360. Question Time: Assad’s People - Syria, Torture, and Justice

Are the media ignoring what’s happening in Gaza? Should the UK be boycotting the cricket in Afghanistan? And, how worried should we be about democratic backsliding in Georgia and Venezuela? Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all these questions and more in today's Question Time. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy, a green electricity supplier powering homes across England, Scotland & Wales. Use referral code POLITICS after signing up for your chance to win a TRIP merch bundle. Learn more at GetFuse.com/Politics Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Assistant Producer: India Dunkley + Evan Green Video Editor: Vasco Andrade Social Producer: Jess Kidson Producers: Nicole Maslen + Fiona Douglas Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. And it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not already sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

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• 2:00Speaker 04

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 2:13Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to Rest is Politics' Question Time with me, Alastair Campbell.

• 2:16Rory Stewart?

  And with me, Rory Stewart.

• 2:18Alastair Campbell?

  Now Rory, we did quite a lot of overseas politics in the main podcast. We were going to talk about this, but we kind of ran out of time. But let's start with this. Timothy Baker, "Be great if you could touch on some of the parallels between what's going on in Georgia and Venezuela at the moment. Both countries seem to be in the grip of democratic backsliding, with elections widely recognised as invalid. What's next for the two countries?"

• 2:42Rory Stewart?

  Okay, well, let me start on Georgia. So this is an opportunity to encourage people who haven't heard it. The very, very courageous, originally French-born president of Georgia, who's this remarkable woman, who, to Alistair's sort of astonishment and amusement, is a sort of fluent French-speaking French ambassador to Georgia, who then became the Georgian Foreign Minister and then the Georgian President, has been holding out at these elections. And what happened in the elections is the Georgian Dream Party, which is a pro-Putin party, which has been cutting down on civil society and dissent, and is backed by an oligarch called Yves Chavilla, won the election in very, very dubious circumstances. And there is a very simple demand being made by people protesting on the street, which is for a new set of elections.

• 3:27Rory Stewart?

  And she was hanging on to push for those new elections. And we have for weeks now been trying to encourage European nations to engage and take seriously the fact that for 20 years, Georgia has been an unusual pro-Western ally in the Caucasus, and it's about to fall into the hands of Putin, giving him a key strategic location, linking the Black Sea and the Caspian, Iran and Russia, Turkey and Russia. And it's really depressing. Anyway, over to you on what she thought of it.

• 3:58Alastair Campbell?

  So when we interviewed her, we asked what she was going to do when the new president, this former Manchester City footballer, was sworn in, who's a kind of pro-Putin, Yves Chavilla-placed person. And she said, "I'm not going to answer that question." And I thought at the time that was because she was going to stay put in the presidential residence, but she didn't. In the end, she made a speech, and she said she's leaving, but she is urging people not to recognise this new guy, not to accept the outcome of the elections. But what worries me, to be absolutely frank, is that, you know, it wasn't- I don't think as much on the international radar as it should have been anyway, but it's

• 4:39Alastair Campbell?

  even less so now. There's so much other stuff happens in the world and these things just have a habit of kind of dribbling away. So I I hope she's staying strong. I hope the people of Georgia are staying staying strong, but I think it's going to be pretty difficult.

• 4:53Rory Stewart?

  Just very quickly on that. So the the Americans have stepped up quite strongly on this. I mean, the US is still, for all its problems, is still trying to think strategically about what Putin's trying to do. And what Putin's basically doing is trying to reverse most of the last 20, 30 years in what he's doing in Ukraine, what he's trying to do in Moldova, what he's doing in the Caucasus, you know, Georgia, et cetera. And the Americans have responded by imposing sanctions on Ivan Shvili.

• 5:25Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 5:25Rory Stewart?

  But most of his money is in Europe. So the question is, will the Europeans follow suit? If they did, that would be a real squeeze.

• 5:32Alastair Campbell?

  And they've been trying to, but of course we have, because the European Union, the way that it operates, back to our friend, Mr. Orban and Mr. Fiso in Slovakia, possibly soon to be joined by another pro-Putin leader in Mr. Keke in Austria, they have vetoed attempts to be tougher.

• 5:48Rory Stewart?

