32: Privileged People, Leading Women Teams, Discipline Equals Financial Freedom, Does Micromanaging Ever Work?

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:04 - Loving and respecting privileged people who have less toughness and adversity in life. 0:09:41 - Thoughts on Enson Inoue BJJ Belt Demotion. 0:33:34 - Dealing with trainees saying they haven't been trained properly. 0:40:35 - Are there differences in leading women teams VS leading men teams? 0:46:15 - Using the "GOOD" philosophy while avoiding Pollyannaism. 1:00:15 - Favorite Podcasts and why. 1:28:01 - Discipline Equals Freedom in regards to financial life. 1:37:45 - Does micromanaging ever work? 1:43:16 - Keeping focus on the "long war." Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 32 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  And since Jocko Podcast number 31 went long with the very heavy and dark book, we decided to end that one and not do any Q and A, which means that today we have 100% Q and A for the troops. And obviously this comes from, the questions come from you all that are listening, mostly on Twitter and on Facebook is where I get these questions from. So thanks to everyone for submitting these questions so that we can answer them for you.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  Echo, good evening.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  All right. First question, I want to say I like this first question a lot.

• 1:04Jocko Willink?

  It's a good question.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  Echo approves of the first question.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  I approve most questions for sure. Okay, first question.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  How does one who grew up in the ghetto, quote unquote, involved with gangs, drugs, witnessing murders and all that good stuff, overcome that mentality where your guard is always up? Come from a family of immigrants and growing up really poor, we had to make a lot of sacrifices. And as I get older, I feel that in some of these ways, in some ways, this affects my daily life. I'm proud of my beginnings and I cherish my mistakes, but still even in my senior year in college, I feel some resentment towards these privileged kids who seem like they have it all. I really find it hard to get along with them because in a way I see them as weak because they haven't suffered through hard times or have

• 1:56Speaker 01

  to struggle as a minority. What should I do to learn to love them and respect them as equals?

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is, that is a good question. I definitely have seen, uh, seen that, seen people go through that mentality.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  Where they're, they're having that attitude. And I'll tell you, uh, when I was a kid, I actually, I had a girlfriend when I was a kid, this, this girl, and we know, and her friend was my friend as well. So we were all kind of friends. And one of the girls, one of the things that she said, which I thought was brilliant, and she said, uh, everybody has a hard luck story. Like, no matter, you go and talk to somebody, they had their struggle that they went to, went through. And you know, whether it was divorce, whether it was abuse, whether it was money struggles, whether there was fighting in the house, whether it was jail, whether there was drugs, whether it was alcoholic or workaholic or whatever, whatever

• 3:00Jocko Willink?

  situation you've been in, everybody's got a hard luck story or something that challenged them. And it might not be really obvious on the surface. I mean, you know, for instance, this question here, the, the fact, the way that the question is phrased, you can hear he's talking about the, the things that we, you know, he said, family of immigrants growing up really poor, we had to make a lot of sacrifices. Right? So, right there, right there, you can see that he's got a certain amount of familial pride. And he's talking about his family as we and a group of being together. And

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  you know, that might not be money, that might not be expensive clothes, but that's an incredibly powerful thing. It's, you're incredibly lucky to have that. Now you tell me who's, who's more, who has a tougher challenge? The person that grows up in a tight knit family where everyone sticks together and everyone makes sacrifices together? Or the kid who grows up, whose dad makes a ton of money, dad's never home. Dad chooses, literally chooses work over the family. And how does that affect the kid's personality? You know, I mean, the kids, kids can come from any background and end up in really tough situations with drugs, alcohol, addiction, whatever. That came from really good circumstances or really bad circumstances, it doesn't even matter.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  You can come from both. So. So that's part one. Part one is like, you know, you don't know what kind of struggles other people have been through. They might have been, they might had, they might be a twenty-two-year-old senior in college, driving a BMW that has more demons in their life than you do. So it's, it's a little bit arrogant to walk around and think that your demons are worse than anybody else's demons. You just don't, you just don't know what their demons are. Now, on top of that, if you just wanna look at like the privilege, the monetary side of it, I, I, I promise you that despite the fact that you grew up in a ghetto and you had, your family had to make sacrifices,

• 5:07Jocko Willink?

  there are people that you're the privileged kid. Cause you get some kid that grew up in South America, or some kid that grew up in Africa, that, you know, you think you had it tough, they didn't have a house. They, they got, you know, uh, political strife in their city, they watched their parents get killed, whatever. So you're a privileged person to somebody else. So let's keep that in mind as well. And once again, you don't know what that looks like. You don't know what kind of struggles people have been through. So, let's just try and,

• 5:43Jocko Willink?

  I'll use the term judge. Let's try and judge people not on what they are, but on who they are as a person. And, you know, for me, you, you know, you talked about the, the minority thing. It, to me, I don't care about race, color, creed. None of that stuff matters to me. I don't care about socio-economic background. None of that stuff matters to me. I don't judge you on that. You know why? Because in the military, in the SEAL teams, the, the, the good SEALs came from every background. Every one of those backgrounds. The bad SEALs came from every one of those backgrounds. There was, there was kids that grew up rich with a silver spoon in their mouth. They were awesome SEALs. There were kids that grew up in the ghetto and their parents were gang bangers, awesome SEALs.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  Same as reverse is true. There was kids that grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth and went to a private school, and they were horrible SEALs. And there was kids that grew up gang bangers and they were horrible SEALs. So it doesn't matter. What matters is not what you are, it's who you are as a person. So, I-

• 6:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm, I'm not gonna judge. And in fact, if there's, if I was to name some negative traits that do bother me, it's, one of them would be judging people based on, you know, stereotypes, judging people, judging the book by its cover. If you're doing that, that's a negative, you know, that is a weakness. So, so just check yourself and realize that you don't know what people's backgrounds are. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors. You don't know what tough situation people have been through. And judge them not based on that stuff. Just judge them on who they are as a person.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, fully in, in. I think this kind of helps. You know how, let's say like, uh, let's say you're in a boat, right? Like a rowboat. And you're all trying to get upstream and you have all different kinds of people. And then you have, you have weaker people and you have stronger people. And the strong person,

• 7:40Speaker 01

  put whether it's by his choice or not, he's strong, he can, you know, he's been working out, I don't know, he's in shape, he can row a lot. So he went through all this sacrifice. But at the end, he's a stronger person. So you can look at it in a way where you now have the power. So be responsible with your power, like to help. So you have to, it's like you have a bigger burden, but you have to embrace that, not burden, but you have a bigger workload. Because you're more prepared for it in life.

• 8:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and actually speaking of that, so now that means that you have the power to, to give people knowledge and perspective on what you've been through. And that's important. Now, there's two ways to do that. We talk about this all the time. If I go up to you, Echo, and I say, hey, you don't know what you're doing? Let me show you the correct way to film this. Let me show you the correct way to use this microphone. But you, how would you feel about that?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I don't know if I would like that.

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  No, no, of course you wouldn't. If I came up to you and said, listen, you don't know what it's like. Death struggle. Are you gonna be, are you gonna be open to hear what I'm about to say?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  No, you're not. No one is.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:46Jocko Willink?

  No one is. But if I said, "Hey, man, it's really good to meet you," oh, and then we start to develop a relationship. But I go, "You know, it's one thing that we gotta remember is what it's like for maybe some people, you know, when I was growing up, I had to deal with this." Oh, okay. Now your mind is open to it. You start learning. You start growing yourself. So by not being arrogant and by being humble and thinking that you have, you may have been through worse things for, than me, or whatever the case may be, we're, we're actually gonna make each other better. And that's the goal here.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:14Jocko Willink?

  So you just gotta stay humble on these things and, and it'll be, it'll, it'll work out better for you in the end. It will absolutely work out better for you in the end.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  Judge people by the content of their character, I believe, is a, a way of putting it that makes a lot of sense to me.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yep. Next question. Jaco and Echo, how do you guys feel about the Enson Inoue situation? Demoting yourself after time off the mat?

• 9:47Jocko Willink?

  So this was a pretty interesting question and it's, there's a guy named Enson Inoue, and he's a, he's a old school jujitsu guy, old school MMA guy. And he's a black belt in jujitsu, but he fought in UFC, he fought in Pride, he was the Shudo champion. He's just a, just a, a really old school kinda OG.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  From Hawaii, by the way.

• 10:16Jocko Willink?

  From Hawaii. And just a, just a really well-respected guy as a fighter. And a guy that, you know, his, he, he, he kind of had that warrior ethos that people talk about, you know, where he would say, "Look, I'm, I'm, I would rather die in this fight than lose," and, and he meant it. And so he's been, but he moved to Japan, he's of Japanese heritage, and he moved to Japan a long time ago. I mean, I wanna say 10 or maybe 15, maybe even longer.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think longer.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a long, a long time ago, he moved back to Japan. He's, he's, you know, that's where he's kinda built his life, is in Japan. And along the way, I think his last fight was... Maybe, maybe eight to 10 years ago was his last fight. And since then, you know, there was the, the horrible earthquake and the tsunami in Japan and he did work as sort of a, as sort of a charity to raise money and help out those victims. So that's what he's been focused on and he's been focused on, I guess his family and whatever else. But in that time, he, he, he strayed off the mats of justice.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  He stopped the training and, and so, you know, he, he had other things going on in his life and he stopped training. I don't recommend anybody stop training and, um, but for whatever reason, he, he stopped training and he stopped training and I, I saw a little interview with him as he was talking about this. He stopped training for like 10 years, 10 years of no, and he, he said no training. He just was stopped training. And now, oh, you know, he's, cause he's a jujitsu guy. Eventually jujitsu gets back in your brain and he started getting back on the mats. And when he got back on the mats, he felt that he didn't deserve to be a black belt anymore.

• 12:14Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't just because he was, his timing was off or he was out of condition. He felt like jujitsu had, had changed and he's right. In the last 10 years, jujitsu has changed a lot. And you know what? Yesterday, jujitsu changed a lot and the day before, I mean, jujitsu changes every day. Every day it changes. I'm, I'm, I'm shocked. Uh, Dean will come up with some new thing. Dean's very, very good at coming up with new things. And he comes up with a new thing, like something I, I, neither one of us had thought of. He probably does that once or twice a month. He comes up with this new thing. I might do it once every three to six months, maybe.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  Or I go, okay, I found something new and I'm all excited and Dean goes, well, no, just put your hips over there and then it'll be, so.

• 13:04Jocko Willink?

  It's it's just one of those things that it changes. And so Ensign got on the mat again and said, oh, I don't I don't think I deserve to be a black belt. Right now. And so he demoted himself back to the purple belch. And.

• 13:19Jocko Willink?

  So people say the question is, how do I feel about it? Oh, and by the way, since this question got asked. He actually re-promoted himself back to black belch.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  So and how did that go down? That was John, he talked to his, his, his instructor that gave him the black belt, right? John Lewis?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  From what I understand, I didn't read as much into that part of it. I was, I was mainly just reading other people's um takes on it, you know, like their reaction, but.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  Which didn't go to the source material? Always go to the source material.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  About the concept.

• 13:50Jocko Willink?

  Always go to the source material.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Anyway, um, I'm not.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  But he had a conversation with John Lewis. And John Lewis said, what? What was the overall? Do you know what he said? Well, whatever he said, I, I did go to the source material.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  And but I don't want to quote it exactly, but John Lewis basically said, look. You deserved a black belt. Oh, and you know what he said? He said, look, someone that's a doctor that became a doctor. And then that's not practicing, but then they want to get back in the field. They don't not become a doctor.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  They just go and learn the new techniques and get refreshed. They don't have to take their doctor tag off their door. He said, you're a doctor of jujitsu. You just got to get refreshed with the new techniques and get back into it. And Ensign said, okay, you know, he, he agreed with it and he promoted himself back to black belt. So. You know, again, I think from my, from my perspective. I say good for him. I think both those actions I agree with. I think it's actually pretty cool that he demoted himself. And. And said, you know what? I don't, I don't, I haven't been in the game. I got out of the game.

• 15:02Jocko Willink?

