Vicki Lawrence | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Revered comedienne Vicki Lawrence joins Billy Corgan to revisit her remarkable journey from an 18-year-old UCLA student to the youngest cast member of The Carol Burnett Show. Lawrence reveals what Carol Burnett told CBS executives when they wanted to replace her just six weeks into the series. She recalls Harvey Korman teaching her the craft of comedy and recalls memories of working with Rita Hayworth, Sammy Davis Jr., Dick Van Dyke, and Bob Mackie. She also shares the unlikely story behind “The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia” and explains how Mama evolved from a supporting character into a sitcom icon. Lawrence reflects on losing her husband just before their 50th anniversary and why classic television continues to comfort new generations. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:30Speaker 02

  I think the parents and the grandparents, they're passing those shows on because they were harmless. They were fun. It was, I always, it's kind of like you get to laugh for no good reason.

• 1:40Billy Corgan?

  It's a gentler time in sort of American comedy, and there's a sweetness to the thing that I particularly miss.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  We had so much fun on that show, and I have never been on another show like it.

• 1:51Billy Corgan?

  What do you think is the sort of the secret sauce on that, as somebody who saw it up close?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  I mean, we really never, I don't remember ever having a stressful day.

• 1:59Billy Corgan?

  You're an OG God.

• 2:04Billy Corgan?

  Vicky Lawrence, thank you so much for being here.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:09Billy Corgan?

  Where do we begin on this crazy journey that you've taken through life?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  I know, I'm old, it's, yeah, it's a long time ago. Last century.

• 2:18Billy Corgan?

  See, the thing is, because my generation grew up with you on television, I think we assumed you were older than you were, but when you were on television, you were very young.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Uh huh, I was.

• 2:29Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Eighteen when I started.

• 2:31Billy Corgan?

  Crazy.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33Billy Corgan?

  So that takes us to the perfect moment in time. You were voted in high school most likely to succeed.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  I was busy in high school. I was very busy.

• 2:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  I was a cheerleader, I did all the choreography for all the dance numbers. I was in every singing group on campus. I was busy.

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  Did you have the showbiz gene, or you had the performer gene? Because it's kind of different, or both?

• 2:58Speaker 02

  I don't, you know, I lived in Inglewood, close proximity to Hollywood.

• 3:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  But it never occurred to me to go into show business. It never just, I mean, I guess I thought it would never, no. I was going to be a dental hygienist.

• 3:13Billy Corgan?

  I know, I saw that. So, did the Young Americans singing group, whatever extravaganza that was, that came before Miss Fireball? Is that, do I have the sequence right?

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I started in the Young Americans my freshman year. There was this, I entered New Sky, uh, New School and entered the choir class. And in walks this incredibly unattractive guy who starts talking about being on the road last summer with Johnny Mathes. And I'm like, what the heck is he doing? Well, it turns out it was the Young Americans. So the next time there were auditions, I said, I can do that.

• 3:52Billy Corgan?

  And the Young Americans is still going, which is remarkable.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know, I feel like I got to do it in a really fun time.

• 3:59Billy Corgan?

  Well, you got to do it in the kind of the idyllic Disney kind of time, where it's, there's a movie, you're in the movie. Can you tell people what the Young Americans was? Because it's hard to even understand what it would be. It still exists, but it's sort of, it seems anachronistic to today's society.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  It was all high schoolers. You had to have a B, at least a B average. You had to be musical. You had to pass like sort of a musical audition. And, uh, and it was, it was all students. And we had so much fun. I mean, we used to do the Hollywood Palace, jog your memories, kids. We, we did sing with Johnny Mathes. We got to do all the background vocals for Henry Mancini when he was at the Greek Theater.

• 4:42Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's cool. Andy, I saw Andy Williams.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  The Andy Williams Show. Yeah, it was really fun.

• 4:48Billy Corgan?

  And you try, do you actually travel with that thing?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:51Billy Corgan?

  How were your parents with all that? Did they sort of encourage the showbiz thing?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  My mom did, for sure.

• 4:57Billy Corgan?

  Did she see something in you that made sense to her that you would want that, or was it just like a fun thing?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know. I think she wanted to be a performer herself. The story she always told us was that she sang with a little, a small group of guys. I guess there were three guys and my mom. And they wanted to go off to New York and try to make it. And she wanted to go, and her mom said, no, you're not going. So I think, yeah, she pushed a little bit.

• 5:31Billy Corgan?

  Did you play the Illinois State Penitentiary? I saw that.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Well, that was in the movie, yes.

• 5:39Billy Corgan?

  Just the idea of these fresh-faced California kids coming in.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  I know, it was kind of trippy.

• 5:43Billy Corgan?

  Facing the hardened criminals.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:46Billy Corgan?

  Were you at the premiere on August 21st, 1967, which I believe was held like in Kansas or something?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Was that?

• 5:53Billy Corgan?

  For the premiere for the movie.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  No, I don't think I was.

• 5:55Billy Corgan?

  Because the movie's online, which is kind of interesting.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I know, I, yeah.

• 5:59Billy Corgan?

  Have you gone and looked at it?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  I have gone and watched it. Because when I talk about Carol, people always ask me if, uh, if I studied her. And I said, I never studied her at all. But I went back and looked at that documentary. I was kind of geeky and gawky like a young Carol.

• 6:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah. And then the craziest part of that whole thing is that that movie won an Oscar.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:21Billy Corgan?

  And then they took it away.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:24Billy Corgan?

  Which is like, couldn't they figure it out that the, because the reason they took it away was because technically the movie wasn't legal for the time that it won, or something?

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Because of our cinematographer, I think, right?

• 6:34Billy Corgan?

  Something where it came out or something. That's the story online, is it came out and they realized later that it didn't fit the window for viability. So then they took the Oscar away from you guys.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, I didn't know it was a window. I thought it was one of our cameramen.

• 6:48Billy Corgan?

  Maybe that's the secret story.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  Maybe it was a moral issue.

• 6:54Billy Corgan?

  So, yeah, so then there's this Miss Fireball, which, you know, is, I like, I love this word, apocryphal. It's the kind of the apocryphal moment in your life, because this, this whole sequence of events leads to you being on The Carol Burnett Show. So I know you've told that story 500 times. So if you want to tell the condensed version, I'm okay with it, but I just find it so interesting. You know, the idea of fate is such an interesting thing.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess so. I used to enter everything, every contest that came around. I, I don't, I guess I was bored. I don't know, I would just enter contests. And so this one came up, and it was a fireman's ball. And they decided to call it a contest and maybe get some young girls to come out and dance and sing for them. And I was one of eight girls. And our newspaper gal did a big article about two weeks prior to the, to the contest. And in the newspaper, she said, I bore a striking resemblance to a young Carol Burnett. And my mom said, you need to write her a fan letter. And as I said, I had never studied her. I was aware of her.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  I saw her, I saw the TV version of Once Upon a Mattress that they did. So I saw that.

• 8:06Billy Corgan?

  She was kind of, this is before the Carol Burnett show. She was kind of on television in little roles and guest things and.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  On and off.

• 8:13Billy Corgan?

  She was kind of a known personality, but she wasn't yet like a star.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  No, she wasn't not a star. She had a brief series that she co-hosted with Bob Newhart called The Entertainers. And John Davidson was their little resident singer. And I had a crush on him, so I did watch that show a little bit. But I wasn't watching Carol.

• 8:31Billy Corgan?

  He was handsome.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  I was watching John.

• 8:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Anyway, so I, yeah, I wrote her a fan letter. I used to write a lot of fan letters, but it was always to all the cute young guys that were on television.

• 8:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  I just, I told her I would like to meet her. Didn't really ask for anything. Everybody says I look like you. And I mailed it off to Carol Burnett.

• 8:55Billy Corgan?

  Did you include the little, the newspaper?

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Yes, I put the newspaper article in so she could see that I wasn't nuts. And she managed to get the letter before the contest. Actually, her cousin was her secretary at the time. Cuz, she always called her cuz. She said, cuz called me in my office and said, you need to read this fan letter. And she took my dad's name out of the newspaper article, looked us up in the phone book, which nobody even knows about anymore.

• 9:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  And she called me after school.

• 9:31Billy Corgan?

  That's a crazy story.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  And I know, it's pretty crazy.

• 9:34Billy Corgan?

  Because your whole life literally goes in this direction because of this one thing.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Uh huh, yeah. And she had to talk her husband into coming to the contest. She said, I want to go see it.

• 9:44Billy Corgan?

  And she was very pregnant at the time, as the story goes.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and her husband said, what is she? It was at, it was at Hollywood Park. It was at the racetrack, which is now SoFi Stadium.

• 9:54Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  But back in the day, you know, it was a thoroughbred horse racing track. And her husband said to her on the way down, what the hell is she, a jockey? And she said, just, I have a hunch. I want to go to this contest. I'm pregnant, indulge me. So she's asked for two seats way in the back. She said, I will just sneak in. And then I'll call you in a couple of weeks and we'll have lunch and discuss your career, sweetie. And I thought, okay, well, she's out of her mind.

• 10:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  It was, the whole thing was just so surreal.

• 10:29Billy Corgan?

  Did you win Miss Fireball?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  I did.

