11: Bound, Tied & Gagged: What Really Happened Inside This Mansion? | Rebecca Zahau

Fourteen years after 32-year-old Rebecca Zahau was found hanging, naked, bound, and gagged behind the Spreckels Mansion in Coronado, the mystery surrounding her death remains as unsettling as the day it happened. Officials ruled it a suicide, just as they labeled the fall of her boyfriend’s 6-year-old son, an incident that occurred only two days earlier, an accident. But Rebecca’s family has never accepted that explanation. Their relentless search for answers has uncovered strange evidence, disputed timelines, explosive accusations, and claims of a botched investigation they say still hides the truth. As new voices step forward and old questions resurface, revisit one of California’s most haunting and controversial cases…. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources 10News | ABC News | AZCentral | CBS 8 | Dr. Phil | E! News | FOX 5 San Diego | HLN | LA Times | NBC News | NBC San Diego | Office of the Attorney General – State of California | Office of the Medical Examiner – County of San Diego | Oxygen | People | San Diego Union-Tribune | Town & Country | Yelp••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I got a girl hung herself.

• 1:23Speaker 05

  Authorities say she committed suicide, distraught because of the child's accident. But her family says the evidence actually points to a murder.

• 1:31Speaker 06

  Despite the sheriff's department findings, there will always be people who believe you are a cold-blooded killer.

• 1:37Speaker 07

  She was just treated just like a piece of meat.

• 1:40Speaker 05

  They have to exclude everything else if they're going to come to a suicide. And you know what? They only met with the family two days ago, and the family offered lots of information that should be investigated. But you know what? They closed the case. It's premature, and it's a rush to judgment.

• 1:53Annie Elise?

  Spreckels Mansion is a 13,000-square-foot oceanfront property right in the city of Coronado, California, right next to San Diego. And if you were looking at photos of this 27-room mansion, a few different words might come to mind: wealth, success, prosperity, living the good life. And the truth is, you could say the same thing about the People living there. From the outside looking in, Rebecca Zahau had everything that she could ever want. She was in a very happy relationship with her boyfriend of two years, a 54-year-old pharmaceutical mogul and multi-multi-millionaire named Jonah Shakni. The two of them were in love, they were happy. She also had a very longstanding,

• 2:38Annie Elise?

  successful career as a certified ophthalmic technician, meaning somebody who works in ophthalmology for, you know, eyes, an eye doctor. And although she did have a very successful run with her career, it was a career that she was taking a break from at the time. She also had a very loving family, along with three stepchildren from Jonah's prior two marriages. Now, speaking about the finances, I mean, she was doing just fine when it came to finances. She never had to worry about where her next meal was coming from, if she was going to have a roof over her head. They were just very, very comfortable and lived a happy, comfortable life.

• 3:17Annie Elise?

  It was early in the morning on July 13, 2011. The mansion was quiet, which wasn't too unusual for that time. It was around 6:30 a.m. But what was unusual was the emptiness of the mansion. Jonah, who owned the home, was gone due to a family emergency. None of the kids were home either. And Rebecca's sister, as a matter of fact, had just flown back home the day before. So it was very quiet and very empty. Rebecca was practically all alone in this big, sprawling, 13,000-square-foot mansion, which I guess technically she wasn't all alone. Jonah's brother Adam had come into town and he was staying in the guest house, which is on the property but right behind the main house. So that morning, when

• 4:02Annie Elise?

  Adam got up, he threw on some clothes, he walked out of the guest house, and he headed to the main house to make some coffee for himself. But the morning that he originally had planned on having... would never come. As soon as he reached the courtyard, which was this landscaped area in between the guest house and the main house, he saw Rebecca. But she wasn't out watering the flowers or drinking her morning coffee and getting some fresh air. He saw her body hanging from a second floor balcony, just directly facing him. And everything that happened next was a complete blur, but Adam quickly ran inside the main house. He grabbed a kitchen knife, then ran back outside and pulled over this wooden table

• 4:47Annie Elise?

  to where Rebecca's body was hanging. His hope and his idea and goal was that maybe he could cut her down and potentially save her. Adam probably hadn't even had a chance to take into consideration how long she had potentially been there, or even consider how lifeless her body looked. So he sprung into action and he cut the rope and he laid her body on the ground below. After he got her down, he called 911 and he was begging for them to hurry and get to the house. Adam was very frantic on the phone. He was stuttering his words, forgetting his brother's address, trying to give all this information to the operator, just completely distraught and panicked.

• 5:29Annie Elise?

  He was also yelling at Rebecca's limp body, asking her if she was alive. He also tried to perform CPR, but unfortunately with no luck, it was just a mess.

• 5:41Speaker 04

  My honor, I'm just doing your reporting. Yeah, uh, I got a girl hung herself. Okay, sir, is she still alive? She was alive. Well, how did we find her? Last night. Okay, is she beyond help? I'm compressing her chest right now. Okay, hold on. What's your name? Adam Shatner. Okay, listen to me, help is coming right now.

• 6:05Annie Elise?

  Now, I think he realized the severity of the situation. He didn't need to be a first responder to know that Rebecca was gone. And once the actual first responders arrived, they confirmed that Rebecca was unfortunately beyond saving. The official documents state that the police department was the first to show up and that they tried to perform CPR. Then the fire department came and when they- They arrived, they noticed that there were signs of rigor mortis in her jaw. So they called CPR off because of that. I mean, it was clear that she was deceased and that she had been for quite some time when Adam had found her. And Rebecca was only 32 years old, still so young with so much life ahead of her.

• 6:49Annie Elise?

  But by the time anyone had found her, it was too late. Now, there is no doubt, her death was a very tragic death. But was her death actually self-inflicted? Because the more that the investigators looked into it, the more that they weren't so sure. I'm Annie Elise, this is 10 to Life, let's jump right in. Also, really quick, I just wanted to let you guys know, we have decided to do an amazing Black Friday sale where not only are we slashing all the prices of merch, and you can pick that up for yourself, for the holiday gifts, for whatever you want to do, but we also are offering the lowest membership rate ever for Patreon. So if you've been going back and forth on the fence about if you should join Patreon,

• 7:34Annie Elise?

  now would be the time because it is the lowest rate of the year. Not only offering introductory rates that are super, super low, but also a huge discount on the annual membership. And as a reminder, for what you get in Patreon, you not only get access to every single episode ad-free, but you get access to our 24/7 group chat where we are talking about every case all day long. You get access to exclusive giveaways, bonus videos, bonus episodes, behind the scenes content, all sorts of different like perks and promos. Also, there's a tier where you can talk directly with me, asking me any questions you have, asking me for a personalized video, whether it's a shout out, a piece of rice, whatever it may be.

• 8:18Annie Elise?

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• 8:56Annie Elise?

