Cheryl Hines: Stories From “Curb Your Enthusiasm” and Sticking by RFK on His Way to the White House

If Cheryl Hines hadn’t married Bobby Kennedy, she might never have known just how cruel and intolerant Hollywood is. (00:00) The Odd Beginnings of Cheryl’s Acting Career (15:56) The Predatory Nature of Hollywood (26:54) How Cheryl Secured Her Role in “Curb Your Enthusiasm” (33:07) What Is Larry David Like in Private? (36:18) How Larry David Introduced Cheryl to Bobby Kennedy Jr. (53:28) How Did Bobby's Political Career Impact Cheryl's Acting Career? (1:27:26) Cheryl's Reaction to Bobby's Endorsement of Donald Trump Paid partnerships with: Dutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Levels: Get 2 free months on annual membership at https://Levels. Link/Tucker Last Country Supply: Real prep starts with the basics. Here’s what I keep stocked: lastcountrysupply.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:25Tucker Carlson?

  Cheryl Hines, thank you for coming all the way out here. You were talking at breakfast, your life, the trajectory is like pretty amazing. You are very far from where you started.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  That is true.

• 0:38Tucker Carlson?

  Where did you start?

• 0:40Speaker 02

  I started in Florida, in Orlando, Florida. You know, I grew up in Orlando and Tallahassee. And then one day I drove my Toyota Tercel across the country to Los Angeles.

• 0:56Tucker Carlson?

  By yourself?

• 0:57Speaker 02

  No, I was dating a guy and I said, you know, I'm moving to LA. And when it came time to move, he was very sad and I said, can I ride with you? And I said, please don't. And he said, no, please, please, I just want to get out of, I want to see the country. I've never seen the country. So we broke up and then we drove across the country together.

• 1:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's awkward.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  It was very awkward.

• 1:45Tucker Carlson?

  Why did you move to LA?

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Why did I move to LA?

• 1:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Because I knew I was going to move to, because I always wanted to be an actress. And I knew it was going to be New York or LA, but I knew two people in LA. One guy from my high school and another guy who was a family friend. One of my brother's best friends. So I knew two people. So I thought, okay, then that makes more sense, LA.

• 2:10Tucker Carlson?

  Were they like CIA or were they like powerful agents, those two people?

• 2:16Speaker 02

  No. Uh, no, no, not at all. Well, actually, um, so my, one of my best friends, Paul Beckett, he had, he, we ended high school together and he moved out there and he was a professional, um, background actor.

• 2:34Tucker Carlson?

  What's a background?

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Like an extra.

• 2:36Tucker Carlson?

  Is that what they call them? Background?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes.

• 2:39Tucker Carlson?

  What is that life like?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  He loved it because it was, it was, you know, day to day, you get a project. You don't have to prepare much. You just show up.

• 2:53Tucker Carlson?

  Lines to memorize.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  No lines to memorize. You know what the hardest thing about doing background work? Have you ever done background work?

• 3:00Tucker Carlson?

  No, I've been in the background at a lot of events, but I've never been paid for it.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  It's harder than it seems because, you know, if you're, if they're shooting a party scene and your background, you have to stand behind the main actors and act like you're talking, but you can never say anything. So it's a lot of.

• 3:23Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you can't actually speak out.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  No, you can't speak out loud, but you just, you just, uh, you act like you're talking and you make eye contact with the person that you're talking to, and then you take turns mouthing words, but try not to look crazy doing it.

• 3:38Tucker Carlson?

  That sounds really hard, actually.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  It's hard. I found it to be hard.

• 3:42Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, you did it?

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Because you have to do it as an actor too, because sometimes, you know, you're shooting something and the per, and that's somebody else's coverage. And so they ask you not to actually say words out loud while they're doing their dialogue. It's even like clapping. Usually when you see people clapping.

• 4:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  They're not actually making noise.

• 4:04Tucker Carlson?

  Seriously?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  They put that in later. Yeah.

• 4:07Tucker Carlson?

  Do they have like hand muffs to keep it from?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  No, you're just a professional and you know not to.

• 4:12Tucker Carlson?

  Not to touch.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Not to touch.

• 4:14Tucker Carlson?

  So how did you go? So you show up not knowing anybody except one extra went to your high school and then you wind up succeeding. How hard is that?

• 4:23Speaker 02

  It was hard.

• 4:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  It was hard. Um, I, you know, I got a bartending job, which actually was also hard. You wouldn't.

• 4:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it's a hard job.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  It's, it's a hard job. And in LA, it was hard to get a job as a bartender or as a waitress, because everybody's doing that, because everybody is trying to, you know, get a job as an actor or writer. So even to get those jobs are hard in LA. But, um, but I managed to get a job in this hotel in downtown LA. It was the Intercontinental. I think they've changed it since then, but. So that was good. I did that. And then it just, it took a year for me to work in that, in that hotel, in that bar, to just sort of get used to LA. And at that time, you would send out your headshot and resume

• 5:19Speaker 02

  to all of the agents in town and hope that somebody would be interested in, just from looking at your picture, be interested in meeting with you. And I didn't do it. I wasn't ready for the rejection, because I thought, what if I send out a picture and resume to every agent in this town and none of them want me? I wasn't ready. I didn't have a plan. What would be the plan? So until I was ready with that, hmm, that form of rejection, I, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

• 5:56Tucker Carlson?

  How did you get, how do you prepare for that kind of rejection?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Uh, a lot of self pep talks. You know, where you're, I would just say, okay, what's gonna happen? This is probably gonna happen. Probably not one person is gonna respond. And who, who are you gonna be? Is it gonna change you if nobody responds? And for the first year of my life there, I thought, yeah, it'll change me. It'll break me. It'll, this is the only thing I've ever wanted to do. So, but, but after I was there for a while, I, I realized, okay, my self-worth doesn't depend on if somebody looks at my picture

• 6:41Speaker 02

  and decides they want to represent me or not. I finally got to that place where I, I realized, okay, life is going to go on. I'm going to be the same person. I'm still going to be an actress. I'll just have to do it a different way.

• 6:55Tucker Carlson?

  And this was before you'd sent a single headshot to a single agent. That's pretty self-aware.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Well, uh, I guess I just didn't want to, I didn't want to, even though was the only thing I wanted to do. It's the only thing I've ever wanted to accomplish. And I thought, well, is my life going to be over at 25? If I can't, am I going to let them decide if I'm successful or not, these agents? So, yeah, I had to, I had to get to that place.

• 7:36Tucker Carlson?

  So then, how did you get in?

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Well, then I sent my, I sent them all out and I did get a response. And let's just say, it wasn't one of the big agencies.

• 7:52Tucker Carlson?

  But was it a legitimate agency?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I'll say yes. There are so many agencies in Los Angeles. And really, there are a handful that are, I mean, there are a lot that are legitimate, but there are really only a handful that are powerful.

• 8:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  It wasn't one of the powerful ones. As a matter of fact, I was, I was, I wasn't getting any auditions. They never sent me out on one audition. But, um, remember the Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan?

• 8:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, very well. And Jeff Galulie, yes.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Jeff Galulie. And so, there was a, um, you can, you used to be able to see the, the breakdowns for what they were casting. They would come out on something. So I would read the breakdowns to see what people were casting for. And at the time, people were telling me I looked like Nancy Kerrigan. Yeah. So I thought, okay, well, maybe I should, there was a TV movie for this for Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan. So I thought I should at least go in. And so I knew my agent was not submitting me, or if they did, nobody's opening that. Or I thought they probably weren't. So I, I put my

• 9:15Speaker 02

  headshot and resume in. I put a post-it on my picture that said, you should see her for Nancy, exclamation point. I didn't sign it because I didn't want anyone to think that, that I was

• 9:33Speaker 02

  doing anything underhanded. And then for the return address, I put my agent's address and I got called in.

• 9:41Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, you pitched yourself on behalf of your agent?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 9:44Tucker Carlson?

  Did your agent get a cut of the fee?

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't book it. But my agent, but my agent called, he was like, guess what? I've got an audition for you. I was like, uh huh, about Nancy Kerrigan. Actually, but I did have a really good audition and I may have been called back because it, there was a lot of talk about ice skating. Did I know how to ice skate?

• 10:09Tucker Carlson?

  And growing up in Tallahassee, probably a pretty good ice skater.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm a great ice skater. And I said, um, you know, I know, of course, I know how to ice skate. And they were like, okay. I think I, I think I got called back because when I got called back, I do remember there were four girls that looked a lot like Tonya Harding, and four girls that looked like a lot like Nancy Kerrigan. And I was just sitting in this room, just looking around like, wow, this is weird.

• 10:47Tucker Carlson?

  I think you'd rather be on the Nancy Kerrigan side.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  I guess.

• 10:51Tucker Carlson?

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• 11:33Tucker Carlson?

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• 12:16Tucker Carlson?

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• 13:19Speaker 04

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• 14:01Speaker 04

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• 14:12Tucker Carlson?

  So what was the first actual part? That you got?

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Um.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Well, that's when I was living in Orlando.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  I, it was for. It was for Swamp Thing. The TV show inspired by the movie.

• 14:30Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Swamp Thing.

• 14:32Tucker Carlson?

  I missed the whole Swamp Thing genre.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's too bad.

• 14:37Tucker Carlson?

  Was it a straight to video enterprise or what was it?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  What Swamp Thing?

• 14:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  The movie?

• 14:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  No, it was a hit movie.

• 14:45Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes.

• 14:48Tucker Carlson?

  Wow, I'm embarrassed.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  You should be.

• 14:50Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, I was in boarding school, I think.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:53Tucker Carlson?

  No movies.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  You guys weren't allowed to watch that. And then the TV show, I was an evil scientist.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  And in this, in the show, I am holding a gun. I'm like about to shoot another scientist. And I hear a beeping sound because earlier in the episode, I had pulled the plug on my stepfather's life support machine.

• 15:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  And now I'm hearing a beeping sound and it's driving me crazy. And then I, I dropped the gun, I clutched my heart and I die. And I said, I said to the director, I said, before we shot it, I said, just so I'm clear, what exactly am I dying of? I mean, I know, you know, we're talking about Telltale Heart, where the beeping is driving you crazy and can anybody else hear it? All of that. I said, but what is the thing that's actually killing me? And he said, Cheryl, we don't have time for this. What you just need to drop the gun. And then the gun handler, who, you know, was somebody on set that's there for gun safety

• 16:11Speaker 02

  and shows you how to handle the gun. He was like, please don't drop the gun. He said, if you could just, can you, can you lay it on the couch on your way down to the floor? I was like, oh, okay. So I had to, he said, the director was like, just clutch your heart. It's, I said, so a heart attack? And he's like, that's fine. Yeah, that's it. That's fine. We gotta go. So that was my, so I died. Big death scene. Exciting. And that was my big first role. That's why I moved to LA.

• 16:45Tucker Carlson?

  Because you were hooked.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Well, because I, this was my springboard to stardom.

