Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Penn Badgley. Penn opens up about his early insecurities, his take on casual dating, and his unconventional approach to fatherhood. He also reveals how he really feels about his most iconic roles: Dan Humphrey (shoutout to those sideburns) and Joe Goldberg. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:43Alex Cooper?

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• 1:28Alex Cooper?

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• 2:10Alex Cooper?

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• 2:55Alex Cooper?

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• 3:14Alex Cooper?

  What is up daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

• 3:23Alex Cooper?

  Penn Badgley, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 3:25Alex Cooper?

  Um, I'm so happy you're here. So you said this is not normally what you would wear.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Is this what anyone would normally wear?

• 3:33Alex Cooper?

  No. What would you usually be wearing?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  I mean, just my clothes.

• 3:37Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, like jeans, sweats?

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no, I mean, no, I would, I would wear, I would wear. So, I mean, the real answer, I have like three pairs of pants that I wear, that I wear on rotation. Two of them are in all of the TikToks I've ever made or, or in my pocket. I mean, it's just, there's green pants and there's gray pants.

• 3:56Alex Cooper?

  Okay, everyone that follows you is like, oh, the green pants, I know the green pants.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  All I, so I think I got them right before the pandemic. This is, this is true. And then, you know, fatherhood pandemic, the fact that my job, I'm never wearing my own clothing when I'm working. I mean, and you know what they are? They're J. Crew. Unpaid. I wouldn't ever.

• 4:17Alex Cooper?

  He's a J. Crew boy.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  I'm not a J. Crew boy at all, but they're just pants, you know?

• 4:21Alex Cooper?

  Okay, love that for you.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Alex Cooper?

  Um, your wife is pregnant?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:25Alex Cooper?

  With twins?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:26Alex Cooper?

  Are you ready?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Who could be? This, the, um, yeah, as ready as we could be.

• 4:33Alex Cooper?

  When you found out that you were having twins?

• 4:37Alex Cooper?

  What was the reaction and emotion?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Really got to stretch for this coaster here.

• 4:41Alex Cooper?

  I know, I'm like, I fucked up. No, I fucked up.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's okay. It's okay.

• 4:46Alex Cooper?

  Okay, reaction.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Well, so my wife is a doula. So, so birth is a big part of our world. You know, for me, a 38 year old man, I think I'm probably, you know, I happen to be, birth is just, it's like, it's in my, you know what I mean? So, so actually, when we thought we were just gonna have one, and we were close to being like, no, we're good.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  You know, we were, we were close. Then we decided, no, you know what, let's, let's try it. And um,

• 5:19Speaker 01

  I think we thought maybe one would be, you know,

• 5:24Speaker 01

  we know what it is. We have two. We're surrounded by children and people who are having children. That's just kind of, I think it was like, we knew, like, yeah, it's gonna be a lot. But it's felt like a known quantity. And then it was just, it was like, oh, oh, this is how it will be very new.

• 5:44Alex Cooper?

  Here we go.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:45Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, adding two.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:47Alex Cooper?

  You guys are, you guys are gonna do incredible, but you're brave.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's as, it's, it's, it's great. I mean, actually, to be honest, like, when we see the sonograms right now, seeing them together. So first of all, as an only child, you know, it's very touching to see them already so together. They're so together, they're just like, there was one shot of them where they looked like they were just hanging out in a hot sub because they both were like up like this. Or at least in the sonogram, I don't know which direction was north or south here because, you know, it's its own world, but

• 6:20Alex Cooper?

  They looked like they're having their time.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  They were just, you know, they were sitting across from each other.

• 6:24Alex Cooper?

  Just like talking shit.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Sort of like twitching. You know, I mean, it's, and they're, they're in a different position every time we see them.

• 6:30Alex Cooper?

  What do you think is your best dad quality currently?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  What comes to mind is listening and then, and then saying, I'm sorry. You know, those are two things that I think.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Fathers are not, you know, when men are getting a lot of shit.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  And these days, when are they not?

• 6:56Speaker 01

  But you know, men can be good people. They can be great people. They can be great dads. Dads can be great. We, and unfortunately, there are enough of us who have shown us otherwise, right? But fathers can be great. And, and I think, but what we do not

• 7:15Speaker 01

  attribute to a father much, I think is saying something like, I'm sorry. And like really listening and like, you know what I mean?

• 7:21Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I think that's like, almost like baseline. People are like, oh no, just like go to your mom if you have a mom because like the dad's not gonna listen. So I think it's like, nice that you're acknowledging.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  I'm trying to be opposite there. Just, just in those, at least, I mean, look, there are other things that I do. It's not like I can only listen and say, I'm sorry. That would imply I'm just constantly messing up and.

• 7:41Alex Cooper?

  I know, I'm like, damn, you're just constantly like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  You and I'm sorry.

• 7:46Alex Cooper?

  That's also what you have to do to your wife. That's whenever I, whenever I'm having a problem with my husband, he'll be like, what was I even thinking? I'm so sorry. I love you. I've learned better.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  I like, what was I even thinking? That's a nice.

• 7:58Alex Cooper?

  Okay, your podcast obviously focuses on people's like middle school experiences. So I kind of want to like, go back a little bit today with you.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 8:07Alex Cooper?

  Let's go back to yours. How would you have described yourself as a kid?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  That's actually, I've thought about this. I'm not sure exactly how I saw myself. I think, well, what I can be sure about is that I was in that particular period of 12, 13, 14. I was a bit horrified by like, very, very, very self-conscious, very extremely self-conscious.

• 8:29Alex Cooper?

  About what?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  I mean, probably mostly the way that I looked and then also the way that I sounded. So those are the two.

• 8:36Alex Cooper?

  How did you sound?

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Well, before my voice changed, like anybody, I had a bit of a high and nasally voice.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  And so also I moved to LA to become an actor when I was 12. So I was simultaneously pursuing, you know, this career. And I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into, but.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I think that made me self-conscious. So, I mean, everybody, I think a lot of people go through this and a lot of times it's just, it just is what it is. I was, I was pretty chubby and then there was a period where I was fat, you know? And that happened to have a big impact on my, on the way I felt about myself. It did, it really did.

• 9:21Alex Cooper?

  Cause did you feel that way when you were alone? Or was it a lot of like people saying things about you? Cause I feel like when you're at that age, it's always like kids are gonna make you realize things that you're like, wait, my parents made me think I was great.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, and for me, you know, the truth is like, I was a pretty constitutionally skinny kid and it was this period where my parents' marriage was falling apart. We lived, we were really isolated. We lived in the middle of, uh, we were on a mountain in, outside of a town called Issaquah in Washington State. Um, it might be quite developed now, but in the mid nineties it was not. And, uh, we had, we had moved very suddenly from the east coast, very far away. So, uh, so, and my cat died on the third day of moving there, just didn't come home. So I was like eight, I think, and, um, and I was just, you know, had no social outlet.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Vibe at home was, uh,

• 10:19Speaker 01

  yeah, it was, you know, what happens when divorce is like quite needed? So, yeah, I was, I was sad as, as kids can be, I think as many kids, you know, are as you're kind of coming into your consciousness.

• 10:33Alex Cooper?

