The Microbiome Doctor: Doctors Were Wrong! The 3 Foods You Should Eat For Perfect Gut Health!

World-leading gut health expert PROFESSOR TIM SPECTOR reveals brand new research around why dementia, depression, and anxiety may start in the gut, how flossing lowers Alzheimer’s risk, and the TOP foods that stop inflammation! Professor Tim Spector is a medical doctor, Professor of Genetic Epidemiology at King’s College London, and co-founder of ZOE, a science-led nutrition company. He has been recognised as one of the top 1% of most-cited scientists worldwide, and is the author of bestselling books, including 'Ferment’. He explains: ◼️Why ultra-processed foods hijack your brain, mood, and behaviour ◼️The role of oral health and gum bacteria in brain inflammation ◼️Why most brain diseases share the same underlying risk factors ◼️The daily gut habits that improve focus, and cognitive resilience ◼️How poor sleep, stress, and late-night eating trigger brain fog and fatigue (00:00) Intro (02:38) Why My Mum No Longer Recognises Me (04:07) Is Dementia Becoming More Common—or Just Better Diagnosed? (05:07) The Hidden Dementia Types You Might Be at Risk For (07:43) How Your Gut Health Could Be Shaping Your Brain (11:18) What Your Diet Is Really Doing to Your Mood (14:09) Why You’re Craving Unhealthy Food—and How to Break the Cycle (14:45) Can Chronic Stress Increase Your Dementia Risk? (15:57) Could Vaccines Be Linked to Depression? (17:47) The Immune System’s Shocking Role in Brain Disorders (21:03) Does Parkinson’s Disease Begin in the Gut? (24:17) 8 Gut Health Rules That Can Transform Your Wellbeing (25:45) Is Coffee Actually Good for Your Gut? Here’s What We Know (30:24) Why You Should Eat 30 Different Plants Each Week (34:41) Prebiotics vs Probiotics: Which One Does Your Body Really Need? (39:17) How Flossing (or Not) Could Affect Your Risk of Dementia (40:30) What Our Belief in Science vs Religion Reveals About Us (45:56) Ads (47:57) Why Fermented Foods Are Crucial for Gut and Brain Health (55:58) Are You Eating the Wrong Kind of Protein? (56:54) This Matters More Than Counting Calories (58:14) The Hidden Dangers of Ultra-Processed Foods (01:01:34) What’s the Healthiest Bread You Can Actually Eat? (01:02:40) Are You Really Gluten-Free—Or Just Guessing? (01:05:01) What Most People Get Wrong About Nuts (01:08:12) What Fasting Does to Your Gut—and Why It Matters (01:10:03) Ads (01:11:55) The Keto Diet: What Condition It Could Actually Heal (01:16:15) Can a Keto Diet Still Support a Healthy Gut? (01:20:27) You Have Microplastics in Your Blood—Now What? (01:22:43) How GLP-1s Could Radically Change Your Health (01:25:35) Surprising Brain Benefits of Sauna Use (01:26:26) How Socialising Might Be Protecting Your Brain (01:30:43) Why Food Might Be the Most Powerful Medicine (01:32:07) How to Build a Better Relationship With Food Independent Research: https://stevenbartlett.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/DOAC-Tim-Spector-Independent-Research-further-reading-.pdf Follow Tim: Instagram - https://bit.ly/4jXTsPZ X - https://bit.ly/4qCNW88 ZOE YouTube - https://bit.ly/45tuXEt You can download Tim’s “How to eat in 2026” guide, full of practical tips, recipes and the science behind ZOE’s 8 nutrition principles, here: https://zoe.com/2026 You can purchase Tim’s book, ‘The Food For Life Cookbook: As seen on Channel 4's What Not To Eat’, here: https://amzn.to/3Zr1xDg Steven is an investor in ZOE. The Diary Of A CEO: ◼️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ◼️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ◼️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: LinkedIn Talent Solutions - https://linkedin.com/doac Wispr - Get 14 days of Wispr Flow for free at https://wisprflow.ai/DOAC Ketone - https://ketone.com/STEVEN for 30% off your subscription order

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Spector?

  Studies show that if you are flossing, you can reduce your risk of dementia by nearly half, which is quite impressive. So I started to research the brain much more. And it made me realise this link with the brain and the gut is absolutely crucial. And how that influences many things in our brain. For example, things like depression, mood changes, fatigue and energy. But for 40 years, we've been going down the wrong path. We've got so distracted by treating the brain as something so different to the rest of the body.

• 0:27Steven Bartlett?

  So what do we do about it if we want to have optimally healthy brains?

• 0:31Speaker 02

  So Professor Tim Spector is one of the top 100 most cited scientists worldwide.

• 0:37Steven Bartlett?

  And he's back to reveal the critical role our gut plays with our physical and mental health.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Our cognition and the prevention of chronic disease.

• 0:45Tim Spector?

  We can dramatically improve our lives and our health just by making the right food choices. And I've got eight rules for gut health, which work for all health. So first thing, pivot your protein. Then there's quality, not calories. The whole idea of assessing food by calories is wrong. Calorie restricted diets have been shown for the vast majority of people not to work. Your hunger signals go up and hunger is the main driver of obesity. And we'll get into the other rules.

• 1:12Steven Bartlett?

  And what about coffee?

• 1:13Tim Spector?

  So drinking between two and five cups of coffee reduces your risk of heart disease by about 25%.

• 1:19Steven Bartlett?

  And then what do you think of almonds?

• 1:20Tim Spector?

  So there's lots of studies showing they're good for your cognition and mood.

• 1:24Steven Bartlett?

  And what about your views on GLP-1s like ZMPag?

• 1:27Tim Spector?

  I think from a public health perspective, they're going to transform medicine. And we ought to be taking it much more seriously. But I've got two real worries about them. My first worry is that.

• 1:45Steven Bartlett?

  Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to. And we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about the show. Thank you.

• 2:32Steven Bartlett?

  Professor Tim Spector. Who is, um, who's this lovely lady? And how does she tie into the work you're focused on right now?

• 2:42Tim Spector?

  That's my lovely mum, June, who is still with us, aged 93. But for the last seven years has been in a, in a home in London after suffering a stroke and then developing dementia.

• 3:00Tim Spector?

  And so, um, yeah, that's, um, changed some of my views on life. And, um, she was really pro euthanasia and signed every paper possible that if this ever happened to her, you know, she would be able to end her life. But unfortunately, that didn't come true. And under UK law, it's not possible to, to help her in that because she lost capability and mobility very early. So she's still there, but she doesn't, no longer recognizes me. And, um, it's, it's a reminder of, you know, our potential

• 3:42Tim Spector?

  future life and how so many, so many people in it are going to end up with dementia. That wasn't the case 50 years ago. If I can do something to reverse this epidemic of dementia, then that's really motivating for me. And in a way, one reason why I've started to research the brain much more than I've done in the past.

• 4:07Steven Bartlett?

  So is dementia increasing? Or is it that we know of it more now? So we're better at diagnosing it?

• 4:16Tim Spector?

  It's increasing for a number of reasons. So some of it is the age demographic. So we're living longer, but we're not living healthier. So our... Health span hasn't really increased, but our lifespan has. We're good at keeping elderly people alive longer. That's definitely true, but there's also stats to show that it is increasing even when you take that into account. So that more people are developing dementia than ever before, even when you account for the demographics and those other changes. So it is a major worry, and I think it's one of the major fears that all of us have. You know, obviously you've got cancer as one fear, but I think the other really bad

• 5:01Tim Spector?

  one is ending up with dementia because nearly everyone knows somebody with dementia. Did this inspire you to go get your own brain scanned? Yes. I'd had, as you know, problems with my brain before. I'd had a mini stroke back in 2011 and never really worked out the causes of that. I knew I had some white spots in my brain. I wanted to see if they were still there, if there are any signs of that. And at the same time, I wanted to get a checkup to see was I likely to end up like my mother or not? And did I have the genetic form of the disease? Was it straightforward

• 5:43Tim Spector?

  Alzheimer's? Or was it more the vascular type that my mother had? Well, probably has. And so, yeah, partly it was motivated out of my medical curiosity and partly for self-interest. And what did you find? I went to this specialized clinic in London that does these dementia screens. So I know if I had the risk genes for Alzheimer's, which luckily I don't, but I do have bad genes for diabetes and heart disease.

• 6:18Tim Spector?

  Which predisposes you to the vascular side of things.

• 6:20Steven Bartlett?

  What's vascular dementia?

• 6:22Tim Spector?

  There's several types of dementia, but the two main ones are Alzheimer's, where you get these protein folds in the brain. You get local inflammation, these protein tangles, and that then causes these damage to the bits of the brain. That's a very specific type of dementia. Then you get more generalized dementia, which is usually called vascular dementia, where you're just getting clogging up of the arteries supplying the brain, just like you do in the heart. And that knocks off other bits of the brain in a slightly more random way than happens with Alzheimer's, slightly less predictable. But that accounts for about a third of all dementia is this vascular time.

• 7:08Tim Spector?

  I'm predisposed to it because after my, this weird episode in 2011, my blood pressure went up. So anyone with high blood pressure generally has slightly stiffer arteries than most people. And that impacts the arteries in your brain, so you are slightly more at risk. And with these diabetes genes that I've got, thanks to my grandmother, I am more at risk of vascular dementia. And so what I wanted to do was learn about that in order to optimize all the things I could do to postpone it or prevent it as much as possible.

• 7:44Steven Bartlett?

  Over the last five years or so, your interest in the brain has increased. What is the variance in your views of the brain now versus five years ago, before you started doing research and getting interested in it?

• 7:56Tim Spector?

