something of a go-between for technocratic government ministries, Chinese entrepreneurs, and foreign embassies in Beijing. So my question is, how busy have you been lately?

• 7:33Speaker 06

  We are pretty busy. I'll just give you a few examples. For example, last week I was in Xiamen attending September eighth, the twenty-five annual China investment and business forum and expo there. And the Vice Premier He Li Feng, who is now in Madrid, talking with Scott Benson, was there, opening up that forum. And so I was speaking as a keynote speaker at one of the BRICS Summit Conference there. But also just Friday, Center for China Global has held another conference at China International Service Expo, you know, held in Beijing, where there's another hundred-some countries come as well.

• 8:17Speaker 06

  And yesterday, we had our seventeenth monthly VIP launching, and we have ten ambassadors from European, from Japan, from Turkey, from many other countries, quite a number from European countries. And just yesterday, with fifty people, also IMF representative in China, we have a lot of multinational global media.

• 8:41Speaker 06

  And also, of course, uh, uh, la- last night, I attend the uh, relevant reception. The US Embassy hold a reception welcoming the new deputy head of the mission. Hmm. Mister Greg, and and he actually made an excellent speech there. He said, uh, China and US relation now, rather than in the past, I mean, you know, I I know that in the past, we had a lot of strategic rivalry. But the new head of a, a new deputy head of the US mission here in China and said, now we should put strategic stability. He's not talking about strategic arriving, so it's the strategic stability. Uh, you maintain the US-China relation and Secretary Rubio, uh, also said that in July.

• 9:23Speaker 06

  So it's very encouraging to see a thing going on, but that also shows how busy we are. Meeting all the peoples and talking to all the parties and and business too.

• 9:32Joe Weisenthal?

  I get that various people might describe an ambition for stability. It does not typically feel like it when I read the headlines, that this is a stable relationship for various reasons, particularly the headlines that come out of the Trump administration, which strike me as volatile. Setting aside what you hear from officials, whether at the embassy or um, the State Department, does it feel like that is the trajectory? Cause it certainly feels, especially over the last ten years, that when I was younger, the relationship felt something more like stability. And that these days, it's much more about rivalry and anxiety about potential conflict.

• 10:12Speaker 06

  That's right. I I agree with you. I think that basically because of uh, uh, this deterioration since the first Trump administration in the twenty seventeen. Uh, and now, eight years later, the the region does really go down quite a lot already. And because in the twenty seventeen, the National Security Committee of US has put out a strategic report and calling China a strategic rivalry, number one, I mean, before Russia, actually. So so we see that since then, we had a trade war and a tariff war. But this second term, somehow, we, I felt, uh, well, in China, uh, it it would more, uh, you know, getting used to this kind of a tariff, uh, trade war.

• 10:56Speaker 06

  And China is also better prepared than the other countries, because we already experienced the, in the first Trump administration. Hmm. Uh. So now I think also China economy is is is second only to the US. The two countries have too much independence among each other and so. You know, because geopolitically, we are really looking very bad. And then I think the consensus on both governments is that we need to look for some stability. Because we can't change each other, we cannot wipe, you know, delete each other, we we have to. Coexist peacefully. And that's probably the conclusion we're we're getting there. And so we have to. Uh. Seek a a common ground and coexist. Uh. Even we are having a lot of different views and ideas.

• 11:39Tracy Alloway?

  Um. So you mentioned just then the idea of the world's two biggest economies being. More dependent on each other, um perhaps less so nowadays, but. Over, I guess, the decades of the early two thousands, um certainly they grew more dependent on each other because of globalization. And this is something that I wanted to ask you, which is. What exactly is China's definition or understanding of globalization? And I ask this because I think in the West. It's sort of generally thought of as this process of more countries trading with each other and again, becoming more economically dependent on each other. But there's also this sort of social element that's also in there.

• 12:21Tracy Alloway?

  Because I think the assumption was always that as countries trade more with each other. They're going to start sharing, you know, values, um whether those are political or social. And I'm curious if globalization is thought of the same way in China.

• 12:37Speaker 06

  Well, I think that uh uh in China, because it was a late comer, you know, uh. Uh. For example, you see the globalization. In the nineteenth century, which is, uh, uh, you know, uh. Britain re-invented the steam power that led the industrial revolution in nineteenth century. And twentieth century, American invented, uh, you know, internet computers and and digital and. US has led in the twentieth century. I think twenty first century China is is also, uh, you know, coming up now, for example, on green power. China is leading on EVs, on on the solar panels and and also the wind power and all the same.

• 13:17Speaker 06

  But in the globalization concept in the Chinese mind, it's really more referred to the economic globalization. Because that's the benefit they're getting substantially. For example, eight hundred million people has been lifted out of poverty since China embraced opening up, basically embraced the globalization. And then you can see China now is the largest trading nation, or major trading nation with one hundred fifty seven countries around the world. And also furthermore, China is have, since the opening up in the last forty seven years, China has about almost ten million students study abroad, I mean, almost half of that in the United States.