  But also I feel like, cause I talked to my mom about this a lot, cause she was an only child and her parents didn't have a great relationship. So I feel like it makes you grow up pretty quickly because you are like, it's almost like you're one in three adults. It feels like immediately.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's that part definitely like.

• 10:50Alex Cooper?

  Which is not normal.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, or I mean, it's normal for, you don't know it's not normal.

• 10:55Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. So being an only child from your experience growing up, like what, how would you have described your relationship with your parents?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  That's an interesting question, cause I, cause.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  From 12 years old on, my memories feel a bit void of parents, even though my mom was present. I mean, I moved with my mom to LA. Like, in fact, when I visit here now, you know, it's surreal when I'm in places that I used to be when I was very young, you know?

• 11:30Alex Cooper?

  So you moved when and your parents got divorced around the time that you moved here for acting?

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:35Alex Cooper?

  And did your dad stay?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:37Alex Cooper?

  And your mom picked up and left with you?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, a lot of actor kids, this is the case. Because like, why is a kid gonna truly pick up and leave with one parent? Like, what's... You're not leaving like a flourishing family life behind. So that tended to be the pattern.

• 11:52Alex Cooper?

  Is there like a core memory that comes to mind when you think about like a moment from your childhood where you remember being like, "Oh, my parents don't have the healthiest relationship"?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  I mean, it's so early, so early. I don't even know. When I was 14, I saw my parents dance together. It was long after they'd been divorced.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  It was at a function for a show I was on. It's like a...

• 12:34Speaker 01

  And they danced together for one song. And they sort of hugged and they... But what it was, it demonstrated a closeness that I didn't realize until years later when I was like, "Why do I remember this and think about it every now and then?" And because it made me uncomfortable. It made me feel a type of way that I couldn't identify.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  But that is to say, they demonstrated a closeness that I had like, you know, never seen them have. You know, they're two people who, they came together like...

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Who, you know, their parents and the parents, like they're, they're a generation where like they didn't have, they had so little modeling of like,

• 13:17Speaker 01

  not only did they not have modeling, they didn't have, um, like the consciousness that we have now around, you know, relationship dynamics, like, listening and I'm saying, I'm sorry, you know, like they, there was, these things didn't exist. Um, you know, they just, they like, it's amazing that they stayed together long enough to have me and that they were like, yeah, and also let's keep doing that. Like, I don't, I, you know, it all, it, they don't have a good answer for it. They, yeah.

• 13:45Alex Cooper?

  That's really interesting about the dancing thing because I feel like I've talked to people before who are like, I literally, because obviously you either replicate or try to do the opposite of what you watch your parents do from a young age. So for you to like, watch a form of intimacy at 14 years old and be like, what are, this is so strange to watch them dance and like hug and be cordial. Like when you were younger, did you ever have romantic relationships that you felt comfortable being overly affectionate?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, actually, so this is, um, I think, at least for boys, I don't, I don't know.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  I know that it's not just me. I mean, I actually was, because I was starved for

• 14:29Speaker 01

  many kinds of intimacy, the one kind that I

• 14:34Speaker 01

  understood, didn't understand it, was sexual and romantic intimacy. So, I mean, I think as soon as those, um, I was going to try to think of a word other than juices, but you know, those chemicals were flowing. That's, that's, uh, that's when I just craved that create, I mean, you know, and again, show me a teenager who doesn't really, I mean, I think it's, it's of course quite typical, but I think particularly for, for people who grow up in homes where there isn't a lot of intimacy, I think what they crave is that, you know, you crave what you see on the, in the notebook or whatever. We didn't have that then, but you, the Titanic. You know, I'm not a romantic movie or romantic comedy person at all.

• 15:17Alex Cooper?

  Feels like you are, Ben.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  But, but see, but the Titanic, or no, it's Titanic, isn't it? It's not the Titanic.

• 15:22Alex Cooper?

  Titanic, cut the bow.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  So Titanic, um,

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Like I loved and I didn't see it a bunch the way everybody did, but I just thought like, like, good, good Lord, I wanted that, you know, that you want, you, love comes in so many forms, so many forms, and it's actually tragic for us all that we have conflated it so completely with just sex. But, you know, I mean, from a very young age, that's what I wanted.

• 15:50Alex Cooper?

  I think that also makes sense because, because you didn't have anything like that at home. Then I think once you taste it and you like, feel it, okay, where these analogies are.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  The juices.

• 16:02Alex Cooper?

  The juices.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Let me just go ahead and reach over here for my tea and bring it on the long trip around.

• 16:07Alex Cooper?

  Fuck, but I think then, once you probably felt that you're like, gonna crave it because it's like, I can't get any of that at home, whereas maybe someone like, was like, okay, I've seen it. I know it's out there again, where once you.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  This is, I'm gonna go right there. I want that thing.

• 16:20Alex Cooper?

  Yes, yes.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:22Alex Cooper?

  Now, being a father, I'm curious if there were any like behaviors that you witnessed as a kid in your house that you are never want your kids to experience.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it would be just the, it would be the, um,

• 16:40Speaker 01

  the vibe, the, there's the,

• 16:44Speaker 01

  saying, calling it coldness, I feels a bit unforgiving to my parents. It's, it's not, because that sounds like there's, um, intent behind it, you know, and awareness, but it just, uh, just, uh, there wasn't a lot of life at home. There wasn't a lot of life.

• 16:58Alex Cooper?

  But I get what you're saying. I also think it's like, as you get older, I'm sure you've realized like, it's weird when you have resentment of your childhood. And then as you become a parent, so I've heard, it's like, oh, wow.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Well, that's all it is.

• 17:12Alex Cooper?

  They were really doing the best that they could.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:14Alex Cooper?

  And it doesn't mean that you didn't experience what you experienced, but it also puts more in perspective. Like, it wasn't so fucking personal. Sometimes, I can't speak for everyone's experience.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's of course, plenty of nuance in there, but, but the, the basic principle you're pointing to is what I was saying, like, that's all it is. It's like, you're constantly, as a parent, you're constantly being brought in touch with, oh, that, yeah, I, I didn't have that. I mean, you know, I've said this elsewhere a few times.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  But the first time that I needed, that I felt that I needed to say I'm sorry to my, now four and a half year old, I think he was. Three, maybe freshly three.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  It was a minor moment. He would not get in the car seat, as any parent knows. Anybody who hasn't has kids is like, oh, shut up about the fucking car seats. Yeah. Is it really? Yeah. It's like, yeah, it can be hard.

• 18:12Alex Cooper?

  It's a battle.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  It's really. And by the way, it's reasonable for them to not want to get in the car seat. They're strapped in, they can't. And if they think it's going to be two hours, like to them, that's a lifetime. That is a lifetime. You see how many phases a kid, a three year old goes through in two hours? You want them to sit strapped in the entire time?

• 18:31Alex Cooper?

  Good luck.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  So I'm with three year olds on this, but I had to get him in. And I, and I started to get impatient, you know? Go figure. And, um.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  But the key things to remember were for me, like

• 18:48Speaker 01

  fatherhood, parenthood until about two and a half. It was like in terms of losing my patience, like it didn't happen. It didn't happen. I'll lose patience with my wife. Hi, baby. Sorry.

• 19:00Alex Cooper?