• 16:54Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'm not, I'm not mocking.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Well, because I just got, I just got this role and there was nothing else really shooting in Orlando.

• 17:02Tucker Carlson?

  Probably not.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  So I thought, okay, this is a good time to go to LA. Swamp Thing is gonna come out. The agents in LA are gonna see it.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  And my phone will ring off the hook. Um, and then I called my sister, cause she was still in Orlando. Uh, when it came out and I said, so did you, did you watch it? How was it? Cause you know, we were three hours, uh, later, earlier, later. And she said, um, you should start drinking now.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  So we did, then we had a Swamp Thing watch party. Um, and it was fun. I mean, what, this was not like, uh, nobody got Golden Globes from Swamp Thing.

• 17:52Tucker Carlson?

  No one.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  No, not, no. Um, and my phone didn't ring after.

• 17:58Tucker Carlson?

  So how long did it take you from the day you got to LA till you thought, I'm successful now?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Uh, 10 years?

• 18:10Tucker Carlson?

  10 years?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:12Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:15Tucker Carlson?

  How predatory is LA? It feels that way to me.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  In what way?

• 18:21Tucker Carlson?

  It feels like there's a lot of ambitious people. And then there are a lot of people with power taking advantage of those ambitious people. That's the way it feels.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Uh, there is definitely that. There is definitely that. I had one experience that I actually talked about in my book, Unscripted. Uh, where there was a director that approached me and said, will you meet me in my hotel room? I want to talk to you about a film. And at that point I had a different agent. I had a better agent. Um, and I, and I was on Curb at the time. And I said, well, I talked to my agent and I said,

• 19:10Tucker Carlson?

  You're on Curb, your enthusiasm, when he called you?

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Uh, you know what? I think I, I think we had shot it, but it hadn't aired.

• 19:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Oh, because I met him in, uh, at a drugstore in LA.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, he, this, this person has since been

• 19:33Speaker 02

  exposed, if you will. And he came up to me and said, oh, you know, I mean, I guess I could tell you the name.

• 19:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Okay. It's James Toback.

• 19:46Tucker Carlson?

  James Toback.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  So he wrote, um, what did he write that a Bugsy? He wrote the film Bugsy? He's a successful director, writer. And I thought, well, this is a legitimate person. And my agent said, I think you should meet him. And I said, even if it's at

• 20:06Speaker 02

  in his hotel room.

• 20:07Tucker Carlson?

  It's a little weird. Yeah. How about the Polo Lounge?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he said, you know, people do this all the time. This was a while ago.

• 20:16Tucker Carlson?

  This is all the time.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  This was probably what I was, this was probably, uh, how long ago? Uh, 20 years ago. No, no, more than that. 25 years ago, at least. And, um, I felt strange going into a man's hotel room on a Friday night. So I asked my friends to come with me. I said, will you guys wait in the Polo Lounge? I said, this is

• 20:43Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it was in the Beverly Hills Hotel?

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:45Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's just perfect.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Am I allowed to say that? And then I, I gave him the room number. I said, if you don't hear from me in whatever it was, 30 minutes, come knock on this room. Cause I don't know if I'm going to have phone reception. I don't know what's going to happen. Probably, it's probably all going to be fine. But if you don't hear from me, just come to the room. And so when I got to his room, I said,

• 21:07Speaker 02

  uh, just so you know, I have, my friends are waiting for me downstairs. And, you know, he said, okay, or whatever. I, I did not get the vibe that it was a

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Weird situation. And then he starts talking and then he's, you know, telling me, you really have to be willing to step out of your comfort zone as an actor. You have to, you know, and he's asking me, do you feel like you can do that? I said, well, of course I can. I'm a, I'm an actress. I'm, I'm a trained actress is what I, we do all the time. And so then he, then he starts asking me strange questions.

• 21:53Tucker Carlson?

  Like what?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Uh, do I have a lot of body hair?

• 21:57Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have a lot of body hair?

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 22:00Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  And I.

• 22:02Tucker Carlson?

  That's not usually part of the woo.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  It's really not. And I felt that.

• 22:06Tucker Carlson?

  You have a lot of body hair for an opening line? That doesn't seem effective to me. Does that, I'm not a woman though. Does that work?

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. I fell madly in love that night. We had tons of kids and we're happy. Um, and you know, I was like, okay, well, uh, I can't say that I do. I'm like looking at the hair on my arms. I'm like, you can't really see it. I don't know. I don't know where this is going, you know? And then he says, you, you want to take off your shoes and get comfortable? I said, oh, I'm, I'm comfortable. And he said, you don't want to take off your shoes? And I said, I don't, I'm, I'm totally comfortable. Don't worry about me. And I was wearing boots and he said, will you, he said, why don't you take off one boot?

• 22:55Tucker Carlson?

  Come on.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  And at this point, I'm like.

• 22:58Tucker Carlson?

  Men are so creepy. I'm, I'm sorry.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  I'm like one boot. And I'm thinking to myself, why one boot? Like where is this going? Why would it be one boot? But for whatever reason, I was sort of intrigued, like, why one boot? So I took off one boot. I left my sock on and then he starts talking again. And then my friends knock on the door and I said, oh.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  That must be my friends. And he looked at me like, what are you talking about? And I went and I opened the door and they were all, it was like, it was like an episode of Friends where they're all, all their heads are in the doorway like, Cheryl. And one of my friends looked at my feet and he said, where's your boot? I said, oh, it's over by the couch. And he goes, get your boot, we're going. And they were all like, yeah, get your boot, you're out of here. And I said, yeah, it is weird, isn't it? And he said, yeah, it's weird.

• 23:57Tucker Carlson?

  It's so weird.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  And then I left.

• 24:00Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever talk to him again?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  No, but, you know, he was sued by a lot of women because he would, this is what he'd do. He would, because he is a successful person, director, writer, he would go up to women in New York and LA and say, I'm James Toback, you must know me. Why don't you come over to my place? I want to work on something with you or show you a script or whatever. And, oh, and his thing was apparently that he liked feet.

• 24:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that is a thing.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  And, and he would manipulate these women, overpower them and do sexually provocative things.

• 24:59Tucker Carlson?

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• 25:27Tucker Carlson?

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• 26:06Tucker Carlson?

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• 26:47Tucker Carlson?

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• 27:28Speaker 00

  This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 28:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I don't see feet as sexually provocative. Maybe I'm the weirdo.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  No, same. I have, and in the moment, I don't know, it never occurred to me that this would do. It never occurred to me that this is a weird guy who's trying to, oh, you know, do something sexual. I mean, it, I guess it was, it's sort of a slow burn, you know, because a lot of stuff you do as an actor is weird. There, there are a lot of things that are not normal, that are odd, that are out of your comfort zone.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  You know, you're showing up on a set and kissing a person that you just met, and that's, that's part of your job. If that's your role, that's the scene. So there are things that happen that are just strange and also normal at the same time. So, you know, taking one boot off. I just didn't think that that was.

• 29:34Tucker Carlson?

  Did the script call for that?

• 29:36Speaker 02

  No, I didn't, I had no idea if the script would go for that. But I didn't, um, I can understand how a woman that's in a spotlight that, it's a very vulnerable place for them to be. And if I didn't have my friends on the other side of the door, um, I don't know what would, I don't know what would have happened. I don't know. But anyway, what was your question? It was, it was something about taking advantage.

• 30:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, are there predators in Hollywood? And I, I think you.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  And that's my predator story.

• 30:11Tucker Carlson?

  So how did you wind up on Curb Your Enthusiasm?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Hmm. Well. I started studying at the Groundlings Theater in LA, which is, um, it's an improv and sketch comedy theater. And I was studying improv and performing. And at that point, I had gotten a better agent. And, um, and I started to go out on auditions. I was auditioning for different pilots, different, different TV shows.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  And I got called in to do, to audition for a one hour special. It was just, they were just calling it the Larry David unscripted or untitled special. And so

• 31:01Speaker 02

  I, I went in and I, well, I was gonna, I was scheduled to audition and then they called me and they said, we're running behind because there's no script. It's all improvised and it's taking longer than we thought. So I don't know when you're going to be able to go in. And then that night I was performing in, um, in a sketch comedy show.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  And I was, I was performing a sketch that I had written. And the producer, director of the one hour

• 31:36Speaker 02

  show was in the audience and really liked the sketch and thought that my sense of humor and Larry's would match up.

• 31:46Tucker Carlson?

  You didn't know him?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  I never met him.

• 31:49Tucker Carlson?

  Did you know who he was?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, I knew that he co-created Seinfeld with Jerry Seinfeld.

• 31:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  That's all I knew.

• 31:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. He was not a public figure.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  I didn't know what, I didn't know what he looked like. I didn't know anything about him. Um,

• 32:04Speaker 02

  and so I wasn't, it was probably good that I didn't, because I wasn't intimidated, because I didn't even know who he was. I knew he was a lot older than me. And I knew I was going in to play, to audition for his wife. And I felt like I'm, I don't know if I'm right for this part, but I'll go in and try to have a great audition and see what happens. Maybe there's a different part, you know? And then, uh,

• 32:33Speaker 02

  and then when I walked in, I mean, the sketch that

• 32:41Speaker 02

  sort of opened the door for me.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Was about a woman in, in her workplace and this guy comes in to

• 32:56Speaker 02

  do a safety, like go over safety procedures in an earthquake. And everybody in the office seemed to know what to do in case of an earthquake. And they were answering all the questions, right? Oh, if, uh, do you light a match after an earthquake? And somebody said, no, because there could be a gas leak. And I'm thinking, whoa, how did they even know that? And, you know, should you walk around without shoes on? No, because there could be broken glass. And then they said, what do you do if your water supply runs out? And I said, well, if push comes to shove, you can drink your own urine.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And my coworkers were like, that's gross. I said, well, I mean, I don't. And they said, that's really gross. And so the rest of the sketch was they're trying to move on, you know? Okay, let's, do you call your friends? And I go, just to be clear, I don't drink my own urine. I'm not, I never, I'm not going to come home and drink my own urine. And they're like, we, we get it. We've got to finish this seminar and I, and I won't let it go, you know? At the, and I said, look, I'm going to say right now, I'm not going to drink my own urine. Even, even if there's an apocalypse and the only way to survive is to drink your urine. I'm not drinking my urine. I want you guys to know right now, I'm not drinking my urine.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  So that was the sketch that, that Bob Whitey saw that, and he brought me in the next day to meet Larry. And then when I walked in for the audition, he said, oh, the urine girl is here.

• 34:36Tucker Carlson?

  So that's the sketch that you wrote?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the sketch.

• 34:38Tucker Carlson?

  That does sound like something from Kherpian.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  So Bob thought that Larry would appreciate that sort of sense of humor.

• 34:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, that turns out to be a perfect match.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:50Tucker Carlson?

  How long were you on that show?

• 34:52Speaker 02

  The show was on for 24 years.

• 34:55Tucker Carlson?

