Empress Matilda (Radio Edit)

Greg Jenner is joined in twelfth-century England by Dr Gabrielle Storey and comedian Cariad Lloyd to learn all about Empress Matilda and the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. A granddaughter of William the Conqueror, Matilda was born into England’s new Norman royal family. As a young girl she was used as a dynastic pawn by her father and sent to Germany to marry the Holy Roman Emperor. Here she was crowned empress and trained to rule. When her younger brother died, followed by her husband, Matilda returned to England to take her place as her father’s heir. But after her father’s death she was beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen, and so began the medieval civil war known as the Anarchy. Although Matilda ultimately lost, her son, Henry, was made Stephen’s heir, and he went on to rule with support and advice from his royal mother. So who was the real winner? This episode traces Matilda’s dramatic life from daughter of a king to empress of Germany to queen-in-waiting of England. Along the way, we ask whether medieval sexism prevented her from taking the throne, and look at the ways a woman could rule in twelfth-century Europe. This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Clara Chamberlain Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

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• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 1:10Speaker 03

  BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

• 1:16Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are moseying back to medieval England and throwing fists in the fist of family feuds as we learn all about Empress Matilda and the anarchy. And joining our royal court are two very special guests. In history corner, she's a historian of monarchy and sexuality, specialising in medieval history. She's the author of Berengaria of Navarre, Queen of England and Lord of Lomond. And you'll remember her from our episode on Eleanor of Accutane. It's Dr Gabrielle Story. Welcome back, Gabby. Great, thanks for having me back. And in comedy corner, she's a multi-talented comedian, actor, writer. You'll know her from the TV panel show. She's an author. Her new children's book, Where Does She Go?, is a lovely analysis of grief for kids. It's beautiful.

• 2:01Greg Jenner?

  Plus, she has a career as a Jane Austen improv whiz in The Hilarious Ostentatious Improv Show. She's a busy woman and you'll definitely remember her from our episodes of You're Dead to Me, including Georgian Courtship and the Arts and Crafts Movement. It's the wonderful Cariad Lloyd. Welcome back, Cariad.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Ahoy there, Sarah. As they said in medieval times, yes?

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Good morrow upon thee, yes?

• 2:23Speaker 03

  Gabby's nodding like, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That was your classic English greeting. Well, we do need it in Anglo-French for this episode. Bonjour, sir.

• 2:34Greg Jenner?

  Now, Carrie, together we have done Agrippina, the younger of Rome.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:38Greg Jenner?

  A sort of empress. We've done plenty of sort of regency and Victorian. We've not done medieval together.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  We have not gone back to medieval times.

• 2:46Greg Jenner?

  And so when I say to you, Empress Matilda and the Anarchy, you think?

• 2:49Speaker 03

  I feel like I have one piece of information about Matilda, which could be wrong, but I feel like I read it once in Peter Ackroyd's London. And I only remember two things from Peter Ackroyd's London. And I feel like she was a really popular queen. That's what I thought about Matilda. And that when she came out Westminster Abbey once, they were cheering her. And that the area of St Giles was a slum. I'm so sorry, Peter Ackroyd. It's a very large tome.

• 3:12Greg Jenner?

  It's a very big book, very heavy.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  I should remember more.

• 3:15Greg Jenner?

  Popular queen. Interesting. We will address that later, I think.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Okay, that's fine.

• 3:20Greg Jenner?

  That is not what I was.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Oh, no. Well, take it out with Peter Ackroyd, not me.

• 3:25Greg Jenner?

  So, what do you know?

• 3:32Greg Jenner?

  Great. That brings us to the first segment of the podcast, which is the So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And for most of you, Matilda is most probably going to be the heroine from the Roald Dahl story, more so than medieval royal diva, I suspect. But you may have read Ken Follet's famous mega massive medieval novel, The Pillars of the Earth, which in 2010 was turned into a TV series as well. And of course, if video games are more your speed, and particularly if you're an elder millennial like me, you may have played Age of Empires 2: Expansion Pack, ooh, in which you can battle against Empress Matilda. But who was the real life Matilda? How did a family squabble turn into a full blown civil war? Let's find out. Right, Dr Gabby, when was Matilda born? You know, where are we

• 4:15Greg Jenner?

  in history? And are we talking royal baby?