  Now, from what I've just described, you're probably putting two and two together. Rebecca had a rope around her neck and she was hanging from a balcony, which it sounds like a pretty straightforward conclusion: self-harm. But here's the thing: it was anything but straightforward, and honestly, nothing about this case is straightforward. Pretty much as soon as the police arrived at the house on that morning on Ocean Boulevard, they were very suspicious, so much so that they called in San Diego homicide detectives to come check out the scene. And here's why: Rebecca's body didn't match most of the characteristics that are typically seen in somebody who has died by doing this themselves.

• 9:40Annie Elise?

  First off, she wasn't wearing what Adam had last seen her in before heading to bed the night before. And I'm not talking about being in her pajamas, I'm talking about she wasn't wearing any clothing. She was completely naked. Now, of course, every case is different, but I will say this: most people who are planning to take their own life, they don't take their clothing off, especially women. Studies of self-inflicted deaths do show that the vast majority of people are clothed, because the act of them taking their own life, it's not about creating a scene or being an exhibitionist. That's not the purpose behind it. And for someone to know that they would eventually be found by someone, anyone, completely

• 10:22Annie Elise?

  naked, it just is not very common. Second, there was the fact that her feet were bound together at the ankles, and her hands were also bound together at the wrists, but they were bound behind her back, which I don't think that I need to even explain how strange that is, right? Or the logistics, I mean, not to be too graphic, but would you tie a rope around your neck first, then tie your feet together, and then your hands? Would it even be possible to do all of that? I don't know. Now, another thing that didn't make sense is the investigators also noted the way that her hands and feet had been tied, because they were tied by two very specific knots

• 11:06Annie Elise?

  that are commonly used in a nautical setting. They're called an overhand and a clove hitch. Knot, which I tried to look up the difficulty level of tying something like these knots. And it's a little bit hit or miss with the answers. I'll be honest. Some sites say that they are very difficult and very complex. But some say that anybody can learn them in just a few simple steps. So. I mean, it didn't really answer my question, but still very specific types of knots, not just your regular shoe kind of knot. If you're tying your shoes and feel free to chime in in the comment section. If you're familiar with either of these types of knots, I'm not because I have not spent a lot of time on boats.

• 11:45Annie Elise?

  But regardless of whether it's complicated or easy, I still can't comprehend doing it behind your own back. I would think that even trying to tie a simple knot behind your back would be difficult. But as you'll see here shortly, not everybody agrees with me on that. There are a lot of people who say that you can do it on your own. But that's not even all of the weird stuff, and I don't want to get too caught up in all of that. Because another weird thing is that Adam told the investigators that when he pulled Rebecca's body down. She had been gagged, specifically some kind of blue cloth had been stuffed inside her mouth. Now, initially I wondered if it was maybe something like a small washcloth.

• 12:27Annie Elise?

  But the court documents described it as part of a blue T-shirt. And then the rest of the shirt was wrapped around her lower face and tied behind her head. Which I think that it is a very interesting detail just by itself. But then couple that with the knots and her hands behind her back, her feet being bound. I mean, why go through with the trouble of doing any of this? But especially why shove part of a shirt inside your mouth? It's just super strange, right? At least super strange if this was a case of a woman taking her own life. Homicide, though, then it's not strange at all. Now I guess you could argue that maybe Rebecca did it so that she wouldn't yell out and wake Adam up

• 13:12Annie Elise?

  in case he then tried to come in and save her and foil the plan. But if I'm being honest, that also sounds pretty ridiculous, even just saying it out loud. This was just something that is not typically seen in these kinds of self inflicted incidents. Apparently though, after cutting her down from the balcony, Adam then decided to take the shirt out of Rebecca's mouth, trying to perform. CPR on her. So that evidence, the T-shirt evidence is what I'm referring to. It had been tampered with a little bit and messed up because Adam had touched it and removed it. Now, as if all of that isn't wild enough, there was one more thing that had the investigators

• 13:53Annie Elise?

  completely baffled. On the second floor, there was the room with the balcony where Rebecca was hanging from. And on the outside of that bedroom door, the side that would be facing the hallway, there was a very strange and ominous message. It said, quote, "She saved him. Can you save her?" Which, I mean, take a second to let that really sink in. It's literally something out of like a Criminal Minds episode. "She saved him. Can he save her?" And the message was written in black paint, in all capital letters, and there was a paintbrush with hardened black paint still on the end of it, just lying on the floor of the bedroom. Which, if Rebecca had done this to herself, that would be one hell of

• 14:37Annie Elise?

  a goodbye note and farewell note. I mean, we have heard of notes being left behind, absolutely, whether it's a handwritten note, a note on the computer, a text message, whatever it may be. But to take black paint and write this ominous message on the outside of the bedroom door, and then couple that again with all of the weird ways in which Rebecca's body was found, it's bizarre. Investigators also noted that there were multiple knives just lying on the bedroom floor, which seemed kind of weird, because there weren't any stab wounds to Rebecca's body. So it was odd that they were even there. Why would you just have knives scattered around the bedroom? So all that to say, something, or really

• 15:22Annie Elise?

  multiple things, were just off from the jump in this case. This didn't really look like somebody who took their own life. And yet, there were still so many clues to be discovered inside the house that would say the complete opposite. A whole investigation ensued, and one main question remained.

• 15:41Annie Elise?

  Becca done this to herself? Or had someone killed her and then tried to make her death look like an accident? Look self inflicted? So like with any investigation, the detectives started to look into a few different things in Rebecca's life. Her backstory, her relationships, what was going on in her life at the time of her death? All those kinds of things, all of, you know, the main things that you would look to for answers. Rebecca was a Burmese-American immigrant and she was born in Myanmar and had lived in a few different countries, but she had been living in the US for around a decade at the time of her death. And she was someone who was described as being kind and just having a very warm personality. Family also was just everything to her.

• 16:26Annie Elise?

  She also had a pretty great work ethic too. I mean, you would have to, to really support that kind of lifestyle and pay the bills, but there was more to it than that. Even at 32 years old, she wanted to be able to take care of her parents financially. She wanted to just have that ownership and that proudness of doing so. She and her older sister, Mary, had agreed that they would both pitch in, that they would both help out when it came to their parents' bills. And Rebecca was very appreciative of her parents and appreciative of everything that they had done for her growing up. So it was really important to her that her parents never struggled, especially after coming to America. And everyone in her family agreed that Rebecca was pretty much the glue of the family. And I think that that can really say a lot about a person.

• 17:11Annie Elise?

  Now Rebecca was living and working in Arizona when she first met Jonah back in 2009. Her career was always something that she was very, very passionate about, as I mentioned. But after meeting Jonah and things getting pretty serious pretty quickly, she quit her job in order to spend more time with him and with his kids. Now you see, as I mentioned earlier, Jonah was Loaded. For reference, he was the CEO of a pharmaceutical company that ended up selling in 2012 for a lot of money. Some sources said $2.6 billion and some said $2.8 billion. But either way, at least $2.5 billion.

• 17:51Annie Elise?

  And he primarily lived in Arizona, but he had this second home slash vacation home in Coronado. He and his second wife had bought it, hoping to beat the Arizona summer heat by being on the West Coast and, you know, right there on the water, getting the perfect ocean breeze coming in. And so they would travel back and forth. They had been going back and forth between buying a house a little further north or there, but they ended up choosing Coronado because, according to them, quote, "Nothing bad could ever happen in Coronado." But unfortunately, not one, but two unimaginable tragedies would unfold not long after buying that mansion.

