Episode 502: Lance Armstrong on VO2 Max, Endurance Genetics, and Why Cycling Beat Running

Listen to the full episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW8bwsE_zE How does a kid who started as a swimmer become one of the greatest cyclists of all time? In this Fitness Friday episode, Lance Armstrong joins me to break down his journey from age-group swimming to professional triathlon to the Tour de France. We also discuss Lance's current training philosophy, why he doesn't push himself like he used to, and the mental toughness required to come back from a 20% chance of survival to win championships. Plus, the surprising influence his single mother had on his never-quit mentality. Lance Armstrong is a cancer survivor, former professional cyclist, and co-founder of Next Ventures. He won the Tour de France seven consecutive times. Today, he's a successful venture capitalist investing in health and wellness companies and has built a new life focused on family, business, and doing only what brings him joy. What we discuss: Transitioning from swimming to triathlon to cycling Why cycling beat running for Lance Discovering elite VO2 max at Cooper Clinic What makes the Tour de France so brutal How his mother shaped his never-quit mentality Thank you to our sponsor: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com http://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. Momentous: Shop this link https://www.livemomentous.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorDUIZz3psr1Qsq_n1yE8_6JTq_QUFabOO9lH65HDEXCIoJOPLj and use code Jen for 20% off Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Find more from Lance Armstrong: Website: https://www.nextventures.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lancearmstrong/?hl=en Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen https://www.instagram.com/therealjencohen/ Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagements

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:07Jen Cohen?

  Hey friends, you're listening to Fitness Friday on the Habits and Hustle Podcast, where myself and my friends share quick and very actionable advice for you becoming your healthiest self. So stay tuned and let me know how you leveled up.

• 0:29Jen Cohen?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor Momentous. When your goal is health span, living better and longer, there are very few non-negotiables. One of them, quality. And when it comes to supplements designed for high performers, nobody does it better than Momentous. Momentus goes all in on NSF certification, which means every single batch is tested for heavy metals, harmful additives, and label accuracy. And that's why they're trusted by all 32 NFL teams and top collegiate sports dietitians across the country. Here's the thing, they don't sell every supplement

• 1:10Jen Cohen?

  under the sun, because they believe in nailing the basics with rock solid consistency, and those basics are protein and creatine. Momentus sources Creapure, the purest form of creatine monohydrate available, an absolute must for both men and women who want peak physical and cognitive performance. So if you're serious about leveling up, go to livemomentous.com and use code GEN for 20% off. Just act now. Start today. GEN for 20% off. livemomentous.com.

• 1:54Jen Cohen?

  Let's go back to Little Lance. Let's kind of like chronologically do this.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, Little Lance.

• 1:57Jen Cohen?

  Because when you were Little Lance, because you were not always, you weren't, you didn't start off as a cyclist, right?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:04Jen Cohen?

  You started off, like, you were doing swimming, I heard.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  So, yep. Swimming was my first serious sport.

• 2:09Jen Cohen?

  Do you still swim?

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Occasionally. It's funny, I, so when you're my age and you swim seriously, you would swim what they call masters.

• 2:20Jen Cohen?

  Right, I know masters.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Right, but most people listening may not know master. Masters is, it, it looks like a swim team for old people.

• 2:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  So I grew up swimming with kids, and so, and if you're a serious swimmer at that age, you swim what they call age group swimming.

• 2:37Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  So kids, when they're young, they can sort of do the, the summer country club swim league.

• 2:43Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Which is just in the summer. Or if you swim year round and you swim more serious, you swim age group, right? It's like Michael Phelps, Katie Ledecky, they grew up swimming, age group swimming. So that means they swam twice a day, every day, 12 months a year. That's how I grew up swimming. So then when you get older and you want to be a serious swimmer, you swim masters, right? And so that's when I, like 15 years ago, I started swimming again seriously. And the masters team that I swam with is like two blocks from my house. I could walk there every day.

• 3:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  And I just, I don't go that often. And I haven't been in a while, but I can, I still enjoy swimming. I don't love chlorine.

• 3:24Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I know.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  To be honest with you. Chlorine, you know, if I, if I lived at the beach, I would probably swim open water. I'd probably swim almost every day. But the chlorine thing and you're just kind of...

• 3:38Jen Cohen?

  It kind of sears you away from that. So my question more was like, okay, so you started off in swimming. Like, how did you get into cycling? Was it, did you have, it seems to me like your endurance is off the charts genetically. Were you tested? Did you have like, did you, was it just something, how did you know that cycling was going to be the sport? You did swimming, which was an endurance thing.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  And then I started doing triathlons.