  I think I saw the brain as a rather distinct organ that was the domain of psychiatry and perhaps gerontologists who look at dementia, that wasn't really part of the major picture and certainly wasn't within my domain of expertise. I think I still believe in this, the Cartesian view of the difference between the mind and the brain, the mind and the body. These two separate entities and you've got this barrier between them, this blood-brain barrier that was really like an iron curtain. So I was interested in it, but I didn't realise

• 8:37Tim Spector?

  this huge connection I've now discovered really that has really excited me. And I think the thing that triggered it was some of our own experiments, which happened a bit by chance. So when we started Zoe, we did a number of trials and we gave our participants apps so they could report how they felt. In every study we did, we started getting back these incredible results of people saying when they started the Zoe diet, for example, the first thing they noticed was their mood and energy improved and their hunger got less. And that was before any blood changes, before any gut changes. And so initially, we

• 9:22Tim Spector?

  slightly discounted it, but it happened in every study we did. We'd look to the menopause and again, the most dramatic change when people were improving their gut health through food with menopausal symptoms was on mood and energy. Because originally I'm a rheumatologist and was really interested in inflammation, I'd never put that connection between what was inflammation in the body and in your joints with what was going on in your brain. And suddenly, the latest science, when I'm going away and doing my reading, is making it all so much clearer. It's really become, you know, this new idea of things like depression,

• 10:05Tim Spector?

  things like mood changes, things like fatigue and energy, which I hadn't really thought about as, in a way, a malfunction of the brain, responding the wrong way to signals from the rest of the body. But it suddenly all comes into focus about how holistic the whole system is and how really the brain is just another organ. And this link with the gut is absolutely crucial because that's where it gets most of its information from. You know, we have this vagus nerve that goes from our gut to our brain, the longest nerve in the body, and eighty percent of the signals go gut to brain, only twenty percent go brain to gut.

• 10:47Tim Spector?

  So all these things together have just made me realise how important what going into our gut is, our diet is, and how that influences many things in our brain that I didn't put together before. And I don't think most, most of the medical world have put together before. And it, we've all put the brain on a pedestal, I should say, you know, we, we think it's this unique thing that's driving our bodies, but actually it's not, it's just responding to them, just like any other organ.

• 11:17Steven Bartlett?

  It made me reflect on the days that I've had like good and bad moods and how,

• 11:25Steven Bartlett?

  how much it's linked to my diet in the preceding couple of days, like how I feel. If I, sleep is such a big exacerbating factor in how I feel. But if I'm slapped and I still don't feel good, it's typically linked, I think, to something I've been eating, or something I've eaten very recently, maybe in the last 24 hours. So when you talk about how there's this holistic picture and how my brain might be, I think, I can't remember the words you used, but it sounded like you said, my brain is receiving signals from other parts of my body and it's kind of malfunctioning based on those signals, which is causing depression, anxiety, bad moods, whatever. That I think is really interesting because people think of mood as a separate thing. We don't think of mood connected to my gut.

• 12:03Tim Spector?

  No, it's, it's your own fault. You're in a bad mood. Why are you in a bad mood?

• 12:06Steven Bartlett?

  Something happened.

• 12:07Tim Spector?

  Yeah.

• 12:07Steven Bartlett?

  Externally. So someone cut you off in traffic or whatever it might be.

• 12:10Tim Spector?

  All these studies, you know, we've got four studies now where we're changing people's diets and they're going, they've been on generally bad diets, we've moved into good diets. That mood, particularly energy levels, the first thing they notice they're improving. And they never linked, just like you, their mood and energy levels with things like diet. It was just inherent. They thought, oh, it's just because I'm, you know, my life's shit or whatever it is. An extreme example is some families we've been working with, doing a Channel Four series at the moment called What Not To Eat. And we visit four families and they've got terrible diets. And we transform them, give them a gut-friendly.

• 12:56Tim Spector?

  Makeover diet, look at them after six weeks. The first thing they all notice is their mood and energy is dramatically increased. They were napping all the time, they were asleep all the time during the day.

• 13:09Steven Bartlett?

  What were they eating?

• 13:10Tim Spector?

  Crap food, highly processed crap food and snacking late at night, bars of chocolate, you know, sodas, chicken nuggets, pot noodles, rubbish food, right? So these were more, worse than your average, but still there's millions of people like that doing this and they had no clue that it was linked to them feeling terrible and tired all the time. And again, the first thing that improved was what was going on in their brains and they suddenly felt alert again. And once people realise there's this connection, then in a way, you'd have this feedback loop to say, okay, I'm not going to eat this shit food, you know, because I know it's making

• 13:53Tim Spector?

  me feel so sick. But until you make that connection, you're not gonna know. You'll just be in this constant state saying, well, you know, I'm just overweight, that's why I'm tired, or I'm not exercising, that's why I'm tired.

• 14:09Steven Bartlett?

  There's a bit of a vicious cycle here with eating something bad, then being low energy and sleeping all day, not feeling good, so you eat something bad and the cycle continues. Because if I don't feel good, I probably want to eat a chocolate bar.

• 14:23Tim Spector?

  In our ZOE studies, we found that people who had a bad night's sleep desperately craved some sugary crap in the morning, right? It's the first, you don't go for a healthy breakfast. It's like there's some little evil thing in your brain saying, um, okay, I need a quick fix, I don't care about the rest of the day, just get me through the next hour.

• 14:44Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what, I had someone posit on my podcast that, um, that was because your body's basically under a form of stress. So from an evolutionary perspective, if you're waking up in the middle of the night for some reason or you weren't sleeping properly, it might be because you were under threat, so your brain wants energy, so.

• 15:02Tim Spector?

  There are a lot of studies now that stress, which we thought of as a sort of external psychological event, is actually a physiological one and is actually driving inflammation. It's directly affecting your immune system, which is then sending these signals to your brain to change your behaviour. And this, I think, is very much the heart of what seems to be happening in depression. What I've been finding out is that it's detecting a change in immune system, it's switching on to this stress mode. And the stress mode then triggers these different behaviours in your brain. And very often, it's not, you know, real stress. I mean, most of the stresses we

• 15:45Tim Spector?

  get in every day are not like our ancestors had. We're not being chased by wild animals or being burnt out of our village, you know. So the, and what really interested me was this whole link between what happens when you have a vaccination. During Zoe, we looked at a million people's responses to the, if you remember, the Pfizer vaccine and the S K vaccine. And what was really interesting was that people were actually depressed during that time. So you had about 24 hours of depression, which was mimicking a more constant threat.

• 16:27Tim Spector?

  And this suddenly brought home this idea that you can trigger depression through a little shift in your immune system. There's a really growing theory about people who have long-term depression is that these, their immune changes are switched on so that they're getting the equivalent of this constant tickling of the immune system by a vaccine. So that, to me, is, was, was a really important thing. Because I, I have vaccines, I have regular vaccines, I'm a big believer in vaccines, but they do make you feel a little bit down. That makes sense, because your blood tests will show a spike in your proteins for inflammation, your immune system's kicking in, that sends signals to your brain, your brain says, okay,

• 17:12Tim Spector?

  I, looks like we've got an illness coming here. That illness behaviour in some people then gets carried on. For months or years, and this is now developing this whole new theory of of why people are depressed, which isn't the old theory of it's just due to a chemical imbalance. It's actually your body responding abnormally to a, you know, a normal response. It's it thinks it's under attack. Your brain thinks it's under attack. It should then shut down and protect you. This I find fascinating that we're now linking so much to the immune

• 17:50Tim Spector?

  system. And it's the immune basis of things of mental and brain diseases is becoming incredibly important. I'm sure you've talked on the podcast a lot about inflammation, aging and the role of controlling the immune system. Because if your immune system's out of control, your inflammation levels are high, your body can't repair itself. So aging happens faster in the brain. All of these things are pointing to inflammation being crucial to everything, but particularly in all aspects of brain health. And when I went and looked, you can really find that the immune system has a role in every brain disease they've ever

• 18:32Tim Spector?

  looked at. And yet, we've missed it because we've been so obsessed with new, you know, the way that Prozac works by it just being about serotonin or dopamine. And for 40 years, we've been going down the wrong path and missing this holistic view that actually it's it's about inflammation paired with metabolism. Because the other big player here is, and the reason a lot of people get dementia is, blood sugar is not well controlled, and the the energy supply to the brain is not well controlled. So those two things for me have.

• 19:12Tim Spector?

  Transform my view of of brain health and I used to study genetics, as you know, and it was always interesting that in when we looked at twins, which were usually very similar for most things, when we looked at brain diseases, there was very little similarity in the twins. So the genetic component was always quite small, apart from a few diseases. Most of them were really low level, what we call heritability. And there was a massive study in Sweden, they looked at several million sibling pairs and so looked at all their mental health or brain diseases, I prefer to call them. And there was no gene

• 19:54Tim Spector?

  that really came out, even in several million people that explained these diseases, other than a general tendency to get any type of brain disease. So they called, you know, this like factor P. If you had this general susceptibility, you could get any disease, but that could be mania, depression, bipolar, ADHD, it could be Alzheimer's, it could be schizophrenia, which which suddenly changes your whole view of these these diseases. We've said these are individual disease that should always be looked at separately. And if you start thinking of this as the brain as a an organ, just like anything else,

• 20:37Tim Spector?

  like it was the liver, you'd say, okay, we talk about liver disease, you know, how do you prevent liver disease? We never talk about that in brain disease. We just say, okay, you've got to talk about manic depression differently to ADHD or personality disorder or epilepsy or whatever it is. But it turns out that not only have the similar genes, but really similar risk factors as well.

• 21:01Steven Bartlett?

  I've heard you say that you think Parkinson's disease starts in the gut as inflammation in the gut.

• 21:08Tim Spector?

  Yeah, that's a great example of how.

• 21:13Tim Spector?

  My view of these diseases changing, there's really good epidemiology data now. What's epidemiology data? Epidemiology data is data in large populations.

• 21:27Tim Spector?