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• 19:12Annie Elise?

  To understand Rebecca's death, you really have to backtrack a little bit because there was an equally traumatic event for the family just days before she was found. When Rebecca and Jonah first met, they really hit it off, as I mentioned. Jonah had recently gone through a divorce with his second wife, and Rebecca was in the middle of a divorce as well. They had already separated, but they were still legally married. So needless to say, they both had these previous relationships, divorces, and similar experiences that the two of them bonded over. But when Jonah and his kids packed up for the summer to then go be in California in the Coronado Mansion, Rebecca was all alone back in Arizona.

• 19:55Annie Elise?

  And it was okay for a while, but eventually it got old. Being that far away from each other for long periods of time during the year, just it wasn't something that either one of them wanted to do any longer. So, in December of 2010, Rebecca moved in with Jonah. And she was very excited for this new chapter of her life and to experience it with Jonah and his family. And Jonah had three kids. His oldest two were from his first marriage, and they were teenagers by the time Jonah and Rebecca got together. But for whatever reason, they were kind of put off by Rebecca. One source said that they resented her, which certainly is possible. I think that those are very important years when you're a teenager and feeling like a

• 20:37Annie Elise?

  woman or even a man is stepping in to replace your parent can be jarring and it can lead to resentment, absolutely. I think that it can be very difficult to navigate, and I think it's pretty common. I mean, maybe they didn't like that their dad was with someone else, or maybe they didn't like that Rebecca was living with them. I don't really know. I can't speak for them. But either way, they just weren't that close with her. And it was something that really bothered Rebecca. Rebecca had even confided in her sister at one point that she was considering breaking up with Jonah. Or, at the very least, taking a break from their relationship. And this was all because of how awkward and bad things became between her and his two oldest kids.

• 21:18Annie Elise?

  Now, her sister wasn't sure if this was something that Rebecca maybe ever actually laid out on the table for Jonah, or if maybe she was just venting, and this was just something that she was saying to her in the heat of the moment, just ranting and venting, not really meaning what she was saying. But either way, it was apparent that the rocky relationship between Rebecca and the oldest kids was something that had become pretty hard to manage. Rebecca really cared about Jonah, so of course she wanted his two oldest kids to like her. I mean, that's a huge make or break kind of thing in a relationship, and she didn't know how to navigate it. Now, her relationship with Jonah's youngest, Max, that one was different. Max was much younger, only four years old when Rebecca and Jonah got together.

• 22:03Annie Elise?

  And Max really liked Rebecca a lot. She cooked for him, she read him books. She played with him. And at that age, I don't think that they really care as much as long as you're willing to just kind of get your hands dirty, play with them, give them constant attention and love and laughter and happiness. And they really got along well, so much so that Rebecca and Max even got into a routine where Max didn't want his dad to fix him breakfast or take him to soccer practice. He wanted Rebecca to do it, and she loved doing it. So the two of them were extremely close. And I'm sure that Rebecca even saw him as her own in a way, which was why what I'm about to get to next was extremely hard and a huge point of contention in this entire case.

• 22:47Annie Elise?

  Because on Monday, July 11th, 2011, tragedy struck. Since it was summertime, Jonah, his three kids and Rebecca, and even Rebecca's little sister who had come into town, were all in Coronado for the summer. And that day in particular, Jonah's oldest two kids actually had flights back to the East Coast so that they could be with their mom. So it was going to be Jonah, Max, Rebecca, and Rebecca's younger sister. So Jonah dropped them off at the airport, then he went to the gym afterwards to squeeze a workout in. The gym was only a few blocks away from the house. And Rebecca was with Max, which remember Rebecca spent plenty of time alone with Max. So this wasn't unusual or out of the ordinary or anything, you know, bizarre.

• 23:31Annie Elise?

  So that left Rebecca, her little sister, 13-year-old Xena, and Max together at the house. Now during his workout, Jonah felt his phone vibrating, and he saw that Rebecca was trying to get a hold of him. But when he answered the phone, he couldn't even make out what she was saying. She was hysterical. Her words were jumbling together between actual words and screams. And he had no idea what she was saying, but he knew that something was wrong. So he rushed home as fast as he could, only to be greeted by an ambulance in front of the house. And this ambulance was loading his then-six-year-old son Max into the back of it. It was awful. And Rebecca had explained that she had been in one of the bathrooms.

• 24:14Annie Elise?

  Downstairs and Xena was taking a shower in another upstairs bathroom. Max was playing upstairs on his own during this time. And while she was in the middle of using the bathroom, Rebecca had heard something very loud. And at first, she thought that maybe it was just something dropping on the floor, like a lamp or a vase. She even considered that maybe it was their dog barking in the distance. I mean, remember, this was a huge house. But when she got out of the bathroom, she saw that it was something so much worse than that. Max was lying right there in the middle of the foyer next to the staircase. And he was really badly injured. It looked like he had possibly been in the middle of playing when just tragedy erupted.

• 24:59Annie Elise?

  There were a few soccer balls next to him because remember soccer was his favorite sport. And then he also had his scooter just lying there on his leg. So maybe he had been trying to perform some sort of stunt? I don't know. I mean, you know how kids can be like, oh, I'm gonna try and kick the ball while spinning on my scooter and jumping or something like that. Maybe he was trying to do both. I don't really know. But there was also a chandelier on the floor next to him. And it was shattered, just completely broken into thousands of tiny pieces. Which based on everything at the scene, it seemed like maybe Max had fallen over the staircase railing that was above. Maybe while he was riding his scooter and then he landed on the floor below.

• 25:41Annie Elise?

  And I say seemed because there's actually a lot more that goes into this, but for right now, I kind of just want to stick a pin in all of that. And all you need to know is that Max had a really bad accident while under the care of Rebecca. Rebecca said that by the time that she found him, Max was conscious, but barely. All he was able to say was the word ocean, which was the name of the family dog. By the time the paramedics arrived, he was no longer breathing and he didn't have a pulse. Luckily, they were able to get his heart going again and he was taken to the hospital where he then was put into a medically induced coma. And even though he was luckily still alive, he was in really bad shape. Max's mom, Dina, and Dina's sister.

• 26:24Annie Elise?

  Nina flew in immediately to be with him. And Jonah's brother Adam also came into town as soon as he heard the news. I mean, it was definitely an all hands on deck type of situation. And everybody, of course, wanted to be there emotionally as support for Jonah and Dina while they waited to see if Max would recover. The situation was devastating for everyone involved. Nobody ever wants to see a child that they love hurt or in the hospital, let alone in a coma with a prognosis that still is up in the air. Now, as for Rebecca, it seemed like she was doing her best to handle things, to get through this. I mean, she was the one who was supposed to be watching Max when all of this happened, when he had this horrible accident.

• 27:08Annie Elise?