• 13:58Speaker 06

  So that means globalization, I think there's a flow of people, flow of talent, a flow of goods, you know, interconnected connectivities, a fast, you know, stock market exchange, listed with each other. And also business doing, you know, there are seventy thousand US company operating in China and generating seven hundred billion revenues here in China. And also, you know, Apple make eighty, ninety percent of iPhone in China, and Tesla make fifty percent of its EV cars in China, and Walmart purchase about sixty percent of its supplies from China. So I think that's probably the globalization China felt the substantial benefit,

• 14:41Speaker 06

  probably for both Chinese and also Americans consumers. They are less ideological, but they're more probably on economic sense that globalization is really bringing them a lot of good and benefit. For example, since China joined WTO in twenty eleven, China's GDP has gone up thirteen, fourteen times. So that really, I think, in the minds of Chinese when they talk about globalization, they're really talking about joining economic globalization, rather than the secure, global securalization. They don't want to see the Oscars, they don't want to see the quad, they don't want to see Camp David, Korea, Japan, and all those security, or NATO move into Asia, that kind of militarized globalization, they want to see more economic globalization.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  What's next for virtual assets? I'm Jacob Rees, host of Economy Scale, a series exploring growth in key global sectors. And this episode, we're diving into the digital forces shaping finance. Sean McHugh from Dubai-based Virtual Assets Regulatory Authority has this to say.

• 15:58Speaker 07

  We're seeing a lot of institutional players come in, digital asset dedicated hedge funds, high frequency traders and that sort of thing, and folks who service institutional clients.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  As more capital enters the market, adaptive regulation is likely to become increasingly key. Rees-Merritt of Ripple says.

• 16:14Speaker 07

  A lot of regulators globally would like to keep the industry at arm's length. That's the opposite here. I think also what you'll find is that regulation and frameworks can come out, but some of them are maybe a slight iteration on some 80-year-old policy and not actually in line with what the technology can do and offer. And again, that's very different in Dubai.

• 16:33Speaker 00

  Listen to the full episode wherever you get your podcasts. This series is brought to you by Bloomberg Media Studios and the Dubai Department of Economy and Tourism.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute, brought to you by ChatGPT. I'm Carol Muster. Getting hired at SpaceX requires exceptional ability and may include having Elon Musk review a candidate's resume. So writes Bloomberg Businessweek's Lauren Grush. She reports that the company culture is defined by Musk and job candidates must understand that a commitment to SpaceX means adhering to this culture and exhibiting loyalty to Elon Musk. To get hired, candidates must demonstrate their achievements from past jobs and hands-on experience matters more to recruiters than advanced degrees, with the company looking for people with raw innate intelligence. A spokesperson for SpaceX didn't respond to a request for comment on its recruiting

• 17:26Speaker 01

  and hiring practices, but according to recruiters, advisors and those who've interviewed for jobs there, it's the space exploration dream that draws people to the company and Musk invokes that dream regularly to remind workers why they're there. Prospective hires are told that the job will require stamina, including in job ads. That candidates quote must be willing to work extended hours and weekends as needed. One major perk for all that hard work employees access to equity, either the right to buy shares or payment in the form of restricted stock units that vest over time. That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Get started at ChatGPT.com.

• 18:07Joe Weisenthal?

  I'm a huge personal beneficiary of these students abroad living in the East Village, where there's been an absolute explosion of amazing Chinese restaurants in my neighborhood of New York City, because there are so many students there. So I'm personally very invested in this trend continuing. But let's talk a little bit more about the security angle. You've actually written somewhat recently that China could play some role in the eventual hopeful end of Russia's war with Ukraine. But we don't tend to associate the Chinese government with playing an active role in global conflicts not directly near the borders, including Israel and Gaza, which we should talk about too. But when it comes to something, you know, when it comes to the Russia-Ukraine war,

• 18:52Joe Weisenthal?

  that tends to be focused on the Europeans, the role that US will play. Is there going to be a point in the near future? Or is there something we're missing where China sees this conflict that is far from its direct borders and wants to play a more activist role in bringing peace? Or is this something that is only associated with the sort of American-style, Western-led style of globalization?

• 19:17Speaker 06

  Well, I think that's probably now the world is, I mean, I was at Munich Security Conference kickoff meeting Berlin early this year with the chairman of Munich Security Conference. They issued a report. I was discussing on that report. They called it multipolarity. So we're getting into multipolar war now. I mean, China's suddenly become one polar of this multipolar war. And then you can see what happened in the Russian-Ukraine war there. It's getting nowhere. We had Alaska summit. That's why I published an op-ed on the foreign policy two days before the Alaska summit. Suggest that uh if you as the Defense Secretary, I heard him saying at the Munich Security Conference.

• 20:00Speaker 06

  That they want the peacemaking with troops coming from European countries and non-European countries. So what be by non-European countries, so I think that countries could be these BRICS countries. From uh China, India, Brazil, you know, South Africa or Turkey, whatever. BRICS countries, but basically again, you see that when Trump actually after Alaska talking to G seven at White House. Putin actually talked to to President Xi before his Alaska and talked to Lula, talked to Moody. And talked to the President of South Africa after the Alaska, so. I think that I I recently see Macron proposing that let's have twenty six European countries troops placed into Ukraine.