  And that's why we keep talking about it. But if this is going to begin happening in the European Union, the European leaders are going to have to get more accustomed to forming smaller groups, which could include the United Kingdom on an issue like this. So no reason why France, Sweden, the UK couldn't have been involved. Very disappointing that the German Foreign Minister didn't visit Georgia, but instead decided to make this rather awkward visit to Syria, when in fact, they could have much more influence on Georgia because Georgia is a European Union candidate state in a way that Syria isn't. And I think there's this terrible sense they've given up. They've given up and they're using the

• 6:25Rory Stewart?

  fact that Fiso and and Orban and the Slovaks are blocking. They've also basically given up on the idea of sanctions. They they seem not to believe that they work anymore.

• 6:41Rory Stewart?

  But I can see a real opportunity if they can just lift their heads, follow the US in imposing the sanctions, we may be able to have another set of elections in Georgia. And fair enough, if the Georgian dream wins the elections fairly, that's fair enough.

• 6:56Alastair Campbell?

  UK did impose sanctions on some of these people who were involved in the crackdowns, which were pretty brutal. And fair play to the people in Georgia who are still out there protesting. But these things have a habit of going away unless the international focus remains on them. Venezuela. So Maduro, it's another election where nobody really believes that Maduro won it, just as nobody believes that the Georgian dream had the result that they announced. But Maduro has announced that he's won, the electoral commissioner's insisted that he's won. They have put out, there's a reward for a hundred thousand dollars for information leading to the capture of Gonzalez, who actually won, who has fled

• 7:39Alastair Campbell?

  to Spain, but has then now come back and is going on this very interesting tour. He's been to Argentina, he's going to Uruguay, he's been to several Latin American countries. And interesting how, when we do get the, it's on Friday, I think, January the 10th, when Maduro is sworn in for another term, very, very, very few world leaders are going to be there. I think he might, he might have decent representation from Russia, he might have decent representation from Iran, from Cuba. But essentially, most of the big powers are either sending an ambassador or not sending anybody at all. The other thing that's really horrific about what's going on in Venezuela. So there's the guy that who's won the election,

• 8:23Alastair Campbell?

  who is, you know, frankly, if he does reappear in Venezuela, he's going to get banged up. And the woman who they banned from running, this very popular Maria Corina Machado, the actual opposition leader, but they barred her from standing, and this Gonzalez guy kind of stood in for her. She's there, but she's living somewhere in secret. She can only communicate by putting videos out. She is basically saying to people, get out on the streets. But it's a very- Difficult call to make that to people who frankly, you know, there were 2,000 people arrested when she first tried to mobilise opposition to what's going on. And worse than that, they basically, the government puts out the line that these people,

• 9:06Alastair Campbell?

  the opposition, they're actually working in league with criminal gangs who are trying to undermine the thing. And so it's going to be horrific. He's going to have all the pomp and he'll have his sash and all that stuff. Hard to see how he gets stopped, but you know, the questioner is right, in both places in different ways, we're seeing democratic backsliding.

• 9:27Rory Stewart?

  Question coming in on Gaza. Martin Dixon, you seem curiously silent, like most of the Western media, on the horrors unfolding daily in Gaza, which many international bodies now say is genocide. Why slide off the issue? And please don't discard this question in the not good for ratings pile. I don't think we have been sliding off Gaza, but Martin, I apologise if you've missed the things where we've talked about it. So for an update on what's happening in Gaza, the Israelis have continued very, very significant operations and bombardments in Gaza, despite the fact that they have achieved most of the objectives that they had set in terms of killing the major figures in the Hamas

• 10:11Rory Stewart?

  leadership, and despite the successful attacks on Lebanon, which killed the Hezbollah leadership, most of its senior people. It's very difficult to understand what Israel is achieving by continuing to do this, apart from allowing Netanyahu to remain in power and keep his coalition going, because it's the demand of the far right in his cabinet, that they keep pummeling Gaza. The negotiations have restarted again in Qatar, and the negotiations focus on the release of hostages. Meanwhile, Israel is killing a lot of people, just killed another two journalists, just killed another 57 people in a day. I've just taken out the Indonesian hospital and Tom Fletcher, who we should, I think, interview on leading, who's the new

• 10:56Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 10:57Rory Stewart?