  So you study the cause of disease by studying populations, that's essentially what epidemiology is. And what these studies have shown is that if you follow susceptible people

• 21:42Tim Spector?

  and find out who at the end ended up with Parkinson's disease, you will see that about ninety percent of people who end up with Parkinson's disease had some gut problems ten years before.

• 21:54Tim Spector?

  And you might say, okay, well, might not be related, might be two separate things, but they've actually found the same protein changes in the brains in people with Parkinson's disease. This particular protein that gets misfolded. It's a bit equivalent to Alzheimer's, but it's a separate type of protein, alpha synuclein, and it gets folded and you get this characteristic thing you can see post-mortem called a Lewy body. But it's the protein folding that's important. And if you look in the gut, not only do these people have constipation and bloating and problems ten years before, really sluggish

• 22:36Tim Spector?

  intestine, but they have the same proteins that are misfolded that you can find in their gut. And they think that it takes ten years for these proteins to go slowly up the vagus nerve into the brain and then it causes the problem there. So this is the the latest theory behind Parkinson's disease that it actually starts in the gut and it's related to inflammation in the gut. So these proteins start folding when the gut is not happy, which means that you could potentially prevent Parkinson's disease by a gut-friendly diet. It looks like it's, the evidence is building that, you know, that's going to be pretty concrete soon.

• 23:19Tim Spector?

  If that's true, then you may think, what other diseases might have that origin there that we really don't understand? What about multiple sclerosis that might happen there first? And it really starts to bring. You know, this obscure, all these brain disease back into the domain of the rest of the body and what's going on there and these metabolic problems. You know, diabetes is the number one risk factor for so many of these conditions as well. So it like, if you've got type two diabetes, you're like four times as more likely to have a brain disease. Not only depression, but also bipolar, schizophrenia, epilepsy, all of these ones.

• 24:03Tim Spector?

  So clearly they're linked. There's what goes on in your body, what you're eating, what your immune system is doing has this amazing knock on effect.

• 24:16Steven Bartlett?

  So what do we do about it? What does the average person do about it? You know, cause the average, you know what the average diet looks like in the Western world? If we want to have optimally healthy brains and avoid dementia, Parkinson's and some of these other disorders that are linked to the gut, what is, what is the most important thing the listener right now should be thinking about and doing?

• 24:39Tim Spector?

  Well, I like to think we've got, I've got a list that's getting longer, but it's I've got now eight rules for gut health, which pretty much work for all health because we, to treat the brain, it's no really different to treating the rest of your body. If you treat that well, you're going to be fine. So the first thing is to be mindful of what you're eating. Don't just put any old shit in your mouth, you know? I mean, stop for a bit and say, is this, what's in it? Is it any good for me? How's it going to make me feel?

• 25:13Steven Bartlett?

  You mean checking labels and stuff?

• 25:14Tim Spector?

  Checking labels or even just taking a second to think, you know, gosh, don't just blindly eat in front of the TV without thinking what you're eating as we, most of us do. Second, probably the key thing is, I think, is to eat a diversity of plants, 30 plants a week. These 30 plants give you the diversity of chemicals to act as fertilizers for getting as many good bugs as you can hand into your system.

• 25:42Steven Bartlett?

  How can you explain that to someone that doesn't know much about the gut?

• 25:44Tim Spector?

  When I'm talking about your gut, I'm talking about your gut microbes. And there are 40 to 100 trillion of these guys in your. Mainly in a large intestine that are mini pharmacies. And there's, we have thousands of different species, all of which highly selected to eat only certain foods. There's one that only likes coffee, for example, called Lawsoni bacta.

• 26:11Steven Bartlett?

  A bug that only likes coffee in my belly.

• 26:13Tim Spector?

  Just waiting for you to drink coffee.

• 26:15Steven Bartlett?

  And when I drink coffee, what happens?

• 26:17Tim Spector?

  It has a party, has sex, has babies, multiplies, and then produces certain chemicals in response by breaking down that coffee into other ingredients, which might then help your immune system and in some way explain why coffee is good for your heart. So you've got to imagine that you've got lots of bugs like that that are highly specific, waiting for you to have not only coffee, but you know, maybe it's seaweed, or maybe it's baobab, or maybe it's things you don't often have. So that we can expand our list of good bugs.

• 26:54Steven Bartlett?

  So if I stop eating a particular food, like coffee, if I stop having coffee, will that bug die?

• 27:00Tim Spector?

  It probably goes down to very low levels. Because actually, what's interesting is even if you stop drinking coffee, you're surrounded by coffee drinkers. And they, their droplets of saliva and kisses and greetings mean that you'll be getting some of that. Either those bugs themselves, or you'll be getting some bits of coffee in the air, a coffee aroma.

• 27:28Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so the bugs go up and down in population?

• 27:30Tim Spector?

  Yes, so even in non-coffee drinkers, we do see tiny amounts of this Lawsoni bacta. But in countries that don't drink coffee at all, there are a few African countries, for example, where it doesn't exist, you know, in tribes, you don't see it at all. So it, that's, but I think it's important to imagine you're, it's a bit like having a rare animal, you know, you've got to feed in your zoo. You don't want to give them all the same food, you've got to give them this diversity so that all the rare animals can get out there. And we know that the more good bugs you've got. The better your immune system, the more you dampen inflammation, the more you can

• 28:12Tim Spector?

  prevent all these problems that we're seeing. So our aim is to build up the good bugs, and the more you build them up, they squash out the bad bugs, the ones that like eating the burgers and the bad food and the terrible quality fats and the artificial substances. So you're squashing them out by starving them, and you do that by feeding them properly. That's the concept, if that makes sense.

• 28:38Steven Bartlett?

  And on that point of coffee, doesn't it restrict blood flow to your brain?

• 28:42Tim Spector?

  No, not as far as I know.

• 28:45Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 28:46Tim Spector?

  I'm talking, I know about coffee at the epidemiological level, so there've been multiple studies, like I was saying, I mean, coffee drinkers, non-coffee drinkers, seeing what happens to them 20, 30 years later. And drinking between two and five cups of coffee reduces your risk of heart disease by about 25%. So there may be other studies showing it does something to your brain, but generally, everything I've seen is beneficial. I've not seen anything negative, although there are some people who react to caffeine badly, so there's always a personalised element to it.

• 29:24Steven Bartlett?

  Sleep disruption and stuff?

• 29:25Tim Spector?

  Yes, so you might be a metaboliser, it doesn't metabolise quickly in you, so that caffeine is hanging around longer. So they're the only downsides to it for some people.

• 29:38Steven Bartlett?

  Can it make you more anxious?

• 29:39Tim Spector?

  I think it can make some people more anxious, yes. And that's why things like matcha are better than coffee, because they have an extra chemical in there that can calm you down. So like anything, any food, it's all personalised. And so when we talk about epidemiology, we're talking about the average person. Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. So I'm not saying that everybody in the world needs to have coffee, but coffee used to be demonised as something that would give you heart attacks and arrhythmias. And in fact, the opposite is true. Epidemiology can actually, you get less heart abnormalities, arrhythmias, when you drink coffee, for reasons we still don't understand.

• 30:24Steven Bartlett?

  So the first point of the eight was mind, being mindful about what you eat?

• 30:27Tim Spector?

  Second was eat 30 different plants, and that was the basis of our...

• 30:35Tim Spector?

  Our Zoe product, the Daily Thirty, which has thirty four, mainly freeze dried whole plants in it, and we've recently added some more. So we added some seaweed, some algae and some kombucha in there. So they're rare ingredients. We've got seven different types of mushroom that you wouldn't normally have.

• 30:54Steven Bartlett?

  It's worth me saying that I'm an investor in Zoe. And let me take a look. So you just, you take this out and you sprinkle it on top of your food typically?

• 31:05Tim Spector?

  Yes, you add it to food. And it's, so it's, it's different to most of the other sort of supplements you might see. It's not instead of food. It looks more like food than most of the, of the common supplements out there that look like green powders. We, we did a big trial of this with about three hundred and forty people, comparing it to a probiotic and a dummy one. And over six weeks, you get really quite dramatic improvements in your gut microbes with, with eating this. So you really push up the good bugs and squash out the bad bugs about several times more than you would get just by having a traditional

• 31:50Tim Spector?

  probiotic. So this fertilizer approach does seem to work. And this is the, this is the study where we also showed the improvements in mood after a few days, which, you know, surprised me because I wasn't even thinking about that when we, we planned the study.

• 32:10Steven Bartlett?

  So the key reported findings in that study were a gut microbiome improvement, an average increase of five points in their Zoe gut microbiome score, digestive system, seventy percent of people reported improvements in overall digestive systems, symptoms. And it increased fullness by forty one point five percent, satisfaction by twenty one point six percent, and energy by forty three point three percent, and reduced hunger and desire to eat versus the meal alone. About half reported increased energy and forty five percent reported improved happiness in the main study.

• 32:48Tim Spector?

  So we weren't expecting that. That was, that was my, my point really on these. Because we thought it would just be gut, it would like, okay, do I get, do I go to the toilet more often? Is it improving my gut microbes? And so it was a real bonus to see these, these brain effects.

• 33:04Steven Bartlett?

  And did you do stool tests on those people to see?

• 33:07Tim Spector?

  Yes.

• 33:07Steven Bartlett?

  The change in the bugs in their stomach over that period, was it six weeks?

• 33:11Tim Spector?

  It was around six weeks, yes.

• 33:13Steven Bartlett?

  And what did you see change in their, their gut bugs?

• 33:16Tim Spector?