• 20:44Speaker 06

  But that get very strong reaction from Russia. That Putin said, okay, if that is the case, then we regard it as as a NATO violation or something. So we see that the excuse for Putin to start a war is because NATO troops are approaching uh Russian border. I mean, after three and a half years fighting, you have a NATO European troops there again, I mean, he will not probably ending that war easily, so. I think a more extra guarantee for this peacemaking, in addition to NATO, EU and and also US. Let's get China, India, Brazil, those largest buyers of of Russian energy product and and what else. Is really a extra safekeeping for the for the border.

• 21:25Speaker 06

  And then by having a Chinese peacekeeping force there, it will really, uh you know, make you know, make Russia difficult to violate that peace border. Because you know China has a lot of influence on Russia, same for India, same for Brazil. So so I think that uh we are in the risk uh this we're stuck in this, you know, Trump says, you know, he started sanctioning again. You're not going anywhere, but I think by adding the China BRICS element, we probably see a more secure peace that's going to happen.

• 21:56Tracy Alloway?

  What does China actually think its role in the world should be? And we talked about its role economically and the idea of globalization. But setting aside economies when it comes to geopolitical security, what exactly does China want to be?

• 22:14Speaker 06

  Yes, well, thank you. I think, but basically, China is a large country, of course, but it's basically agriculture, culture. You know, it's basically, you have a 5,000 years history. I interrupt the civilization. It's based on agriculture, economy. The farmers cultivate along the Yangtze River and the Yellow River. And Confucius said, if your parent alive, don't travel far away. And then you can only cultivate the land for seasons, that they can grow enough vegetables and wheat and grain to feed yourself. So it's really that kind of a culture cultivated the culture of China. And they are not really a nation on horses or like Mongolias.

• 22:55Speaker 06

  They're going to have expeditions or going to have a colonize any places. In the Middle East, there was a marshal called Zheng He, had a big expedition trips beyond almost to Africa. Also, you know, ASEAN countries, Southeast Asia. They never, they never stayed anywhere. They never occupy any places. They all returned seven times. It was even earlier than Colombia. So you see, that is really the culture China has. Until now, for the last 40 years, China hasn't started any wars, send any soldier anywhere or colonize any place or invaded any other country. So I think geopolitically, we had this big parade on September 3rd to commemorate the Second World War. But I think China has produced enough deterrence

• 23:39Speaker 06

  so that, you know, probably if they are in any hot conflict, they have enough defenses to deter in that. So if we can not have a nuclear or hot war to mutually assure destruction, then the only thing remain is peaceful competition on economy, on soft power, on culture, on people-to-person exchanges. So I think China wants to really see. Let's have a level playing field and let's really compete on economic. China now is having seventy percent of global speed railway, sixty percent of five G networks of the world. Out of the ten largest container ports, several of them in China. China also has thirteen million college graduates every year.

• 24:25Speaker 06

  And you know, they have a lot of things uh uh that they are doing on on their own now. And also on on the energy installation. Now their electricity consumption is two point five times of US, three times of Europe now. And in terms of green power, China has produced fifteen, sixteen million EV cars. Total number will be thirty million. And they have sixteen million charge stations in China everywhere. You know, very convenient to charge your EV car now. So so I think, you know, they want to probably compete in those areas rather than geopolitically. So I think maybe if China can play some, maintain some peacekeeping would be great. Because China is the largest, the peacekeeping budget contributor to the UN.

• 25:06Speaker 06

  China is the largest peacekeeping sending force among the P five member countries. So so China can do more peacekeeping and also economically. You know, China launched the many initiative, Belt and Road Initiative. China just did SO summit in Tianjin, where they established SO Bank. They have a BRICS Bank, a new development bank. So they're doing all this kind of economic stuff. Uh I think that's how they view the world should be intertwined, the more economically, business wise. Uh rather than we are really divided according to the ideological. Uh divided according to democracy versus autocracy. And divided by, you know, this this east or west. So there's many things I think China is is thinking a little differently.

• 25:50Joe Weisenthal?

  You mentioned the United Nations and there's sort of this question about the relevance or the vitality of a lot of these Western developed multilateral organizations, WTO being among them. But UN specifically, in your vision, maybe it's China's vision or maybe there's a distinct. Is it important to breathe new life into these organizations? Or is there a new set of organizations, including some of the ones that China has set up itself? Whether it's the BRI, whether we're talking about the BRICS, whether we're talking about some of these others. Is the future more, okay, if we're going to have this sort of new style of globalization,

• 26:29Joe Weisenthal?

  we actually genuinely need new organizations rather than the husks of the organizations that were sort of built out of the Western liberal order?

• 26:39Speaker 06

  Absolutely. I think that's quite true. I have recently wrote a book about my dialogue with Graham Allison, the founding dean of Harvard Kennedy School, which has become a very good seller in China now, also English wise. Basically, we find that in our dialogue, we talk about US-China relations as conjunct twins. You know, we cannot separate each other. You know, if we want to separate each other, we end up damaging ourselves. So that's the given. So we should avoid this heat trap that Graham Allison famously defined. But also on the other hand, we should also avoid the Kinderberg trap, which means that when a new rising power is starting to catching up with existing number one power,

• 27:23Speaker 06

  there's a vacuum in the global public goods, like when US was taking place, UK. There's a lot of missing linking points. You know, we got a big recession in the 1930s and things like that. So China actually is, US is now put a bit back on its policy now. It's become a mega, you know, make me first, make me great again. And rather than, there's no country really is looking at the global public goods. So that's what China is now. China has not backed on the climate change agreement. China strongly support that. And China has developed a very climate friendly environment now. And we'll reach carbon neutral and carbon peak ahead of time.