• 10:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  I did, and she crowned me.

• 10:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  They asked her to come up.

• 10:35Billy Corgan?

  Is there a picture of that moment?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Oh, God, yes.

• 10:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:40Billy Corgan?

  So amazing.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  And it's all we did. We went backstage after the contest and took some pictures with the mayor, and I think maybe with the fire chief. And she said, I will be in touch, and that was it.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  That was November of my senior year. January of my senior year, I came home from school and my mom said, Carol just had that baby. And she is at St. John's in Santa Monica. So I guess my mom really did kind of push, didn't she? And I was on my way to a recording session with the young Americans. So I said to the guy that I was ride sharing with, I said, I want to stop by the hospital and say hi. And he said, you're not going to get in to see Carol Burnett. And I said, well, I'm going to try. I know her married name, so I'm going to try. So we go into St. John's maternity ward, third floor. I go up, there's two nurses sitting behind the nurses station. It's very quiet. There's nothing going on. And as politely as I could, I said, I'm here to see Mrs. Hamilton.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  And they looked at me and they said, oh, my God, you must be her sister Chrissy. Wait till you see her. Wait till you see the baby. They took me right into her room. So, yeah, and nowadays I would probably be arrested, but.

• 11:50Billy Corgan?

  Was Carol okay with you just?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  She was fine. I had dinner with her about a couple of weeks ago. And her husband said, weren't you, how did you feel when this?

• 11:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Girl walked in your hospital room. Were you happy to see her? Carol said, I was. I was very happy to see her.

• 12:06Billy Corgan?

  Meant to be.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  I guess so.

• 12:08Billy Corgan?

  Meant to be.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:09Billy Corgan?

  I mean, what a, so Carol Burnett Show starts in 1967, runs through 78. There's other stuff that happens, but that's essentially the core show. Seventy Emmy nominations, 125, 279 total episodes of that run. You're the only talent that lasted all 11 years. And I didn't, because I, maybe because of the way it worked back then, I remember more so, of course, the Tim Conway being part of the show. But the original show, maybe because of the syndication, the original show was Lyle Wagner, you, Harvey Korman, and Carol was the core cast.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  That was the original.

• 12:46Billy Corgan?

  And that was like, for like, the first five, seven years, that was the core, kind of core cast of the show.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:51Billy Corgan?

  And I read somewhere Lyle was up for Batman, did get Batman.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Lyle left in the seventh season to go be Wonder Woman's leading lady.

• 13:02Billy Corgan?

  But you know, he was, he was, he lost to Adam West for Batman. Did you know that?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yes, but he was.

• 13:08Billy Corgan?

  It could have been a different history there with Batman.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you, an interesting history about Lyle, who was, he was a clever guy.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  He, after, he left the Burnett Show, and we worked at CBS, so the whole, everything was under one roof. Your dressing rooms, the commissary. Yes.

• 13:29Billy Corgan?

  Which is now, it's now going to be condos now or something, right?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  I hope not. I hope they don't take it away.

• 13:33Billy Corgan?

  I did something there recently. I think they still kind of use it.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Dancing with the Stars is there.

• 13:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but isn't the plan, they're going to turn into like, all condos or something?

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Well, I've heard that.

• 13:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  I, I hope they don't tear it down. Because I feel like it's kind of.

• 13:46Billy Corgan?

  I think they're not going to tear it down. I think the idea is it won't be a TV thing anymore, per se.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  They're going to make the studio condos?

• 13:52Billy Corgan?

  Something like that.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Worst elevator in the world. People are not going to like it. Anyway, he went over to Universal to do Wonder Woman. And it's a film lot, so he had a trailer, which was outside of the stage. And he went to his bosses and said, I really, I hate that trailer. If I were to design my own trailer and use it, would you, would you rent it from me? And they said, sure, no problem. And that's how Star Wagon started.

• 14:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, he started that?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  He is Star Wagon's.

• 14:27Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Wagon's with two G's, just like Waggoner. And, yeah, you see them everywhere. Richer than hell.

• 14:34Billy Corgan?

  I've been in a Star Wagon a few times.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Left his business to his sons who run it. Yeah.

• 14:38Billy Corgan?

  God bless.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:42Billy Corgan?

  There's so many, it, it strikes me, because I, I get these kind of questions where it's like, everybody has their specific memories, and, and I'm not assuming it's all a blur for you, but I mean, a lot of it's got to be a blur. With all that work.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:54Billy Corgan?

  Is that fair? I mean.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:56Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure there's a lot of things people mention to you, and you think like, I kind of remember that, and.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's another lifetime, really.

• 15:02Billy Corgan?

  That's true, yeah. So I guess my, my point of entry is like, I mean, here you are, you're not, I mean, you basically were plucked out of high school, essentially, right? Were you still in high school when you started on the show?

• 15:15Speaker 02

  I was. I met her November of my senior year.

• 15:18Billy Corgan?

  That's crazy.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  And I started on the show the same fall that I started at UCLA.

• 15:23Billy Corgan?

  So like, boom, you're.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  And they said, you may go to college.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  But we need you here at the studio at seven, or nine, I'm sorry, at 10, every, every day.

• 15:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  And so I took every course you could take at seven, or eight, or nine o'clock. And then I was off to the, so I had, really had no college life.

• 15:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  But.

• 15:41Billy Corgan?

  But how did you, gosh, I don't, I don't know how, everybody projects their own feelings into these things, so I'm asking you, obviously. But it's like, how did it feel, suddenly you're on national television?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  It was, I, I think I would watch the episodes like that when they were on the air.

• 15:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  It was like, it was like watching a horrible home movie to me.

• 16:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  To, yeah, I was kind of geeky and awkward and.

• 16:07Billy Corgan?

  What do you think, Carol, what do you think, I, I mean, besides the, the implication of physical resemblance, what do you think Carol saw in you? Something, right?

• 16:16Speaker 02

  I have no idea. I mean, I tell her all the time, I, I thank you for my life. Really? And she says, it would have happened anyway, sweetie.

• 16:27Billy Corgan?

  There is a faded feeling to the whole thing, for sure.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. I know that the suits came down about six weeks into the Burnett Show and said, she's really rough. Do you think maybe we could look for another kid? And she said, she's a diamond in the rough. And we're keeping her.

• 16:44Billy Corgan?

  That's so humbling.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 16:47Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:49Billy Corgan?

  The one thing that.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  She never told me that either.

• 16:51Billy Corgan?

  My grandmother loved your show, so I, I remember, you know, sometimes when somebody in your family loves something, you kind of, you pay different attention. And I really loved my grandmother. She had cool taste. And so I remember watching the show and trying to understand what she loved about it. And she loved the family dynamics, because she was Southern, even I think the part of that resonated with her. But, um, but the thing that really sticks out in my mind, when I sort of just have a kind of emotional resonance on it, is like, for lack of a better word, there, there was like a sisterhood between you two. You know what I mean? Like, it's obviously her show, but you're not treated, or you're, you don't feel like it's her and then you.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Well, I did.

• 17:32Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  I think she was kind of on a pedestal.

• 17:34Billy Corgan?

  But the vibe, but the vibe this way is a kind of an evenness.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 17:38Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Like a kid, like a kid's sister.

• 17:41Billy Corgan?

  Yes, and I, so whether it was brilliance, her guile, or all of the above, or just affection, she, you come off in the show as part of her world.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:51Billy Corgan?

  That always came across.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:53Billy Corgan?

  No matter the circumstance. So that's really beautiful to me, because that's, that's, that's something beyond just like seeing some talent in you.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and that's why I was hired, was to play her kid's sister.

• 18:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Originally.

• 18:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Which is true to her story. She took her kid's sister to New York.

• 18:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So as, as the show goes on, do you feel like you gained more? Not power or agency. Did they ask you more of your opinion, or did you always feel like, I just got to kind of be cool and?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  I don't think they ever asked for my opinion. And I was so shy. If you could get me to say hi, it was a miracle.

• 18:27Billy Corgan?

  And her husband was the producer.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Executive producer.

• 18:31Billy Corgan?

  So obviously, it's her world, too.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. The first thing they let me do outside of playing her sister was a sketch we did, I think in the second season. And it was a takeoff of the Newlywed Game. And I was married to one of our crazy looking, silly little writers. And Carol was married to the guest star, and I think Harvey was married to somebody else. And it was a takeoff on that game. And I came up with this character for that sketch. It was really stupid.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  And she kind of became a staple of mine. And I think their thinking was if she screws it up, she's not gonna mess up the whole sketch because it was a very tiny little part. And if she's good, it's a stepping stone.

• 19:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  I really am pretty sure that's what they thought.

• 19:21Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 19:23Billy Corgan?

  And then you're with, obviously, like I said, Conway was appearing occasionally, but later he becomes a regular.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 19:31Billy Corgan?

  And of course, that cast is the one that everybody fixates on, the four of you. If you could just talk a little bit about their comedic gifts, because like, those are like ace, you know, improv guys.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:45Billy Corgan?

  Their ability to improvise is, even if you watch like Blazing Saddles that Harvey's on, it's like, there's obviously a lot of improv going on.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:53Billy Corgan?

  And the timing and the...

• 19:55Speaker 02

  I think, well, they were both brilliant in their own way. Harvey was classically trained.