  UN representative, has now said that there are effectively no hospitals at all functioning in Gaza and the World Food Programme has pointed out that attacks are happening against their convoys. So the ongoing situation in Gaza, horrifying and actually after the killing of the senior leaders in Hamas and after the amount of destruction and 50,000 deaths, very difficult to understand why, what possible strategic advantage Israel thinks it's achieving by continuing to kill so many people.

• 11:28Alastair Campbell?

  I think Martin does have a fair point. Martin Dixon, who asked the question, it's not that we haven't been silent, we've talked about this most weeks in some shape or form. But I guess, I think we're back to the point that we were making in relation to Georgia a moment ago, that because of the way that the pace of politics in the modern age, the pace of media and so forth, this is just, it's almost like, I do make a point of watching Al Jazeera at some point most days because they have not left it. And interestingly, Al Jazeera, as we said, is now banned both by the Israelis and the Palestinians. Now, I never buy that thing when the BBC say, if we're being attacked by all sides, it means

• 12:12Alastair Campbell?

  we're getting something right. It's not automatically the case. But I do think with Al Jazeera, they have done a very, a really important service. Yes, they're biased, they come from a certain perspective, but they do make an effort to keep trying to explain what is actually happening inside Gaza. And that statement you just made, there is now effectively no real hospital care inside Gaza, that should make everybody pause for thought. I saw an interview, I think it was on Channel 4 News the other day, with a doctor who'd just come back from Gaza. And you could see the sort of visceral sense of anger and loss and impotence, that you've got no idea. And of course, we don't have an idea because

• 12:54Alastair Campbell?

  we can't see it properly. So I think, Martin, we're all affected by the fact that the Israelis have very effectively

• 13:03Alastair Campbell?

  Kept public support at home pretty strong, given that Netanyahu is so unpopular. They have kept the issue kind of, you know, internationally, they've managed to keep it, get it down a bit. And when you say what is, it's hard to see what their strategy is, I think their strategy for some time has been, let's wait for Trump and let's see what happens when Trump comes in.

• 13:24Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Alastair Campbell?

  And we'll see, we'll see. But, but even Trump, we said in the main podcast that Trump's been quite quiet recently. I can't remember the last time he said much about the Middle East.

• 13:32Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 13:33Alastair Campbell?

  So we're back to the theme of impunity.

• 13:35Rory Stewart?

  One of the things that is now right front and centre for Britain, and, and remember, you know, the British National Security Council will be having updates on Gaza once a week. Keir Starmer will be very focused on this issue and it's an issue that really matters to a lot of his key voting groups, matters a lot to his party, matters a lot to British people. But for Britain, for Europe, for the Gulf and for the US, the question is increasingly what happens next? So let's say hostages released, let's say there is a ceasefire. It's a lot of ifs there because Netanyahu has blocked these things as have Hamas in the past, that if that happens, what then happens in reconstruction of Gaza?

• 14:18Rory Stewart?

  And that's where I'm very gloomy because anybody volunteering, let's say Saudis, Emiratis volunteer to provide an interim administration and security in Gaza with money coming in from Europe and the US, I'm worried that it is a hiding to nothing because Israel will continue to blame whoever is running Gaza if there are any security attacks. The Palestinians in Gaza, on the other hand, will accuse whoever's running Gaza of being a stooge for Israel. Israel can at any moment enter the country and attack people, it can close off borders and stop the economic activity. We learnt how difficult nation building was in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in Gaza, I

• 15:03Rory Stewart?

  think it's not that we will have learnt the lessons and found it easier, I think it'll be that much more difficult because of the situation they're in.

• 15:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is, it is, it is unbelievably depressing and, and. You know, I think we obviously you said there, Kirsten, we'll be getting briefed and Britain does have a role and Britain should have a role, given our part in the history of this whole thing. But I was at a charity event last night. It was the historian Peter Frankopan and I in conversation, as it were. And he is a very, very clever guy. And also, he's one of the few Brits that I know who has a kind of relationship with Xi Jinping. And he was making the point that on all of these big foreign policy questions as Trump comes in, essentially, if you look at the sort of bandwidth of American diplomacy and Chinese diplomacy, the bandwidth of both, he was making the point, essentially is taken up

• 15:54Alastair Campbell?

  with each other. And so we'll see when Trump, I mean, Trump has been wanging on about Greenland and wanging on about, you know, Panama Canal and so forth. But actually, the essential which China is going to be such a big focus of a lot of their time and energy and effort, I think is another reason why I'm not, I could be completely wrong about this, I don't know. But I don't yet feel the signs and see the signals that this is going to be Trump's first big foreign policy priority.