  And I don't deserve to be a black belt right now. So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put it on. I'm disgracing the black belt. But I also see the mind flip of, hey, you know what? I fought and trained for a giant portion of my life and I have innate knowledge. That got me the black belt. And now I need to get back in the game, but I'm still a black belt. I, I, I really respect Ensign. I think he's a, I think he's a guy with a lot of heart. And pride. And I respect his decision. I think it's pretty simple from my perspective.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. It, that was, man, it's one of those things where. When you hear someone make a good point about one side of, of the whole deal. You're like, oh yeah, that's true. And then you see someone else making, when I saw it, I was like, dang, that is good. He, that is so humble and he, and he's really keeping it real. He's like, I'm not a black belt. I'm going to, I think I'm a purple belt. There, here's where I am. And then, um, Chris Houter, who's, um, he's, you know, one of the original OG guys and brother guys, smart. Um, he, he said essentially kind of the same thing as, as John Lewis.

• 16:10Jocko Willink?

  What did he say?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  It's kind of the same thing where you, you know, jujitsu changes. Jujitsu be changing whether you're doing it or not.

• 16:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  And you earned it. You're the black belt. You know, your instructors, um, you know, recognize you as a black belt. You are a black belt. Regardless. And just because you jumped back on the wave. Of jujitsu and maybe weren't as good as, at surfing, you know, you're still, you're still that, that black belt. Um, you just gotta like, how you said, you just gotta get refreshed with all the new techniques if you want to, you know, be up to speed. And he said it way more eloquently than that, obviously, but man, reading, reading now is like, dang, he's right, man. But, but he did say that it's like, it's kind of like false humility, which, um. I, I dig pretty much everything Chris Hutter has to say about jujitsu, but I couldn't really get there as far as me feeling that it was false in any way.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  Nah, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think so either.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel that. Um, you know, whether or not I understood exactly what, what Chris was saying.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess I could see what he's saying. Where he could come to that conclusion a little bit, but I don't, I don't agree with that piece of it. I don't, because to me, it's actually, hey, look, guys, I don't think there's anything false about saying, hey, I am not good enough to be a black belt right now, so therefore I'm putting on, I think I'm about purple belt level. I know what it feels like to be a black belt and I don't feel like one right now.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:29Jocko Willink?

  I think that makes sense.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it does to me too, and, and, but ultimately, I think it's it's however you, and I think your instructors have a lot to do with it as well. How, however you want to see it, you know, I mean, I, because there is a lot to be said for someone who will do that. Because a lot of guys, they get their black belt and they're gone. And they'll be like, hey, and some guys do it if they get their brown belt.

• 17:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Brown belt, I'm gone, I'm a brown belt.

• 17:55Jocko Willink?

  It does happen sometimes, but it shouldn't happen at all.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  But.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  Guys get their black belt and then stop training.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Right, I know, a few guys like that, but you know, so it's like, hey, I got my black belt. And I'm not saying they chose to do that.

• 18:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the thing that's weird about that, the thing that makes that surprising is that it takes a lot of dedication to get your black belt. And the only way you can have that much dedication is if you actually enjoy training jujitsu. And if you don't enjoy training jujitsu, then if you go get your black belt, why would you stop training? That doesn't make sense to me. It's kind of like the, the, the fact that people talk about going through SEAL training. And they say, oh, do you really? If some, if you just, if you, they think if you, you can make it through if you don't want to make it through. If you don't truly want to make it through, then guess what? You're, you're probably not going to make it through. And it's the same thing with jujitsu. If you don't really enjoy it. If you're doing it just for the black belt.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:48Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of, it's kind of hard to do it just for the black belt. That's my point. Just like if you're gonna go through SEAL training just to get your SEAL trident and just to claim, hey, I'm a Navy SEAL. If that's the only reason that you're doing it, it's gonna be hard for you to get through.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Right, so, so I would imagine anywhere, I would guess that it wasn't their only reason, but let's just say either that was a big reason to begin with, or just over time, that started to be the, the reason. You know, you know, I mean, people can fall in and out of that mindset and that trap, you know, where it's like, I just want the, that belt. I want to walk around and be known as a black belt or whatever. And then that mindset starts to just creep in their mind and it becomes like a major part of their thinking. So it's like, dang, this works, especially when frustration comes in and.

• 19:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's, that's one of the kind of cool things about no gi, in the idea that. And and everyone gives belts now with no gi. I mean Dean gives belts with no gi. I mean I support giving belts with no gi, even though guy never wears a gi and he doesn't need a belt. But you know, say, oh, this guy's a black belt. But one thing that is cool about no gi and kind of especially during the uh during the rogue years of no gi where it wasn't a thing yet and we were just doing it. And there were guys at the time that were only, didn't you start off training only no gi?

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there were guys that only trained no gi. So it was really a real thing of the belts literally didn't matter because they didn't exist. And then it was just how good are you? Where do you fall out on the totem pole of I can tap you, you can't tap me, but this guy can tap me and I, you know what I mean?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:16Jocko Willink?

  That were, there was something pretty cool about that. Because belts for me have never been a goal or anything, um, really to me, to me, I just wanted to be better at at the jujitsu.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, but regardless, that is a part of it for a lot of, I don't know, a lot, but for some people's thinking. So I think with that way of thinking, I think, I think it can be like that. They'll get a black belt and be like, oh, finally, now I get to focus on my career, you know, I'm a black belt.

• 20:42Jocko Willink?

  And I would, the other important thing about this is like, don't stop training jujitsu. Like, don't just stop cold turkey, man. That's not good. Even if you can only train a couple times a week or once, even if you train once a week, man, train once a week, you know, just to keep your head in the game, keep your, do, at least you can see the new moves, you can see where things are developing, maybe that'll ignite your desire to get back on the mat more. But don't stop training, you know, and even on the days when you don't want to, there's one day when you don't want to train, go train that day.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:12Jocko Willink?

  Go train that day.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  What it does to, a big part of it, it is, it keeps your body in tune with the jujitsu movement, just the general movement. Cause that's what, one of the things that Ensign said, where he was like, my body wasn't moving the same, it wasn't moving. And it's, it's one thing to be like, okay, I'm getting older, I'm less mobile, but

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  Negative.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Jujitsu move, yeah, we don't know anything about that. But, but jujitsu movement, there's a certain kind of movement that develops just kind of naturally, you know, when you're rolling all the time. And if you lose that 10 years, I could see you lose that. So it's like, dang, my hip escape is really labored right now. And I just, it's hard to do when it's so easy to do normally, you know? So, you know, I can I can understand, I see that, you know, um, but yeah.

• 21:52Jocko Willink?

  And this really goes with anything, anything that you're doing, like any, you know where you find this also is people that are in business that whatever, whatever level they advanced out of. They, they then, let's say it's a, they, they move out of a technical position and they move up to a management position. Don't just walk away completely from the technical side. Like just go, go do it once a week. Go get in the game. Make sure that you still understand so that you stay, so that you stay in the game.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:21Jocko Willink?

  And you don't lose, you don't wake up because you were a black belt. That's why you got promoted above into a management position. You were a black belt on that technical side and they saw potential for you. So when you walk away from it and when you move up, don't just walk away completely. Stay in the game. Go do, you know, if you're in the military, just because you got promoted to whatever, a company commander or a, or a staff guy on the battalion. Don't you say, well, I'm never going to go in the kill house again. No, no, no. Go in the kill house. Even if you can only do it once every week or, or maybe once a month, you just get to go and, and keep your head in the game. You've got to do that. So you stay fresh. You stay, like you said, you keep that mental game there. Whereas if you just walk away, you, and when I would have guys that were senior to me,

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  come out and go through little blocks of training with us. Maybe they come out and go to the kill house with us for a day. They didn't know what they were doing. They didn't know what they were doing. Part of it was because they walked away for too long, but even when they didn't know what they were doing, you were still like, hey, man, good for him for coming out. You know, it wasn't like you said, oh, look at him. He doesn't know. I don't respect him. No, you're actually, actually the opposite is true. You'd say, ah, man, props, props to the boss here for coming out and getting after it with the boys for a day.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:31Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't know what he's doing, but maybe we can help him.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:33Jocko Willink?

  And if they had that mentality the whole time, because it's pretty, it's a lot easier to maintain a skill than it is to learn it.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  So all you have to do, you're a black belt man, get on the mat once a week, you know, just, just get in there and roll with some people, roll them up.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but um I back to Ensign, I dig it either way. I I even dig it that he did it and then really took some peer review and it was like, hey, I maybe didn't look at it this way.

• 23:59Jocko Willink?

  It was an open minded decision making process.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, he went back in, went to the source, to his instructor. Yeah, we support that one big time. Went back to the instructor and he was like, hey, and he was like, yes, yes, sir. You know, that's kind of where where it all came from. And he and he went back to black belt. Even that, I can't help but respect, you know, whole situation. And what if, this is like a whole side note, what if, what if you go like, um, who gave you your black Fabio, right?

• 24:24Jocko Willink?

  No, Dean Lester.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Dean, okay, so let's say you you took 10 years off, you came back and roll with Dean.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And Dean was like, bro, I I am your instructor. I'm taking your belt. I'm giving you a purple belt.

• 24:36Jocko Willink?

  That would be awesome.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  But but like, is that, is that cool? Like, you you know, as far as like, can you do that or what? How do you feel about that?

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  I I don't know, but that would be very cool to see that happen. Even just, even just, oh, you want to hear, you want to hear an old school story, an old school jujitsu story?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay, this is awesome. So, uh, back in the day, back in the day, I was a blue belt. Uh, Dean was, I think Dean was a blue belt too. He might have been a purple belt. And there was another person that was a blue belt at the time, my wife.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Your wife was a blue belt?

• 25:13Jocko Willink?

  A blue belt. And she was good. She's a really good athlete.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Is that how you met your wife?

• 25:18Jocko Willink?

  No, no, she was, I imposed jujitsu upon her once we were married. So, you know, it was all good and we were training with Fabio and Fabio's, you know, Fabio's great instructor and and we were at the academy one day and there's a guy from out of town in, right? And he's a purple belt. So, you know, purple belt, you know, you figure the guy's good. But this is back in the day too. This is in the in the mid 90s, so probably like 90, I'll say 96. And

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  So this guy comes in from out of town and you know, there wasn't that many Jiu Jitsu schools. In San Diego, there was like two, right? It was that, it was Fabio, there was Rodrigo. I think that was it. At the time. So anyways, this guy comes in, he's kind of a, he's probably thirty-five years old. Probably a hundred and fifty pounds, purple belt. So you know, we're rolling and we're a little bit like, okay, the guy's a purple belt. Um, but there's that attitude of the guys know, the guy knows what he's doing. So I didn't roll them, but I'm watching him, I'm rolling with Dean, we're doing our thing and it's kind of the open mat period. And

• 26:25Jocko Willink?

  and Fabio has him roll with my wife. And so my wife, you know, she's good, she's, but she's a they're rolling. And he gets her in a choke, he gets her in a rear naked choke. And she buries her chin like a white belt of like a, like a defense, you know, I'm gonna bury my chin so he's not gonna choke me. He chokes her face. Like I'm talking legit, gets after it on her face. And she starts crying. And a little bit of blood.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Well dang.

• 26:59Jocko Willink?

  And

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:00Jocko Willink?

  So, so I'm just like, and so I hear her scream or whatever, like, and then, and then uh, you know, she gets up and he lets go and he's kind of like, oh, sorry, uh, blah, blah, blah. And Fabio looks at me, he goes, and the guy didn't know it was my wife.

• 27:17Jocko Willink?

  Fabio goes, Fabio goes, Jaco, you roll with him now. And I go, okay. So I, even I, I was like, okay, I'm gonna smash him. But I didn't intentionally like assault him. I just smashed him. I mean, I'm, I crushed him and submitted him, but I didn't like break his arm. And But I smashed him and I was doing a lot of knee and stomach at the at the time. So I was just driving, you know, it was like an early version of the park bench. I had knee in his neck and we're smashing him and um, and then I get done and I wore him out pretty good.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  And Fabio was like, now I will roll with you and Fabio tore him up and uh, was like cracking arm bars on him and choking him and smashing him. And then the guy's like, the guy's like broken down and Fabio is, Fabio said, you're not a purple belt. And I can't remember if he took his purple belt, but he kicked him out and he said, don't ever come back here and you're not a purple belt. And I think he took his purple belt and said, you're not a purple belt. No, you know, he, he's, he also said, I have one thing I remember him saying is like, this girl's been training here for two and a half years. She's never been hurt. She's never had a problem. You come in here and hurt this girl. You're not a purple belt. You don't know what you're doing. Give me your purple belt.

