Can You Talk About the Cats in Greece? Another Q&A

Liv answers more listener questions, from cats in both modern and ancient Greece to Hera's attempted coup and everything in between. CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:35Speaker 01

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• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, who was gonna come up with something quippy to say, but it's too much of a spoiler for the first question I'm gonna answer today. We're not cutting out that sound, cuz that's part of it, too. So I'm just Liv, your host, here with more answers to your questions, cuz I am incredibly long-winded, and you guys had so many questions, and it's December, and I haven't been back into a realm where I can write a whole script, so I am thrilled that I can just answer more of your questions, not least because actually this question we're gonna start with today

• 2:51Liv Albert?

  is one of the ones I noticed like ages ago when it came in, and I have been really excited to answer it. So, honestly, without further ado, more updates to come when I have put my brain back together post-move. For now, let's get right into more of your fascinating questions.

• 3:28Liv Albert?

  Can you talk about the cats in Greece? Another Q&A.

• 3:49Liv Albert?

  Can I talk about the cats in Greece? Well, truly, when I started recording this, I had the squirmy worm that is my recently adopted Greek kitten.

• 4:03Liv Albert?

  Uh, in my lap. So it seemed like the absolutely perfect place to start today's Q and A episode. And I think there's another question about cats. I'm going to try to find it to make sure that I answer them both. Um, because cats in Greece, they go along pretty hand in hand these days, but they didn't always. So we'll get into it. First up, this question is from Tamara, who says, can you talk about the cats in Greece? It seems like they're everywhere. As someone who is a, my cats are only allowed to go outside on in their catio and nowhere else person. I hope the roaming Greece cats are well taken care of. Love the show and all the work you put into it. Thank you. And thank you for giving me an opportunity to talk about my new Greek kitten.

• 4:44Liv Albert?

  His name is Anchovy, or Gavros in Greek. Because, well, I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole story. So why don't I tell you all about the cats in Greece while also talking about my new little ridiculous kitten who just got neutered and so is walking around with a little cone on his head, but it still has all of the energy that I have ever seen in a living animal in my life. So cats in Greece, they are incredibly common. Um, it is, I mean, I, I won't pretend like it's this big magical wonderland of cats everywhere. It obviously is a problem both for the cats and the people. But by and large, from my experience, the people of Greece really make

• 5:25Liv Albert?

  the most out of this problem. And I think the cats really benefit. Uh, I haven't been anywhere else in Eastern Europe for a long time, so I can't say whether this is widespread, but I can with a good deal of confidence, talk about the cats in Greece specifically. Like I said, they're everywhere. And, and like, like this person noted, Tamara noted in their question, yes, no, they are, they are everywhere. Um, the, the cats in Greece are kind of a, a staple, really. Like they're such a huge part of visiting Greece. You can see all of those TikTok videos and things that go around, like, you know, what I expected from my Greek vacation versus what it was. And it's like, beautiful ruins and then cats. For me, when I go to Greece, it's definitely

• 6:10Liv Albert?

  both. Um, so it's a little bit of story time for now. From my experience personally with Greek street cats. So I mean, obviously I've been going there for a while. A couple of years ago, I found a group called Cats of Thissio. And they are a group who does really amazing charitable work with the cats in specifically the Thissio neighborhood in Athens. Now, if you're not catching that word, it is the modern Greek word for Theseus. So it's a little bit funny slash appropriate that that is sort of the neighborhood where I found a group to to really become an enormous fan of. And again, all the sounds in here, I'm not even going to try to re-record entirely because that is, I think, part of this question is, everything about that was

• 6:56Liv Albert?

  Anchovy trying to contribute to this episode while also being a squirmy worm that is a five-month-old kitten.

• 7:05Liv Albert?

  So Cats of Thissio do some really incredible work if you are looking for more on the street cats of Greece or looking to help in any way, I recommend you check them out. Thissio is spelled T-H-I-S-S-I-O. There's multiple ways of spelling it in English because it's a Greek word, but that's generally it. Cats of Thissio does some incredible work. Irini is sort of the main person associated with it, and she is awesome. And we met and she took me on a little tour of the cats in that neighborhood. And she knows them all so well. They all have beautiful names and they all, you know, come running when she comes out with her food and the water. And they take as really as good care of the street cats of that neighborhood as possible.

• 7:49Liv Albert?

  They they trap when they find one that is injured and they do their best to help. They trap, neuter and return as often as possible. Obviously, it is all about funding. They are a group that does it all based on essentially crowdfunding. So if you can and want to help, feel free. I give and I absolutely love the work that they do. So that's a really good example of what are pretty common in in Greece. I mean, certainly in the more populated areas where that can be feasible. But people really do, they really do care about the Cats, whether you know that care is shown in the form of them doing that kind of charitable work where they're like actively, you know, trapping and neutering and and keeping the

• 8:33Liv Albert?

  problem from getting worse and and ensuring that the cats that are there live as comfortable and happier life as they can, or just the people who live around there and put out food and water, because that is also incredibly common. People by and large, in my experience, really do want to to care for the cats in their neighborhood. It's really nice. And you know, it obviously is still not an ideal situation for, you know, the cats, the people, the birds, everything else. But at the same time, like in terms of something that is already a problem, the people really do, I think, make make the most out of it and do the work as that they can as much as possible. So the cats, by and large, for the most part, you're going to find that they're they're pretty

• 9:16Liv Albert?

  well taken care for. The thing of about cats, obviously, is that they are incredibly independent. They're not like dogs. To me, I like to phrase like dogs need people, cats like tolerate people. Cats often enjoy people, absolutely. But like dogs really like need people at this point. Cats are like not so domesticated that they can't, for the most part, handle it all themselves. And we respect them for that. But they do get help from the humans wherever possible. And it's generally pretty nice. Now, my little Anchovy, you're gonna get the little story time because he is perfect and precious. And I think I mentioned in the last Q and A, but you can check the Instagram if you want to see a picture, because again, he's perfect and precious. But

• 9:56Liv Albert?

  story time is that I went to Naxos last June before the group trip with a good friend of mine. And she and I stayed at this place where there were these two cats who we bonded with immediately. Like, literally, we went to this place, we got our stuff settled, and then we went out for lunch, we brought Back a little bit of leftovers and these two cats just showed up and like never left. I mean, obviously, we also gave them leftovers and one of those cats, uh, was the first one we met, we fed him anchovies, uh, leftovers and named him Anchovy. It just seemed like a cute name and this cat was so precious, little tuxedo, kind of a medium hair. Honestly, beautiful cat, just the loveliest.