  So she was trying to be there for everyone in Max's family, while also trying to navigate giving them space when they needed it. It was a very difficult decision to navigate, but she was trying her best. And I will say, her exact demeanor during this time, it really depends on who you ask. Because Dina's sister and Max's aunt Nina said that she felt like Rebecca was acting weird. Apparently Rebecca had been the one to pick up Nina from the airport, and Nina had only met Rebecca once or twice at this point. But she said that Rebecca greeted her with a really big hug and that she told her that she was so glad that she was here. Which, I have to say, kind of feels normal to me, especially in a very emotionally enhanced moment.

• 27:52Annie Elise?

  But she recalls that when she was trying to get to more details on what happened to Max and where exactly Max fell from, Rebecca told her twice that he had fallen from the bedroom. Which Nina didn't really understand. How do you fall from a bedroom, right? Now, as for Adam, Adam said that to him Rebecca just seemed quiet and a bit withdrawn. Which whether or not you think that these reactions are weird or not, might just vary person to person, totally open to interpretation. But some of them saying she felt a little off, what she was saying wasn't making sense. No, she just seemed like she was extra Quiet, giving space, it really could go either way. But then, there was a very big change.

• 28:35Annie Elise?

  The doctors had been monitoring Max ever since the accident, and they had been working on a possible treatment plan. But sometime either in the late evening hours of the 12th, or the very early morning hours of the 13th, there was some very difficult news. Dina and Jonah had been told by the medical professionals at the hospital that there really wasn't anything else that they could do for Max. His injuries were just too bad. So, heartbroken, Jonah called Rebecca to talk to her and tell her the news. But like I said, it was pretty late at night or early morning hours, middle of the night, so Rebecca didn't answer her phone. And, to be fair, maybe she was already asleep. But all to say, it was at 12:30 a.m. on the 13th

• 29:20Annie Elise?

  when Jonah left a voicemail quickly explaining to Rebecca that Max was not going to make it. And Rebecca's phone records showed that she listened to this voicemail for approximately two minutes at 12:50 a.m. Now, at this point, this was just two hours before Rebecca's estimated time of death. Which, just to reference the timeline here, Max's accident was on the 11th. The voicemail was left technically on the 13th, which was also just hours before Rebecca's time of death, and ultimately, when her body was found by Adam, the brother. Adam even said on the 911 call when he found Rebecca's body,

• 30:02Annie Elise?

  quote, "It's the same place that you got the kid yesterday." Because he was trying to describe where Rebecca was. And obviously, he had gotten his days a little bit mixed up. It had been technically two days prior, but still. Now, right off the bat, when considering the events that were happening in Rebecca's life, there were two questions that came to my mind. Could she have ended her life because she felt so awful about what had happened to Max while in her care? Or, could someone have killed her, angry that Max had gotten hurt while on her watch? Now, like I said, the investigators already had their suspicions. But Jonah? He didn't really seem to share them.

• 30:45Annie Elise?

  And that's not to say he wasn't devastated, but he handled it in a way where it seemed like it almost made sense to him. A couple of investigators went to the hospital where Max was because they wanted to interview Jonah on the day that Rebecca's body was discovered. And what he said to them was pretty interesting. He seemed upset, but not totally shocked by it. He even told the detectives interviewing him that coming from her Asian background and household, Rebecca looked at things differently when it came to taking responsibility for things, whatever that means. But basically, he kind of chalked it up as her taking her own life to fully take responsibility for Max's accident.

• 31:27Annie Elise?

  Now, to be as fair as possible and play devil's advocate a little bit here, I have no idea if Jonah was clued in on all of the other weird things that they had found in the house at that point. The painted note, the knives, all of those things. I mean, he was pretty preoccupied with his son, and he had been at the hospital from the minute that he got the call that Max was hurt. So maybe he was spared all of the gory details about the creepy messages on the walls and her hands and feet being tied up, the t-shirt around her face. I don't really know. But either way, I do think that it's worth noting where his head was at. Because on the other side of things, there was Rebecca's family, and they were all extremely shocked by her death.

• 32:09Annie Elise?

  Jonah was putting things in the context of Rebecca's Asian heritage, which her family members surely would understand that if that was true, right? But to them, none of that made any sense. Of course, she was close to Max, and of course, she would have felt horrible. But to take her own life? It seemed like a pretty big stretch to her family. They also brought up a few different points and a few different arguments. For one, Rebecca was what they described as being, quote, "a health nut." She was extremely fit. She was always watching what she ate, and she was always working out. And her sister said that a lot of the times, she wouldn't even splurge on a glass of wine at dinner because she thought that it was a waste of calories.

• 32:53Annie Elise?

  She was just always watching what she put in her body. She'd rather be drinking a protein shake. So their thought process was that for someone to care- So much about wellness, their body, their health. It was weird for her to then end her own life. Which sure, I do get that to a degree. But more importantly, they also argue that she had never had any mental health issues and she had never showed any signs of ever even considering taking her own life. Rebecca's sister Mary also said that she talked to Rebecca the night before her death and that while she was of course not her happiest self due to everything that was going on with Max, she was nowhere near about to take her own life. She even told Mary that she was planning to take Jonah some things the following morning

• 33:38Annie Elise?

  and that she was going to call their mom on the way to the hospital. She was making plans for the following day, which Mary considered those to be plans for the future. And she said she didn't feel like Rebecca would have even bothered saying all of those things if she knew that she was going to take her own life. And I think that all of those arguments are complex, if I'm going to be fair, and I don't want to invalidate how her family feels. However, as we know and have seen, sometimes that's just how it is in cases of people taking their own lives. They don't want people to worry, they don't want them to know what's going on, or it's a decision that they don't even know what they're planning until the very moment that they decide to execute this plan. And I'm not saying that that's the case with Rebecca, certainly not, but it does get a

• 34:23Annie Elise?

  little bit tricky when you're talking about all of this. Because self-harm is a very unpredictable thing. Now, it wasn't just Rebecca's family who spoke up in her defense, not at all. Apparently, even her ex-husband spoke up and said that this was definitely out of character for her, and he just didn't really believe it himself.

• 34:42Speaker 07

  You still are firmly of the opinion that your sister did not harm herself. Can you tell us what your thoughts are?

• 34:49Speaker 07

  Yes, I believe that my sister did not commit a suicide. My sister, pardon? Do you have a theory about what did happen? I believe that my sister was murdered. And have you talked to your sister recently or prior to this event? Had there been a conversation with her? And did she ever, did she sound depressed? Did she ever have depression? Has she ever been prone to self-harm? Can you give us those sorts of details?

• 35:15Speaker 07

  My sister...

• 35:17Annie Elise?

  Never had a psychiatric problem, never been on psychiatric medications, and never have attempted suicide, let alone talk about harming herself. Now, none of this was factual proof or evidence against the theory of Rebecca taking her own life. But it was interesting to at least note. And that's not even considering everything that was inside that house. This was all just purely based on people knowing Rebecca on a personal level. Which while we're on the topic of the house, I do want to go over some things. I described the crime scene earlier and some of the weirder things that were found in the house. But I also have to share some of the things that began to make the investigators wonder if they had this entire thing wrong.