  Love you.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  But, uh, love you so much.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  But with the kid, with, with, with a child that's small, I mean, they're just like, what are you gonna do? So I noticed that I was losing my patience in a way that was like, I was speaking to him in a way that I'd never spoken to before, which is kind of short. You know? Like a little dickish.

• 19:20Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  You know?

• 19:21Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I'm being dick.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Let's not talk about his behavior. Dick of the century. Okay. He was being crazy.

• 19:28Alex Cooper?

  But he's allowed to be.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:29Alex Cooper?

  You gotta keep it together. You're the adult.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so I was starting to, like, I was starting to take it like as though he's not three. And that's what we all do as parents. Eventually you lose perspective and you're like treating them like somebody who's much older. And that's not fair. That's not fair to them at all.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  So I was being really impatient with him. Getting him into the car seat. I don't, at this point, I don't remember what I, I, I, I think I definitely wasn't being like,

• 19:55Speaker 01

  you know, I wasn't doing that. That's a bit rough, but I was speaking in a way that was just, you know?

• 19:59Alex Cooper?

  Not as loving dad.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:00Alex Cooper?

  As you usually are.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  And then I, and then I think I realized it as I was doing it because it was a new thing.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  And, and I just said,

• 20:12Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  I'm being really impatient with you, aren't I? And then he just went, yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And it immediately broke.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  And I, and I said, you're right. I don't like the way I was speaking to you.

• 20:32Alex Cooper?

  You still have to go in the car seat?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like, would you still gotta get in the fucking car seat? No, no, no.

• 20:38Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  It was really, it was like, he relaxed.

• 20:41Alex Cooper?

  It was so real, though.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Buckled them in.

• 20:43Alex Cooper?

  And you guys went on your journey.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:44Alex Cooper?

  See?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  But when this happened, I realized like, oh. You know, in terms of my mom, like.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  She probably, I don't, I don't know, I'm not sure. But certainly in terms of my father, I think I.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Just, just their generation, the way they parented all of us. I was just like, oh, that was new. You know, me apologizing to a three year old as his father, like. I was like, that's new.

• 21:12Alex Cooper?

  But you're like, I taught myself that while my dad never taught me that.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Right. And that was a beautiful moment. That was like, you know.

• 21:19Alex Cooper?

  That is beautiful because it means you're like changing generational, what you're gonna now and still in your kid. And then if he ever has kids, he hopefully will do that.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:44Alex Cooper?

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• 23:08Alex Cooper?

  When I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat, sometimes you can just actually become so, you're angry. You're like, I am busy, I'm hungry, I'm getting hangry, I'm getting angry. What can I eat? I need something hot and delicious and low maintenance. Well, introducing Stouffer's dinners are not only delicious, they're done in a flash. Serve up their classic lasagna, chicken pesto or carbonara for two. Whatever you're craving, Stouffer's is your hot, delicious, easy meal fantasy. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. You can see all the delicious options at stouffers.com. You though, talking about going at 12 years old to Los Angeles with your mom. I feel like whenever people think about actors,

• 23:52Alex Cooper?

  you sharing, you know, you're like, I was chubby, I was going through it. My voice, like I was insecure. Then people would be like, so what the fuck are you talking about? Then you become an actor, like people associated like actors who like love the way that they look and like to look at themselves. It's like a lot of vanity.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 24:10Alex Cooper?

  But then I feel like in a beautiful way.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 24:12Alex Cooper?

  What are you talking about, Penn? No, but you know what I'm saying? Like, and then I think the beauty of having podcasts like this is like, you learn things about, most people get into the arts because it's a way to like find themselves.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah.

• 24:24Alex Cooper?

  A lot of times people pour themselves into it because they're running from something else.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 24:27Alex Cooper?

  So when you go to LA, were you still quite insecure?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the insecurity hadn't even really found its full expression until I moved here because I was 12 and.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  You know, I hadn't yet started making money in a, in a, in a, in a livelihood, a practice, a craft that would come to depend more and more on the way that I looked.

• 24:53Alex Cooper?

  How did you even get into acting?

• 24:55Speaker 01

  So when we moved to that mountain outside of Issaquah, having lost my cat, wasn't enrolled in school because it was the end of the school year. And so the some, the long summer was ahead of us. Again, parents like, not the tightest.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  My mom clearly saw like, oh, this is, we need something, you know, we need like neighbors, our, our, our closest neighbor was a mile away. Like our, our, um, driveway was like two dirt tracks up there. It was like a real mountain. That's why the cat died. There's cougars and bears and all kinds of, yeah.

• 25:33Alex Cooper?

  And you're an only child. You're sitting in a house. Your parents are basically mid divorce. You got no cat. You're not feeling too good about yourself.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you.

• 25:41Alex Cooper?

  So just, just to remind you.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 25:44Alex Cooper?

  No, putting all the.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  It was awful.

• 25:47Alex Cooper?

  And then we need to find Penn something to do for the summer.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  So.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Auditioned. I don't know what the competition was like. No memory of that. I got the role. Winthrop a music man. It's a, it's a significant role. He's a boy with a lisp who's very quiet and shy. I was very quiet and shy. Um, but he comes out of his shell when he learns to, I play something in a, in a band. Um, so I loved just the camaraderie of, and mixed stages too, you know, it's like kids and adults and everybody in between. And it was, it was just like, it's not like going to school at all. It was, it was really, really exciting. It was, um, and on opening night, just getting that feedback, you know, the

• 26:35Speaker 01

  excitement of being on stage, you know, it creates stakes and structure, which everybody I think needs a bit of to thrive, like, um.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  I loved it. I loved it. I actually said that night, like, I want to do this for the for the rest of my life. You know, that little boy was not aware of all the implications, or what it would take, or that it was even that it was ever feasible, that it was actually delusional and like basically not feasible.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  But yeah, so and and people very quickly. And why do they do this? I don't know, but if you're in any town, it's close to like a major city, like a satellite for LA, like there's Seattle, there's there's Florida, like Tampa, a lot of kids come from Florida. There's other places, maybe Chicago. But if you're in a certain town, people will say, you should try going to LA. I mean, it's not good advice. It's just not good advice. Are you gonna make it?

• 27:29Alex Cooper?

  You did.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Are you gonna? Yeah.

• 27:30Alex Cooper?

  What?

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Let's see. I mean, it's, I'm not.

• 27:33Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I'm the 1% Alex?

• 27:35Speaker 01

  It's it's a but this is the thing, though. It is to a degree a fluke. It just is.

• 27:39Alex Cooper?

  You think?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  I'm not saying there's no talent involved. I'm just saying those of us who make it are something of the exception that proves the rule because the rate of failure in this town is high. It's high. It's high. It's it's a bit tragically high for people who want to make art and want to do things, want to perform. And it's like, you know,

• 28:00Speaker 01

  it's to me, it's not just, it's not a meritocracy. You know what I mean? I don't know what industry would be, but.

• 28:04Alex Cooper?

  When do you think you started making money off of?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  I know when I did. I was 12.

• 28:09Alex Cooper?

  Oh, um.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  I started working that summer.

• 28:11Alex Cooper?

  Off of acting?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:13Alex Cooper?

  Was there a point in your life where you turned into the breadwinner for your family?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, very early.

• 28:17Alex Cooper?

  How early?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  15.

