565. Unlocking the Hidden Power Of Body Language | Vanessa Van Edwards

In Answer the Call, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson returns to his roots, taking real calls from real people facing life’s hardest questions. Joined by his daughter, Mikhaila Fuller, the series transforms personal struggles into public insight—offering wisdom, empathy, and clarity in the face of chaos. Coming to DailyWire+ Monday, 8/4. A new podcast series, featured within Dr. Jordan B. Peterson’s episodes on YouTube and including an exclusive member segment on DailyWire+. Have a question you’d like to ask? Share your story here: dailywire.com/answerthecall In this episode, Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with behavioral researcher and bestselling author Vanessa Van Edwards to unpack the secret language of nonverbal communication. From the handshake that builds trust to the subtle cues that sabotage careers, they explore how posture, eye contact, tone, and gesture shape perception—often before a single word is spoken. Drawing on Vanessa’s research and her own journey as a “recovering awkward person” turned master communicator, the conversation spans job interviews, power dynamics, mirroring, charisma, and how to read a room at its most fundamental level. Learn why neck ratios matter, vocal fry backfires, and presence begins long before you speak. This episode was filmed on July 16th, 2025 | Links | For Vanessa Van Edwards On X https://x.com/vvanedwards?lang=en The Science of People website https://www.scienceofpeople.com/ Read “Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication” https://a.co/d/2ZODCds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:30Speaker 03

  Why don't you study for people like you study for chemistry? Why don't you study conversation and body language just like you study for subjects?

• 1:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral researcher, a bestselling author, an instructor at Harvard University, and a self-described recovering awkward person.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  I know I'm a recovering awkward person. I am the person that I try to help. Soft skills can be learned, even if they don't come naturally to you. The amount of a pause, how long should a pause be? How many pumps in a handshake?

• 1:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  You're an expert in nonverbal communication, so size me up.

• 2:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral researcher, a bestselling author, an instructor at Harvard University, and a self-described recovering awkward person. She's the author of "Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication", and her YouTube videos on body language and social skills have received more than 70 million views. We spoke to her today about decoding body language, overcoming awkwardness, and putting your best foot forward. So Vanessa, tell me about my posture and seating in this to begin. You're an expert in nonverbal communication, so size me up.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, I love that we're angled towards each other. I have a little bit of a pet peeve when people are angled half away. You know, have you ever seen that where they have the setup where they're angled away? The brain loves when we're on parallel lines, so I love that even through a camera. Also, a distance that most people don't think about is the distance between our ears and our shoulders. It's my favorite distance. The reason for that is because when we're anxious, when we're afraid, we tend to take up as little space as possible. You'll see people will turtle, where they sink their head down and they tend to creep their shoulder. Exactly, they tend to creep their shoulders up. It's a cue that we don't think about. In fact, we often do it in first impressions. We say, "Hey, nice to see you."

• 3:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right, compressed like that, eh? Yeah, you see people standing up sometimes when they do that. They'll go, "Hi." And they use that uplift, is that what it's called?

• 3:48Speaker 03

  Uptalk.

• 3:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  Uptalk?

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yes, so there's...

• 3:50Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, uptalk.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  There's this trifecta of, I would say awkwardness, that can happen in a first impression, and they all are related to each other. First, we're a little nervous in that first impression, and so we take up as little space as possible. We turtle down, we shrink up. That immediately shortens my vocal power, right? It has less oxygen, I have more tension in my neck. I also tend to clench my jaw, which then creates a little bit less volume, which then makes me sound nervous. And then I use, as you said, uptalk. So, "Good morning, so happy to be here." And what the brain does when it hears an accidental question flexion, it's called a question flexion, so, "My name is Vanessa." I'm here to talk about body language. When you hear me accidentally use a question flexion,

• 4:35Speaker 03

  your brain goes from listening to scrutinizing. The reason for this is because liars often accidentally use the question flexion because they're asking, "Do you believe this?" So if I say to my daughter, "Did you take the cookie from the cookie jar?" And she goes, "No."

• 4:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right.

• 4:55Speaker 03

  That movement, it subconsciously, even if you're not lying, it triggers the part of our brain that goes, "Uh-oh, something's off here." And we don't like to hear people who are questioning themselves because we don't want to feel that we're questioning. And so I think that that trifecta, in that first impression, and you did it beautifully, maximizing this distance, that's the most important. Second, I can see space between your torso and your arm right now. And that is a very subtle signal of you're comfortable enough that you're not trying to block or protect your torso. Anytime we're tight to the side, or tight exactly, we're tight to the side, that signals, "I feel a little bit of discomfort. I want to protect my vital organs, even if we're just cold." And so what I say to people is, "You could be doing this because you're actually nervous,

• 5:40Speaker 03

  but you could be doing it out of bad habit, and a lot of our nonverbal pet peeves are bad habits, or because you're cold, or because you're allergic. It doesn't matter your reason. All that matters is the people who are watching you, they're making a very quick impression of you. And it often happens, I'm sad to say, in less than a second. I'm quickly seeing, "Are we aligned? Oh, he's taking space here. I see space, he's not protective. Oh, and we see a lot of vocal flexibility in that very first word. And our verbal first impression usually happens on hello.

• 6:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  So that uptalk, I see a lot of people doing that. And it seems to me that that's a sign of appeal to authority. It's a sign of deference. It's a sign... It's also a way of signaling harmlessness because children use uplift, uptalk a lot. What it indicates to me when I see someone doing that is it's either a prolongation of immaturity, or it's, it can be manipulative, right, to mask yourself in a way that so you appear much more harmless than you actually are. It's, I suppose...

• 6:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's a way of also forestalling aggression. Because if you signal that you're immature, then what you're doing is you're asking for support from other people.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I think that's right. I see any kind of negative nonverbal cue, and cues are all contextual. Let's use uptalk as an example. There's actually two factors. There's external and internal. External is exactly what you just mentioned. Maybe you're trying to show deference. Maybe you're trying to show submissiveness, right? You'll often have people who they're asking permission, or they're trying to show, I'm not a threat to you. Those are external reasons. You also might have external reasons that someone makes you very anxious or nervous. And so you're with a boss, or you're in a negotiation. I hear uptalk a lot in sales contexts, where someone asks their price. So they're on the phone, and they say, you know, we'd love to work with you, and the price of this service is $5,000.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  And what they did there is, they are internally thinking, I'm not sure about this number, and neither should you. Or, are you gonna say yes to this number? I'm worried you won't. And so that gives away your vocal competence, because you're saying to this person, there is room to negotiate here. Or, we ask a boundary because we're nervous about the external source. The internal reasons, though, and this is, I think, where it gets more interesting, is if you don't feel worthy, if you have self doubt, if you feel like you don't belong, or you have imposter syndrome, which so many people do, you use uptalk regardless of the outside. And so you go into a presentation, or a meeting, or a date, or an interview, and you ask your

• 8:37Speaker 03

  name, you ask your value, you ask your salary, you ask your answer, and people go, ah, I can't trust this person. But it actually has, it's not a deception, it's not being deceptive. They're literally just so anxious, they cannot deliver with vocal competence.

• 8:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  Do you think that assessing the situation that way, so people are going to make their assessments based on those nonverbal cues, hypothetically, the assessments evolved and have functioned just like the behavioral demonstrations? And so, one of the things that I was considering when I was reading, I was reading cues, master the secret language of charismatic communication.

• 9:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  I was curious, you lay things out very explicitly. And it's hard for people to learn to change their behavior as a consequence of mere explicit instruction too. But why would we presume that there's actually a gap that needs to be closed between how someone is presenting themselves and the inference? Like, why shouldn't I just assume that if someone is adopting a prey position, P R E Y, prey, and they're indicating anxiety and they're using uptalk, why shouldn't I indicate, why shouldn't I conclude

• 10:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  that what that nonverbal behavior is telling me is actually correct? Now, you talked a little bit about, about bad habits. And that, maybe that's part of the answer, so.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Yes, this is such a great question. Bad habits is one, but I actually have a bigger one. And this is, I think, the reason why I wrote this book. Most people have very, very good ideas. They're very well-prepared, they have a lot of competence or book smarts, and they have no idea how to share that. So their competence is there, their ideas are very good. But when they get in the room, they have social anxiety, they have awkwardness. They're not sure how to read cues. And so the prey behavior, the uptalk, the bad, nonverbal habits come into play because they are anxious about their presence, but not their ideas. So my, what I, makes me angry is when you have someone who has a brilliant idea, a great presentation, they'd be a great hire in an interview,

• 11:04Speaker 03

  but they show up and they have no idea how to answer the questions. Even though their competence is there, they're so nervous about their presence, they can't show it.