• 20:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  As an actor, and he took his comedy very, very seriously. Always serious business. And, you know, Carol had a show to run, so it was Harvey who took me under his wing. And I, I think, decided to teach me to be a comedian.

• 20:16Billy Corgan?

  Can you just, you can be simple about it if you want, but like, what's something you feel like he showed you that you were like, oh, you know?

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Well, he would help me with accents, with dialects, with props.

• 20:27Billy Corgan?

  So he was sort of your trusted guy to go to, where he could tell you, hey?

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did. Because when I first started, he said, forget stage right and stage left, you can't even find the toilet. So I think it was train me or kill me.

• 20:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Uh, and he, yeah, he was like having a private tutor, really. So dialects, props, he would explain to me who I was in the movie takeoffs, because half the time I didn't know.

• 20:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I really credit Harvey for teaching me a lot.

• 20:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And in the, in the history of, of, I guess, American entertainment, you know, Carol has now ascended to that Lucille Ball level of like, I think it takes America a while to realize that the great comedians, the value that they have in our culture, and there haven't been a lot of them, which is kind of weird if you think about it, because there should be more.

• 21:23Billy Corgan?

  As somebody who still is with her friend and compatriot, but also somebody who worked closely with her, what did you see about her gifts that, that, that sort of awed you? Because this way, for somebody watching, family watching, you know, whatever you guys were on, I remember watching the show live, right? So, you know, the sense was she, she was like kind of an every woman or something, for lack of a better way to put it, like, you felt like you knew her and...

• 21:50Speaker 02

  I think, yes, I think people really...

• 21:51Billy Corgan?

  Which is kind of, Lucy had the same thing. You felt like everybody knew like a Lucy, you know what I mean? It's like, there, there's a beauty there and a sort of a gift there, but it's...

• 22:00Speaker 02

  And they're still on TV, both of them. And if you think back to...

• 22:04Billy Corgan?

  How crazy is that?

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Older comedians that we loved, they're not around as much as Lucy and Carol are still around.

• 22:12Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I'm saying, it's something, I don't know what it is, I mean, I'm waxing poetic, but it seems harder to become a, like a top level comedian in our culture, but the ones that do, we never let go of them.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:27Billy Corgan?

  I don't know what that is, maybe it's just some deeper mother complex or something, you know? Or maybe it's the way America projects on women in the culture.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  The memories, because, I mean, they were both, so, you know, when I was first on the show and I didn't have a lot to do, I would get out of the studio much quicker than Carol ever would, and her deal was every Friday night after the taping, she would take her guest star to Chasens for dinner, she and her husband and the star and whoever the spouse was. And I would run out ahead of them, nobody knew who I was, so nobody cared. And I would sit on the hood of my car in the parking lot and watch them come out of the artis entrance. And it was always interesting to me, I said to Carol one time, why does everybody call you Carol, but if it's a movie star, it's Miss Hayworth or, who else?

• 23:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Miss Swanson, Miss Turner. And she said, because, sweetie, they are sitting in bed watching you with a beer, and they know you, you're, you're in their house, so you're a friend.

• 23:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's so interesting to me.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. So she's much more approachable than a movie star.

• 23:44Billy Corgan?

  As a, as a great comedian yourself, is it her timing, is it her ability, like, is she, because sometimes, like, like Lucy, she was okay with being the butt of the joke. Like, what do you think is the sort of the secret sauce on that, as somebody who saw it up close?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  I, well, I think that's who she felt she was for a lot of years.

• 24:07Billy Corgan?

  Kind of the butt of the joke?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot. And then, and when Lyle was first on the show, he was hired because he was handsome and because he had a kind of a cute little sense of humor.

• 24:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  And that she was gonna be the gawky, blah, you know, fawning all over him, which she hated, I know, but I think that's kind of, that was kind of her gig for a while.

• 24:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I remember seeing a clip of her, before Carol Burnett Show, maybe it's like she's on Ed Sullivan or something, she's playing this really gawky, like, it's all kind of really overdone. And you're kind of like, because, because obviously she got rid of that later. She would play that, but it was for comedy.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:44Billy Corgan?

  But then almost like her personality was like the gawky kid next door or something.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:50Billy Corgan?

  So...

• 24:51Speaker 02

  And I think, I mean, I think you really do feel how, how sweet of a person she is. I feel, I...

• 24:58Billy Corgan?

  My grandmother.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  You get that through the TV.

• 25:00Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure you've heard this a thousand, my grandmother loved her, like, loved her, like, like she thought of her like a family member.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:07Billy Corgan?

  She just loved her. It was like this, that's what I'm saying, when you're a kid and you're like, her? Like, like...

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Why her?

• 25:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, why her? Like, what is it, what am I missing? You know what I mean? And as you get older, you start to appreciate. Yes, but I'm saying it's a gift, because not everybody has that.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:24Billy Corgan?

  Like, I think I'm a nice person, but I meet people all the time that tell me, oh, I'm so intimidated by you, or, because they saw you in a video or something, and you're like...

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:32Billy Corgan?

  I'm just...

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Well, but a music video is a little less personal, sure, what we did.

• 25:37Billy Corgan?

  All I'm trying to say is, is like, you know, there's, not everybody, I work in professional wrestling, not that you need to know that, but, but not everybody who's a bad guy is a bad guy in real life, and not everybody is a good guy in wrestling is a good guy in real life.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:51Billy Corgan?

  Sometimes the way the public receives you as a personality.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I think, I think also, she was talked into by her manager or somebody said, you need to go out dressed beautifully as you, and let the audience get to know you, you need to do questions and answers.

• 26:10Billy Corgan?

  Oh, when she do that thing.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  And I think that was probably very pivotal, because you really got to see who Carol really was.

• 26:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  In that segment, before she dressed up, which she loved to do.

• 26:21Billy Corgan?

  I love old Hollywood, so you have to indulge me here for a second.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 26:25Billy Corgan?

  And the list of guests on the Carol Burnett Show was...

• 26:27Speaker 02

  I actually listened to your podcast.

• 26:29Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  And I was surprised how much of old Hollywood and old entertainment you know about.

• 26:35Billy Corgan?

  Love it.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  You're a child, you know?

• 26:39Billy Corgan?

  Well, we'll see in about one year.

• 26:42Billy Corgan?

  But I just, yeah, I just, because I, I love, you know, I was a latchkey kid, so television was everything in your, in, in our world, growing up in the seventies. So, so that's where it's even a blur, because I know I saw the show live, I remember watching it live, but I probably saw the show more times in reruns and, you know what I mean? Like, TV gets to like a blur back then, because it was like, you come home from school and whatever was on type thing.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:06Billy Corgan?

  But I love that there's this, there's certain times in, in American culture, and the Carol Burnett Show is one of those things where it's, it's this intersection of old Hollywood and like seventies TV. I mean, just this partial list of whoever's on the show, just indulge me, it's like Jim Neighbors, Steve Lawrence, Ken Berry, Mickey Rooney, Yigor May, Mel Torme, Bobby Gentry, Leonard Nimoy, Jerry Lewis, Bernadette Peters, Olivia De Havilland, Lana Turner, Lucille Ball, Rita Hayworth, Dinah Shore, Cass Elliot, Rock Hudson, Cher, Don Rickles, Gloria Swanson, Ella Fitzgerald, Joan Rivers, Phyllis Diller, Betty Grable, Sid Caesar, Jonathan Winters, Robert Hulley, Bob Hope, Peggy Lee, Betty White, of course, who became more of a regular

• 27:51Billy Corgan?

  over time, Liza, who's just put out a book, God bless her, and turned 80, and Dick Van Dyke, who at some point became like a cast member for a short period of time. I mean, just that list is like, that's a who's who of like...

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I know.

• 28:03Billy Corgan?

  Our crazy world that we have.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I often say, I feel like I got to touch the golden age of Hollywood.

• 28:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So when, when a guest star would come, was it, was it dependent on the star? Some people are more social, some people had their, their crew around them and...

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:18Billy Corgan?

  You'd meet them on the stage and that was it? Does anybody stick out in your mind that you at least felt you had some, a moment or connection with that you hold on to fondly?

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Well, I remember when Rita Hayworth was on, and, I mean, she was gorgeous, and I certainly knew who she was before she was on.

• 28:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  And she and Carol did a little Char Woman duet together, as a, I think it was the finale of the show.

• 28:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  And I was standing in the rehearsal hall one afternoon, I think it was Wednesday, so it was before run through, so they had been rehearsing for a couple of days. And they did that little number, and it finished, and Rita Hayworth came over and grabbed me by the shoulders and said, I don't know how you do this every week! And I, I just wanted to say, Miss Hayworth, get a grip, you ran up and down the stairs with Fred Astaire. But of course, they had three weeks to rehearse it.

• 29:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:18Billy Corgan?

  That's cool.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Gosh, who else? Sammy Davis Jr.

• 29:24Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  He, we finished run through on Wednesday, we would rehearse Monday, Tuesday, have a run through Wednesday, then Thursday and Friday we're on the stage.

• 29:33Billy Corgan?

  When you did the run through, was it just basically producers, writers, kind of sitting there?

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Well, it wasn't just basically, it was nerve wracking. I mean, it was frightening.