• 36:04Annie Elise?

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• 36:43Annie Elise?

  Maybe Rebecca's death was a straightforward case of being self-inflicted after all. I mean, the second-story bedroom that Rebecca was found hanging from wasn't really one of significance. It was a smaller room and didn't really get much use. You could also kind of call it a guest bedroom. And maybe that's what it actually was, but in a house that big with an entire guest house on the property, I don't know if it was ever actually used, which is beside the point, but just trying to explain the layout and the different rooms. But one of the balcony doors was open. One of the doors was still shut. And the red rope that was found around Rebecca's neck was attached to one of the legs of the bed, as well as the bed frame. So she was hanging from the balcony area,

• 37:28Annie Elise?

  but the rope itself wasn't actually attached to the balcony railings or anywhere on the balcony. On the balcony itself... was just a lot of dirt and grime and not in some weird way like somebody had shoveled piles of dirt onto it just typical dirt and buildup from a summer vacation house that is only used once a year in a bedroom that was likely never used but it didn't really make much sense and regardless of the reason for the dirt and the grime or whatever it is it did help paint an interesting picture because there were two bare footprints inside this dirt and grime the prints started at the balcony door standing together in kind of like a V formation and then they made

• 38:11Annie Elise?

  their way right over to the balcony railing and like I mentioned before Rebecca was completely naked when she was found which included her feet she didn't have any socks on or any shoes so these bare footprints matched up and were concluded to be hers the only other print in the dirt was a singular boot print however this was accurately matched with one of the responding officers boot prints and it was likely that they had taken a step out onto the balcony then realized that they were adding prints to a potential crime scene and then stepped back inside but this was a really huge piece of evidence and it made the investigators think that maybe Rebecca had done this to herself after all I mean wouldn't there have been evidence of

• 38:56Annie Elise?

  somebody else being up on that balcony with her if not it would be different if there were dirty footprints on a stark white totally clean balcony floor because in that case you could argue that maybe somebody else left footprints and then just simply wiped them up making it look like Rebecca's prints were the only ones there but that's not what we were seeing and you really can't add more dirt onto the balcony floor to conceal your own footprints or at least I personally wouldn't think that that would be possible there would be wipe marks in the dirt it would be very easy to tell what had happened in that spot it just did not make sense but it wasn't just the absence of any other footprints that made the investigators start to ditch the homicide theory

• 39:38Annie Elise?

  They also claimed that they couldn't find any other DNA in the bedroom besides Rebecca's. So they really started to switch gears when it came to their theories as to what really had happened here. And then, a few months later, when Rebecca's autopsy came back, it only supported this new theory of her actually taking her own life. First, the autopsy report noted that there was an atypical mark on her neck that was consistent with a rope being tied around it. Then, in her neck, there were multiple areas of broken bone, specifically around her throat and voice box. And these kinds of injuries are pretty consistent with the strong force that would have taken place and that would have been applied to the neck

• 40:21Annie Elise?

  if she had, say, jumped from the balcony with that rope attached around her neck. The drop from the balcony was around nine feet, so there definitely would have been some force behind that kind of fall. Now, one thing that the investigators had initially noted when they called in the homicide unit was that Rebecca had some superficial abrasions on her back and her legs. The autopsy report wrote that these abrasions were consistent with the plants that were under the balcony. And I think, based on everything that I'm saying, you can probably guess what the autopsy report concluded. The official cause of death was listed as hanging, and the manner of death was listed as self-inflicted. They even wrote in an explanation as to why they came to that conclusion.

• 41:06Annie Elise?

  "The circumstances of this death are unusual and were initially considered suspicious. However, unusual circumstances do not automatically make a death a homicide. And homicides and self-inflicted deaths can often have similar features. Most people that take their own life do not leave a note, and many people do not have a history of documented depression. Self-inflicted hangings in which bindings are used are rare, but well-described. And it was demonstrated in this case that the descendant could have set up the bindings by herself. Despite no history of depression, the descendant was found in the morning after she apparently learned that her boyfriend's son, who was under her care when his fall occurred two days prior,

• 41:51Annie Elise?

  would likely not survive." Now, that last bit is very important, because Max unfortunately hadn't survived. He had actually passed away from his injuries just a few days after Rebecca's Body was found, meaning she hadn't lived long enough to know what would happen. But it also was one of those cases where as soon as Max was in the hospital, all of the doctors knew based on his injuries and statistics that the probability of him actually surviving were low. But again, it begs the question, was Rebecca feeling so guilty about Max's accident and prematurely grieving his death that she felt like the only thing that could really make it okay or make it even was by taking her own life?

• 42:36Annie Elise?

  Rebecca's family and their attorneys still didn't think so. The autopsy report seemed to have a reason for everything, though, even down to the bindings on her hands and feet. But the one thing that nobody could really explain was that cryptic message that was left on the bedroom door. Remember, it said, "She saved him. Can you save her?" And I'm just kind of going off the top of my head here, but two things come to mind when I'm trying to convince myself that Rebecca actually wrote this and then took her own life. Number one, who are we talking about here? I mean, I thought that maybe the she is Rebecca and the him is Max, but to be fair, she hadn't really saved him.

• 43:18Annie Elise?

  She found him, sure, but everyone knew that he wasn't going to make it. It was only a matter of time until he actually passed. And then I gotta wonder, even if this message did make some sort of sense, why wouldn't Rebecca write it in the first person, assuming that she is still referring to herself? You know, "I saved him, but can you save me?" But then, if she's taking her own life, she's likely not looking to be saved at all. So she wouldn't even ask that question, like, "Can you save her? Can you save me?" It doesn't make sense. And I just really have a hard time with this particular part of this case. I know I didn't personally know Rebecca, but writing on a bedroom door in paint just

• 44:01Annie Elise?

  before taking your own life, it just seems like the most out-there, cinematic, ominous thing. If someone really is so overcome with guilt and with grief... I highly doubt that they're thinking about making this the most dramatic note left behind ever. Going and picking up a bucket of black paint and a paintbrush. Where you're gonna place this? Why wouldn't you just, if you're grieving and you're just like so distraught, you can't go on? And you're going to leave a note behind? Wouldn't you just scribble it on a, on a piece of paper or something? I don't know. It's just so, so strange. The police department also noted that Rebecca's DNA was the only DNA on both the rope and the knives that were used to cut the rope.

• 44:46Annie Elise?

  They also noted that they found black paint on Rebecca's hands and on the rope as well. But despite all of this, a lot of people still felt like the investigator's findings were wrong. And I mean, the reason that this case even blew up the way that it did is because so many people just could not get behind the idea that Rebecca's death was self-inflicted. Very similar to Ellen Greenberg, which we talked about not too long ago. It just does not make sense. And if you aren't familiar with that case, just do a quick search of her name and my name on whatever podcast app you're listening on or on YouTube and you can get fully caught up. That case is another one that is so bizarre. And the truth was, there was more to it than just Rebecca's death in all of this.