• 11:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer. During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice. How do I balance all of this grief, responsibility?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  How do you repair this kind of damage?

• 11:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  My daughter, Michaela, guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives. Everyone has their own destiny, everyone.

• 11:39Speaker 00

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• 12:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  Okay, so your primary target, let's say, is people who subvert themselves unconsciously and portray themselves as less competent than they actually are. And so that would be likely associated with high trait neuroticism. My favorite personality trait. If you look at what predicts success, and this is something else I wanted to talk to you about. You talked about warmth and competence. And the best marker on the personality side for competence is conscientiousness. But warmth is more ambiguous, I would say, and so we should delve into that because

• 13:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  the literature that I read on management styles suggested that, or management personality, suggested generally that less agreeable managers are more effective. Now, it's a hard thing to parse apart.

• 13:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  Because that immature self-presentation you described, that could be a consequence of neuroticism, but it could also be a consequence of agreeableness that's too high. Right? And so if you're agreeable, you don't want to come across as a threat. And so you can revert to behaviors that indicate that you're harmless. Okay, and so, all right. So we're going to talk about people who are undermining their own ability to progress forward because they're, they lack, what do they lack? They lack social skill? Or they're just unconscious of the way they're presenting themselves?

• 14:01Speaker 03

  It's a, it's a bad combination of, you know, I, I call them high achieving awkward folks. Right? Like, they really want to do well. Very smart. So it's, uh, uh, yes, it can be a lack of social skill. It also could be an overemphasis on IQ over PQ, where they're, they were so focused for so long on developing test scores and book smarts and studying, and they focus a lot on the data. I work with a lot of engineers, very highly technical folks. And they're very, very hyper focused on their numbers. But they get in the room and they have no idea how to make eye contact. They have no idea. So that's a lack of knowledge. Where as long as, if they're told, hey, here are the cues for warmth and competence. I only want you to try cues on that actually work for you.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  I'm, uh, there's 97 different cues I've sort of identified. And there's some that work for people and there's some that don't. Okay, you try on a couple of cues that work for you. Here's the recipe of warmth and competence. If you add those cues, people are more likely to believe your data. And this comes directly from the research. So Dr. Susan Fisk is sort of the pioneer in, it's called stereotype content model, right? The warmth and competence model. And this, she said that competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious. And suspicious, that is the killer. Because what happens is someone gets in the room, they're over hyper focused on the numbers and the idea, which is, which is great. But they get in the room, they think my ideas will speak for themselves. I don't need to add warmth.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  And then they don't even know what warmth would be. So even when they get in the room and they can feel, uh-oh, people are suspicious of me. They're asking me really hard questions, they're not making eye contact, they're not believing my slides. Then they're like, what do I do, what do I do? And so then it creates this horrible cycle of awkwardness where it gets even worse.

• 15:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right. So people will note from the nonverbal behavior of the audience members that they're not being attended to. Right, so they lose the audience. So let me tell you some things that I do when I'm lecturing and you can comment on them if you would. So I never use notes.

• 16:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  So and my sense of that is that if you have to use notes, then you actually don't know what you're talking about. And then someone might say, well, I have to discuss some very complicated material that I'm not, I haven't fully mastered. And so I need the details of the notes. And my response to that usually is pitch at the level that you're able to. Right? And so then I also try to remember before I go on stage that I'm happy to be there and that I'm pleased that the audience is there. So I'm making a real effort not to regard them as adversaries or judgmental adversaries.

• 16:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  Because I believe that people can tell, if that's your assumption, pretty much the moment that you walk on stage, your nonverbal cues indicate fear of the audience. And then the audience is wondering what the hell you're doing there if you're afraid of them. And then I also make eye contact with people continually when I'm speaking. So I'm never, or seldomly, speaking to the crowd. It's one person at a time with eye contact. And the advantage to that is that you can tell by watching the person that you're making eye contact with, whether they're... Receiving the message.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  There's also a chemical component there that's gonna help any presenter, which is, you know, we talk about warmth. Well, what does warmth mean? It's one of the harder ones. I agree. Competence tied to conscientiousness, yes. Warmth is hard because it's tied to, chemically speaking, oxytocin. Now, we know oxytocin is very complicated, does a lot of things in our bodies, but the way that we produce it socially is two major ways. Touch, so handshake, high five, fist bump, or eye contact. In fact, research even shows that you and I can make oxytocin even through a webcam, as long as I can see your face and you can see mine. So, when you get on stage and you're trying to very quickly build trust, your competence is there. You're gonna speak without notes. Great. The way that you physically, physiologically, produce warmth

• 18:18Speaker 03

  is by trying to make eye contact with individual people in the audience. And I will add a little tip on top of yours, cuz I agree with you. I make eye contact with my nodders. If someone's in the audience-

• 18:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  Oh, yes, that's a good one. Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  I find-

• 18:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, yeah. You wanna make eye contact with people that are paying attention.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  Paying attention, and I know I'm a recovering awkward person. Okay, I am the person that I try to help, which is a high-achieving awkward person. If I'm on stage and I sense negative doubt, someone who's not on my side, I can get in my own head and then all of a sudden, my nonverbals are off, my confidence is off. But if I find my nodders, I know I'm with people. They are with me. And so, I'm making eye contact with them. It's a gift to them. I'm gifting them oxytocin. But more importantly, it's a gift to me. I get oxytocin, which makes me feel connected, belonging, and calm. Right? Which I need on stage. So, eye contact with individual people and your nodders is extremely important.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  The second thing that you mentioned was, or one of the things you mentioned was not having notes. So, I'm gonna add a nuance here. I very much agree that your notes are distracting for the audience. Right? If you're shuffling around flashcards, or you're trying to look at notes on your podium, it's, the audience is gonna wonder, well, why, where is their competence? Why didn't they, why don't they know this so well that they can deliver it to me? I would add, though, it's really important to reduce your audience's cognitive load.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  I think, just like you, I'm presenting some very complex topics. You know, I'm going very fast on stage. I know that if I'm just delivering to them with one mode, verbal, they're having to take that all in just by listening. So I will sometimes have notes for myself, but also really for the audience with visuals or bullets behind me. So my slides are kind of my notes in terms of how I want to pace myself. But also, I'm lowering listeners' cognitive load by saying, "Hey, warmth incompetence is 82% of your impressions." And then behind me, I have a giant slide that says, "82% of our impressions are warmth incompetence." That does two things. One, if, heaven forbid, I forgot the number

• 20:29Speaker 03

  because I got nervous, it would be behind me, but I know it. But more importantly, they see that with a visual of how much that is in a pie chart, and it doubles up the layer of understanding. The other thing I'll note here if we're talking about cognitive load is the importance of hand gestures. I think as a presenter, and I don't know how much you think about this on stage, I think it's important that we... Dr. Susan Goldwyn-Meadow is the researcher behind this, that the more gestures you add, especially if they're explanatory gestures, the more information is conveyed. So if I say to you, you know, "Jordan, I have five... I have three different ideas." And I hold up five. It's even hard to misalign them. And I hold up the number... I hold up five, but I say I have three. Your brain is like, "No, no, no, Vanessa, it's five."

• 21:13Speaker 03

  You're actually more likely to believe my gesture over my words. Or if I were to say, "Today, I have a really big idea, and I hold up like I'm holding a little penny," your brain kind of goes, "No, it's a small idea. It looks so small." So if you can demonstrate concept, phase one, phase two, we have three different things, that's like giving notes to the audience. And so I think that notes is an interesting... You can be playful with it, with visual notes, but also even gesture notes.

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• 22:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  So, I tend to gesture a lot when I'm lecturing, and I get parodied for that, which is fine, but I'm bringing that up because that indicates that it's noticeable. Now, you said that you're a recovering awkward person, but you gesture quite a lot. And so, how much of the persona that you have, did you develop consciously? Yes. I mean, you come across, let me see, you come across your... How would I say? Well, your shoulders are back, so that's relevant to that concept of fronting that you described.

• 23:36Jordan B. Peterson?

  So, you're not closed off. You're very attentive in terms of eye contact, and you use a lot of nonverbal gestures. Now, my suspicions are that that would be rare among someone who's...

• 23:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  Awkward. And so, how did you, would you say that you learned to let yourself use hand gestures? Or did you learn, did you actually practice? How much of the way that you're presenting yourself would you say is a consequence of conscious practice?