• 10:37Liv Albert?

  Within five minutes of meeting him, he was like on my lap, just lying down like, hi, this is where I am now. Thank you. Uh, and then the other cat, who was clearly the bonded pair, she's this little black one and she was super pregnant at the time. We named her Sardine purely because it went with Anchovy and it was just flipping adorable and these cats were inseparable. They were with us all of the time. We ended up getting hit with this like absolutely wild heatwave where it was like 44 degrees in June. Absolutely abnormal, even for Greece and there was this period where the cats just slept outside of our door because it was shady and cool. They slept there for like two days straight. We gave them food and water and they just didn't leave. It was so cute and one of them was like, like I said,

• 11:19Liv Albert?

  really pregnant. She was this tiny little black gal, oh, just bopping all around. She loves to climb, truly the sweetest little girl. And then, you know, we also, we also befriended, uh, the man who owned the land there and, you know, who was renting us the space at the time. And so when the time came and little Sardine had her babies, well, he sent us pictures and videos and she had this litter of these four little black kittens and one gray. And it didn't take long. We were obsessed. And so, yes, we did go back for this kitten. I mean, lots of other life stuff happened, uh, in the in-between, but ultimately this friend and I ended up moving

• 12:04Liv Albert?

  to Toronto together, getting an apartment together and then bringing this Greek cat with us, uh, along with my other gal squid, who I adopted in the summer and she is also precious, but she is elusive, like squids tend to be. And by that, I mean, she's really anxious and we're getting her comfortable. But Anchovy, oh, he, he does not know the meaning of the word anxious. He is wild.

• 12:29Liv Albert?

  And and a great example of how kittens are often handled in Greece. Because the thing is, obviously, you know, a cat that has spent a large part of its life living on the streets of Greece and being vaguely, you know, cared for in that way that they tend to be, but also just like being out on their own and fending for themselves and getting, you know, cats create colonies for themselves or they or they, you know, become a part of existing colonies. Like cats really are these lovely little colony-packed animals. And so, um, you know, it's really not, by and large, it's not the the greatest for a cat who has been living that life to then be adopted and become a house cat because that's just not, you know, that that's a really big change for a cat that has grown

• 13:10Liv Albert?

  up with it. But kittens, obviously, are are an exception. And so in this case, you know, we went back for this kitten and we got to experience how it's often handled. Now, we were on an island. It just happens to be that Naxos has quickly become my favorite island in loads of different ways. And that's where we got little Anchovi from. So, very specific island experience. Um, Naxos is a really lovely island. It's touristy, but it's not wildly touristy, still a lot of locals, and just generally, it's the best. Um, but don't tell anyone because we don't want it becoming not the best. But, in any case, so when we were there, uh, with the kitten, we were, um, we obviously had to take him to the vet

• 13:53Liv Albert?

  and we had to get some paperwork. And so my experience in how, you know, both people, like the guy who owned the land, he was so happy for us to take one. He was like, just absolutely like, yep, no, come here, uh, take one of the kittens, you know, I'll do what I need to do to help you do that. And so we, you know, we needed rabies vaccination. That's what you need to get, um, one into Canada. And so we're looking into that. So we take him to this vet. The vet, uh, ends up chatting with the guy who owns the land because they are very, you know, they they really want to help people adopt kittens and give them a better life, but they also want to ensure that tourists aren't out there like picking up a kitten that is absolutely not, you know, up for being adopted and brought back somewhere. So they're really conscious of lots of different things. So the vet had

• 14:35Liv Albert?

  a whole chat, um, with the owner of the land and ensured that like, yes, you know, he knew us, he trusted us to take this kitten, that was all fine. And then, once that was handled, we brought this kitten in, they give him They give him, you know, the shots that he needed, including the rabies vaccination and a microchip. They did it all and they charged us like, I mean, compared to Canada, like almost nothing. It was so great and they were just so keen to help us. They filled out this whole little, like, we had to get him an EU passport. Like, really, we just need the rabies vax, but in the EU, that comes in the form of this little passport. So he has this little blue EU passport that's like half Greek and half English and it's flipping precious. And they were just so keen,

• 15:18Liv Albert?

  like, they sat with us. We just, like, sat in this vet's office. He looked like a mountain man who was also, you know, just, uh, uh, just, oh, he was, he was so great. He barely spoke any English, but his, um, one of his, the, the tech that worked with him, she, her English was great and we were going back and forth chatting all about this. She absolutely loved his name, Anchovy, in Greek, you know. Um, but then, of course, then I say it's gavros and then I get a good laugh out of Greek people, which I absolutely love. Um, they give us all of this. This vet has this big old dog who is just hanging out this entire time. He, the vet looks like Indiana Jones, you know, if, if he let his hair go wild and kind of had an Einstein vibe. This, it was just the

• 15:59Liv Albert?

  most wonderful experience. Everyone was so lovely and they just wanted to help us take this kitten home to a new life in Canada. Uh, and also I have to tell you that the reason I mentioned that there was a big old dog there at the vet, because it was the vet's dog, he looked like, I don't even know, like, big and fluffy, like, so hot for Greece, but such a precious guy and his name was Odysseus, or Odie. I nearly died. The people were like, well, you are reacting in a bizarre way to the, this dog's name. And I was like, no, it's so great. It's a sign. Uh, anyway, it was just such a great experience. And that's ju, that's my experience on, you know, Greek people who want to help the animals. They love the animals. They want to give them a better life where possible, but they also ensure that that's an actual thing that's going to happen

• 16:42Liv Albert?

  and not just like somebody picking up a cat off the street and like wanting to take it home, because that's not necessarily going to result in a better life for the cat. So all that is to say is a super long way of answering this question, but I am so passionate with the cats in Greece and my little anchovy is like this precious weird Little guy and he's such a perfect example of how it goes and in my experience with the cats there. So generally cats in Greece, I think, are by and large taken care of by the the people who live around them, by the neighbors or by groups that are trying to do like bigger good like cats of the Seo and lots of other things. But in my experience, they're very much appreciated. Like you go to a lot of restaurants and like the people working there are not shooing the cats away.