  24 years?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  24 years. Yes, and there were 12 seasons. So there were some seasons when there were some, there was like a four hour, a four hour, a four year break between some seasons. It was, it wasn't consecutive, like most TV shows, like

• 35:15Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Uh, because it was Larry David and Larry wanted to only do shows when he felt inspired.

• 35:26Tucker Carlson?

  Smart.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he felt like after, even after the first season, I thought that was the end of the show. Cause he said that was the end of the show. And then I get a call and say, oh, we're going to do another season. I was like, that's amazing. So every season it was like that. And then one time I got a call from him and he said, uh, I've, I've got some bad news. I said, okay. And he said, we're gonna do, we're gonna do another season, but you're not going to be in it. I said, okay. I mean, that's okay. And, uh, and then they did a season in New York that I wasn't in. And in the show, Larry and I had gotten

• 36:10Speaker 02

  divorced. And then the season after that, he brought me back into the show as his ex-wife. But it was over 24 years that all this took place.

• 36:22Tucker Carlson?

  That's wild. So you got to know him well, of course. What's he like?

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Um, well, of course he's very, very smart, very funny. Um, he, he's very caring. I know. It doesn't seem like it, but he's, he's very caring about people close to him. Uh, and, uh, he's neurotic.

• 36:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. So basically

• 36:58Speaker 02

  I'm not breaking news. So basically

• 37:00Tucker Carlson?

  It's real.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  It's a lot of it's real.

• 37:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:05Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries. A total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously it's America.

• 37:20Tucker Carlson?

  People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice. The last few years have taught us that. Remember when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened, and it could happen again. So the government is not actually as reliable as you hope they would be. And the truth is, the future is unforeseeable. And things do seem to be getting a little squirrely. So if the grid does go down, you need power you can trust. Last Country Supply's newest product is designed for exactly that. The Grid Doctor is a 3,300-watt battery backup system that will power full-size appliances, medical devices, and tools with clean, reliable power. It's even EMP-protected. That means it's shielded from lightning, solar flares,

• 38:04Tucker Carlson?

  or an actual electromagnetic pulse event. There's no gasoline, no noise, no emissions. You just plug it in, charge it from the wall, from your vehicle, or from the included 200-watt solar panel, and keep going, day after day, taking care of yourself and the people you love is solely up to you. And the amazing thing is, with these new batteries, we use one at home, by the way, is they're super easy to use. There's no inverter you need to figure out on the front of it or anything like that. There's like three buttons. It's very easy and totally reliable. Highly recommended. We literally use one, as I said. Visit lastcountrysupply.com to shop the Grid Doctor for power you can trust this winter. Last Country Supply.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Now for a quick message from Anthropic, the team behind Claude, the AI built for businesses. Customers count on their bank, and banks count on their most important systems. Now those systems count on Claude, and nine of the Fortune 10 companies use it for critical work. See why leading companies trust Claude at claude.ai/span.

• 39:13Speaker 05

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 39:42Tucker Carlson?

  Dot com. 24 years is a long time to spend with the same people.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:47Tucker Carlson?

  Did you get along with all of them?

• 39:48Speaker 02

  I did.

• 39:49Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I loved all of them. And I mean, I still do. And our crew, we would have, we had a few crew members that were with us from the beginning. And you know what? It was very sweet, too, because there was so much time that was passing and we all were, we had kids and then we watched our kids grow up. And then we, you know, some cast members would have their kids as interns on the show. So it was sweet, you know? They were just a real part of my life.

• 40:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it sounds like that was a lot of your adult life.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, yeah.

• 40:29Tucker Carlson?

  And you met your husband through the show or through Larry?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, through Larry. I mean, I met Bobby, Robert Kennedy Jr. through, I mean, Larry just introduced us, you know? Larry and I went to a Waterkeeper event and he just introduced me to Bobby. Not in any way like you guys should, you know, have anything to do with each other. It was just like, this is Cheryl, this is Bobby. So that was the first time I met him. Yeah.

• 41:02Tucker Carlson?

  What'd you think?

• 41:04Speaker 02

  I thought, I thought he was nice. He, you know, he was a great speaker. Bobby was a great speaker. I saw him speak at the event. And also, I just remember, oh, that's a pleated khakis guy.

• 41:22Tucker Carlson?

  A pleated khakis guy?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, a guy that wears pleated khakis.

• 41:26Tucker Carlson?

  Is that a plus or a minus?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Well, hmm, is it a plus or a minus? I think, growing up in Tallahassee, I had a lot of guy friends that...

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Wore pleated khakis and it was kind of a, it reminds me of a hmm, like a football coach type of a, it's to me at the time, it felt like not a creative type person that I was used to. I don't know if that makes sense.

• 42:00Tucker Carlson?

  The pleated khakis are the not, they're the more non-creative.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:04Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting. I don't think pleated khakis exist anymore.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  I'm glad.

• 42:07Tucker Carlson?

  I am too. That was a sad face.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  It was a sad face.

• 42:11Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  I mean, listen, they weren't good for guys or girls.

• 42:14Tucker Carlson?

  Right. I agree. I never fell for it. I'm not bragging.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 42:17Tucker Carlson?

  Never, no.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  That's good. So, yeah, so what I.

• 42:19Tucker Carlson?

  I forgot that even happened.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Ah, it was burned into my brain.

• 42:24Tucker Carlson?

  It was. So it was part of the appeal. I gotta fix this.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  No, I mean, that part of the thing was just like, oh, he's a pleated khakis guy. You know, okay, that's nice.

• 42:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  So, but yes, then when years later, when we got together, I was.

• 42:42Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it was years?

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Because when I met him, he was, he was married. I was married to different people. So it was not at all like, there was no spark or interest or anything like that. It was just a casual acquaintance. And, and then I stayed involved with Waterkeeper and I would see Bobby once a year, I think, at a Waterkeeper event. And it was, he was always pleasant, always nice, but we, I really never even spoke to him that much because it was always a big event. And, um, and then I got, I got divorced.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  He got divorced. We were going through divorce and I was gonna see him and I thought, oh, this is interesting. Like six years later, however long, um.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  It'll be interesting to see him because it's hard, it's hard going through a divorce. And it's hard even talking to somebody about it because nobody, unless you're going through it, nobody wants to talk about it.

• 43:51Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's right.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  And even if you're going through it, you might want to not want to talk about it. But anyway, when I saw him, I said, how are you doing? And he said, good. I said, how are you really doing? And he said, good, well, we should talk. I said, okay. And then, and then we started talking and I just, it was really the first time I talked to him as a person, as a, he was

• 44:19Speaker 02

  very, very dynamic, you know, he's a dynamic person and I just saw him in a different way for, for the first time. And I,

• 44:32Speaker 02

  I was really taken with him.

• 44:36Tucker Carlson?

  What did your friends think?

• 44:39Speaker 02

  They, you know, my friends,

• 44:43Speaker 02

  they thought it was fun. But you know, at the time Bobby was living in New York, I was living in, in LA. Bobby was an environmental attorney and everybody loved him.

• 44:58Tucker Carlson?

  I remember.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Except for the big corporations that he was suing. Yeah. Uh, so, you know, it was just a kind of a fun

• 45:09Speaker 02

  situation.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  And they wanted to hear the highlights, you know, my friends. But it wasn't, it didn't seem like it was going to be anything

• 45:22Speaker 02

  permanent.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  So I don't know, but it was just, it wasn't, didn't seem like a big thing at first.

• 45:33Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, a lot of things start that way.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:36Tucker Carlson?

  So then you marry him, you're famous, he's famous. Probably easier to marry someone who understands what that is, I would think.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Seems like it. I understand why people,

• 45:49Speaker 02

  I mean, it has its,

• 45:53Speaker 02

  its pluses and minuses, right?

• 45:55Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Because probably two people that are known or, you know, well-known or whatever that looks like.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  They're only known in certain circles.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  So I don't know, they're probably two famous people that feel, somebody feels left out while the other person's shining or whatever that looks like. So there might be that.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  I know that to be true with friends that are actors, you know, two actors together and sometimes or a director and an actor and their career is doing great and the other one is, you know, in a different pocket in their career. That can be tough, but it was good for me and Bobby because

• 46:45Speaker 02

  we were in different worlds.

• 46:46Tucker Carlson?

  Completely.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I remember early on when we were going through the airport together and somebody stopped him and said, you know, what you're doing is amazing. What you're doing is so important for the environment, for our country, for people, for people's health. Thank you so much. Almost in tears. And I said, wow, that was really nice. And then we keep going through and then this guy said, oh my gosh, that diarrhea scene that you did in the car wash? That killed me. And I was like, thank you. And I look at Bobby like, ha ha. You're not the only one. So we had a, it was fun getting together with him in that way.

• 47:33Tucker Carlson?

  And then he moved out to LA.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Well, then he asked me to marry him. And I said, I don't, I don't really want to get married if we're going to live in different states.

• 47:45Tucker Carlson?

  Fair.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Right? And he said, okay, I'll come out there.

• 47:52Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm making it sound easy. It wasn't an easy decision, but yeah, that's what happened.

• 47:59Tucker Carlson?

  And just from the outside looking in, things go great and then COVID happens. And Bobby goes from being controversial to being really controversial.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Yes, you can say that. Yeah.

• 48:12Tucker Carlson?

  Fair.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  That's very fair to say.

• 48:15Tucker Carlson?

  And more love, too. Not just more hated, but but more prominent.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Also more prominent and started really speaking to a lot of people. And it was hard to being in LA or challenging perhaps because the I would say the majority of the people in LA that I was encountering

• 48:46Speaker 02

  did not agree with him.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  And they could not imagine anybody agreeing with him. But the reality was there were millions of people across the country that did were agreeing with him.

• 49:03Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  But it was hard to see that in LA. But that's what was happening.

• 49:08Tucker Carlson?

  Did anyone say anything to you about it, like at work?

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:15Tucker Carlson?

  What did they say? I'm so impressed by how brave your husband is.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Actually, I did get some of those.

• 49:22Tucker Carlson?

  I bet you did.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  I got I did get some of those, but I also got, what is he doing?

• 49:31Speaker 02

  You've got to stop him.

• 49:34Tucker Carlson?

  You've got to stop him?

• 49:36Speaker 02

  I got a lot of that.

• 49:37Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:41Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Like, it's.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  You know, the whole, I can't believe I'm the first one saying it, the whole vaccine issue, people were so passionate about it, one way or the other. And the people, and there were a lot of people that felt like, if we don't all take this vaccine, we're all gonna die. And if you don't take it, you're gonna kill us. So the, so people really felt like that and, and would tell me that.

• 50:17Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:19Tucker Carlson?

  You know, I didn't have very strong feelings about vaccines, one way or the other, my whole life. I never really thought about it. I didn't realize that it was a religion to a lot of people.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  And political.

• 50:29Tucker Carlson?

  Well, but that, you know, it's religion, because that doesn't make any sense. If the vaccine is effective, and you take it, then you're good to go.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:37Tucker Carlson?