  So we've got a new scoring method for gut bugs, which we published last month in, in, in Nature. And so we used to talk about diversity and on previous podcasts, I think we've talked about diversity, which is the number of different species. But we've got a better way of looking at that now, which is to take

• 33:37Tim Spector?

  a hundred most important bugs that change with diet that everybody's got. Because we're all different, it's very hard to compare your, your bugs with my bugs, because we only share 20%. So this looks at a hundred common bugs that we've both got, 50 good and 50 bad. And what we want in an intervention is to see the, the good bugs are associated with good diet and good health outcomes, good blood tests are going up and the bad bugs associated with inflammation, poor diets and bad health outcomes are going down. And that's exactly what we saw. We saw a change in roughly 40 of these microbes with the prebiotic, the daily 30.

• 34:21Tim Spector?

  Whereas with the probiotic, which we know works from other studies, we saw only a change in about four or five of the bugs.

• 34:28Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 34:28Tim Spector?

  So, so they both worked, but the, the prebiotic was working better than the probiotic, which has sort of changed my mind about what's more powerful.

• 34:39Steven Bartlett?

  So prebiotic being what and probiotic being what?

• 34:41Tim Spector?

  Prebiotic is like a fertilizer for gut microbes, it's there, it's giving them food.

• 34:47Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Tim Spector?

  So that, and in an indiscriminate way, because we're giving a wide variety of foods. In these 34 plants, each of them has hundreds of chemicals, so there's thousands of different things for them to feed on. Whereas a probiotic, we used lactobacillus rhamnosus, which is a well-known one that's been studied.

• 35:07Tim Spector?

  You know, hundreds of trials. It's a live microbe that lives generally in foods like yogurt and things like this. In a concentrated form in a capsule, you give that and it improved the gut microbiome but much less than the.

• 35:23Steven Bartlett?

  So prebiotic gives them food, probiotic actually just puts bugs in there?

• 35:27Tim Spector?

  It put bugs in there and we used to think it was like a seed. So fertilisers and maybe seeds. But we now know that that bug will never really seed in your gut microbiome. And so the science and our thinking has changed. We think the probiotic is really tickling your immune system as it's going down.

• 35:49Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 35:49Tim Spector?

  So it's probably working higher up in the small intestine, which is further up in the gut.

• 35:58Steven Bartlett?

  Where is the gut?

• 36:01Tim Spector?

  Yes, so most people, if you ask people to point to the gut, they always think of their stomach.

• 36:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 36:07Tim Spector?

  That's not your stomach, you see, that's your, they're the intestines. So your stomach is up here. Take away your liver. If you imagine we've got a body here, you've got a mouth. Food goes in there through the esophagus, which is a tube that leads to the stomach. And this is the stomach here, which is highly acidic. And that leads into the duodenum through a little valve. And that is where food starts getting mushed around into little balls. And that goes into the small intestine here, which is badly named because the small intestine is really the largest bit of the gut.

• 36:51Tim Spector?

  And it's endless coils of guts. There are lots of crypts, there's little nooks and crannies everywhere. And so the surface area is really huge. It's several tennis courts if you laid it out, just one.

• 37:08Tim Spector?

  In one human, and that's because that's where most of the nutrients get absorbed. They get extracted from the food and absorbed that way so that all the trace elements and things, we're recycling, we're like a recycling factory. And then from the small intestine, it then goes into the large intestine, which is also called the colon, and that's where most of the gut microbes are. So ninety-nine percent of the gut microbes are in that final part, the large intestine, which is a couple of metres long and varies widely between people. And this is the spot where fibre goes.

• 37:52Tim Spector?

  Things that hasn't been digested in the early part of the gut is, and that's because the microbes mainly feed off fibre. And so that's where they do the good. They convert that fibre into products such as short-chain fatty acids, which are the really beneficial chemicals that are good for our immune system. And it's important to realise that across both the small and the large intestine, you've got huge amounts of nerves. You've got what's called the enteric nervous system, which is our second brain. And is, it was actually the first brain to be formed. So when we were little embryos, we started as a little tube.

• 38:37Tim Spector?

  And the nervous system that formed around our intestine was actually the first bit, first brain of our body. And in a way, we divert the second one on our head as a bit of an afterthought, which is quite a fun way of thinking about it. It just shows how important the nerves are in our gut to the way we function. And as we were talking earlier about this, this connection between the two. And there's also immune cells. So seventy percent of our immune cells are in the gut. Most of them in the large intestine, but also in the small intestine. So. Our immune system is here and a huge amount of our nervous system is here.

• 39:15Steven Bartlett?

  Why, presumably the bugs are all through the body.

• 39:19Tim Spector?

  They're everywhere. So they're also in your, yes, I should point out, we're covered in bugs. So every bit of the human body has some bugs in it. The second biggest place where we have them is in our mouth, so the oral microbiome. In our, in our saliva and in our teeth and our gums. And that's why poor hygiene, if you're not flossing properly, you're double the risk of getting dementia as well. Interestingly, because there's a real link between microbes here that if they're eating plaque and other stuff that you're leaving around in your gums gets inflamed. That creates an environment where nasty microbes that love inflammation live.

• 40:04Tim Spector?

  And for reasons we don't know, they seem to pass in from, from your mouth into your brain and trigger inflammation in the brain, which then increase your risk of dementia.

• 40:16Steven Bartlett?

  If you're not flossing.

• 40:17Tim Spector?

  Yes, this is really new science showing that just how important these, getting the right bugs in the right place and avoiding the ones who are in the wrong place really is.

• 40:28Steven Bartlett?

  Why do we need these bugs? Why didn't evolution design us so that we could just do all this stuff without the need of these little workers, these little bugs in our bodies? It seems super weird to me that, you know, you think of the human body as being this one organism, but actually it's, appears to be many, millions and millions and millions of organisms.

• 40:47Tim Spector?

  Well, you've got a sort of human centric view of the world, Steve.

• 40:50Steven Bartlett?

  True.

• 40:51Tim Spector?

  We, we evolved from microbes.

• 40:53Steven Bartlett?

  We are one. We, we used to be one.

• 40:55Tim Spector?

  We used to be one. And it, it turns out that most of our bodies are remnants of microbes. Microbes obviously fuse to cause, to cause human cells.

• 41:10Tim Spector?

  So that was the whole origin of of how multicellular creatures came together. The single-celled microbes, some of them fused to to do that, others stayed as single cells. There was always this link between the single-celled guys and their multicellular ancestors, if you like. And so as we co-evolved into more complicated beings, the the two were always together. And it turned out that, again, as like as we're formed as embryos, the gut is the first thing that, you know, this this this tube is the first thing that comes

• 41:49Tim Spector?

  out um of the design system. And it's designed to have microbes in it that serve a crucial purpose in training our immune system to recognize what's out, what's harmful and what's beneficial. And it's also shown to be crucial for our brain development. But it is fascinating when we start thinking about our origins and think of it, you know, we essentially start as microbes, because also we don't think of our body, you know, we've always historically thought of, you know, God's creation, this body had nothing to do with anything else. We were the masters of the universe. And it's quite humbling to realize that so much of us comes from microbes. And I learned something recently

• 42:34Tim Spector?

  that was that also blew me away is that all our cells have these uh powerhouses in them called mitochondria. And it turns out they do much more than just supply batteries for the cell. They they're fighting inflammation, they're good for gene expression, they're good for metabolism. And it turns out the origin of these things is little microbes that got trapped in our bodies. They are essentially uh microbes that were good at making, creating energy.

• 43:08Tim Spector?

  And at some point in our distant past, we fused our multicellular microbes that were going around doing stuff. They said, oh, we could do with some more energy. And so by chance, they fused with these energy microbes. And slowly and slowly, it became incorporated into our bodies so that we now have these mitochondria, all our bodies, which, whose ancestors are also microbes.

• 43:37Steven Bartlett?

  And we have them in every cell of our body.

• 43:38Tim Spector?

  Yes, we do. And they're turning out to be quite crucial as well in in brain health.

• 43:43Steven Bartlett?

  Do you do you spend much time wondering, or have there been periods in your life where you've wondered about the meaning of all of this? And why there's living organisms? Because it doesn't appear to be a great need for living organisms. You know, you could just have rocks and water on these planets. I don't know why you need humans necessarily in as it relates to the contribution we make to the the environment.

• 44:11Tim Spector?

  Well, I think as soon as you had life, whether it was plant life, I mean, you're you're thinking perhaps of animal life. But, you know, things like lichen on rocks were one of the first forms of life. And something that was, it needed to get in energy nutrients from the rock. And then they, for some reason, just wanted to survive. And I think that's the the point that life is about getting enough nutrients so you can keep living or pass, you know, your genes on to someone else. It's this that concept. Once that was started, maybe it was lichen.

• 44:55Tim Spector?

  Everything else came from that. And that could have just been a chance event. So, but I, you know, it is always humbling, humbling to think that, you know, we've probably come back from some lowly point like this as we emerge from emerge from rocks and water. But, yeah, philosophy is not my strong suit, but I I just get so much pleasure from finding new facts. They're all around us. And I think it's fascinating that we've spent so long as humans looking up at the stars.

• 45:28Tim Spector?

  Whereas looking inside us at things like microbes and their origin is to me far more exciting.

• 45:37Steven Bartlett?

  And maybe explanatory as to like, you know, we're looking at the stars in South France.

• 45:42Tim Spector?

  Yeah, we look at the stars. So where do we come from? You know, what about the big bang? All this kind of stuff. Whereas actually studying what's in our cells and where do they come from? We could learn a hell of a lot more about ourselves.

• 45:56Steven Bartlett?

  If you follow me, you've probably heard me talk about hiring more so than anything else. You probably see me on Behind the Diary, which is our other YouTube channel, talking about how obsessed I am with the hiring process. And this really brings me to a recommendation I'd love to give you, which is to check out our sponsor LinkedIn if you're having hiring difficulties. Their new AI assistant filters out applications for you based on the criteria you've set for that specific job, surfacing only the best matches. That way, you're not left having to hunt through a mountain of different resumes. It will recommend 25 candidates daily who fit what you're looking for, that you can then invite to apply for the role. LinkedIn is where we go to find the long-term A players that I have in my team. In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least

• 46:37Steven Bartlett?