• 28:19Alex Cooper?

  How did that shift the dynamic?

• 28:21Speaker 01

  So not the whole family.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  And I wasn't, I mean, my mom was fully capable of working, but she needed to be present. So it was like this dynamic. I mean, I was financially independent by 15. I wasn't always the breadwinner and but but but then, you know, by the time, but like I've always, I've always needed to and wanted to provide support for my parents since then.

• 28:44Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, that's really nice. I feel like you then, kind of, from what I've researched, like you went on to really do a lot of like the awkward, nice guy roles, like pretty consistent.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  When has that stopped?

• 28:55Alex Cooper?

  I guess it hasn't stopped until you became a murderer, but.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he's an awkward, nice guy.

• 29:01Alex Cooper?

  Okay, that's actually fair. There's kind of a through line, even though he's a fucking psychopath. But that through line is like, pretty consistent, right? That's fair to say. Were you looking for those roles, or did they naturally just come to you because it's a little bit of who you are?

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Who wants to be?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  No. Well, so, so here's the thing. That's true, starting at 20 years old. So I had eight years of near financial independence, professional work. I was working, I was tired of television by the time Gossip Girl came around. I famously said, or I don't know famously, but I've said many times, you know, I initially turned the role down and I didn't, and I didn't just like kind of turn it down. I mean, I said, I said, so grateful you thought of me, wish you well, but no thanks. And they went on to try and cast the whole thing and cast Dan and, and they, and they, and they evidently could cast everybody but, but Dan.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  But so, you know, by the time, the point is not about Gossip Girl. The point is that by the time I was 20, I was like, I was feeling real disillusioned and dried up and tired of being in Hollywood, of acting. I've been doing it my entire, since I was 12. When you're 20 years old and you've been doing something professionally since you were 12, that's your life. That's like your whole life. And I was, I was, yeah, I, I was.

• 30:22Alex Cooper?

  You were done because you didn't like it anymore?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  That also, I just was not, you know, I came real close, really close to like a number of great roles in these great independent films and I wouldn't get them.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, great. But you know what? This is, I really wanted to try my hand at music. That had been my passion since, you know, but

• 30:45Speaker 01

  the point is, I was real, uh, I, I had, I had an.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  A tiredness about me at 20 that I think is not typical for a 20 year old because I've been working for so long, you know?

• 31:01Alex Cooper?

  I feel like every time I've talked to like child actors, that's something that is lost, I think, in in the way that we look at these young kids. Like, I always look at like Lindsay Lohan. I'm like, it's incredible how long she worked while all of us were like picking her noses and like being in school and like doing fucking nothing essentially, but like just being a child. And so to have worked your whole youth and then into adolescence and then all of it, like, I'm sure you're like, I never want to work another day in my life. I'm so exhausted. When you were supposed to be having fun, you were working. But then to turn down Gossip Girl is like what now we know what a success it was, but at the time, like, were you also uninterested in the role that you were gonna play? Or was

• 31:46Alex Cooper?

  it just because you were like, I'm so fucking tired. I don't want to do this anymore?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  With all due respects, and I mean, I told the creators this at the outset. So it's not, and it's not no shocker. Like, I was not interested. And and that's, you know, that's just, I think that's fair to say. That's that's fair to say. That's what I have to say about that.

• 32:04Alex Cooper?

  Okay, so obviously.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  You can ask me more, but I'm not gonna.

• 32:08Alex Cooper?

  You obviously ended up changing your mind. So like, what changed?

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Well, I was close to broke. Although that was not, I was looking forward to like figuring that out. I'd had a pretty Spartan year behind me, you know, I was like, I, I, I was enjoying my way of life. But the future was real unknown. And I think, you know, it's not like I could go live with my parents for, there's the stakes. The stakes is high.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Right? So, and you know, a few people, I mean, my manager certainly spoke about it in a way that he thought it was a good idea.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Few key people close to me.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  And then it was, it was New York City. Getting to live in New York City where I've now lived since. And which is my home and I'd always wanted to live there.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  You know, you also think about a show like that.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  It's hard to grow beyond it.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be forty next year. Wait, I'm thirty. You lose track at some point.

• 33:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, where are we?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Eight, am I thirty eight? I'm thirty eight. Uh, so I'm gonna be thirty nine this year. Next year, I will be forty. I will still be answering questions about this. Show I decided to do when I was twenty, you know what I mean? And whatever, that is what it is. Like certainly, that's fine. But um, it's, it sets you on a certain track. That you have to, in a sense, resist. You have to learn how to work with it, interface with it. Otherwise, it just sort of takes you on its ride.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  So you know, you're, you're kind of playing. You're, you're taking a huge risk, I think, in a way, actually. You know, if, if. It's gonna set you up to do only some things and you're gonna have to fight to try and do other things. You know?

• 34:27Alex Cooper?

  I think that's so understandable for people like I get, I think people in this industry really get that. And I think people that are consumers don't see that whatsoever. They're like, there are gonna be people that watch this and then are like. Penn, what the fuck are you talking about? You run the biggest show in the world. Like, I will forever love you. Like, oh my gosh, that show I re-watch every year. But to you, I think a lot of actors understandably have that where like you don't want to be typecast into this like. One thing that people think of you as.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:56Alex Cooper?

  Cause then you wanna, you wanna keep growing.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, yeah, you wanna have some autonomy and you sign, so also signing onto a television show, what you do is you have to sign a six-year contract. There's no other way to do it. You don't, you know, you haven't seen any of those scripts. You're just like, alright. So you know. Yeah, I mean, it's.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I chose to do it.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Cause it felt like it could be an exciting new experience. And, and I'm, yeah, no, I mean, look, I'm grateful for it. Now it took, but it took some time because I, because keep in mind, I started in a place where I was like tired disillusioned. I was literally compared to the others, like oddly, I was like a veteran, you know, and I was just kinda like, eh.

• 35:41Alex Cooper?

  Here we go. This fucking show.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I'd done like four series before that, you know?

• 35:47Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Something that I love though, is I think what we, and this is goes past acting is like, there are stages in your life where you have to have time to step away from it, to have any bit of love and respect for what you did at that time. There are people that look back at what they did in high school and they're like, actually fucking stab me and kill me before you even bring that up. Please look away. But then all of a sudden you look back and you're like, oh, wow.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:16Alex Cooper?

  With now more perspective and time, I like look back and I can see positives from that. So let's pay a little bit of, you know, respect to Dan.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:25Alex Cooper?

  We'll go back to the childhood.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  I mean, how long we got?

• 36:27Alex Cooper?

  Childhood. No, no, no, we're gonna go back to, we're gonna get into trauma. We're gonna get into all of it.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Great.

• 36:30Alex Cooper?

  Dan's gonna be a breeze.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Great.

• 36:32Alex Cooper?

  Dan is a little bit of a breeze. You're gonna be like, let's talk more about Dan Humphrey. Rufus, okay. In what ways did you relate at all to Dan Humphrey?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not that hard. He's like, he's, isn't he kinda, he's not quiet, is he?

• 36:45Alex Cooper?

  He kinda was, but then.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  He's TV quiet.

• 36:48Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  The same way he's TV like ugly and poor. He's the quiet, ugly, poor kid. Like, okay, guys, sure, sure, sure.