• 4:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we're talking about England to start off with, though France will jump into the scene on quite a few occasions.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  They always do.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, but Matilda's born around February 1102. She is the daughter of Henry the First, King of England, who was the youngest son of William the Conqueror, also known by another name that's not radio for friendly, so we'll keep it at that for the moment. And her mother was Matilda of Scotland, and Matilda of Scotland is descendant of Alfred the Great, so this gives some legitimacy.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  She's like, she's royalty.

• 4:50Speaker 04

  We don't know loads unfortunately about her upbringing, so royal girls are often raised in nunnaries and sometimes they're at court with their mothers, if they're at court with their mothers and they're travelling around, you know, we know that she goes to Exeter, she's in Norwich, Windsor, Canterbury, so she does move round of the court quite a bit. Now, her mum, Matilda of Scotland, she is very cultured, she's very pious, so she wants to pass that on to her daughter. But Matilda of Scotland is also very keen on exercising power, so we can see her with a good amount of political authority, again, something Junie Matilda's gonna pick up on.

• 5:26Greg Jenner?

  And we say travel about, you know, you mentioned Exeter and it's sort of sunny climes, you know, sweltering Exeter. But she went considerably further at a young age, do you want to guess where, Carriead?

• 5:36Speaker 03

  France.

• 5:37Greg Jenner?

  Further than France.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Oh, maybe, Germany.

• 5:40Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 5:42Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  All the way to Germany.

• 5:44Greg Jenner?

  All the way to Germany.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  So she went to the school exchange for the Germany, because the French one was full.

• 5:47Greg Jenner?

  Well, it wasn't the school exchange programme, Carriead.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  Oh, it was to meet a man to marry.

• 5:51Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  It was marriage exchange.

• 5:53Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  But you know what, Greg, they look down on that in schools these days.

• 5:55Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, yeah, um, often on this show I have to sort of honk my problematic marriage klaxon. How old are we talking here, Gabby?

• 6:04Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, how old?

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Eight.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Oh. Now, look, I've heard some low numbers before on this programme, but that is low. Medieval. What is wrong with you?

• 6:14Speaker 04

  Officially engaged at the age of eight, I will raise that.

• 6:17Greg Jenner?

  That's fine, that's fine then, yeah, no.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  I mean, the marriage is delayed for a few years because even then they realise that that's quite young to be being married.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  But they would like say it like, this is gonna happen, we're just making sure everyone, we've signed the contracts.

• 6:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  You can see what you're buying, but they're not gonna actually get married for a while.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm making it sound like it's reasonable.

• 6:37Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, but she does go out there at eight, right?

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 6:40Greg Jenner?

  To Germany, so her father is a arranger, her father is Henry.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:43Greg Jenner?

  And she's betrothed to who?

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Henry.

• 6:45Greg Jenner?

  Oh, another one.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  Can't call him Heinrich or something like, he's also Henry the fifth.

• 6:51Greg Jenner?

  Heinrich, yeah.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh Heinrich the fifth.

• 6:53Speaker 04

  Yep, Heinrich.

• 6:54Greg Jenner?

  And he is what?

• 6:55Speaker 04

  And he is king of the Romans. So Germany at this time, also you go by the title of king of the Romans. So it can be king of Germany, king of the Romans, because most of the rulers become Holy Roman Emperor as well. Which is what happens to Henry. And Matilda is also crowned, even before she's married. She's crowned Queen of the Romans at Meins on the 25th of July, 1110. So.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  They give her a party.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, so she's, yeah, she gets the crown, she gets the party before she even gets married. So that's not a bad deal for an eight year old.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  Well, it is.

• 7:30Greg Jenner?

  I mean, it's a, I mean.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  It's a terrible deal, but they do give her a party. And look, everyone wants to call in the caterpillar cake. Other cakes are available. Um, but it's still not ideal if she's gonna have to marry.

• 7:42Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Das Henry Funf.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  Yes, she does become queen very young, but she gets so much experience while she's in Germany. She's trained to rule from a young age, which puts her in good stead for the future.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  Henry and Matilda are married in 1114, just before she turns 12.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Wow, sweetie.

• 8:00Greg Jenner?

  They can't even wait till she's 12.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the problematic marriage klaxon can still.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  Continue, yeah. Well, if you engage at eight, it's a long time before that klaxon is gonna stop ringing, isn't it?

• 8:10Greg Jenner?