• 16:24Rory Stewart?

  No, and I'm not sure, to some extent, these new brand of leaders really have foreign policy priorities. I mean, I think they're increasingly concerned about what happens at home. They're increasingly concerned with doing things which pretty much erode democracy and rights in their own countries, rather than supporting democracy and rights in other people's countries.

• 16:44Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. Now, what about this, we'll go to a break, Rory, because we haven't, honestly, I don't think we talk enough about Brexit on this podcast. Judy Abel, thinking of the recent independent front page on the eye-watering costs of Brexit, what will it take for UK Labour who say they want growth to start meaningfully addressing this issue, e.g. considering whether it's time for another EU referendum? Now, I don't know if you saw, did you see the independent front page?

• 17:12Rory Stewart?

  No.

• 17:13Alastair Campbell?

  So there we are, I'll show it to you.

• 17:14Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Alastair Campbell?

  Five years on the true cost of Brexit and it's 30.2 billion cost of our settlement divorce, 27 billion drop in goods exports, 15% long-term hit to UK trade, 118,000 tonnes drop in seafood exports, so and so and so, it goes on and on and on, 2.3 million net migration since the end of free movement, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the facts, I know I'm biased, I freely acknowledge that, but the factual analysis that anybody who makes without bias from the other side, the question is right, whether it's referendum, I don't know, but Judy's question about how are we going to get growth unless we fix this mess? How's that going to happen?

• 18:00Rory Stewart?

  And we're in a world where Trump is going to put up tariff barriers, so protection on trade, charge people for selling to the US. Is the world we need to be closer to the European markets in a customs union where we have tariff-free, quota-free, full trade with European Union markets? In a world in which there are pressures, where we need people to work for the health service, where we need people to work in critical industries, is exactly the world in which we should be signing up for young Europeans as opposed to people from all the wealthy world coming over on visas in the way that Europe offered? And in a world in which we're worried about security, where we're talking about why can't

• 18:45Rory Stewart?

  Europe pull its act together on Georgia, why can't it pull its act together on Ukraine, why can't pull its act together on any of this stuff? Britain needs to be much, much closer in. So why does Starmer, who has a cracking majority, not say, look, okay, I accept the Brexit vote happened, but we are going to be in a new relationship with Europe, but it's going to be a close relationship with Europe, and it's going to start with a customs union, and it's going to have the visa travel for young people back and forth, and it's going to have strong security cooperation, and we're going to lead with Europe because Europe actually needs Britain now. It's a time where with France and Germany weak,

• 19:28Rory Stewart?

  Britain engaging on foreign policy and defence will be central.

• 19:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Okay, well, let's take a quick break. When we come back, prepare yourself, I'm going to ask you a question about cricket.

• 19:37Rory Stewart?

  Oh, looking forward to that after the break. Bye bye.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig.

• 19:46Speaker 04

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• 19:47Speaker 03

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• 20:06Speaker 05

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• 20:07Speaker 04

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• 21:18Rory Stewart?

  Welcome back to the Rest is Politics question time with me Rory Stewart.

• 21:22Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Alastair Campbell. And technically, it is a political question, but it is about cricket. Helen Mullin, Rory. The upcoming cricket match between England and Afghanistan. Why are we not boycotting based on the Taliban laws restricting women? Why is the international community doing nothing?

• 21:40Rory Stewart?