• 28:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that was a cool demotion.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  Courtesy of Fabio Santos, old school jujitsu right there, son.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, dang, yeah, that's um, yeah, different situation though.

• 28:54Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it is a different situation, but but I think, I don't know, maybe we need to see more demotions in jujitsu. That's, that's a possibility.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I need to get started on that. Demote myself right now.

• 29:07Jocko Willink?

  So, all right, that's awesome.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  But yeah, yeah, man.

• 29:11Jocko Willink?

  Old school jujitsu, Fabio.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  But it's kind of interesting though, right? Cause it, that kind of falls the same, in the same way, like in the same line is, is, is that acceptable for a professor to demote their student if they lost a step? Or once you earn that, that black belt or the, whatever the belt is, once you earn it, it's like you paid those dues.

• 29:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  That's, you know, it's a hard.

• 29:32Jocko Willink?

  Tough one, isn't it?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 29:36Jocko Willink?

  I, I don't know. I think, I think I might be wrong in terms of the way people view it, but I think demotion is, is kind of cool.

• 29:45Jocko Willink?

  I think, I think more demotions need to happen. Like, oh, you haven't been coming to the gym for two years? Cool. Give me your brown belt. You know what I mean? Hey, man, sorry, you know?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  No one's ever gonna come to my academy.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I would, I would say that that could be the case if the rea- like if you're, if you're this highly competitive. Uh, philosophy type team where you, if you go out in a tournament, you have to represent. And that was the culture real rigid like that then yeah, but you know, jujitsu for life, you know, you can take 10 years off. Jujitsu is kind of part of you or whatever. You were awarded this belt through your

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, maybe you're right.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Efforts and stuff like that. Then it's like, now I gotta worry about all my time and effort.

• 30:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that would scare people off that they go like, I don't want to go back because I don't want to get demoted.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Exa- yeah, exactly.

• 30:32Jocko Willink?

  Now I gotta do, I gotta earn it back.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like I said, if there was a job that you had to do, basically it's like if you have a job to do as a brown belt, you have to represent, you know, like in a, in a company or something. You can't be the director of sales, get that job and then now your performance sucks. You know, you can't, because you have a job to do. But like I said, jujitsu is not really a job where.

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I mean, when you're a brown belt in a school, you have to go and help train the other people. That's part of your job, right?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:02Jocko Willink?

  You have to show up and train with me.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Right? Yeah, for sure. And yeah, if you're violating some, you know, some ethics or something like that, then I mean, even then you don't really take away the belt. You take away their whole, like get out of here, you know?

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  But I think, so, so the bottom line is, although I think demotions would be cool, I don't think it's probably going to happen. And I think that the, I think that's tradition. Cause although I do believe, I think demotions is a good idea. I also do like some of the traditional aspects of jujitsu. And one of the traditional aspects is when you get a belt, your belt.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you did it. You put in all that time, all that effort, all that knowledge, you know?

• 31:36Jocko Willink?

  Alright, you get to keep your belt, people. Barely.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  But here's the, here's the thing I think that's, that's interesting about.

• 31:43Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny is at the gym, I will shout out things like, like, take that guy's, take his brown belt. Like if a purple belt's really doing good against a brown belt, I'll be like, take his brown belt from him, do it.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, yeah, or.

• 31:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm kind of an instigator sometimes.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  And I like that. I like that that's part of our fun culture where you can say. Or if you roll with it, let's say like, um, I'll do this with like my friends or whatever. If they're a brown belt and it, and it's, you know, same belt as you and you get them and you get them like kind of easy or with a new move or something that's real flashy or something. You take their belt and say like, you don't deserve that right now. You know, we're going to roll and you can't wear a belt, you know? But it's a joke, you know what I mean? But I think that that's kind of what's in our minds anyway. So let's say a guy rolls in, he's a brown belt and he's getting smashed or whatever by like purple belts.

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's one of the, one of the best things about jujitsu is that the belt. It doesn't really mean anything, does it?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:34Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you're a black belt and you come in there getting smashed by blue belts.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  No one's sitting there thinking, wow, he's a black belt. They're thinking, no, there's something wrong with him.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 32:42Jocko Willink?

  He's not, no, no black belt here.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's one of the best things about jiu jitsu is the truth is on the mat. So I guess it doesn't, you don't need to get demoted.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:49Jocko Willink?

  Your mere existence is a demotion if you're not, if you're not training.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Right. So like, like it goes back to what I was saying where you put in all that time. Cause really the belt is based on specific things. And those things, if you've done those things, you've taken the time is one of them, the knowledge, the, you know, understanding of all this stuff. Basically all, all that the belt is based on.

• 33:08Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  That doesn't really go away. You put in that time. You have that knowledge, you know?

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  All right. I think Echo's scared I'm gonna take his belt away.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Or maybe I'll take your belt away.

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  Bring it. Hey, there's gonna be about a 45 second break in the podcast right now.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 33:28Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next question, dead horse. Go.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Chaco, what do I say to someone I've trained and later claims, this person claims that a certain thing was not covered in the training?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Uh, in addition to the question says, obviously excuses.

• 33:48Jocko Willink?

  Obviously excuses. So this is a, this is a really pretty common question of how do you handle these situations? And I've actually been lucky enough in my life to have run a lot of training into a lot of different situations, mostly in the military. And I've absolutely had this happen. And there's one thing that I do when this happens and you can probably guess what it is. I take ownership of it.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:12Jocko Willink?

  So check it out. If somebody comes to me and says, oh, you were supposed to train us on X and you didn't. And I know that I did and it was in the curriculum and we covered it. I say, I don't say, no, I trained you and here it is. No, I say, okay. Let's get it trained then. What do I gotta do? Well, here it is. Let me redo the curriculum. Let me show it to you again because here's the thing as a trainer. It's not just your job and this is what I used to tell my guys when I ran training, the guys that were the instructor cadre. I'd say, listen, it isn't your job. Just to run the training, just to provide the training. It is your job to ensure that the training is absorbed. That's the difference. That's a big difference between philosophies of training. I, my goal when I'm training someone is to make sure that the training is absorbed into the mind.

• 34:57Jocko Willink?

  Otherwise, go watch a YouTube video because a YouTube video, you can see the same instruction. But no, I need to seek you out and say, okay. Where, where did you miss it? Where, and also where did I fail in my training? If I covered it, why don't you remember it?

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:13Jocko Willink?

  That means I didn't cover it well enough or I didn't teach it well enough. And I think that.

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  You, you then you retrain them. You get them up to speed. At some point they're going to realize that you did train them. I mean, if they truly forgot. Or even if they didn't forget, but they're just placing the blame on you, they're going to realize that you know. They're going to know that you know that you trained them.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  When they, when you reflect on the same information and do it again. So. I think it's a pretty simple answer. Uh, when someone is saying you haven't trained them, take responsibility for it, take ownership for it. And say, okay, look, then let me get you trained on it. My, my apologies. I'm here to train you. Let me make sure that I train you and make sure that you absorb it.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:56Jocko Willink?

  Let's go.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I think that your way of training should be.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Done or performed with kids as well, like parents with their kids. You know how, because you know how the kid, the kid's misbehaving. And the parents like, I don't know why he does that. I told him not to pitch a fit. Well, yeah, I know you probably told him or you went through the motions of telling him or whatever, but man, you gotta, you gotta train them and make sure that's absorbed, you know?

• 36:23Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  So, and I always kind of think of it this way, not kind of, I really think of it this way where. If your kid is misbehaving, it's something you did or didn't do.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  So you can't really sit there and be like, oh, blaming the kid for misbehaving or whatever.

• 36:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, you're, you're right. I wonder, isn't it weird that you can have families where one kid can go to?

• 36:50Jocko Willink?

  Go to high school and do well and do great on their SATs and get to a great college and go to and go be a doctor and the other kid can become a heroin addict.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:00Jocko Willink?

  Isn't that strange?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  It it's interesting, but I and I think a long time ago, I would talk to you about this like a long time.

• 37:07Jocko Willink?

  And how do we blame the parents and?

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. That's the that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying blame the parents. I'm not saying that. Cause because that would that if you're blaming them, that's like saying it's so easy. Why didn't you do that? I blame you, you know, kind of thing. It's not easy, but there's so many different dynamics to every kid's experience. So you know how and this is how the conversation kind of, if I remember correctly, kind of started when you were like, hey, I have, you know, four kids or whatever. And they're just different.

• 37:33Jocko Willink?

  They are. True.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Um, then I said, this is before I had kids, by the way, so you weren't really.

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, this is back in the day.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you you didn't, you don't really care about that. Well, not to say you didn't care. Anyway, I said, um, I said,

• 37:51Speaker 01

  okay, yeah, it's kind of complicated. So.

• 37:53Jocko Willink?

  Uh oh.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Kids are different. Yeah, but they're not just different. Like, that's not it.

• 38:00Jocko Willink?

  It's nature and nurture. Yes.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, fully. So consider every kid's starting point is different. So you can't expect everyone, every kid's ending point to be the same, even though they go through the same experience.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Just being the second born, you're starting out as a completely different human being.

• 38:17Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Just being two years, one year, five years younger than your older brother.

• 38:22Jocko Willink?

  So those minor variables end up creating some major differences. Yes, of course.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  So at at certain points in development, they're gonna have kind of the same needs, but in a different environment. So the way that you fulfilled those same needs with the first kid are gonna look different as far as them being translated. With the second kid and the third kid and the fourth, you know, however many kids you have.

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  So you'd have to make slight adaptations to what you did to the second kid than the first.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  And to keep a handle of all those dynamics is it's hard. So that's why it's like.

• 38:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, not only that, it's not an exact science.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:57Jocko Willink?

  And and the way kids react, the way people, it's not just, we're not, we're not just talking about kids here. We're talking about people because you get different people that you hire at different times or different people that join platoons at different times. And they have a different attitude. So yeah, you gotta adjust. But the the bottom line is the thing that remains constant through all this is that if you're trying to impart knowledge on people, you need to take responsibility, not just for showing them the knowledge, but to making sure that they absorb the knowledge. And the primary methodology of doing that is by explaining to people why they're doing what they're doing and why you're telling them this and why this occurs. So if, like you said, you tell your kid, don't have a temper tantrum. And then you never explain to them, here's why you don't want to have a temper tantrum.

• 39:41Jocko Willink?

  When you're doing this, you could hurt yourself, you could hurt other people, you're going to do things that regret. You're going to like break something in the house. I can't control you. I can't bring you anywhere if you're going to act like this. That means we can't go out and have fun. So you got to explain why.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:53Jocko Willink?

  And once you explain why, then people have a better chance of absorbing the information. But yes, you as a trainer, parent, leader, teacher, has the responsibility, not just to impart knowledge, but to ensure that the knowledge is absorbed.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Jocko Willink?

  Rant complete.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Well, but and of course, like I said, it's for parenting, it's not like just that easy, you know?

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  No, parenting is very difficult leadership situation.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  So it's really a lot like Plinko, really. Consider it, you know what I mean? You start at a different point and all these variables. Well, but yeah, there you go.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  So next question.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Jaco.

• 40:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  In the SEAL teams, you led all male teams. Any leadership difference in business wor- in the business worlds with mixed gender or female teams?

• 40:46Jocko Willink?

  So, first of all, in the military, I did work with women. There's, there's no women in SEAL teams, but there's women that are in intel, there's women that are in logistics, there's women in the, in the, some of the logistics support units that go out in the field sometimes. So, definitely worked with women in the military and in the civilian sector with, with Echelon Front. I've worked with all kinds of women, all kinds of women in every level from CEOs on down to frontline troopers. And here's the deal for me, it's no factor, no factor to me. Uh, what's a factor to me is can they do their job? Do they have an open mind? Are they humble? Do they treat people with respect? Those are the kind of things that I'm judging.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  It's like what we talked about earlier. I'm judging, but I'm not judging based on what they are. I'm judging on who they are and who they are as a person. So, that's, I, I see no real difference. The leadership, the way that you lead doesn't change. In my opinion, from the, from the women I've seen in leadership positions to the men I've seen in leadership positions, the, the, the way they lead is successful because of the way they lead, not because they're male or female. And, you know, some of the stereotypes that, that you might see out there, um, like, like, like for instance, men are tougher than women or, or men or, or women are more emotional than men.