  I need new batteries for the klaxon.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're gonna.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  Matilda is finally crowned Holy Roman Empress, Imperatrix Romanorum, in 1117. So they're crowned not by the Pope, by the Archbishop of Brega. And therefore this isn't quite a legitimate ceremony either. But Matilda takes this on fully and is like, well, no, I'm empress now. That's gonna be my title. That's what I'm gonna use.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  But she's like 12 at this point, like 14 or something?

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Uh.

• 8:36Greg Jenner?

  She's probably like 15, I think, at this point. She's suddenly demoted in 1125.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  Oh, what? What happened to her?

• 8:43Greg Jenner?

  You know, she's been ruling Italy, she's the empress, and then suddenly, nope.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Because Henry the fifth dies, Heinrich passes away.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Das Henry Funf is dead. Caput.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  He goes kaput.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Henry fifth, oh no. So he just dies, but she's left unprotected?

• 9:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, because she's 23, she's a widow, they have no children.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  They've got no kids.

• 9:04Speaker 04

  But she decides to go back to England in 1126, and she does not go back alone. She decides to take back some of the jewels with her. So she takes two of Henry's crowns.

• 9:16Greg Jenner?

  There's another reason that she's needed back home. Her dad, King Henry.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  King Henry the second.

• 9:21Greg Jenner?

  He's lost his heir. I mean, it's a huge dynastic catastrophe.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  So November 1120, the English royal court's been in France because they possess Normandy at this point. So they've got control over both of those areas. Now, Henry and his son William are meant to be sailing back on separate ships. William on the white ship, which was captained by Thomas Fitzstephen. And his father had captained the ship that actually brought William the Conqueror over in the first place.

• 9:46Greg Jenner?

  Oh, so it's a nepo hire.

• 9:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Now, as is typical, dad sets off first, but William and the nobles decide to have a bit of a party before they get on the ship. And Fitzstephen claimed that despite the delay caused by their drinking, that he would still be able to race past and overtake Henry's ship. So the sailors leave at night and go into a stretch of water that's filled with submerged rocks. So, yes, the rock rips a hole, ship sinks, and all but one of the 300 passengers die, which is a butcher from Rouen.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  So we only have one butcher's word. Let me tell you, it was not me, they were all so drunk. So you didn't drink. No, no, no, no, no, I did not, I was not the one who bought the booze.

• 10:37Greg Jenner?

  So Matilda returning to England, kind of handy because suddenly here's an heir.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:42Greg Jenner?

  But a woman, so.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  How do they feel about that?

• 10:44Speaker 04

  Not unknown for women to rule in Europe at this point.

• 10:48Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  But they've not had it in England before, certainly not in the Kingdom of England. Henry decides to get married again, just in case, but he does make plans. So he does ask the bishops and magnates of England to swear oaths three times to acknowledge Matilda as queen if he dies.

• 11:06Greg Jenner?

  Henry's not done with the marrying yet, is he?

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Of course, well, she's only young, right?

• 11:10Greg Jenner?

  She's 24.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  24, but 4 and 20, as Jane Ralston would say. She's almost a spinster, but not quite.

• 11:17Greg Jenner?

  So he marries her off again.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 11:19Greg Jenner?

  Again, inappropriate aged husband.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Oh, what is he, like 80 or something?

• 11:24Greg Jenner?

  Other way around.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Oh, no, he's like seven.

• 11:26Greg Jenner?

  He's a teenager, so she's the cougar this time. She's, how old's the new hubby?

• 11:31Speaker 04

  So Geoffrey's only 15 when he gets married to Matilda.

• 11:35Greg Jenner?

  And the aged gap there is what?

• 11:37Speaker 04

  11 years. So, you know, we're getting into another problematic marriage class in there.

• 11:42Greg Jenner?

  She's not impressed, right?

• 11:44Speaker 04

  No, she's not, because again.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Who's Geoffrey? Not of Mammoth, that's the only Geoffrey I know, guys.

• 11:48Greg Jenner?

  That's a good medieval name.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 11:50Greg Jenner?

  Now, this is Geoffrey Plantagenet, right?

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Oh, Plantagenet, I knew that.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  So he is Count of Anjou, so Anjou's a central county in France at this point. But yeah, Matilda's not happy. He's socially inferior because he's only a count. Remember, she's just been married to the Holy Roman Emperor, so she's got a teenager and a count. It's quite a big step that up.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  A bit embarrassing.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 03

  And does he just come over to England and just is living with her?

• 12:14Speaker 04

  No, she goes over to Anjou.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  I see, so she has to go and live there.