• 28:05Joe Weisenthal?

  But just to be clear, these legacy organizations specifically, like the UN, does China feel like these are?

• 28:13Joe Weisenthal?

  Are there bets that China is intends to make that these are going to be important institutions? Or are they fading like many legacy institutions? And that the sort of new more stable order that you may envision, does it have to be with a fresh set of multilateral international organizations?

• 28:30Speaker 06

  No, I think China is a is a strong support of existing US system. And as President Xi just recently proposed the Global Governance Initiative. I mean, on five point, two or three point, he was emphasized the UN, principle of UN, Charter of UN. And also, we can help to enhance, improve and make it better. But but we should not just restart. But but on the other hand, we see UN also getting quite marginalized and there's a weakening. And for example, China becoming the second largest donor to the UN budget now, close to US, almost no difference now. And also, when US pulling out of WHO, China committed 500 million US dollars to WHO.

• 29:13Speaker 06

  And when, you know, WHO is marginalized, China is working with Europeans to do that. But furthermore, I think China is still the only public big country. One of the largest countries is still proposing economic cooperation, like like a Belt and Road Initiative. For the last 12, 13 years, China invested over 1 trillion US dollars for 3,000 projects. And also furthermore, China has started China Africa Economic Summit, China Latin American Economic Summit, China ASEAN Economic Summit, and China Central Asia and China Arab Economic Summit. So it's all economy related. And furthermore, and while President Trump is raising 100 some country tariff,

• 29:52Speaker 06

  China announced they're going to reduce the tariff of 53 least developing country tariff zero for coming to China. So you can see the contrast there. So I think China is really providing enough public goods to fill some of the vacuum. US is backing off on development, on the global south and on the US system. You know, China is, while US is pulling out the UNESCO, China is also big supporter of UNESCO and so on and so forth. So I think China is doing a lot of that kind of activities now.

• 30:22Tracy Alloway?

  When it comes to US-China relations, you know, you mentioned that your book was selling well in China. I'm really curious, what is the biggest misunderstanding or the biggest concern that you hear from Chinese people on the ground when it comes to US policy? And I realize it's a little bit unfair, we're treating you as a spokesman for an entire country and China. We really don't intend to do that. We don't intend to do that. But I'd be curious, like, what sort of questions do you get on a daily basis from the average Chinese person about America and what it's doing?

• 30:58Speaker 06

  Well, I think the biggest throwing point, basically, that bothers the ordinary Chinese that we see the US, you know, navies coming to Chinese Taiwan Street or South China Sea or quite often we see, you know, airplane patrol in this part of the world. We never see Chinese aircraft or navy go to Hawaii or go to Caribbean, you know, we never see that. But we see the US military presence very strong. We have the 40,000 US military personnel in South Korea, just neighboring China. And another, I don't know how many,

• 31:39Speaker 06

  you know, it's quite 30, 40,000 in Japan. And we have now in Philippine, and then they have also missiles, mid-range missiles placed there. And also, they are going to place new missiles in Japan now and and South Korea. So those things actually bother, because because China felt, you know, Taiwan is part of China. And certainly, the people in the US say, oh, China is a democracy, we have to defend that. But China has a has a Chinese-style democracy, meritocracy. It also works perfect, you know, not perfect, but at least work well for this most populous country in the world. So I think, you know, we all have a different governing style. But just because our governing style is with you, and then that's why you need to, because Taiwan, because the reason for protecting

• 32:23Speaker 06

  Taiwan is Taiwan is a democracy, then we have to protect that. But I think, you know, China can also absorbing that. And, you know, China promised Taiwan, you know, no Taxes to be given uh to federal government, lot of autonomy. And China announced that Taiwan Taiwanese will be free to work in the mainland. You know visa needed, no anything needed. We are already two million Taiwanese working in mainland. And there's half a million husband, wife married across the street. And then before Taiwan, uh you know former president of Taiwan. You know, there's six million mainland flooded Taiwan with with with tourism, sending the money, spending restaurant, hotels. You know, there there was almost in in integrated already. If not for the foreign interference.

• 33:08Speaker 06

  So I I think the Chinese say, okay, please, maybe just let us you know peacefully you you you you unified like. Like Germany, you had the uh you know, East Germany, West Germany unified and and let's also hope. Uh North Korea, South Korea unified. So basically, uh they were really looking for less uh interference on that. And so I think that would be greatly improving the region because. In the communique that established three communique China, US have, it says very clear. US will not maintain, you know, will just maintain normal time, no official ties. But then we see US officials, a parliament manager Nancy Pelosi keep visiting Taiwan. Or Taiwanese leaders coming uh to the visiting US. So those probably bother a a bit of of ordinary Chinese. But of course, again.