• 17:27Liv Albert?

  Like the cats get fed at the restaurant. Like that's just the way it is. It makes me think in North America, like people are always, you know, like, oh, that would be, you know, the the cat would get shooed away as if like it was doing something wrong, just like existing in the space in which it naturally lives. And over there, it's like, oh, no, this is just the way of life. Like if the people want to feed it, great. Otherwise, like they're just, they're just around and like, nobody is out being an asshole to them for no reason. And it's really, it's nice. I don't want to pretend like that is the case everywhere all the time, obviously. But in my experience, for the most part, it's pretty nice for the cats, you know, as far as it goes to to be a street cat. It's a, it's, it's not a too bad life for them, which is lovely and adorable.

• 18:12Speaker 03

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• 18:51Speaker 03

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• 19:34Speaker 03

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• 19:57Speaker 01

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• 21:23Liv Albert?

  This next question is from Francesca who says, "Hi, I'd love to know your opinion on how colonialist and Christian ideas transformed female deities and their roles in society. You hear a lot of goddesses being under an umbrella of fertility, birth, etc. When is this the true ancient Greek meaning and when is it a Western religious coverall? Hope this makes sense. This is in relation to Artemis, Persephone, and Hera. Thanks. Love the show." Thank you, Francesca. This does make sense and it's a good question. I would say like 50/50. Like, I mean, it's so interesting because fertility is like kind of a running joke with, you know, a certain level of classicists now, like those

• 22:06Liv Albert?

  of us who are, you know, a little bit more critical of the patriarchal ideals, because it's sort of a running thing where some certain types of like artifacts or characters, names, things like that, if like, there's any kind of thing that somebody could latch on to and call it fertility, like often they will. Whether or not there really is any kind of contextual grounding for that, that comes mostly in artifacts, which I just find to be hilarious, but it's still pretty relevant. When it comes to the goddesses, like, it's tough. I mean, fertility, the thing about, let's, first, let's talk about the term fertility,

• 22:43Liv Albert?

  because it has this connotation now that is definitely coming from that Western Judeo-Christian like ideals that we exist in, but at the same time, it still has a truth and an accuracy in the ancient world. Because think about, I think the best way of thinking about this is to think about fertility in a broader form, like fertility outside of the patriarchy, which is giving of life, right? This creation of life, there is fertility in the earth.

• 23:20Liv Albert?

  Soil grows and there is fertility like i- i- it's just in that that notion of creating and giving life to nature. And so when you think of it that way, Artemis, Persephone, Hera, absolutely fertility fertility deities. I would say less so Hera, I would I would instead pop in Demeter there. Hera is, um, you know, obviously she is a goddess of marriage and birth and things, but a little bit less in my understanding on that specifically fertility side. But Artemis, Persephone, Hera, like they are giving of life in that very distinct way that is inextricably

• 23:59Liv Albert?

  tied from womanhood and just, you know, the the ability to create life, whether or not that is in the form of a woman, but that ability to create life. Um, and so like these goddesses and and more, obviously, are absolutely tied to that notion of fertility. But then that kind of gets lost over time and it really does get like sort of packed down into this notion of patriarchal fertility. And that's where you get this like the level of ick, right? In with say Persephone, um, and and Demeter as well, and and also, I mean, countless other goddesses that I can't

• 24:40Liv Albert?

  quite think of. But like that level of like that that sort of pushing fertility into it just being this one level of like, uh, human bodies creating babies. Like it fertility really truly is so much more than that. As a woman with a functioning uterus who will literally never have a baby, even if it killed me, like I, you know, we can be fertile without it being like this thing of like creating a baby for the patriarchy nonsense, right? Like it Persephone is a fertility goddess because she represents the spring and and the fertility of the earth and and growing life

• 25:24Liv Albert?

  within the earth. But in the general canon of Greek mythology, she never has a child. So she is Fertility goddess without having children. She's a great example of that. Artemis, I would say little less so because she's not so much a fertility goddess, but she is a goddess of birth. But in that case, that is coming from the very, very like meaningful story where she helps give birth to her own twin brother. And so that is definitely based in the ancient Greek of it all as well. But there are definitely connotations that have come later that link it more to that Judeo-Christian fertility nature of like giving life for a man rather than just giving life, I guess.

• 26:09Liv Albert?

  It's a really interesting question though, because you know, the, the, these goddesses are inextricably tied to those things. But over the millennia and centuries, like we have sort of, we've made those things less important. And so they seem, these goddesses seem like, oh, they're just being relegated to like fertility birth goddesses, like typical woman things, because we have made that fertility less important. We have made it something that men can just utilize, something that men control, right? And so it, it, it has become less, but it's still in its core, you know, is this incredibly powerful,

• 26:52Liv Albert?

  incredibly powerful thing. At its core, it is giving these goddesses this ability to control life and death with Persephone so specifically, but Demeter as well, right? The entire story of the Homeric hymn to Demeter is this search for her daughter and how Demeter, in her grief in motherhood and this loss of her daughter, how she, she retracts the fertility of the earth. She takes that away because she does control it to that degree. And so it is this incredibly powerful thing. I mean, there is a reason why Gaia is the first, you know, kind of physically embodied

• 27:36Liv Albert?