• 12:18Greg Jenner?

  Poor Matilda, so far, has gone from child bride to unwilling babysitter of her own teenage husband. And she has a baby, and that's healthy, second child, but it's very dangerous.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  Yes, she does think she's going to die. She makes all her funeral arrangements and everything and, you know, sorts out a will effectively, because, yeah, she thinks this pregnancy is going to have killed her. But son number one is another Henry.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Sure, why not? It ain't broke, don't fix it. Only the second.

• 12:46Speaker 04

  Yep, son number two, the problematic one, is Geoffrey, and they go on to have a third son, William, as well. So that's it. Three beautiful, healthy boys, but yeah, pregnancy number two is problematic.

• 12:58Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so dad so far has been ruling her love life. He's married her off twice. But crucially, in 1135, meddling dad passes away in 1135. The King of England is dead, and all those oaths have been sworn. Three oaths, a triple lock.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  And you know how reliable bishops are in history. If they agree something, those bishops never let you down.

• 13:19Greg Jenner?

  So the next ruler of England, Carrie, is?

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Well, I imagine they're trying to stop it being Matilda.

• 13:24Greg Jenner?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Do they want it to go to her son? Are they trying to do it that way?

• 13:27Greg Jenner?

  I mean, that would, that would make more sense, but no.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  They just bring in some random. They always bring in some random. Who is it?

• 13:34Greg Jenner?

  Do you want to talk us through it, Debbie?

• 13:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Matilda is literally beaten to the throne by her cousin Stephen.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Oh, Stephen.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  Steve, shall we call him Steve first?

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Stephen, I've heard of Stephen.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Stephen of Blois. He is crowned on the 22nd of December. So Henry dies on the 1st of December. Stephen is crowned on the 22nd. So literally.

• 13:54Greg Jenner?

  That is a quick party arrangement.

• 13:56Speaker 03

  It's even like the same age as her. You know, they have a cousin a similar age and the families are like, well, Stephen got five A stars in his GCSEs, Matilda. So Stephen's going to Oxford. Like, Stephen's actually become King of England.

• 14:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Poor Matilda.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  I mean, it does help, talking of meddling bishops, Stephen's brother is the Bishop of Winchester, which is a big.

• 14:15Greg Jenner?

  Very handy.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  But Matilda, when we're talking about pregnancies, she has concerns with this third pregnancy. And perhaps doesn't travel quite as quickly due to the risk.

• 14:25Greg Jenner?

  So we have the double whammy here of brotherly nepotism and a man taking a woman's job while she's on maternity leave. It's the absolute 21st century. Something's never changed, right?

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Oh, something's never changed. Poor Matilda.

• 14:37Greg Jenner?

  Poor Matilda. So, okay, let's hear about Stevie B, the throne thief. That's his hip hop name. King Stephen, Stephen of Blois. Who is he?

• 14:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  So he's about 10 years older than Matilda.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Oh, even worse, yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, depending if we go over the 1092 birthday. He is the third son of King Henry I's sister Adela.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Oh, Adela, okay.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  The family relationship there. He's a favourite of Henry I. He grows up in the English court. Because his mum sent him there thinking it'd be more, you know, sophisticated than Elan. So he's well known by the nobles, which puts him in good stead. When he does nip, nip across the channel.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  He's been hanging out with the lads in the men's clubs. Yeah, I get you, I get you.

• 15:19Greg Jenner?

  And he's married to?

• 15:21Speaker 03

  Matilda.

• 15:22Greg Jenner?

  Yes, he is.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, heiress to the county of Boulogne.

• 15:25Greg Jenner?

  So Stephen is the king. Matilda gives birth, survives the childbirth thankfully.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  To William, yeah.

• 15:30Greg Jenner?

  And, and now she looks across the channel and goes, hang on a second, that's my throne.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  That's mine. Should have been me. Yeah, okay.

• 15:37Greg Jenner?

  So what does she do next?

• 15:38Speaker 03

  She sails over with an army and says, that is my bloody throne.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  I know. Get out of my throne, Stephen.

• 15:46Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I, I think it's time now for the anarchy. So would we call this a civil war?

• 15:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think 12th century civil war, the less known of the civil wars in England.

• 15:54Greg Jenner?