• 24:11Speaker 03

  You know, awkwardness shows up a lot of different ways. And this is one of my favorite topics. The stereotype about awkwardness is still less gesture, less attentiveness, lack of eye contact. But that's only one way that awkwardness, or even social fear, shows up. There's also awkwardness in bigger, more gestures, over the top gestures. And in fact, that's where I skew. So I skew quite high on the gestures. In fact, there's, in nonverbal, I like to say, there's, there's always too much of a good thing. So I love a gesture, but if I had hand gestures for every single word, it would be interpretive dance. I love nodding, but I actually nod too much. I'm an over-nodder.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  So I skew very high on eye contact gestures, movement, nodding. So I've had to just, just dial down a little bit. So it's always when people work with me, I'm like, okay, we gotta figure, where are you? Are you on the low end where we have to dial up to your comfort level, but we have to add a little more gesture? Or are you too high? So I, when I was, for example, let's take nodding. Nodding, in Western cultures, actually, most cultures, except Bulgaria, India, and Pakistan, this vertical nod is a yes, and a horizontal nod is a no. So we recognize this in those cultures as being affirmative or agreeing. Also, the research shows that if I triple nod while you're speaking, you're likely to speak 67% longer.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  So if I want you to open up and I go, mhm, mhm, mhm, that tells you I'm here, tell me more. But if I'm in conversation with you and the entire time I'm, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, it actually takes away my competence. It makes me look like I'm too agreeable or a people pleaser. So I've had to replace the nod with a head tilt, because it's physically impossible to do both at once. So I had some awkward moments there where I was like, I have to nod less, even especially if I don't agree with someone. So what was happening for me on a personal note is I was over nodding. I was over gesturing. I had too much movement and it was distracting. And I didn't even agree with folks.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  I was just so nervous about being liked. I so wanted to be liked that, you know, I would, yes, Jordan, please like me. You know, I would be nodding to you. And I realized that was not serving me because it actually made me look too, too trusting, too open. And so what you see in front of you is me with calmed, calmed gestures and calm nodding. I also try really hard to not fake a cue because I think that you can't fake it. I think that people pick up on it. They are inauthentic. So if I don't actually like something, I will not smile. As a recovering awkward person, I would smile by default all the time. Because I wanted people to like me. So the other way awkwardness dresses up is that sort of fake smile.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Do you like me? And we read that as inauthentic. And so I have also, if I, I have the tendency even with you to smile for you. Like I want to smile and, and say, this is good. But if I'm like, nope, I only smile if I actually feel excited about an answer or if I actually feel excited about something. So awkwardness kind of dresses up in two, in, in two different extremes.

• 27:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right. So that triple nod, that seems to me something like, I get it. Then I think about it. Then I agree. Maybe that's the signaling of the trifecta.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Well, I like it. I never thought about that before. Maybe it's, um, I hear you, right? Like that acknowledgement, yes. And yeah, and then you're internalizing it. Ah, yes, I agree with that. Yeah. And then it's like, keep going.

• 27:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah. And you're signaling it.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  And then, by the way, look at the difference. So nonverbal is so interesting. A slow triple nod, interest, curiosity, engagement. A fast triple nod, impatience. So watch the difference. So we go, tell me more.

• 28:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, right.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Versus, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.

• 28:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, get on with it, right? That's an indication to mimic my speed and to move more rapidly towards your goal. Right? To be the same as this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  So that, that smiling too.

• 28:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah. That is a proclivity of women more. Yes. Because if you look at, men and women are approximately equal in extroversion, but you can break extroversion down into assertiveness and enthusiasm. Outgoing, yeah, enthusiasm, yeah. And women score, women score higher on enthusiasm. So they're signaling more positive emotion as a general rule. And so they'll, they'll smile more as well. So that uptalk and the hunch, combined with nodding,

• 29:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  that definitely signals subordinate status, right? And I suppose it's, those are appeasement gestures in some way. Because if you signal that you're harmless, or you're signaling, even though you don't know it, that you're like a child, then you're going to present yourself as an inappropriate target of aggression, or perhaps even competition. And so maybe you want that in some circumstances. But if you're attempting to market yourself as competent, that seems like a bad approach. I wonder, you know, there is this trope, which is mostly false,

• 29:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  that women are underpaid compared to men, let's say, in the same position. Now, most of that's rubbish, or can be accounted for by factors other than sex. But I've always had the suspicion that some of that might be agreeableness, right? Because women are higher in agreeableness than men. And it isn't exactly obvious that the proper way to negotiate a raise, let's say, is through excess agreeableness. Because what you're signaling is that you'll pretty much put up with anything because you're dependent. All those things, we talked about, the uplift, the condensed body,

• 30:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  too much nodding, too much smiling, that all indicates a state. It's signaling dependency. And that's not appropriate if you're trying to sell something. And... It's not appropriate if you're trying to bargain for a raise or a promotion. It signals exactly the opposite. So do you know of any research linking these immature styles of self-presentation to wage, to earnings?

• 31:15Speaker 03

  I haven't seen anything directly related to wage, but we do know that your nonverbal cues in a salary negotiation directly impact your bottom line. So when they look at nonverbal cues and we can say, yes, that if you're using all those appeasement signals, people are going to doubt your competence because you have too much warmth. And we know that even by watching silent videos of interviews, people can decide how competent someone is without hearing them speak, which is horrifying, right? And so, for example, I think MIT did a study on mirroring in salary negotiation. And this is an interesting one because both men and women mirror. And actually, mirroring, you could argue, I'm going to argue it, is a bit of an appeasement, right?

• 31:59Speaker 03

  It's a get-along kind of a nonverbal cue. The more mirroring that you have in a salary negotiation, so the more that the interviewee mirrors their interviewer, the higher the outcome of the salary. And so we know that any kind of nonverbal cues, or all different kinds of nonverbal cues, affect that number. And so, yeah, I think that we can, while I haven't seen direct research on warmth and competence for men and women, we know that those nonverbal cues are affecting your number.

• 32:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  Delve into mirroring a little bit. And I suppose, the way I would think about it, I'll set the question up, is that when you're communicating with someone, you want to share the framework that a goal, a mutual goal, provides. So you're establishing a little space where communication can take place, but it's in relationship to some mutually agreed-upon end. Otherwise, you're imposing on them. And Mirroring, which I'll have you describe, indicates that your physiological tendencies

• 33:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  are allied with them, with theirs. It means you're going somewhere together because it's movement oriented. And so, but describe mirroring and suggest to people how you think it might be attended to and perfected.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  So mirroring is the subtle mimicking or copying, mirroring, of someone's cues. And actually, I take a bigger approach to mirroring, which is it's nonverbal. It can be verbal. It can also be vocal. And I like to think about it in all three ways. For example, if you're with someone and mirroring showcases engagement, alignment. And I say it's nonverbal respect. You don't have to agree with what someone is saying to mirror them. You're basically following their energy. You're saying, I respect you so much that I'm gonna align my verbal vocal and nonverbal cues to match you as a sign of respect. It's the same way where we would, we dress up for a formal interview or we dress more casual for a casual interview.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  It's the same. It's a form of nonverbal respect, saying, I'm meeting you where you're at, as opposed to you meeting me where I'm at. So we have three options with mirroring. And it's a very powerful, it's a very powerful tool. First, nonverbal. This is the most obvious one. So if you nod, maybe I nod, right? If you're leaning forward in your chair, maybe I lean forward in my chair a little bit more too. If you're making an eye contact pattern, there's different eye contact patterns. But if you're making an eye contact pattern where you brainstorm up here, you often see people will process complex ideas and they won't make eye contact because they actually don't want the oxytocin. They're trying to have full focus. And then at the very end of their statement, then they deliver to you. That's an eye contact pattern. And you can also use that if that feels comfortable.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  But there's caveats here. One, I never want you to use a cue that feels faker and authentic. It will come across as fake and authentic. So if you can match them and that feels good to you, great. Second, it must be subtle. The worst thing that we could possibly do is like Simon says, you know, like, you know, they touch their face, you touch your face. You, you cross your arms, I cross my arms. Like, that would be the worst. So this is a subtle following of energy. My second favorite way to mirror, and the one that I use the most often, is vocal. Vocal is an underestimated channel that we have to communicate. And we're already doing this subconsciously, and there's some beautiful research on this.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  But we tend to mimic the resonance of the most powerful person in the room without realizing it. So already, we are attuned to the vocal power. So for example, you speak more slowly than I do, Jordan. I'm a fast talker. And so for our interview, I want to respect the way that you communicate, and also the way that your listeners probably prefer to listen, right? So I am like, "Whew, like, take a breath, right? Calm down. You don't have to be, you know, so rapid nervous. You can just take a breath." So I'm doing that because, A, it feels actually really comfortable for me. It feels less nerve-wracking. But also, I want to show you that I want to speak at your same pace. We also can do this verbally.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  This is called, I call it, being a verbal chameleon. When I'm trying to bond or connect with someone, and they use certain kinds of words, if I like those words, I will use those words as well. So for example, when you're asking me a question and you use the word "alignment", and I'm like, "That is a good word." I'm going to try to use that answer back to you to talk about alignment. Or when you say, you know, "When I'm on stage, I'm, you know, trying to connect with my audience one-to-one", I'm going to try to use those same words. That's a very advanced way to do it. But it's, I think that's a way of showing nonverbal respect and building rapport in a, beyond the ideas, right? Those are just the way that we're communicating. Then it helps us when we get to the actual ideas.