  thing. She is the earth, the giver of all life. And then she is covered over by a man, right? There are all of these stories about These goddesses having this life-giving, vital, like, really, just the most powerful thing on the planet, they have this life-giving ability within them. And then there are all of these examples of the ways in which the gods sort of subjugate that and they press it down and down. And, you know, I would say over the hundreds of years of the development of Greek mythology and the general religious practices of ancient Greece, you know, the women started out really, really powerful and they're just slowly kind of less and

• 28:21Liv Albert?

  less, both literally and figuratively. But then, yeah, I mean, then Christianity comes along. And to me, the thing that Christianity fucked with i- in the most detrimental way is the notion of virginity. And of course, that is also inextricably tied to fertility. But it's just that way that it made, Christianity made virginity this thing for men to control, this thing that like is about men. Whereas, you know, the word virgin in Greek is, it's Parthenos. It's where we get the word Parthenon. Like, it is this, it just, I mean, ultimately,

• 29:01Liv Albert?

  it meant unmarried and childless. It did not mean this like notion of, of, of like, like, it didn't mean the Virgin Mary of it all, right? This idea that she could be pregnant without having ever had sex. It was just this notion of unmarried and childless. And so, I mean, I would think like, I mean, if Mary was a Greek, a character in Greek mythology, she would not be Parthenos because she had a baby. It has nothing to do with like penetration or some nasty concept of a hymen. Like, it is just about the nature of having a child. I don't know the biblical story because I don't particularly care, but like, I would

• 29:45Liv Albert?

  imagine if like Joseph's her husband or something, right? Like, that would also make her not a Parthenos, like, even if they hadn't fucked. Because in Greek, it wasn't, I mean, I imagine there, I could be, I could be wrong. And there could be instances where that is more important, but by and large, it's it's really more about the sort of status of the woman, right? Like Athena is a Parthenos. She is a virgin, but it is not about how she has never been penetrated. It is about the fact that she is this powerful goddess who does not have a husband and does not have a child. The same applies to Artemis. It it there is no like, there is no text source that's like Athena is a virgin because no one ever penetrated her like absolutely not.

• 30:29Liv Albert?

  There is that that does not exist. That's not the notion of virginity. Um, it goes right back to my, I mean, not, that's not to say that the that the ancient Greeks didn't care about penetration. Boy, did they? But it wasn't tied to that kind of purity in the same way that it is under the Christian Bible and religion broadly and then the Christian West. It it isn't the same thing. And so the very long-winded again, because all of my answers are long-winded. Um, the answer is it it really, it did affect it, but there is very much still this underlying notion of like, these are fertility goddesses. Absolutely. And we shouldn't take that away from them. The problem is that the concept of fertility has been lessened.

• 31:15Liv Albert?

  It's not that they, you know, aren't as powerful and therefore are relegated to fertility goddesses. It's that the concept of fertility has lost its importance under that Christian umbrella. Because the the notion of fertility is really about the life-giving nature of all of existence. And that's why there are so many fertility goddesses, because it is all about the fertility of everything and and any kind of life-giving creation is coming from this this fertility goddess. I hope that makes sense. This is a little rambly. Um, I'm still getting back into like phrasing things like I would normally on the show. It has been a wild couple of weeks. Um, but that was a great question. Thank you.

• 32:13Liv Albert?

  All right, this next one comes from Selma, who said, "Hi Liv, in your Atlantis series," which I really loved listening to, "you talked a little about the eruption of Thera/Santorini. I was wondering if you could tell us more about it and about the site of Accretiri, or maybe recommend a book about the topic. Love your podcast." Thank you, Selma. Okay, so I don't have a book to recommend on Thera or Accretiri. I wish I did. So if anyone has any recommendations and you're listening on Spotify, put them in the comments and I can maybe share it somewhere, or generally it will just live there. Because I would love to know about books about this as well, but I imagine there isn't, I mean, there is a lot, but it's all probably really heavy archaeological stuff,

• 32:57Liv Albert?

  because we, the thing about Accretiri, and I will get more into it, it's all just prehistoric, right? And I don't mean prehistoric like dinosaurs roaming the earth. I mean, prehistoric in the way that like, writing does not survive from that time period. So there is no historical record. And so we, it's a lot of, it's all about the archaeological record and material evidence, and that often ends up with like, I would say, like, drier sources, unfortunately, because like, there is no, there is no written, written source to, that talks about it at all. So that's what makes it very different from Pompeii.

• 33:38Liv Albert?

  Right? Because, okay, I'm getting ahead of myself. So Thera, which was, is/was, so Santorini/Thera, it's still the, the modern name, only often pronounced "Thera," like with an F, is still the, the name for Santorini. It confuses a lot of tourists. But broadly, the, you know, the more ancient name is definitely Thera. And so-

• 34:05Liv Albert?

  Pre 17th century BCE, right? So we're talking almost 4,000 years ago. Um, before that, the island was one ru- round-ish island, presumably round-ish, based on what it is now. Um, if you look up Santorini now, it's this cool kind of like opposite, like it's, it's like a half moon shape. Um, and then there's this little island off to the side that's called Thrasia. And so essentially it's like this, this big island was a volcano. And in the 17th century, it erupted and created the two little islands

• 34:50Liv Albert?

  that are left and which are now Santorini. Now it's Thera and Thrasia just means like little Thera, which is adorable. Um, but essentially like that's what we have now. But the reason why we don't have quite as much information about it is just because it happened so long ago that it, you know, the, the record doesn't exist. Whereas the more famous Pompeii is happening, you know, 1600, 1700 years later. And so people are actively writing about it and we have all of this historical record. So because of that, Accretiri and the eruption of Thera is just a considerably less famous and less well-known, but to me, so much more interesting. Now Pompeii is incredible.

• 35:35Liv Albert?

  I went for the first time last year, so I won't pretend like it's not the most amazing thing because what makes Pompeii special is so much was preserved. Now what makes Accretiri special is that a lot is also preserved. It's just that the preservation of something from the Bronze Age versus something from, you know, the first century CE, it's a lot different of what we have left. But Accretiri is like this mini considerably older version of Pompeii. It's this town that was.