• 42:17Jocko Willink?

  That's just garbage. And if you see, I've seen, at least when you get to a leadership position, I've definitely seen women that were way tougher than, than guys were in terms of, hey, we gotta make this move for the company. Here's what I'm gonna do. Boom, they execute it. And I've seen men that were way too emotional and attached to this scenario and ruin it because they're just way more emotional than the stereotypical woman might be. So, that's why I just don't think you can trust them. I look at a person, not whether they're a man or a woman, I'm looking at their, the content of their character. For the second time, I'll say that today, MLK. And now, when we start talking about combat, um, there's some physical differences that make

• 42:58Jocko Willink?

  that make a definite impact. And I talked about on Tim Kennedy, if you want to hear me talk about that. Because, yeah, when you get into some physical things, men are stronger than women. And so there's a, there's some physical limitations there. But in terms of leadership capabilities in the, in the civilian sector, there's, yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not worried about men and women. Yeah, okay, are there some nuances there? There are. There are nuances. For instance, like one you'll hear is, um, I'll get asked, you know, I'm a, I'm a female and I'm in charge of these guys. Uh, you know, how should I act? Or what should I do? Cause they, they might not like

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  working for, for, for a girl. And I say, they probably, that, that guy probably wouldn't like working for a guy either, or for a younger guy, or for a guy that got moved from another's department. There's, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. So what are you gonna do? It's the same thing I always say, be humble, listen to what they have to say, keep an open mind. That's what you're gonna do, regardless, male, female, whatever. It just, older, younger, doesn't matter. You want it, the, being a good leader, the principles don't change. That's all there is to it.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause, yeah, cause in, as an insecure guy, getting, getting led, or, or, or, or a girl calling shots or whatever, will affect them. But like I said, if they, if their leadership principles are sound, and they're making the right call, it's gonna be obvious that that, like, that guy's messing up, or, you know, like, he's, he's, um, um, acting out of insecurity, or not acting, um, out of insecurity, it's gonna be obvious. The leadership part, as long as that's sound, you're gonna have success.

• 44:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'm, that's no factor to me.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 44:54Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I should bring some of the female leaders that I've worked with on the podcast. You know, the thing, the problem with that is they're no different than the male leaders I've worked with. I'm sure that there's some, some women who listen to this and they go, oh, you don't know how hard it is when X. Or you don't know, I, I, but that's what I'm saying. Like the good female leaders I've worked with have been like, oh yeah, that can be sometimes a problem because I'm a woman and here's what I do to negate it. Because guess what? The next day I'll be working with a different client and it's a man and he goes, well, you know, I have to deal with X and this is how I mitigate it. So everyone's dealing with X.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  Everyone's got some factor that they're trying to overcome. And it's just a good leader will find a way around that factor or find a way to mitigate that factor. And a bad leader won't and will then use that factor as an excuse.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:42Jocko Willink?

  Rather than just as an advantage. You know, there's a huge difference between taking ownership of these problems and saying, oh, you know what? Here's the issue. Okay. I'm going to own that and I'm going to take care of it. I'm going to find a way around it. Instead of saying, oh, I'm younger, I'm older, I'm a woman, I'm a man trying to lead these. It's just like, no, you're, you're a human leading another human being. And so step up and lead, figure out what the issues are and overcome them.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Jaco.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I've taken a lot of inspiration from your philosophy of good.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  How do you apply this without succumbing to Pollyannaism? Did I say that right?

• 46:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So Pollyannaish is, is a, is a term. And it actually comes from a, from a novel.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  From, I think it's like the early 1900s, but it, it, uh, the name of the novel is Pollyanna. And anyways, Pollyanna in the book has this really super positive attitude. And it's almost so positive that it, it overwhelms and it kind of changes people's attitudes in the town. But there's a pejorative meaning of this word, which is what this guy's asking about. And it is, that is when, when someone is like so positive that they.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  That they forget about reality of a situation, you know? And so that's, that's, that can be absolutely problematic and that is not what I'm telling anybody to do. In fact, the, the, let's, let's not mistake the, the good philosophy as one that negates reality. That is totally off. That's not what I'm telling you to do. In fact, the very first thing you have to do is accept reality. That's the first thing you gotta do. You gotta look at what's happening.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  You gotta assess it, assess the reality of it, and then you say, okay, good. Now, instead of dwelling on the negatives and what's gonna go bad and what's wrong, you deal with them, but then you look at, okay, now what are we gonna do positive out of this? What good's gonna come out of this? And that's, that's all it is. It's definitely not denying or being delusional about the situation by any stretch, but it is also not being woe is me. And all this happened and now, oh my gosh, everything's going horrible. I'm doomed. No, that's, that's not what I'm talking about. Obviously, I'm not talking about that. And it's also not like, it's okay. Everything's wonderful. No, that's why the term is good and not wonderful, right? I'm not saying everything's wonderful, but good.

• 48:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now what are we gonna find out of this? What are we gonna figure out of this? What are we gonna make happen now? Because I'm gonna deal with reality. I'm gonna accept reality. I'm going to accept reality.

• 48:36Jocko Willink?

  Then there's some people that, you know, like the, the self-help gurus that are like, no, I'm just not going to accept that. It's not gonna happen.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  You make your own reality.

• 48:44Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna be so positive that I'm gonna get that million dollars tomorrow. No, no, actually, you're not gonna get that million dollars tomorrow. You're gonna have to work. You're gonna have to work for a long time. You're gonna have to work hard. You're gonna have to stay focused on your goals, and then you'll get your million dollars.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Good to see how strong you are after that.

• 48:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes. So, that's it. Deal with reality, accept reality, then find the good in it, and move forward.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  That's a cool video, by the way, that you that you made.

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  You like that video?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  No, I do.

• 49:19Jocko Willink?

  I think, is that you fishing for a compliment?

• 49:23Jocko Willink?

  That video is, uh, that video has been, a lot of people watch that video.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting, too, because you made that video. And you made another video, where does discipline come from?

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  And and I actually, personally, I liked the where does discipline come from video better. But the good video, it just strikes a chord with people.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:43Jocko Willink?

  The, uh, cause I think, I think, cause it applies so universally to negativity in the world, like, okay, yep, these bad things are happening right now. In fact, I get so much feedback of people that literally say, you know, thank you for introducing me to that idea, that philosophy, because it's changed my attitude. And now when things go wrong, I say, good, now what am I gonna do about it?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  So I think that's why that video is is is quite popular. That and the unbelievable editing that was done, when it was put together.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Yeah, and it it does seem like a real, um, like, personal, like deeply personal thing, like, cause it it's like, it's more, um, it's not this like sensationalization of it. It's just, it's real kinda, kinda dark, whatever. And like how you said, like the negative part of it, it's like, um, I said this last time, where it's a painkiller, it's not a multivitamin, you know?

• 50:38Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean by that?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Meaning.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  I've heard you say that before.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Meaning, like, if you have a problem, you, you know, okay, just in nature, when you, when you're going along, what are your brain is is evolved to to recognize problems? And if something isn't a problem, it'll start to filter that out. That's just how your brain is. So in life, when you have problems, that's what's always on the radar. Now you have this little personal, like, tool that's talking to you of how to deal with those problems.

• 51:05Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So, um, so it's it's kind of that, like, the discipline, where does discipline come from? It's kind of, that's more, starts to go into the multivitamin thing, where it's like, it's not a big problem. I'm gonna try to recognize it as a problem, I need more discipline, you know? But it's not really this huge problem, but it does help, you know, kind of thing. So it's like a multivitamin.

• 51:25Jocko Willink?

  Interesting.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Um, but I like the discipline one as well.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Okay, next question. Coach Jaco. What are your thoughts?

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  I wonder who, does that mean a jujitsu guy wrote that?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Uh, I think so.

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  Must be, it must be, but was it someone from like the gym, you think?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 51:45Jocko Willink?

  To address me as coach. And first of all, if you come to my gym, you don't have to call me coach. It's kind of weird, kind of weird to me. Maybe that's why he's doing, maybe he just knows I'm a black belt and thinks I should be called Coachy Boy.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, or it could be like one like chief, you know, hey, what's up, chief? What's up, coach? I've heard coach.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  In fact, I don't mind coach in that regard.

• 52:01Jocko Willink?

  But you're only a brown belt. How can you like coach?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Nah, but in life, you know, I said, when I remember when I said a long time ago where I was like, I don't like. No, I don't mind.

• 52:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you don't like boss?

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Or dude, when a girl says dude.

• 52:14Jocko Willink?

  But I actually, I used to joke and I'd say, look, guys, if you don't feel comfortable calling me sensei or instructor or coach, you can just call me master, either one.

• 52:27Jocko Willink?

  But the reality is just call me Jaco.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I heard someone call you coach. Um, it was, you know how certain guys, they like that.

• 52:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I don't like correct people. I don't say, don't call me coach. You know, I just, I just, I'm okay. I don't care what people call me, to be honest with, with you.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Well. Okay. But yeah, yeah, the guy called you, it was weird. It's like he kept calling you coach.

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  There's a, there's definitely a handful of people that call me coach. Maybe they don't know what my name is.

• 52:57Jocko Willink?

  All right. So go back to the question here, coach.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Dude from now on.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  Dude.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Uh, uh, Coach Jaco, what are your thoughts on dealing with old age when getting physically stronger and faster ain't gonna happen?

• 53:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, I, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. About age, because it's not happening to me. I'm not getting any older. I mean, when is it that, that it ain't gonna happen anymore? I don't know. Because I, I'm continuing to train. I'm continuing to do what I do. I've had people tell me that, well, when you hit thirty and then I had, oh, when you hit thirty-five, then when you get forty, now it's when you hit forty-five. Now I'm hearing when it's fifty. So, um, yeah, I don't know. I, I just know that I'm just gonna keep getting after it. I'm gonna keep getting stronger. I'm gonna keep getting faster. I'm gonna keep getting better. And if I can't beat my record. Well, then how close can I get? How close can I get to the record?

• 53:51Jocko Willink?

  And I think I've talked about this before is like, I always think about decay.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  And how if you don't fight decay, it, it, it starts to just, you won't notice it. It's slow and it's, it's, it's like moving like the hour hand, like you don't see it happening. And I think that's why, I think that's why a lot of aging happens because people don't notice that it's happening. So they don't pay attention to it. So what happens is they don't hold the line. They don't hold the line and like I track my workouts. I'm not OCD about it. I'm not like a psycho, like, you know, A, I did it in 14 minutes and 32 seconds and then, and then I refer back to it. No, but I know the general trends and I know where the numbers are and I know where they should be. And I know that I, I need to always keep those in mind, you know?

• 54:41Jocko Willink?

  How many pull-ups can I do? How much can I squat? How much, you know, just those, just those numbers. So you keep them in line. And I think what that does, I do that so I can hold the line because like I said, I think age sneaks. I don't think age assaults you.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:54Jocko Willink?

  I think it sneaks up on you. And the way it sneaks up on you is a missed rep there. And a, and a slower lap over here and a missed workout over there. And you, you just boom, there's this little, age is chipping away at you. It's just chipping away. It doesn't, it actually doesn't want you to notice. It doesn't want, that's why it doesn't hit you all at once. It just, just wants to chip away. And then you fast forward 15 years and you're not the same guy you were. Because those chips have taken, taken all your strength away. They've taken your flexibility away. They've, they've, they've done, done work on you. So that's why I, like I said, I don't know what, okay. Am I going to be able to hold the same records?

• 55:39Jocko Willink?

  When I'm 59? And we got some older guys like, you know, Gordon?

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:43Jocko Willink?

  Gordon's 54? And I trained with Gordon.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:48Jocko Willink?

  I trained with Gordon. I mean, Gordon's legit black belt. And, and he's not just a legit black belt with knowledge. Like you can train with him. He trains hard.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:56Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 55:58Jocko Willink?