  Well, good question, and I think it's true. The Taliban do run a gender apartheid state. Why is it difficult? It's difficult because we spent 20 years in that country and we made a royal mess of it. And tens of thousands of people were dying a year. The Taliban took over the country and it's much safer. We don't have tens of thousands of people dying a year, a few hundred people dying a year. Security is restored. When I was back there in August, for the first time in over 20 years, you can travel safely through the country. The Taliban have very repressive views on women, but they've also in other ways changed. They have taken a much better attitude towards religious minorities, the Shia group,

• 22:24Rory Stewart?

  for example, in Bamian than they had last time around. And they're running a country which is crippled by sanctions, where its economy can't get off the ground. Afghanistan is rapidly degenerating to becoming one of the poorest countries in the world. And I'm a bit disturbed by the fact that with real horror happening in Gaza, with everything we've talked about with Georgia and Venezuela, with what Putin's doing in Ukraine, that it's convenient for people to make it all about Afghanistan. And I think in the list of priorities of people you should be sanctioning in sporting occasions, Afghanistan isn't one of them, and partly because it's one of the countries where it's clearest

• 23:08Rory Stewart?

  in the world that sanctions are completely irrelevant. The Taliban are not like the classic corrupt Russian oligarch or classic corrupt Nigerian politician who wants to go shopping in Harrods and is going to be affected by sanctions. They've been living in caves for 22 years. They don't give a flying monkeys about shopping in Harrods or international sporting recognition. And all you're doing by doing that is affecting the teams that are going abroad and having zero impact on any change in Afghanistan. There are interesting things you can do in Afghanistan. There are splits emerging within the Taliban. There are more reforming groups in Kabul. But nothing is stupider than Britain trying to develop a unilateral policy

• 23:52Rory Stewart?

  of beating up Afghanistan, when actually most of the problems there were caused by us. And a lot of what we're doing now is just a form of guilt because we can't acknowledge that we abandoned the country, the Taliban, and now think we can deal with it by telling them off at cricket.

• 24:07Alastair Campbell?

  Was there ever a point in recent history where you might have felt that, say because of Saudi Arabia's attitudes on some of the deeply social conservatism?

• 24:19Alastair Campbell?

  Where would you have stood in the argument that said the occasional non diplomatic, cultural, social engagement might be a good thing to do to push them in a direction that we want? And do you think the fact that they have become more integrated into the sort of global sporting community might have been because they picked up on some of those campaigns?

• 24:42Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, I mean, I think sanctions can work. I think they were really, really important in South Africa in ending apartheid. I think they've had a pretty mixed result elsewhere. I mean, there was a huge debate in Myanmar. There's a fantastic Burmese writer, Tampin Yu, who's just written a book that I really recommend about to come out on his grandfather, Uthant, the Secretary General of the UN, and this amazing moment where there was a Burmese Secretary General and people from the Global South were running the international system in the 60s. He, though, was quite quick to point out that in many ways, the sanctions in Myanmar didn't do what we wanted. They didn't make the regime change its behaviour. They didn't improve conditions for Burmese people. They simply made us feel good about

• 25:26Rory Stewart?

  ourselves. The brutal truth in Afghanistan is if you want leverage and influence over Afghanistan, we had it when we were in Afghanistan, when we had 2,500 American troops sitting in a base, when the capital cities were controlled by an American and British backed government. When we decided to withdraw from that country and hand the country to the Taliban, which we did almost overnight, all these attempts then to fantasize about what are we going to do to change the regime in Afghanistan, change human rights in Afghanistan, I think is unrealistic. And a lot of it is actually damaging because a lot of it means that charities on the ground who are working with women and who are able to support some

• 26:10Rory Stewart?

  education for women, even though it's difficult, jobs and livelihoods for women, are being undermined because people are feeling good about themselves, saying, well, we're not going to give any money to the Taliban. And of course, it also feeds, and I'm now going to really irritate people, I'm afraid, we're in a culture now where it really suits a lot of people, particularly on the far right, to emphasize Muslim countries where women are not treated correctly, because it helps to whip up the general antipathy towards Islam and distracts attention. From the parts of the world which they're more sympathetic to.

• 26:43Alastair Campbell?