• 29:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  No costumes, very few props.

• 29:44Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Bright lights, folding chairs.

• 29:47Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  Not a crap load of laughter, really. Very serious, taking notes, you know?

• 29:54Billy Corgan?

  I have, I don't have a ton of experience in this form of the art, but I have noticed that people who write jokes tend not to laugh.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Unless you deliver it, yeah, no, they don't laugh. And they want it delivered perfectly.

• 30:06Billy Corgan?

  Well, like, we're in Howie Mandel's building, and it's like, it's really hard to make Howie Mandel laugh.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Really?

• 30:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  No, I love to laugh.

• 30:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, though, you're different, that's why you're here on the show. Because, no, because I, you know, I've, I've, I've known a few professional comedians in my life, and it's like, they just don't laugh.

• 30:24Billy Corgan?

  They just don't laugh, at least in my estimation. Maybe you were around nicer people. I don't know.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Well, I was around very nice people.

• 30:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Anyway, Sammy Davis Jr., who has a little portable bar that he would bring in with him every day. It's like a fold out. It was a whole setup. Anyway, he invited us all down to the stage after the run through. The week he was on, he had his orchestra there and he did his entire show for us.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  It was kind of.

• 30:52Billy Corgan?

  That's pretty cool.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 30:54Billy Corgan?

  Great entertainer. Wow.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Who else? Well, I had crushes on a lot of people. I had a crush on John Davidson. I had a terrible crush on Steve Martin, but to the point where I was too scared to even say hi. I was very shy, very shy.

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• 33:00Billy Corgan?

  That's so interesting.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:02Billy Corgan?

  You don't come off as shy.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  I don't think I am so much anymore.

• 33:06Billy Corgan?

  But even in the show, you didn't come up shy. Is it the lights go on and you kind of?

• 33:12Billy Corgan?

  You know what I'm talking about?

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:14Billy Corgan?

  I'm sure there's moments, I don't know, I'm projecting my own showbiz experience, but like sometimes I walk on stage and I think, what the hell am I doing here? And then the lights go on and there's something.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Well, I do that too.

• 33:22Billy Corgan?

  Kind of like you're like something, okay, God bless. So I'm saying something flicks on in my brain. I'm like, oh, I, I'm in show business. Like, here we go.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And when you hear your name, when you actually hear people say, uh, Vicky Lawrence in a celebrity context, I'm like, what is Vicky Lawrence? How did Vicky Lawrence become? How do people know that?

• 33:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  And it sounds bizarre to me. My own name does.

• 33:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And it's your real name.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:49Billy Corgan?

  Can you just talk a little bit about, back to Miss Hayworth's comment, the grind of doing a show like that?

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Was not a grind at all.

• 33:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Can you tell me why it wasn't?

• 33:59Speaker 02

  We had so much fun on that show and I have never been on another show like it. Well, Mama's Family was like that.

• 34:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Cause I was lucky enough to take much of the staff with me to Mama's Family. But the, the show ran like a top because Carol wanted to be home every night to have dinner with her kids and she wanted to see them off to school. So rehearsals was started 10 for us and I think the dancers may have started earlier. But we started at 10 and if the schedule said you were going to be done at 3pm, you could make an appointment for 3:30 and keep it. And that does not happen in show business at all, ever.

• 34:37Billy Corgan?

  That's unusual.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that, I mean, the show ran like a top.

• 34:41Billy Corgan?

  So how much, how much memorization were you expected to do? I saw this interesting thing where you all had different colored cue cards. What was your color?

• 34:49Speaker 02

  I think I was green. I think, but I don't really remember.

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  It was either green or blue.

• 34:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:57Billy Corgan?

  So how much memorization versus cue card reading?

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Pretty well memorized unless they would change a joke at the last minute.

• 35:05Billy Corgan?

  Good natural memory?

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Once I get something on its feet, I can memorize.

• 35:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay, yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  I have a very hard time just memorizing a script and doing it like that. But once I associate with props or where I am on the stage, very easy for me to learn.

• 35:26Billy Corgan?

  Tape on Friday? Is that accurate?

• 35:28Speaker 02

  We did, yeah.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  So Wednesday, if you did the run through on Wednesday, was it another rehearsal day on Thursday?

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Thursday was blocking, camera blocking.

• 35:35Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Just all the boring.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Kind of tedious.

• 35:37Billy Corgan?

  Be here, yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:38Billy Corgan?

  No more run through and then Friday, two, two run throughs.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  We do a dress rehearsal in the morning.

• 35:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  And then we did two shows. The first one was called the dress rehearsal.

• 35:46Billy Corgan?

  So basically three run throughs on the. Three, three run throughs on the Friday. Is that, is accurate? I'm just trying to say, I'm just curious about all this stuff.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  We would do a dress rehearsal in the morning, like maybe from 10 to noon. You'd have a good long break.

• 35:59Billy Corgan?

  In costume or?

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  And then you'd have a nice break and then we did an afternoon show in front of one audience.

• 36:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  They'd clear that out, bring in another audience and we would do a second show and then they would edit between the two. But pretty much it went like a live show.

• 36:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Unless you had to stop for a huge set change or a huge costume change and you didn't keep Carol waiting. And she was fast. She was fast. I mean, she worries to death about the audience.

• 36:28Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  She doesn't want them to get bored. She wants them to really have a good time.

• 36:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  And so you gotta keep it moving.

• 36:35Billy Corgan?

  So in a taping window, it's an hour show. So you're just about, the whole show time is probably like 45, 50 minutes.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:41Billy Corgan?

  So is it about, so?

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Probably took us closer to 75 to 90 minutes to do the show.

• 36:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, technical issues and stuff like that. Once you, once you were in this situation where now you have a gig and you're on the show and, and you're, you're sort of ensconced in that world. How did your parents sort of feel about this, this part of your life?

• 37:04Speaker 02

  I know they were proud. I think my mom got maybe a little bit jealous. Cause she wanted to be in show business, so she really pushed. She took me to all the dance classes. She pushed me into musicals in, in high school. She took me to every show that ever came to LA and I mean, I remember seeing, I think we saw Mary Martin and Peter Pan. I know I saw Gwen Burden in Sweet Charity. Like amazing shows.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  And I would always get so sad at the intermission. My mom would always say, why? I said, because it's going to end soon.

• 37:44Billy Corgan?

  Aww.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  So obviously I love showbiz, just never knew that it was something I would do. But I think they were, my dad would come to the show quite often.

• 37:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Billy Corgan?

  Bob Mackie has become kind of this legend.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, he has.

• 38:00Billy Corgan?

  You know, more so associated with Cher, but can you just talk a little bit about Bob Mackie? Cause it's kind of, it's a fascinating thing where it's like, maybe somebody who was associated with more commercial work or television work. He's, his legend has sort of grown over time.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:15Billy Corgan?

  And now like I even see recently, maybe it was one of the pop stars like wore like a, a Bob Mackie original that Cher owned or something. It's, it's become kind of, his name has kind of come back up.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're recycling a lot of his old costumes.

• 38:29Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you, I mean, you must've worked with him, but he wasn't necessarily designing. He was more, the, the looks were for, for Carol, right? These kind of.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  The gowns?

• 38:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Did you ever get a gown? You ever, Bob?

• 38:43Speaker 02

  I did. I got a few.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Not like Carol.

• 38:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  But yeah, I got a few and you could always borrow things and he, he was, he wasn't a whole lot older than me when the Burnett show started. And he was one of the people, one of the very few people that would sit next to me in the audience and we'd talk about showbiz. And I think he grew up somewhere kind of near where I did. So it was, he was really nice to talk to him. He was adorable back then too.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  But yeah, he would just sit and, you know, make me comfortable.

• 39:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I just think.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Cause there were a lot, there weren't young people on my show.

• 39:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  I was kind of a loner.

• 39:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, and, and the real joke is you end up playing a woman who's older than all of them.

• 39:34Billy Corgan?

  We're getting to her in a second.

• 39:37Billy Corgan?

  How did you, did you feel famous? Did you get recognized? I mean?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  I did get recognized, but I didn't feel famous.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  I got together with an old girlfriend after the show was on the air. She hadn't been on long. And we decided to go back to Inglewood where we went to high school and go to all of our old haunts. And we were sitting in a Bob's Big Boy, I think it was. And this young girl came over to the table and said, could I get your autograph? And my girlfriend said, after she left, said, you've changed.

• 40:14Billy Corgan?

  To you?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. I said, I haven't changed. I, I'm me.

• 40:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  It's all still the same.

• 40:20Billy Corgan?

  Hello, I'm still here.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  But it's different to everybody when all of a sudden you people know you.

• 40:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  So yeah, I feel like I lost a few friends.

• 40:29Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Well, I think a lot of the kids and the young Americans were jealous that, why her?

• 40:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I def, I, I can relate. I mean, I dealt with.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  We have some really talented kids in there.

• 40:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But I mean, I dealt with a similar thing when my, my band got successful. There were a lot of.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  Musicians in Chicago where they're like, like.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Why him?

• 40:51Billy Corgan?

  Why you? Yeah. It was kind of a weird feeling because you're like, people weren't happy for you.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, not if they're trying to get there as well.