  I'm just very, I try and stay self-aware. And I think I try and prevent the cutting of corners. And I try and maintain the daily discipline in all things. That's what I try and do. Because when you start cutting those corners is when I think it adds up over fifteen years and you wake up and you're not the person that you remembered that you were and you're not the person you wanna be. So, you gotta maintain and hold that line as long as you can. And I'm always actually trying to do new things too. Like trying to figure out something else that's new, some other technique I've never done before, some exercise I haven't got. I'll buy some weird piece of exercise gear.

• 56:37Jocko Willink?

  Cause I'll see something cool on the interwebs and I'll go, dang, I can't do that. How's that fourteen-year-old girl doing that? I can't do that. I wanna learn how to do that. And, uh, so that's, that's, I think you gotta fight it.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and that, that, that's a good analogy, the hour hand. You know, where you can't, you can't, you watch it all day, you can't see a move. But look away for one second, not one second, but you know, you look away for a little while, you look back and boom, that thing snuck right up on you. And, and that's, I mean, that's how you really slip. That's how it'll assault you as far as age and decay goes. Where if you, if you stop for a while and you try to come back, if you stop for ten years. You know, and you try to come back, that hour hand moved a lot.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  It moved a lot.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, so.

• 57:22Jocko Willink?

  Cause you weren't fighting it.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause you can hold that hour line. I mean, you can hold it. You can, maybe you can't stop it. You can slow that some bitch down.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  You just gotta keep your eye right on that thing.

• 57:32Jocko Willink?

  You're pushing it back.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  It's not moving at all. And sure, you know, like I said, at when you're ninety and you've been looking at that hour hand since you were twenty-five. Then yeah, you're gonna be like, oh, I remember back when I was twenty-five, it was way over here. Now I'm way over here fitness-wise or whatever. Or I can squat less or whatever, of course, you know.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Inevitability, but just like I said, yeah, if you you just stay on that that discipline in all in all things, man, you're gonna hold that you're gonna hold it good.

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  Do not go gentle into that good light.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:04Jocko Willink?

  Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  And with that, the.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  You know, there's kind of balance to all things. Don't get crazy. You know how guys will just be redlining their workout because they're trying to maintain that.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, you you can't. You gotta be careful about that.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, because.

• 58:21Jocko Willink?

  It's just like a race car. You can't keep the race car in the red.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  You gotta you gotta bring it back to the shop sometimes like get a little tune up.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, they gotta be part of the routine.

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I can only I'm, you know, I'm pretty good. That's another thing is the more you work out, the more you train, the more the the the better you know your own body.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  And you know, you walk up to the gym sometimes, like, what was it, yesterday? Yeah, yesterday, man, I I felt like Superman, like I was just super strong. I was doing one of my workouts. I was strong. I was just technical. I just felt great. You know, and I'd say there's some days that I go in the gym and I'm like, oh, what, you know, I gotta stretch. I gotta like take an easy day. And and then there's some days where I say, I gotta take an easy day, but anyways, I'm just gonna get crushed. I'm just gonna crush this thing. But and part of that, again, because I see that you gotta make sure that you're not cutting corners. You gotta make sure that you're not taking your eye off the hour hand sometimes and letting that thing get up, get one up on you because you're being lazy.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:23Jocko Willink?

  So that's why going this is sometimes a lot of workouts I have. You know, I have some days, some days where I feel like Superman. I have some days where I feel like a like horrible, and I have a lot of.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  More like Lois, Lois Lane or something.

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, some days where I feel like I'm just going through the motions, but going through the motions is okay.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:40Jocko Willink?

  It's okay to go in there and go through the motions. It's okay to go in there and not break any records. Going in there and going through the motions is generally a thousand times better than than not doing anything.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and that that's actually, I mean, redlining it all the time is a is an easy way to get knocked right out of the game.

• 59:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, you'll get injured after a while.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I mean, especially when you start getting older, you know?

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  I knew you were gonna say that.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:00:15Jocko Willink?

  What do you got?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  What are your favorite podcasts and why? Hashtag name dropping is okay.

• 1:00:29Jocko Willink?

  So, anybody that listens to me, there's a couple podcasts that I listen to. And they're really obvious and they're like the big, the big podcasts.

• 1:00:41Jocko Willink?

  You got, well, Tim Ferriss, boom, right? You got Joe Rogan, boom. You got Sam Harris, boom. And you got Hardcore History with Dan Carlin. And he's got another one that's called Common Sense. And I, those, those, all those are really, really good podcasts. And

• 1:01:07Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I've been listening to podcasts for many, many years now. Before listening to podcasts was cool, I was listening to podcasts. I actually grew up listening to radio shows, I've talked about that before. But I, I have, and I forget, I actually, I cannot remember how I got into podcasts. I do not remember how I got into podcasts. But anyways, whenever I got into podcasts, those are the kind of the ones that I listen to. And I've, I sample a lot of other podcasts and sometimes I'll search for certain topics and I'll just listen to a random podcast.

• 1:01:42Jocko Willink?

  One of the, but there's one more, the only one that I have that's like not on the main sites and in people's view is a podcast called Martyr Made. And it's by a guy named Darryl Cooper. And I can't recommend that, that podcast strongly enough. It's outstanding. It is an outstanding podcast and Darryl Cooper. I don't even know, like, he's just this underground guy. I think he's a, I think he was in the Navy, but he, that's not, he's not anymore. He's

• 1:02:17Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't do it. It's not like a profession for him, but it should be. He, he should be. It's, it's a great podcast. So check out Mardi Gras made. It's also, uh, he's on Twitter. Under Mardi Gras made is his, is his call sign, but he's got like a hundred and forty-two followers. Like no one knows about him. No one knows about him. And actually, you know what? It was somebody on Twitter. And I don't forget who it was. It was somebody on Twitter that told me about Mardi Gras made and just to check it out. And when people tell me to check something out, man, I check it out. And it's, as soon as you open it, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna realize why it's so good. Um, really detailed, really very good historical research. And it's a great podcast and

• 1:03:02Jocko Willink?

  those are the, and, and you know what? I'm a really picky podcast guy too. Like I'm really, I need somebody to get, I need, somebody needs to bring it on their podcast for me to like it. I try all, I try new podcasts all the time and I don't get a lot of repeat customers myself. Like I don't repeat a lot.

• 1:03:23Jocko Willink?

  Because I just, I just, yeah, it needs to be really, really solid. That's for me to list, for me to, for me to invest hours worth of my time. That's, that's gotta be a heavy investment.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  And it's gotta be something that's worth my while. And that's why those that I mentioned, let me grab a

• 1:03:45Jocko Willink?

  I'm just seeing if on my phone, if there's any others that I might've missed. But I don't think as far as like massively good ones that I can recommend across the board, um, those are them. And you know, uh, there's other ones that I'll occasionally listen to, but um, and those are all kind of like the pop, the, the, the popular ones that come out. Donco Jones has got a good podcast that he interviews, talks about rock and roll. I dig that one. Only because I really dig Donco Jones, uh, the band as well.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  The martyr made one is that like what's kind of the format with Alan it it does he have guests?

• 1:04:22Jocko Willink?

  It's no, it's similar to hardcore history. It's him, it's Daryl Cooper just talking about and that one, I I think it's gonna be his. It's about the the Israeli Palestinian conflict that goes all the way back to the beginning and talks to you about what it is and what it's about. And it's it's really good. So those are the main podcasts that I listen to. Again, you've got to and it it's just a big investment of time.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Jocko Willink?

  And especially because I don't have a commute, so I don't drive anywhere. So. And I'm in and I can't, I can't do anything mentally and do a podcast at the same time.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:02Jocko Willink?

  And listen to a podcast. So I can't read and listen to a podcast. Doesn't work. The only thing I can do is drive and do yard work. Like anything that's like actually when I have a big project to do at the house, I love it because I can get it all caught up on podcasts and whatever. So.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but yeah, you know what that is? You know, girls can do that. You know that?

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  I was not aware of that.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is how it is. This is how it works. Girls can they said they they I don't want to be dismissive and call it multitasking because it's it goes. It's more deep than multitasking. Girls can do things that require like attention. They can do more than one. Um, and then guys can't.

• 1:05:42Jocko Willink?

  I would be impressed by a girl that could listen to a legit podcast and read a book and get like the full value out of both of them.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how girls' brains are wired, they can do that a lot better than guys and guys can't. But how's this though? This is kind of interesting. And I used to do this all the time to mess with girls. Guys have a different spatial awareness than girls do. So one of the tests that was done, um, it was like, oh, I want to say sixteen. I don't know the numbers, but it was a classroom just full of guys, classroom full of girls, and they'd run all these tests. It was different tests, but one of them was. You have to draw a bicycle. That's it. So a bicycle is this kind of, in a way, kind of this unique thing when you draw it. Because you have to know where this goes because that effect, you know, the pedals got to affect the chain that affects it's a. It proved uh or it indicated spatial awareness, right?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  So of the experiment, all the guys could do it. You don't have to be an artist. Some bikes didn't look amazing, but they were working. You don't have to be an artist and. It doesn't matter if you're a bike rider too. So all the guys could do it. You know how many of the girls could do it?

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  None.

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  None. Yes. So, and I've done this experiment and if you're gonna do this experiment, do it correctly. Don't be like, hey, here's a bite copy this bite. Don't, don't cheat on it. Really, if you really want to get to the bottom, tell, ask a girl, any girl. Woman, no matter what age, draw a working bicycle. They can't do it. I've yet to come across a girl.

• 1:07:10Jocko Willink?

  Really? I'm trying that tonight when I get home to my daughters and.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yes. As a guy, it's pretty, most guys will do it. Yeah, it's weird. But anyway, it's just, just how um the brains are different.

• 1:07:23Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  There's other fun stuff.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  For me, it is very difficult to actually engage in a book and reading.

• 1:07:30Jocko Willink?

  Or writing while I'm listening to someone else talk about something intellectual. It's very challenging for me.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fully.

• 1:07:37Jocko Willink?

  To get the full value. I mean, I can do it, but if the both efforts are half ass and I won't get anything out of them.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:07:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Did you, is there any podcast you listen to that I didn't mention?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Strangely, it's the same thing, except for the martyr made one.

• 1:07:50Jocko Willink?

  Are you, you, how could you not listen to martyr made? I've told you about that a bunch of times.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Cut like he said scarcity of resources, man, that resource being time. But nonetheless, actually, even though the ones I do listen to, I don't listen to as much. Cause I don't drive as much and um. I don't do as much yard work anymore.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Um, except for that London real one, the one that you were on, that guy. I've actually like he's on my.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's not a podcast though.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:08:18Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm subscribed to it. Yeah.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  I didn't know it was an actual podcast. I thought it was only YouTube.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  I, I think it's like he takes the audio and puts.

• 1:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Okay. Well, there's another one.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he does it. And that's the thing, like a lot of times people will like.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  That's Brian Rose with London real.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's a good suggestion. He gets some cool people on this, on his show.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really, really, I mean, put real simply, it's an interview.

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Right? And a lot of podcasts like even Tim Ferriss is mostly like just interview.

• 1:08:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Tim Ferriss is actually absolutely an interview.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and then you have Joe Rogan, who's kind of like.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Conversation.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Kind of an interview, but it's more of like they're just talking as a conversation. So there's like all these little different subtleties that are, that makes them different, but. It takes a lot of skill to interview people good. Um, and this, uh, the, the London real guy.

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Rose, yeah. He's, um, he's good down to like who he chooses. They're like pretty much across the board. Everybody's interesting. Even if the subject isn't your thing, okay. But the guys he chooses for those subjects are, are pretty solid.

• 1:09:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I, I really do. I, I, I really like podcasts a lot. And you can get so much information out of them. And I love the audio format.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Jocko Willink?

  You know, I, I just, it's just great when you can, when you can just sit down and listen. And that's always what I've said for, for, for this podcast. Like, I want it to be something where people sit down and kind of put their headphones on and say, okay, I'm, I'm getting ready to press, press play. Three, two, one, here it comes.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:51Jocko Willink?