  Sure, yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  Perhaps. But Matilda, you know, she spent that time in Normandy. They focused on taking that first, think that's the way forward. But as we say, we get to around 1138, 1139, she's like, hang on, now I need to focus on taking England.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  Several of the English barons, including her half-brother, Robert of Gloucester, who comes in very handy, renounce their oath to Stephen. Matilda's uncle, David, the king of Scotland, also causes problem up in the north. 1139, she does apply for the pope to try and support her claim, but he's not interested. He doesn't reply to her letters.

• 16:28Greg Jenner?

  How do you apply to the pope? You just fill in a form?

• 16:30Speaker 03

  It really sounded like she applied for a job.

• 16:32Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Yep, but no luck there. But she decides to sail for England anyway in September 1139. Unfortunately, her stepmother, Adelisa, who's at Arundel, says, oh, come here, I'll support you.

• 16:45Greg Jenner?

  Arundel's a very lovely town. Very, very nice day out.

• 16:48Speaker 03

  Got a great castle.

• 16:49Greg Jenner?

  Lovely castle, lovely antique shops, good cafes.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've been to the castle, so.

• 16:53Greg Jenner?

  So Gabby, talk us through the war then, this, this brutal anarchy, this civil war.

• 16:57Speaker 04

  So, once Matilda's got to Arundel, enjoyed the castle, had a few scenic walks, makes her way over to Bristol, off to the west country, because her half-brother, Robert, Duke of Gloucester's there.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 04

  So he's got people on side for her. So they decide to start battling. This civil war actually doesn't get off to a great start. They hit a stalemate pretty quickly because the barons are interested in bits of land as opposed to actually who's on the throne.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Barons always are interested in a bit of land. People should just come with land and then give that to the barons if they want to get the throne.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:29Greg Jenner?

  There are very few positive barons in history.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  There's very few.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  This kind of carries on for about two years. Then February eleven forty one, have a breakthrough. Battle of Lincoln.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  Stephen is captured.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  So Matilda has Stephen in chains.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Oh my goodness.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  And he's imprisoned at Bristol Castle.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 17:47Greg Jenner?

  And she now is the queen, yes? Yes?

• 17:50Speaker 03

  No, the barons don't back it, right?

• 17:52Greg Jenner?

  Come on!

• 17:52Speaker 04

  Nope, nope, absolutely. She's not there yet. So we have this little period where she is arranging to get herself crowned in London, in Westminster, of course. So she starts minting some coins, has Lady of the English stamped on the coins, as like a precursor to becoming queen. And she proceeds to London to be crowned, but the Londoners reject her.

• 18:15Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 18:16Speaker 04

  They will not let her in.

• 18:18Greg Jenner?

  But Cariad told me at the beginning of the episode that she was very popular.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've obviously remembered that completely incorrectly, that when, I'm sure I remember him saying that she was a, like, that Stephen was not as popular and the people cheered Matilda.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  Queen Matilda, Stephen's wife, is popular.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Oh, maybe I'm into Matilda!

• 18:36Greg Jenner?

  It's the other Matilda.

• 18:38Speaker 04

  So that may be where Actroyd's coming from.

• 18:41Greg Jenner?

  It's very easy to mix the Matildas.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  Empress Matilda's also made a few poor political choices, so she won't give London a special privileges that they've always held. She's trying to get money from them. They're just like, you're not coming in, love.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Don't annoy the Londoners, mate. Don't annoy them.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we, you know, we've seen that she's had all this political skill, but it just doesn't pay off here.

• 19:02Greg Jenner?

  It must have been a humiliating moment, right? The rightful queen who has won militarily, who has captured the, you know, the rightful.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, she should, by right.

• 19:09Greg Jenner?

  She should, by right.

• 19:10Speaker 03

  Sail into Westminster.

• 19:11Greg Jenner?

  And yet the people of London are like, get out, love, you know, you're not around it. And, and, and she just goes home?

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, what happens?

• 19:18Speaker 04

  No, so she flees back to the west country and, you know, where she's safe and, you know, tries to negotiate with Matilda. So we've got the Battle of the Matildas now going on because Stephen's still imprisoned. So we have the siege of Winchester in September eleven forty one. But Empress Matilda doesn't come out of this very well either. She's forced to flee when Queen Matilda rocks up with her armies yet again.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  Wow, this Queen Matilda is like hot in her heels, isn't she? Of like powerful woman and using her political strength.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, and unfortunately Winchester goes very badly because Robert of Gloucester, Empress Matilda's half brother, is captured.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  So now we have the negotiations of Matilda being like, give me back Stephen, Matilda, give me back Robert, Stephen, Robert, Stephen, Robert, and.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  Get out of the pub. This is like Pat and Peggy all over again.