• 36:57Alex Cooper?

  Talk to me though, the sideburns at the time.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness. If I could have seen in real life the side of my head, I guarantee you, I would have never, never.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not just, not just like give Dan his flowers. Let's give, let's give young Penn his, a little bit of something here too. You know, you know, in the early 2000s, it was like, it was like bootcut jeans with the low rise waist. Um.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a look to a sideburn that I always wanted, like the second I could grow facial hair, which happened to be early, you know, it was like I, I wanted them and um, it was just an aesthetic thing. That's like you, I only see my face from here, you know, I only see just this little bit of, you know, this little bit of, little bit of contouring. It's like, gives me some age, right? Have a baby face, always wanted to look older. Now those sideburns, did, why didn't anybody say?

• 38:03Alex Cooper?

  They were so large and thick and, and the width.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Well, and by the way, I didn't like, I didn't, I didn't like do that. That's the way they are.

• 38:12Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, but they were kind of like pronounced because you didn't have a beard.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Well, right, but because I had to shave every day on that show, you know, it's like, I was never allowed for gradation or, or, or a little bit of growth. So it's like, look, this is me starting to shave here.

• 38:25Alex Cooper?

  To the point though, that someone could assume that they were a prop. Like you stuck those bad boys on every day. No, they were so pronounced.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  I mean, who allowed that? So many people allowed that.

• 38:39Alex Cooper?

  It looked amazing. And I definitely focused on it quite often. And like the first season, that shit was popping. Oh my God. Okay. So we relate a little bit to him. How are you different than Dan?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  I mean, in every way.

• 38:51Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Fuck him. We love Dan.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Do you?

• 38:56Alex Cooper?

  Um, he went through his phases where I would be like lonely boy, like I do love you now. And then I'd be like, Dan, shut the fuck up. Like,

• 39:05Alex Cooper?

  when he dated Georgina, I was like, you're so done in my eyes. I hate you.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Can, can I ask why?

• 39:12Alex Cooper?

  I'm like, it's Georgina. And meanwhile, you're like, Serena, like I love her. She's great. And I wanted to just,

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:19Alex Cooper?

  But then you came back around.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  To be honest. I can barely remember those storylines. Like, there's a lot of them.

• 39:26Alex Cooper?

  I'll walk you through them. Don't worry.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  There's a lot of them.

• 39:29Alex Cooper?

  Um, who's worse, Dan or Joe?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Well, that's not, I mean, it's Joe.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, was, was, was Dan masturbating in the street and strangling women? I'm sorry to say it so like pronounced, but I mean, why do, why am I, everybody was like, he needs to chill. I'm like, no, bro, you watched it. It's what he does. Why, why when I say it, is it worse than watching it happen? The worst Joe did, or what's his face, Dan, the worst Dan did was.

• 40:01Alex Cooper?

  What's his name? Shut the fuck up.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  The worst Dan did was, I mean, he did like.

• 40:09Alex Cooper?

  We know what he did.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  What he did was sociopathic, just in terms of being Gossip Girl. Sorry.

• 40:13Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, no, actually sociopathic. Can we talk about that?

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Alex Cooper?

  Where were you? What were you wearing? Where were you sitting or were you standing? What was the energy in the room when you found out you were Gossip Girl?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  I was in the hair and makeup trailer room. Don't remember what I was wearing. JFK was not assassinated on that day. It was just me being Gossip Girl. Um, but I remember just being like.

• 40:36Alex Cooper?

  The fuck?

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Okay, like, if I'm trying to, I'm trying to math it, it's tough. All right. And we've got to shoot tomorrow. Cool. Okay. You know, I mean, I found out real late, real late.

• 40:52Alex Cooper?

  You have to tell me. Who you think should have been Gossip Girl?

• 41:12Alex Cooper?

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• 41:58Alex Cooper?

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• 42:41Alex Cooper?

  You can see all the delicious options at stouffers.com.

• 42:46Alex Cooper?

  You have to tell me who you think should have been Gossip Girl.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  It wouldn't have made sense for anybody. We all wanted it to be Derota.

• 42:53Alex Cooper?

  Without a doubt.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:54Alex Cooper?

  Derota would have slapped.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  They needed it to be a series regular. Sorry.

• 42:58Alex Cooper?

  What about Rufus?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Series regular.

• 43:01Alex Cooper?

  That little.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  They needed it. They needed to be one of the core six. Otherwise, nobody cares.

• 43:06Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God, you get to call yourself one of the core six?

• 43:08Speaker 01

  I am, I'm sorry.

• 43:09Alex Cooper?

  That's like a badge of honor.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  I'm not just the core six, I'm Gossip Girl, baby.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  I did it right. It's on the wall like that. You are daddy, I am Gossip Girl, these are facts, okay? Facts.

• 43:24Alex Cooper?

  That's just like the promo right there.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just gave you, I just gave you everything you wanted.

• 43:28Alex Cooper?

  Thank you.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 43:29Alex Cooper?

  Um, okay, wait, when I interviewed Nate Archibald, AKA Chase Crawford, he told me that he and Ed Westwick would like throw these rooftop parties at their apartment. Did you ever get invited and did you ever go?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Did I get invited? Of course.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  It wasn't like they were sending out invites. Yeah, I mean, but I didn't go much. I was not a partier.

• 43:49Alex Cooper?

  Okay, what were you doing during your like rise to fame in New York City?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Sitting at home.

• 43:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Um, good question. I just had a different friend circle.

• 44:00Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  I did.

• 44:02Alex Cooper?

  What were you doing? Like, would you go out?

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Good question. I mean, didn't go out as as much.

• 44:06Alex Cooper?

  Where did you live?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Um, Gramercy.

• 44:09Alex Cooper?

  You weren't going to One Oak?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  I did go to One Oak way after everybody. I'd heard about One Oak a lot. I remember the first time, okay, I

• 44:18Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  I I remember the first time that I had to pay for a bottle. And this was years later, years, years, years later. I took somebody out. They really wanted to go out. They're from Thailand, right? They like they wanted to party like they saw. And I was like, okay, we'll go. I go to someplace. I don't even remember the name of it. I've been to many times. I bought a bottle and I was like, I'm sorry, come again?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  What? Wait, whoa. You know that meme of the guy being like, and the math? Is this flying like this? I was just like, so not only have I been getting free bottles my whole twenties, completely unaware. Again, we're talking about upholding the artifice. This is, this is, I was just like, people pay for this? This much?

• 45:05Alex Cooper?

  And you could go to the grocery store and get a bottle of Grey Goose for like?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  It's criminal. I I I was like, yeah, I feel good about not having done this a bunch. I I mean, stunned me. It stunned me. I was like, people have to save up to waste it this quickly. I mean, good lord.

• 45:24Alex Cooper?

  Wait, but did you have people like, as you had from Thailand? Did you have people thinking because of your life in New York City, being this it guy, you had this access and this lifestyle that you like weren't living in Gramercy?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, certainly for Gossip Girl, certainly certainly because of,

• 45:43Speaker 01

  you know, the early 2000s celebrity city thing. Um.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, well, look, you know, and Crimey River, it's not a big deal. I'm, what I say is as a witness to it, not as a complaint. But I think one of the aspects of celebrity that you deal with constantly is just like, everybody just thinks you're somebody you're not. And, you know, again. It, so that's, so I think that's just always.