• 36:03Liv Albert?

  Preserved by the volcanic eruption and so you know even today you can visit and it is what exists there now it's you know it's completely covered over and everything because it is so so fragile due to its age and the construction of the time and and all of that because we're we're talking about this incredibly early time period. Now on Thera at the time they were Minoan people so they were connected with Crete to the south. They have a lot of very similar wall paintings and art like that compared to what we find on Crete from the Minoan people. But Akrotiri because of the eruption just has so much more preserved. So the the wall paintings,

• 36:47Liv Albert?

  the wall paintings are life-changing. Just Google the wall paintings of Akrotiri. They are for the most part still located in on Santorini in modern Thera at the Archaeological Museum and I went for the first time a couple of years ago and truly like I don't I can't even put into words those wall paintings. They are utterly incredible. The the art that they showcase from almost 4,000 years ago is just inconceivable. It's really, really incredible. There are a couple preserved wall paintings that are in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens.

• 37:28Liv Albert?

  So anyone who has visited that, you might remember those as well. Really, it's just, it's unbelievable. So I don't, I don't know quite enough about the history itself, but I'm just, I know that I am utterly obsessed with what that eruption preserved. And so yeah, I highly recommend anyone look into it further. Again, I don't have a book recommendation, but I do recommend you just like Google your little heart out about Google Santorini, Google Ak- well, Googling Santorini is going to get you a ton of other stuff. Google Akrotiri and the wall paintings there and just, just fill your heart just like full, full of joy.

• 38:21Liv Albert?

  This next question is from Josh and he says, "I started listening to your podcast when a friend of mine recommended it to me in college. Fast forward four years later and now it is an integral part of my life. Liv, you have no idea how much you have taught me, not only about mythology, but about life itself." Oh, that's really nice. "Navigating the world as a 20 to 30 something year old is hard, but you always push me to follow my dreams, just like you have..." Okay, you're gonna make me cry. Okay. Okay, my question is about music. I love music and I was wondering if you had given Epic the Musical. I read all of that and I'm sorry, I feel like I've already answered this, but you, I had, I read such a nice message, but just to, I'm gonna pull it back because otherwise I'm gonna ramble about everyone else's questions. But unfortunately, no,

• 39:02Liv Albert?

  I have not listened to Epic the Musical. I hear it's great. I'm so glad it exists. I'm not a musical gal when I don't have something to watch because ADHD attention span, but I do know all about it and it seems really awesome and I'm so glad that everyone seems to really enjoy it. And thank you, Josh, for that question and all the ridiculously nice things. I have trouble hearing that level of compliments, but also it means the entire world. So, thank you.

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• 41:04Liv Albert?

  My next, the next question is from AVO. I don't know how to pronounce it, but thank you. Who's your favorite witch, Medea or Circe? Medea. Because she took witchcraft to a whole other level. And to me, she is like, she's a witch who made herself the witch she was. Whereas Circe was a little bit more born into it. There's nothing wrong with that. Nepotism is fine. No, it's fine. Circe is not an Eppo baby. I'm going to say that clearly. No, except when she is, but then so was Medea. Anyway, it's fine. That's called being divine. But no, I really enjoy Medea, not least just because we have more of her story. Circe's story really only exists in the Odyssey. And while it's incredibly fun and interesting, Medea's just is, there's so much more to dig

• 41:49Liv Albert?

  your hands into. And I do love, I do love an angry woman.

• 42:07Liv Albert?

  Next question is from May, and I don't have a great answer, so it's going to be quick, but I'm glad you asked it. They said, you've talked about guests or talked to guests about the difference between Euripidean and Sophoclean protagonists in Greek tragedy. Do you know enough about Isicles's dramatic style to differentiate between his protagonists and those of the other two surviving tragedians? If so, can you share what makes his style unique? I would say no, but not least because I'm just so obsessed with Euripides and I'm like really bad at learning about the other ones, but I have been thinking more and more about returning to some of Aeschylus's work, uh, because I am, I'm very interested in, in digging into, to more about more of, of his work and also yeah, picking apart, uh, him versus the other tragedians.

• 42:50Liv Albert?

  So you can expect to see more in the future. Uh, but in the meantime, no, not really because I'm too busy loving Euripides.

• 42:59Liv Albert?

  Okay. Uh, I have to skip a question from Doris. It's not because your question isn't great. It's only because it's long and I'm trying to get through a few, but I'm going to try to go back to it, uh, sometime. Um, cause thank you. And also I will just, we're going to say just based on your PS at the end, um, just, we're going to read the, this is me rambling, uh, listeners, I'm going to read just the PS from Doris and she says, "In a previous episode, you talked about the origin of names, so a bit about mine. My parents chose it because of the connection to the name Dorothea, which means gift from God. I'm aware that Doris is Greek in origin, but accept that she's an oceanid and mother of the 50 Nereids, from which I assume the meaning of gift or bounty comes. I don't know anything else about it."

• 43:43Liv Albert?

  Um, that is what she, that, that is essentially all there is to know about Doris. So you've done incredible work. Um, but it, I mean, I think that that, while that is all there is to know about her, it really is still, uh, important to emphasize that, yeah, you're exactly right. Like she may not have stories or anything, but in terms of this kind of nearly primordial deity of the sea, like she was meant to be, yeah, like incredibly procreative, like incredibly a, a, a very much a fertility goddess, as we were talking about earlier, right? This, this gift of life. Um, yeah. Mother of the, the 50 Nereids, this, this Titan, uh, goddess who formed so much of the sea, even though we don't have, uh, much in the way of stories

• 44:26Liv Albert?

  about her. Um, and that is, that is all I know as well, but I just wanted to emphasize that. And I hope, uh, to get back to your questions. Um, it, it, it's to the listeners, it's just about the life of a priestess, uh, or- Of a god or goddess and I don't, I don't know an answer to it. And so I want to get back to it when I have more of an answer. So thank you. And then this next one is coming from Imogen, who says, would you ever consider doing an episode about Lord Byron? I think he's a really interesting guy and I also live in his hometown. I know it's historical and not mythological and also not ancient at all, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about him and his effect on Greece. I would love to, I don't, I would love to speak to someone about Byron and Greece because when I'm over there, like