• 20:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  Very equally matched, different sides of the square, but basically the same person. She swapped Stephen for Jacob Gloucester.

• 20:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, and Stephen is released and then goes back on the throne.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, straight back on that throne.

• 20:25Greg Jenner?

  And then we get an even bigger disaster, Gabby, the Battle of Oxford.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Yep, so this is eleven forty two. So Empress Matilda is again forced to flee, and this is really her last rallying cry in terms of what she gets up to at this moment in time. Stephen besieges the city, they are sieged for three months, and eventually she is forced to escape. She escapes wearing a white cloak to disguise her amongst the snow as she sneaks out of the gate.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  Wow, that's Game of Thrones.

• 20:55Greg Jenner?

  It's sort of, it's kind of camouflage, right? It's all sneaky, sneaky. So she sneaks out the back door, hides in the snow, rides the safety. So she's not captured.

• 21:04Speaker 03

  Does she go back to Europe at this point?

• 21:05Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, in the movie, escaping in the snow, that would be the beginning of the comeback, right?

• 21:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:10Greg Jenner?

  But in terms of the history books.

• 21:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, unfortunately not. So she does try to rally a couple more times, but she's almost, she's lost her.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, she lost it, babes. It's gone. The moment's gone.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I mean, Stephen's had himself crowned for a second time to reassert his authority, rarely sought in the mood.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Not king once, but king twice, Londoners. Let me hear you. Yeah, exactly.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  Yep. If you remember her older son, Henry.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  So he does try and invade in eleven forty seven.

• 21:40Greg Jenner?

  In the name of his mum?

• 21:41Speaker 04

  In the name of his mum.

• 21:42Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's so adorable.

• 21:43Speaker 04

  But he does this without any money, without Matilda's knowledge.

• 21:47Greg Jenner?

  That's classic teenager, isn't it?

• 21:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, and then he comes back two years later, eleven forty nine. And that's a failure as well because the attack pretty much disintegrates as soon as he lands. So he doesn't have the best of luck. Matilda transfers her claim over to him and he does these little harrys over the next few years. But it doesn't really get anywhere.

• 22:08Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 22:08Speaker 04

  Until.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, because he is, he, he becomes Henry the second at some point and he's the start of the Plantagenets, right? So yeah, when does he?

• 22:17Speaker 04

  So Stephen and Henry make the treaty of Winchester, agree that Henry will give advice to Stephen whilst he's still ruling.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  On how to rule. Henry is named as heir.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  This is mad because her heir then becomes king anyway. So Stephen basically just wanted, he just wanted the throne for a bit.

• 22:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  He wasn't bothered about his.

• 22:36Speaker 04

  Dynasty.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, his dynasty starting. It was just like, no, I just want to go at this job.

• 22:40Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  But then I'm gonna give it to your son.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  He just didn't want Matilda to have it.

• 22:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:44Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, well, that's interesting, isn't it, right? Is, is there something to that? Is Cariad right? It just doesn't want a woman on the throne.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that is potentially part of it in terms of, you know, Matilda goes over what we, what you expect to see of women at this point. We don't expect to see a woman ruling in England. But there is the slight issue as well. They don't like Geoffrey of Montju, they don't like Matilda's husband. They're worried about foreign influence. If, um, she becomes queen, like, what's his rule gonna be? Is she gonna like rule in her own right?

• 23:15Speaker 03

  Bypass that.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  But then they install his son, who must be.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, of the same lineage.

• 23:21Greg Jenner?

  But he's still a man, Cariad.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  He's a man, he's a man.

• 23:24Speaker 04

  And that's much more acceptable to them.

• 23:27Greg Jenner?

  King Stephen died in October eleven fifty four. Henry the second becomes the king, so Matilda's son on the throne.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:34Greg Jenner?

  And Matilda gets to be what, queen mum?

• 23:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, she is a bit of a.

• 23:39Greg Jenner?

  Is she sort of the Kris Jenner here? Is she kind of a mumager?

• 23:42Speaker 04

  I mean, she's got three sons to try and keep in line a bit. And yeah, absolutely. She rises from the ashes and is really involved. So she looks after Normandy pretty much full time. We've got letters from the time that showed that she was very politically astute. She does get involved. She's very well respected. So for example, Henry decides to try and invade Ireland in eleven fifty five and Matilda warns him against it. And then that doesn't go ahead at that moment in time. He does try later after she's died, but she still brings all her experience to the fore.