• 46:12Alex Cooper?

  So how long did you do Gossip Girl?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Um, six years.

• 46:17Alex Cooper?

  For six years, you're living in New York City, you're in your early twenties, and I feel like a lot of the character that you were being, you were kind of had parallels, right? You were like, living in New York City.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 46:30Alex Cooper?

  You were also living in New York City at the time for the show. You were dating Blake Lively, you were dating Serena on the show. Did you feel like you were able to like, separate your actual job from your reality? And actually able to like, grow in your twenties? Or did it all feel like it was kind of merged?

• 46:48Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a great question, because it was, it was the struggle.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  You know?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  The difference between.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  There are many differences between film and television. One of them is that when you do a film, you do it once. You know? And you kind of give it your all.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And then you move on, whether you want to or not, you know? You, you, you do.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  When you do a television show, you are.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  You're doing it constantly.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Because of the nature of that show, and because of celebrity culture at that time, especially, it was like, you know, I remember like, you know, suddenly the influx of interviews being asked about, like, I remember doing something for, you know, Cosmo Girl or something. That's a thing, right? It's not Cosmopolitan, is it, is it?

• 47:48Alex Cooper?

  Oh, girl, like, it's like, the younger version?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, wasn't it?

• 47:50Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Teen Vogue was, had just come out. You know what I mean? Like, I remember doing interviews for those kinds of publications and being asked about like, you know, dating advice or like, by the way, like, I think I've been on one date in my life, like, spent most of my time just sort of either in a relationship or not.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  And I remember just the feeling of.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Not knowing hmm it's it's but it is this this it's this thing you feel like you're constantly even though no one may be actually asking you to do this you feel like you're constantly needing to prove yourself in some manner otherwise what are you doing I mean you you know what is what is the space this you know this kind of thing has evolved over the course of however long you know but we didn't have podcasts like this back then where you could explore things at length and depth you know they were looking for a quick soundbite and it was just like it was just like uh huh okay

• 48:51Speaker 01

  yeah alright okay alright uh huh it's like you know you don't interfacing in that space can actually feel really crazy and you you you suddenly feel the need to perform and you're just like why can't I just say something fucking normal you know like why can't and so what starts to happen when you're in this one role for a long time the you know the aspect of celebrity being a part of it a huge part of it there there is not enough separation I think for anybody you're seen

• 49:29Speaker 01

  as this person you're called their name out on the street um you also constantly have to be that person at work um and I was 20 I was 21 22 so like I didn't have the emotional maturity to understand to how to differentiate myself just in terms of self-worth like what people seem to think of Dan seemed to be what people thought of me and now I had enough sense enough intelligence enough self-worth enough just you know like I wasn't like losing myself but it bothered me

• 50:01Alex Cooper?

  well and I feel like that makes a lot of sense too because even as you're saying that I'm thinking about like very specific people could look back at their time in like Hannah Montana for example that is the biggest mindfuck for Miley where it's like you're playing yourself but you're secretly a pop star and then you actually become a pop star like you guys were playing these characters that were actually physically living in New York City and it wasn't like you guys were like superheroes it was it was like an actual thing that people could believe you're like excuse me Dan again gossip girl bitch but like you know what I'm saying it's like people it's easier to believe the Friday Night Lights characters and the One Tree Hill characters Like those were just normal characters that people could believe you are as opposed to this like you're playing a doctor.

• 50:46Alex Cooper?

  I guess even still Alan Pompeo was like, people went into fucking surgery because of me, but like people merge it too much. And so when you're walking and you're like, am I more like this or am I this character? It can get fucking confusing.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 50:58Alex Cooper?

  How did you approach your dating life in your twenties?

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Okay. So going back to what we said earlier about uh

• 51:07Speaker 01

  that need for intimacy and really wanting a love that transcends the body, truly. I mean, that's what we all want. But um, never had an approach. I, I, I've had a handful of long relationships.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  And that's, that's about the extent of it. You know, I really did not date, uh, tried, found it.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Not, what's the word? I don't even know. I mean, fulfilling, satisfying. I don't know. It just, I was not good at what felt like dating is.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Dating is a bit of a performance, I think. Right? Isn't it? Like, I mean, it's initially like that's, and I think that's just like, really stressed me out.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  I never had an approach. So trying to like, I, I really longed for that kind of connection, that kind of intimacy.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  I think just as anybody else, you know, kind of something that my show you has been about, which is like the, the, the really toxic misconceptions we have. Like modern love mythology, the way that a relationship should be, the way that you should feel like it does to watch Titanic. You know what I mean? Like that, like, so I, so I wanted that. And so it's, so I also had a very long and difficult relationship in my teen years.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  That marked me and I actually remember thinking when I got out of it at 19, I was just like,

• 52:42Speaker 01

  that was a way to start it all. Oof. I wonder what effects it's gonna have on me, you know, I wonder. So I, um, but then I found myself in my twenties, three different long-term relationships. The third one was with my wife and it's, you know.

• 52:57Alex Cooper?

  Can we talk a little bit about modern dating culture? Cause I know, like you're kind of saying, you have obviously very strong opinions.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  I, I don't know any, the truth is, I don't know anything about what it's like, actually, but I can only speak as a person who hears about it.

• 53:12Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Casual dating.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:15Alex Cooper?

  What do you feel about that for people?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Here's a platform upon which to skewer yourself.

• 53:20Alex Cooper?

  Now just go.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 53:39Alex Cooper?

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• 54:22Alex Cooper?

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• 56:09Speaker 01

  Is it ever casual?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Show me somebody who really, really, truly is casual about it.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  I'm, I'll wait. I'll wait. Not that they act casual about it, that they feel casual about it. I'll wait. Please, I would like to see it in the comments.

• 56:35Alex Cooper?

  I think that some women would ask back to you, Penn. I wish he didn't feel like it was casual.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  I'm telling you that he doesn't understand the ways in which it is not casual for him either.

• 56:49Alex Cooper?

  Cause he may just actually be like, oh, I don't like you. What about that?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  That whole thing. Yeah, that's sorry. So I, you know, I am sorry to women on that one. I can't apologize for men, but I'm just saying like, that is, that is the whole like.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  What is that too? Like, he's just not that into you, that whole thing? That like, what is that? Okay, so if I, if I venture something here.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  One of the reasons I, I didn't like dating was because of what it seemed like, you know, you know, young men, boys, men need to sort of, how they need to behave and act, which always felt real corrosive and toxic and coarse and just calloused.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  At a very young age, if I'm representative of anything that can be generalized, it seemed that it was important and necessary for me as a man to like, you know, it's such a dumb old term that so many young people will be like, what did you just say? But like, sow your wild oats, you know, that kind of thing. I don't know. What, what would, what, what would you say now? What would you, I sound like an 80 year old. What? What would you say?

• 58:05Alex Cooper?

  Say that again?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  So, I'm not gonna say it again. You're like, okay, say it one more time for me, please.

• 58:11Alex Cooper?

  And make eye contact with the camera? Wait, I actually don't know if you said sow.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Sow your or ones.

• 58:19Alex Cooper?

  Sow your oats?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Your wild, it sounds so dumb.