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• 47:19Steven Bartlett?

  out and about, I can respond to emails and Slack messages and WhatsApps and everything across all of my devices just by speaking. I love this tool. And I started talking about this on my behind the scenes channel a couple of months back. And then the founder reached out to me and said, we're seeing a lot of people come to our tool because of you. So we'd love to be a sponsor. We'd love you to be an investor in the company. And so I signed up for both of those offers. And I'm now an investor and a huge partner in a company called Whisperflow. You have to check it out. Whisperflow is four times faster than typing. So if you want to give it a try, head over to wisprflow.ai slash DOAC to get started for free. And you can find that link to Whisperflow in the description below. So that was the second point of the eight, which is eat thirty plants.

• 48:01Steven Bartlett?

  And so a daily thirty is a easy way to do that and a tasty way to do that. What's the third one?

• 48:08Tim Spector?

  I'd go for eat fermented foods and try and get three portions of ferments in your diet. Every day.

• 48:17Steven Bartlett?

  Every day.

• 48:18Tim Spector?

  And I wouldn't have said this three years ago because the science wasn't really strong enough to support this, but a study three years ago by a group in Stanford of twenty eight people showed the giving, they gave them five portions a day for about a month and showed that you can get a reduction in blood inflammation levels about twenty five percent in that time compared to a fibre diet. And that, you know, blew me away because this was the first really good study in this area. Because there have been lots of studies, but they're not good quality.

• 48:57Tim Spector?

  Suddenly, someone doing daily bloods, you know, they looked at twenty odd proteins in the blood. And suddenly you've got this link between a food and directly affecting inflammation in the blood, which, as we've been talking about, has big knock on effects on the brain and the rest of the body.

• 49:18Steven Bartlett?

  That's like kimchi and stuff like that.

• 49:20Tim Spector?

  Fermented food is any food that's been transformed by microbes into something better, which means it it tastes better, it's more complex, it lasts longer, so you don't need a fridge. That's why our ancestors did it and it's been chemically transformed and is generally more nutritious.

• 49:39Steven Bartlett?

  Give me some examples.

• 49:40Tim Spector?

  So yoghurt from milk, all you're doing is adding.

• 49:46Steven Bartlett?

  Zero fat, zero fat Greek yoghurt.

• 49:50Tim Spector?

  Oh, I never have zero fat Greek yogurt. Why do you want to drink now?

• 49:53Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know. I just, I was just.

• 49:55Tim Spector?

  No.

• 49:55Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 49:56Tim Spector?

  That, that means it be, yeah, heavily processed. You don't want that. But there's still good microbes in it. And, um, you know, all you're doing is transforming something rather average like milk, which adults don't really need. It's not particularly beneficial milk. And just by adding the microbes to it, you make it something healthy for the, for the body. And that's now been shown by, uh, by these, these kind of studies.

• 50:21Steven Bartlett?

  What you, what do you mean by, what's, what's wrong with this zero fat Greek yogurt? It says zero fats. That's, sounds like it's.

• 50:27Tim Spector?

  There's nothing, well, we, we need fats to live. So fat is good. And in fact, that just a few days ago, the USDA have changed their, all their guidelines, which used to be about saying, don't have fat and you, and have low fat products, to saying, actually, fat is good. All that advice we said in the past is wrong.

• 50:49Steven Bartlett?

  So why do they label things zero, zero fat still?

• 50:52Tim Spector?

  Because public still believe they're healthy and the companies that make them save money by calling it, by having zero fat. They replace the fat with starchy, artificially made, um, fillers, basically. So it's usually more sugary, uh, by having zero fat in it. But if it says zero fat, it's a sign it's unhealthy. You should avoid it.

• 51:16Steven Bartlett?

  So what are those fermented foods then? You were gonna say, you said.

• 51:18Tim Spector?

  Well, I'll, shall I just give you a quick list of all of them? So people know what I'm talking about.

• 51:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Tim Spector?

  So we've got yogurt, we've got cheese and virtually every cheese has live microbes except American cheeses. The more artisan, the bigger the number. Uh, milk kefir, which is like a super yogurt, often has 10 to 20 types of microbe in it. The krauts.

• 51:42Tim Spector?

  So I think of the four Ks. So we've got, we've done kefir. The kraut is like a sauerkraut. So you've got fermented cabbage. Cabbage is pretty boring on its own. You ferment it, the tastes are amazing. And it has these health benefits. Then you've got kimchi, which is a spicy kraut. And the staple diet of Korea, and they're pretty healthy. And even though it's got salt in it. People who have kimchi have lower blood pressure than people that don't have kimchi. And I love kimchi. Now, I hated it at first, but I'm now a real addict. Then you've got kombuchas. You see those in most supermarkets and stores.

• 52:23Tim Spector?

  And that's fermented tea. And the good ones can have thirty or forty of these. There's another type, water kefir, which isn't as popular, but I think we're going to see more of it. Tibikos is the other name for it. It's grains with lots of microbes in it, a bit like milk kefir, but with fruit added. And then you've got miso, all the misos you get in Japan, miso soup, miso paste, tempeh's. All the, all these are ferments. Around the world, there's hundreds of different ferments in nearly every continent. Has their own type of ferment. In Africa, there's all kinds of fermented beers and porages. And of course, we've got the, these are the live ones, but they've also got lots of dead ferments.

• 53:08Tim Spector?

  Obviously, bread is a dead ferment. Everyone makes sourdough. Then you've got wines and beers. And interestingly, again, very new science. Dead ferments actually have some health benefits. So I used to be very dismissive of

• 53:30Tim Spector?

  products like kombuchas that you would see in, in stores in America that say lightly pasteurized. And I'd say, oh, that's a load of rubbish. Be nothing good about that. But it turns out that even dead microbes, when you do a randomized trial, have some benefit for the host. You're looking a bit skeptical, but I, these against placebo studies, and there are enough of them now that you definitely believe, I know some of the researchers, that they, they were surprised, but it's, it's genuine.

• 54:00Steven Bartlett?

  Why is that? What's going on?

• 54:02Tim Spector?

  We think, again, if you go back to the vaccine discussion we were, we were having.

• 54:09Tim Spector?

  It looks like, although it's not alive, the microbe still has a cell wall. And it has proteins in the cell wall. So it's like the debris of these dead bodies that you're ingesting. We think they're tickling your immune cells as they go through the small intestine.

• 54:29Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 54:30Tim Spector?

  And it's it's giving a signal to your immune system to calm down, reduce inflammation. That's our best understanding of what this phenomenon is about. So live microbes are best, but it looks like dead microbes, which are called postbiotics or zombie biotics, are probably also good for you. So I think all fermented foods, even those that, you know, I I would have dismissed three years ago, are probably good for us. And that's really the best way to reduce your inflammation levels. We did a big study in Zoe of, we asked nine thousand people who are Zoe members,

• 55:14Tim Spector?

  who weren't taking ferments to try and see how they'd get on taking three ferments a day, how did they feel?

• 55:22Tim Spector?

  I think about three thousand dropped out, didn't didn't fancy it. But nearly six thousand continued and did the the two weeks taking it after a one week run in period. And around half of them noticed improvements in mood, energy, and had less hunger. So anyone out there who hasn't tried this, I think it's a great, simple way to see what you can improve just by changing what you're eating and and going for some of these ferments that you might not have thought about.

• 55:56Steven Bartlett?

  What's number four?

• 55:57Tim Spector?

  Number four is pivot your protein. At the moment, proteins.

• 56:03Tim Spector?

  All in the news, everyone wants to have more protein, big controversy about whether you need more. Most studies showed ninety percent of us are getting enough protein, probably doesn't do too much harm, other than it's really hard to get lots of protein in your diet. And most people are focusing on eggs and meat when they think about protein. So what I think people should focus on is that many other sources of good quality protein, like beans, like legumes, like mushrooms, like whole grains, like quinoa and pearl barley instead of rice, that if you're thinking about it, you can get your protein and get your fibre, because ninety percent of us are deficient in fibre.

• 56:44Tim Spector?

  And if you want to look after your gut microbes, you really need to be giving them the fibre, otherwise you're starving them just by having a protein drink. Next one, which one are we now doing?

• 56:54Steven Bartlett?

  Number five.

• 56:55Tim Spector?

  Number five is think quality, not calories. The whole idea of assessing food by calories is wrong. We've discussed this in the past. You should never really go for low calorie products. You should go for ones that are whole foods, that have their initial structure in them, that have all those original nutrients. It's all focusing really on high quality foods that haven't been tampered with and...

• 57:25Steven Bartlett?

  Why not calories?

• 57:26Tim Spector?

  Because it's not a good way to assess food. Calorie restricted diets have been shown for the vast majority to be not to work. And we know particularly through GLP one drugs, that as you restrict your diet and calories, your hunger signals go up and hunger is the main driver of obesity. So all you're doing is losing some weight short term, long term it will bounce back as your body does that. So calories should be ignored on any labels. Really, you should be looking to get high quality food that supports your gut.

• 58:08Tim Spector?

  And that's an important change in mindset for many people. But the next point is the crucial one which links to that, which is avoiding high risk processed foods.

• 58:21Tim Spector?

  Because they damage your your gut and your body in in a number of ways. The first obvious one is that they have lots of additives and chemicals to transform them into something edible. And those ones, things like emulsifiers, preservatives, gums, colorants, flavorings, artificial sweeteners are all things made by the food companies to trick your body into thinking these are tasty, and they often are, but they will damage your gut microbes who, in their billions of years of evolution,

• 59:01Tim Spector?

  have never come across these products because they don't exist in nature in that form. So like the cereal bar I have here.

• 59:12Tim Spector?