  Why does it matter if I take it?

• 50:38Speaker 02

  If somebody else does it.

• 50:40Tucker Carlson?

  Did anyone, I heard smart people make that case, people I thought were smart, but doesn't make any sense, just on the face of it.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't make any sense. And that, and that wasn't enough for people.

• 50:53Tucker Carlson?

  It wasn't?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't enough for someone to be able to take the vaccine and feel like, woo, I'm, I'm okay now. I don't care what you do.

• 51:03Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  It wasn't enough.

• 51:05Tucker Carlson?

  So the, my body, my choice was not a real thing, it turned out?

• 51:09Speaker 02

  No, no, it was like, and I want to, I need to get involved with your body.

• 51:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it's your body, my choice.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Your body, my choice, yeah.

• 51:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. And feminism is also obviously fake, because why would you hold a woman responsible for her husband's views?

• 51:25Speaker 02

  That's a fair question.

• 51:26Tucker Carlson?

  You'd be like, well, you know, you're a, a human being, like with autonomy and stuff, and you're responsible for your views, but your husband is a different person, not the same as you. And he's got his views, so they're not your fault, right?

• 51:38Speaker 02

  That one would think, but that's also not the case.

• 51:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 51:44Tucker Carlson?

  How did, so as, but this went on and on and on. It wasn't like a flu season. It was like years, and it got more intense.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:55Tucker Carlson?

  What was that like for you?

• 51:58Speaker 02

  It was stressful. It was stressful. And it was loud. You know, it felt like the conversation was loud. And it was, you know, what was really hard, I thought, was

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Like I said, both sides, I felt like both sides were pretty loud. And so even if you would find out that maybe somebody had passed away,

• 52:26Speaker 02

  it seemed like both sides wanted to know, was that, was that person vaccinated? Was that the reason? They weren't, or is that the reason?

• 52:33Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  And it made me sad because I, I had several friends that passed away during that time. And it felt like we were talking about the wrong things at the moment.

• 52:46Tucker Carlson?

  You think?

• 52:49Speaker 02

  It's not, why are we talking about the person that just passed away? Who, who they were and how they affected our lives, you know? So I hated it. I hated it.

• 52:59Tucker Carlson?

  How can I use other people's deaths to score political points?

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hated it.

• 53:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, good.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  So that was hard.

• 53:06Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's a measure of your decency that you hated that. No, it is. It is. Someone dies, you should

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Take, take them all.

• 53:12Tucker Carlson?

  Mourn the person's death, right?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  That's what it's all about. Who was that person? How did they remain in your life?

• 53:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  And what do they leave behind?

• 53:23Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  But when it goes quickly from, you skip over that conversation, it was just

• 53:32Speaker 02

  hard.

• 53:33Tucker Carlson?

  I think it was hard for people to accept that vaccinated people ever die. Cause it's magic and you live forever when you get a vaccine. And I think they were like, oh, there's gotta be some way to explain that. Like, how could a vaccinated person die?

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Well, it felt like both, it felt, once again, it felt like both sides were,

• 53:54Speaker 02

  well, yes, they got the vaccine and then they got COVID, but they would have died if they did get the vaccine or, you know, it's, it's sort of like that you could fit, fit different scenarios into your own narrative.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Which was also annoying. And, you know, studies, so many talks of studies. Well, I can show you a study that shows this. I can show you a study that shows that. And it's just about back and forth. And it's like being in a courtroom and you're watching both sides. You have an expert and the expert will say 100%, you know, if you pick up this glass, you will die. And then the other experts say 100% that is not true. Here's a study that shows something completely different. So it just felt like there was a lot of that going

• 54:48Speaker 02

  on. It still is a lot of that going on. Instead of, to me, what I, what I have a hard time understanding is instead of always pointing the finger and saying, you're wrong, you better listen to me, you're wrong. Instead of that, and two people saying, okay, let's talk about this because it is a problem.

• 55:12Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  There's a huge problem here. It's a crisis. A lot of people are suffering. How can we figure it out? Like, show me what you've got. I'll show you what I've got. Let's, is there a cross section? Why aren't these two sides working together? That's what I don't understand.

• 55:33Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's helpful to begin the conversation with here's how I've been wrong. And then everyone calms down, you know?

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Does anybody start with that?

• 55:42Tucker Carlson?

  It works.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  It does work.

• 55:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, because it's the ultimate display of good faith. I've been wrong. And here's how. And then you deescalate immediately. But when you begin with, you know, here are the eight things I don't like about you.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:54Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't go very far. So at this time, your husband is at home writing The Real Anthony Fauci.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 56:00Tucker Carlson?

  An amazing book, bestseller, despite long odds. And what was that like? Did you talk to him about it as he was writing it?

• 56:13Speaker 02

  There was a lot of Anthony Fauci talk in our house for good reason, of course.

• 56:18Tucker Carlson?

  Pro or con?

• 56:26Speaker 02

  And there was a, you know, he worked really hard on it and he, he spent a lot of time citing sources in that book.

• 56:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I noticed.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  So, you know, there were a lot of days that were just filled with citing sources by, you know, this article, that study, this goes in page two, this goes in. So it was, it took up a lot of space in our lives.

• 56:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I mean, there are thousands of footnotes in that book and it's a very long book.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was, you know, was it important? Yes. Was it joyful? No.

• 57:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Wasn't like-

• 57:11Tucker Carlson?

  No spouse or writer was ever happy about books.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:14Tucker Carlson?

  I've had children cry to me when, I'm gonna write a book, another book. Everyone cries.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Please don't.

• 57:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it's very unhappy. No, I know.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  It is hard to write a book, isn't it?

• 57:24Tucker Carlson?

  It's awful, but it's terrible for the people around you.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, no, I'm very aware of that. I've, I've received that feedback.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  I hear you.

• 57:34Tucker Carlson?

  Sitting alone in your office-

• 57:35Speaker 02

  I'll try to do better.

• 57:36Tucker Carlson?

  Chain smoking, feeling angry. Um, no, no, I, yeah, no, I know that well. So were you ever worried that, I mean, this is getting more and more and more controversial. You, you marry this man and you're in separate worlds, as you said, and that's a wonderful thing. He's a star in his world, you're a star in your world. They don't really collide. They don't even intersect.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  No, they don't.

• 57:59Tucker Carlson?

  And people in your world think Bobby Kennedy's pretty cool because he's like a Kennedy and they're like, sort of, you know, Democratic Party royalty and liberal in a wholesome way and like, not, not a scary liberal, but like a do-gooder liberal.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:12Tucker Carlson?

  Like, everyone kind of likes that.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Clean water.

• 58:15Tucker Carlson?

  And you're on the coolest show in America. And of course, everyone loves that. And all of a sudden, everyone in LA is pissed about COVID and there's your husband in his office writing this book, accusing Fauci of like, starting the pandemic.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:31Tucker Carlson?

  Were you worried that that was going to affect you, your life?

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, was I worried?

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Yes, but it was more than worry. It was affecting my life. So it wasn't even like, but I was concerned. I was concerned, I didn't know if this was going to be

• 59:01Speaker 02

  something that we move through, that I move through, that, whoa, that was a crazy time.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  And now things are back to normal.

• 59:12Tucker Carlson?

  Did that happen?

• 59:15Speaker 02

  It did not.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  There is no normal. We broke normal a long.

• 59:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, this was beginning of a, of a journey. Yeah. As I said at the outset, you're in a place I doubt you anticipated being.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did not expect that. So that was, that was when I realized, oh, this is,

• 59:36Speaker 02

  yeah, this is changing everything.

• 59:40Tucker Carlson?

  So I would, it was publicly reported that people in Los Angeles were like, maybe we shouldn't give Cheryl Heinz work because of her husband. Do you think that's real?

• 59:52Speaker 02

  I do think that's real.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  I think.

• 59:55Tucker Carlson?

  I find that shocking. I do, sorry.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, some people are just so,

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  they are so

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  taken with politics. They're so upset by politics that even to see me is upsetting to them.

• 1:00:21Tucker Carlson?

  Can I suggest something, though, that this is why it matters? It's not just about getting parts in TV shows or writing books about Fauci. It's a genocidal mindset.

• 1:00:32Tucker Carlson?

  It's the mindset that says, well, you know, we hurt the guilty, but we also hurt his family. And that's a genocidal mindset. And it's weirdly common in elite circles in the United States. You know, it's like, what do you have to do with this? Nothing, you married the guy. And by the way, you're already successful when you married him. You already had your own thing.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:52Tucker Carlson?

  And you're already famous and you marry him. You're not writing a book on Dr. Fauci, but let's hurt her because she's related to him. That's, that's where genocide comes from, that way of thinking.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  It is, it is. It is strange. It's very strange to me. And at the same time, on the opposite side,

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  yes, there are people that I'm probably not going to work with again. And there are people that I will be working with that have reached out to me.

• 1:01:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  And that are in this business that are very successful people that say, oh, I want to work with you.

• 1:01:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's a great way. That's a great way to look at it.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's, but it was hard because at the time, I mean, I've really loved all the people I've worked with.

• 1:01:40Tucker Carlson?

  I, it sounds like you did.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  And I really have appreciated them. And, and I also know, you know, we're sort of generalizing. I, there are plenty of people that I have worked with that have reached out to me. And, you know, will say, I can't wait to work with you again.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  They're not doing it publicly, but the other people aren't doing it publicly either. Nobody's, you know, besides Bradley Whitford. Nobody is going on, you know.

• 1:02:10Tucker Carlson?

  What did Bradley Whitford say?

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh. You didn't hear that dumb tweet?

• 1:02:17Tucker Carlson?

  I try and stay away from all things Bradley Whitford related. But don't tell me, I can't wait for the new outrage. What is it?

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. I don't know. I, it's when Bobby, I guess it's when Bobby backed President Trump. And I just woke up, I woke up and I had people texting me. And I was trying to stay off social media too, because it's, nothing good comes from it.

• 1:02:43Tucker Carlson?

  You think?

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  And I'm looking at my phone and I'm seeing texts from my friends saying, oh, you know, what an asshole. I'm not thinking, who, oh, who's the asshole today? It's always somebody.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  And then somebody sent me his, something that he posted on X and it was something like,

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  I bet my nephew, Jackson would do it by heart, but it was something like, hey, Cheryl Hines.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  Something like insulted Donald Trump and then of course insulted Bobby and said, "Oh, this is a real good, setting a great example for the kids," talking about me, "and a real profile and courage."

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  I was like, "What? What? First of all, what kids? What?

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  What kids am I setting an example for? And if the example that I'm setting is that I'm supporting my husband, I'm glad that's the example for the kids.

• 1:04:01Tucker Carlson?

  Best example you could set.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  So that was strange. And then "Profile and Courage," just because that's the name of the book that John F. Kennedy wrote, but you know, no explanation other than, he just sort of called me out for not-

• 1:04:18Tucker Carlson?

  Like it's your fault.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  -being outraged at my husband. I'm not even sure what he was hoping that I would publicly-

• 1:04:27Tucker Carlson?