• 58:22Alex Cooper?

  Sow your wild oats.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  When I have to say it.

• 58:23Alex Cooper?

  No, now break it down. Someone Google it.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Sow your wild oats, like to, to, to have sex with a lot of women.

• 58:29Alex Cooper?

  That's probably how they would say it.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 58:31Alex Cooper?

  To have sex with a lot of people.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  A lot of women.

• 58:33Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, like they're fucking around.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:35Alex Cooper?

  Not the oats. It's more just they fuck around.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Well, we think of it like this. You're a, you're, you're, you're a gardener and you've got a, you've got a handful of seed and you're just casting it out into the wilderness.

• 58:45Alex Cooper?

  Yes. Okay. Now, see, this makes more sense. Maybe someone will start saying that in Gen Z and you're gonna trend it back upwards. Okay?

• 58:53Speaker 01

  I might have that power.

• 58:56Alex Cooper?

  Maybe.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 58:57Alex Cooper?

  Okay. So how do you feel about casual sex? Not now, obviously. I know.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Again, again, show me anyone who's able to have it. Truly. And I'm saying, I'm not just saying who does it.

• 59:08Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Plenty of people do it. Show me someone who's actually, what about it is casual? What about it is casual? Again, I'll wait.

• 59:19Alex Cooper?

  I think it's a great question to pose to the girls listening.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:23Alex Cooper?

  People obviously like always say relationships are hard. They're hard work. They're a lot of work. But what does that tangibly look like? To work on a relationship.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  I feel like you have to always be learning new levels of

• 59:44Speaker 01

  listening. Because

• 59:48Speaker 01

  when you get past the, you know, it's anywhere from the six months to two year mark when the juices, so to speak, the chemicals have like sort of run their course. You may have had something that could be like wildly intoxicating. In some cases, that's true. In some cases, it may be less or somewhere in between, but you know, studies show about six to six to 24 months, that runs its course, then you have to enter into a different kind of relationship, one that we don't see a lot, you know, we don't see it modeled a lot hardly ever.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  You know, for reasons that have to do more with like what it takes to tell a good story than than reality, you know, in movies and TV and books and stuff. So then you have to think to yourself like, well, what, what is a relationship for? Not just like, what am I in this for? What is a relationship for?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  That's also a question I pose. What is a relationship for? Not just what is it doing for you? What is it? What is, what are relationships for? You know?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  And at some point, I think you just have to realize that like you, you're developing your own narratives and biases that have to be kind of constantly reshaped. Reach, you know, you have to check in with them. And so it just means it's just another level of listening, you, you know, you, and then once you get into parenting, it's, it's, it just adds like a level of complexity. That's, that's really beautiful and rewarding. So you know, when you're, when you're parenting, actually, sometimes it can be really practical stuff like we have to schedule time for any kind of intimacy we want to have. Like if we want to go out, then he's a B in that calendar and you have to find childcare. You have to, it's all this stuff. It's like, it's, it's very real. And that can actually be a surprising amount of work.

• 1:01:35Alex Cooper?

  Like, cause I was gonna ask, I know, obviously your wife has a child from a previous relationship. And when you were starting to date, that takes another level of commitment and stability. And like, how did you know that was something you were ready for?

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't. And I mean, I think, so like the, when we first met, it was kind of, it was immediate and.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Before we had time to think, I think we just, we wanted to be together in, in the deepest way. And I wanted to be there for her son.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  In whatever way was best. His father's always been in his life.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  But then the cultural dating laws, which I never abided by and never understood, but you were pressuring me. I was like, I need to sow my wild oats. What am I doing with this woman with a child? But you know, I was 28, I think, maybe 27, and I really did think.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Is it right for me, you know, to be, to be getting into a relationship with a woman who has a child like that? It all, so the stakes were always significant there. We both felt that. And so we both actually, after an immediate intense connection and like not thinking about it. We then sort of like, hmm, you know, we need to think about this more.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  And what, I only felt that I was ready once I felt confident to like leave all that. All these notions about what it is to be a man, what it is to date, what I needed to do, who I needed to be sexually. Once I was able to start really leaving that behind.

• 1:03:20Alex Cooper?

  That's beautiful. I also love like, just like hearing the way that you talk about your relationship. It's so nice to hear again, almost back to the way that you're parenting about like listening and apologizing and doing things that are like not typically what you would think like a man is leading with. I think it's really refreshing to hear because I know even you've talked about with your wife that you guys like early on in your relationship took breaks. And I think like so much of what you've shared is quite helpful to people because I know there's people listening who are trying to figure it out. And I think people obviously look up to you. So when you're more open, obviously with what you're comfortable, I think it's nice to hear when you are like willing to share that kind of detail about your relationship.

• 1:04:02Alex Cooper?

  Cause I know that there's people like, holy shit, can I be a good mother, father to another child? Do you know what I mean?

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, um. There's a spiritual component to this, which is.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  Really the thing that is that allowed it to happen. So she and I, you know, we happened to sort of become sober around the same time. We were picking up meditation and and prayer and really trying to live

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  with a different sort of framework, you know, independent of one another, but this was happening kind of at the same time. And I think that was what even created like the opportunity or the the conditions for us to be like, we're dealing with a lot of ways of thinking that are not our own.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Some of those ways of thinking are putting a lot of pressure on us to conform in a way that we've seen before. To either be together in a way that we've seen or to not be together in a way that we've seen. And so and I think I think like maybe the world is ready for a lot of new relationships, like where people are discovering something. And I think in some way like we did, we discovered something.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Like if I if I had advice for young people in it risks being simplistic, you could take it a lot of ways, and I guess it could be misused, but like, I think young people now, we we we waste a lot of time worrying about relationships rather than like being in them and trying, we we waste a lot of time in fear and hesitation and trying to imagine what the other person's thinking like, when is that ever gonna happen? You don't know, you've never known. Stop trying to act like you've ever known.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Never once have you read that person's mind. It's not gonna start now, you know, I mean, like, I don't know, just just the way that relationships function, at least from a pop culture perspective, I think is like so crazy dysfunctional. You know, and like so.

• 1:06:09Alex Cooper?

  That's a good point. It's like definitely a

• 1:06:13Alex Cooper?

  it's definitely become something that I think people almost like aren't even noticing. And it's like these games and it's like, we, we don't have to do any of that. And I definitely felt like I did it. I was a part of the cycle. I was like in it heavy. That's how I literally started this show. It's just like,

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  You don't say.

• 1:06:29Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Well, the name. Yeah. I was like, oh, we're gonna flip it on its head and we're gonna like, do what men do to us. And then eventually when I met my husband.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Doesn't make them happy either.

• 1:06:38Alex Cooper?

  Exactly. And then I literally met my husband and I was like, oh my God, I'm

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  I'm gonna call him daddy.

• 1:06:43Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  But not, sorry, not enough.

• 1:06:45Alex Cooper?

  Never. I will always.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Scratch that from the record. Strike it. Strike it.

• 1:06:49Alex Cooper?

  Take it out. Um, I want to talk to you about you though, because I do think there's a lot of themes in it that are

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  It's all this.

• 1:06:58Alex Cooper?

  Kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Joe is the embodiment of not realizing any of this.

• 1:07:02Alex Cooper?