• 33:53Speaker 06

  We understand, of course, US was was a world policeman for a long time. But now we see many countries uh also that the government model is not working perfectly. We have all the domestic issues. Uh US has it, European has it, all the countries has that. But China, on the other hand, seems uh maintain a a pretty good uh status. And let's also keep lifting people out of poverty. So I think they should give China some. Uh credit for doing that, uh rather than, okay, uh is is always shown uh in in front of China's uh. Doorsteps and you have US parade of military uh muscles all the time, you know. So that's a little bothering for the Chinese, basically.

• 34:34Joe Weisenthal?

  When you think about China's relationship with the other BRICS countries, with African countries, with the global south countries, so to speak, have you seen substantive changes in those relationships specifically since the wake of October 2023 and the start of the war on Gaza? And countries sort of rethinking, you know, has this prompted a concrete rethinking about, you know, you said the US was the global policeman, and a lot of people have perceived that. In the wake of this ongoing war, has there been a substantive change in the way countries want to have a relationship with China?

• 35:13Speaker 06

  Well, absolutely. You can, you know, this year was for the first time you see China ASEAN summit at the GCC. You know, Gulf countries all came to ASEAN. So you had the first China ASEAN GCC summit. And then you can see also the BRICS countries are expanding that you had, you know, UAE was there and there's a lot of, you know, Middle East countries are really coming to China. You have, you also have the Shanghai Cooperation Summit recently. You had the Turkey, you had the Iranian president. You have a lot of people from that region. So I think China's role does play because China, for example,

• 35:57Speaker 06

  a few years ago, China clinched a deal between Saudis and Iranians. Rather than, you know, we are seeing the current chaos going on. China also, of course, in the 14 different fractions of Palestinian group had the Beijing Palestinian declaration. And China could probably do more in making a peace, promoting peace between Israel and Palestinians. China also maintained good relations in the past with Israel. So I think that sooner or later, probably, those countries will realize that we cannot really let just what happened, the Gaza, the humanitarian crisis, the, you know, deaths of thousands of, tens of thousands of people, what happened, you're living on a daily basis. I mean, where is, where is the, where is the, you know,

• 36:41Speaker 06

  children are dying and all those things. So that kind of justice. Where is the justice now? So of course, there's, there's, there's always problem uh uh to start with. But I think we cannot because a two run doesn't make a right. I, I really think that we should continue to have this international moral power that United Nations Security Council should really exercise rather than, you know, be vetoed all the time. So I, I'm thinking, you know, China probably could play more role in the future. But that's, that's, that's some of this Ukraine crisis if the, if the BRICS country peacemaking can happen uh led by China. And I'm sure that model could be applied to other conflicts in other regions. China also trying to,

• 37:21Speaker 06

  you can see Prime Minister Moody and the Prime Minister of Pakistan was at the same table a few months after fighting in China. Uh we see Armenia and Azerbaijan president coming to SO summit in Tianjin as well. So probably China is, is uh is building up its mediating power and peacekeeping power uh as time goes on.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. I'm Carol Muster. Getting hired at SpaceX requires exceptional ability and may include having Elon Musk review a candidate's resume. So writes Bloomberg Business Week's Lauren Grush. She reports that the company culture is defined by Musk and job candidates must understand that a commitment to SpaceX means adhering to this culture and exhibiting loyalty to Elon Musk. To get hired, candidates must demonstrate their achievements from past jobs and hands-on experience matters more to recruiters than advanced degrees, with the company looking for people with raw innate intelligence. A spokesperson for SpaceX didn't respond to a request for comment on its recruiting and hiring practices.

• 38:42Speaker 01

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• 39:22Speaker 03

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• 39:43Speaker 01

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• 39:52Speaker 03

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• 40:35Tracy Alloway?

  Just going back to globalization for a second, I think everyone agrees, and you've already talked about this, that China has been a huge beneficiary from globalization over time. But I get the sense that there is still a feeling within China that some aspects of the global economic order or trade agreements are unfair to China. How do you sort of square that tension? And where do you think the concern or the worries over unfairness actually comes from? And by the way, I could ask this question to American officials as well. Like, the US is a massive beneficiary of the global economic order, and yet the Trump administration clearly feels very aggrieved about America's place in the world. But when it comes to China,

• 41:19Tracy Alloway?

  like, where does the sense of unfairness actually come from?

• 41:22Speaker 06

  Well, there's quite a few. Actually, uh, you see, uh, one of the things that uh, US was treating the pure deficit. As the only reason they start the tariff war. I was giving a talk just just last April, two two, a few months ago at the UN Security Council. Hmm. Where they called a special arena meeting in New York. Eighty countries represented by the UN participated, where I gave a speech there, I was saying that. For example, US only looking at the goods deficit, you know, merchandise deficit. But out of that deficit was maybe, you know, thirty, forty, fifty percent was produced by multinational, thirty percent by US. For example, out of the four hundred billion deficit, that Trump is levy on China, three hundred some billion deficit.

• 42:07Speaker 06

  He immediately waived the one hundred billion because a lot of the companies uh, are made goods in China. Apple has to source their iPhone from India, but it's not enough. Uh, so they have to lift uh, uh, that sanctions uh, on on those deficit. Anyway, and there's a lot of inter time, but also US enjoying one trillion dollar trade surplus on the service trade. They are not counting that. And also the calculation about China's export. For example, every, every phone we made in China, iPhone made here, China probably made the labor cost. You know, eighty percent was made by multinationals, even cars the same, so. Why you just purely looking at the trade deficit and numbers? A lot of money was not made in China, was made by international multinational companies.