• 45:11Liv Albert?

  it, it's so clear how valued he is. And it's really interesting to me. I know that he like fought for Greece. In one of their, it might've been the War of Independence for Greece. Because he loved it so much there despite, you know, not being Greek himself, but he, he kind of became this like this sort of, you know, local hero of the Greeks because of his dedication to the country, particularly when they were fighting for their independence from the Ottomans. So I've always been really interested in looking into more, you know, his name is, is all over the place in Athens. So specifically,

• 45:52Liv Albert?

  there's, you know, hotels named for him and streets and all of these, there's a, a big statue, I believe. And I, I did though, I will say that at the, the Temple of Sunion, which is in the, the southern tip of Attica. So it's like an hour and a half, two hours ish from Athens. It is this Temple of Poseidon right on the cliffside overlooking the sea. It's an incredible, incredible temple. So I recommend anyone visit, but one of the fun little things you learn when you visit there is that Byron actually like scrawled his name on one of the columns. This was really common back then. It's very much like, oh my God, the horror now.

• 46:32Liv Albert?

  But even up to a couple of hundred years ago, it was pretty common to just still inscribe names on, on things like that. Even like, you know, national monuments i- in that way. But it's really interesting to sort of see that historical record of, you know, for all, it's like, oh, you've kind of defaced. Temple, I find it to be a really an interesting record of, you know, the, the 2,400 years, 2,500 years between when the temple was built and now and, and kind of looking at, you know, it, it, we don't want to forget that time period and, and kind of everything that happened it to in between and, and knowing that like his name, you know, and, and so many others are inscribed on a temple like that. I think is a really interesting way of looking at the

• 47:16Liv Albert?

  everything in between. Also, at the time, the last time I was there, I was really proud of my camera's zoom in ability because I was able to actually find his name on a column, even though obviously you can't get close to them now. Um, so yeah, there's, I mean, Byron, Byron and Greece are so intertwined. I definitely want, want to learn more myself. So whenever I do, I'll certainly share it all with you guys.

• 47:49Liv Albert?

  This is one of the other questions I was looking for. Um, so this one comes from Rachel in Olympia. I'm assuming Olympia, Washington, but maybe Greece. Let me know if I'm wrong. She says, what do we know about the relationship between humans and cats in the Hellenic world? Maybe a particular deity or festival associated with them. People were clearly sentimental about their pets and obviously cared about their livestock, but I want to know where cats fit in, especially given the Hellenic fascination with ancient Egypt. And everyone knows ancient Egypt literally worshipped cats. Thanks in advance for anything you could share. Okay, this is going to be only a vaguely disappointing answer because I think it's interesting enough that you shouldn't be disappointed. Cats were not, or rather I should

• 48:33Liv Albert?

  say domesticated or whatever form that is, like what we now would consider to be a domesticated house cat style, like whether, you know, feral or wild or otherwise, but you know, not a big cat. Um, were not brought to Greece until the Hellenistic period. Isn't that wild? So like, there were, they did not really have much of a concept of cats as we know them, um, up until that, that period. So we are talking, you know, the Hellenistic period, of course, comes after the classical period, which is where my knowledge falls away. Um, because the classical period is where all the playwrights are writing and all of the,

• 49:12Liv Albert?

  everyone who I know and love is classical and prior. So I don't know much about when cats were brought over. This is another thing. Ooh, actually, this is a, this is me having a thought into the microphone and I'm not going to edit it. Um, Mikhail and I were just talking about doing a big series on the Hellenistic period because we haven't talked about it that much. And now I am going to tell her, we have to, we have to find as much as we can about when cats were introduced to Greece. So, thank you. Um, but no, so yeah, the Egyptians, you're quite right. I mean, the Egyptians did worship cats. They were very big. And so I imagine that is how cats did eventually get to Greece, but broadly, they, they did not have cats as we

• 49:57Liv Albert?

  know them. They had big cats, you know, that's why there's lions in, in multiple myths and things like that, but they did not have, you know, our version of cats. I don't know what to call them because they're not technically house cats and they're also not feral because feral implies that they were once domesticated and then were no longer. So anyways, what we call, what do we think of as cats today? We're not brought over. Um, and, and so I think that's sort of interesting in itself. So that's all to say, there, there are no deities associated with cats in the broader Greek mythology because there were no cats. Isn't that wild? Um, and so I imagine they went over to Egypt and they were like, wow, these animals, the Egyptians love them. Like eventually we gotta get them over to Greece. It just took a while. Um, yeah.

• 50:42Liv Albert?

  So, so that's the slightly disappointing, but equally fascinating answer. And I hope to have more for you soon on when they did come to Greece. Now there still wouldn't have been, you know, any explicitly Greek deities associated with them because by the Hellenistic period, they're really done creating. And and you know, imagining new deities, they likely were, you know, would have instead sort of taken on the Egyptian worship, or in some way Egyptian associations and and kind of Hellenized it, but they wouldn't have had their own. But at the same time, like, I don't know of any kind of references to to Bastet, the the Egyptian god of of cats. I don't know of any kind of references in Greece either. So I would love to know more.

• 51:26Liv Albert?

  Hopefully you can stay tuned for more on cats in Greece and just cats broadly. We can talk about cats as much as possible.

• 51:46Liv Albert?

  All right. This next question comes from Kai, and he says, first up, love the show, and you're fully responsible for me starting a new special interest. Yay, neurodiversity. That was in the message, but I agree. Yay, neurodiversity. Yay, special obsessive interests. I'm going to Rome next August. Pray for me in the heat for four days. I'm so excited, but it's my first solo trip. Any advice for solo travel or Rome in general? Have a great day. Thank you, Kai. Okay, Rome. So I I went to Rome last winter, and I hadn't been since I was quite young. And by that, I mean, it turns out when you get old, quite young is like 20. But so I hadn't I hadn't been in ages, and I went for a few days last year.