• 40:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's saying it's like, uh, it's like somehow you winning is them losing, but. You know, I mean, you're and somehow you're supposed to feel bad about that. In some cases, people would come and get mad like you were supposed to help them. Did you ever get that where people expect you to like make a call for them or?

• 41:15Billy Corgan?

  Do you ever get that?

• 41:15Speaker 02

  No, I don't think I ever. I don't think I ever got that.

• 41:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:21Billy Corgan?

  People, but people, I mean, what we're sharing is people's reaction to success or fame is is can be totally.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Because you change in their eyes.

• 41:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And you're like saying, oh, I'm still here, you know?

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's still me.

• 41:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like before we started taping, we just sat down and talked, you and your son had a nice conversation. I mean, we were just three normal people. It's like.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Right. Well, I don't know if we're normal, but.

• 41:44Billy Corgan?

  I'll let you be the judge of that.

• 41:49Billy Corgan?

  So as I told you, but before we started taping, um, I had the seven inch and nights went out. Like the night the lights went out in Georgia. Um, now your first husband wrote this song, is that?

• 41:59Speaker 02

  He did. We were married for like 10 minutes. It really, it was less than a year that we were married. It was a horrible mistake from the get go, I think, but he.

• 42:09Billy Corgan?

  What was the attraction?

• 42:12Billy Corgan?

  Cause you know, was he a musician?

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Well, he's a songwriter.

• 42:16Billy Corgan?

  But was he, was he a musician?

• 42:17Speaker 02

  He played the guitar.

• 42:18Billy Corgan?

  So that's your first mistake.

• 42:23Billy Corgan?

  Thank God he wasn't a drummer because it only gets worse from there.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Oh, does it? Okay. Well, yeah, he played the guitar. He wrote songs. He was on, uh, the Jimmy Rogers Summer Show. Cause back in the day, you used to do 22, 24 weeks.

• 42:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. This is Jimmy Rogers, the singer?

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  And then there were 13 weeks of.

• 42:41Billy Corgan?

  Was that the Jimmy Rogers that got shot in the throat? Do you know that whole thing?

• 42:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:46Billy Corgan?

  I think if it was here, like that's the guy.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 42:49Billy Corgan?

  See, if it was in the real life, we'd get off the phone and Google, but I believe Jimmy Rogers was the one that got shot in the throat.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Who shot him?

• 42:57Billy Corgan?

  If it's the person I'm thinking of, he was kind of.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  He was a singer?

• 42:59Billy Corgan?

  He was a pop singer, right? Jimmy Rogers?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:03Billy Corgan?

  A little bit country, but kind of pop.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. If this guy I'm thinking of, he was a huge star.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:10Billy Corgan?

  And there was something happened where, and it was always like one of these. I'm probably talking about the wrong person, but he's still interesting to talk about. The guy I'm talking about, I think it's Jimmy Rogers, was he, he pulled up somewhere and a guy walked up. According to his stories, guy just shot him in the throat. People believed it was like a mob thing or a gambling debt thing. So he still sang after that, but he was never quite the same and it kind of destroyed his career.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:35Billy Corgan?

  That's why I was asking, was that Jimmy Rogers?

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Geez, I don't know.

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Anyway, back to your, back to the, back to your song.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Anyway, they always did a summer replacement show for the big shows that were on the air and, uh, Bobby was a guest on the Jimmy Rogers Show. So that's how I met him.

• 43:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  He was very charming, very southern.

• 43:54Billy Corgan?

  Well, musicians, you know, they, we have a way.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Very charming.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And the southern was like, I, maybe it's just a guy with an accent. I think girls are always attracted to guys with accents.

• 44:08Billy Corgan?

  I've seen it with English guys. You know, they can't play the guitar for, but if they can talk with that accent, the girls are.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:17Billy Corgan?

  Did you, I, I know you said you entered lots of contests and, but I mean, did you consider yourself a singer? I mean, did you suddenly want a recording career or?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  I never wanted a recording career, but I sang a lot in high school. I was in every choral group that was on campus.

• 44:30Billy Corgan?

  Cause you have a good natural singing voice. Like it's, you know, a lot of times when people are like an actor and they do an album, you can tell they're not really a singer. I mean, they can sing, but they're not like, you sound like a professional singer. Like it just must come naturally to you.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Well, I sang a lot with the Young Americans.

• 44:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Oh, that's true. Right.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  I sang in all the groups on campus.

• 44:50Billy Corgan?

  So was it his idea that you do, do a record or?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  No, he, uh, he used to, um, usually when we went back to Nashville, he'd go in a little studio and demo all, anything he had written. And, uh, he was demoing one night and I said, what about Georgia? Cause I liked it. He said, I hate that song. And I said, I think that song is a hit.

• 45:12Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  And he said, well, then why don't you do the demo? Uh, so I was left to my own devices. I think there was like one guitar player. And we did the demo.

• 45:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  And took it out, brought it out to Hollywood. His producer at the time was Snuff Garrett.

• 45:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  And.

• 45:29Billy Corgan?

  I feel like I know that name, but I don't know how.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Well, he was, boy, back in the day, he was like, um, Bobby Rydell, he was.

• 45:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's how I know the name.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Who's the guy that did a hundred pounds of clay? Gene? Can't remember his last name.

• 45:44Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Gene.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  We need the Google.

• 45:48Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Who else did he do? A lot, a lot of these.

• 45:51Billy Corgan?

  We're not thinking of Tennessee Ernie Ford.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Gene?

• 45:55Billy Corgan?

  Gene Pittman?

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Gene? No. Anyway, he produced a lot of.

• 46:00Billy Corgan?

  You're talking about.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  He produced Cher. He was early Cher, like Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves.

• 46:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay, which you covered by the way.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Half Breed and, you know, probably because he had the publishing. I don't know.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 46:13Billy Corgan?

  Don't you love the entertainment business? I thought maybe it's because you liked the song.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Oh, no, not really. Uh, anyway, he liked Georgia. He thought it was, he said, I think this, this could be a hit. And, um, he tried to give it to everybody. Nobody wanted it. Because, uh, they all said it's going to offend the southern half of the country and no. No, it doesn't, it has to be rewritten. Well, Bobby didn't like it anyway. So he was like, I don't want to be rewriting it. Thing. I never liked it to begin with. So finally, after trying, he sent it, he sent it to Liza Minnelli first because he said, I want to work with her. And I said, she's so not right for this song.

• 46:55Billy Corgan?

  There's an alternate universe.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And he's of course, uh, played it for Cher. And Sonny said, no, I don't think she ever got to hear it. He said, no, it's going to offend the song.

• 47:07Billy Corgan?

  So funny, right?

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, especially when you've done half breed and.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves.

• 47:14Billy Corgan?

  Sure. Yeah. She'd already offended the, the, the, the half breeds and the, and the gypsies and the tramps and the thieves. Yes.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  So Snuff literally just finally threw up his hands and said, let's just go in the studio and do it with Vicky.

• 47:28Billy Corgan?

  So did it just come out as a single first? So the album followed when she had the success with the single?

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Yes. I, well, I lobbied long and hard for the guy that arranged that song. Uh, because Snuff had an arranger that he used all the time. And to me, a lot of his stuff all sounded alike.

• 47:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  And it was a little too cutesy for me.

• 47:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So who, who was your guy?

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Uh, I wanted Artie Butler because he had some stuff on the charts that I loved.

• 47:57Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  And, uh, boy, I really had to fight for him and finally Snuff gave it, gave in. And he's really the one who changed it from the major, it was major, it was very, I think Bobby knew three chords, basically.

• 48:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  So it was very major sounding. Artie arranged it so that it all of a sudden sounded very minor and a little spooky.

• 48:19Billy Corgan?

  See, that's when I, when we first met here earlier today, I said, that record always creeped me out.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:25Billy Corgan?

  There was something spooky about it.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. That was Artie.

• 48:29Billy Corgan?

  I remember hearing on the radio and just be like, whenever it came on, it had this vibe.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's a good arrangement.

• 48:35Billy Corgan?

  It's goth really, at the end of the day. You're, you're an, you're an OG goth.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  And he and Snuff did not get along.

• 48:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  So once the thing became a hit, which took like eight months,

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Snuff said, you have a contract. Well, now I'm going through a divorce. Because when the, the record started getting big, Bobby started getting jealous. Because people would call and want an interview with Vicky and he'd be going, well, what about me? I'm the one that wrote the thing. So it was sort of the ultimate demise of an already doomed marriage. And, uh.

• 49:09Billy Corgan?

  There's your, there's your follow up book.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  So Snuff said, you have a contract. I'm gonna sue you if you don't do an album for me.

• 49:18Billy Corgan?

  Had you signed a contract?

• 49:19Speaker 02

  I didn't want, yeah, I, I didn't want to do an album.

• 49:21Billy Corgan?

  Oh, so you were kind of forced to.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Cause I'm, now I'm going through a divorce. I just want to go back to the Carol Burnett Show and have fun.

• 49:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  So I had to, I, and with the old arranger, now we're back with the old arranger.

• 49:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  And it occurred to me that if you've got a winning team, you don't split them up.

• 49:40Billy Corgan?

  No, in Hollywood, you want to ruin what you've just created.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. No. So I'm not really proud of that album.