• 42:51Speaker 06

  And they're not sending back to the country, so that's why I I agree with President Trump. To have more investment back to US because multinational made a lot of money uh, in China and elsewhere. But they should really uh, investment back uh, rather than putting the tax havens. So that's why the global minimum tax proposed by OECD has agreed by over hundred some countries. But it's not practiced uh, uh, yet on that now, so that's one aspect. The other aspect I could say is the. For example, US uh, is uh, uh, starting these sanctions on China, for example, forbidden the. Use selling the chips to China. Mm hmm. So that that is really and and built, and also they called the in the Trump administration, you know. High fence, small yard and all those things.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  And there is one thousand five hundred Chinese companies on the US anti the list. I mean, maybe China has a dozen or two dozen of US company, but compared with magnitude of US is too much. Too many over the secure, overuse of the security reasons. To really restrict all the Chinese companies on that. So that's really become a problem and so that's why China started to say, okay. If chips can be the do use goods, right, you can say, okay, can be used for security or military. Same is true for rare earths, right, rare earths can be what making for airplanes, tank, tanks, everything. So when China started a little bit on that, then US starting to relax on the sale of the chips now uh uh quite a bit.

• 44:16Speaker 06

  So you can see, uh, you know, morally, uh, it's the same reason. If US doing things in the first term, China didn't respond like that, but now China starting to respond like that. So I think that's why we see quite a few agreement made by between US and Chinese officials. Because China is much resilient now, much stronger. And also US has realized if they really sanction so hard on China. The Christmas shopping season will coming up, their shelves will be empty and we could, you know, American consumer will suffer and they're not going to hurt the Trump space. And that's why we keep extending, uh, they have, it seems more, uh. They talk to each other more more friendly than talk to India, Brazil and others.

• 44:56Speaker 06

  So I think they they probably they realize that two largest economy, they can really agonize each other, they have to find a way to come out.

• 45:02Tracy Alloway?

  The uh, the Christmas shopping season is my personal Super Bowl.

• 45:06Joe Weisenthal?

  Yes, earlier this year, actually not that long ago, Bloomberg reported, so therefore it's absolutely true. Uh, it says, quote, officials in Beijing verbally encouraged regulatory agencies and local governments to curb technology transfers and equipment exports to India and Southeast Asia. And there were some stories about Foxconn engineers, for example, who may have been part of some sort of moving the supply chain of those Apple iPhones that you meant. Part of the final assembly perhaps to India and this report that Chinese officials may have been pushing back against it.

• 45:41Joe Weisenthal?

  I get like rhetorically the existing system where American companies do a lot of manufacturing or in China has been incredibly beneficial. Is China totally comfortable with the fact that as part of this globalization, some of this manufacturing may end up leaving or as you know, US seeks to diversify its sources? Is China comfortable with this?

• 46:03Speaker 06

  China's, I think it's pretty comfortable now. That's why China is more confident. For example, 2019, when before COVID, US is largest trading partner of China. And now US falling to the third place or even fourth place now because ASEAN become the largest place of trading partner of China since the ASEAN Regional Comprehensive Partnership Agreement. And then that is actually happening because, you know, Vietnam become China's fourth largest trading partner now and Indonesia, Malaysia are now expanded to Latin American, you know, most Latin American countries, China is their largest trading partner. And also with Africa, now China lifted all the tariff from African countries products to come to China, you will see a flood of African products coming to China.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  So, so I think, you know, that probably China doesn't mind. There's a low, maybe a little bit labor intensive because the labor, average labor workforce, migrant workers ages 43 years old, it's getting old, China. So there's a lot of a shoemaking or, you know, low, low income labor cost jobs went to Vietnam, went to ASEAN, China really doesn't mind. And China now is focused on the high end now. For example, China is focused on the green power transition.

• 47:16Joe Weisenthal?

  So there's no curbs, like there's no curbs as far as like from your perspective, there's no impulse of the government to curb moving some of these more advanced things? Again, talk about iPhones and such to a country like India?

• 47:30Speaker 06

  Not really. I think China is doing, you know, encouraging the investment. For example, BYD or, you know, CATL and I know quite a few companies do very bullish investing overseas. There may be sensitive military or rare stuff that China may be questioning a bit, but, but on the general, I think things are still quite open.

• 47:50Tracy Alloway?

  Is there an argument to be made that China should perhaps open its own economy further if, you know, it actually desires more economic integration with the rest of the world? Because we're talking about globalization still, but China still has capital controls, still has currency controls, still has some restrictions on investment and things like that. Should it be more open?

• 48:14Speaker 06

  Absolutely. I agree with you. I think China should be more open. And that's why we've been, that's our think tank role to promote that. For example, we promote people promoting the visa. Now China has issued the, unilaterally issued the visa for forty some countries, now European countries, Australia, Japan, South Korea. I urge also you recommend China to policymakers to open visa for US citizens, for Canadian citizens coming to China free. But also on the trade policy, I think there should be more liberalization continuously. I know that the government is looking at that and the fifteen five years plan will probably be even more open. Of course, there's always rooms to improve. I totally agree.