• 52:30Liv Albert?

  And August should be interesting. I was there in January. So that was a much more comfortable temperature. But I would, I mean, Rome is so interesting. I mean, oh, here. Sorry, guys. This is where my brain's at right now. I will say the one thing that I learned in Rome the hard way is that so the the Colosseum, obviously, you should see the Colosseum, because you're not ridiculous. And why would you not go there? So go to the Colosseum. But

• 53:00Liv Albert?

  Buy in advance, book tickets to go beneath because like, I won't say recently, but it was, it had to have been like a decade ago. But the last time I had gone to Rome, you couldn't go down into the sort of, the kind of catacombs underneath, right? Like, so the, the floor is obviously gone. And so when you're, when you're in the Colosseum, you can just see the, the sort of hallways and walkways that were underneath the floor and which they used to transport, you know, gladiators and, and B.C. Arii and, and the, the animals themselves that they fought and anything else that they were messing around with in the Colosseum. And a while back, they, they allow, they, you know, preserved it in

• 53:44Liv Albert?

  a way where they were allowing people to go down there and actually like walk through parts of it, which is so cool. And so I was so excited because I had, the last time I'd been there was like, I don't even know how long ago, but you weren't able to. And so Jenny Williamson of Ancient History Fangirl, she and I were over there and we were like so pumped. And we go to the Colosseum and it just turns out you need a different ticket and those are like very limited. So you have to book them in advance and there's time periods and all of that. And that's so reasonable in hindsight because you're going like into this newly preserved area that is like obviously much more fragile and they're being really careful with it. So they're not just letting everyone who goes into the Colosseum go down there. So you need

• 54:27Liv Albert?

  to buy a different ticket and they sell out. So buy that in advance. Don't miss out like I did. And, and just so learn, learn from me there. And otherwise, you know, dedicate like a good old like day to the Colosseum and the forum and everything around there because there's just so much to see. The Capitoline Museum is underrated and very cool and it's very close to the, the Colosseum and all of that. It's yeah, very, very interesting museum to see. The Pantheon is also just utterly incredible. There's just so much, there's so many ruins to see in Rome. So it's kind of hard to, to fit it all in. So I would

• 55:10Liv Albert?

  say maybe do your research ahead of time and what you do want to see because Rome specifically, like you could be there for a week and see things all day, every day and still not see it all. So prioritize, I would say. But definitely like that Colosseum tip.

• 55:27Liv Albert?

  Learn from me and also enjoy and stay cool. It'll be, it'll be really fun. Um, as for a solo trip, because people ask me about that a lot and I, I, there are some questions that I've received that I did skip in here. I apologize. Um, questions about, you know, what to see in Greece and things. I always want to talk more about that. So maybe I'll be able to fit it into, to a future episode. Maybe I'll just do a whole episode about, you know, what to see or what I've seen over there. Um, it's just so hard to give, you know, uh, recommendations because it, it, it totally depends on, on what people want to see. Um, so you know, I, I won't dive into Greece.

• 56:06Liv Albert?

  Y- yet, like holding myself back from being like, but here are all the things I love. Um, but maybe that's for a future episode. In the meantime, solo travel, I love it. I really do love it. Um, you know, I am primarily traveling in Greece and I can say that I rarely if ever feel unsafe or concerned, like, you know, I'm also a person who's lived in a big cities a lot for many years. So I live with a certain level of like awareness and I think that's important. Um, but and this is not to say that anyone in my questions has suggested anything like this, but I, I feel like specifically North Americans, like

• 56:47Liv Albert?

  we have this bizarre idea that like, when we leave North America, we're like inherently unsafe and like somehow we need to like, you know, protect our, our wallets more, protect our money more and protect our passport, whatever, like all of these things that like, you should be doing generally, like anytime you travel and it doesn't matter like where you're going. You're not inherently less safe in Europe than you are in North America, like particularly not south of the border, like, you know, I feel a lot more safe in Greece than I do traveling in the States. Um, and, and so I just say like, don't like, leave your Western preconceptions behind, like this idea that North America is like this weird little bubble. I mean, we are a weird little bubble,

• 57:31Liv Albert?

  but like not in a good way, like traveling to Europe, especially on your own, like I think. It really opens up your mind to just like the rest of the world. And I think that's so important. It's, yeah, it's really fun, especially, I mean, Rome is really good. It's really accessible. You know, in terms of like getting to the airport and all around. And I love walking around a city like Rome. Or, you know, when I'm traveling in Greece, just walking and walking and kind of see what you can get or where you can get to. That did just leave me, lead me to another Roman tip, which is that there is a cat sanctuary amidst this one set of ruins. I'm gonna, I'm gonna forget what it's actually called.

• 58:16Liv Albert?

  But you can Google cat sanctuary ruins and you're gonna find it. But, and I'm forgetting what it's called because Jen and Jenny, again, of Ancient History Fangirl, just kept referring it to that Julius Caesar's cat sanctuary. Not what it's called, but it is generally in the area where he was killed. And so I understand why they call it that. But it does also mean that their phrasing then sticks in my head and I forget what things are actually called. But I do recommend checking that out because you get both some interesting Roman ruins and a cat sanctuary. And isn't that adorable?

• 58:51Liv Albert?

  Okay, we're on to the last question from Sky. And they said, "Do you think it's possible that the Zeus coup was written out of fear of the women? That the women would do the same to the men in charge? Because it kind of stands out next to the other myths and I can't explain why. This would support my theory that the women of the time would describe Hera very differently than the myths." Firstly, and most importantly, I agree with you 1,010% that the women of the time would describe Hera very differently from the myths. I think that they would describe everything very differently from the surviving sources that we have. Oh, Hera so specifically, yeah, so specifically.

• 59:35Liv Albert?

  I think Hera is one of the most fascinatingly, like...

• 59:41Liv Albert?