• 49:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Artie never knew what happened. He didn't know that Snuff didn't like him. And I would talk to him a couple of years ago and say, would you like to hear the real story?

• 49:54Billy Corgan?

  Number one in US and Canada, number one song. I never had a number one song.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Australia?

• 50:00Billy Corgan?

  Two million copies. Did you do any touring on the, on the success?

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Touring? No. No, I went back to work on the Burnett Show.

• 50:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  I mean, I was a full time job.

• 50:09Billy Corgan?

  That's I, I was trying, because you know, doing research on the show, sometimes there's things that just don't get answered in the information you have, which was like, I was like, did you want a recording career? Did you, you know, you, it's like, so you're answering my question. It wasn't for a particular aspiration you had.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  No, it was not. So the only thing I did were the, you know, the shows that you did, like Dick Clark and.

• 50:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's some, there's some awkward.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Midnight, uh, what was the midnight?

• 50:34Billy Corgan?

  Did you do Midnight Special?

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Special, yeah.

• 50:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I gotta find that clip.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Here are some pretty funny clips.

• 50:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's a one clip where for some reason you're standing on a beach.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  That was Dick Clark. I don't know. He probably didn't want to leave home because he lived out there.

• 50:47Billy Corgan?

  I mean, you're standing on a really sunny beach. There are people like playing football behind you and you're singing about a murder in Georgia.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:53Billy Corgan?

  And you're wearing kind of like a summer dress, right? And it's so, it's so awkward.

• 50:59Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever see, uh, just to maybe make you laugh is, uh, it must've been another Dick Clark show where the doors had to do a song on the beach, same type of situation with kids around.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:09Billy Corgan?

  And Jim Morrison no showed.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 51:12Billy Corgan?

  So Jim Morrison's cousin got up and pretended to be Jim Morrison. It's a mimed clip. So, so just Jim Morrison's cousin pretending to be Jim Morrison on one of those beach type of shows.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Funny.

• 51:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And he kind of doesn't, he kind of purposely doesn't, he turns his back a lot.

• 51:29Billy Corgan?

  Anyway, if you're bored sometime. Okay. We'll get off the recording career in a second, but I, I just, I found a couple of curiosities.

• 51:38Billy Corgan?

  In 1976, you recorded, there's a gun still smoking in Nashville?

• 51:44Billy Corgan?

  Was it like the follow up on the gun theme? Was this supposed to be a sequel?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 51:50Billy Corgan?

  I thought it's like, I thought this isn't, I thought it was for sure gonna be a sequel. You know what I mean?

• 51:56Speaker 02

  No, I don't think it was at all.

• 51:57Billy Corgan?

  Cause maybe Bobby Gentry, didn't she, she do, at some point, didn't she almost do like a follow up to?

• 52:02Speaker 02

  Oh, to Billy Joe?

• 52:03Billy Corgan?

  I think she did some kind of like, like on a sequel. Or there's another song that she did that's so like Billy Joe that you think it's, but it's not.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Fancy? I remember Fancy.

• 52:14Billy Corgan?

  Fancy's, Fancy's pretty good.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:16Billy Corgan?

  I like that.

• 52:19Billy Corgan?

  And then, I hope you laugh with me. There's a disco album.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  I will. Well, that was a.

• 52:26Billy Corgan?

  Newborn woman?

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Yes. That was a friend of ours. This is after I'm married to my.

• 52:31Billy Corgan?

  The crazy thing is you had success, but you had success with it.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Not much. Not a lot.

• 52:37Billy Corgan?

  Still, something. It has its own Wikipedia entry.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  I did not wanna do a disco album, but he really wanted to and he was a friend. So I said, okay, all right.

• 52:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I have to say.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  The other thing that I did that I loved doing was, I was, I sang a song on the soundtrack of a movie. That was fun.

• 52:56Billy Corgan?

  I didn't find that. What was that?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was a movie called Grasshopper.

• 52:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Uh, Jacqueline Basset was the star. I don't think the movie did terribly well, but it was just kinda cool to know that you're singing part of a soundtrack.

• 53:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Sorry. I just had a moment.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Also a song that Bobby wrote.

• 53:15Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:16Billy Corgan?

  Was it around that same time?

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:18Billy Corgan?

  Um, how did you find out that the, I know there were other kind of specials and summer runs of the Carol Burnett Show, but like, let's call it the core show that ran to 78. How did you find out that that, I know there was a rating issue, ratings issues and?

• 53:33Speaker 02

  When she left?

• 53:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's just, however you wanna take it. It's like, the show ends at some point.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  She decided to end it.

• 53:42Billy Corgan?

  Okay, okay. Were the ratings poor or she was just over it or?

• 53:47Speaker 02

  I never paid attention to the ratings too much, but the last year, ABC lured Harvey away.

• 53:54Billy Corgan?

  Did he have his own show type thing?

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Well, they told him he was going to. He never did. They told him, so they kinda stole him.

• 54:00Billy Corgan?

  I, you know what? I remember that.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Carol invited Dick Van Dyke to do the last season.

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And that was only like.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  He's a genius, but I heard Carol in an interview say that she didn't feel the writers ever really wrote for Dick. They were still writing for Harvey.

• 54:15Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  So they didn't feel like he got a fair shot the last season. And I'm sure the ratings did take, probably took a dip, although I think everybody loves him to death.

• 54:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  But she's ultimately the one that said, I, I think we're gonna leave while we're on top.

• 54:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I mean, as we sit here, Dick Van Dyke's still alive, hundred and going.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  And what a, what a nice man.

• 54:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  So sweet.

• 54:39Billy Corgan?

  He of course is the part of that famous sketch that you guys did, the, is it the password or?

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, yes.

• 54:45Billy Corgan?

  The elephant and?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  It was the password, the elephant story. Yes.

• 54:49Billy Corgan?

  With your famous blooper.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:54Billy Corgan?

  Did you, I would say, so in 1978, you would have been like, what, like 27 years old or something like that, right? Were you like, ready to move on? You had other things you wanted to, like, where were you at career brain wise?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  I was sad because, uh, doing the show was so much fun. I mean, we really never, I don't remember ever having a stressful day.

• 55:20Billy Corgan?

  That's so amazing.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Uh, we just had a good time. Cause that's what Carol was about.

• 55:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  And I really think, it really does trickle down from the top. However, that person behaves. I think that's the way the company runs.

• 55:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  And Harvey used to tell me all the time, this doesn't happen in real showbiz, Vic. Will you get out there in the real world of showbiz?

• 55:42Billy Corgan?

  People, it still comes across on the camera. The camaraderie is real.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:48Billy Corgan?

  You know?

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause he'd just come off the Danny Kaye show when he came on our show.

• 55:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  And, uh, I was in love with Danny Kaye. And Harvey said, if there was a funny joke that you had, the sketch would be rewritten so that Danny got the joke. That didn't happen on the Burnett Show. On the Burnett Show, if you were doing something funny, she'd be the first person out of her dressing room on the side, standing with the audience laughing.

• 56:13Speaker 02

  She, she said, I want this to be an ensemble.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  And, uh, she was totally encouraging of any of us doing something funny.

• 56:23Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:29Billy Corgan?

  Are you, it's not a projection, I hope, but it seems to me there's, one of the reasons I think that the, the, the show is so fondly remembered is it's, it's a gentler time in sort of American comedy and there's a sweetness to the thing that I particularly miss. And I, I'm, I'm shocked that there's nothing in our culture that I can even remotely think of that feels that way.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  No, not anymore. It's probably why it's doing so well in syndication. And I'll tell you what, during the pandemic, I've never gotten so much fan mail in my life. And I don't know, it could have been that people decided to start a new hobby, cause, cause it seems now like the selfie is the new autograph.

• 57:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Uh, but I was getting letters and they wanted pictures and autographs. So I thought, well, maybe that's what they're doing in their COVID time. Or, or they're watching the old shows because they were so comforting.

• 57:21Billy Corgan?

  I think that's exactly what it is.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:25Billy Corgan?

  You know, I, you know, the whole concept of fast channels, you know about that?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:29Billy Corgan?

  Fast channels are the, like, it started with the me TVs, but now it's extended into the digital realm where it's like, there'll just be the Carol Burnett Show on a network, like it has its own channel.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 57:39Billy Corgan?

  It'll play 24 hours a day. That's a fast channel. Um, and, and a lot of those shows, cause I work in television too, they're, they're making a ton of money. Because people just put them on and it's like, it's digital wallpaper. They just wanna be comforted by something familiar that they, they feel good about.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:57Billy Corgan?

  So it makes total sense to me that that show would continue in perpetuity because there's a vibe there that's just, it's not, it's shocking to me. It's cause I, I got three kids, 10, seven and a, and a baby. So, you know, they're entering this.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Got your hands full.

• 58:12Billy Corgan?

  Very much, very much so. Uh, yes, I was, the baby likes to call me on FaceTime. That's an interesting one. I pick up the phone, of course, it's my wife and it's the baby walking through the house, talking to me in baby gibberish.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 58:25Billy Corgan?

  It's a very modern life thing, but, but you know, as you, you know, you're a parent, you know, you start thinking, what are my kids taking in? I, it's like, I, I, I'm purposely having them watch old shows.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  A lot of people are.

