A dietitian and doctor review RFK Jr's new food pyramid

The new food pyramid https://realfood.gov/ was released earlier this year. It emphasizes protein, full-fat dairy and what Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. calls “healthy fats.” These guidelines influence the standards for school lunches, food labeling and programs like SNAP. Today on the show, Short Wave co-host Emily Kwong chats with registered dietitian nutritionist Shana Spence https://www.thenutritiontea.com/about, and Dr. Sarah Kim https://profiles.ucsf.edu/sarah.kim, a diabetes specialist, about the new guidelines. Plus, NPR’s Reflect America fellow Kadin Mills https://www.npr.org/people/g-s1-90680/kadin-mills unpacks how the new food pyramid could change school lunch trays. Check out more of Kadin’s coverage https://www.npr.org/2026/02/05/nx-s1-5691598/school-lunch-food-pyramid-usda-dietary-guidelines about the changes in dietary guidelines. Interested in more health science? Email us your question at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Listen to every episode of Short Wave sponsor-free and support our work at NPR by signing up for Short Wave+ at plus.npr.org/shortwave http://plus.npr.org/shortwave. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

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• 0:21Emily Kwong?

  Hey, Short Wavers. Emily Kwong here. So earlier this year, the new inverted food pyramid dropped. You know, the one that emphasizes protein, full-fat dairy, and what Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. calls healthy fats at the top. This pyramid, it was big news for a couple of days, then maybe you forgot about it. But it is important because it reflects new dietary guidelines. These come directly from the federal government and could influence school lunches, food labeling, and programs like SNAP. So here to talk about how the food pyramid may change school lunch trays is Kadin Mills, NPR'S Reflect America Fellow. Hey, Kadin.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Hi, Emily.

• 1:00Emily Kwong?

  Hi. Okay, so I've been out of school for a while. What are the kids eating these days?

• 1:05Speaker 02

  I actually got a tour of a kitchen at Mary H. Matula Elementary School in Maryland. And like a lot of schools, they rely on ready-made meals that they can easily heat up.

• 1:15Emily Kwong?

  Mmm, okay.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  With the exception of fruit and veggies, almost everything comes pre-packed. And what are you serving today?

• 1:22Speaker 03

  We have French bread pizza. We have rotini and garlic bread. We have broccoli and carrots. And then our crispy chicken salads. And then we'll have our juices here and our cup fruits here.

• 1:33Emily Kwong?

  Mozzarella stick day was prized at my school.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  The Bosco stick?

• 1:36Emily Kwong?

  Yes, delicious, delicious. Who's this?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  So that's Alicia Bassett. She's the Food and Nutrition Manager at Matula Elementary. And the lunch menu she's describing is based on the 2020 guidelines set by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and HHS.

• 1:51Speaker 03

  Down here, they can get a salad cup, a fresh apple, a fresh orange, bananas. Zucchini, coleslaw, broccoli slaw. Got it going on down here.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  They've got everything. So, schools that receive federal funding for their school meals have to follow strict standards set by the USDA.

• 2:11Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  From limits on added sugars and salt to the number of calories that come from saturated fats. And those standards must be in line with the dietary guidelines, which have now changed.

• 2:22Emily Kwong?

  OK. So with the new pyramid, how could school lunch trays look different?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we don't really know yet. USDA hasn't released their nutrition standards based on this new pyramid yet. And it could take a few years. But one big difference in the new guidelines is protein.

• 2:40Emily Kwong?

  Oh, yes, our friends' meat and dairy and eggs and more.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so right now, there's no rule saying that schools have to include those proteins in breakfast. But the new guidelines recommend eating protein with every meal.

• 2:54Emily Kwong?

  Oh.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  So we'll have to wait and see if USDA will mandate that in the future.

• 3:00Emily Kwong?

  Today on the show, we dive into the science behind the updated guidelines, what it means for kids and for adults, and ask if we should change how we eat. I'm Emily Kwong. You're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.