  Now, I was hopeful we were going to get through the entire episode without mentioning the richest person in the world who owns a 600 million people based social media platform. But you mentioned South Africa and you mentioned the role that this had all played in in bringing the end of apartheid, which I think was, I think sport did play a really big part in that. Can I make an appeal to the media? And I think this was Times Radio. I don't honestly think that the parents of Elon Musk are sensible, credible voices on the politics of the United Kingdom. I think if you're going to interview Elon Musk's parents, maybe

• 27:26Alastair Campbell?

  we should try and get them on the podcast. You should be interviewing them about what on earth they did to create this person who has become what he's now become. Elon Musk's father was on the radio, Rory, explaining why, just as people used to say Nelson Mandela would never be president, the same people are probably now saying Tommy Robinson could never be prime minister. I just think our media needs to shake its head a bit. I know Elon Musk at the moment is sort of good clickbait, but just ask yourselves the question, how is that helping any debate going? Rant over.

• 28:05Rory Stewart?

  Okay, okay. I mean, my goodness, that it does seem as though Elon Musk's father's inflicted some damage on the world. I mean, you've seen these interviews with him where people say to him, are you proud of your son? And he says, no, God's completely useless, can't even can't even fix a vehicle. And you can see clearly part of what's inflicting misery and pain on the world is Elon Musk's attempt to try to impress his father. Okay, here's a question, which Declan Costello, listening to the stories emerging from Syria, I'm reminded the brutality of the Assad regime. Clearly had thousands of people prepared to commit horrendous crimes against their fellow citizens. I personally find it unimaginable that anyone could elicit such cruelty to another person.

• 28:49Rory Stewart?

  But in war zones around the world, history tells us there are many people who are prepared to do this. How do normal citizens become torturers? What are the politics of torture? How are so many people mobilized to do this? I'd like to come to you on this because it's something that British people and Americans often want to believe isn't relevant to them. And that was partly because Britain and the United States were not occupied during the Second World War. They didn't have to deal in the same way that many other people did with Japanese or German occupation, with collaboration, and they haven't been through the experience the Balkans went through recently or that Syria's been through. But generally, reading good books on Germany or good books on Syria,

• 29:34Rory Stewart?

  what you realize is how many, many, many millions of people, and that will include many people in the UK and the US, in the right conditions, will get involved in barbarity, willing to get involved in torture, and will do absolutely horrifying things. And that that's why this movement of the far right is so dangerous, that it's quite a thin line that holds us back from abandoning all the values that we believe in and getting involved in this stuff. Over to you.

• 30:05Alastair Campbell?

  When Fiona and I were watching Say Nothing, which I said was my TV series of 2024, and there were parts of the story, this is the story of the IRA and Gerry Adams in particular, and there was stuff about the way that the British military was operating, and some of the stuff that the British military did. Now, this is a dramatized account, but at several points Fiona would turn to me and saying, our soldiers didn't do that sort of stuff, did they? And it's quite hard for me to say no, whether they exactly did what was being depicted at the time. And so I think you're right that we look at places that are, the further away they are.

• 30:48Alastair Campbell?

  Either in time, so like you look at modern Germany and you think, well, there's no way they could go back to what they were in the 30s and 40s, or in distance, so Syria, a long way away, people that don't look like us, don't sound like us, and we find it easier to imagine. What the question is about is whether there's something basically within all of us that we could be driven to that by ideology, by leadership, by people making us feel that if we didn't behave in a certain way, we would ourselves be tortured or punished. One of the worst things that came out of Syria when the prisoners were released was

• 31:30Alastair Campbell?

  people giving these interviews of where they were basically told, you know, kill him or we'll kill you, rape him or we'll rape you. And it's unimaginable, but you know, let's not pretend that we couldn't, you know, there's something when, depending on the circumstances, we shouldn't pretend that this is going to localise to places like Syria.

• 31:53Rory Stewart?

  I've talked before about this book by Christopher Browning called Police Battalion 101, which was a German police battalion of older men deployed to Poland. And the reason it's so interesting is they managed to get interviews with over 100 of them after the war. And these were not particularly Nazis, not particularly ideologically motivated young fanatics, they were just kind of greengazers and labourers and shopkeepers who, as older men, had gone into this reserve police battalion. And one of the things that comes out of it is that although many Germans after the war claimed that the reason they did these things is that they would have been killed if they didn't, is that that isn't the case for this

• 32:37Rory Stewart?