• 45:31Annie Elise?

  Max's mom, Dina, was understandably really heartbroken by Max's death. Of course she was. He was her only child and she loved him more than anything in the world. But what was almost as overwhelming as her grief was this sense of confusion. From the minute that she got the call about Max's accident, she had been very confused. Because Max wasn't really much of a daredevil. I mean, really, she felt like he was almost skittish about things. She had never seen him playing near a staircase before. She had never seen him doing stunts or tricks. And remember, she had lived in this house before splitting up with Jonah. So she just could not make sense of what he was doing up there, or what had even happened, or how it had happened.

• 46:15Annie Elise?

  When Max was taken to the hospital, there were also conflicting results as far as what the doctors thought was wrong with him and what had led to his fall. At first, the doctors were saying that he might have had a heart attack, which, this was shocking because he was six years old and healthy. But then, it went from, okay, maybe he had a heart attack, to Deana and Jonah needing to be tested for long GT syndrome, which that's a hereditary heart condition that causes random seizures. So it was kind of weird that they were considering all of these different things that suggested that something had actually happened to him to cause this fall, rather than, you know, a healthy little kid goofing off or playing and having a freak accident.

• 46:59Annie Elise?

  But the heart attack theory quickly got dismissed, and neither Deana nor Jonah had long QT syndrome. And then there's also what one of the physicians at the hospital also threw out to them a couple of days before Max ultimately passed. The doctor told them that there was a possibility that Max had been suffocated. The doctor, Dr. Brad Pedersen, noted that Max's injuries just didn't align with everything that they had been told had happened, and this was in his medical opinion. He felt like Max had been suffocated. Then he had sustained injuries from a fall. And ever since hearing that, Deana just had felt in her gut that Max hadn't just fallen over the railing. And I say "Deana" because I don't know if this is something

• 47:44Annie Elise?

  that she and Jonah ever really fully agreed on. They had very different responses to the whole case, and she made that very known from the jump. Well, he has elected not to be part of the investigation. I have provided to him the reports. He has them. I have not gotten a response. But that's something that probably would be better answered by him, by Jonah. Why do you suppose that the father of the child, the boyfriend of the woman who hangs herself at his home, why do you think that he has just kept himself completely out of all of this? I don't know. I don't know, and if Max were here, I wouldn't know how to explain it to him. I don't know. Now I say all of this because Deana was really adamant, in her public life and in the media, that someone had hurt Max,

• 48:29Annie Elise?

  and then had thrown him over the railing to make it look like a freak accident. And at first, like in the very beginning days after Max's death, there was speculation that maybe Deana thought that Rebecca had been the one to harm Max. However, she has since come out and said that she actually does not blame Rebecca for his death, not at all, and she thinks that somebody else came into the house at separate... ...times and killed both Max and Rebecca. Which I know, kind of wild, but stay with me on this. In an effort to prove that Max's death hadn't been an accident, Dina actually brought in a lot of different people to do their own investigation. And the findings are pretty insane.

• 49:13Annie Elise?

  Forensic pathologist Dr. Judy Melanick was one of these people. And her findings were that she felt that Max's death classification was inaccurate. She felt that his injuries weren't at all consistent with a fall. Her theory is that Max was attacked by someone while in the upstairs hallway. And that whoever had attacked him had beaten his face and beaten his shoulder area, while then pushing him further and further back until he was up against the railing. Which then caused some very weird patterned injuries on his back that, up until that point, had never been explained. She believes that he was then lifted over the banister and thrown onto the ground below, where he ultimately landed on top of his head.

• 49:58Annie Elise?

  And Dina was extremely persistent with bringing all of these findings to the investigators. And they kind of basically, after hearing that, just shoved her aside every single time. They didn't feel like this was even a valid possibility to look into. They just saw her as a distraught mom who was grieving and ultimately in denial about her son's death. Then, after Rebecca's autopsy report came back, the investigators were really standing behind their theories on both Rebecca and Max's deaths. And on September 2nd, 2011, seven weeks after Rebecca and Max's deaths, the San Diego Sheriff's Department held a media briefing to go over their findings.

• 50:40Annie Elise?

  And they basically argued why they wouldn't be investigating either of the cases any further. They claimed that Max's death was an unfortunate accident. And they theorized that he had likely been riding on his scooter in the upstairs hallway, and that he had somehow tripped and fell over the railing, hitting the chandelier and bringing both it and his scooter down with him. So basically, they stuck with what they had believed all along. Then, they claimed that they believed that Rebecca had taken her own life, and that she had done everything to herself in that. The bindings, the gag, the shirt, everything. They even had an entire presentation ready to prove their point. They even played a video of a woman around Rebecca's size, tying the knots around her hands, then slipping them off,

• 51:25Annie Elise?

  then putting them back around her hands behind her back. But again, just because she could have done it, it doesn't mean that she knew how to do it. Someone even said that at the conference, and the police department kinda just said like, "Well, yeah, well, we will never know how she learned to do it. It's all still a mystery." Now, as for the gag, they believed that she did that herself before tying her hands. But of course, people were like, "Okay, well, what about the message on the door? Any explanation for that?" Well, they had an answer for that too. And I don't know if I could really even call it an explanation, but it was an answer. They said that they couldn't do a handwriting analysis because it was done in block writing.

• 52:08Annie Elise?

  Remember, it was written in all capital letters. So, because they couldn't do a proper analysis on it and match it to her handwriting, they just considered it to be a goodbye note. And then, to back their theory, they had someone who was Rebecca's exact height demonstrate how, where on a door they would write this, based on their height, and that it matched up with where the writing was on Rebecca's door. Which, none of this felt like actual evidence to Rebecca's family and to a lot of people following this case. Police provided compelling evidence that, well, allegedly, seemingly compelling evidence,

• 52:44Speaker 05

  that this was a suicide. What evidence are you disputing?

• 52:50Speaker 05

  Well, starting with that there's never been a suicide like this in history, of a woman naked, binding her own hands behind her back and her feet, and throwing herself over a balcony, never. I'm sure, as you know, there's a few with men. They're few and far between, and those were cases where people tried it before, and then bound themselves so they couldn't save themselves. So, starting with the fact that it's a complete anomalous... To conclude it's a suicide when there's no evidence indeed that it is, I think is erroneous. But additionally, they didn't check prints of certain very close people to Becky at all. There's mixed DNA at the scene. That note that's on the wall on the door is not a suicide note, and it's not in her handwriting. That's what her family said.

• 53:31Speaker 05

  Also, there's no forensic psychiatrist that's been consulted in any way, no human factors, experts in forensics, criminologists. And what they recreated, you saw in the press conference, was simply what someone in the Cirque du Soleil could do, a contortionist. And the fact of the matter is, they didn't do one that would be reflective of an alternative theory, i.e. a homicide or assisted suicide. And there are many other issues. She was religious. She thought she would go to hell if she committed suicide. She was not depressed. She was doing well. She wasn't even blaming herself for Maxie's death. They had to exclude everything else if they're going to come to a suicide. And you know what? They only met with the family two days ago, and the family offered lots of information that should be investigated. But you know what? They closed the case. It's premature, and it's a rush to judgment.