  And I mean, like, we're doing a Q and A and obviously Q and A doesn't have that same level of impact. As if I'm gonna read something either that I wrote or something that somebody else wrote. That's a very important subject matter. That we're gonna break down, then that's sort of, that's, that's what I like.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, these, these, um, these Q and A ones are cool because it is like, of course, we're just having a conversation about this stuff. But it's, there's a third person in the room as well for every question because it's their question.

• 1:10:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true. And that's one thing that's interesting. Like when you're listening to, when you're listening to any of these podcasts that I talked about. You're basically a third person in the room, sitting there, listening to the conversation. And actually, when I was on Sam Harris, you know, your brother drove up with me and he was in the room listening to the conversation. You know, it's kind of, it's kind of interesting. But you know, when you're listening to Joe Rogan and, and actually one thing that's pretty cool is I've, you know, I've done an interview with Sam Harris, I've done an interview with Joe Rogan, I've done an interview with Tim Ferriss.

• 1:10:54Jocko Willink?

  I've had some good conversations with, with, um,

• 1:10:59Jocko Willink?

  With Dan Carlin and I might end up being on Common Sense at some point. But I with the with the other three with Derek Cooper, I don't know him, but I know those guys. I know I know him. And so when I'm when I'm listening to their podcast, I do feel like I'm kind of in the room with them. And sometimes I want to like answer and say something and whatever. So, uh, yeah, it's and I think everybody, I think even people that never met Joe Rogan, but they listen to all this podcast, they think they're in there with them.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when I when I went, um, I did a thing with Joe Rogan, played pool with him and I went up to that studio before.

• 1:11:34Jocko Willink?

  What'd you go up for with Hallic or something?

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I went with, yeah, for a Hallic.

• 1:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  With them. Yes, for some stuff. Um, yeah. So that time when I went up, I asked him, hey, do you encounter people who basically feel like they know you like personally and they'll just roll into a conversation with you like you've known.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  And he said absolutely.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Every single time. Yeah.

• 1:11:53Jocko Willink?

  No, it's the same. Uh, even I'm experiencing that now. When I, when I meet someone that goes, hey, man, I listen to the podcast. Hey, and they're like talking like, well, you, you, yeah, what's, what's going on with Echo and blah, blah, blah. And they're like talking about me like, like we're bros.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  And it's, it's pretty cool.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Cause in a way you are.

• 1:12:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  You've been talking to them for a long time.

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  I know. I was thinking about this. Um, so like Hardcore History, the, the one podcast that is called Blueprint for Armageddon. If you haven't listened to it, just stop and go listen to it. It's awesome. But that thing is it's five episodes for about four hours each. So that's 20 hours. And when you get done with it, man, you, you feel like you're pretty tight with Dan Carlin. I mean, that's 20 hours. And then one day I was doing the math last week and we, cause we got to 30 podcasts and they're basically two hours each. And I'm like, my God, that's 60 hours. 60 hours worth of worth of conversation with you and me. And so absolutely, people start feeling like.

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  You know, hey, oh yeah, I know, I know what Jaco is gonna think about this or say about this and and, and they're basically in the room here, you know, talking to us.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's that added element which is gonna make that even more so with us because these are their, these are your questions, these are their questions.

• 1:13:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, these are their questions and, and I do converse with them, you know, on the interwebs too. So, so people are like, oh, and they'll hit me with a question and sometimes it's not enough to get on the podcast, but I'll just say, yeah, don't do that.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, don't do that, that's not smart, or yeah, no, that sounds like a good plan, execute, you know, stuff like that.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yep, it's just the nature of the, of the deal.

• 1:13:30Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, get your podcast on and spread the word.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  And, and by the way, thanks to, thanks Tim and Joe, uh, those guys brought me on before I had a podcast. Tim brought me on when the book wasn't out, I was basically no human being knew who I was if you weren't like in the direct, like if you weren't in the SEAL teams with me. And, and then Joe heard that podcast and then we connected on Twitter and he goes, come be on my podcast. And I was like, awesome. So, and then Sam Harris, so anyways, thanks to those guys for, for having me on and, and spreading the word a little bit.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like Sam Harris's one as well. That's actually one of the, one of the few that, that, remember how we were talking before you, um, did a podcast and we were like, oh, it'd be weird you just talking, which actually thinking about it wouldn't be that weird, really.

• 1:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, if you think about like even the last podcast that we did where I just read the book, uh, uh, Four Hours in My Life, uh, you didn't say much, you know? And you said enough to maybe get me through some, some, some spots where you had a question or maybe I didn't make something clear, but, um, you know, I think that's, I think I could do it, but, you know, yeah, I, I, I don't, I don't know why I would.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it was, it was better overall.

• 1:14:49Jocko Willink?

  I'd rather just be talking to you or whoever.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, overall, um, especially with, with the Q and A with, and I think sometimes you'll go into things that doesn't apply to everyone's common knowledge. You know, maybe only military guys will know it or only execs might know it. So, I don't, you know, there's a lot of stuff, I don't know. So I, I, I have the luxury of being here, wait, wait, wait, what do you, what is this?

• 1:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what are you talking about?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  What does ROTC mean?

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Just kidding, I don't know what ROTC mean. Anyway, but yeah, Sam Harris is good though where he just does it solo. I've actually followed Sam Harris from the long time ago.

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. He did the one with Scott Reitz from the LAPD. That's a good one.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:26Jocko Willink?

  And I liked the Tim Ferriss one with Josh Waitzkin. He's got a couple with him. Josh Waitzkin's really, uh, he's a jiu-jitsu player. He's a world champion chess guy and just, just has an interesting attitude about stuff.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  Makes me feel like, uh, you know, there's a lot more to learn out there about things. He wrote a book called The Art of Learning. Anyways, that's a, that's a really good one. Um, Joe Rogan.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Scott Reitz.

• 1:15:50Jocko Willink?

  So much of what Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan's always worth listening to.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Jocko Willink?

  And it's weird, like I pretty much with Joe, I listen to the people if I know the person that he's got on there. And I don't listen to a lot of comedians, right? Cause I don't know, I like comedians don't make me laugh.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  That's the weird, not weird. That's the good thing about Joe Rogan's cause he has so many different elements of interest, you know? There's the comedians, the jiu-jitsu guys, MMA guys.

• 1:16:14Jocko Willink?

  What he does really well is he makes people talk and he, you know, I've heard him get some criticism for,

• 1:16:22Jocko Willink?

  you know, let's say he's got like a, a, a religious guy on there and he doesn't believe in religion. But he'll let that person talk about religion and won't like jump on them and get in their face and say, no. But that's part of what makes it cool is like, he's just trying to learn, man. He's not trying to confront people, you know? He's just trying to learn and I think that's, I think all those people do that for, for the most part.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Jocko Willink?

  They're people that are interested in learning and they're, they're trying to figure stuff out themselves. And so I think it's cool that, that Joe Rogan's not getting in somebody's face about something they don't believe in. Meaning not that he doesn't disagree with people sometimes.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:17:00Jocko Willink?

  So that's that. Listen to some podcasts and, and you know, the other thing about this is like, We're putting out one podcast a week.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:11Jocko Willink?

  And that, I don't even know if that's sustainable.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Jocko Willink?

  Um, only because of time. I mean, the, the amount of time that it takes to prepare. A podcast. In the beginning, it was pretty easy for me because I was doing a bunch of books that I already read. I already read them. I just crack them open and most of those books I went well read. I mean, about face. I already had that thing outlined and highlighted.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  Um, last hundred yards already. I mean, a bunch of those beginning books were already done.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:39Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't until like the, until everyone on Twitter started telling me, hey, check out this book. And now I'm also reading books I've never seen before.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:47Jocko Willink?

  And I gotta read the book. And what I do is I read it and I go through and highlight it. And somebody asked me this question too, like, how do you prep? So I read the book. I go through, I highlight the whole thing of what I think is impactful, what I think is important. But then, once you read it, you can't just, it does, doesn't, um.

• 1:18:04Jocko Willink?

  It, it, you just don't pick it up and read the highlighted parts in order because that doesn't always make sense. And it also doesn't always have the, it doesn't make people think, it doesn't make me think about what I want to think about. It doesn't have the impact that I want it to have. So once I have it highlighted, then I have to go through and plus I'll highlight. You, you know, let's say I highlight half the book. Well, then you're not going to read half the book. So then I gotta go in and figure out what really is important. And then from there, I gotta organize it in the way that the timeline that I'm actually going to read it aloud. And then make notes about whatever comments I have about it as I'm reading it. Because that's sort of, that's sort of why I'm doing it. Because I want to comment about what I'm reading, because otherwise people just go buy the book.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:48Jocko Willink?

  And read the book yourself. But I'm trying to give my perspective on some of it. And so that's challenging. And, um, and then the other weird thing is like, I, I've, I, I meet people all the time because I travel all the time. I go to events and, and speak and companies that I'm working with. And a lot of times the people that are there that are totally into the podcast, they're not even caught up. They're, they're not caught up with the podcast and they're like, hey, I'm almost caught up. And I'm like, what do you mean, Nick? Oh, I fell behind because I, I, I blah, blah, blah, blah. And I, I'm, I'm only on 26 right now. And so sometimes I think, well, maybe people are just, we're just turning out at such a high rate. But then there's some people that I've talked to as, as I think about like, well, maybe I need to slow down a little bit.

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  I've talked to some of the, some of the people that I work with and people that listen to podcasts that are into it. And I say like, you know, we might go down to, you know, once every two weeks. And, and it's like, I just smacked him in the face. They're like, no, no, no, you know, I think it'd be, you know, you. But sometimes I also feel that.

• 1:19:51Jocko Willink?

  If I had more time, that I would be able to do a better job. Like, maybe that's something I need to weigh as well. Um, and if you think about like hardcore history, that guy, Dan Carlin is, he just makes people, he tortures people, making them wait.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Jocko Willink?

  And it make you wait and wait and wait. And, um. So I don't know, maybe we, maybe we need to go to once every two weeks. Maybe I just need to suck it up and just keep doing, I don't know, maybe, I don't know yet, but, um. Yeah. The one thing that's good about all these other podcasts is that gives you an opportunity to go listen to something else.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:20:24Jocko Willink?

  Or you go back and re-listen.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  We will see. I'm sure we might get some feedback on that one.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Jocko Willink?

  So people think, if you out there thinks you'd be okay with us going every two weeks.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:41Jocko Willink?

  Or if it's gonna ruin your life.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz it probably takes fifteen to twenty hours now. I'm a slow reader. Um, I'm a slow reader, so when I'm reading a book, it's, it's, I read. At the same pace that I talk. Now, when I'm on the podcast, I'm talking a little bit slower than I normally talk, but when I'm reading, I'm reading about the pace I'm speaking right about now. This is just a normal, and what's good about it, and I learned this in college when I read, and I'm reading at this pace, I remember just about everything that I read. If I read fast, allah, Tim Ferriss and speed reading, I don't retain the same amount. And so I read slow, I absorb, I'm thinking about it, I'm making some notes. So to get through a book, it takes ten, fifteen hours. So then you get through with that, now you gotta go back through it again.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  And decide what the actual. The actual script timing that you're gonna read it.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  So now I'm like marking up the book and I'm going back and I'm writing the page numbers and I'm tabbing it out. That takes a few hours, three hours. And so by that's all said and done, you know, you're talking about 20 hours, 15 to 20 hours to prep. And.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, every single week.

• 1:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Every single week, like today or yesterday, I got done prepping for this podcast. Or actually I got done prepping for the, the, the four hours in my life. As soon as I got done, I literally picked it, picked it up. I stood up at my bookshelf and I started looking, okay, what it's going, what's coming next? Cause I want to start reading it now.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Dang.

• 1:22:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  But that's the. The Jaco preparedness.

• 1:22:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:22:15Jocko Willink?

  Hyper preparedness, right, hyper preparedness. And also it's because when, like I said earlier, when somebody presses play on the podcast, I want them to, I want them to be getting a piece of quality material.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  I'm not gonna turn out something that's just, that's just crap. I would rather not do it at all. I'd rather shut down. And take a six month break or a lifelong break and never do it again, then just start turning it out for no reason.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Bro, you escalated that real quick.