  Denounce your husband?

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess.

• 1:04:29Tucker Carlson?

  That's it, I'm getting a divorce.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  You're right, Bradley. You know, it was so strange to me. I was, I was just like, "Whoa, what?"

• 1:04:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Like, and you know, I know Bradley and I, he's an acquaintance and if I saw him at a party, we'd hang out and laugh and talk, but so for him to just suddenly come after me in a tweet was just weird.

• 1:04:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but kind of consistent with the culture of the city that you live in, right?

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  Well-

• 1:05:01Tucker Carlson?

  There's not a lot of dis- I mean, it's so monochromatic. It's like everybody has the same views on everything.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  You know what's interesting? After the first, after the election with, with Trump and Hillary, I remember going to work and I remember- I was in, I was in the green room up somewhere and people were talking about the election and everybody was saying, I can't believe Trump won, couldn't believe, who is, who voted for this person? And there was one actor that said, oh, I voted for him. And everybody looked at him like, what?

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  And I, you know, I love this actor. I'm not going to say his name because.

• 1:05:45Tucker Carlson?

  Is he still working?

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Yes, and he's still working. And I said, oh, that's so interesting. And I said, why, why did you? And I wanted to hear, I wanted to talk to him because I felt like, oh, tell me why? Because what am I missing? You know?

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  And everybody else was just acted like he was a leper in the moment, just like, what? And I remember thinking at the time, like, this is so strange.

• 1:06:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, because that's not an environment conducive to creativity.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:06:20Tucker Carlson?

  Creative people are open minded.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Tucker Carlson?

  And willing to entertain all kinds of wild notions, some of which are wrong.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and curious.

• 1:06:28Tucker Carlson?

  Curious.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  About other people, especially.

• 1:06:30Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. Nicely put. They're curious about other people. Exactly.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  So it's, it's odd to me.

• 1:06:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, yeah. And, you know, maybe it has something to do with the declining creative output in Los Angeles. I'm just guessing.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  I can't speak to that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:06:49Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Listen, the, the people in this country and the entertainment business are the best in the world. They're, they're the best in the world.

• 1:06:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:07:00Tucker Carlson?

  But a lot of it's being made outside of LA.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, yeah, that's the unfortunate part. A lot of the industry has been driven out.

• 1:07:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I mean, I always defend Los Angeles. I lived there as a child. I think it's the most American of all cities. I love it. I was just there. I'm probably the only person with my voting record to defend LA, but I always do. But I just noticed that it's, when I was a child, it's, it did seem open minded.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe too much, probably famously too open minded. Like, some things are not a good idea.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  Do whatever, be the person you want to be.

• 1:07:35Tucker Carlson?

  Clearly, no, clearly, that's not the road to happiness. On the other hand, it is the road to creativity.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Right. Well, that, that's why I find it odd.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  LA, I find it odd that, uh, on the one hand, you have a lot of people saying, um, yeah, let people be people and love the person, no matter who they are. I mean, that's, that was the feeling I always felt in LA.

• 1:08:04Tucker Carlson?

  Unless you're married to someone who writes a book I don't like, in which case, cut them off, start to death.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  I was like, oh, I didn't see the fine print. Okay. I know, no, I know, no. Weird.

• 1:08:16Tucker Carlson?

  Weird. Yeah. It sounds like you're, just by the way you talk that you were not super political.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  No, I wasn't political at all. I was, uh, you know, the only thing I had ever posted was to vote. I didn't say who I think you should vote for. I was just like,

• 1:08:36Tucker Carlson?

  But personally, you weren't like yelling about politics at dinner most nights?

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I can, I can feel it.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  And by the way, I, I never knew what politics my friends or coworkers had.

• 1:08:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Uh, cause I would never be the person to bring up politics unless they were talking about it. I would chime in, but, um, it just was not, I was, was not that person that was interested. I was, I was interested in entertainment and writing and producing and directing and acting. And to me, and so inspired by the people around me in LA, so inspired by them. So yeah, politics was just for what other people do.

• 1:09:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:09:22Tucker Carlson?

  I think most people felt that way. So when your husband said, oh, by the way, uh, just so you know, I may run for president. What did you think of that?

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  I was shocked.

• 1:09:35Tucker Carlson?

  This is not something you thought of before?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  No. No. Yeah. I said, president of what? Cause I was hoping it was like a board or a company.

• 1:09:47Tucker Carlson?

  Homeowners Association.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  The homeowners association. I can support that. Uh, I was shocked and I.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  I, you know, I was like, well, I need a minute to think about this. I mean, do I have to give you an answer right now? Is this something that I have to answer now? And he said, no, I just, I need to know how you feel about it because I can't do it. I won't do it unless you're, it's okay with you and you're supportive of it. And I said, I have to really think about it. You know, because I knew,

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  I knew that it would be life changing.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  And it's hard when.

• 1:10:35Tucker Carlson?

  Did you know how much?

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  No, no. But I knew it would be big, you know, I knew it would be. And I think what's really hard is I've always been very independent in my life, right? Moved to LA, I lived on my own, I sort of, you know, made my own path to do this and that, you know, other things. And however I got there was not the normal way. I was doing it my own way. So I was used to taking risks for myself and knowing, well, this might not work out. This might work out, might not, but that's okay. I'm taking the risk.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  But it's sort of a harder, of course, situation. And this is with everybody, right? Anybody who's in a relationship, anybody who has kids, anybody who loves somebody else. When they want to take a risk.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  And they're doing it because they, they're, they want to accomplish something or do something.

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  It's harder when they're the ones making the decision, but you know that it's going to really change your life too.

• 1:11:56Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Harder.

• 1:11:59Tucker Carlson?

  So what did, was the show still going? I can't remember.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, the show is still going.

• 1:12:05Tucker Carlson?

  What did they say? When you show up at work and you're like, hey, guys.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  Didn't love it.

• 1:12:15Tucker Carlson?

  I bet.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  You know, they were always very loving to me and even to Bobby, you know, as a person. So I never felt hate coming at me or towards Bobby. But definitely, there was strong opinions about should he be running for president against Joe Biden. That's how it all started, right?

• 1:12:55Tucker Carlson?

  He's the fourth candidate to run for president and the only one not to get the support of Hollywood.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Interesting. Yeah. It was, it was an interesting time. And I, I did have maybe one discussion with someone on the set where that person said, well, Bobby has to drop out. He cannot be running against Joe Biden.

• 1:13:24Tucker Carlson?

  On the set? Somebody said this to you?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it was.

• 1:13:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but at work?

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, at work. And I said, well, um,

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  I said, you know, I don't know that Biden is a strong candidate.

• 1:13:40Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you are Ms. Understatement, aren't you? I know that Joe Biden is a strong candidate.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, because, because that's what they asked me.

• 1:13:49Tucker Carlson?

  He's like asleep in his peas at this point. He's like a strong candidate.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  They said, why, why is Bobby running? And I said, because perhaps Joe Biden is not a strong candidate. And that was probably as heated, heated as it got. But it was clear that a lot of people in town did not want Bobby running against Joe Biden. A lot of people in the country, a lot of Democrats. Democrats were not supportive of Bobby.

• 1:14:20Tucker Carlson?

  Well, some were, but.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, some were, some were. Yeah, definitely.

• 1:14:24Tucker Carlson?

  On the margins, but the party itself was adamantly opposed.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:31Tucker Carlson?

  Wow. So how long did you do the show during the campaign?

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  Oh, we just had our last season. So it was, so I was probably.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  Bobby was probably running for maybe two months, like maybe a two month overlap or something.

• 1:14:53Tucker Carlson?

  What did you think of that experience?

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  I don't want to get emotional. Um, I thought it was.

• 1:15:07Tucker Carlson?

  It's all right. That stuff is pretty heavy. Yeah.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  I mean,

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  it was hard because it maybe sad.

• 1:15:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  Because I, you know, I had been working on this show for a long time and

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  and it was always pure joy.

• 1:15:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  And

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  I mean, even when the vaccines of it all were introduced, it, there started to be an element that's

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  made its way into conversations at work that up until that moment had, like I said, only been pure joy. So, and, and, you know, not to say that people through the years didn't have health issues, didn't have relatives who passed away. And so, you know, we were there for each other.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:16:32Tucker Carlson?

  But it started to divide your friendships.

• 1:16:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  And it's

• 1:16:43Tucker Carlson?

  Is that because you showed up and said, you have to vote for Bobby for president, or else I'm not going to be your friend? Or was it because people were cruel to you because of your husband?

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  Well, I, you know, I don't know if I'd use the word cruel, but um,

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  yeah, I never told anybody they needed to vote for Bobby.

• 1:17:05Tucker Carlson?

  Somehow I didn't think you did.

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  Um, I, uh, so, yeah, so

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  that part of it made me sad that that was how the show was ending for me, you know? And it was just personal for me. It was for everybody else. It was,

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  it was fine and it was normal. It was usual. They were, they were ending the,

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  the series and, you know, going on late night talk shows and talking about the show. And they could talk about the show, they could talk about Curb without,

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  without talking about politics, without anybody asking them questions about

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  their spouses.

• 1:17:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  But that was not the world for me.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  And so that was

• 1:18:04Tucker Carlson?

  You couldn't go anywhere without having to answer questions about your husband?

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  It's still, it's still, it's still a conversation.

• 1:18:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I'm for conversation. I'm not for punishing the innocent because that again is the genocidal mindset that I object to completely. And I just, I just can't imagine, I'm shocked to learn how many people have that mindset and think it's okay to torment people because of their relatives. Thank God, I'm not held accountable for my relatives. I haven't been for most of my life. You know what I mean?

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  Right, I know.

• 1:18:37Tucker Carlson?

  I think feel that way. And but the idea that you would attack someone for a relative. Is, uh, man, that's so dark, I think.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  I think it's really strange. It's strange.

• 1:18:50Tucker Carlson?

  You're a nice person. I can tell you're restraining yourself. You just see so much of this and that's the same attitude, you know, like, well, let's kill the tootsies because they're tootsies and their parents are bad. So let's kill the kids. Like, that's just not the way to think. That's not the Christian way to think. It's not the humane way to think. And it was never the American way to think. And it is all of a sudden. And I, and you're a victim of it.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's, it's an odd place to be. It's a strange, it's very odd place. You know what? Something that stood out to me, like during all this time, when, when tables were sort of turning, um, after, after the 2020 election and Biden became president, I had a friend, a good friend of mine, who's, who's no longer speaking to me, but, uh,

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  she said, I wonder what Melania is gonna do now. This is after the election. I said, oh, I don't know. She could probably do anything she wants. She goes, I hope she can't. I hope she can't do anything. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she said, well, if she is married to Donald Trump, I hope she can't do anything. And I just, it was eye opening to me. I thought, whoa, uh, that's odd.

• 1:20:30Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's hate. That's actual hate.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  I said, I said, so.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  And she said, haven't you, haven't you thought that? And I said, I have not.