• 48:56Speaker 06

  And they have opened a financial sector quite a long time ago. And as you say, maybe currency, they should be more convertible. And also on the, on the investment in the culture, in the, in the, in the, you know, other areas, pharmaceutical and now China also welcome foreign university come to China to open their branches and doing. I'm on the board of Duke, Queensland University in China, which is John Vang between Duke University and Wuhan University. You know, we have so many international student there and NYU Shanghai is operating very well. So we hope to have more global exchanges. I agree with you, you know, there's, there's still more rooms.

• 49:39Speaker 06

  That's why I think this kind of talk between China and US, now we see TikTok is maybe almost maybe have a deal there and it's great. So we, this is the start, we should continuously talk and engage and reach agreement and open up further to accommodate each other.

• 49:55Tracy Alloway?

  First comes diplomacy through dance videos, Joe, and then comes an easing of Currency restrictions.

• 50:02Joe Weisenthal?

  That will podcast recordings have to be.

• 50:04Tracy Alloway?

  That's right.

• 50:04Joe Weisenthal?

  And just to be clear, you know, obviously, we don't expect you to be the representative of the entire Chinese perspective. Tracy and I need to establish that we do not represent the entire United States and the questions that we have. You mentioned the goods trade deficit, and of course, one of the things is, you know, obviously, China has gotten much richer. Thanks to the booming industrial sector, the US has benefited from a lot of less expensive, more sophisticated goods that it buys. But there is this source of concern, and I say this in a couple of weeks after that military parade. There is a source of concern that without a robust American manufacturing capacity, that we can no longer be a powerful military country as well.

• 50:45Joe Weisenthal?

  And I know I do not believe it is China's role to sort of help the US figure out its industrial capacity questions. Nonetheless, from the perspective, does the US concern make sense to you? Perhaps there are things that seem unfair, certain technology transfer restrictions seem counter to the spirit of globalization, et cetera. But is the US fundamentally wrong to be concerned that as more and more of the world's share, however you want to measure it, of manufacturing of advanced goods somehow becomes centered around China? That that long term weakens the national security position of the United States?

• 51:24Speaker 06

  Well, I think we are now in a more intertwined world. And there's a lot, there's quite a bit of a competitive advantage, like David Ricardo mentioned many years ago. So what I think US is still leading, the US is very good at inventing innovation. You see Silicon Valley, you see AI. You know, by the way, Jason Huang said the half of the AI talents coming from China, you know, US is a big harvest of Chinese talent too. And that's why I'm saying several million Chinese still went to the United States. I mean, probably half of them returned, still have remain, that greatly benefited the US economy.

• 52:05Speaker 06

  So what I think that that is really, US is good doing zero to one, maybe China is good. That's one to one hundred. So, all the world one hundred university, top fifty still in the United States. The reason China did all this manufacturing, because as I mentioned, China has seventy percent of the global speed railway, sixty percent of the global five G networks.

• 52:26Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 06

  Ten largest container ports, seven of them, they have the infrastructure to do that. So this is a value chain, supply chain for the world, not for China. So made in China is made for the world. I think US only worry about if they can make, you cannot make a big ships.

• 52:39Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  Or aircraft. Now they go to South Korea to do that now.

• 52:43Joe Weisenthal?

  Right.

• 52:43Speaker 06

  So they still find a way to do that. But I don't think that you have to depend totally on the manufacturing. So if we are living in the pre, you know, trade war era, you know, where we buy so much chips from US. China, seventy percent of China energy depends on import. China spend more money buying the chips than China importing energy. So now you are saying they are not selling to China. Then the US company losing the big profit center and then they are really reduce their R and D budget. And China is forced to do reinvent well and there is a lot of waste there. So we see this separation is really no good. All on the security reasons, we should not over securitize.

• 53:26Speaker 06

  And we should really display our own, each other's competitive advantage.

• 53:30Joe Weisenthal?

  I want to ask one more question about security philosophy. Obviously, when Russia invaded Ukraine, the US imposed all kinds of sanctions on Russia and tried to constrain its ability to trade at all or make any money. Going back to Israel's war in Gaza, and you expressed the horror that you see from that and the sort of response to that. But China still trades with Israel as the US does. In the future, in a sort of different global world order, would it ever be part of China's diplomatic arsenal to take a more heavy hand in some of these conflicts and say, oh, we're not going to trade you. We're not going to sell you advanced technology that you need to run your economy or run your military, et cetera.

• 54:13Joe Weisenthal?

  Because so far, despite the sort of concerns or the response, there hasn't been any change in the trading relationship. Could it ever get to that point where China views its sort of diplomatic commercial power that way in conflicts that it's not directly involved in?

• 54:29Speaker 06

  Well, I think China certainly would like to do more, you know, like what is happening on the WHO, China has already fulfilled its obligations too. I, I think the key is really we need to restore the UN authority and principle, particularly the US Security Council, maybe we should also reform that too. Maybe we should add G20 members, other 16 G20 members as a social permanent member of UN. And, and we should really not let unilateral, single veto be abused. For, for example, since the founding of UN, Russia abused, used the veto 100 some times, 20, 40 times, US 100 times, China 20 times.