• 1:22:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know, but you know why? You know why I did that? Because I have to maintain that attitude of like, it, it, like, I'm not doing this. I'm doing this because I wanna do it.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? I'm doing this because I wanna do it. And if I don't wanna do it, then I'm not gonna do it.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  And it is.

• 1:23:02Jocko Willink?

  I mean, like I said, I like to hit, I like to hit play on a podcast and be like, okay, this is it. Just like sitting down to listen to great music or anything like that. That the podcast for me is like that. It's like reading a great book. It's like watching a great movie. It's sitting down pressing play and going, okay, this is gonna have impact on me. And so I wanna turn something out like that. I don't wanna turn out second rate stuff. I wanna turn out something legit.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  And if I, if I fail to do that, then I'm not gonna do it.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  At least now I I'm saying if I was failed to do it, but I was trying my hardest. Okay, I might continue because I'm trying to make them. But if I was failing to do it because I wasn't putting the effort into it, then I'm not going to do it because that's. I think I think that my personal expectations and the expectations that people have when they press play. They want to get something good.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Jocko Willink?

  They want to get some quality. They want to learn something. They want to they want to enter into the game. Whereas if they start pressing play and they hear garbage, man, I don't want them to hear that. And I don't want to be that. That's not my gig. My gig is going hard, putting out hard and putting out something that that people want to listen to because it helps them. Not doing it just to do it. That's not my thing.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you start slipping in that regard, right? You can smell it from a mile away, man.

• 1:24:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you what, though. One thing I have realized when I first started, I thought, oh, well, I don't know, you know, there's only so many books. You know, that I could actually do because I'm I'm thinking books that had impact on me, real legit impact.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Jocko Willink?

  There wasn't some huge list.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:41Jocko Willink?

  But as soon as I started going down the path, now I realize that there's literally I could I could. I'm not going to be able to do in my lifetime all the books I want to do.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially when you start kind of enlisting other people to make suggestions.

• 1:24:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, which people are enlisted though. Every trooper out there sending me two or three books and saying, hey, check this out. My my Amazon bill click through to Jocko Podcast, click through to Amazon. We got it going on because half that money is from me. Because I'm ordering books all the time. When somebody says, hey, check this book out, I don't have time to play around. You know what I do? I just order it. I just click through, order it on Amazon.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Jocko Willink?

  But I need I'm literally, literally getting a new bookshelf in my house.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Because I've got so many books piling up. And yeah, that to me, what what's good about it? I love this guy. Now, this is another thing, and I told you this early on. Cause early on, you said, hey, you know, it was like three weeks into it. You're like, hey, I don't know if we're gonna be able to keep up this pace. And I said, you know what? I like this grind. I wanna be maxed out. I wanna have the pedal down. And you know what? I wanna be going hard. And I think the people that listen to the podcast are people that are going hard in their perspective lives. They're going, they're, they're working hard. They're making things happen. They're being aggressive. And that's what I'm doing here. That's what we're doing here. And so I think that's why it resonates with some people. And there's some people that are listening to this that know that they gotta step it up a little bit.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, and that also is a good thing. I don't think there's too many people that are like, Jaco, get your, get your, get it together. You need to get your game on. They know I'm bringing my A game, right? I, I'm bringing my A game and, and people know that. But the day that I can't bring my A game. Then a couple of things, maybe it's time, okay, you know what? I need more time. Cause I wanna turn out crap. Or I don't do it anymore. Or we do it whenever. But the, I like being driven. I like a deadline. I learn a lot from the podcast, from, from getting ready for it. Cause you gotta remember, I read a book. So you got a little bit by listening to an hour of me talking about a book. I read a book. I absorbed it. I highlighted it. I outlined it.

• 1:26:48Jocko Willink?

  I researched it. I looked up and I look up, oh, that general, he sounds like an interesting guy. Let me just do a real quick fact check to see if there's anything in behind the scenes I need to tell about him. Oh, you know what? There's a poem that's related to this. I'm digging out poems that I didn't know, didn't understand. And reviewing them. So all these little things. That, you know, and, and who knows? I mean, does this, should this be the full-time job? I've, I don't know, you, you know? And by the way, the whole time that I'm doing this, I got a business, you know, with Leif, that we're traveling and working with companies. I got other books in the hopper that I'm writing currently and I have to spend time doing that. Which I'm super pumped about those as well, but like those, that takes time. So, yeah.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but, but again, you know what? Bring it on. Bring it on. Bring it on. I'm gonna win. Jump in there. I'm gonna answer your Twitter questions. I'm gonna deliver some podcasts, you boy, and make it happen.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Some people choose to get after it.

• 1:27:52Jocko Willink?

  Red line.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  And we encourage that.

• 1:27:54Jocko Willink?

  Red line. That's what I'm talking about. I'm gonna red line this bad boy.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Speaking of redlining, next question. Please discuss how discipline equals freedom can and should apply to one's financial life. Thanks from all of Stupri.

• 1:28:13Jocko Willink?

  Uh, obviously, if you want to be financially free, you gotta have financial discipline. That's just the way it is. So, here's, it's, it's just simple, not easy. Save your money. Boom. That's number one. Don't buy an, here's one. Don't buy an expensive car

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  until you own a piece of property. That's just a basic rule. Yep. If you're driving a Mercedes um, S-Class from 2015.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Is that a good one, the S?

• 1:28:46Jocko Willink?

  It's a very good one. It's a very good one. But it's also a hundred and twenty thousand dollars. But if you're living, if you're renting, the wrong move. Sell that thing and buy a piece of property. A car is a depreciating asset. A property is a property is an appreciating asset. Try and put your money into your appreciating assets. Spend less than you earn. Boom.

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  Stay off the credit cards. Boom.

• 1:29:15Jocko Willink?

  Invest your money in something. I like to invest money in me. In things that I'm gonna do. That's what I want to do.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:26Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I want to invest money in things that I know and understand. And what better do I know and understand than, than things that I'm doing? For people that I know, or things that I'm involved with. So,

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  that's what you gotta do. You wanna, you wanna get your money taken care of. You wanna, you wanna have financial freedom? You gotta just have the financial discipline. That's, that's all there is to it. And work hard. You know, work hard. Make things happen. But your, your major gains. You know, most people don't become rich by their salary, right? They become, they be, they, they earn their wealth, they gain their wealth through bigger things like buying properties. You know, we got a jujitsu player at the, at the academy. A girl and you know, a year ago, she was kind of talking to me about, oh, well, you know, you know, she's just got married and blah, blah, blah.

• 1:30:20Jocko Willink?

  And we started talking, I said, you, you, you know, she said, well, think about moving. I got this condo. And I was like, we started talking about buying properties and boom, she disclosed on a, like a four, four unit property in San Diego. And the day she got the keys, she was making $400 a month. She went from paying $1,900 a month in mortgage, the day she made, she got the keys. All of a sudden that she rented that place out, she's got three units, she's living in the crappiest unit. And she's got those things rented out and now she's making $400 a month. So that's a, that's a delta of what $2,300 a month in the black.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:30:57Jocko Willink?

  That's impressive.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Jocko Willink?

  And it took her a year to get done, but she did it. And now I said, I, she's like, I'm so happy. I'm like, that's cool. Start saving, start saving for your next property. I'm like, the market's going to take a downturn. You gotta be ready if it doesn't, if it does, but you gotta be ready to make that next move. So start saving your money, start paying that thing down, start saving your money, start saving that next down payment. That's where your wealth gets established, isn't easy, long-term strategic moves that you make and you know, I'm no financial expert. But you don't have to be a financial expert to know to save your money, to spend less than you earn.

• 1:31:31Jocko Willink?

  And, and property to me is a good thing to invest in. It does go up and down. You know, and there's a lot of people that got crushed in the, in the market downturn in 2007 and 2008. And I was in the military, so I was buying houses and I didn't even know that the market downturned. It didn't matter to me because I had a steady job. And I just bought those properties just to, just to have properties. I wasn't buying them to flip them and sell them and all that. No, I was just like, okay. In some, some time in the future, somebody's going to be paying me rent and it's going to go in my pocket. And that sounds like a good plan to me because they're not making any more real estate by the beach, right? Um, so, so, yeah.

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  I'm not a financial genius. Talk to somebody that is smart. Talk to somebody that understands finances. But save your money, spend less than you earn. Don't be renting if, don't be renting a place if you're buying out buying a Mercedes S-Class. Or a seven series or a Range Rover. Buy a little piece of property, buy a little thing.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:32:26Jocko Willink?

  Buy a little thing. Don't, don't, just, just go buy that little something. Get in there. Get it started.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, I like this. Invest in yourself.

• 1:32:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  Because and invest in yourself. That's such a broad term, right? It's such a, and actually it's kind of started to become like a little, like a cliche. Catchphrase. Invest in yourself. But if you really think about that. You, yeah, you invest in yourself. You don't go buy, you know, I used to work in the nightclub industry, right? So I'm, and I'm now, I'm looking with my mindset now, looking back at the people I used to deal with. I used to be, see people come in there every weekend and spend a lot of money. I don't know. Maybe some of them are already a rich or, or, but. I know that if that's what you're spending your money on, you're going out and essentially just buying drinks, buying nightclub.

• 1:33:19Jocko Willink?

  Yes, there's no essential. That's what you're doing.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you throw it, thinking back, like thinking back five years ago. You spent all your money, not all your money, but you spent a bunch of money on drinks and what you have literally nothing to show for it. And in most cases, you, there's, it's going to mess you up in, in one way. You can do something you regret or whatever potentially. So think of that same five years and be like, dang, what if I started these two things that in my, you know, prediction is going to help me in five years. And let's say you did that five years ago and you did it, I don't know, you even practice it like an hour a day, whatever it is. Even just improving your knowledge on the economy or something. I don't know. Anything, anything that improves your knowledge. Five years later.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  You could, you could be essentially an expert at it.

• 1:34:07Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  So now, now just consider now, what is it that you should have got into? Cause you probably have a handful of interests that are pretty cool to you, even if it's like playing guitar. I don't know, whatever. But if you can make it something that you can anticipate in five years, it's gonna be your if you're talking about financial stuff, it's gonna help you make money. Didn't do that.

• 1:34:28Jocko Willink?

  Do that thing.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Don't and I I harp on reality TV a lot, but I think it kind of deserves it. Because you don't learn much reality TV, yet you lost like that hour. And if you spent that hour, and really you could kind of keep watching reality TV if you want, but just spend that one hour doing something that you anticipate. If you're really good at, it would help you financially. Do that thing for one hour. And then

• 1:34:55Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  One day is gonna come, you're gonna think back, oh, just the same way I'm thinking back of the five years ago. I mean, in my case, it's more than five years ago, but just the same way I'm thinking back of those people at the nightclub industry. Same way I'm thinking back about that, you're gonna be thinking back at yourself and you'd be like, dang, I'm so happy I got into that, you know?

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and there's all kinds of things you could have done. I mean, I look at the money I wasted over the years in the bars. It's ridiculous, you know, being a young seal out getting after it with the boys. Thursday, Friday, Saturday and the Sunday. That's how we used to roll.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:30Jocko Willink?

  That's how we used to roll. And it was just, hey, we'd show up, I'm the richest guy in the world.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:36Jocko Willink?

  I have all the money that I ever need and I can buy whatever I want. That's what every night was like. So not wise. Don't do that.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'll even

• 1:35:48Jocko Willink?

  Go out, have some fun. It's cool.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  You can still

• 1:35:51Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Kind of do. I'm just saying, think of that.

• 1:35:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Think of what you're doing right now and you're, because for these people and for these people I was talking about back when I used to work in nightclub industry. They are really technically, they are committed to spending their money, committed to it.

• 1:36:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  If you're doing something to every single week for years, you're committed to it.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  So just take one of those hours.

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Or take maybe 10% of that money that you're spending, or 25%, all of it, whatever, and put it in something that you anticipate.

• 1:36:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the other thing is, I mean, invest in yourself is like, actually build something, actually build a little company, you know, make something. That's what I was meant. You've got another perspective, which is also very viable and makes just as much sense. I was literally talking about, you know, from your perspective, oh, you like guitars? Cool. Figure out how to make a cool guitar stand at your house, you know? And then see if you can get that thing produced. And then, oh, it's really good. Maybe we start running production. Let's do that. That is infinitely, not only, not only will you possibly end up with some kind of a product that sells, but you'll have learned something, you've had fun, you've created something for the world, you've learned the lessons that you learned about building it and getting material, that's all gonna be worthwhile as well.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:37:05Jocko Willink?