• 58:39Billy Corgan?

  Because I want them to enjoy what I enjoyed, but also I know that it's safe, that it's.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:44Billy Corgan?

  You know, that they can just sort of enjoy the dynamic or something. There's nothing in there that they're gonna have to go, what, what is that?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  No, I do Comic Cons occasionally and, um, that's all I hear is that my grandma introduced me to this show and I love you so much. Grandma's gone, you're such a big part of my life. And it's, it's very endearing. It's really sweet. And I, I think the parents and the grandparents, they're passing those shows on cause they were harmless. They were fun. It was, I always, it's kinda like you get to laugh for no good reason. It's just silly.

• 59:18Billy Corgan?

  Is it, is it, um, cause you, you know, if that was all the only success you'd ever had and you had other success, so that's not the point, but, but, you know, is it, is there a certain thing that when you reach that sort of, the heart of the American culture, you know, cause being in a rock band, you, you, people know who you are, but they don't think of you the way they think of people in an institutional way. Like, like you said, people felt they knew Carol. They were like Johnny Carson, he was, we'd sit in bed at night and watch Johnny Carson before we went to bed and we all did.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  The whole country did.

• 59:49Billy Corgan?

  Yes. So I'm saying that's a different vibe. So having had that in your life, like, how do you feel about that now? Is it, is it warm your heart? Do you? I don't know how to answer the question properly.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  It's amazing that I, I feel that I got to touch that. You know, it's, I did a series a few years ago called The Cool Kids. And, um, one shortly into the series, uh, five or, five or six weeks or so, our, um, uh, showrunner comes down and says, we did a five last night. That is phenomenal in the ratings. And the guest star that week was Patrick Duffy from Dallas. And he's down this, we're having a table read. I said, Patrick, do you remember what the, uh, rating was the night that, uh, who shot JR? He said, yeah, it was a 33. Yep. We did a five and they're excited.

• 1:00:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  I, I got to work in a time when there were three channels. So the whole country was watching you.

• 1:00:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I interviewed, uh, not too long ago, Erin Murphy, who was the Tabathon Bewitched. And she was on the show from 11 months old to eight years old. And, uh, when she started with the show, they were doing 30 million people a week.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Billy Corgan?

  Just like, that's my.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  We were in the 30s consistently.

• 1:01:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Billy Corgan?

  So before you start into your, your other life here as mama, I just have to ask because I find all this fascinating. Match game, password, Hollywood Squares, you're sort of in that, the celebrity.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Love games.

• 1:01:29Billy Corgan?

  Sure, but I'm saying it's just like, you know, I'm home watching all this stuff, but it's like, you know, there's a, at least for those of us grew up on that type of television, there's a sort of a romance to the, you know, the, whatever that vibe was, Pauline, and you know, it's all that, whatever, that vibe. So can you just give me a vibe check on that? I just find it so fascinating. Did you, did you have a manager was like, you need to go on these shows?

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I just love game shows. No. And once you've been on one and the producers know that you love it, everybody starts calling, and you're good.

• 1:02:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  If you're a good player.

• 1:02:02Billy Corgan?

  You're good at improv, so it's got to be part of it, right?

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  But no, I'm a game player.

• 1:02:08Billy Corgan?

  Sorry.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  I love playing games.

• 1:02:10Billy Corgan?

  I feel the competitive fire rising.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  I would get just so upset if I didn't win. And like one week, I lost the $25,000 pyramid and I felt so bad. And Dick Clark came up to me and he said, sweetie, she got 10 grand. When has somebody handed you $10,000 for doing pretty much nothing? She's happy. But I'm not. You don't win.

• 1:02:35Billy Corgan?

  I gotta win.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love to do the games.

• 1:02:38Billy Corgan?

  Plus you got the Vernon Shirley Love Boat. Was there a, was there a, did you have a manager in your saying, you gotta do this? Or were you self-directed at that point? Like, I mean, it's a pretty big thing to be on a network television show for 11 years. And again, there was other iterations, summer runs, but the, the point is this, like, you're going in a different direction. Did you have career aspirations? Did you?

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  I didn't really, Billy. I really, I feel like everything that has happened to me has been a gift and an accident. And I'm just, my entire life.

• 1:03:11Billy Corgan?

  Does that include your son in the other room?

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  Garrett wasn't, Courtney was. A lovely accident. My husband, I mean, I wouldn't have met my husband if it wasn't for Carol.

• 1:03:22Billy Corgan?

  You met on the, you met on the show.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  I do, I owe her my whole life.

• 1:03:25Billy Corgan?

  I meant to bring that up. Have you been with your husband over 50 years now?

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  He passed away just before our 50th anniversary.

• 1:03:31Billy Corgan?

  I'm sorry, I didn't know that. I wouldn't ask the question that way.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  Son of a gun.

• 1:03:34Billy Corgan?

  Sorry.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  I thought, we're gonna make it to 50. That's gonna be incredible. We were very close.

• 1:03:41Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing though. 50 years is.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Billy Corgan?

  God bless. I'm sorry, I didn't, I didn't know. I wouldn't ask that.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  Marry your best friend is my advice.

• 1:03:50Billy Corgan?

  I seemed, my, my wife thinks she's my best friend?

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  It's not reciprocal.

• 1:03:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, I don't understand my wife.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  Oh, well.

• 1:03:59Billy Corgan?

  Here, let me ask you this. Did you understand your husband?

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  Oh God, yes. Cause we had a lot of similar backgrounds. We had mothers that were tough and

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  we kind of understood each other very well.

• 1:04:14Billy Corgan?

  I don't, I don't understand my wife at all.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  So, and how nice is it to have a guy that makes your face pretty? It's very nice.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  Did he, did, did I read right that he kind of ended up kind of running the, the business side of your life and?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  He did.

• 1:04:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  He did. He wanted to, when we first got married, he wanted to leave the Burnett Show and go do Planet of the Apes, because he had a lot of makeup friends that were working on all these prosthetic things.

• 1:04:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, if you're a makeup guy, that's, that's a gig.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So he said, are you okay with that? And I said, absolutely. Go and have a good time.

• 1:04:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  So, yeah, that was a fantasy of his. But then when we had kids, it was like, how are we gonna do all of this? And he pretty much became Mr. Mom before it was fashionable.

• 1:04:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay. God bless.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  He did a lot of heavy lifting.

• 1:05:04Billy Corgan?

  So, correct me if I'm wrong. Suddenly there's this idea of a TV movie, Eunice, which is based on the Mama sketches. Did you guys call them the Mama sketches? Or what would, there was a name?

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  The family.

• 1:05:18Billy Corgan?

  Family. And, and, so Eunice is the character that Carol played, that the much aggrieved daughter, right? And, and correct me if I'm wrong, at some point before that, you'd been offered like a spinoff series or something as Mama and you turned it down.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  I did. And I think it was the eighth season. And I'd just been pregnant for nine months. And I'm like, I don't want to go be an old woman for every week. I just don't want to do it.

• 1:05:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  It was Carol's husband. He said, I want to spin it off.

• 1:05:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  And I said, but, but what if it doesn't work? He said, and you'll come back here.

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  I said, my tail tucked between my legs. No, I don't want to do this. So I, no, I said, no.

• 1:06:04Billy Corgan?

  So when they did the TV movie, you thought, okay, that's fine. I'll work with Carol and it'll be like a limited thing. And right? Is that, is the logic?

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Well, she had a deal with CBS for so many specials.

• 1:06:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  So she commissioned that script as one of her specials.

• 1:06:17Billy Corgan?

  So you were cool with it as a sort of a TV thing?

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like a gig and it'll be fun. And I mean, just want to understand your logic.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  I think we were all living in Hawaii at the time. And Carol came out to the pool one day, slammed that script down in front of my face and said, read this, see if you want to do it.

• 1:06:35Billy Corgan?

  But there's only one problem, they kill off your character.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  Well, that's what I said. I said, Mama dies in the end. She said, just, do you want to do this or not? Let's, don't be greedy. So yeah, we did the special.

• 1:06:48Billy Corgan?

  And that special did well.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  It did well.

• 1:06:50Billy Corgan?

  And so now they have to figure out how to bring Mama back.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  I was nominated for an Emmy.

• 1:06:54Billy Corgan?

  God bless.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  The category was hysterical. I wish I had the list of, oh my God, it was hysterical.

• 1:07:01Billy Corgan?

  Best young person playing a venerable character.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  But they were all serious actresses, all the women that were in this category. And, and then there's me and I was sitting next to Harvey at the Emmys and he said, you're so not winning, sweetie, but I'm so proud of you.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I still, Garrett actually found a letter from Carol that she wrote me after that, after it aired. And he framed it for me because he said, it's the coolest letter, Mom, where she just says, you, you stole the show.

• 1:07:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God bless.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  It's a really sweet letter.

• 1:07:38Billy Corgan?

  So is it as simple as the, the special did it well enough? They're like, we gotta do this. So?

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  The special had not aired. Carol invited us up to her house to screen it before it ever went on the air.

• 1:07:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  And before the credits even started to roll, she was all over me. You've got to do this as a series. And Harvey, you have got to do this as a series.