• 55:12Speaker 06

  We, we, we need to really control that. So I think we reform UN to reflect this multipolar world. And in the future, if there's any other, there's any problem happen, let's send the UN peacekeeping force to do that. And so if the old security member have a big majority and general assembly have a big majority, we should make that happen. So I think reform this multipolar world, we also need to reform UN to reflect that because the world is no longer fits the, the superstructure does not fit the reality today now.

• 55:42Joe Weisenthal?

  All right, Henry Wang, founder and president for Center for China and Globalization. So fantastic to have you on the show. Can we do a live Odd Lots in Beijing with you at some point?

• 55:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, please. We welcome that.

• 55:54Joe Weisenthal?

  All right, we are gonna, as soon as, as soon as we get off this call, we are gonna begin the preparations to figure out how we're gonna make this happen. So great chatting you, with you. Thank you for staying up late in your time to talk with us and I hope to talk to you again soon.

• 56:08Tracy Alloway?

  Thank you.

• 56:09Speaker 06

  Thank you so much, both of you. Thank you so much.

• 56:24Joe Weisenthal?

  Tracy, I really enjoyed that conversation. It was interesting thinking about, you know, this idea that rhetorically, there are a lot of people on both sides of the aisle who say things like, oh, we need to get out of this sort of competition. Framework, et cetera.

• 56:40Tracy Alloway?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:40Joe Weisenthal?

  It doesn't really feel like anything is actually happening on that front.

• 56:43Tracy Alloway?

  Yes. And one thing that struck me from the conversation was, I guess, how economically oriented it feels like all of Chinese policy actually is. And I suppose maybe that gets back to this idea. This is an old idea now, but that social contract idea about the CCP. So as long as people feel that their lives are getting better.

• 57:04Joe Weisenthal?

  Right.

• 57:04Tracy Alloway?

  Then the CCP has strong support. I think the economic focus really came through in that conversation.

• 57:12Joe Weisenthal?

  I think, you know, obviously from the US perspective, there is this view that, you know, Henry used the word global policeman. And a lot of people would say, yes, absolutely. And that a big role of the US Navy specifically is enforcing the fact or freeing the world for trade.

• 57:33Tracy Alloway?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:34Joe Weisenthal?

  Right? That part of the reason that the world can trade freely.

• 57:37Tracy Alloway?

  That that's like a public good provided by the US.

• 57:40Joe Weisenthal?

  And Adam Posen has talked about this and others have talked about this idea that these things go hand in hand.

• 57:45Tracy Alloway?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:45Joe Weisenthal?

  And it's interesting because, so Henry talked about this impulse for continuation of global trade, including with the US, et cetera. There clearly, to my mind, seems to be less of an appetite from China to like, or it's not obvious that there is a.

• 58:03Tracy Alloway?

  To fill the gap, basically.

• 58:05Joe Weisenthal?

  Or that, you know, and I guess there's question like, does the world need such muscle to trade? Right? Does, could you have a world of trade where there is not one entity that has a truly global military footprint? I think these are really interesting questions. Henry, of course, talked about, especially in that last answer, re strengthening the UN, et cetera.

• 58:26Tracy Alloway?

  Restructuring.

• 58:27Joe Weisenthal?

  Restructuring the UN, exactly. It's not entirely obvious to me that these institutions, as they're constructed, can really be revived, even with lots of Chinese money going into them. I think that's still kind of TBD.

• 58:41Tracy Alloway?

  Well, I think this is it, right? Even if you restructured the Security Council so that, you know, you wouldn't have one powerful member. Vetoing stuff all the time. Even if people agreed to do things, what is the UN actually going to do? Right?

• 58:54Joe Weisenthal?

  Right. What is the UN actually going to do? I don't, we didn't get into it that much, but like the idea of a sort of more, I don't know, BRICS-composed peacekeeping force? I bet there are a lot of people in the US who would love that. They're like, yeah, let's have peace. Let's have a ceasefire.

• 59:08Tracy Alloway?

  Someone else take care of the peace.

• 59:09Joe Weisenthal?

  Yeah, let's have a ceasefire in Russia and Ukraine. And also, let's not have it be particularly dominated by Western peacekeepers shouldering that burden. I bet a lot of people in the US would love that. I would, you know, have more time. I would love to really explore like what the constraints on that actually happening are there. But I thought that was a very useful sort of overview of some of these questions from the Chinese perspective.

• 59:32Tracy Alloway?

  Absolutely. Don't explore the constraints, Joe. Just take credit for solving US-China tensions on the podcast.

• 59:38Joe Weisenthal?

  Okay.

• 59:38Tracy Alloway?

  In less than an hour. Shall we leave it there?

• 59:41Joe Weisenthal?

  Let's leave it there.

• 59:42Tracy Alloway?

  This has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alocke. You can follow me at Tracy Alocke.

• 59:47Joe Weisenthal?

  And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at the stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armin, Dashal Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. For more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com/oddlots. We have the daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all of these topics 24/7 in our Discord, discord.gg/oddlots.

• 1:00:09Tracy Alloway?

  And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you want us to go to Beijing and talk to more people on the ground, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

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