• 3:59Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  And then I turned pro in triathlon when I was 15.

• 4:03Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  And so then I knew that I had, I was getting results as a 15-year-old kid racing against 30-year-old men.

• 4:10Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  That you didn't need to be in a lab to, to, to know that you had some... That I had the DNA or the talent to be an endurance athlete. But at that time, I did, I lived in, I grew up in Dallas. So I went, I got asked to go be tested at a place in Dallas called the Cooper Clinic, which is pretty well known. It's a place that it's not dissimilar to Mayo Clinic or other places where folks will go and get tested. So I went as a, as a young kid and the testing, you know, I did a VO2 max test and all these things. And the, and the physiologist was like, wow, this is, I'm not sure we've seen a VO2 like this before. So, but again.

• 4:50Jen Cohen?

  Do you remember what it was?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm 53, that was 40 years ago, so no, but it was high.

• 4:57Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, very, I heard it was 86. I don't know if that was right.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Who knows? Who knows? It's funny, VO2 is having a moment again. Like I feel like, you know, when we were at that, when I was that age and then, and then when I was cycling and at the Olympic Training Center, we, we would test VO2 max. And then it kind of, you know, maybe it was prohibited because you needed all, you needed the lab, you needed the equipment. And now they've got these mobile units and so it's having a moment again.

• 5:25Jen Cohen?

  It is.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  And so anyhow, but it's, it's, there's a lot of different variables when it comes to VO2 max.

• 5:32Jen Cohen?

  But why, okay, cause another endurance, like when they try, why cycling and not running? Like why, why did you single out cycling?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Well, a couple of things. One, I enjoyed cycling more.

• 5:42Jen Cohen?

  Okay, that's a good reason.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  And who wouldn't?

• 5:44Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, if you're, if you have the option to, to, to go for four or five hours and see 80 miles of beautiful terrain versus in no impact on the body versus, you know, you know, seeing 15 miles of beautiful terrain and a lot of it, I just, I just, and I was better at cycling. I quickly figured out that, that cycling was my strength. Now, when I was a young kid and doing triathlons, I could swim with the front group. So I would come out of the water with the leaders. I would come off the bike with the leaders and they would run away from the, these guys that I would race with would run away from me because they were, I mean, they were 30 year old men. They run a lot faster. And so I, I mean, I still would finish

• 6:28Speaker 02

  top 10, but, but I knew that cycling was going to be the best of those, of the three. So then I started just gradually transitioned to cycling and I went to the Olympic Training Center and then I got selected for the Junior World Championships team, which was in 1989, which was in Moscow, which is kind of wild. I mean, this is, this would have been in August of 89, before the wall came down. Like I was a, you know, I was a 17 year old kid in Moscow. Like it was, it was.

• 7:04Jen Cohen?

  That's crazy.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, this is, and, and so that, that was, and then pretty much a year or two later, I switched full time.

• 7:12Jen Cohen?

  What, how old were you when you won the first Tour de France? How old were you?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Um, 27 years old.

• 7:21Jen Cohen?

  Your first one was 27?

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 7:23Jen Cohen?

  So.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  I think that's right. I'm trying to do the math. 1989. Yeah, maybe, maybe 28, actually. Jeez.

• 7:30Jen Cohen?

  Well, because what's, I want to like, how, how do you train for that? Because I think people are, you hear it's super grueling. It's like, it's, it's.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  That's all true.

• 7:39Jen Cohen?

  It's, I, I.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  It is grueling.

• 7:41Jen Cohen?

  Horrible. Like people like, you, you, you hear like little rumblings, but people who are not cyclists or who don't follow it. Can you describe why it is as grueling as people hear rumors to be like, why is it so, and so dangerous on top of it?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Very dangerous. And, and I mean, I think that's the thing that it's obviously an endurance event.

• 8:01Jen Cohen?

  Obviously.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  It's three weeks. It's over 2,000 miles. It's every day. There are two rest days, but it's, it's, you know, the, it's recovery is difficult, but there are 200 guys on the road, all trying to be at the same place at the same time. So you're not just, and of course we are on a team. We had, in my generation, we had nine riders on the team. So we're racing against 190 other people. It's, it's hard to control that. And, you know, the roads are technical. There's crashes. There's mechanicals. And so it's, there's a lot. Like it's a mix of endurance, it's sort of NASCAR, because you're fighting for position all the time, strategy.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Politics, right? Since you have the politics piece, when you think about it, if you're nine guys trying to control 200,

• 8:52Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  You have to be political. You can't, no team can control that. You're constantly trying to find allies and friends in that Peloton. And those people that are your allies and friends on day two might be your enemies on day eight.