• 24:12Greg Jenner?

  So Matilda dies in, in what, eleven sixty seven? And she's about sixty five.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  Wow, she does well.

• 24:17Greg Jenner?

  And she dies in Rouen in Normandy.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, and she's buried at the Abbey of Bec, which is somewhere where she spent a lot of her life. It was where she gave birth to her second son. And it's a place that's really important to her. So Normandy is her life, really. But I think she's content with that because it's somewhere she still has power.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, she does end up in power.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  But not as high as maybe she would have hoped for.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, and Geoffrey's long dead by this point as well, her husband Geoffrey. So she kind of just go, go to her own.

• 24:50Speaker 03

  And Henry the Second is the first Plantagenet king, is that right? So she starts a dynasty.

• 24:54Greg Jenner?

  She does, yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:55Greg Jenner?

  And a really good dynasty in terms of the name of the mission.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, the Plantagenants.

• 25:00Greg Jenner?

  All the way up to Richard the Third, yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:02Greg Jenner?

  The Nuance Window!

• 25:08Greg Jenner?

  Okay, time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Carrie Ed and I quietly try to remember all the five Matildas and three Henrys that we've mentioned, while Dr Gabby takes to the battlefield to tell us something that we need to know about Empress Matilda and medieval queenship. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Gabby.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  So I want to talk about medieval queens as co-rulers because I think there's this idea that medieval queens are just there to give birth to children and that's it. And maybe they're quite pious, maybe they focus on what we call soft power. But actually, these are women who can rule in their own right, so to speak. They are very powerful. They can share power with the king. And Matilda does this really well with Geoffrey in terms of sharing power and sharing her rights. They work very well together as a couple. But going beyond Matilda, we see this again fantastically with Eleanor of Aquitaine. She brings her power from Aquitaine as Duchess and shares that with Henry.

• 26:06Speaker 04

  So I think we need to move beyond the idea that it's always the king that's giving and sharing power. It's women who can actually bring a lot to the marriage, bring a lot to rulership through a different set of skills, whether that's diplomacy and soft skills, patronage, mediating with the bishops when they're being a bit naughty. Women are very capable of exercising power. They do do it on a regular basis and it's not just agency. It's not just something that's soft. Directly with Matilda, we don't see her leading an army at the front of it. But we do see women leading armies in this period as well. So I think there's much more to be said about queens being able to actually directly rule. Not all power is vested in one man.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  It's shared with his mum, in the case of Matilda. It's shared with his wife, it can be shared with his daughters or, you know, sometimes with other men. But, you know, with governors and regents and so forth as well. So I think there's a lot more to medieval queens than maybe we think. They're not just there to give birth to children and they do quite well.

• 27:12Greg Jenner?

  Thank you so much Gabby, fascinating.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, amazing, absolutely amazing.

• 27:16Greg Jenner?

  Listener, if you want more medieval queens with Dr Gabby, you can check out our episode on Eleanor Aquitaine, featuring Carriad's ostentatious castmate, Rachel Paris. For more Carriad, obviously we've got lots of episodes with you, but Agrippina the Younger and Mary Wollstonecraft are two of my faves. And for more argumentative English royals, there's always our episode on the causes of the British Civil Wars, which we've now discovered is the second English Civil War. But that's very confusing, so we'll just pretend, let's call it the Anarchy is a whole other thing. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the fantastic Dr Gabrielle Story, thank you Gabby.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Thank you, great in Carriad, well done for not throwing any chairs around.

• 27:52Greg Jenner?

  It was a very placid anarchy today, wasn't it? We were very calm. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever brilliant Cariad Lloyd. Thank you Cariad.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  Au revoir mon sirre, as they would have said.

• 28:02Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I mean, now's not the time to point out that 12th century French was actually a bit more Viking sounding. It was much more harsh Norman.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Oké, madame.

• 28:09Greg Jenner?

  The Caesar K's in Norman French.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  This can knife is sharp.

• 28:12Greg Jenner?

  Yes. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we consider both sides of another historical argument and then settle it with a compromise. But for now, I'm off to lock up my cousin before he tries to snatch the podcast from me. It's mine, all mine. Bye.

• 28:29Greg Jenner?

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