  battalion. In fact, three or four of them do refuse to kill Jewish women and children. What makes them do it is more a sense of being a good team player, being one of the boys. So you can see them, those that don't do the killing are a bit apologetic and say things like, well, of course, I didn't want to kill these Jews because, you know, I had some Jewish friends, but I fully understand why my colleagues did because they had to have careers after the war in the police service and I didn't need to worry about a career in the police service. And then the guys that do it say, well, it's all very well for them, you know, to get on their high horses and say they weren't going to kill them, but that just meant I had to kill even more. While they were all, you

• 33:22Rory Stewart?

  know, loitering around at the trucks, feeling good about themselves. Do you think it's nice going out there killing people? I had to murder all these women and children. I have nightmares about it because my bloody colleagues were too high minded to get on with the dirty work and do it with me. So, and what I took away from this is the incredible way in which group loyalty, being a good sport, being a good team player, ties into these institutions and makes people do horrendous things because we want to fit in, we want to comply, we want to be part of the group, want to conform.

• 33:55Alastair Campbell?

  Let's bring it back home to the UK. Tom Brown. Last week, the head of Prospect Union, Mike Clancy, suggested now is the moment to reset relations between ministers and civil servants following another rocky period. Tom Brown then goes on to plug a book he's written called The Mind of the Minister. What should the head of the civil service, Chris Wermold, prioritise to improve relationships with ministers? How can ministers maximise the civil service to deliver their ambitious goals? I thought, by the way, back to our current leading interview we've got on the feed with Ben Wallace, former Defence Secretary, I thought one of the really interesting parts of that interview was when he talked about his experience as PPS, sort of, you know, lowest ministerial, sub ministerial

• 34:40Alastair Campbell?

  rank, and his relationship with Ken Clark, to whom he was PPS, who involved him in decisions. And because he felt that the civil service actually was trying to keep him out. And I thought it was a really interesting example of where if a minister insists on something, by and large, they can get it. And so I think that this is a moment to reset relations. I was at, at this event I talked to, talking to you about with Peter Frank, and there was somebody there who works with the civil service, who said that they have felt really demoralised in recent years, whipping boys for the government, whipping boys for the, for the media, not being motivated, not being sort of promoted properly.

• 35:21Alastair Campbell?

  And one of the bits I didn't like in Keir Starmer's reset speeches were that, that line he had about, you know, the tepid bath of complacency and, you know, accepting decline and all that. I, I think, I think the civil service needs a lot of support, moral support, practical support. But that being said, if a government comes in and says, you have got to be part of driving reform, the reform that we want, then they shouldn't be blockers, they should be facilitators. Yes, giving advice, yes, pointing out all the pitfalls. And ultimately, I think, provided they do get clear ministerial direction, good civil servants are going to go with that.

• 36:00Rory Stewart?

  Civil service is much more at the heart of our political problems and our future, I think, than people want to acknowledge. We, we pretend that, you know, what matters is the ministers who come in and out, but the ministers are not specialists, there are very few of them, and they're not there for very long. The machine's run by the civil service. And many of the things that are driving the public up the wall, which are things like how slow it is to get planning done, you know, why do we spend over a hundred million pounds on the Thames Tideway Tunnel, just in the planning bit before we build anything? Why does so much happen that seems kind of contrary to common sense? All this kind of stuff that you were talking about in the last podcast, Pierre Poliev in his interview keeps banging on about, right, that people relate to.

• 36:43Rory Stewart?

  A lot of that is to do with law, process and civil service procedures. And if you really wanted to create much, much more vigorous, rapid government that was able to build roads more quickly, get tunnels done, get houses built, turnaround systems. You'd really have to be very, very adventurous in the way that you led the civil service. And I agree with you, that doesn't involve trashing, that involves giving them a real sense of ambition, optimism, moral purpose and backing. You've got to make them feel safe because again and again, I found as a minister, I was having to say to civil servants, I'll take responsibility for this.

• 37:27Rory Stewart?

  Do you want me to sign this piece of paper saying I decided this? It's not you that's going to get in trouble. Let's take some risk here, I'll take the risk for you.

• 37:36Alastair Campbell?

  My last question, Rory, very personal one. Palmer, this is a question to you. Rory, did Alistair remember your birthday? And did he get you anything for it?

• 37:45Rory Stewart?

  Well, Alistair has actually done the most lovely birthday present in the world.