  Before we get to that, is it true? You also almost turned this role down?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's my thing.

• 1:07:06Alex Cooper?

  Penn, what, why did you almost turn this down?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Same reasons, different, different, you know?

• 1:07:13Alex Cooper?

  Are you overacting? Are we done?

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Am I overacting?

• 1:07:17Alex Cooper?

  Is this your retirement podcast?

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Am I overacting? Yeah, I, I'm, um, no, I mean, I think if anything, I've, I've, I feel like I'm finally coming of age as an actor. Maybe. We'll see.

• 1:07:29Alex Cooper?

  Well, this is the last season, so.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm not done.

• 1:07:33Alex Cooper?

  You're gonna keep going.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Alex Cooper?

  Okay. So you, you eventually were like, yes, I'm gonna do it.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:39Alex Cooper?

  You said before that you think

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  It was not, I should say, it was not such a resolute no.

• 1:07:42Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  I was interested in the premise far more because it was, yeah, it was a different kind of role. I mean, people love to draw the similarities and I'm responsible for drawing some of them between Dan and Joe, but I mean, they're not the same. Like I, like Joe is the show. He is the lens through which everything happens. So being in that position is a completely different experience as an actor. You get to do a whole lot more. Um, and because of

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  the depths to which he goes, there's just a lot, lot more of the spectrum to, to explore as an actor. So it was a, you know, I knew it was an incredible opportunity when I, when I saw it. At the same time, I wasn't sure that I wanted to give expression to this kind of character for an undisclosed period of time. Had it been a film, be like, all right.

• 1:08:26Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Three to six months, done.

• 1:08:28Alex Cooper?

  I do though, as I was just listening to you say that though, it just made me realize like I, which is incredible for you as an actor, like I do think this now is like holding a light to Gossip Girl where it's like,

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:08:40Alex Cooper?

  You now are really known.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Alex Cooper?

  You could be on us one side of the street and someone's gonna know you as Gossip Girl. And then the other side is gonna be Dan, like, uh, sorry, you. And I actually feel like that is the hardest uphill battle to, like we were just saying, to do, to have people not just think of you as one character.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  So now I just want them to think of me as two.

• 1:08:59Alex Cooper?

  Now you got two.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  We gotta work on three.

• 1:09:02Alex Cooper?

  Dan and Joe.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Alex Cooper?

  Now we need another basic name for the third. Who's the third gonna be? Dan, Joe, and?

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Jim.

• 1:09:10Alex Cooper?

  Tim.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Matt.

• 1:09:11Alex Cooper?

  Matt.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  I said Tim, but yeah.

• 1:09:12Alex Cooper?

  Carl.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  That's not basic.

• 1:09:14Alex Cooper?

  I hate that. That's not. Okay, a huge theme is obviously toxic masculinity. How have you approached being a character that is like completely toxic? I mean, beyond toxic. Is it a weird headspace to be in?

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Sometimes no. I mean, at this point, like, you know, I'm done, which is crazy, by the way.

• 1:09:38Alex Cooper?

  Wow.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  It became real easy.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Even early on. But easy even the way like, you know, you might be a marathon runner, but by the end of a marathon, you're like, I'm about to fall over, you know, that's the way it was easy. It was, I mean, he, by the end of every season, by the middle of every season, I usually had back problems because all the expression of rage is just like a lot.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  It was like running, yeah, it was like running a marathon. It's highly athletic every time. Very physical, you know, a lot of, not a lot of speaking on camera. So a lot of just, you know, coming into my body. Physicality of performance was really lovely to explore over the years. And, uh, and then the voiceover was interesting to finding that. I feel like I really found it in the sixth episode of season one.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Where that episode was almost all voiceover and then silent acting.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  And I actually had a mask of prosthetics on.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Because he'd been badly beaten at the end of that, of, of the previous episode. Okay. So, uh, what was your question? No, he was just asking like, is it weird to get into this character that's like really fucked up? So, so, so actually I would say in some ways it's quite

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  fun. There's levels to it. Day to day basis, kind of fun, kind of taxing. Or, or it can be very taxing. Really interesting moments of strangeness that are fun to explore. Overall, it's been quite a, quite a, an endurance test in a way because, because of just the level of commitment that it takes. And then choosing to speak about him in a way publicly, which I think like just adds a level of responsibility to the whole thing. So, you know, it's just, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a lot. The final season. Do you think fans are going to be happy with the ending?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not without its, you know, anything is gonna be, you cannot land a six season or five, five season series. You're gonna fumble here and there, but I think where it really matters. Now unfortunately here I can't talk about it in a way that's like more substantive, you know? Um, cause I wouldn't want to spoil it for you either. Please don't. Um, but it's, I think it's very satisfying for a lot of meaningful reasons. Okay. I'm gonna end the episode.

• 1:12:18Alex Cooper?

  Episode the same way you end some of yours.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:12:21Alex Cooper?

  If you could go back and talk to your 12 year old self, what would you say?

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  I would want to give him a really long hug.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  I would want to be the, the, the man, the, the male figure, the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have. Like up until way too late.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  I want to hold him first.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  So that, as you know, that, that Lady Gaga Bruno Mars song, it's been stuck in my head so much. I want to hold you just for a while. And I will. Okay.

• 1:13:04Alex Cooper?

  Maybe you're going to bring the band back.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Alex Cooper?

  Fuck acting.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Uh, I would love to play music, but you know, I got to find the right people for that. Um, I, I, I would, I would hold him just for a while.

• 1:13:15Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  And, and I would have to get back into the time machine. So then I would die with a smile. I don't know that I could say, uh, you know, what a 12 year old wants to, what a 12 year old needs to hear and will actually listen to is not necessarily what we would say. So I don't know, you know, I mean, the, the essence of what everyone always says is basically like, it's going to be okay. Like you're going to be okay. And I would want to communicate that, but I don't know how he would hear it. So I think I would just hold him and just let him feel like, not only that you're okay, but like, this is the point. If you haven't, if there's anything you're missing, if there's anything you're feeling a way that you're hurting, this is the point. You have to learn somehow.

• 1:13:55Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:13:57Alex Cooper?

  It's beautiful.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Alex Cooper?

  Penn, thank you so much for coming on Call or Daddy. That was truly a pleasure.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  I appreciate it.

• 1:14:04Alex Cooper?

  It's really nice podcasting with podcasters.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 1:14:08Alex Cooper?

  So much easier. 10 out of 10. Thank you.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 1:14:26Alex Cooper?

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  They've got T-Mobile Tuesdays perks, tons of freebies, travel benefits like hotel and rental car savings. They make your phone plan feel like it's actually giving you something back instead of just being another bill that you have to pay every single month. And if you're a student, T-Mobile has student perks plans designed specifically for you. I remember being in college and constantly, literally just looking for ways to save money, understandably. And so, these are the kind of perks I would have absolutely taken advantage of. Students can get things like a $5 movie ticket every month, exclusive access to concerts, okay? And even streaming benefits, so you can always have a reality TV binge night with your girls.

• 1:15:54Alex Cooper?

  And when you're already paying for your phone every month, getting all of these extra benefits on top of it, just, it makes sense, right? For all the reasons to choose T-Mobile, find yours at tmobile.com/membership. Qualifying plan required, visit tmobile.com.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

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