• 54:14Annie Elise?

  And the investigators didn't stop there. They were even kind of like, here, we also cleared anyone who would have had any reason to kill Rebecca, just to prove that they had really gone down every potential avenue and hadn't been just super quick to close the case. Both Deanna, who remember is Max's mom, and Jonah ended up being cleared because there was security camera footage that proved that they were at the hospital with Max. Rebecca's ex-husband was also cleared by security camera footage, which showed that he was at a gym all the way back in Arizona at the time of her death. So with all of them ruled out, that really only left one other potential person who could have done this: Jonah's brother, Adam.

• 54:58Annie Elise?

  Adam was Jonah's younger brother. And remember, he's the one who found Rebecca's body and called 911. And his story went like this. He had flown into town from Tennessee on Tuesday, July 12. So the day after Max's accident. And he did this just to be closer with his brother, to be there for him as they're figuring out what's going on with Max. On the evening of the 12th, Adam, Jonah, and Rebecca all grabbed dinner together before Jonah went back to the hospital to be with Dina and be with Max. And Adam claimed that Rebecca was pretty quiet that night. Remember, he even said that she was a little bit depressed, which wouldn't have been too out of the ordinary, given the circumstances. He said that she kind of just picked at her food, she didn't really seem very hungry.

• 55:43Annie Elise?

  But again, I doubt any of them really had much of an appetite, given the circumstances. So then, it was only Adam and Rebecca that went back to the house. But Adam decided to stay in the guest house, trying to give Rebecca some privacy. He claimed that they had a pretty decent conversation before he went to the guest house and was heading off to bed, and that was that. He told her that he knew a thing or two about grief, and that he had gone through all of the complicated emotions when his mom died. He even told her that if she ever needed someone to talk to, he was there for her. And he said that this whole conversation was around 8:00 PM. Then, he told her goodnight, he went to the guest house, and he called his girlfriend to check in with her and to update her on the situation.

• 56:26Annie Elise?

  After that, he took an Ambien, a sleeping pill, and he went right to sleep. Then, as we know, it was first thing the next morning when he found Rebecca hanging there. Now, here's the one difference between Adam's alibi and everybody else's alibi. Everyone else had actual security camera footage to back up their stories. Adam just had his word, and his word alone. Now, I did wonder if there were any security cameras on the property, but apparently there weren't. Which you would think with a house that big, security cameras would be like a must-have, but I guess not. So the point is, all Adam had was his word. And that's not always good enough.

• 57:09Annie Elise?

  So in an effort to prove that Adam wasn't involved, and that Rebecca had taken her own life, the police department took a DNA sample from Adam, and they also had him perform a polygraph test. Now here's the interesting thing about that. His test results actually came back as inconclusive. So really, it hadn't cleared him. However, the police department decided just to call it a day and let him fly back to Tennessee anyway. Because remember, their minds were made up. Rebecca had done this to herself. And the polygraph test really was just to kind of get the media and the public off their backs. And when it came back as inconclusive, they were kind of just like, "Oh, well, we tried", you know? And as we know, pollys are inadmissible in court anyway.

• 57:52Annie Elise?

  But this still wasn't good enough for anyone, especially not for Rebecca's family. And as the years went on, they created their own theory. They never believed that Rebecca had taken her own life. Not for a single second, they never believed it. And they felt like Max's family was angry that Rebecca had allowed Max to get hurt while on her watch, and that because of that, they wanted her dead. So they actually filed a wrongful death lawsuit. They filed this against both Adam and Max's mom, Dina. And this lawsuit claimed that the two of them conspired together to kill Rebecca. Now Jonah's name, for whatever reason, was not mentioned in this lawsuit.

• 58:34Annie Elise?

  It was just the two of them that they allege colluded together. However, this specific lawsuit, it didn't last very long. Because remember, there was video footage proving that Dina was at the hospital with Jonah and Max. Plus, there was no evidence of Dina and Adam having some sort of back and forth about any of it, or being angry together and wanting to get revenge. Dina just wanted to be at the hospital with her baby in his final moments. And actually, since she was dismissed from the suit, she has come out and said that she doesn't blame Rebecca's family for thinking that she was somehow involved in Rebecca's death. Remember, in the very beginning, she had blamed Rebecca for Max's death. So really, she and Rebecca's family, they were a lot more alike than not.

• 59:19Annie Elise?

  They both were people who felt like their loved ones were killed, and they just were desperate for answers. Dina has actually tried to team up with Rebecca's family to get them more answers. But apparently, they were pretty reluctant, and they didn't really like the idea of that. However, none of that got Adam off the hook. And as time went on, Rebecca's family became more and more convinced that he had been responsible for Rebecca's death. And they felt this way for a lot of reasons. First, he really didn't have an alibi, like I mentioned earlier. There was no proof that he had ever gone into that separate guest house at all. And then there was also the polygraph test that came back with inconclusive results.

• 1:00:00Annie Elise?

  And so Rebecca's family believes that when Adam and Rebecca returned to the house that night and got home after eating dinner with Jonah, that the two of them got into an argument, and that this argument was likely about Max's fall. They then believe that Adam sexually assaulted Rebecca and killed her, setting up the scene to make it look like it was self-inflicted. Now, one thing that was very important to note for all of this is that, for years, Adam had worked on the Mississippi River as a tugboat pilot. AKA, his job was very, very nautical. He would have likely known how to tie all of those intricate nautical knots, and that was a huge detail that Rebecca's family really clung to.

• 1:00:44Annie Elise?

  And they didn't just believe this theory and then move on with their lives, they fought for justice, as any family would do if their loved one's death was suspicious. So, they moved forward with the wrongful death suit, this time only naming Adam as the one responsible for her death. Now, it was quite a few years until things actually made it to the court, but in 2018, the suit finally made it to trial. The attorneys for Rebecca's family presented all of the evidence that they felt that they had against Adam. And in the end, the jurors voted nine to three that Adam was in fact responsible for Rebecca's death. And he was ordered to pay Rebecca's mom $5.2 million in damages.

• 1:01:29Annie Elise?

  It was seven years in the making, and it was just a civil suit, but still, it felt like Rebecca was at least getting some sort of justice. Except that Adam maintained that he had nothing to do with her death. Let me just say this about, you know, I've been living with... You know, horrible, false accusations. And yeah, they bothered me, but I'll say this. The people I come in contact with, be it friends, coworkers, acquaintances, strangers, uh, it's very gratifying to know that I've never come across one who thought for a second that I had anything to do with it. And yeah, it bothers me, but it doesn't bother anybody else because they know me and they see me for what I am.

• 1:02:09Speaker 06

  Did you kill Rebecca Zahau?

• 1:02:12Annie Elise?

  That is a crazy, cra- the answer is no. The answer is heck no.