  Yeah, so this has got flavoured fillings, whatever that means, glucose syrup, glycerin, wheat, fruit juice, concentrate, vegetable fibre, natural flavourings, oatmeal and soya. Well, this one doesn't look too bad. I'm not quite sure what flavoured filling is though. Flavoured filling. What about this?

• 59:38Tim Spector?

  What's that, cornflakes or something? Cornflakes, yes. So they would be something I would regard as highly processed and probably at a moderate risk. At Zoe, we've created a new scale because in the past we'd have grouped all of these together as the same, but I think we now need to think of these as zero, mild, moderate, high risk, depending on whether they have them. What about this? That would be high risk, okay, because this is designed by the people that make them. It's got preservatives in it, so this will be the same in a week's time, right? We can still be playing with it. It's not going to change or get mouldy.

• 1:00:20Tim Spector?

  It's got emulsifiers to keep it together. It's got extra sugar in it. It'll have a really amount of salt in there probably and sugar and we've got some fat in here. So it'll be hyper palatable.

• 1:00:38Tim Spector?

  And

• 1:00:38Steven Bartlett?

  What does that mean?

• 1:00:39Tim Spector?

  That means that you can eat a lot of it before you get full. So it makes you overeat.

• 1:00:46Steven Bartlett?

  For anyone that can't see, we're talking about white bread, just normal white bread that you'd probably get in the supermarket.

• 1:00:51Tim Spector?

  Yeah, and it's it's got a special structure that's different. That also means that it it it takes very little chewing. All right, so you put this in your mouth, you don't really have to chew it. It's like baby food. Whereas, you know, a real bread made with high fibre, you you know, it takes several chews to get it down you. So there's lots of features of these foods that um alert you to them being uh unhealthy. So not only the ingredients which are bad for your gut microbes and disrupt them, the additives. Uh you've got the fact that it makes you overeat. So a lot of those potato snacks and things you get, they just dissolve in your mouth. They're designed, you eat them so fast.

• 1:01:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a good bread or a preferable bread?

• 1:01:37Tim Spector?

  Yeah, there are. There's not many, things like rye breads and spelt breads, ideally sourdoughs. Um the German style breads, the you know Scandinavian breads, they're pretty good for you. Because they still have the whole grain intact and that means it's got the nutrients. Also means it's harder to eat them quickly and they fill you up. These, if you eat this bread, it just doesn't, it makes you hungrier. I used to have this all the time when I was a junior doctor. Every ward had toasters and uh cheap bread courtesy of the NHS.

• 1:02:14Tim Spector?

  And you you eat them, they give you a little kick, you just feel just as hungry an hour later, having eaten, you know, four of them. And I think this is the problem. Many people don't realise that this food is is not only making them sick, making their gut microbes sick. But it it's actually making them overeat and studies show it makes you overeat by about twenty five percent. Which, you know, really adds up every day of your life.

• 1:02:39Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of people, including me, have gone through their life thinking that because when they eat this stuff, they get stomach pains. And sometimes they have gas or they'll have like, I don't know, toilet related issues. Um that they are gluten free, like they are gluten intolerant or whatever. I was one of those people. I thought, because if I eat this, if I was to eat this piece of bread, I'd feel it for the next two days. So I assumed I was gluten free. But when, I think we spoke last time, you told me that almost nobody is gluten intolerant, has a gluten, what's the term?

• 1:03:13Tim Spector?

  Well, there's, yeah.

• 1:03:14Steven Bartlett?

  Gluten intolerance?

• 1:03:15Tim Spector?

  Gluten intolerant.

• 1:03:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, but that's not necessarily.

• 1:03:18Tim Spector?

  When you test them, yes, directly. I mean, there are some, but most people who think they are are not. And that's because generally, when you eat a sandwich in the US or the UK, you're getting crap bread, terrible filling, all kinds of other additives and chemicals, which are probably disagreeing with you. So when you give up eating sandwiches, you might feel better.

• 1:03:47Steven Bartlett?

  So roughly up to thirty percent of people believe gluten is a problem for them, but only one percent actually need to strictly avoid it.

• 1:03:55Tim Spector?

  I think it's a great example of, we love to have a simple solution. So gluten came in, said, right, everyone can think about gluten, let's just get rid of that and all our problems are solved, rather than thinking, what are all the other things in a, in a cheap bread sandwich that you might be reacting to? It also could be the emulsifier that is gluing that bread together or is in the mayonnaise that you're having. It could be some of these colorants that are, you know, making the bread white or making that sauce bright yellow that you might be intolerant of. The more things that they, these manufacturers add to these foods,

• 1:04:41Tim Spector?

  the more likely there is one that is disagreeing with you. And your favorite sandwich suddenly, you know, becomes your worst enemy. Because, you know, they're just created by brilliant scientists to, all they care about is you find it irresistible and keep eating it. If you eat the healthy stuff, you don't have these problems.

• 1:05:01Steven Bartlett?

  What about these almonds, some walnuts in there as well? What do you think of almonds?

• 1:05:06Tim Spector?

  I love almonds. They're, they're good for you and lots of studies showing they're good for your cognition, even some mild effects on.

• 1:05:16Tim Spector?

  Other aspects of brain health and and mood. These are good for gut health. They've got all kinds of really good fats in them. These omega threes and et cetera are in nuts. So they're a fantastic snack that do fill you up and generally recommend them. Probably more data about walnuts than almonds for brain health that I've read about. So there are, you know, studies that people take a lot of walnuts. They help, but I I think the idea shouldn't be there's only one type of nut that you should eat. That's going to help your brain. We should again go back to this concept of diversity.

• 1:05:54Tim Spector?

  And so mixed nuts really are your best way of helping your your brain health by eating these things. And we used to demonize nuts because they had fat in it. Certainly when I was, you know, twenty years ago, you can't have peanuts and nuts. They're really bad for your heart. Now we've totally reversed this and I just think it it just shows how much has changed in this field in in a relatively short time.

• 1:06:22Steven Bartlett?

  What's number seven? So then number six was avoid high risk processed foods.

• 1:06:26Tim Spector?

  Important when you're picking food to try and get as many colors on your plate as possible because that's a sign that they contain these chemicals called polyphenols.

• 1:06:37Steven Bartlett?

  Natural colors.

• 1:06:38Tim Spector?

  Hmm, yes, yeah, exactly. Not the the blue colors you get that we really want to avoid, which are bad for you. So natural colors are a sign that they these foods are good for you. So we're talking bright berries. We're talking raspberries, blackberries, strawberries. We're talking rossololo lettuce. We're talking about cabbages that are purple. We're talking really all those bright colors because they contain chemicals that are from this family, broadly called the polyphenols, which act as.

• 1:07:16Tim Spector?

  Fuel for your gut microbes. And that allows them to then in turn produce things like short chain fatty acids and keeps them healthy. So it's a sign from nature that we're eating these foods and it's a signal prior ancestors knew. And the other sign which we can't tell from looking at, but we get to know is bitterness. So bitter plants tend to be much healthier than bland ones. That's the broccoli story. That's why extra virgin olive oil is so good for us. Why coffee is also good.

• 1:07:57Tim Spector?

  Why red wine and dark chocolate. It's those polyphenols in there that are really giving us our microbes a boost. And the eighth one, last but not least? Last but not least, give your gut a rest. Fast. Yes, so time restricted eating. This has been shown to help your gut recover in a proper circadian rhythm. It's a bit like getting a good night's sleep for your gut. So we all know the benefits of sleep for us, but we often disregard our gut. Many people have a late night snack, a kebab going home from the pub or whatever it is.

• 1:08:40Tim Spector?

  It's completely the wrong thing to do for your gut health. Twelve to fourteen hour overnight fast, trying to restrict your eating time to ten hours really has been shown to have metabolic advantages for you and improves your gut lining. So it's less likely to leak and cause inflammation and allows the cleaning team and your microbes to come out and clean up your gut. The number of studies now showing that it does have these metabolic advantages, but

• 1:09:16Tim Spector?

  I'm not pushing it so hard these days because we did do a mass, another massive citizen science study with Zoe with over a hundred thousand people doing this. We asked them to do fourteen hour time restricted eating. A third gave up. They said, I can't do this. I feel too hungry all the time. I need to be snacking something like almonds. A third loved it and they're still doing it two years later. And a third was sort of, yeah, I'll do this sometimes. I feel better on it. So I think there is a personalised element to it, but if you can do it, it is really important. And I would urge even the people that find it tough, if you can avoid that unhealthy late night snack, that can have a really big impact on your gut and your brain.

• 1:10:01Steven Bartlett?

  You know, every once in a while you come across a product that has such a huge impact on your life that you'd probably describe it as a game changer. And I would say for about thirty five to forty percent of my team, they would currently describe this product that I have in front of me called Ketone IQ, which you can get at ketone.com as a game changer. But the reason I became a co-owner of this company and the reason why they now are a sponsor of this podcast is because one day when I came to work, there was a box of this stuff sat on my desk. I had no idea what it was. Lily in my team says that this company has been in touch. So I went upstairs, tried it, and quite frankly, the rest is history. In terms of my focus, my energy levels, how I feel, how I work, how productive I am,

• 1:10:46Steven Bartlett?

  game changer. So if you want to give it a try, visit ketone.com/steven for thirty percent off. You'll also get a free gift with your second shipment. And now you can find Ketone IQ at Target stores across the United States, where your first shot is completely free of charge. If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards, because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest and we've turned them into the Conversation cards and we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even

• 1:11:30Steven Bartlett?

  more interesting and there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition and for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me, but I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below. You've become more open to keto in recent years.

• 1:11:56Tim Spector?

  Yes. I'm I'd say I'm keto curious.

• 1:12:02Steven Bartlett?

  You're keto curious. What's made you keto curious? Because I don't think you I don't think you were very keen on keto before.

• 1:12:10Tim Spector?