• 37:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  Let's talk a little bit about some of the other phenomena that you mentioned. Fronting. Now, human beings are strange creatures because we walk upright. And so that means that unlike four-legged animals, we aren't protected by a suit of armor, precisely, right? So the most vulnerable parts of us are full frontal. And so...

• 37:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  That accounts at least to some degree for why the concept of fronting is important. So do you want to delve into that to some degree?

• 37:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, you explained it perfectly. There's, there's two reasons why we like to front and why I think this is one of the easiest cues we can do. We can do it on video. So how we position our camera is actually very important for how we're getting along with people. So making sure that your work camera or your Zoom camera or your phone camera, if you're propping it up, is exactly in line with the other person. I see very people with their setup where they're off to the side. So video in person and even in chairs, like if I'm in a conference room and I'm around a boardroom table, I love rotating chairs or rolling chairs because I will rotate my body to whoever is speaking as a way of showing off of respect. What does this fronting do? One, it shows, as you said, I feel comfortable enough with you that I don't feel I have to block my vital organs. But more importantly, I think there's a synchronization

• 38:28Speaker 03

  that happens when our toes, torso and head are on the same level, that we are parallel. Literally, our bodies are parallel. It is easier to open up to someone when we are physically on the same line. There's one exception to this that I think is important to note. Driving in a car, you'll notice people will often open up next to each other. Sitting at a bar, you'll often notice that especially men, they'll, they'll open up sitting next to each other at a bar or walking together, deep, long walks on the beach. People will open to each other. Why? Sometimes when we're feeling like we want to talk about something deep or vulnerable, fronting is too much.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  It's like, whoa, you know, you're looking at all of me. And so sometimes, like I have two young daughters. Sometimes it's funny, you know, she'll tell me a lot from the backseat of the car when we are the opposite of fronting because I think like she can say something without some, without me fully, you know, looking at every single cue. So again, there's always too much of a good thing. Sometimes with fronting, it can be too much. And so if you want someone to open up to you, start with that. But if they're feeling uncomfortable or they're awkward or they're introverted, you could try actually the opposite of fronting and being side by side or in a car because that might give them permission to feel they can open up without being judged.

• 39:52Speaker 05

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• 41:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  So, if you're facing each other front to front, that maximizes the possibility of self-consciousness, right? Because I know that you're looking at me completely and you can evaluate me. And so, the circumstances where with your daughter, she's in the backseat, she, I guess you're doing her a favor in that situation by removing the pressure of your gaze. That's what Freud did, you know, in his famous therapy sessions.

• 41:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  So, he sat to the side, his patients would often lay down Freud's famous couch and he sat to the side. And the reason he did that was because he wanted them to be able to speak freely.

• 42:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  Without mirroring anything that he was broadcasting. So maybe it's the situation that if the purpose of the conversation is for the other person to reveal themselves, the rules are different than they are when the purpose is mutual and reciprocal exchange of information. So I wonder if that's true.

• 42:28Speaker 03

  I, I mean, look.

• 42:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  It would account for what you just described.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  It, I, I don't want to make a hard and fast rule because, yes, of course, I want someone to feel comfortable, you know, sharing something vulnerable, but I also want someone to share with me where I can read their micro-expressions, you know, where I can take, take a pulse of how they're doing non-verbally. So there's no hard and fast rule here. It depends on what your goals are. Freud's goal was to let people free-associate, to let them open up without judgment and to not bond with him. He, he didn't need the oxytocin for himself. He needed them to be focused and just free-associating. That's a very different goal versus with my daughter, sometimes I do just want her to free-associate and just tell it all to me, but there are times where I'm wanting

• 43:16Speaker 03

  to talk to her and I want to see, is her face sad? You know, is she blocking? Is she distancing from me? Is she all of a sudden leaning back? That's going to give me more nuance. So I don't think we can have a hard and fast rule, but what we can know is that our cues are changing how people treat us. Our cues are changing how people act. The positioning of our face, our body, the sound of our voice, it's going to trigger different effects in different people and we have to be aware of how powerful those are. And I think if you're aware of that, you can choose your cues based on your context and your goals.

• 43:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  So if you're in a job interview and you're using the immature strategies that we described, like a prey posture, uptalk, too much smiling.

• 44:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  What I think what you're doing is you're there as a supplicant and you're asking the dominant primate to bequest something to you. It's a favor. So you're using signals of immaturity to curry favor with someone who's dominant. Now, the disadvantage to that is that that puts you in a subordinate position. And that's a mate, that can be a major disadvantage. That's a lot different attitude than a job interview where your goal is to portray your competence. Now, we could, we could talk, think a little bit about the different approaches there because

• 44:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  if you're the supplicant asking for a favor, you're not bringing anything to the table except the potentially implicit promise that you would return the favor. Right? And so the, the job that you're being offered or the raise or the promotion, that's now a favor. Whereas if you configure your attitude to indicate competence, what you're doing is signaling to the person that you're talking to that you have something of value to bring to the table and that it would actually be in their interest to offer you what it is that you want.

• 45:33Jordan B. Peterson?

  And it seems to me that that's a much more appropriate and, and successful negotiating stance unless the person that you're negotiating with is also hyper-agreeable and will give it to you just to be liked. That's quite unlikely, I would say, when you're dealing with people who are extremely successful. Because They either don't need to be liked because they have enough people who like them, or they're not temperamentally inclined to go in that direction. So what do you think the best signals are when you're negotiating on your own behalf? And what mistakes do you see in addition, perhaps, to the ones that we've been describing?

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, when you're going to interview, and you said it, I think, exactly right, is competence is going to be incredibly important for worth and your value, right? Showing, I have the skills to bring to this job, and we pay for skills. But there is a time issue here, and the research shows that when we first meet someone, we're trying to quickly answer two questions: Can I trust you? And can I rely on you? And they're chronological. Trust goes first, reliance goes second. So in an interview situation, or a date, or a meeting, you actually want to show trust first. High-warm signals in the first minute, 30 seconds.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  So high-warm signals that are good is if you're actually happy to be there, say you're happy to be there. I think you mentioned, before you got on stage, you remind yourself that you're happy to be there, that they're on your side. Incredibly important, because exactly you want to be able to say, "I'm so happy to be here, thank you so much for having me." Great, that's a genuine warmth. Second, visible hands. And I think this goes back to, you know, our caveman days, right? When we were approached by a stranger caveman, we wanted to see their intention, were they carrying a rock or a spear. So I recommend everyone have open palms upon first greeting. So you walk into the room, or you hop on video, "Nice to see you, good morning, oh, so good to see you," and then you reach out for the handshake if you're in person. Open palm literally shows, it signals to the other person's brain, I am not hiding

• 47:44Speaker 03

  anything. There's a reason why we say, "Get your hands up." Palms show intention. So first two seconds, you're greeting with an open palm, and ideally a handshake if you're in person. That physical touch is a way we produce oxytocin. Second, if you feel happy, smiling, right? That's a nice warmth cue, if you feel happy. Third, you're engaging in eye contact to produce that oxytocin. Okay, warmth, got it, right? Like, that's going to set the stage for, "You can trust me, I'm not hiding anything," just from an innate perspective. Then you want to go into reliance. And there's this weird...

• 48:16Speaker 03

  I'll even say potentially awkward few minutes in every interaction, especially an interview, where you're transitioning from warmth to competence. And that is called small talk. This is why there are books written about small talk is because it is very hard to go from, "Oh, it's so good to see you. Thanks so much for having me. Tell me your greatest strengths." Like, that gap is quite hard. So to be highly charismatic, I think that you should be assertive with that transition. That's what I teach. Okay, to be assertive, we're gonna break a social script. This is one way that we signal both warmth and competence. Do not say, "How are ya?" Do not say, "How's it been going?"