• 1:20:43Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  I said, I have not spent one moment

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  hoping something horrible for somebody else. It was so, but just, but just to know like, that's what's living on in her mind. Like she has spent, even if it's two minutes of her day, but it clearly it's not like it was more than that. Must spend time like wishing, and by way, everything that I know about Melania Trump is pretty amazing. She only, she does a lot of work for children.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  And she does it quietly and she doesn't need fanfare for it, but she really works hard.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  To try to reunite children with their parents for the, a lot of different programs that she works. But so for one of my friends to be wishing something on somebody that she doesn't even know this person, I don't know, it was eye opening to me.

• 1:21:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, again, it's back to the same mindset. So she didn't say, I hate Melania because of these three things she did. It was her connection to someone she doesn't like.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:22:02Tucker Carlson?

  That made her guilty.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  You know what?

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  I don't know why that brings such clarity to me because like I said, now this friend does not talk to me.

• 1:22:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Cause you're married to the wrong person.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh. I never, why did I never connect that?

• 1:22:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, this is like the root of like a lot of the world's problems. It's like, let's kill their families too. It's what's happening in a lot of places in the world right now. And, and it's happening in Los Angeles.

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  It's pretty crazy. Yeah. And I thought it was crazy at the time. It's like, whoa, you hate her only because she's married to.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  Somebody else you hate.

• 1:22:46Tucker Carlson?

  And she won't speak to you.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:49Tucker Carlson?

  This is a coworker or friend from your business?

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  I had been friends with her since, uh, for 30 years.

• 1:22:56Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, gosh. Oh, I'm sorry.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Well, thank you. And, you know, I've come to, did you have to ask yourself, well, if that's who this person is, is that who I?

• 1:23:12Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's right.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, no, I think that's right. So one more sore subject, but the security thing, I, that was very upsetting to me. I mean, I know your husband and I really love your husband. So that was part of it. But even if I didn't like your husband, I would, um, and I very much do, but I would, even if I didn't, I would think, hmm, presidential candidates ought to have Secret Service protection if there, if it's real candidacy, traveling around the country with staff, which he was, packing venues, which he was, very famous person. And then of course, the whole, his family backstory is like so unbelievable. Right. So we don't need to be reminded of what could happen. It's obvious. And yet he did not have Secret Service protection from the Biden administration.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  He did not.

• 1:23:58Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. They wanted him out of the race, one way or the other. I think that's the obvious conclusion there. That's so dark and sick. But here's my question. I didn't see many prominent people stand up, including people he's related to and say, whoa, wait a second. This man needs Secret Service protection. His father was murdered. Are you joking? Like, what was that? Why was there no outcry over that? I was with him in some city, New York, I think. Oh, it was at MSG. It was last, I don't know when it was, whatever I traveled to, but it was somewhere and I was walking down the street with him. No, it was in DC. And he had no Secret Service protection at all.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Tucker Carlson?

  And I was like, what is going on?

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Tucker Carlson?

  Why didn't people say, why didn't prominent people?

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  Isn't it crazy? It is crazy to me.

• 1:24:51Tucker Carlson?

  Do you notice this?

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, I do. I talk about this in my book too, Unscripted. Because that was, that was also part of, um,

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  What, you know, there were so many things that were very surreal about it, about Bobby running, but that was one of them where, you know,

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  that was a big concern, the biggest concern about him running is, was security. Because I, you know, I'm like, this is your putting yourself out there. And yes, your father was assassinated while he was running for president. Your uncle was assassinated when he was president. That is, this is so dangerous. And, and then I thought, at the beginning,

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  I, I thought, okay, he's announcing he's running for president. We'll, we'll see what happens in the primaries because in the primaries, we'll know if he has support or not, and it'll go one way or the other. So I thought, maybe this is going to go on, maybe he'll be running for, I don't know, five or six months or something.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  And we had a private security.

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  And he, you know, applied for, for a secret service. And first, first of all, they didn't even respond to him in a,

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  in a

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  normal timeline. So it was just like, well, we'll wait, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. And then when Bobby switched to running as an independent.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  The Democrats came out basically and said on TV, I watched an interview where they said, "No, we are going to make sure that RFK Junior spends all of his money on lawsuits. We're going to keep suing him so he has no money for his campaign." And then, you know, the, what we could hear people talk about, not in front of the camera, was also, "We're going to make sure he has to spend a lot of money on security, so he doesn't have money for his campaign."

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  And also heard, if he was given Secret Service, then it would legitimize him as a candidate, and they didn't want that. So, all of that was happening, and then, yes, you had some family members who came out publicly against Bobby and said, "But we, but we love him." But I never saw any of them publicly say, "Even though we don't agree with him politically, we are concerned about his safety."

• 1:28:16Tucker Carlson?

  You didn't hear any say that?

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  I did not, of his siblings, no, I did not.

• 1:28:20Tucker Carlson?

  Sick, it's the sickest thing. Sorry, you don't have to say that. It's your, they're your in-laws, but I mean, I can't imagine anything more loathsome than that.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  It was hard to believe, really hard to believe. And then, you know, I, I went down a rabbit hole when I was writing this book, because at the time, people, different outlets would give different reasons why, of course, Robert Kennedy didn't get Secret Service, it's too early. But then you would look, I would look up and Barack Obama got it 300 and something days before the election. You know, people, people got it...

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  200 days before the election. So that was not it. There are some people got it before they even announced that they were running. So whatever they were, whatever people were saying, they always were trying to make Bobby look like he's being ridiculous. You're being ridiculous for asking. You're not even a real candidate. And meanwhile, you know, he had someone show up at one of his rallies with loaded weapons, you know, pretending to be

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  a federal agent flashing badges and, and they arrested him. But there was home watching when a guy came over my back fence and was approaching the house. I was on, I was doing a Instagram Live with my friend from Tallahassee. And I said, I, I see this guy out the window and I, and she said, are you okay? I said, I don't, I think I have to go. Something's happening. And then I see our security guard, you know, take his weapon out. And I'm watching this on Instagram Live. And I said, I really do have to wrap it up. So yeah, that guy was apprehended,

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  was arrested by LAPD, was released, and then took an Uber back to our house and was arrested again the same day. And both of those, both, both of those events were publicized. People knew about it. You know, I was in LA when, when it happened, when the one guy was arrested at the rally. It made the local news. I don't know if it made the national news. But people knew, people in the administration knew, people in Bobby's family knew. And, and it's not

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  everybody. I know that there were a few members of the family that I know that inquired.

• 1:31:17Tucker Carlson?

  Issuing a public statement and calling Joe Biden to provide their brother with Secret Service would have fixed that in about two seconds.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  Well, that's what President Trump did.

• 1:31:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Oh, I know. It's just crazy that it took Trump to provide protection to Bobby Kennedy.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  I know. A year and a half later, you know, Bobby had been running for a year and a half by that point.

• 1:31:40Tucker Carlson?

  So, okay, the night Trump is shot in Butler, Bobby and Trump speak for the first time and start kind of feeling each other out about maybe we could team up, maybe Bobby could endorse Trump, which should be, at the time, seemed completely crazy, but was clearly possible. From your perspective, like, first your husband comes out against vaccines, then he attacks Fauci, then he runs for president, and now he's thinking about endorsing Donald Trump. I mean, these are, like, how many red lines are there in Hollywood?

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  Yes. I think, yeah, that was the la, that was definitely the last strike.

• 1:32:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that was it, huh?

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. That was beyond anything anybody could take. Some people, some people. But yeah, it was, that was, that, it's all been a learning process for me, you know, and to, to, it's been, it's, it's, sometimes it has tested me to take a step back and get a different perspective, you know, because the, like you said, that was something I couldn't, could not have ever imagined.

• 1:33:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Well, it was a big deal. I mean, the Trump people who very much wanted, I know, you know, Bobby's endorsement, wanted him to campaign with them, wanted to bring him on the administration, knew that your opinion was really important to him, obviously you're his wife, but he really cared about what you thought, and they were like, they were focused on that. So when was your, when was the first time you met Donald Trump?

• 1:33:40Speaker 02

  I met him, he, he was, the assassination attempt was on a Saturday and I met him on that Monday morning. I don't remember the dates by any means, but

• 1:33:51Tucker Carlson?

  That was July, mid-July.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that was right before the Republican convention was starting.

• 1:33:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it started Monday night.

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  Right, so, so President Trump wanted to meet with Bobby that morning in Milwaukee.

• 1:34:07Tucker Carlson?

  They had talked for the first time on Saturday and then by Monday you were out there.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:34:12Tucker Carlson?

  They work fast.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  Well, we see that in this administration, they work fast. Yeah, so, yeah, everything was happening quickly. But you know, there was a, there was a shift, there was a huge shift when there, there was the assassination attempts on Donald Trump. It was a shit, you know, so many people were, a lot of Americans felt like that this is too much.

• 1:34:49Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:50Speaker 02

  And now we really have to get behind Trump. This is too much. Um, so there was that shift going on and at the same time, it was, um, had to be emotional for President Trump and his family. I mean, the bullet came very close to killing him, inches. That's dramatic.

• 1:35:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  So, there was a lot, there, there was a lot going on and a lot of, um, even emotions, emotions happening. So when they started talking on, on Saturday.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  They said they wanted to meet on Monday. I was gonna meet Bobby after this meeting. He was gonna sit down with the president. They were gonna talk and see what was,

• 1:36:00Speaker 02

  what if anything, they, if they wanted to work together, if they didn't, if they agreed on things, if they didn't. And I was gonna meet with Bobby after the, that, that, um, meeting. But when I landed in Milwaukee, the, the security said, oh, we're taking you straight to the meeting. I said, to, I'm going to the meeting. So it was interesting. That was the first time I, I walked in and it was, it was Bobby and, um, Amarillis, who was my, uh, daughter-in-law, yeah, who's running, who was running Bobby's campaign at the time. Um, Suzie Wiles, who was

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  running, um, Donald Trump's campaign and, and Donald Trump. And that was the first time I met him. And he shook my hand and, you know, he, he was a very genuine person. And it was,

• 1:37:02Speaker 02

  I don't know. I, I don't, I don't want to say surprising, maybe surprising.

• 1:37:10Tucker Carlson?

  Out-of-body experience. I mean, here you, you work on Curb Your Enthusiasm. You live in LA for 30 years. Donald Trump's the enemy. And all of a sudden, you're like in a meeting with him?

• 1:37:19Speaker 02

  I know. By the way, there's an episode of Curb where Larry wears a MAGA hat to repel people in LA so he doesn't have to have lunch with people. Which is funny, but it's also true. Uh, which is also funny. But, um, but yeah, so, uh, so I was, I don't know. I was expecting something else.

• 1:37:44Tucker Carlson?

  What were you expecting? Horns, sulfur?