  No, I think when we discussed it, I was I was pretty anti it, you know, but reading about the brain, how important metabolism of the brain, brain energy is and doing more research has slightly changed my mind because what we discovered is how amazing it is for childhood epilepsy. It it is still used as the main treatment for drug resistant childhood epilepsy.

• 1:12:40Steven Bartlett?

  The keto diet.

• 1:12:40Tim Spector?

  The keto diet. So what for people who don't know, what what we're talking about here is you're changing the the energy supply of the brain from glucose to ketone bodies, which is a switch that we've always had ever in evolutionary terms when we couldn't get food. So after about two days of not having food, we've used up our glucose reserves, we used it up from our our muscles and you switch to this other form of energy and it's a survival mechanism. But what it tends to do is reset the brain. And so in epilepsy, that's what they think it's a bit of a.

• 1:13:21Tim Spector?

  Like rebooting your computer. Epilepsy is rather strange because, and it used to be thought of as a mental illness, as I said, because you can get hallucinations, delusions, it's associated with depression. All the same, you can have all the same symptoms, you get all mental illnesses, interestingly. And it can be cured by keto. So that made me curious as to what else is going on. So in theory, some of the other mental health issues could be improved by keto. At the moment, there isn't sufficient good evidence. There's lots of anecdotal stories, studies of seven patients, open label.

• 1:14:05Tim Spector?

  Not convincing enough for me to say, let's do it. But I think definitely worth doing some real studies. But also suggesting that even if you don't go as far as keto, just by improving the metabolism and what, how the brain is getting its energy could be really important.

• 1:14:23Steven Bartlett?

  I think the interesting thing about the ketogenic diet, as someone that kind of cycles in and out of it, actually, I showed you earlier, I have this ketone monitor on my arm, which is monitoring my ketone levels at all times and connected to my phone. I think the interesting thing is, in the, in the world we live in, where there's a lot of food noise, as they call it, everywhere you go, there's temptation to eat something bad. You're going down the high street, there's takeaways and junk food stores and stuff like that. What I think keto does, which you're probably never going to see in a study, I don't know if you would, is it helps the craving, it like dampens the food noise.

• 1:15:06Steven Bartlett?

  So this is part of why I think cycling in and out of it is quite useful for me, because it means I have several moments in the year where my cravings for like this junk food, some of which we have on this table, just appear to vanish for a while, even if it's just for a week or two weeks or three weeks or four weeks. And that allows me to kind of reset and kind of take back control of the steering wheel. Whereas it's very easy, especially in modern life, when you're working really hard or you're travelling, you've got sleep disruption, to get into that exact spiral we talked about, where you get like cravings for sugar and then you eat sugar, so you feel a bit more tired and you lay down a bit more and then you miss the gym and then you kind of, you have the same like downward spiral. Keto continually snaps me out of the probability, the chance of that.

• 1:15:51Tim Spector?

  How long for though?

• 1:15:53Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, probably the longest I've done it is maybe six weeks or eight weeks. But even get, even doing it for, let's say, one week for me, will then mean the preceding four, eight weeks are much healthier in every regard. So even when I come off it, I'm much healthier. What I, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:16:15Tim Spector?

  That's why, what's interested me, because I, I think being on a long-term keto diet is never going to work, right? It's just too brutal and it's incompatible with keeping your gut happy. So to me, that's, I mean, very few people can tolerate it anyway. As you know, it's tough.

• 1:16:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Tim Spector?

  If we can come up with a regime that every three or every six months, you had a few days of going into keto, just enough to reset your body and your brain, and at the same time, you protected your gut, say by, you know, taking Daily Thirty or other things that weren't going to get you out of keto, but could keep your, your gut in a, in a, in the right place. Then I think we could potentially be have a, uh, something of practical use for brain health issues. And I'd, I'd love to, you know, do more. I'm, I'm planning at some point later in this year to do, to test myself, see if I can do a week of keto whilst keeping my gut microbes happy.

• 1:17:19Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever done keto?

• 1:17:20Tim Spector?

  Uh, not properly, no. You know, if you've done a 24-hour fast, you know, for a colonoscopy, you are just about getting into keto at the time you're doing it. But you're not, you've got other things to worry about, going to the toilet to distract you.

• 1:17:34Steven Bartlett?

  I think this is really it, because you, we talked about how holistic the, the whole picture of the body is and how it's so interconnected, and how the brain is so connected to the gut and all these things. And

• 1:17:44Steven Bartlett?

  There's something about doing the ketogenic diet, which just, it feels like I get control back.

• 1:17:50Tim Spector?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:50Steven Bartlett?

  In a, in a way that then has this bigger holistic effect on my life, my ability, everything in my life, like my ability to articulate myself as a podcaster. I had actually Joe Rogan say the same thing, had him say that, words to the effect of the fact that when he's in ketosis, it's so profound, his ability to articulate himself and think as someone that does four hour podcasts, that he would almost stay in it forever, just for that particular cognitive benefit of like mental clarity. And I always say to my team that when I'm in the keto diet, I feel like I'm looking at the world like this, like everything's high definition. And my mouth and brain are like, I always say my mouth and brain are connected suddenly.

• 1:18:27Tim Spector?

  Yeah, well, I've had other people say this, that they do get this sort of clarity, which, which could be in a more exaggerated way of feeling that benefit of a long overnight fast.

• 1:18:39Tim Spector?

  When you come in after 14 hours without eating and you're doing a podcast like this, yeah, I definitely do feel better than if I'd had a big English breakfast.

• 1:18:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Tim Spector?

  Just before. But I think the danger is that, you know, if people disregard their gut microbiome and do this, any advantage would be wiped out so quickly by the, the problems of what's happening to your immune cells and everything else in your body. So if we can find this intermittent middle way, while you can still look after your gut, then I agree, that would be cool. But I couldn't find any good data on, on this, apart from anecdotes of, you know, fanatics who will obviously

• 1:19:25Tim Spector?

  say it's great for their patients, but without any control group, because it must be a big placebo effect as well. It's very hard to not have a placebo effect when you're doing that, when you're, when you're struggling so hard to do things that, as I say, you know, people get keto headaches and they get, you know, as you go into it, people say it's, can be quite rough. So you can't double blind yourself. But I think it is fascinating that in the same way that reversing type two diabetes, you know, improves your mental health, it makes sense that if you're switching energy levels in the brain, you could also do things. And let's not forget things like ECT, still an effective treatment, that's, that's a brain reset.

• 1:20:08Tim Spector?

  Sometimes, you know, we may end up going back to the the old era of psychiatry, where, you know, before we got into this obsession with neurochemicals, to have this holistic view, which I think is is really fascinating.

• 1:20:24Steven Bartlett?

  And when you did that brain scan, you've found that you're in the highest twenty percent for levels of environmental microplastics

• 1:20:33Tim Spector?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:34Steven Bartlett?

  in your blood.

• 1:20:35Tim Spector?

  Yeah, that was a bit scary. They divide the microplastics into into two groups, the sort of depending the dimensions of them. I was concerned, am I was I eating a lot of microplastics? It turned out that the higher levels I had were actually the the smaller ones that you get through your lungs, which probably means a life, having lived a life in London, um, you know, six decades in London, probably wasn't very good for getting all this dust and and uh, things in there. That was a bit of a worry. That's probably because I cycle around London a lot in the last thirty years.

• 1:21:12Steven Bartlett?

  Have you changed anything in that regard?

• 1:21:14Tim Spector?

  I still cycle. I don't like wearing a mask. I know I sort of probably should. And I've put a new water filter in my home uh to take out some of these chemicals and and at least some of those plastics. I'm still not totally convinced on how bad they are. And the science, I don't think really we've resolved that issue yet. But it's it's something I'm I'm looking at closely. And I think if there's something easy you can do, I try and avoid plastic containers. I try and avoid plastic bottles. And I think that's good for the planet as well.

• 1:21:48Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a way to take these microplastics out of our body once they're in there?

• 1:21:52Tim Spector?

  Uh, they anecdotally, they say things like plasma pharesis, um, you know, you can go to a spa in L A and and get your uh plasma taken out and filtered and put back into your body. This is from your blood. But uh, I don't think there's any real clinical trials that satisfy me that would be worth. And they cost, I think, the sort of ten thousand dollars a go. So it's not not a cheap process to have that done. So I wait and see. But at the moment, yeah, it's it's it's a worry, but I I think there are the Other things in the environment, probably worse. You know, dust, pesticides. Is it better to have organic food rather than worry about plastics?

• 1:22:37Tim Spector?

  We don't know the answer to these, these problems.

• 1:22:39Steven Bartlett?

  How is your views on GLP-1s like a ZenPak and Wegovy, whatever it's called, these, these injections, and I think now tablets people are taking for weight loss? How has your views on those evolved? Are they good, bad and different?

• 1:22:53Tim Spector?

  They're going to be a part of our life anyway, so they're going to transform medicine and obesity in a way we can't imagine at the moment, especially now this year that the pills are available and it's coming off patent in many countries. So it'd be much cheaper. I think for people who really need them, they're an incredible drug. The only problem is you can't really come off them. So they're pretty much for life. My first worry is that a lot of people take them without supervision and they are not told to change their diet.

• 1:23:32Tim Spector?

  I'd love people to go, take the drugs, their hunger signal gets switched off, they can then be mindful about their food, they could do something like, you know, have the Zoe app or some other educational program to change their food habits forever in that, in that window of opportunity. And that, I think, is where we should be doing, and that's been completely ignored at the moment. Virtually nobody's getting that lifestyle advice as well as the drug. And so they're failing, they're going back in it, they're, you know, yo-yoing and they're getting the worst of the worlds. The other, the other slight worry we need to keep an eye on is the long-term effects

• 1:24:17Tim Spector?

  on the brain. So far, the data suggests that it does reduce your chances of getting dementia, even beyond, you know, reversing diabetes. So it looks like it's brain-protective, probably because it might have anti-inflammatory effects. It reduces things like gambling and addictions.