• 49:01Speaker 03

  I can tell you, you will socially script them. You engage the brain in, "This is an autopilot interaction." So if you ask your interviewer, "So how are ya?", and they say, "Oh," this is a little side, "Good, busy, but good." Yeah. You've just shown them that this is gonna be like every other interview. And part of this is like breaking those scripts. So do not ask that. You're gonna ask for a positive primer. You're going to try to cue with something positive, borrow excitement from other areas of their life. So you can ask, "What's good today?" What's good today is a very subtle shift. It makes the other person go, "Oh, what's good today?" You have just changed their thinking pattern.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  From wherever they were before, their inbox, their tasks, to good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good. That is going to make them more optimistic. It also allows you to talk about good things, which is much better for warmth, right? So you're gonna ask what's good. You could also ask, you know, "Have any fun plans for the weekend? Do anything fun this past weekend?", right? I have a little joke that I like to share that is useful, where on Mondays and Tuesdays, you can ask everyone you meet, "Did you do anything fun and exciting this past weekend?" On Thursdays and Fridays, you can ask, "Have any fun and exciting plans this upcoming weekend?" On Wednesdays, you just don't talk to anyone. Works great. So, or you could ask, have any fun, exciting plans this week. So you're breaking the script, which creates a little bit of warmth.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  Then you can transition into competence with your answer. Because what they're probably going to say is, how about you? Or, tell me about your week. You should be ready to go with a story that shows a little bit about your behavior, that transitions into your prep for the interview, right? Like prep is a competence cue. And then we can go into nonverbal competence. Nonverbal competence is purposeful gestures. So no accidentally touching the face. We really don't like that. There's Cornell research that looked at behaviors that trigger feelings of mistrust. What's hard about this research is we have to be very careful. These aren't actual cues of deception. These are cues that people perceive are deception.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  So if you accidentally do them, you are triggering feelings of mistrust. They are. Touching the face, touching the body, blocking the body, or distancing, leaning away or leaning back. Those behaviors, they tend to feel like disengagement. People don't like them. So you want to make sure that you're doing the opposite of those things. You're still, unless you're using explanatory gestures. You're not doing any kind of self-touch. Self-touch is either a flirtatious courtship behavior, or it's an anxious self-soothing behavior, pacifying behavior. You want to make sure that you are on your plane, on your level plane, or you're leaning in when you feel something important. You're not leaning back, or distancing, or taking a step back. So in that way, we can then begin to build our competence cues,

• 51:55Speaker 03

  and then we answer really competent on top of that.

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• 53:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  There's a lot there. One of the things that I was considering while you were laying out those observations was that your nonverbal behavior is probably dramatizing and then signaling your interpretation of the place as a drama. So let's say, one of the things you might ask yourself, for example, when you go to speak to your boss for a raise, it might well be worth asking...

• 54:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Who is this boss to you? What's your narrative about them? What's their characterization? And who are you in relationship to that figure? Because otherwise, that's going to take place unconsciously. And so if your boss is intimidating and terrifying, and you adopt the role of supplicant, because that's your conceptualization, then you're going to dramatize that with your nonverbal behavior and indicate it. So you want to get your attitude right, so that you're playing the right game.

• 55:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so what's the right attitude to have towards your boss? Well, if the situation is kosher, if it's set up properly, then you're each playing a mutually beneficial role in relationship to some shared end. So even though that person might be superordinate to you in the hierarchical position, that doesn't mean that you have no value or that you have nothing to offer. And so what behaviors are indicative? This would touch on the issue of competence. What are the behaviors that would be indicative

• 55:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  of the fact that you have something to offer? Because you're approaching a position of equality when you adopt that stance. I mean, when I was coaching people to accelerate the growth of their career, I encouraged them to make the requests that were in line with that goal, to actually let the boss know that...

• 56:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  They were interested in adopting more responsibility. It's a very different idea than I'm interested in having more money. That's not relevant. Everyone's interested in having more money. So if the role of your boss in your raise drama is bestower of money, you're not going to get anywhere because the proper attitude of any boss is, well, everybody always wants more money. So that doesn't make you unique. And it certainly doesn't indicate that you're bringing anything to the table. A much more appropriate strategy is to put yourself in a position genuinely

• 56:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  that where your services are both vital and productive. And then to indicate that, you know, and maybe this gets to the core question that we opened the conversation with is how do you know when your nonverbal signaling, which would be the drama that you inhabit, is counterproductive? And the answer to that would be you do a lot of the work, but you get none of the credit and that that's genuine. And then someone else, you're leaving a space for someone who's more psychopathic. So they can play dominance games and their nonverbal behavior codes for confidence. They can steal all the credit from you because you're not doing a good job

• 57:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  of communicating your value. So then when you go to ask for the raise, what you should have in mind is what the hell you're good for? And why it would be beneficial to the person that you're speaking with to provide you with additional resources? And so what behaviors would go along with an attitude like that? Say, rather than supplicant or questioner?

• 58:08Speaker 03

  Yes. So when you are seeing your boss, I think you want to have two narratives going in.

• 58:16Speaker 03

  Either problem solver, which is, I think, a coming, a part of competence, where you're going in saying, "My value here is solving whatever your problem is." Whether that's a personnel issue, or a company issue, or a value issue. Your narrative, that career narrative you're gonna go into is not, "I want more money." Because that doesn't, that's not, that's not gonna appeal to them. It's, "I am so competent that I can solve this company's problems, your problems, the team's problems. I'm a problem solver." That's what I, competent is such a big word. No, it's problem solving. That's, we can rely on people who solve our problems. So your verbal answers, your evidence, is all going to be around solving their problems. That's the, the, the brainchild of competence.

• 59:00Speaker 03

  Or, if you're like, "Ah, my, my value is not there." The brainchild of warmth is being an ally. And there are bosses who need this and will give raises for this. This is, "I am empathetic, I am compassionate, I have high emotional intelligence, I have high interpersonal intelligence. My value on this team and to you is that I'm a wonderful listener, I have my pulse of the behavior that's going on in this office. I'm a champion of you and your ideas, I can read you well." In a way, it's sort of soft skills and hard skills. And I wish that we talked about this more. And I think this is the only choice we have in the age of AI. This is career insurance.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  You either have to know, "I excel in soft skills, the warmth side of things, where I can support people on the communication side, or I thrive in hard skills, specifically problem solving." Less so, unfortunately, the hard skills of programming or, you know, software development. Unfortunately, I think that those are gonna start to be replaced. But we can have hard skills of, "I'm a problem solver in this office, and I'm gonna take problems off your plate." That's how people get raises. Rather than cause them, let's say. Yes, and the behavior cues along with that. There's so many ways that we could take it. First of all, of course, verbally, using those words. I mean, literally saying, "I'm gonna provide this value to you with the, with the reasoning." Yeah, yeah. How to sound smart is something I think about a lot,

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  because so many of my students are so smart, but they don't sound it. And I'm like, "What is the disconnect here? What is happening?" We talked about uptalk, which is an important one. But verbal acuity, verbally being able to organize your thoughts is a skill that can be learned. And if you have mental acuity, you can learn to verbalize it. This means, the myth is speak in longer, more complex sentences with bigger words. We actually don't think of that as smart. In fact, we like people who speak in short declarative sentences with concise ideas and have shorter, more specific words. So what smart people often do, the mistake they make, one of the biggest mistakes is they try to speak in more complex ways.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  That actually is the worst thing for your competence because it makes it sound like you actually don't know what you're talking about. So practicing, how can I verbally organize this? I want a raise for these three ideas and literally holding up the number three. First, second, third. That is all competence cues because you're saying, I know my content so well. I can speak to you on two tracks. I can speak to you with my words, but I can also speak to you with my gestures. And boy, oh, boy, do we like to rely on people who can speak to us on two different tracks and it organizes for us. So your boss, who's probably doing a bunch of these meetings all day, their brain is half in their inbox, the more you can have clarity of the way that you speak with your

• 1:01:50Speaker 03

  gestures, with your nonverbal, with your precision of movement, and I do mean precision of movement, the more smart you are going to sound and look.

• 1:02:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  You talked about the fact that touching the face, for example, is a sign of disconnect. And I think it's a sign of disconnect because if I'm attending to me in the course of a conversation, then I'm clearly not attending to you. It's an indication of self-consciousness, which is associated with doubt and fear and withdrawal. And you want to be talking to someone who's engaged in the conversation and not self-conscious. Now, if you're going in to ask for a raise, you could easily become self-conscious.

• 1:02:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  But that would be an indication, I think, that... The story that you're acting out is all about you. Right? Now, so the big five theorists showed that self-consciousness and neuroticism were indistinguishable from one another. So, the rule of thumb, and this is a terrible rule of thumb, is that if you're thinking about yourself, you're miserable. And that probably applies in some ways across the board.