• 1:37:51Speaker 02

  Um, I was expecting, uh, I think I was expecting somebody who didn't listen to other people, wouldn't be interested in other people. Uh,

• 1:38:08Speaker 02

  And that's not, that's not who I met.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  I met somebody who was very interested in, in other people. Really wanted to hear what somebody else had to say. I think that was very surprising to me.

• 1:38:25Tucker Carlson?

  Did you call back to LA and say, hey, guys, he's actually cool?

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  Good news, guys.

• 1:38:32Speaker 02

  Uh, I didn't even tell anybody at the time. And, and, and it was so, it was so stressful. There was stress for so many reasons at that time. Security, number one reason, right? I mean, this just happened with Donald Trump.

• 1:38:49Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  With Secret Service protection.

• 1:38:51Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  And Bobby still didn't have Secret Service protection. And during that meeting,

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  President Trump posted Bobby Kennedy should have Secret Service protection. This is ridiculous. And that day Bobby got Secret Service protection. I mean, were the wheels already in motion? Perhaps, but the, but the other thing about, so he ended up getting Secret Service protection. It was a presidential, an executive order, which was fine, but usually in, when a presidential candidate gets Secret Service protection, when they're running, their spouse, their family also has protection.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  But because this was an executive order, it was just for Bobby, which was also strange because suddenly I'm in the house, I'm in my house. Now we have Secret Ser-, Bobby has Secret Service. So I will be in the house with the kids for two days. And then Bobby's coming into town and then we have to evacuate the house so they can do a bomb sweep before Bobby gets there.

• 1:40:12Tucker Carlson?

  In your house?

• 1:40:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm thinking, oh, the house that we've just been in for three days? Nobody cared about the bomb then? This is weird. But yeah, that's how it was. So, so it was straight, I thought that was strange too. So. It was just a very, it was a very stressful time. So after, so during that meeting, right? So I mean, stressful already that there was an assassination attempt on, on Donald Trump. That's so stressful. That's so awful. And what does that say about us? Um, and then now he's meeting with Bobby because they're

• 1:40:53Speaker 02

  talking about perhaps working together. Oh, so stressful. And then, um, and then that day we get Secret Service protection. So that's another, you know, crazy thing that's happening. Because now you're talking about, um, police, you know, sheriffs everywhere around your house and, um, motorcades everywhere Bobby goes, everywhere Bobby goes, just like motorcade. I'm sure the neighbors didn't love it. Um, and the dogs, you know, now we had bomb sniffing dogs and we already

• 1:41:35Speaker 02

  had our crazy dogs. It was just, all of it was a lot happening at once. Yeah, that's when I, I was just telling you, I broke into hives. And then later that day, while I was in Milwaukee, um, my lips started swelling. I mean, a crazy amount. It is a crazy amount. So much so that I had to go to the emergency room because I was worried that my throat might close up. It was all from stress.

• 1:42:13Tucker Carlson?

  That's wild.

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 1:42:18Tucker Carlson?

  So, when was the first time you told people back home that Trump was actually kind of normal in person?

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  Well,

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  I really didn't tell my friends. Um. I told by, I mean, I'm very close to my, my sister and my brother. So they're really the, the, you know, my sounding board. I, one of my best friends back in LA. I mean, I have a few best friends back in LA. But I wouldn't even tell them that because I didn't want them to be stressed about it. I didn't want, I didn't want people to know because I don't, I don't need that other people asking them about it. Because I know that there are, people are already mad because I'm married to Bobby.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  I don't need people being mad at my friends. Because I married to Bobby and they're friends with me. Well, so I wasn't even telling people. I don't want to put them in a position of, oh, my God, I can't believe your friend did this. Does that make sense?

• 1:43:35Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:43:38Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, it makes sense if you live in a completely insane world. Where talking to Donald Trump is a death penalty offense. I mean, it's so fucking nuts that it's hard to know how even to.

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  No, it's crazy. Yeah. Um, but you know, my family, my, my sister and my brother, they were like, yeah, that, that makes sense. It's really interesting. You know, they were very curious to hear, hear about it and how, what I thought about it and what I, how I found Donald Trump to be. They were like, that, wow, that's so interesting. But I guess that makes sense because you do hear that about him. You hear that he's, people say he's charming. And I understand why. Because somebody who is, somebody that you meet that feels completely comfortable with

• 1:44:31Speaker 02

  who they are, completely comfortable in their own skin. They come across as charming.

• 1:44:39Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  Because it's like, oh.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  I'm not, I don't need to put on any airs. I don't need to be anybody other than I am.

• 1:44:46Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  And that's who I found him to be. I found him to be just a genuine person.

• 1:44:55Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever meet Melania?

• 1:44:56Speaker 02

  Yes, I've met her a few times.

• 1:44:58Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think?

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  I really like her.

• 1:45:00Tucker Carlson?

  Did you call your friend in LA and say, actually, she's pretty cool?

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  I did.

• 1:45:05Tucker Carlson?

  Did you actually?

• 1:45:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean Melania, I haven't had, I've definitely had more time

• 1:45:15Speaker 02

  with, with President Trump than Melania, just a few moments with Melania, but she was so sweet to me when I, one of the first

• 1:45:28Speaker 02

  things that we went to after the administration started was the governor's dinner at the White House. It was a very beautiful dinner with all the governors.

• 1:45:40Speaker 02

  And I just had one tiny moment with Melania and she asked me how I was finding DC and how I was doing with everything. And she said, you should really try to enjoy it.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  And I, and I took that in because I thought, yeah, you're right. Because up until that moment, I was thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna like this. I don't know if I am ready for this. I don't know.

• 1:46:13Speaker 02

  And then when she said that, I thought, yeah, why don't I try to enjoy it?

• 1:46:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, why not?

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  And then it really, I don't know, it really like, those were the words I needed to hear at that moment.

• 1:46:26Tucker Carlson?

  Have you enjoyed it?

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  Not all of it, but, but I've enjoyed, um, I enjoy the people that I spend time with in DC. I really like the people that Bobby works with.

• 1:46:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  I like their spouses. I like them as people, you know, as someone to hang out with and talk to at the dinner party. I, I really like them.

• 1:46:57Tucker Carlson?

  You had an appearance on The View the other day, which I saw part of it. And they immediately started attacking you for your husband because they're feminists. You know, that makes sense. And, um, but they, they were, the criticism of him and then to direct it at you. I guess I've said it eight times, but I really mean it is insane. But it's all about the vaccines. Like, what is that? Why is it that someone, because he has said many times, including to me, against vaccines on principle, but some of these vaccines are clearly dangerous and they are, and that's proven. And why wouldn't we try to make them safer? Like, why would that be a controversial statement? I'm honestly confused.

• 1:47:42Speaker 02

  So am I. I am honestly confused by that. And I'm confused by people attacking the parents who say, "My child is different since they received the vaccine." It's a very strange for other people to say, "You are crazy. How dare you say that? How dare you blame the vaccine?" And it, these are parents who said, "Oh, I'm just telling you my experience. My experience was my child was hitting developmental markers.

• 1:48:21Speaker 02

  My child was, was hitting milestones and then they got the vaccine and everything changed." Why are we yelling at those parents? Why are, I, I, that's, that's what I really don't understand either. Why are, when did that start?

• 1:48:42Tucker Carlson?

  You know, I don't know anyone like that just because I shield myself from anyone who would even, even gives a hint of having those attitudes because I can't deal with it. So I don't, I don't, I don't know the answer, but yours, I mean, you know, a lot of these people personally, like, what do you think the answer is?

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  There's something about vaccines that they've made, people have made very political in a way that's hard to understand because it's, if you're talking about cancer, you're talking about, you know, different, different ways to treat cancer, people don't get upset about it.

• 1:49:24Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:49:25Speaker 02

  People don't yell at you about it.

• 1:49:27Tucker Carlson?

  You're not taking chemo, just radiation? Damn you!

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  Right. So there's something about the mindset of people. The mindset of some people is you are putting everybody in danger if you don't get vaccinated.

• 1:49:47Speaker 02

  And once again, it goes back to what you said, well, if you have the vaccine, you should feel pretty good that you're not going to get it, because that's why you got the vaccine.

• 1:49:54Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:49:55Speaker 02

  But, um...

• 1:49:56Tucker Carlson?

  It's like yelling at me for not wearing a seatbelt.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:49:59Tucker Carlson?

  What does that have to do with you?

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  Right. And somehow it's, I don't, I really don't understand it. I don't understand. I don't understand how, when people got mad at other people, also women turning on each other, I find motherhood is, is challenging enough, parenthood.

• 1:50:25Speaker 02

  If another mother is telling me, wow, this is what happened, this was my experience with me and my child, why would I be judging that person? Because I did, because I think she's lying to me? Why would she be lying? Who's lying about this? Why does, why, what, why would somebody lie about it? It doesn't make sense to me.

• 1:50:48Tucker Carlson?

  No, it doesn't.

• 1:50:49Speaker 02

  They're not, nobody's gaining anything by sharing their story. So it's, I don't know why they're so mad about vaccines. There's some, people are worried that if you...

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  If you question the safety, or if you, like I said on The View, I said, you know, can we do better? Can we make them safer so there aren't as many injuries? There are a lot of injuries.

• 1:51:17Tucker Carlson?

  A lot.

• 1:51:18Speaker 02

  Boy, there's the vaccine injury compensation program that's paid out $5.4 billion. That's what I told him on The View and no response. Like, nobody said anything like, oh, wow. I mean, no, Whoopi asked me if it was just COVID. I said, no, I think it was for all vaccines. But can we just look at that without thinking about it in a political way and say, oh, well, people are, people are being paid compensated for vaccine injuries. There's a whole service set up for it. Can we just say, can we, can both sides agree? Oh, I, you're right. Somebody has been injured by it.

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  They proved it in court. So can we start there? It's like you're saying, can we just start at one place where we all agree on something? And then say, well, can we do a vaccine where less people are injured?

• 1:52:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:20Speaker 02

  Why is that?

• 1:52:21Tucker Carlson?

  Same vaccine, fewer deaths.

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is that crazy?

• 1:52:26Tucker Carlson?

  Doesn't seem it.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  Why is that? Why does that make people mad? I don't know. I really don't know.

• 1:52:32Tucker Carlson?

  You really don't.

• 1:52:36Speaker 02

  I really don't.

• 1:52:37Tucker Carlson?

  It does seem, I mean, I'm trying to, I've thought about this for years, ever since your husband kind of blew up this topic. I've been thinking about it many years ago. We wrote that Rolling Stone piece 15, 20 years ago. And I knew him and I, and I admired him as a writer. He's a great writer. And in addition to other things, and I watched him just like literally end his career and all these friendships and Bobby Kennedy was like, he's a Kennedy. That's so cool. It went from that to Bobby Kennedy's name may not be spoken because he criticized vaccines. And I've been trying to figure out what that's about ever since.

• 1:53:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, what do you think it's about?

• 1:53:13Tucker Carlson?