• 1:08:04Billy Corgan?

  Did you say the logical thing, but you just killed the character?

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  Carol said, it's your fault. I can't. Yeah. She said, she will take care of you. Do her, do it.

• 1:08:15Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  So she kind of talked me into that.

• 1:08:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  And she's right. Mama has taken lovely care of me. Yeah. Another gift, another gift from Carol.

• 1:08:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  You know, Mama was written for her. She was supposed to be Mama.

• 1:08:36Billy Corgan?

  And how did you end up as Mama?

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  She didn't want that character. She didn't feel that was her. She, she was supposed to play Mama and they were gonna get a guest star to play Eunice and it was gonna be a one-time sketch.

• 1:08:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:08:49Billy Corgan?

  She would have been a good Mama, I think.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  Well, I think Mama is a little ornier than Carol. Carol plays the Eunice type better, I think.

• 1:09:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, she's so good as Eunice. I mean, the dynamic between you two is just.

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. She said, I really want to be Eunice. And I think she went to Bob Mackie and said, couldn't, couldn't we make Vicky Mama? And he said, yeah, of course. Cause he'd made me many old ladies by then. Cause it was her show. If she was Shirley Temple, I was the mean old school teacher. She was a princess. I was the wicked witch. It was, you know, we'd done it a lot already.

• 1:09:27Billy Corgan?

  So you end up back at TV City.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Same studio. Now I've got Carol's dressing room. That was a little nerve wracking.

• 1:09:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  I'm like, I'm not supposed to be in here.

• 1:09:38Billy Corgan?

  Did you, were you okay with sort of being the star of the show? I'm not saying it not as an ego thing. I'm saying it's like a lot of pressure. Like you said before, you didn't pay attention to ratings. Now you're in this position where it's like, you don't draw the ratings, it's your fault. Right? I mean, is that fair?

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I.

• 1:09:55Billy Corgan?

  Are you just not that type of personality?

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  I was pretty comfortable because I knew Mama like the back of my hand pretty much by then.

• 1:10:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Although not really. I mean, that show was sold, the, the legend is it was sold on the golf course. Grant Tinker was the head of NBC at the time.

• 1:10:11Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  And Joe sold him the whole idea for the series. We never did a pilot. We were just.

• 1:10:18Billy Corgan?

  Pretty remarkable.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Put on the air.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  And the poor writers had to figure out who Mama's family was kind of on the fly.

• 1:10:25Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  You know, they, Eunice's family anymore. It's gotta be Mama's. And how do we make that happen?

• 1:10:30Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  So it was a little bit of a tough transition.

• 1:10:33Billy Corgan?

  I read some weird thing where they, they wanted Mama to sleep with somebody in the first episode and you, you put your foot down.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  It was the only time that I ever disagreed with the writers. And it was probably midway through the run. And the storyline is that her brother-in-law shows up, her husband's brother, who's a, I think he was like a merchant marine or something. So he comes back, he's very nice looking. And they wrote in the script that they sleep together, but Mama never says anything and the family never really knows for sure. And I said to the writers, you know, I think this is really wrong. I do not think Mama would ever, ever sleep with her brother-in-law. She is nothing if not a Bible fearing Christian. And I just don't think this would ever happen.

• 1:11:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  And the writers were kind of upset. And Joe said, listen to Vicky. For first and only time, I think he ever said that.

• 1:11:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It kind of reminds me of, you know, what, you know, Gunsmoke, which was 20, 21 seasons long. They made the decision at some point that James Arness would never get with the Kitty character. It was always sort of implied there was a romance. But even when the show's ratings started to dip, you know, 16 seasons in, of course, somebody suggested, well, maybe you guys get married and it'll pop the ratings. And they said, no, don't mess with it. Like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So they rewrote that episode and the family thinks maybe she did, but they never really know for sure. The audience knows for sure.

• 1:12:06Billy Corgan?

  So it's kind of a weird thing. And it's maybe too inside baseball, but it's like, the show runs for two years, gets canceled or doesn't get renewed. Then it's sort of, is on reruns for a year and then kind of gets picked back up into local syndication because of the growth of those types of WGNs and those types of networks. And then you have like another three or four years is that.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  It was six years total.

• 1:12:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Billy Corgan?

  That's an odd history.

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  It is, but it was right when syndication was getting sort of popular. First run syndication was getting popular and you were sort of branching out away from those three big networks.

• 1:12:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  NBC, the problem for us was that the young guys that worked, the young guns, the suits, number one, did not understand a young woman playing an old woman and number two, did not like rural comedy. And some of our best comedies are the rural. I would beg to differ.

• 1:13:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, this is why this character is so beloved and you're still touring on the character.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  And I still watch Andy Griffith. It was such an adorable show. I still watch some of the old shows. I love it. I love them because you just don't really, you're not nervous. Who's going to say what? You can have your grandbabies watch them. They're laughing for no good reason and just comfortable.

• 1:13:27Billy Corgan?

  There still is an inherent cultural bias in New York and LA towards southern culture.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:13:32Billy Corgan?

  As far as it being portrayed or has to be portrayed a certain way.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:38Billy Corgan?

  But having grown up with family from the South, that that's they love that character because they're like, they knew that character like the back of their hand.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. But they kept moving our time slot. They kept giving us tougher and tougher time slots. We went against Love Boat, started to falter a bit, then they put us again, I think they put us against Tom Selleck as Magnum P.I. And they faltered a little more. And I think they felt like they had enough ammunition to cancel us. So yeah, we sat for like a year and a half. And that was right at the time when Lorimar merged with Telepictures. And Lorimar was Dallas and Dynasty and all those soap opera shows. And Telepictures were these young guns that were going to go into the syndication business. And they were looking for things that they could buy and sell that hadn't really gotten a fair shot.

• 1:14:25Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  And they looked at the demographic of Mama's family and they said, this show, this show should be a hit. So they took us on. They didn't ask, the great part was that we would do a show, send the tape to them and they'd send the checks. They never interfered. We hardly ever saw them. The first day I went to work, I parked next to Ted Knight and he was the only other person doing first run syndication on a show called Too Close for Comfort.

• 1:14:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  And I looked at that parking space and I loved him on Mary Tyler Moore. I thought, well, if Ted can do it, we can do it.

• 1:14:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  And oh my God, we had so much fun. It was so fun. I took a lot of the staff with me from the Burnett show. So it was really comfortable.

• 1:15:09Billy Corgan?

  Did you have more control over the show at that point?

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Well, we did two shows with the original writers and they were still writing Eunice's family. Mama was still really mean and it just didn't feel comfortable at all. So I'm the one who pulled the plug and said, I need Harvey. I need my teacher.

• 1:15:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  And Harvey came in and he said, she's got to be a sitcom star now. She's, people aren't going to come home and put their feet up and pop a beer and watch a woman yell at people for half an hour.

• 1:15:41Billy Corgan?

  25 minutes. Yeah.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he said, she's got to be a sitcom. She's got to laugh. She's got to do silly stuff. And I said to Harvey, I don't think she's ever smiled. He said, but she is you. You are Mama. And anything Mama can, anything you can do, Mama can do. And he was sort of responsible for setting her free, I think.

• 1:16:02Billy Corgan?

  I see. This might be too like a, like a method actor question, but in order to be so effective at a character, there's got to be some part of you that sort of identifies with Mama's sort of.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  And I think I have more of that edgy kind of sarcastic sense of humor than Carol does. And I think that's why the roles ended up the way they do.

• 1:16:22Billy Corgan?

  I see. I see.

• 1:16:27Billy Corgan?

  When you, when you two, when you two are as Mama these days, I mean, are you doing more topical humor and stuff like that? I watched a couple of clips.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:34Billy Corgan?

  I saw you making fun of our current president somewhere.

• 1:16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I, well, when I put the show together, I knew that Mama had to be a huge part of it.

• 1:16:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  So I said to my writing partner, I do not want this to be retrospective. I want to push her into the new century and let her deal with all the crap that's going on in the world. And it just keeps getting crappier. So there's plenty of stuff to talk about.

• 1:16:59Billy Corgan?

  There's plenty to talk about.

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  And the fun thing is that that old lady can get away with anything.

• 1:17:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  If I said the stuff that Mama says, I'd be in big trouble. But you know, it's Mama. She's a crazy old lady.

• 1:17:13Billy Corgan?

  I haven't seen this, but somebody was raving to me about you being in this Menendez Brothers sort of docudrama.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Billy Corgan?

  And they said it took him a hot second even recognize that it was you because it was a sort of dramatic thing. Are you, are you sort of, where are you at in terms of wanting to work, not work? You know what I mean?

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  Well, I'd love to work and I'd love not to always be Mama forever. I know how much people love her, but.

• 1:17:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  I would love to play like a villain in another.

• 1:17:45Billy Corgan?

  You'd make a great villain.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  Series. Yeah. I think it'd be fun.

• 1:17:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, thank you so much. Hope you had a good time.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Thank you. That was quick and easy. I'm not like going to the dentist at all.

• 1:17:57Billy Corgan?

  Well, Chuck's going to the dentist later.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  Oh, well, I'm sorry about that.

• 1:18:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Thanks so much. Thank you.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:18:09Speaker 07

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