• 9:09Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  So you're constantly trying to figure out the dynamics of this, this living thing that's going down the road known as the Peloton.

• 9:17Jen Cohen?

  And so what's the trade, like, how do you train for that? Like, what's the training schedule? Like, how do you? Because it takes a very particular mindset person to be able to even go through the grueling training schedule. Like, do you remember what you did day in, day out?

• 9:33Speaker 02

  No, I mean, well, first of all, there's a lot of racing beforehand.

• 9:35Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  So it's not, you don't just show up to the tour and say, I've trained perfectly. I mean, we would do anywhere from 40 to 60 race days before that. And then, and then obviously a lot of training, a lot of reconnaissance.

• 9:52Jen Cohen?

  Do you have to do weight training? Because you got to be like skinny, right? Like, very small.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Not a ton of strength training.

• 9:57Jen Cohen?

  So what do you, is it all endurance training? Like, did you do like mental mindset tricks? And do you like, how do you psychologically prepare for that? Like, is there anything on that side?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  No, no, I mean, we, we, other than being convinced I was gonna win.

• 10:13Jen Cohen?

  Like, no, exactly. But you have, you have to believe, your belief system on yourself has to be so strong, like, that you, that you actually believe that you can actually.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, not, not the first couple, but after I got a couple under my belt, I was, I was pretty sure we were. I mean, look, anything can happen. You can have all these things I described, accidents, illnesses, bad luck, or just bad luck, you know, caught out in a crosswind, lose five minutes. I mean, this can.

• 10:40Jen Cohen?

  But what made you, like, I guess, what made you so much? Like, this is the thing, okay, so I'm gonna not beat around the bush, obviously. Like, why is it that everybody on the tour, like, you got caught for doping, but everybody was doing it, right? So like, the playing field right away.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Technically, I didn't get caught, but that's another.

• 10:58Jen Cohen?

  That's a whole other discussion. But my first.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  I was exposed, certainly exposed, but not caught.

• 11:04Jen Cohen?

  That's true.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  If that makes sense.

• 11:05Jen Cohen?

  No, explain it.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  I mean,

• 11:07Jen Cohen?

  because for people who don't like, who are not familiar with like my, of course I know, but people who are like younger, who are listening, who don't really know all the details of minutia, people would just say, yeah, Lance Harman got caught for doping, right?

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Which is, that's fine, too. I mean, that's, that's, if that's, if that's sort of the story that, or the storyline that is, that has survived, then that's, that's fair, too. But what I was, and I was just half joking, I mean, being caught, being caught, we obviously were tested every day.

• 11:39Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  So being caught would be like you tested positive. I mean, there was none of that. It was, it was way more complicated. There was a, it was more of a legal process.

• 11:49Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Then, uh, it was a success of the legal system and not a success of the anti-doping system.

• 11:56Jen Cohen?

  But why do you think that you were made to be such a poster child? Like people, everybody was, my point was it's such, it's so grueling, it's so horrible. I feel like the, it seems to me the baseline was everybody was doing it and you still were in that baseline so much better and exceeded everybody else.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, I think that's right. And I think that, that's not a popular answer, but the popular answer isn't an informed answer.

• 12:20Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  The informed answer is, and this is, you know, I've talked a little about this in the past, the only people that matter, the only people that matter are the people who were in the race. That's it. In my, in my opinion, that's all I care about. Now, if 90% of them were yelling and screaming, you know, you know, lynch this guy, then I, that would suck. But the reality is 0% of them have said that. So they're all that matter, right? The people who were in the war and in the battles and in the trenches and in the fights and were head to head, that's all that matters.

• 13:04Jen Cohen?

  Today's episode is powered by AMP. You know those days when you're just done? I mean, the meetings, the kids, the to-do list, and you still want to move your body, but the gym feels a million miles away? That's exactly why I love my AMP. AMP is a smart, AI-powered strength training device that sits right in your home. It's super sleek, literally looks like you got it at the Apple Store, and it also counts your reps, adjusts your weights for you, and you're always training under the perfect amount of tension. So whether you've got 15 minutes or 45, AMP adapts in real time to make every workout simple, effective, and completely personal. And the app is super cool, too.

• 13:48Jen Cohen?