  I think there's a spiritual element to it. I think there's a, this is a religion. This is not rational. That's the first thing I noticed. Second, this is longstanding. Diego Rivera, the communist Mexican muralist, wrote or drew, painted a fairly famous mural of a child getting vaccines. And it looks like the kind of classic Christian Christmas image of Jesus in the manger. But instead of a cross, it's vaccines. And that was painted in the 30s. It was like a WPA program or something. You can look it up on the internet. It's really interesting for what it reveals of, of the mindset around vaccines. But it's like a ritual. This is not, because again, it's not a question about like,

• 1:53:58Tucker Carlson?

  what's the most effective oncology, right?

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:54:01Tucker Carlson?

  It's way deeper and like pre rational. So that's religion. That's not science. That's religion.

• 1:54:08Speaker 02

  Well, it's interesting when you're talking about it that way. It is interesting because it's probably the only thing

• 1:54:17Speaker 02

  that people are asked to do as a group, regardless of who you are, regardless of what your religion, what your health is.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  You're asked to take the vaccine and don't ask questions.

• 1:54:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  So I guess maybe

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  that's where it started, right? They had, they had to convince people that, no, this is for everybody. And you can't ask questions. Everybody's doing it. Just everybody's doing it. That's all you need to know.

• 1:55:03Tucker Carlson?

  Well, yeah, but I mean, for sure, people used to burn widows, you know, or, or whatever, you know, people had all kinds of ugly, primitive rituals that they were ultimately talked out of that were once compulsory, which are now reviled. Like, I get it. But this one has been the same for 90 years. Like, there's something piercing the skin, injecting something into somebody. I mean, there's a control element, but there's also a ritualistic component to this.

• 1:55:34Speaker 02

  That's so crazy.

• 1:55:36Tucker Carlson?

  Go look up the Diego Rivera, and I hope I'm not screwing this up, but I don't think that I am, mural. I mean, it's wild. Like, he just lays it out there. Like, this is your new religion, vaccines. There's the baby Jesus getting needles in him.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  So crazy.

• 1:55:51Tucker Carlson?

  Right? I mean, there's like ritual bloodletting. I mean, look, I've arrived at this over many years of thinking about it because I can't think of another explanation.

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  It is really hard. I mean, yeah, don't question, don't question authority.

• 1:56:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but and then punish the guy's relatives who questions it?

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  That part, there is that part. Um, but the other thing, too, that I, I have a hard time understanding.

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  The people that are saying

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  that, you know, vaccines were tested, however long ago, 40 years ago, 20 years ago, and they were tested to be fine.

• 1:56:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:36Speaker 02

  So stop asking questions about it. Um, there are drugs on the market all the time that are approved. Then 10 years later, 20 years later, you see a lot of people have been injured and they pull the drug because they're like, this is not working. I mean, they used to x-ray women when they were pregnant in the 50s because

• 1:57:02Tucker Carlson?

  They gave them thalidomide.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Because, because they thought it was a great, you know, new technology to

• 1:57:09Tucker Carlson?

  Nilla wafers were considered a health food when I was a kid because they had weed in them.

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  Because they had weed in them. Remember smoking? Like, your parents would be in a car with the windows rolled up and

• 1:57:20Tucker Carlson?

  100%.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  But they didn't know that at the time that they were harmful or causing cancer to the kids in the back.

• 1:57:28Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's delicious.

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  And then at some point, you know, there's a stop down. People say, oh, we just learned that this is not good for you, that you shouldn't be taking this, that this drug isn't working, that you, you learn things all the time and everybody stops down and makes a new choice, right? And says, oh, okay, yeah, I'm going to stop using that. So it happens all the time. So for people to say it can absolutely not happen with vaccines, there's no way, there's no way to make them better or to, because they're great already. It's like, so strange.

• 1:58:11Tucker Carlson?

  No, but it's a religious concept. Not one word can be added or deleted. It's perfect. It's holy writ. It cannot be changed. It came from God himself. These are the tablets right here. I mean, this is, I know it's hard meditate on this.

• 1:58:30Speaker 02

  I know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about this. No, I have never connected.

• 1:58:34Tucker Carlson?

  So I've met very few people who've had a life with the trajectory that yours has had. I don't even, it's not really an arc. It's more like, as you described, a hairpin turn in this direction, the last, you know, so you grew up in one world and are a completely different world, rise to the top of that world, and then all of a sudden, you're in a completely different world. Like, what are the conclusions you draw from this? What have you learned?

• 1:59:00Tucker Carlson?

  And it's still ongoing, by the way, so I can't, I don't expect.

• 1:59:04Speaker 02

  So what's, what's what you say? No, you know what I've, I've learned of, I mean, I've learned a lot of things, of course. I've learned, and I always felt like I knew what really matters. My family has always been the most important thing to me. That's why.

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  The best thing about getting married is that you get to pick a family member. It's the only time in your life where you get to pick, pick somebody to be a part of your family. And that's pretty amazing. Uh, I learned that that is really the only thing that matters.

• 1:59:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:59:41Speaker 02

  It's your family. So for me, I mean, there have been times with Bobby that when I get frustrated and I feel like, I can't believe you said that or said it like that. And I'm like, why would you do that? Um, and it doesn't matter so little in the big scheme of things.

• 2:00:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:00:06Speaker 02

  What matters is how you love people. And I think too, how you receive love. So even some of my friendships that have, that did not survive this, right? It's too emotional, it's too emotional for them to be friends with me because of what Bobby does. Um, I have learned to, you know, it's, that's okay. And I can still love who they are and what

• 2:00:42Speaker 02

  we had together. I don't have to spend time missing it or being sad or whatever that is. I can step back and say, oh, that person was the right ti- the right person at the right time. And I loved what, what we had.

• 2:01:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:01:06Speaker 02

  And I, and I'm not angry or sad about it. And, and at the same time, you know, I just turned 60. And I'm at a place where I really have learned a lot, just in terms of learning brand new things in my life that I never thought I would. I, I, and it's not, this isn't like we talked about politics. I never set out to, I can't wait to learn a lot about politics.

• 2:01:38Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 2:01:39Speaker 02

  But I did, you know, even in the election, I learned a lot about, um,

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  How to run a campaign, what it looks like from the inside of a presidential campaign. You learn about press and rumors. And if somebody says something enough times, then it becomes the truth to people. So I learned all of that. And even when Bobby, even when Bobby switched to being an independent, just learning every state, you have to have a certain amount of signatures

• 2:02:31Speaker 02

  from different people and you turn them in at different times in the calendar year. So even learning that stuff, which I never wanted to learn, but I know it now. Fascinating to me that now being in DC and now being, being, sitting where I am and seeing what I see and being around the people that I, I'm around. I can say that the people in, in the cabinet, people in the administration really want what's best for this country. And

• 2:03:18Speaker 02

  it may sound silly that I didn't recognize that before because I felt like, well, I'm sure there are people that are in it for themselves and that want, you know, but where I see it, that is not the case. The case is that everybody sits at the table and they say, what can we do to make the country better, to work together? And that was, that's interesting to me. And I keep, I keep, I'm learning more now about politics, about.

• 2:04:00Speaker 02

  How things, what has to happen to change a law or to, or to get something done in DC or to

• 2:04:11Speaker 02

  make a change in the nation? I'm learning all these, you know, sort of big concepts that I otherwise would not have thought about.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  And I, and I find it fascinating. I find the people that I'm sitting next to at dinner fascinating. They're smart and they have hard jobs, very difficult jobs.

• 2:04:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:04:36Speaker 02

  And I think a lot of people, you know, people, people maybe in LA that sit around and say, oh, I could do it so much better. It's like, I don't think so. Otherwise you'd be doing it.

• 2:04:55Tucker Carlson?

  How long were you in LA?

• 2:04:58Tucker Carlson?

  Over 30.

• 2:04:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, over 30 years.

• 2:05:02Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, it just seems to me that given how fast everything is changing, you're so blessed to be in part doing something different, learning new things.

• 2:05:12Speaker 02

  I agree with that, yeah.

• 2:05:13Tucker Carlson?

  And I mean, sometimes the what we think are tragedies turn out to be like the greatest blessings. And I mean, I don't know, you're still interested in stuff, which is pretty great at 60.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Listen, I have a lot of friends who their kids have grown up and moved out and now they're bored and they're trying to figure out how to fill the day.

• 2:05:38Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:05:39Speaker 02

  I don't have that.

• 2:05:40Tucker Carlson?

  And the business they were in is dying or changing really fast.

• 2:05:43Speaker 02

  Really hard, yeah. It's very, the entertainment industry is really a tough place to be in right now. So I find, yeah, I'm like,

• 2:05:54Speaker 02

  I find it fascinating and maybe because, because I have been in the entertainment industry and you know, I mean, there are a lot of films, TV shows about politics and politicians because it's fascinating. And so we like to watch it. We like to watch it play out on the screen, but then to now be in the middle of it, seeing it, it's pretty great.

• 2:06:29Tucker Carlson?

  I love that. Cheryl Hines, you're a deep person and I'm grateful that you came.

• 2:06:34Speaker 02

  Thank you, Tucker. I really liked talking to you.

• 2:06:44Tucker Carlson?

  We've got a new website we hope you will visit. It's called newcommissionnow.com and it refers to a new 9/11 commission. So we spent months putting together our 9/11 documentary series. And if there's one thing we learned, it's that in fact, there was foreknowledge of the attacks. People knew.

• 2:07:05Speaker 06

  The American public deserves to know.

• 2:07:07Tucker Carlson?

  We're shocked actually to learn that, to have that confirmed, but it's true. The evidence is overwhelming. The CIA, for example, knew the hijackers were here in the United States. They knew they were planning an act of terror. In his passport is a visa to go to the United States of America. A foreign national was caught celebrating as the World Trade Center fell and later said he was in New York, quote, "to document the event." How did he know there would be an event to document in the first place? Because he had foreknowledge. And maybe most amazingly, somebody, an unknown investor, shorted American Airlines and United Airlines, the companies whose planes the attackers used on 9/11, as well as the banks that were inside the Twin Towers just before the attacks. They made money on the 9/11 attacks because

• 2:07:50Tucker Carlson?

  they knew they were coming. Who did that? At the evidence. The US government learned the name of that investor, but never released it.

• 2:08:02Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe there's an instant explanation for all this, but there isn't, actually. And by the way, it doesn't matter whether there is or not. The public deserved to know what the hell that was. How did people know ahead of time, oh, I was no one ever punished for it? 9/11 Commission, the original one, was a fraud. It was fake. Its conclusions were written before the investigation. That's true, and it's outrageous. This country needs a new 9/11 Commission, one that actually tells the truth and tries to get to the bottom of the story. We can't just move on like nothing happened.

• 2:08:35Speaker 07

  9/11 Commission is a cover.

• 2:08:38Tucker Carlson?

  Something did happen. We need to force a new investigation into 9/11 almost 25 years later. Sorry, justice demands it. And if you want that, go to newcommissionnow.com to add your name to our petition. We're not getting paid for this or doing this because we really mean it. Newcommissionnow.com.