• 1:03:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  What you want to be thinking with, thinking about is

• 1:03:24Jordan B. Peterson?

  what you're going to do for the other person.

• 1:03:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  And it has to be real. So if you're going to your boss because you want a raise, you want to know and then thoroughly justify the fact that it's in his or her best interest to give you a raise. And you need to provide them with the data that indicate that that's self-evident. Now, you talked about problem solving.

• 1:03:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  What do you suppose the association is between precision of words and precision of gesture in relationship to competence? Does it show that you're integrated?

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it shows that-

• 1:04:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  That you're focused? What do you think it's indicating?

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  Well, if you think of someone who is highly competent, they know their stuff, they don't need notes. In other words, they're so clear on what their idea is, and what either the problem is or the solution is, that they don't have to waste words, they don't have to waste movement. And so, the clarity is the indication of the competence. That is why, when people are long-winded or they are obfuscating the idea, you're like, "Hmm, I don't know if they really know what they're talking about." And so, clarity, I think, is a symptom of competence. And that's why you said, "If you don't have, if you need notes on stage, you don't know your stuff well enough." It's the same thing, I think, when we're talking to a boss. Someone who has a clear idea of the problem and a clear idea of the solution, and, by the way, this is the most overlooked one-

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Knows what they don't know. You can also have clarity around what you don't know. Right? We're like, huh, I can rely on you. So you don't have to know everything, but you have to know what you know. So that when you have precision of word, you're able to explain the problem, the solution. And then you can say, you know, the biggest question is going to be blank. Here's how I want to solve that. What I don't know is this, and here's how I'm going to find out. That way you're showing I know every aspect of this problem, even what I don't know.

• 1:05:23Speaker 05

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• 1:06:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right. Well, if you're confident in what you don't know, what you're doing is indicating to the person that you're communicating with that.

• 1:06:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  You know the difference between your ability and your lack of ability. So you won't overstep. But it also indicates that you're confident enough in what you know. So that you don't have to exaggerate it. And that indicates that you genuinely value what it is that you don't know. And you're not set back on your heels by the fact that there's many things that you have to learn or still can't do.

• 1:07:11Speaker 03

  I also think, you know, I love narrative identity and we're just kind of close to that topic. So if I can bring it up here, we also love people who have a clear idea of their own story. And so I, I think that going into your boss, going into a meeting and knowing how your, your identity fits into this role and how you think it's perfect for it is really important. That shows a kind of confidence that we really want in people. I also think from a mindset perspective, it's important to go into your interview, to walk on stage, to walk into a date, thinking you are lucky. I believe in the power of luck.

• 1:07:52Speaker 03

  And if there's a mindset routine, I could, I could suggest gently to folks, you know, I love a power pose, sure. You know, I love, you know, jumping up on a trampoline. That's all great. But actually, I think the most powerful mental warm up you can do is reminding yourself of how lucky you are. The luck factor is, has a major impact on how we come across. If you feel lucky as a person, it makes you feel more confident, it fits into your narrative, and we like people who are lucky. And so I think that having that idea that you're the perfect person for this position, you're in the perfect spot to get this raise, you're in the perfect role to be there for your boss, that perception is also, I'm a high neurotic.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  And so I have, I have trouble convincing myself to be optimistic. It doesn't really work for me, but I can, I can very firmly believe I'm lucky. And so I think that luck is sort of a side door into that, into that optimism that we really need in the confidence in these interviews.

• 1:08:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  Do you think that that's luck? Or is it better characterized potentially as gratitude?

• 1:09:03Speaker 03

  I think it's both.

• 1:09:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right now gratitude is the opposite of envy. Well.

• 1:09:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  Gratitude means that you've searched the narrative territory with regards to the characterization of this event and that you've found a place to stand where you're fortunate and pleased about it. Because you could be terrified when you go in to ask for a raise or you could think, "I'm fortunate to have a job. I'm fortunate enough to be able to I'm fortunate to be able to communicate with my boss and I'm fortunate to be in a position where I could ask for a raise or a promotion. So there's some possibility for advancement where I sit." And then you're going to broadcast that.

• 1:09:52Speaker 03

  Well, this is a very personal thing. So if you don't relate to it, that's fine. But I think that gratitude, in a weird way, reminds me of a scarcity. So if I think I'm lucky to have this job, I'm lucky to have what I get. It almost makes me feel like I need to settle for what I have. Versus luck, I feel a lot more opportunity. There's opportunity, there's abundance. If I say, "I'm a lucky person," there is an outward focus of, "Maybe there's more luck to be had." Versus if I do a gratitude exercise, it's almost settling. It's almost like, "Hey, you're lucky to have what you have. I don't know if you should ask for anything more."

• 1:10:37Speaker 03

  You know, be grateful for the role that you have. And so emotionally, there's a very subtle difference in the gratitude exercise versus luck. I love being grateful, but there are times where I think gratitude can almost stifle opportunity.

• 1:10:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, so maybe what you're pointing to is the idea that you should be grateful for the opportunity.

• 1:11:01Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 1:11:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right. Because that would take away that danger of presuming that you should be satisfied with what you have only. Right, "I'm satisfied with what I have, but I want more what? I want more opportunity, I want more adventure, I want more responsibility."

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  "I can do more."

• 1:11:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  "I want it."

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  "I can do."

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  Yes, and I think that that's the attitude to walk into. "I can do more."

• 1:11:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, "I can do more." And that would be good for you too. To put me in a position where that was the case. Not least because I would take a variety of potential problems off your plate. And because certainly bosses are looking for that all the time. And enable you to do what you're best at more effectively. Right, let's talk about first greetings, first impressions. So I meet many people after my lectures. I have a meet and greet. So I've probably shaken hands with 20,000 people in the last

• 1:12:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  four or five years, maybe more than that. Could be 50,000, I'd have to do the mathematics, but. And I also learned to pay attention to this as a therapist because you want to put people at ease relatively quickly. The first impressions matter because they set the stage, right? So when someone new walks into your office, if you're a therapist, you don't want to be thinking, oh, my God, here comes another panoply of problems. You want to be thinking, this is going to be interesting and hopefully I can be helpful to this person and I would like them to. I'd like to do that as quickly and efficiently as possible and

• 1:12:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  it'd be good to get the ball rolling. That's a good initial prayer, you might say, to to sort yourself out. Now, when I watch someone approach me to shake my hand, it's like the introduction to a dance. And so you have to specify the space. So I guess you use your eyes and your body. You turn your body towards the person. You make eye contact with them. And that defines a shared space right away. And then I match my tempo to their tempo. So people will have a characteristic pace at which they approach.

• 1:13:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  And that's like the rhythm of their apprehension. And if you put your hand out at the same rate they put their hand out.

• 1:13:52Jordan B. Peterson?

  When you shake hands, then you've indicated that you attended to them enough to adopt their tempo immediately. And then

• 1:14:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  you shake hands with a firm grip, but you modulate that. Like you should have a default firmness of grip, which should be

• 1:14:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  be tight enough to pick up a relatively, let's say, I don't know, a 10-pound object, something like that. And but you should modulate that in accordance with the grip strength of the person that you're communicating with. Right. And then I ask people their name because even the most nervous person can usually remember their name. And then

• 1:14:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  I tell them that I'm happy that they're there and pleased about that, and I mean it. And then that usually establishes a little bit of instantaneous intimacy and both players can walk away satisfied with the interaction, even though it's brief. So

• 1:15:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  tell me about introducing yourself and what's most effective in that regard?

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  I also wanted to share a little tip that I learned from Jerry Seinfeld, the comedian, who said he meets thousands and thousands of people, and because he's quite famous, he tends to intimidate people, which I don't know if you have that with folks. He has a trick he uses where he finds if he asks them too big of a question, they get they get too nervous. Name is good. He always then asks a numbers-based question because it kind of accesses a part of the brain that is very logical. So he'll say, how long have you been married? How long have you lived in Toronto? How long have you been here? How far away do you live from the venue? He asks a numbers-based question, which is like a way for them to sort of find themselves, to then be able to tell a story about their marriage, or about how long they lived there, or how long it took to get there.

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  So that's a little tip for anyone who is searching, talking to a nervous person, sometimes numbers can be good. You know, it's funny, you walked me through your introduction process, and there's one piece that you missed for awkward people. So for awkward people like me, there's a terrible moment that happens between eye contact and greeting, which is, are we gonna handshake, hug, cheek kiss, or fist bump? Or wave? And for an awkward person, I agonize in those first few seconds. And if you do it wrong, you're gonna end up in an awkward side hug. And so what I say to people is, I actually don't want you to match them in terms of the greeting.