  So, there's no, this, this, I'm not saying this with regards to that you're gonna come up with this product and you're gonna get rich. It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.

• 1:37:20Jocko Willink?

  But can you use that to build knowledge? Can you use that to gain experience that will then compound with other things in your life and eventually make you financially free because you had that discipline? Absolutely.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  That's just yes.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:37:43Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Does micromanaging ever work?

• 1:37:51Jocko Willink?

  Well, yes. And, and more importantly, does it work? Yes, sometimes it works. And more importantly, sometimes you have to micromanage.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  So, you get somebody that isn't good at their job, doesn't do a good job, doesn't show up, doesn't run things right. Of course, you know how you fix them? You gotta get in there and micromanage. Well, first of all, you can't do mission failure, so you gotta get in there and micromanage. Once you're done micromanaging, or, or, once you've got them up to speed, then you can stop micromanaging. This is, this is totally good to go. And even if you ask Leif, or, you know, the other platoon commanders that work for me, or assistant platoon commanders that work for me.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  If, when we, when they got to know me, when they met me, I was micromanage master. Cause I'm in their grill, "Hey, this, you gotta do this, no, come over here a little bit, no." And wouldn't give me any slack, but then as soon as I see that they get it, of course, then it's like, "Okay, you got this." "You got this and I'm gonna, I'm gonna macro manage and barely manage and let them run with it." And so that's, that's absolutely, micromanagement is sometimes it's a necessity. And by the way, if you're getting micromanaged, that's a little bit of a red flag. Sure, you might have somebody that's a control freak, that is a compulsive micromanager and that sucks. But you also might have somebody that doesn't trust you yet. And so how do you build up their trust? Is it by hiding from them? No, it's by being open and being like, "Hey boss, here's what I'm gonna do."

• 1:39:16Jocko Willink?

  You actually send them more information than they could even want. You show them how responsible you are, you show them what a handle you have on the situation. And that's how you can help overcome the micromanager. But if someone's not doing what they're supposed to do, or they're failing, or they're, they're letting you down, then yeah, you gotta get in their grill and micromanage them. The other time, and I sort of said this is, when you're mentoring someone, that can also be viewed as micromanagement. Cause now I'm sitting side by side, I might be breathing down your neck a little bit. And that might be viewed as micromanagement, but again, sometimes it's necessary. If you don't know the ropes yet, I gotta show you the ropes, that means I gotta sit by you and make sure you know it. Um, teaching, so if you're teaching somebody something in a work environment, that can also be viewed as micromanagement. It actually is, cause you're saying, "Hey, put this over here, put that over here."

• 1:40:01Jocko Willink?

  "Wait, back off, let me do this." "No, no, you don't know how to do it, I gotta show you how to do it, I'm teaching you how to do it." So, there's that and, and then that's teaching. And then sometimes you gotta show people how to do it. And I told that long story in here one time where I just said, "Hey, you sit and watch how I'm gonna run this squad." And I ran the squad and got fired up and told people where to go and moved on the line. And the platoon commander looked at me and said, "Okay, I can do that." And as soon as he saw it one time, he got it, so. That's sometimes micromanagement is okay. The thing is, you don't want to get stuck in the rut of micromanagement. So if I mentor you, if I teach you, if I instruct you, if I show you the way, doesn't mean stay there and keep micromanaging because you're not doing your job.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  You shouldn't have the capability or the capacity to micromanagement, to micromanage everybody that works for you. If you have that ability, you're not doing your job. You're not looking up the chain of command. You're not looking out. Your troopers, your subordinate leadership should be stepping up and leading and you should expect that of them. And if you have to micromanagement, it should be a chore that you don't like doing. And when you get in there and you micromanage for a certain amount of time, then you say, okay, you got this. You, you know, I'm, I'm stepping back. And then you gotta step back because no one likes to be micromanaged. So, once you get people up to speed, step back, let them run. Let your leaders lead.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, sometimes those people who, who like to micromanage, or they feel compelled to.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  They can fall in that trap where, where let's say they do need to micromanage and they'll get that payoff of, oh yeah, I see this guy kind of getting it. But instead of understanding the, the full scope of things where, oh, he's getting it now. I, I need to, I don't need to manage as much. They'll be like, they'll still start chasing that payoff of them getting it with their little micromanagement, you know, so they'll like constantly need that payoff.

• 1:41:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Some people, now that you mentioned, some people micromanage because their ego, that they want to, they want to exercise, they want to do two things. Exercise their power over the person, or, or show off their knowledge to the person. So those two are just such a pain. They're such a pain. But you know what? What do you do? Okay, cool. I'm gonna work harder. I'm gonna be ahead of you. I'm gonna get better at this and we're gonna move on.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that showing off knowledge thing, that, that, that, it's in a micromanagement situation, it seems like, okay, it's obvious you shouldn't do that. And, and you could probably see it from a mile away, but, but just in everyday life, that's a compelling thing to wanna show people. You ever, you ever hear someone telling you something that you already know and you just wanna tell them, bro, I already know, I know, I know, you know? Like, you don't have to explain it to me. When really, when you really kind of search your own feelings, it's, it's not that they're wasting your time. It's kind of that you just wanna let them know that I have that knowledge. Don't worry about, you know what I mean? Bro, I see that all the time. I feel that all the time. Just gotta like, like your talk. But I think that's that's a real compelling like desire, you know, to to show, hey, I already know

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  that or look how much I know, you know?

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, people definitely like that. It's it makes them feel good. Look at what I know.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Last question.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Jaco. Focus in a battle is easy. How do you keep focus in a long war?

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  I E. Long term goals.

• 1:43:32Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:43:34Jocko Willink?

  That. That that can definitely be true. It can. Be pretty easy to focus on the battle that's right in front of your face.

• 1:43:46Jocko Willink?

  And when you're doing that, sometimes you can lose track of the the long term goal. But I want to have that. That long term goal. So embedded in my mind. That I never lose sight of it. Ever. And those little tasks and projects and short term goals that you tackle, they need to lead toward that strategic victory. Winning the long war.

• 1:44:24Jocko Willink?

  And we get very caught up in. Instant gratification. We want results now. We want the shortcut. To the winner's podium.

• 1:44:39Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes, you know, when we don't get that. Short term glory that we want, we. Lose track. Of those long term goals. And you you look up in in six weeks or. In six months or in six years and.

• 1:45:00Jocko Willink?

  You've made no progress.

• 1:45:03Jocko Willink?

  None.

• 1:45:05Jocko Willink?

  You never moved.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  You you might even be further from your goal than you were.

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  Why?

• 1:45:24Jocko Willink?

  Why did you let that happen?

• 1:45:29Jocko Willink?

  It's because you lost sight of that long-term goal.

• 1:45:35Jocko Willink?

  And at some point, after you lose sight of that goal and years have gone by, you think to yourself, "Maybe I can't."

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  "Maybe I can't do it."

• 1:45:50Jocko Willink?

  And so you give up. And you let it fade.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  And you settle.

• 1:46:02Jocko Willink?

  You settle for mediocrity, you settle for average, you settle for, "Oh, well."

• 1:46:11Jocko Willink?

  But no, no. Don't do that.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  Embed that long-term goal in your mind, burn it into your soul. Think about it, and write about it, and talk about it, and hang it up on your wall. But most important, do something about it.

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Do something about it, every day, every day. Do something that moves you toward that goal, that keeps the goal alive and in sight and in focus.

• 1:46:48Jocko Willink?

  However, however small or insignificant that step might seem, take it, do it, do that little piece. Make it happen.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  Because that goal isn't going to achieve itself.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  It's all on you.

• 1:47:22Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight, which means it's time to wrap it up.

• 1:47:32Jocko Willink?

  Echo, what else do we have?

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  We have the important fact that if you're into supplements, these are supplements that we, I'm gonna speak for you for a second, we recommend, it's Onnit supplements.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  Specifically, Creole oil for your joints. And Shroom Tech for, what does it do?

• 1:47:58Jocko Willink?

  It. Metcon Performance.

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, in a nutshell, kind of boiled down, it's, it helps you utilize oxygen consumption.

• 1:48:08Jocko Willink?

  Which is a good thing.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Yes, performance, very much so. And yes, it does work. Ask anyone who's ever taken it.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  And Anna, what, where are you born? That's a good one.

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if you, if you do get these items that are gonna help you, you'll also be helping us here on the podcast.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  Yep. And you'll get helped discount wise. If you go onnit.com/jaco, 10% off.

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  If you didn't already know. That's a good one. Anyway, there's a lot of good stuff on there, supplements. You can read about them. You can read about the quality. It's.

• 1:48:42Jocko Willink?

  Some gear and equipment on there as well.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:46Jocko Willink?

  Get yourself some zombie bells.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you want. Onnit.com/jaco, 10% off all supplements.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  Or, before you do Amazon shopping, if you shop at Amazon, which I think we all do, before that, before you go to amazon.com, go to jacobodcast.com and then click on the Amazon links, like a little affiliate thing.

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Beautiful way.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Click on that, you can support Jaco Podcast.

• 1:49:10Jocko Willink?

  That's a beautiful thing.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  Easy, easy to, really easy. Trust me, I've done it before. And then, jacobstore.com, that's where if you, if you like shirts and apparel, in regards to this podcast, it's good. Some good ones, I think.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Speaking of which, if you didn't already know, we have the Trooper one, which is kinda new. It's the new stuff. If you're on YouTube. Anyway.

• 1:49:34Jocko Willink?

  That's just like the Jocko Podcast t-shirt.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and there's-

• 1:49:38Jocko Willink?

  There's no doubt what that t-shirt is.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Jocko Willink?

  Cause it says Jocko Podcast.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. Yep, it's true. And, you know, there's, I put layers. I try to put these different layers on the apparel. It's not just, "Ooh, Jocko Podcast", you know, so-

• 1:49:52Jocko Willink?

  There's a little something more to it.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Right, right. So, I'm not gonna say what it is for this one, but there's another layer to it. So, if you want, yeah, JacoStore.com, if you wanna look at it and just, just evaluate it. You like it, go and get it.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  That's a good way to support the podcast.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Yes, very much so. Or if you like the Discipline Equals Freedom, that one, which we talked about today.

• 1:50:10Jocko Willink?

  What, what is the, what is sort of the, the most popular of the t-shirts?

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  It goes in waves.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  So, I'd say generally speaking, Discipline Equals Freedom.

• 1:50:20Jocko Willink?

  Is the, is the solid seller.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that makes sense because, again, like-

• 1:50:26Jocko Willink?

  That's the mantra.

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and that's not, it seems like, oh, it's kind of intriguing as of a thing, like, Discipline Equals Freedom is kinda counterintuitive, but when you really think about it, I don't know, it's kinda impactful, I think. I think it's a good thing to live by, anyway.

• 1:50:41Jocko Willink?

  I agree with you.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, so maybe that's why, I don't know. And then, um,

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  the good one is kinda cool.

• 1:50:47Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  I think that one's more festive, you know? But yeah, there's a few on there, some stickers and some mugs as well, if, um, but yeah, if you go on there, JacoStore.com, like I said, and, you know, whichever one you like.

• 1:51:01Jocko Willink?

  Go with it.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  Get that one, yeah, go with it.

• 1:51:03Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate the support.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:51:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, you can also support the podcast by, by hitting us up on the interwebs. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink, that's on Twitter, on the Facebooky, and even on Instagram. I primarily respond on the Twitter, if you have a question. But I do look at the other ones as well. Uh, so thanks for supporting that way, thanks for downloading, thanks for subscribing, thanks for spreading the word, but most of all, thanks for staying focused

• 1:51:46Jocko Willink?

  on those long-term goals that you have, those dreams that you got. And for keeping those in mind as you go out there.

• 1:52:02Jocko Willink?

  And get after it.

• 1:52:06Jocko Willink?

  And so, until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.

• 1:52:13Jocko Willink?

  Out.