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• 4:45Emily Kwong?

  If you haven't already, look up the new food pyramid. It prioritizes protein, dairy, and quote-unquote "healthy fats", all of which is represented in this artful painting topped with roast chicken and broccoli and cheese. So I will say this, aesthetically, the food pyramid could make for some very nice wall art. Whoever painted this ate, literally. And the pyramid as painted is interesting.

• 5:09Emily Kwong?

  That laughter you're hearing is from registered dietitian Shana Spence.

• 5:12Speaker 06

  Hello.

• 5:13Emily Kwong?

  And beautiful as it is, we wanted to ask Shawna what she thought of the pyramid scientifically.

• 5:19Speaker 06

  You know, as I expected. Emphasis on protein. And I get it, right? I'm a dietitian. We need protein in our diets, for sure. But this is a bit excessive. We're seeing protein being added in everything, from like Pop-Tarts to, you know, cereals, all this stuff. And I was actually pleasantly surprised. I'm like, oh, they did keep fruits and vegetables at least, so that's good. But yes, I was not surprised at the emphasis on protein.

• 5:47Emily Kwong?

  And one thing that we've been especially confused by is the fats conversation. So this administration has talked about ending the war on healthy fats. What do they mean by that?

• 6:01Speaker 06

  Yes, we need healthy fats in our diet, for sure. But they they're emphasizing still meat. And in my mind, right, as a dietitian, someone licensed, healthy fats includes, you know, things like avocados, nuts, seeds, right, olive oil, things like that. Not red meat. Um, you know, when we're talking about red meat, it there has been a link towards cardiovascular illnesses and diseases because of the saturated fat.

• 6:37Emily Kwong?

  Yeah, and saturated fats, of course, these are fats that are solid at room temperature.

• 6:41Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 6:42Emily Kwong?

  Like butter. Among it also includes butter, cheese, red meat.

• 6:45Speaker 06

  Exactly, exactly. Like, pretty much the sources that would come from animal products.

• 6:51Emily Kwong?

  And what does nutrition have to say about saturated fat? Like, what does a diet heavy in saturated fat do to our bodies?

• 6:58Speaker 06

  So it's linked to high cholesterol levels, like your LDL, which is the quote unquote, the bad cholesterol.

• 7:06Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 7:06Speaker 06

  The cardiovascular diseases, right, leading to certain illnesses like heart disease, strokes. So that's why we really, we meaning health professionals, dietitians.

• 7:18Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 06

  We really emphasize having a diet low in saturated fat.

• 7:24Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 06

  Red meat can be included, like, you know, I always say all foods can fit, but we can go about it in a way that makes sense.

• 7:33Emily Kwong?

  Yeah. And you'd prefer fats that are like mono unsaturated or polyunsaturated, like you said, nuts, avocados. On the on the topic of saturated fats, it's interesting that though the pyramid encourages more red meat consumption, at least visually, there's like a big steak at the top.

• 7:55Speaker 06

  And that's that's the part I remember the most when looking at it, the steak.

• 7:59Emily Kwong?

  The written guidance is the same as the 2011 MyPlate recommendations, which is to make no more than 10% of your calories from saturated fat. So the number is the same, is capped at that 10% saturated fat, no more, even though they're saying, but please eat more red meat, people. Like, how do you square those two things?

• 8:20Speaker 06

  It's and it's and that's what's so frustrating is that, you know, when I, when you first look at the triangle, you're thinking, oh, my gosh, I have to, instead of making half my plate fruits and vegetables, I need to be making half my plate meat.

• 8:38Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 06

  And then you have to look at an entirely different section to look at the actual written out recommendations. And that, and then the recommendations haven't changed that much. You know, as a dietitian, I agree with the do not exceed 10%.