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  I think it's better to be the assertive one, and show them the kind of greeting you want. So if you want a handshake, clarity of signal. We know that human to human, if I'm gonna stick my hand out towards you and slightly blade my body, I want a handshake and I'm coming in for a handshake. If someone doesn't want a handshake, they'll go like this. They'll wave at you. And then you can change to, oh, yep, good to see you. So if I want a handshake, I'm coming at you the moment I enter the room. I am, morning, Jordan, it's so good to see you. I'm so happy to see you, even if that means I am holding it up. So clearly signal, this is a handshake. If you want a hug, and this is for huggers, please, please, keep this in mind. Not everyone is a hugger.

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  And you don't want to be stuck in the position of someone going, uh, and freezing up, of creating that kind of prey behavior. So what I recommend, if you want a hug, do the open palm. We recognize universally, if someone's coming at us with two open palms, they are coming in for a more intimate embrace. If you see fear in their eyes, so the whites of their eyes, upper whites of their eyes show, or they take a step back or take a deep breath, I want you to pivot to, so good to see you. So you're gonna start off by showing that hug cue, you're coming in for the hug. If they immediately reciprocate it, great, you're good for a hug. If they either freeze, hide their hands, slow down, or show the fear response, you should then change to a handshake.

• 1:18:08Speaker 03

  That little, those two seconds, you have given them a gift of being clear with the kind of greeting you want, and you're gonna get more oxytocin from it. If unwanted touch happens, or awkward touch happens, it's worse than having no touch at all, because you're actually gonna create cortisol, we're gonna make someone stressed, or adrenaline even worse. So getting ready for that first touch is a really critical piece. And then a couple notes on the handshake, because I think, I learned growing up how to handshake. Like, my dad sat me down and said, "Here's how you handshake." But I'm noticing a lot of my younger students, they haven't had the handshake lesson, and they're handshaking less. So if I could share, there's a mechanics to a handshake, which is, you always wanna

• 1:18:50Speaker 03

  offer vertically, so up and down, thumb pointed towards the sky. You never wanna offer your hand up, it's a submissive gesture. You never wanna offer your hand, palm pointed down, it's a dominance gesture. So you're gonna offer it vertical, you're gonna grip them. I always say, I liked your analogy of picking up a 10-pound object. I say squeeze them like you're squeezing a peach. Squeeze until you feel a little firmness, right? So you're gonna try to squeeze until you feel a little firmness. Then, interestingly, usually if you're meeting someone for the first time, it's three pumps. "One, two, three, nice to meet you." If you already know someone, often it's "one, so good to see you." So if you're thinking about the kind of mechanics of that, one to three is the appropriate amount.

• 1:19:35Speaker 03

  Save the double clasp for extra warm, so a lot of politicians will do that, the double clasp, over. That's because it's sort of double the oxytocin, it's on the way to a hug. I say only do that if you're super confident in doing it well, otherwise it's that one-to-one up-and-down vertical. Right. What are you doing with your eyes? I like to make mutual eye contact during the handshake, but I don't wanna make 100% eye contact in the first few minutes of interaction. That's a myth, I think people are told. Make more eye contact. And eye contact is good, but... Sixty to seventy percent is ideal. A hundred percent, ninety percent eye contact is considered invasive or territorial. It's actually like a pre-fighting kind of a cue. So I, it's a make eye contact in those first few seconds.

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  And then, you know, you can look around the room. Welcome, so happy to have you here. When you're processing, you should and feel free to look away as you're cognitively processing something. So sixty to seventy percent eye contact is great. You don't need to go more than that.

• 1:20:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Nonverbal bridges. Let's talk about, I like your analysis of the, the meaning of different distances. And also, let's talk a little bit about nonverbal bridges.

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  Hmm, yes. So when we look at human interaction, the space between us, how we interact in our environment, the fancy word is proxemics. And it's actually quite important for signaling intimacy. The reason for this is because what research shows is that the closer we feel to someone emotionally, the closer we're able to get to them physically. And so oftentimes, if you're with a stranger, they stand further away from you because they don't feel as close to you. This is just a, a kind of subconscious safety measure. When we're in interactions, it's important to take these distances into account. There are four basic distances between people. The public zone, the social zone, the personal zone, and the intimate zone. The zones that we should stick in the most are the personal and the social zone. So seven feet away is public, right?

• 1:21:33Speaker 03

  We're in an inner room with someone, we're not going to have a deep conversation with them if they're seven feet away. We might say, hey, good to see you. Nice, nice to have you here. Social zone, anywhere from three to five feet or four to seven feet, depending on the culture you're in. That's a great space for around a boardroom table, talking to colleagues in the break room, having kind of casual friendships at a bar or a party or networking event. That's, we can have conversation, but we're not feeling super close to them. The personal zone, one of my favorite zones, this is eighteen inches to about three feet away. That's where we like to have most of our friend to friend conversations, our good work conversations. In fact, I advise people to measure the distance between their nose and their camera.

• 1:22:15Speaker 03

  You should make sure that your camera is in that zone, 18 inches to three feet away. If it's too close, you hit the intimate zone. And that's when people are like, whoa. It's almost the equivalent of a close talker digitally. So you want to make sure that you're not accidentally going too close, 18 inches away with your camera or in person. A nonverbal bridge is this idea that I came up with as I observed people in interaction. I noticed that as they were getting closer, they would slowly cross into a closer zone. But we don't like it when someone fully steps into the zone. So instead, there are these nonverbal bridges that we can actually use to create intimacy, which is we reach out and shake hands. The moment we shake hands, our hands have crossed into the zone. It's a bridge.

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  Or if I lean forward, I might, just the top of my body has gone a little bit closer into your zone to see how it goes. Maybe you scoot your chair forward, or maybe you're gesturing forward. You'll notice that on like a really good date, my husband and I love to sit in a restaurant and watch other people's dates and see if we can guess how they're going. Really good dates, people are nonverbal bridging all the time. They're reaching out and touching each other's arm. They're reaching and gesturing into each other's space. They're leaning forward to each other. They're whispering into someone, they're saying something a little bit closer into their ear. That is a way of warming them up to try to get into that next zone. I love this when you are trying to be closer to someone comfortably. So leaning is a great nonverbal bridge.

• 1:23:41Speaker 03

  Reaching out and shaking hands or handing someone something, that is a great nonverbal bridge. Scooting or sitting closer is a great nonverbal bridge to warm them up. I work with a lot of physicians and I share with them, you need to do two or three nonverbal bridges before you have to go touch someone. Whereas a lot of times people are nervous around doctors simply because they're about to go in their intimate space. And so using those can really help warm someone up to that touch.

• 1:24:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  Talk about close talkers.

• 1:24:10Speaker 03

  Close talkers are breaking a social rule. And we don't like that for two reasons. One, we do not like people who are not well versed in social etiquette. It makes us nervous. But second, what they're doing is they're crossing into the intimate zone. Close talkers, physically speaking, are less than 18 inches away from your face. And this is way too close, too fast, usually. But also, there's all kinds of, I think this comes from actually health reasons. We don't like it when someone is literally breathing into our mouth. It grosses us out, like, just basically. We are breathing their air. We possibly will get their spittle on our face. And that gives us this kind of ick factor. And so I say to people, if you find that people are backing away from you, you are likely accidentally close talking and they're not ready for it.

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

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• 1:25:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right. Well, and one of the last responses that you want to trigger in someone is disgust. That's way worse than fear. It's way worse than anger. There's probably not a more destructive emotion that you can feel in relationship to someone than disgust.

• 1:25:41Speaker 03

  Have you heard, Jordan, of the ick factor? Have you heard of that?

• 1:25:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  Not specifically.

• 1:25:47Speaker 03

  What you said is exactly right. There's a phrase, it's, "Oh, he gave me the ick." Which means...

• 1:25:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:25:54Speaker 03

  Someone did something that gave you that feeling of disgust. And that is the ultimate crusher of attraction, of intimacy, of connection. And I think that sometimes awkward people are accidentally, without realizing it, giving people the ick.

• 1:26:11Speaker 03

  And that discussed, so understanding some of these very small social rules, the distance between, the difference between 19 inches and 18 inches is a big one. Right? And so if we can understand those social rules, you're not accidentally giving that the ick.

• 1:26:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right. Well, and you could also allow the other person to set the distance requirement rather than you doing it yourself.

• 1:26:33Speaker 03

  Yes. I don't know about you, but when I'm greeting people at book signings, I usually plant and I let them decide how close they want to come to me.