• 1:02:17Speaker 06

  Despite the sheriff's department findings, there will always be people who believe you are a cold-blooded killer. How does that sit with you?

• 1:02:25Annie Elise?

  It does not sit well if somebody thought that about you. You didn't do anything to Rebecca Zahau, did you? I didn't do anything to Rebecca Zahau. That's how I feel, you know? If someone accused you of it, uh, that's how it feels. It's exactly how it feels. Now, I understand the difference between civil suits and criminal cases. I think most of us do. However, you would think that by winning a wrongful death suit, that that would mean that you had some pretty solid evidence to work with in a criminal case, right? Well, a few months after Rebecca's family won the civil suit, in April of 2018, the San Diego Sheriff's Department announced that they would not be reopening Rebecca's case and that they would not be changing the findings in Rebecca's case.

• 1:03:10Annie Elise?

  It would remain self-inflicted, and there would be no homicide investigation at all, which, pretty frustrating, right? Now, as for Max's death, the investigators really didn't even talk about it or bring it up after that press conference in 2011. It was an accident, and they weren't seeing it any other way. Yet I do want to say that to this day, Max's mom, Deana, still believes that something nefarious happened inside the mansion that night, the night of Max's accident. And she also believes that whoever killed Max came back to finish the job and killed Rebecca. It's also important to note that she doesn't personally believe that Adam had anything to do with it, but rather that it was a random third-party person that has never even been

• 1:03:55Annie Elise?

  considered at all in any of this. Now, maybe this perpetrator thought that Rebecca saw something that day or knew something that she wasn't supposed to, so they killed her as well to clear off an eyewitness? Who knows? Now, Adam wanted to file an appeal on his case on the civil suit, but before he could, his insurance company decided on a settlement outside of court with Rebecca's family. And he described this whole thing as being almost behind his back, and he seemed super shocked by it, especially since it wasn't what he wanted to do. But ultimately, his civil case was dismissed with prejudice. Good that the judgment was vacated.

• 1:04:35Annie Elise?

  At the same time, I would have rather have gone through the process of the appeal. Jonah has been pretty quiet since all of this. He remarried for a third time, and it's not exactly clear when, but he has seemingly moved on. In 2011, after the press conference that announced both Max and Rebecca's deaths weren't homicides, he wrote a letter to California's Attorney General Kamala Harris at the time, asking for help. He essentially stated in the letter that he was convinced that Max's death was an accident, and that Rebecca's was self-inflicted, but he realized that other people wanted more, and that because of that, a reevaluation of the cases, even if they found the same thing,

• 1:05:20Annie Elise?

  would be the only way for everybody to move forward. This letter is two full pages long, so I don't want to read the whole thing, but I do want to include a very small portion, just so you can really see and understand why Jonah has been quiet for all of these years. He wrote, "Admittedly, the circumstances of Rebecca's death were so unusual and upsetting that it was difficult to accept the hard facts as they were presented. However, all of the evidence, including the information disclosed at the press conference and in the released materials, as well as certain other pertinent facts, helped to provide some much-needed explanation and context for the events that occurred."

• 1:06:01Annie Elise?

  In another section, he wrote, "If your office believes any further investigative steps are warranted, then of course the interests of justice demand that they be pursued. And if your assessment serves to validate the September 2nd findings, then hopefully this matter can be resolved finally. To be clear, I have no reason to doubt the San Diego and Coronado authorities' findings, and I remain appreciative of their dedication and professionalism throughout this process. At the same time, I believe the only way to achieve some dignified resolution for everyone who has been touched by the horrible events of this summer will be through the efforts of your office." So hearing that, I mean, yeah, it makes sense why he's been quiet.

• 1:06:44Annie Elise?

  He agrees with the investigators, and he always has agreed with them. As for Rebecca's family, they have continued their pursuit in finding justice for Rebecca, and they've done that with her sister Mary really being the spearhead of the entire thing. Pretty recently, in March of 2025, Mary actually wrote a book about Rebecca's case, and it's titled "Unraveling the Knot: A Sister's Relentless Fight for Justice in the Murder of Rebecca Zahau." It's been over a decade since Rebecca and Max died, and their deaths still remain a mystery. I mean, depending on who you ask, of course. As far as law enforcement is confirmed, their deaths have been resolved and their cases are closed. But according to other people?

• 1:07:30Annie Elise?

  Not so sure. And I'm curious, where do all of you stand? Not only with Rebecca's death, but with Max's death as well? Do you believe that Max's death really was just an unfortunate accident which resulted in then Rebecca taking her own life? Or do you think that someone out there has both Max and Rebecca's blood on their hands? It's interesting, right? There are a lot of interesting nuances here, and I'll be honest, I'm not really quite sure what I believe. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode. As a reminder, if you are listening to the podcast version of this, go ahead, take a quick second, whatever podcast app you're listening on, go to the corner and find the follow button, press follow so that you don't

• 1:08:12Annie Elise?

  miss any future episodes. Between this show and my other show, Serialously, we are dropping brand new cases every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and bonus episodes Friday. So you're going to want to make sure that you're following both of those to make sure you don't miss any. And if you're watching this over on YouTube, take a quick second, hit the subscribe button because everything is available here as well. But, quick little mention for all my YouTube watchers, YouTube has been becoming more strict with their guidelines of what I'm allowed to say, what we're allowed to talk about, even when it comes to legal terms, medical terms, all of the things. So for uncensored versions of these cases, and in some cases, extended versions,

• 1:08:54Annie Elise?

  because of things we have to cut out, you can always listen to those versions completely for free over on the podcast. Also, really quick, I just wanted to let you guys know, we have decided to do an amazing Black Friday sale where not only are we slashing all the prices of merch, and you can pick that up for yourself, for the holiday gifts, for whatever you want to do, but we also are offering the lowest membership rate ever for Patreon. So if you've been going back and forth on the fence about if you should join Patreon, now would be the time because it is the lowest rate of the year. Not only offering introductory rates that are super, super low, but also a huge discount on the annual membership. And

• 1:09:36Annie Elise?

  as a reminder, for what you get in Patreon, you not only get access to every single episode ad-free, but you get access to our 24/7 group chat where we are talking about every case all day long. You get access to exclusive giveaways, bonus videos, bonus episodes, behind the scenes content. All sorts of different like perks and promos. Also, there's a tier where you can talk directly with me, asking me any questions you have, asking me for a personalized video, whether it's a shout out, a piece of advice, whatever it may be. So go to patreon.com/annieelise to sign up for that. The sale is going to be active from November 24th to December 1st, and we also are going to have all of our merch on sale for that same window,

• 1:10:21Annie Elise?

  and you can get that at annieelise.com. So again, November 24th to December 1st, then everything goes back to regular pricing. So this is the time to act fast. All right. Thank you guys again for tuning in. Don't forget, let me know in the comment section on YouTube and in the Q and A section on Spotify or the review section on Apple, what do you think about this case? Do you think that it's shady and there's more to it? Or do you think it is as cut and dry as the police say? Let me know. All right. Thanks again. And until the next one. Stay safe. Bye.

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