  It has hundreds of different workouts: strength, Pilates, mobility, recovery, and it's so easy to use. It's literally been a game changer for me. I don't have to plan my workouts or wonder what I'm going to do. I just turn on my AMP and it takes care of the rest. And as a mom, and a business owner, and a podcaster, that convenience means I stay consistent. And, you know, strength training, especially for women, is so key for my hormone balance, longevity, and of course, confidence. So you can see why I'm obsessed. Go to joinamp.com/gen to learn more. That's joinamp.com/gen. Because strength should fit your life.

• 14:40Jen Cohen?

  Like, what would be the one thing that you wish people knew that hasn't really, that people don't realize or don't know? If there was like one piece of information that's been very misbranded in the media, what would it be?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  I mean, look, there's... I'm not going to get into the details of it because I've moved on with my life and I feel like I've done a decent job moving on with my life. What I will say is that there were a few things as this legal process played out to sort of reinforce and really to dance on my grave. There were three or four taglines and PR statements made that just weren't true, right? And so that's, but whatever. I mean, it... That's what those agencies chose to do and they're not, they're simply not true.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  And the, again, if, if it, time tells the true story here. And I'll just give an example, right? So if, if somebody says that guy right there pointing to me, that's the biggest fraud in the history of sport. I mean, come on, that's, that's easy to say at the time. That feels good for the other side to say, I'm sorry, that is not true. Right? And, and I know that. My competitors know that. My teammates know that. The people that I raced as a 15 year old professional triathlete know that. The people that I raced as a 53 year old high rocks athlete know that. So that's just, they're just jerking themselves off. But hey.

• 16:15Jen Cohen?

  No, I think that's, I think, I think it's because I think also the biggest and best, people love to see that person fall, right? And then rebuild, like someone like you, because you've had like between that, I was gonna ask.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  I don't think they considered the rebuild.

• 16:33Jen Cohen?

  I mean.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  I don't. I think, I think, I meant what I said. When you dance on somebody's grave, they're in the grave.

• 16:39Jen Cohen?

  That's true.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  And that's what they did. And that's, that's, but, but that, that, that wasn't going to stay in the grave.

• 16:47Jen Cohen?

  Well, also, you know, it's interesting. I said this to you before, it's like you, you were such, you were probably such a low place, but it didn't ever, it never really, it didn't seem like you ever got, it didn't take you into a bad place. I feel like you kept on succeeding over and over in other areas of life.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  But it's been, look, it's been 12, 13 years. That's a long time. So, so I, I had time. I didn't have time to, to, to be a professional athlete again, right? Time was up for me. I was 40 years old and, and was banned in cycling. But I had time to be patient and to reimagine, reassess, reinvent, reemerge in whatever way. So I had time for that, but there was a long period, and I say long, I mean, five, five-ish years, where I was just patient and I just watched and waited and, and, and, and did all the things I just laid out, right? Primarily reimagining and reassessing.

• 17:47Jen Cohen?

  But even like we get, you get cancer at 25 years old, right? And like your doc, I read that your doctor gave you like basically 20% chance of living, right? And you're, you, you were that, that little amount, you were able to, you know, against all odds, beat that and then go on again to win. Like that to me says something about like your, your brain and your mindset and your will, I guess, overall, the will is what I, was what I'm so fascinated by. Like, is that something that is just so innate in you? Like, nothing can like, you're un, like, it seems like you're actually are, like, you are like unstoppable. Is that something that you trained for? Are you just born like that? Like, can people

• 18:29Jen Cohen?

  become that if they're not that way? Cause you just are who you are, right?

• 18:34Speaker 02

  I mean, look, I, I, maybe, I mean, that's, that, that all sounds good.

• 18:41Jen Cohen?

  But yeah, but how do you, like you, and then you went to win again and you like even-

• 18:45Speaker 02

  I, I, I think, I think some people are, are just better equipped. I was equipped to, to not quit, right? And so I didn't quit when I was diagnosed and I fought for my life and I got my life back. And then I fought to win the tours and then, and then that got, that story got edited.

• 19:04Jen Cohen?

  Well, tell me about how, how did you even get, how did, were you able to ever train like that again? Never mind, like, people can't, people who are the healthiest as have ever, I can't even imagine like cycling like around the block 40 times. How do you win-

• 19:16Speaker 02

  The body comes back.

• 19:18Jen Cohen?

  To that level? Like, your cancer was all over your body, right? Like you-

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then the cancer, I, I mean, clearly.

• 19:25Jen Cohen?