• 1:24:42Tim Spector?

  So we don't really know how it does that. But if it takes away some of your drives, those basic drives to say, I like to take risks. You know, I like, I like to take drugs. I like to smoke. I like to gamble on horses. Is it in some way changing you as a person long term? In that you might be less good as an entrepreneur, for example. So that is something I think is really interesting to follow. But in general, I think from a public health perspective, this could save, you know, health systems hundreds of billions long term.

• 1:25:25Tim Spector?

  And we ought to be taking it much more seriously and integrating it into holistic and educational advice.

• 1:25:32Steven Bartlett?

  And as it relates to brain health, you also have a sauna routine as part of your brain health regime?

• 1:25:40Tim Spector?

  Yeah, I've been impressed by some of the science coming out of this. And the fact that I quite enjoy, just actually enjoy it from a hedonistic point of view. So I try and have a sauna twice a week if I can, if I can do that. Ideally with a cold plunge afterwards, but the science isn't sure whether that makes a big difference. It's like just a workout for your, your blood vessels in your, in your body and your brain. So I think that the science is quite compelling and yeah, it makes me feel good, which is always, should be part of anyone's health routine. Something you enjoy doing is always easy.

• 1:26:20Steven Bartlett?

  And regular socializing is part of your brain routine?

• 1:26:23Tim Spector?

  Yeah, if you look at the happiest, long-lived populations on the planet, they've all got really good social lives. They are always dining with friends, going out. Often that does involve a little bit of alcohol in most of these societies, but that doesn't seem to adversely affect them. The idea of having a, a, a key group of core friends you see regularly, I think is really good for your mental and brain health. And loneliness has got to be one of the, the worst things for your brain health. So really important to maintain your, your good friends.

• 1:27:01Steven Bartlett?

  What is, what is the most important thing as it relates to? Brain health or overall health that we haven't talked about that we should have talked about?

• 1:27:08Tim Spector?

  I think we haven't talked about early life experiences and stress.

• 1:27:12Steven Bartlett?

  What, trauma?

• 1:27:13Tim Spector?

  Yeah, so one thing, and we haven't talked about talk therapies and, you know, conventional treatments. So if you look at all these brain diseases, virtually all of them, if you go back in time, if you've had emotional, physical, sexual trauma in early life, you're much more likely to have brain diseases later in life. And this is across all of them. Again,

• 1:27:48Tim Spector?

  coming up with the idea that they're all related in some way. And so, you know, we've moved on from the Freudian idea that, you know, the mind is different from the brain. If you take the holistic idea, how does this fit into this inflammatory metabolic

• 1:28:05Tim Spector?

  theory of brain health? I think it now does because they've done studies showing that following trauma or stress, you can trigger your immune system to be permanently raised. So again, you get this consistent stress that the thermostat doesn't go down to baseline.

• 1:28:32Tim Spector?

  So you have a period of a year, a terrible period as a kid. They do tests later in life, you'll find your inflammation levels in your blood are raised than people who had a nice, gentle, quiet childhood. And I think this is, starts to link all these different components together. And these cross, all these early life traumas, you see the same thing in people with chronic pain, chronic back pain, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome.

• 1:29:07Tim Spector?

  Epilepsy, schizophrenia, everything. But it doesn't really matter where the source of the stress was. It's caused some physiological problem. So I think that that is really interesting. So that we could pick up people who, if we had better tests of that stress and inflammation, we could start to help those people earlier on before the brain started to struggle. And I think that that's really interesting. And of course, we want to do most to reduce the problem in the first place. They've also done studies on talk therapies. So obviously psychiatry is compartmentalized into the talk therapists and the drug therapists.

• 1:29:50Tim Spector?

  And there's quite a lot of evidence that talk therapy does reduce inflammation levels and help your immune system. So just in the same way, possibly that talking to friends has that effect. So talking to your therapist long term will reduce your stress. And you can see that in blood markers as well. The whole thing is starting to come together that all these different ways of treating it can be working through similar pathways that look so different through our, you know, the fact that we've got so distracted by Descartes, Freud, treating the brain as something so different to the rest of the body.

• 1:30:37Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, what are you uncontainably excited about?

• 1:30:49Tim Spector?

  I am uncontainably excited about the idea that we can dramatically improve our lives and our health just by making the right food choices.

• 1:31:07Tim Spector?

  This is really driving me to talk about it so much, to do the studies, to do the science, to spread the word, because, you know, we're seeing all the time the dramatic effects, and I was talking about the TV programme was doing with these, you know, these, these families that are really suffering. It just shows you what you can do if you start treating food like you would treat medicine, you know, taking it really seriously and experimenting with it and noticing those, those differences. And, you know, I get the feedback all the time because I, because the books and the media, people telling me how their lives

• 1:31:50Tim Spector?

  have been transformed. And so that feedback keeps me excited on this topic. And so I've never had that in my career before, and it's super exciting.

• 1:32:00Steven Bartlett?

  It's, it's really hard though, isn't it? And this is, I guess, the, the part we don't talk about much, which is the psychological part of, you know, what some might call discipline. In a world, the world we live in, where you go into like a, I don't know, a gas station or a petrol station, or whatever you call it in different parts of the world, and the options are very ultra-processed, and you live a stressful life, you're on your phone all day, you're getting your dopamine fried by watching short-form videos back to back to back to back to back. You may be, you know, people are lonelier than ever before. So making the right choices when we're controlled by our neurology and our hormones and how we feel is, is often easier said than done. So even in the case of that family that you

• 1:32:45Steven Bartlett?

  met, do you think much about the psychology part of like, discipline when it comes to making the right choice? And is there any advice there on how to be more disciplined with our food choices? Or do you just think that knowledge is power in this regard?

• 1:33:02Tim Spector?

  Well, knowledge is power, but it's not the only thing. You, you, you need tricks. We're fighting a food environment.

• 1:33:13Tim Spector?

  You know, multi-billion dollar industry wants us to eat this crap food. Your gas station, they're being bribed to fill their, everything around you with the worst foods. The worse the food, the more they pay the supermarkets to have it in a point where you're gonna buy it. So you need to have tricks to counteract that. And not going to a supermarket is, is often one way to avoid doing that. If my house was filled with crap food, I would probably be snacking on it. I find it really hard to throw stuff away. You know, you, you go to workplaces and you see people with piles of biscuits and M and M's there. You know, they should be banned.

• 1:33:58Tim Spector?

  So there are certain things you say, we need to fight back by changing the rules a bit. Just like you wouldn't have, you know, glasses of vodka in an office for people to just have a swig if they fancy it. You shouldn't have candies and sweets and these things. In the current environment where, you know, we're fighting a battle. Like, you know, they used to have cigarettes that were free everywhere, forget. And they changed that environment, so the cigarettes are now really hard to get at. That makes it easier for people to fight the habit.

• 1:34:30Steven Bartlett?

  And we, we often beat ourselves up because we think of ourselves as being weak. Because of this, we think ourselves being like ill-disciplined because we end up reaching for the wrong things. But it is really, really hard and it's really, really hard. Even, you know, I sit here all day, every day speaking to people that are experts on these subjects. And you'd think that would mean that I made perfect decisions. Cause I've probably interviewed, you know, more people than the average ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the population on this subject. But I'm a human with emotions and hormones and life to deal with. And, and so even I have to, regardless of how much I know about this stuff now, I still have to like, give myself the best possible chance by thinking proactively about my envi- my food environment at home. And even like in the car and even at the office, like I have to think really proactively, put systems in place

• 1:35:15Steven Bartlett?

  to avoid the possibility that I get really, really hungry, really, really late at night and my only options are shit. For example, you know? Um. Which has been a bit, a big change.

• 1:35:25Tim Spector?

  And it's forming habits and that's the other thing. So it's, yeah, so you've got knowledge. Then you've got these tricks, tricks to avoid often the, the worst offenders. And then you've got to come up with these, these new habits that you, you make that are going to break the old ones. So, you know, rather than reaching for your breakfast cereal in the morning, you've got a different one ready to go. And often we've found that if you can change that first meal of the day, it, it becomes a lot easier because that's the one you're mainly in control of and realise when the other risky events are.

• 1:35:59Steven Bartlett?

  Tim, you've written many, many books. I'm going to link them all below. This is the, the newest one. I know you're working on one specifically about the brain, but I'm very excited for that one. But this is the newest one called Ferment, um unsurprisingly a number one bestseller yet again. Um. But there's a whole stack of books here, The Diet Myth, The Real Science Behind What We Eat, um Spoon Fed, Why Almost Everything We've Been Told About Food Is Wrong. And this book, which has been extremely successful, um The Food For Life Cookbook with a hundred recipes created by Zoe. I'm going to link all of them below for anyone that wants to check them out. And, uh, thank you so much once again.

• 1:36:35Tim Spector?

  Been a pleasure as always.

• 1:36:37Steven Bartlett?

  You've kept my audience very, very healthy and they're very appreciative of that. I, I remember, um, just the amount of people that come up to you all over the world and cite the conversations we've had in the past and how that's been the thing for them that has helped them to change their life. And it's pretty remarkable. It's really remarkable how many people you, you must have fundamentally caused to create different food and dietary decisions through the work you've done yourself, through the books, through Zoe. Um. And that's a really special thing. So thank you on behalf of all of them.

• 1:37:05Tim Spector?

  And hopefully we can do millions more.

• 1:37:07Steven Bartlett?

  I hope so.

• 1:37:12Steven Bartlett?

  If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing. Leaves a question for the next guest and we've turned them into these conversation cards and we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition and for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me, but I'm only putting the gold cards

• 1:37:55Steven Bartlett?

  in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.