  I don't know how to describe it. I don't want to say damaged, but like just one of the characters who is most interesting to examine of like just how much of her character and her story is coming from the men instead of like literally anywhere else because she just feels like this caricature of a jealous wife, right? She feels like a woman written by a man in this really distinct way, like a lot of them do, but Hera, yeah. And the coup is so interesting too, because it is not, not at all a well-preserved story. Like it basically only survives as this,

• 1:00:22Liv Albert?

  just this little bit in the Iliad where it's like, it's really the story of Hera trying to take down Zeus of her, you know, essentially orchestrating a, what is ultimately a failed coup against Zeus. It really only survives as a kind of explanatory note for why Thetis is on Zeus's good side, because Thetis is the one who kind of rescues him, stops the coup. She brings in one of the Hecatonchires to save Zeus, essentially. And so it's this like, just this like kind of

• 1:01:00Liv Albert?

  explanatory note of like why Zeus owes Thetis and like why he then has to help her, you know, in her quest to save Achilles in the Iliad. And so it's a really interesting way to present this, this notion that is ultimately at its core, like incredibly subversive. This idea that, that the woman who is so famously like kind of Zeus's jealous, angry sidekick, who just is sort of along for the ride in his like terror show of a, of a rule, you know, it gives her this like incredibly important status of like she tried, she stood up against

• 1:01:43Liv Albert?

  him, she worked with the others, she collaborated and they really, there was, there was an attempted coup. And how interesting is that? And it, it seems to me that it's not, it's not unrelated that it doesn't survive elsewhere, that it isn't this like well-told story. It makes me think of Medusa as well, you know, the, these stories where women

• 1:02:09Liv Albert?

  You know, how really are a threat to to men and the patriarchal order. Those stories tend to either not survive or be slowly changed and manipulated over time so as to lose their essence. Like the Medusa, who is this like, you know, a snarling head who can turn everyone to stone and is just this like terrifying beast. Like that is a manipulation meant to ensure that that a woman who could defend herself against a man like is unrealistic, like as if they they don't want anyone imagining that that's possible. And so the the story is changed.

• 1:02:53Liv Albert?

  Or in the case of Hera, like it's it's not presented as this, you know, big feat. She she is rarely ever it's rarely ever referenced about her. It's not something that, you know, survives in any super strong or meaningful way. And because like, of course, because that that is a it is a threat to the ruling order to suggest that the wife of a man like Zeus could stand up to him and and try to to fight back against his tyranny, right? And I think I've been thinking about that more and more about, you know, when it comes to so many different stories and and just how much we might be able to kind of see

• 1:03:36Liv Albert?

  remnants of those decisions, whether they were, you know, conscious or otherwise, or or just this like this like vague, like the men were afraid. And so they kind of rewrote everything to ensure that women did not have this example to to go off of, right? I I think it applies to so many different stories and it's something where the more I think about it, the more I want to to sort of dive into that in a kind of more meaningful way. So I'm glad you mentioned that because it's I I rarely even think about that moment with with Hera because it is so minimal. It survives in such a such a like miniscule kind of way.

• 1:04:19Liv Albert?

  Really is not meant to be this important moment in the larger mythos. And why not? What does it say that it wasn't? And, and the same to me goes for Medusa, right? While her story, she is a character, survived, is so famous. But particularly her as a head, right? As a, as a weapon rather than a defense mechanism. And, and what does it say that the, the, the story of actually her being killed purely because she had the ability to divent herself against a man? Like that, that story barely, barely survives in any kind of meaningful way. And you know, what does that say about the storytellers?

• 1:04:59Liv Albert?

  And, and then also the people who had to make these conscious decisions to preserve these works over centuries and, and millennia even. Everything comes back to the patriarchy, really, everything. And I could talk about it forever, but I will not. I, but yeah, I mean, well, ultimately I will, but not today. This, this podcast will go on forever of just me just raging about all the different reasons why the patriarchy needs to be taken down from the inside, torn apart piece by piece. And with it, we will take capitalism. With it, we will take Western supremacy and we'll grind them into a dust.

• 1:05:44Liv Albert?

  Blow it into the wind. And then from what's left, we will build a world of equality where people actually get to elect their rulers and those rulers actually have to serve the people. Not the false, nonsensical form of democracy we have in the West now where we are led to believe that we elect our rulers and that they actually have to work for us. But in practice, that is laughable in 90% of cases. Now we're gonna just crumble all of that to dust and build something fresh and new and socialist as shit.

• 1:06:28Liv Albert?

  I've been having a time lately. This has been fun. Thank you all so much. Every once in a while, I like to give you just a particularly unhinged episode of ranting and raving because gods, it's fun, particularly when the world is on fire and we are just watching as the West is allowed to... I mean, just, I don't even know how to get into what's happening right now in the Middle East and just the way that the West is just allowed to kill and destroy cities and people with utter impunity because the propaganda has just

• 1:07:12Liv Albert?

  worked far too well. So anyway, um, I'll be back with more soon and together we'll take down the ruling Western order and the patriarchy with it. Let's talk about myths, baby, is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Panguish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my producer. She's utterly wonderful. Select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos. Listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Sign up for the newsletter, which I will send again soon and keep an eye out for ad-free subscription options. I am coming up with a lot of incredibly fun stuff.

• 1:07:57Liv Albert?

  It's all coming very soon. I've gotten merch made. I'm just waiting for it to arrive. We're gonna be handling everything in-house. Oh, we're gonna take down capitalism. I'll stop. I am Liv and I love this shit. Thank you all so much for coming along with me on this ride for however long you have been. Wow, it's been a time. I absolutely love that I can say all of this into a microphone and it actually gets across and I just have connected with so many people who think similarly because we all have eyes and souls and, you

• 1:08:35Liv Albert?

  know, free Palestine, hands off Lebanon, let the Syrian people actually get what the Syrian people want and not what the West wants and fuck settler colonialism, land back and down with Western supremacy.

• 1:08:54Liv Albert?

  Alright, again, I'm Liv and I love this shit.

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  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 1:11:08Speaker 05

  The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together, or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 1:11:21Speaker 04

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

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