  Clearly, yes.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  But I also, I was racing sick, probably, I don't know for how long, but, but long enough to, in my mind, I thought, well, God, I've been sick for, I mean, I did the Olympics in Atlanta, two months before I was diagnosed.

• 19:40Jen Cohen?

  I know it's

• 19:40Speaker 02

  So a part of me, part of me, if you're in, and, and, and I'm just, I was just telling myself this, but I was like, wow, I've been sick for a long time. Like, just imagine when I get healthy and I get all of this stuff out of my body. Wow. Like, I'm gonna be super badass then. No, I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I was telling myself.

• 19:59Jen Cohen?

  And so did you do, do you do a lot of self-talk? Like, I want to know, like, the intricacies. Like, do you have, do, do you talk to yourself to, like, push you? Do you, like, what's your, like, what do you, what goes on in your brain? Like, is there a narrative? Is there, like, something you're saying?

• 20:12Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't push myself. It's been a minute since I've pushed myself. Like, back then, we trained a lot and pushed ourselves a lot. And I don't do that anymore. So it's

• 20:23Jen Cohen?

  But you kind of, like, you still are training daily.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not, not like that. I'm just, I'm just, I mean, I do, depends if I, if I ride my bike, those, that takes longer. But if, if I train in the gym or go for a run, I mean, it's an hour a day. It's not, you know, it's

• 20:38Jen Cohen?

  No, I know. It's not. But what I'm saying, like, okay, after you, when you got diagnosed with cancer and then you beat cancer, what was the process to get back to be like a champion again? Like, what did you do? What was the, what was the mental?

• 20:51Speaker 02

  I just went straight back to

• 20:52Jen Cohen?

  It didn't even

• 20:53Speaker 02

  No, I went, I mean, I took a year off. I took the year, I was, all of 1997, I didn't raise. So then I, I just, but when I went back, I straight back in.

• 21:03Jen Cohen?

  My, my question is, I think that people, like, are, well, this is what I want to know, is like, when I, you, just overall, like, if you are succeeding in a lot of different areas, like, business, you've become like a rock star, and like, with, with Next Ventures, the, the cycling, like, it seems like everything that you do, there is like a massive level of success. Okay? So to me, that's, that is indicative of someone's, like, mindset and will and determination and ambition and all these things, right? My question is really, not even a question, but is that just something you've always been, like, that's just who you are? And that's just how you, like, how does somebody, is there, like, is there, like, actionable things that people can do to become better that way?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  I mean, look, I grew up in a, in a, with a mother, a single mother, more or less a single mother, that had me very young. And

• 21:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  She overcame a lot of odds, different than my obstacles. And she wasn't an athlete, but she just didn't, she never quit. Like, she was constantly

• 22:05Jen Cohen?

  Pushing.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Just trying to defy the odds, right? Whether it's having a kid at 17 years old in Dallas, Texas, right? With, you know, with no, obviously, she was in a relationship, but had never met my father. I said, but this was not an ideal situation. But she didn't care. I mean, she just, she was dead set on having me. And, and, you know, we grew up poor. And I say grew up poor. I mean, we didn't grow up, we, at that time, we were very poor. Then she remarried and that relationship wasn't perfect. And, but she's stuck, you know, she just, she's just, she's tough. She has grit. She's overcome a lot. I do think that, that you either, that's just a part of my DNA,

• 22:49Speaker 02

  but I have also absorbed a lot of that just by having watched her as, as I grew up and we grew up together, right? Keep in mind, my mom was 34 years old when I graduated high school.

• 23:01Jen Cohen?

  Wow, wow.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  So I, I think there's, there's a lot of that. I mean, if I look back to my diagnosis and if I look back to the last decade, I attribute a lot of that to my mother, right? Who overcame a lot of long odds, you know, to build a life for herself and to build a life for me.

• 23:19Jen Cohen?

  Would you say, what would be the one thing that people don't know about you? Is there something that you would say?

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Oh, I, I think the, I think when people get to know me, I'm a lot goofier than people. Like, I don't take myself, I, I take myself seriously, but most of the time I, I do not take myself very seriously. So it's like a good example, right? Is obviously my kids know me, right? They're like, my dad is, is, is a goofball.

• 23:46Jen Cohen?

  Would they say that about you?

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure, for sure. But my, but their friends would, would be like, oh, my God, you're, you know, and then they get around their friend's father, who's me. And they're like, wow, this, that's not what I expected. Like, this guy's, is a goof.

• 24:02Jen Cohen?

  I totally know what you mean.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm way more playful.

• 24:05Jen Cohen?

  And you don't take yourself seriously.