• 1:26:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I do that when I meet people in the meet and greets too. Is that I'm, I'm pretty much stationary. Right? And then they can, they can, they can make the adjustment as necessary. What, is there any relationship between the use of filler words and unsophisticated nonverbal behavior?

• 1:27:01Speaker 03

  You know, it's funny you ask this. The research is conflicting. It is actually not obvious. We think and we're told use of ums and ahs and likes and so's and you knows is bad. It takes away from your competence. But there's some research that shows it can be casual. It can be colloquial. It can show that someone is not robotic. And so what I say is, is if you're competent in your idea and that gives you verbal acuity, great. But if you need to um or have a like or a so you know, it's not going to destroy your credibility. Because sometimes we recognize as humans, ah, they're processing for a moment or they're gathering that story or it's a habit. Right? We have this nonverbal pet peeve.

• 1:27:46Speaker 03

  I know some very, very competent influencers who use a lot of fillers and people still love them and trust them. So it's not a deal breaker if it's authentic to your brand. And I know that sounds crazy, but I think everyone has a personal flavor of charisma. And there are certain folks who have those as their nonverbal signature or their verbal signature. And if that feels natural to you and you know your stuff. I think it's okay.

• 1:28:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  I wonder if it's a warmth indicator, but not a competence indicator.

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  Yes, I think that, you know, the pratfall effect, right? We know that people who make mistakes are likable. I wonder, because I have struggled with likes and knows. What if ums, verbal fillers are a pratfall effect verbally? Where you're saying, I know my stuff, but you're showing a little bit of humanity and warmth and vulnerability. It almost is like, ah, this person is human and has mistakes and I can trust them more.

• 1:28:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, well, I guess the part of the problem with extremely high level of competence is that it's intimidating.

• 1:28:56Speaker 03

  It leaves us feeling suspicious.

• 1:28:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  And you might think.

• 1:29:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, talk about that. Talk about that, because you write about the fact that leaving competence with warmth seems to be the most appropriate strategy. And I guess the thing about warmth, likely, and agreeableness, is that it indicates the probability of reciprocity, right? We're in this together. You said that if you signal warmth, for example, when you're speaking to your boss, then what you're showing him or her is that you're an ally that can be counted on. And that's different than competent in the mechanical sense.

• 1:29:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  So the use of those fillers, that might be.

• 1:29:51Jordan B. Peterson?

  So that's a warmth manifestation.

• 1:29:53Speaker 03

  I agree, and I think.

• 1:29:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  I guess part of it is, yeah, go ahead.

• 1:29:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I agree, because when warmth, the outcome of warmth is you belong here. You are safe with me. And that allows someone to open up, be vulnerable. I joke with my highly warm folks. So if you're very highly warm, you are constantly signaling warmth with your verbal, vocal, and nonverbal cues. And what happens to you, it changes your whole life, because you sit down on a plane and the person next to you tells you their entire life story. You cannot have friendships where people don't dominate the conversation by sharing everything. They verbal vomit all over you. And that is because you are cuing everyone. Open up to me. You're safe here. Tell me everything. And so that is the symptom of warmth.

• 1:30:39Speaker 03

  Warm folks, their main goal is to be liked. Competent folks, their main goal is to be right. Neither of those are right or wrong, but it plays out differently in relationships. A warm person who wants to be liked, they might be taken less seriously. They're interrupted more. So highly warm folks are interrupted more because they're, people think that they'll be okay with it. Whereas highly competent folks, they have a totally different set of problems. They're told they're cold, intimidating, hard to talk to. They have some trouble getting buy-in or getting friendships. And that is because they're so focused on being right that they're willing to sacrifice the likability. You know you're in a relationship with a highly competent person if they constantly Google fact-check you. Because they want to make

• 1:31:24Speaker 03

  sure that it's right, even if it's going to offend you. They're more focused on that. Neither of these are right or wrong, but if you want to get ahead, you have to couch, you have to lubricate your competence with warmth, or else you cannot get buy-in.

• 1:31:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  So you said, and I guess we should probably close with this, because surprisingly enough, this has almost gone 90 minutes already. So I guess that's the sign of an engrossing conversation. You said that you were, you intimated that you were awkward and I suspect competency-focused, but perhaps that's wrong. And you, you made a study of this. Why did you do that? And what did you do to transform yourself?

• 1:32:11Speaker 03

  I had a moment in college. I went to Emory University. And my professor assigned a group paper. And I was not good at working in groups. People made me nervous. And so I went to him in office hours and I said, can I write double the amount of pages and do it by myself? And he said, Vanessa, this paper is not about the technical skills, it's about the people skills. And I was

• 1:32:38Speaker 00

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• 1:33:09Speaker 01

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• 1:34:08Speaker 03

  So overwhelmed. I was like, I, I don't know how. I, I know how to write, but I don't know how to collaborate. I was never taught that. I was very focused on the competent side. And he said to me, listen, why don't you study for people like you study for chemistry? Why don't you study conversation and body language, just like you study for subjects? Soft skills can be learned, even if they don't come naturally to you. And that is exactly what I did. In the beginning, I started reading everything I could on nonverbal behavior. I read everything I could on conversation and interpersonal relationships. The amount of a pause, how long should a pause be? How many pumps in a handshake? And I, I realized that actually it freed me.

• 1:34:50Speaker 03

  If I knew the rules of a handshake, I didn't worry about it. So all of a sudden, if I understood the blueprint, the rules of interactions, I no longer had anxiety about it. So if I came prepared with little flashcards of conversation starters that I had memorized, I had no anxiety about the conversation because I always knew that I had a question that I could ask in my, literally my back pocket. And so the way that I felt transformed was that you can study soft skills like hard skills and that if you understand the blueprint of relationships, it actually gives you freedom to be able to be more yourself. And it took many years. I started that at age 19.

• 1:35:30Speaker 03

  I posted my first blog a couple of years later and it went viral. There was other awkward people out there who also struggled with conversation. And I posted my very first YouTube video in 2007, when no one knew what YouTube was, about conversation. And I realized that other people had this problem. And so very slowly, I started to post more. And also through other awkward people, I've been able to transform, oh, we're not alone in this. And there are common pitfalls. If we know how to avoid them, we can.

• 1:36:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  Lay out your books for us. Tell everybody the titles of your books.

• 1:36:07Speaker 03

  Sure. I started with Captivate in 2017. That is all about first impressions, how to be memorable, how to create lasting relationships through the first five minutes, the first five hours and the first five days. That's how I break down relationships. So how to turn strangers into friends, friends into soulmates or partners. And so Captivate is a treatise of different people's skills that I think everyone should have. Then I came out with Cues in 2022. That was all the nonverbal behaviors. So it's 97 different cues, nonverbally, vocally and verbally. I also have a last section on ornaments. I do think ornaments are quite important. The colors you wear, the cues behind you in your background, what you wear, how you wear things, how you wear your hair, your glasses.

• 1:36:51Speaker 03

  So there's a small last section on ornaments and how that cues warmth and competence. And then I'm working on my next book now called Conversation. I love those C words, which is all about what we're talking about today. So working on that right now.

• 1:37:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  And when does Conversation come out?

• 1:37:04Speaker 03

  Hoping 2026, if I'm on time. If I'm on time.

• 1:37:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  So that's a good place to close, I think. I think what we'll do on the Daily Wire side is delve more into the relationship between... Competence, warmth, and the big five personality traits. And so for everybody who's watching and listening, you can join us for an additional 20 minutes or half an hour on the Daily Wire side.

• 1:37:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Is there anything that you'd like to tell the awkward people in the audience who are listening in closing?

• 1:37:40Speaker 03

  If you feel underestimated or overlooked, that is real, and you are not alone. And there are very specific things you can do to still feel authentic and make sure that people actually see you for who you are and take you seriously.

• 1:37:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right. Well, that touches back on the dichotomy that we opened the conversation with, which was, it's one thing to be competent, but it's another thing to have people aboard and to also have them know that you're competent. And it's very painful watching people who are good at what they do and who have a lot to bring to the table, who are unable to market themselves. And that's not deception, and it's not advertising. It's communication. And to be very effective and successful in your enterprise, you have to bring something

• 1:38:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  to the table, but you also have to communicate the fact that you are bringing something to the table. Otherwise, you'll be out there in overlooked hell, watching the glib psychopaths take credit for everything you do and observing the enterprise collapse around you in consequence. So, thank you very much for sharing your insights with us today. It's much appreciated. And so we'll put links up to your books, obviously, in the description. And we'll go to the Daily Wire side and talk about the big five in relationship to life and nonverbal behavior.

• 1:39:17Speaker 03

  Love it. Thank you so much.

• 1:39:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  Very nice to talk to you. Yep, you bet.