• 37:49Alastair Campbell?

  No, it was a Christmas, I didn't know it was your birthday.

• 37:51Rory Stewart?

  Oh, oh, well, there's a lovely present anyway. Let me pay tribute to the present.

• 37:57Alastair Campbell?

  All right, pay tribute, I've got the present here, but the only, but this was a Christmas present. When is your birthday?

• 38:02Rory Stewart?

  The 3rd of January, you missed it by four days.

• 38:04Alastair Campbell?

  You're a day after Fionn, Fionn is the 2nd of January.

• 38:06Rory Stewart?

  That's a very good time.

• 38:07Alastair Campbell?

  So what is that, you're a, what are they called? Capricorn, are they good people?

• 38:12Rory Stewart?

  I think we're meant to be quite ambitious, we're like rams, kind of gauding rams. What are you, what's your star sign?

• 38:18Alastair Campbell?

  I'm a Gemini.

• 38:19Rory Stewart?

  Oh, listen, I should encourage people, talking about star signs, the Victorian Album Museum has an amazing exhibition called Great Muggles, which has a sign to the zodiac, including Gemini, very beautifully displayed, cut onto gold coins by a Mughal emperor. But that's not the real reason to go, the real reason to go is it's got everything. Astonishing miniature painting, beautiful textiles, credible stoneworks. So if somebody's looking for an afternoon out, Great Muggles, the Victorian Album Museum. Anyway, Alistair's present, here we are, show us the present and I want to describe it to people. Okay, so get this, this is a poem.

• 38:52Alastair Campbell?

  A poem?

• 38:53Rory Stewart?

  Pipe tune, which is, and it's, is it called the Rory Stewart's Pots?

• 38:58Alastair Campbell?

  No, it's called The March of Rory Stewart's Pots.

• 39:00Rory Stewart?

  The March of Rory Stewart's Pots.

• 39:02Alastair Campbell?

  Because as you know, Rory, it was a six, eight march. I bet you can't, I bet you can't even remember the tune, can you? Go on.

• 39:08Rory Stewart?

  No, I can't, I wouldn't be able to remember the tune and I need to play it for you on a chanter. I need to get a chanter over here and play it. So anyway, he wrote this pipe tune for the March of my pots, because I'm really into pots. And he's now written it out beautifully and framed it so that the thing is there for posterity. Have you written down much of the music you've composed?

• 39:25Alastair Campbell?

  I can play on a chanter now, because I always had the chanter on my desk. I do write quite a lot of music, yeah, but what I tend to do is I write it as I'm playing. And only if I like it, do I then record it. And I then send it to my friend Findlay McDonald, who very cheekily on this thing put improved by Findlay McDonald.

• 39:43Rory Stewart?

  What were his improvements? What did he do that changed it?

• 39:45Alastair Campbell?

  None, other than he put it down on paper. And he probably got AI to do that anyway. But he's the head of the National Piping Centre in Glasgow. But so, so it's a lovely tune. It's a six eight march. But I do write a lot of tunes. Yeah.

• 39:58Rory Stewart?

  We're going to finish with this. You're going to get your chanter out. You're going to play the tune for us. That'll be the end of our question time episode.

• 40:03Alastair Campbell?

  Okay.

• 40:30Rory Stewart?

  God, it's beautiful. And the grace notes are incredibly good. And your fingers are very precise. This is very impressive stuff. I hope Findlay McDonald is impressed as I am.

• 40:39Alastair Campbell?

  When I next see you, you'll have that. I've got one downstairs in the kitchen, which was one I wrote for Fiona's 50th birthday. I've written quite a few laments. I like a good lament.

• 40:48Rory Stewart?

  It's a great march. And my memory of marches, of course, is my very brief time in the Black Watch. Of course, we, we marched behind the pipes almost every day because we were then a Type B Home Defence Battalion based in Shropshire. So we were doing a lot of marching. But that's a great march. That would really get people striding out with a kind of bit of a spring in their step.

• 41:07Alastair Campbell?

  Well, if there's anybody from the, any of the military piping schools listening, you're welcome.

• 41:11Rory Stewart?

  Thank you. Well, on that, we shall finish. Thank you, Arista, very much. See you soon. Bye bye.

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