• 8:55Emily Kwong?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 06

  So it's a little confusing and they even have also written out plant, plant-based proteins are great. They even, they even mentioned fiber, I remember. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you mentioned fiber, right? So I just think it's very confusing.

• 9:14Emily Kwong?

  Thanks to registered dietitian Shana Spence. And she's totally right, by the way, about the protein thing. I mean, I don't know if you all have noticed, but protein is everywhere. It is mixed into coffee drinks. Giant powdered tubs of it are flying off the grocery store shelves. But we on Shorewave, we wanted to know, like, how much protein do we really need?

• 9:34Speaker 07

  That's a really good question.

• 9:35Emily Kwong?

  That's Sarah Kim, a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.

• 9:40Speaker 07

  Okay, so the, first of all, the guidelines say 1.2 to 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. You can get all the protein you need from plant sources. And kudos to the, the food recommendations here. When it talks about proteins, it actually does say, consume a variety of proteins from animal sources, including eggs, as well as a variety of plant sourced protein foods, including beans, peas, lentils, legumes, nuts, seeds and soy. And the amount of protein that one needs can really vary from person to person, depending on their circumstances. Extra protein, you know, that you, that you eat in a day does, is not really stored as protein.

• 10:25Speaker 07

  Your body can't store extra proteins for possible future use like it can store fat. And so extra protein that you take in a day, that's more than you need in a day, is then converted into sugar and fat. So eating tons of protein does not mean that you will make tons of muscle.

• 10:47Speaker 07

  You need to actually balance the amount of protein you eat with muscle, exercise, muscle, building exercise.

• 10:56Speaker 07

  In order to see the rewards of that.

• 10:57Emily Kwong?

  Okay. I'm wondering, Dr. Kim, was there anything about the previous food pyramid that I grew up with or the MyPlate guidelines that were introduced later in 2011 that you were glad to see gone? Or anything that you wish had been kept?

• 11:17Speaker 07

  Sure. Like, all of these foods I'm seeing on this pyramid and in past pyramids, they look pretty good. They're like healthy-ish foods, you know, minimally processed.

• 11:25Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 07

  And I would say that's the one recommendation that I wholeheartedly agree with is like, eat real food. I completely agree with that.

• 11:33Emily Kwong?

  Right.

• 11:33Speaker 07

  What I would advise against is being fooled by products that are marketed as healthy because they have some feature of some food guideline.

• 11:49Speaker 07

  You know, that puts an artificial halo on that food product.

• 11:53Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 07

  That is where we went wrong.

• 11:56Emily Kwong?

  Yeah. Now, these dietary guidelines, because they come from the federal government, they do influence certain things, like school lunches, food on military bases. So how do you hope people use this pyramid? Just knowing that it does have real-world impacts.

• 12:13Speaker 07

  Looking holistically at the pyramid, I would say we might run into problems with an overemphasis on protein. Because of what expense, you know, cost to the environment of making a lot of protein, and especially animal protein. That's going to be tricky. What I love to see, you know, animal proteins of, you know, some frequency or other protein sources for people who don't want to eat animal proteins. Plus, all of those fruits and vegetables that I see on the pyramid, plus whole grains. Absolutely. You know, the quality of school lunches,

• 12:57Speaker 07

  I would love to see that get to the level of real food, whole foods, when only processed foods. Because I think right now it probably is fairly processed.

• 13:07Emily Kwong?

  That is completely consistent with these school cafeterias. So much of their world is like highly processed, ready to eat foods that are warmed up.

• 13:16Speaker 07

  You know, if a school lunch just looked like that pyramid, I think I would be quite happy.

• 13:27Emily Kwong?

  If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. It really helps our show out. And consider checking out our other episode featuring Sarah Kim. That's the one on blood sugar.

• 13:39Emily Kwong?

  This episode was produced by Rachel Carlson and our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez. It was edited by Brent Bachman. Arun Nair and Tyler Jones checked the facts. Kwasi Lee was the audio engineer. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.

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